By on May 3, 2021

Can the Toyota Tundra go toe-to-toe with the Ford F-150, and does it make sense to try? The F-150 is the most popular vehicle in the U.S., despite a 12 percent drop in sales. Ford still managed to sell 787, 422 F-150s in 2020. Toyota sold a little over 109,000 Tundras in 2020, down two percent from 2019. While that sounds like the Tundra did well, it only outran the Nissan Titan.

For all the Tundra’s reliability and dependability, it didn’t make the top 25 vehicles sold in America in 2020. The F-150 receives updates all the time, while it’s been quite a while since the Tundra hit the refresh button. Why does this make a difference? The Chevrolet Silverado was the second most popular vehicle at 586,675 units. The Ram pickup, with 563,676 sold, was third.

The Tundra is dated. Consumers like new trucks. What does it tell you when the GMC Sierra finishes in the top ten (ninth, with 253,016 sales), and sales went up nine percent in 2020? We may quibble about the front fascia designs or headlight placement, but it does start a conversation.

Comparing the base Tundra to the lowest-level F-150, there’s about a $5,000 difference between them. Yes, you get more standard features on the Tundra than the F-150, but some of them are safety-related, or entertainment upgrades. That’s not going to appeal to someone who wants or needs a basic work truck with as few frills as possible, and that’s another reason why Tundra sales are what they are.

Is it the country of origin? Maybe it is, at least when it comes to pickup trucks. Even though the Titan is assembled in Canton, Mississippi, that’s not the same as being built in the D. Detroit, Motor City. No so for the Toyota RAV4, Honda CR-V, or the Honda Civic, all top picks.

Maybe there’s some hope for the new 2022 Toyota Tundra. This will be its third generation, and Toyota is usually very good at moving in the right direction.

[Image: Toyota]

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57 Comments on “Tundra Versus the F-150 – What’s Wrong with Toyota?...”


  • avatar
    jack4x

    Toyota learned their lesson when they went all out to design this generation of Tundra to be objectively the best truck on the market and basically succeeded. Only to peak at under 200,000 sales.

    The 2007 Tundra forced the domestics to up their game, and they did. The stakes of the truck market are much more existential to them than Toyota, and the amount of investment they pour into their trucks reflects that. Toyota isn’t going to match that kind of investment on a regular basis, so why not continue to sell a vehicle whose development costs are long paid off?

    • 0 avatar
      tomLU86

      All car makers strive to match production to sales.

      If Toyota wanted to sell more trucks, that’s nice. But neither Toyota, nor ANYONE can, in the year 2021 just “turn the knob” and crank out more trucks. Those days, if they ever existed, ended in 1979 (the original Mustang being a classic example–it’s sales were hot, and Ford was able to crank up supply relatively seamlessly).

      Since the Tundra, like the F-150, are North America only products, Toyota would have to add capacity.

      As noted, Toyota makes money on cars. It’s a conservative company. It plays for the long-term. It may not want to fan the flames of resentment from Detroit by eating into the last segment where Detroit actually makes money. Perhaps that explains the exterior appearance of the Tundra (let’s not overdo it with the Americans…).

      Toyota is not a “loud” company–yet they lead in hybrid vehicles. They are very profitable. Lotsa money in the bank too.

  • avatar
    kcflyer

    Ford and GM have abandoned cars. Toyota sells them at a profit. Toyota sells the current Tundra at a profit to loyal customers despite the thirsty yet reliable V8. If the new truck can maintain it’s reliability standards and move near the top in efficiency and power I think it will be a big hit. Toyota can leverage that into a new Sequoia to compete with GM an Fords BOF suvs. It’s a long game but they did the same game and eventually whipped the domestics in the car arena. So I wouldn’t discount the possibility of them eventfully moving into sales parity in the truck segment. I’m not rooting for this scenario but that’s where I’d put my bet.

  • avatar
    wolfwagen

    Jason your 5th paragraph is incoherent. You were talking about the Tundra and suddenly you mention the Nissan Titan? You originally mentioned the Titan in that the Tundra beat it in Sales. The Tundra is built in Texas and was first built in Indiana. What are you trying to say in this paragraph?

    • 0 avatar

      Dear wolfwagen,

      I was inferring in this paragraph that perhaps full-size pickup truck buyers are somewhat nationalistic. Where they are built may be important. The first three vehicles by sales are full-size trucks from the Big Three. Assembled in the U.S. is good, but not good enough? Compare that to the Tacoma, the best-selling midsize truck, or the other Toyotas and Hondas I mentioned. It doesn’t seem to carry over to other segments.

