Ghost in the Machine: Man Sues Over Possessed Tesla Model X

Do forgive me if I don't agree with you, WR; I personally believe that the BEV is eminently the better platform for all purposes, though it is only in its infancy at the moment. The relative simplicity of the BEV makes it the more reliable in the long run as you don't have all those engine systems that can fail due to water in the fuel, overheating, cracked cylinder walls, blown gaskets, etc. Personally, I was born too soon because I really do want a BEV and find it unlikely that I'll ever own one.

>> Any electric car is fraught with trouble and the Tesla is a black hole for your money from the second you transact the deal to buy it. That's total bullshit. You have no idea what you're talking about. Rather than living life through google searches, I've been doing a hard-core heavy traffic long distance 100-mile round trip commute in an EV and haven't had a problem. The only maintenance is tire rotation, wipers, and washer fluid. No wasting time with oil changes or having to stand around in the heat and cold pumping gas into the thing. I've got a near state-of-the-art battery (through connections) that even after 30k miles is capable of 100% capacity and shows 100% health via diagnostics. Friday, it made the drive in 82-degree heat and the battery was still cool. I even managed over 5.0 miles per kilowatt hour on the trip. What you've read about EVs in the past does not apply to the vehicle I'm driving. I'd like to see what a 100 mile round trip with much of it in heavy stop and go traffic around Boston does to your pretty little pickup and what it would cost you. I know from personal experience what that drive does to an ICE car. I get it, an EV isn't for everyone. However, not every electric car is fraught with trouble and you absolutely do not know what you're talking about. I doubt you've ever spent time driving one.

@Vulpine I just don't know of any electric cars that are not plagued with unusual problems. As for the "better platform for all purposes," lets make a run from Los Angeles to New York. I'll drive my old Town Car and you drive a Tesla. We'll see how long it takes you. I can do it in 40 hours. Assuming you bought the Supercharger option, I'll be there most of a day before you arrive. If you didn't then you have to hook to a 220v connection and charge for an hour for every 22 miles you want to drive. A full charge? 14 or 15 hours? Now, if you want to take your Tesla on a scenic tour of the US, you're not going to run into those Supercharger stations. You best have all the time in the world on your hands. Then there's battery replacement costs. $29K at present for a Model S battery. How long will a Tesla battery last before you have to replace it? Even Tesla can't seem to answer that. A lot of factors to consider, they say. One thing they definitely do NOT recommend: Repeated usage of their Supercharger stations. Bad for the battery. Only do that on long trips. So this is definitely not the "better platform for all purposes" and I can't imagine that it ever will be.

>> I just don’t know of any electric cars that are not plagued with unusual problems. You have no actual experience with an EV. What is an unusual problem? I've only had windshield wiper, wiper fluid, and tire rotation. No battery degradation in 30k miles. >> Los Angeles to New York. I’ll drive my old Town Car and you drive a Tesla. We’ll see how long it takes you. I can do it in 40 hours. I do it all the time, but in less than 6 hours in a plane. Go ahead and waste your time. >> Now, if you want to take your Tesla on a scenic tour of the US, you’re not going to run into those Supercharger stations. Plenty of superchargers around the country. Plenty of people have taken long trips in Teslas. Do you base your vehicle purchases on its ability to make some idiotic 40-hour dash across the country.