      • 0 avatar
        tonycd

        I agree with you about the flag-waving and brand-loyalty aspect of truck buyers. This is exactly why Toyota built a factory in Texas and publicized the crap out of it expressly for the Tundra, when they had no prior operations there and few other reasons to locate there.

        I recently floated the idea in a TTAC sister site that people are irrational to pass up the superior reliability and durability of Toyota’s trucks for the Big 3, and got furious blowback. I have to admit one argument was legit: It’s been so long since Toyota seriously re-engineered this truck, it’s fallen behind in crash safety as well as more subjective criteria. My suspicion is that Toyota correctly assessed they could corral only so many of the gun-rack types and has limited their outlay. We’ll know more when we see whether the iss just a facelift or a serious update—they’ve proven with the Corolla and Camry that they’re perfectly capable of overhauling the vehicle under the skin IF they think there’s a likely return on the investment.

        • 0 avatar
          MrIcky

          I’m not so sure the ‘superior reliability and durability’ is more believed than real now on Tundra, removal of the transmission cooler, open channel frame at some key points (maybe good for articulation- but frame twist under load). Admittedly a low rear axle ratio- but a 6 speed that struggles at times. While at the same time, it seems that other manufacturers get 200k+ out of their full sized trucks now too. The one lingering exception may have been the lower-end version of the 5.3 (which was discontinued). I just don’t think Tundra has a clear lead on reliability, and if it does have a lead left (probably negligable) it’s only on equipment that is just not up to date.

      • 0 avatar
        Lou_BC

        There are the “patriot” buyers that buy based on the perception of “made in the USA”. I used to frequent a pickup site and if you mentioned that the Tundra was made in the USA but the Ram HD was “Hecho en Mexico” or that they were owned by Germans (DaimlerBenz) or Fiat, they’d loose their sh!t.

        Tundra buyers are now typically individuals burned by a Ram, Ford,or GM lemon.

  • avatar
    indi500fan

    Never understood why Toyota hasn’t dumped the expensive OHC engine, put in a version of their Nascar motor similar to the GM, and saved a ton of money while improving performance and fuel econ. Even Honda the engine masters have gone back to OHV on some of their small OPE engines as has Ford on the 7.3 gasser.

  • avatar
    CaddyDaddy

    It is CaddyDaddy’s belief that Mr. Sakur”ai” is an AI bot. An experiment paid for by TTAC’s owners to see if a software program with poor grammar can turn a manufacturer’s press release into copy. My observation is that he is one of the only authors who does not respond to any questions in his articles. Let’s see if he lives?

  • avatar
    EBFlex

    If the majority of buyers actually used their brains, Ford wouldn’t have the sales numbers they have.

    Their vehicles lack any semblance of quality and it shows. The Toyota has Ford beat in the areas of reliability and price (TFL compared a loaded Tundra to a F150 XL and they had very close MSRPs). Sure Toyota doesn’t have the pencil whipped capability numbers like Ford does but for 99.9999999% of people it’s far more truck than they need. Toyota (and GM and Ram for that matter) don’t need to invest in gimmicks like reclining seats, a folding shifter, or crude bed scales to move metal. They design a quality product that is priced well and has an expected level of quality that meets customer’s needs.

    Also, please point to the Ford supplied data that shows sales numbers of the F150 so we can accurately determine if it is the most popular vehicle in the US. Or, fix your statement so that it accurately reflects that the F150 is one vehicle in a series of vehicles that Ford erroneously claims is the best selling “truck” .

    • 0 avatar
      Scoutdude

      While I agree that it should be referred to as the F-series the fact is that all of the big three’s 1/2 ton trucks have some significant differences vs their trucks of greater capacity. However of the 3 Ram is the worst, their most recent 1/2 ton is such a flop that they continue to offer the old one 3 model years later. Meanwhile their larger truck is also the old one but with a few bits to try and make it more like the new trucks. Yet somehow in your mind it is OK to report the total of all 3 Ram trucks but it is not OK to report the total of Ford’s 2 trucks.

      • 0 avatar
        stuki

        I don’t know what’s the craziest: 109,000 rather expensive vehicles sold in one year, being somehow a reason to “give up” on the whole line. Or Ram’s new halfton being “such a flop”(???), out of all things…..

        Is Pepsi and Burgerking supposed to just close up shop? for being such flops compared to Coke and McDonald’s as well?

        • 0 avatar
          Scoutdude

          Lets see they have 3 factories producing pickups, only 1 of those 3 is making the new truck 3 years later. If it was such a success they would have killed the classic and retooled that factory to build the new truck too.

    • 0 avatar
      Lou_BC

      Chevy used to outsell Ford in the 1/2 ton market but with Ram eating into Chevy sales, that is no longer the case.
      Ford has always sold the most HD’s. Ram has gained market share mostly at the expense of Chevy. Ford and Ram 1/2 ton to HD sales ratio’s are similar. I don’t recall the actual percentages.

      I personally don’t care who sells the most or who claims to sell the most.

      The Tundra isn’t available in a configuration I’d want. As far as reliability, I’ve had less issues with my 2010 Supercrew 4×4 than the 2 dudes I know with Tundra’s. My truck had less problems than the Sienna we had.

    • 0 avatar
      wjtinfwb

      So… you’re insinuating that 750k+ F-series buyers are complete idiots while the 100k Tundra buyers are the “smart” ones? With that logic I’m sure there’s a place for your thinking in the US Government. You may see them as “gimmicks” , consumers tend to view innovations as features. Some have long-term staying power, others will be retired after a year or two but their value is determined in the market place. Ford’s ProTrailer Assist, RAM’s coil spring rear suspension, GM’s new in-line six Duramax all appear to be developments that are resonating with consumers. Toyota does not yet offer any of these types of innovations. I’d never suggest the Tundra isn’t a good truck, it’s an excellent product that has been allowed to grow stagnant in a segment that prizes innovation and development. Given’t Toyota’s capability, I have no doubt they could build a stellar truck that would conquest market share from the big three, as well as a BOF SUV to replace the equally stale Sequoia. To date, they’ve chosen not to, we’ll see what the future holds. But I don’t think denigrating Ford or the other Domestics and their investment in LD trucks will be of much help in Toyota gaining ground in this intensely competitive segment.

    • 0 avatar
      VW4motion

      The problem with the Tundra isn’t the poor frame, old engine, weak payload, Cheap interior, rust issues, or even the 13 mpg. It’s the fact that every terrorist group around the world that wants to kill Americans drive some form of Toyota truck.

  • avatar
    SCE to AUX

    Nothing wrong with Toyota. The Tundra has enough volume to be its own brand.

    Also, nothing wrong with going for one of the Big 3 trucks, but buyers who go for the Toyota or Nissan have probably given more consideration to their purchase.

    • 0 avatar
      Art Vandelay

      I don’t know. If you buy the Nissan you are probably doing so because it is cheap. If you get the Tundra, you are likely a brand buyer.

      Many Buyers of big 3 trucks look at things like axle ratios, locking diffs, and the various payloads and towing capacities. Not all, but the ones buying their truck for a purpose have specific options in mind and the Japanese typically don’t have such granular choices.

      • 0 avatar
        Ol Shel

        Or, as a local mechanic said to me: “I’d rather have a Japanese truck with 200,000 miles than an American with 100,000.”

      • 0 avatar
        eng_alvarado90

        Totally agreed.

        I own a Ram 1500 and I’ve been an active forum member on one of the few Ram forums online and they’re very supportive and informed. They know their stuff and don’t hesitate to offer help to a fellow owner.

        I’ve owned a few more cars. Never ever I have been in a more active forum.

    • 0 avatar
      Oberkanone

      Toyota stated it’s core business strategy is to lead in fuel efficiency in all segments it participates in.

      13 mpg city
      17 mpg highway

      Tundra fails by Toyota’s own metrics.

      • 0 avatar
        bullnuke

        Those fuel mileage figures are about the same as I enjoy in my 2019 6.2 gasser F350.

      • 0 avatar
        mmreeses

        here’s a shocker: corporation employees often say stuff that the corporation never follows through on—even Japanese companies.

        oh the humanity!

      • 0 avatar
        stuki

        Their LeMans winning car may not (and then again it may, but unlikely due to any particular effort fro Toyota…) score the “best” numbers in the class, on irrelevant for the segment EPA tests, either….

        Even the EPA (the guys working there are not even a fraction as dumb as the self promoters giving them marching orders….) don’t bother with applying their no-load simplistic tests to 3/4 tons and above. Not just because. But instead, because driving EPA loops unloaded, is not how the trucks are often used. And also, because those buying, and using, them, are already concerned about actual as-used mileage. And are much better equipped to determine how well their truck performs, efficiency wise, for their particular usage, than any standardized test will ever be.