On that California to New York trip, electric vehicles have been making that run for over 80 years... admittedly with a big diesel engine to supply the power. Even then it's not a matter of how fast you make the trip, but how smoothly. When speaking of just the cars, it's more in how you drive them, not in how fast you drive. To me a 2500-3000 mile journey is not one to try and make non-stop. The average driver takes no less than three days, requiring 8-10 hours each day for food and rest. A Tesla can do almost as well as it sits because those food and rest stops would come about every four hours. In fact, the trip has been made both ways by Tesla drivers with a co-driver in just over 55 hours, or about 3.5 days...of all things going the posted speed limits over most of that route. For the average driver, that's not too shabby. Electrics offer a number of advantages over ICE, though I acknowledge that unrecharged range is not one of them. Still, the Model S90 comes pretty close when you realize that driven sensibly you can get over 300 miles on a charge and 'hypermiling' can get you over 600 miles (it's been done in Europe.) The biggest advantage is the instantaneous torque. Both ICE and BEV burn more energy accelerating to speed as compared to maintaining speed but the BEV uses less than the ICE due to the simple fact that the ICE has to spool up to 2000rpm or more to achieve enough torque for decent acceleration. Moreover, a V6 or smaller ICE needs about 2000 rpm to maintain speed in a truck (though you can probably get away with lower revs in a more aerodynamic sedan. An i4 still runs that 2000+ (personal experience across the board) Even a '96 V6 Camaro could achieve 32mpg on the freeway--again, driven sensibly. But gasoline costs money. Currently it costs roughly 3x as much as electricity and when using Tesla's Superchargers it costs infinitely more than electricity because Supercharger use is free. But there's more. Railroads have proven that electrics are more efficient than straight ICEVs. Look up the history of a tug-of-war between an electric locomotive and one of the most powerful steam locomotives of the day. Ever hear of a boxcar getting torn in two before? That electric torque is ideal for pulling heavy loads. A BEV tractor-trailer truck would easily be able to handle mountain grades without being slowed as severely as the current ICE versions. The reason they're sticking with Diesel for now is the fact that they can get 500 miles or more out of the 100 gallons they carry. But at what cost? Today it runs nearly $300 cash to fuel up for the next stretch; it wasn't all that long ago they were spending $450... nearly $1/mile just for fuel. Railroads now boast 400 ton-miles per gallon, six times the economy of an 18-wheeler. If the weight of those big diesel engines could be replaced by an equivalent weight of batteries, the range might fall a bit, but the power and economy would be greater. Railroads also use something called "regenerative braking" to control the speed of the train on downgrades. Due to their lack of batteries, all that power is literally burned off through coils in the roof cooled by massive fans. Imagine how much charge you could return to the batteries, instead. And yes, railroads are experimenting with "hybrid" locomotives that use a smaller engine supplemented with batteries. I admit I'm unaware of how well that experiment is going, but I have heard of additional orders for that type of locomotive. Electric IS an advantage.

"I don't know of any electric cars that are not plagued by unusual problems." What is an unusual problem in Arkansas, Whiskey River? You don't know where the spark plugs are? You can't find the drain hole for the motor oil? You can't hear the engine when it fires up? The radiator never overheats? So unusual!

WhiskeyRiver: >>>As for the “better platform for all purposes,” lets make a run from Los Angeles to New York. I’ll drive my old Town Car and you drive a Tesla. We’ll see how long it takes you. +10 @Vulpine I hope they solve the range/recharging time/cost problems for electrics so that gasoline prices don't skyrocket. But when I take a road trip, I don't want to have to do the type of planning one would currently have to do to take even a leisurely cross-country trip. which would be extensive, since superchargers are scarce. I like to get off the beaten track. That won't be possible with BEVs for a number of years.

@Vulpine The supercharger is not free you have to pay up front for the ability and the last I heard that was $2000. That buys a lot of fast charges for a Leaf at the pay fast chargers.

@Scoutdude "The supercharger is not free you have to pay up front for the ability and the last I heard that was $2000. That buys a lot of fast charges for a Leaf at the pay fast chargers." Which is easier, paying for your fuel in advance when you know the price is cheaper, or paying for it as needed when the price may be 3, 4, 5x more expensive? Electricity from the wall averages around 12¢ per kWh in the US. That takes the Tesla about three miles based on reported readings by owners. A 200-mile recharge thus costs about US$5. For comparison, a similarly-sized ICE uses about 7 gallons of gas which at current rates would run about $20 or just shy of 3x as expensive to drive not even counting scheduled maintenance. Add to this the fact that it's not money out of your pocket on that long vacation trip or during that business trip to the next city (even with expense accounts, it's money out of pocket first) and the economic benefits begin to be felt. We can not assume gasoline prices will remain where they've been for the last 18 months. Additionally, that Supercharger access is becoming a standard feature on all newer versions of the Tesla, meaning the $2K or so is being folded into the price of the car... at least for now. So why not take advantage when you're on a trip? That $2K is expected to cover the life of the car and can be forwarded to the next owner if you choose to sell the vehicle before it wears out. The cost, therefore, gets balanced not only by a reduction in out-of-pocket costs but as an increase to its trade-in/resale value as well. Oh, those fast chargers for the Leaf, etc...? Based on what I've seen so far, their fees for recharge come out equivalent to the same number of miles in gasoline... not saving you one penny for using electric on the road.