        Halftons, including the Tundra, aren’t quite as far towards the truck side on the car-truck continuum. But they are still far enough out to render EPA tests rather inaccurate gauges of fuel use for many buyers. Particularly the buyers Toyota is targeting with the powerful but ageing Tundra.

      • 0 avatar
        dal20402

        Presumably this is why they are putting the 5.7 V8 (largely unchanged since 2007) out to pasture and replacing it with their newer turbo V6.

      • 0 avatar
        Lou_BC

        @Oberkanone – Toyota could make a 1,000 hp Tundra that got 2mpg and it still wouldn’t adversely affect their corporate average fleet fuel economy numbers.

  • avatar
    3800FAN

    1 it was last redesigned in 2007.
    2 its a gas hog compared to the domestics and 1 mpg is a huge deal when you’re talking in the teens.
    3: it doesn’t have the different cab and drivetrain options the domestics have (although the same can be said for the RAM 1500).
    4: Truck guys are are brandname fanboys.

  • avatar
    CKNSLS Sierra SLT

    The Nissan Titans are not that cheap. They can easily push to $50,000.00 And then you have the premium fuel requirement on the Titan as well.

    • 0 avatar
      Oberkanone

      Nissan Titan does not require premium fuel. Similar to Sierra & Silverado 6.2L V8 engine the manufacturer recommends premium fuel for maximum performance.

      • 0 avatar
        CKNSLS Sierra SLT

        QUOTE-
        Nissan debuted the 2020 Titan in the fall of 2019 with an updated 5.6-liter V-8. New for 2020, Nissan raised the capability of the standard 5.6-liter to 400 horsepower and 413 pound-feet of torque. Of course, there’s a catch: To achieve this new rating, you must use 91-octane premium fuel.

        Nissan stated at the time, though, the engine more than capable of running on 87 octane, but it will just operate at the same performance as the outgoing 2019 model. This is worth keeping in mind when shopping for a new Titan because if you want that 400 horsepower, you will have to pay more for fuel.
        ——————
        On the Titan’s owners forums it has been reported that the truck just doesn’t do well on 87 octane. Doesn’t make much sense to buy a $50,000plus pickup-and choke the motor on less than premium gasoline.

        • 0 avatar
          ajla

          “Doesn’t make much sense to buy a $50,000plus pickup-and choke the motor on less than premium gasoline.”

          I wouldn’t buy a truck that needs premium to run properly even if I was planning to put premium in it.

          • 0 avatar
            CKNSLS Sierra SLT

            ajla-
            What’s interesting is here on the Dealer’s websites in Utah-they all state with the Titan’s vehicle description premium unleaded V8 motor-as well as all the options and features of the truck along with the VIN.

            So-I am assuming that this was needed (in the description) because issues came up after the sale because some buyers were not informed of the requirement of premium fuel for the truck’s best performance.

    • 0 avatar
      Imagefont

      All vehicles are legally required to operate safely on regular unleaded. Super unleaded may give greater performance but if you choose the cheap stuff your car will be just fine.

      • 0 avatar
        jack4x

        “I wouldn’t buy a truck that needs premium to run properly even if I was planning to put premium in it.”

        Perhaps this is a situation like the Ford 6.2L that “recommends” premium (or E85) only when towing for better performance?

        “All vehicles are legally required to operate safely on regular unleaded.”

        This is categorically false. Try putting 87 octane in my Viper and the results will not be pretty (or safe).

        • 0 avatar
          ajla

          I’m fine with “recommended” as long it actually means that.
          A 400hp 5.6L in 2021 is far from exotica that should be pinging or stumbling on 87.

  • avatar
    mor2bz

    Ford GM is the last bastion of buyers who want/need to believe in
    “American” superiority and loyalty. Bigger is better. Trucks are
    better built than cars. This is an investment. And so on and so forth.
    These accountants turned cowboys are simply buying what their buddies are
    buying. No further thought or explanation is necessary.

    After a recent snowstorm in which we lost A LOT of large branches,
    I was tempted to hire a rollaway dumpster. But after much sawing and
    hacking we were able to get the wood inside an old van, and with two
    trips were able to get rid of the wood. I swear to god we had more
    inside that van than the people with their new trucks were hauling.

    Don’t fret too much about Toyota. Time will tell which trucks stay
    running.