@Vulpine At least one factor makes the IC-Electric combo worthwhile on the railroad: To the extent involved, weight of the prime mover + weight of the motors contributes to tractive effort on a wheel-roadbed combo for which that weight poses little problem. I looked into the idea of IC-electric a couple of decades ago regarding other large self-propelled vehicles that could also benefit from the full-torque-from-start and benefits of running the ICE at a constant maximally efficient RPM, Ag equipment. Soil compaction from weight is a real problem. I'd guess the same is probably true of a usefully powered OTR truck on current asphalt/concrete roadbeds. Of course the original Porsche was an IC-Electric hybrid but with horrible unsprung weight problems.

You spend a lot of time attacking Tesla. Sorry that the future is so frightening for you.

@VoGo Assuming statement of facts is an attack.

"There’s exactly ZERO Superchargers in Arkansas, my home state. There are no Superchargers in Memphis. There is one Supercharger in Oklahoma City. You cannot drive a Tesla from Memphis to Oklahoma City (465 miles) without losing a day. I can drive it in 6 hours in my car." While I will agree that As Of Today, what you say is true, that may not be true and almost certainly WILL not be true by the end of this year as Arkansas is expected to see some four Supercharger locations installed, at least two specifically on the freeway between Memphis and Oklahoma City. Suddenly that 465-mile gap will be closed with even the S-70 able to cross the state without issue. And if you're driving 465 miles in 6 hours, you're pushing the speed limit pretty hard. Average speed 77.5mph and I'm betting the speed limit is only 70, as it is in most other states (admittedly not all.) You'd be tempting a ticket driving at that speed, especially since that doesn't cover fuel stops and there aren't all that many cars than can achieve 500 miles on a single tank... especially at that speed. Even a single stop for fuel will cost you about 15 minutes and drive your cruising speed up over 80.

I frequently drive from Boston to DC via Quakertown PA, where I have friends and a favorite restaurant bar that's been going under various management since 1750. Couldn't do it in a Tesla.

@David C. Holzman Ok EV fans. Let's deal with another factoid. In the United States, much of the country's electrical grid will exceed exceed 90% of capacity at times this summer. Some areas will be closer to 95%. If those vehicles become prevalent they can have all the Supercharger station they want but you won't be able to use them all if the electrical grid fails. There's going to have to be a lot of new electrical infrastructure installed before these cars can be taken seriously as a mainstream conveyance. In the current economic climate I don't see that happening anytime soon. At any rate, the first paragraph of posted article starts with "Bad PR from customers annoyed by their problem-plagued Tesla Model X SUVs." And it's an accurate enough statement no matter which model and brand EV you want to pin it to.

@david - I frequently drive from Boston to DC via Quakertown PA Why not? There's a SuperCharger in Allenstown. Let's see, Lexington to the Newburgh NY supercharger is 195 miles. Newburgh SuperCharger to Allenstown SuperCharger is 136 miles. From Quakertown to Newark DE Supercharger. I noticed that are some J1772 Level 2 spots in Quakertown where if one is close enough, you could top up while visiting. Personally, I'd probably hit some of the intermediate SCs for email/bathroom breaks and pick up some quick splashes of power. That would reduce charging time in Newburgh. Then again, the cost of the Tesla could empty your bank account to the point you could no longer afford the restaurant! In that case, I guess you are right! :^) I've been making trips to Woodstock VT from Andover MA in my 100+ mile range Leaf, so Boston to DC via Quakertown in a Tesla looks pretty easy.

>> Ok EV fans. Let’s deal with another factoid. Cheap room air conditioners are probably having a bigger impact than EVs. In Massachusetts, the Solar power companies are running rampant over the rooftops of the Commonwealth. Local municipalities converting their street lighting from mercury vapor to LED is providing another reduction (my little town will save over $5,000 per year). My favored charging location in Kingston MA on the way to Cape Cod has massive windmills next to it. My new kitchen with three convection ovens and my massive home HVAC system suck much more power than my little EV.

@David C. Holzman You sure about that, David? I'm thinking you would be quite surprised by the number of Supercharger locations between Boston and DC, including Pennsylvania.