  • avatar
    Imagefont

    Trucks have gotten so big and particularly tall, you need a ladder to look into the engine compartment. I liked Toyota’s older models that were about 8/10’s the size of current full size trucks. Wider than the (perfectly awful) Tacoma, but less than a typical full size truck.
    Then I think about the awful Tacoma, miserable thing to drive, underpowered, uncomfortable, inefficient and virtually useless. And people line up to buy them. Oh well.

  • avatar
    Jeff S

    The 2022 Tundra will only be offered with a turbo V6 so fuel economy should be better. If you want a truck to last the rest of your life it would be the current generation of Tundra so in that aspect it will be cheaper overall to own even with the poorer gas mileage and the higher price. Also there are at least 2 Tundras that have gone over a million miles. If I were interested in a full size pickup that was a half ton it would be a Tundra because of its durability and reliability. Ram would be at the bottom of the list despite liking the looks of the newer Ram the best. The Silverado is an abomination to look at.

    • 0 avatar
      Art Vandelay

      If you want absolute anvil reliability you get a GM with a TBI 305 or 350 or a 300 straight six powered F100/150. We may never no how long those trucks last because they are likely to outlive humanity. Having said that my 2.7eb is over 80k no and never had any issue at all.

      While Toyota may be the most reliable, everyone actually builds pretty reliable trucks. It isnt 1978 anymore

      • 0 avatar
        DenverMike

        Even if true, it’s largely irrelevant. But on a side note, the price and availability of F-150 parts is comical. Used parts too. That’s something Tundra, or god forbid Titan buyers fail to consider.

        Although Tundras don’t typically see hard use, so how can we really compare reliability/dependability? Tundras are way more likely owned by office/gov workers (mid management), law enforcement (cops w/stripes), etc. or other “professionals” that don’t get dirt under their fingernails.

        That’s just my own observations so don’t sue me.

  • avatar
    DenverMike

    Why should we care? Toyota isn’t remotely interested in selling the Tundra at F-150 levels. Yeah you don’t get endless possible configurations nor staggering rebates, but the Tundra is no different than the typical car, CUV, etc, in that sense, Toyota or otherwise.

    It’s like Toyota is on the same track but running a different race.’

  • avatar
    DenverMike

    One to 200K units a year would great for the typical car, CUV, etc, profitability-wise. Except a lot more goes into BOF trucks. I’m not convinced the Tundra could exist without SUVs sharing its platform.

  • avatar
    dal20402

    Toyota’s only competing in a subset of the market here, and its sales will reflect that. It has a much shorter list of available configurations and options than the Big 3, I don’t think it as an automaker is well set up to handle a Big 3-style product with millions of possible build configurations; instead, it will build something that it can build profitably, and sell it at respectable volume.

  • avatar
    Mkz

    I have been eagerly anticipating Toyotas next move for tundra.
    I am leasing a 2020 Silverado 3.0 diesel and i absolutely love it. I am getting 28 us mpg and 15 us mpg with a 5000 lbs trailer.
    No doubt Toyotas are reliable. But considering the difference in fuel cost, tundra has got long way to climb.
    Fuel economy isnt everything but it is a constant.

  • avatar
    Varezhka

    Toyota remembers what the US government will do to you when you are so successful that you end up bankrupting two of the Big Three. Especially now that the company is back under a Toyota family member, their CEO don’t have to prove his worth to the family either.

    I’m sure they’re busy now trying to figure out how not to kill VAG.

  • avatar
    Lightspeed

    I would bet more people buy their Toyota, while more people lease F150s. If you buy, you’re in for the long haul.

    • 0 avatar
      DenverMike

      It’s true. Any backyard mechanic can deal with a modern Toyota, they’re so old school. My mom’s ’17 Tundra would stall/shut off in traffic (when operating temp) and it set-off no codes, zero. The dealer brushed her off (unless she wanted a trans service), no problem found, get lost, scram.

      My first guess was a crank-position sensor and it fixed it. Except the saving grace for owning a new F-150 is there’s just so many of them. If a (general) mechanic is unfamiliar with them, they’re doing something wrong.

    • 0 avatar
      Art Vandelay

      Source? Most people I know that trade up D3 trucks often aren’t leasers…they just trade up every few years because the trucks hold their value. You don’t typically see leases being pushed on anyone’s full sized trucks.

  • avatar
    Dan

    Forget for the moment how dated it is 15 years and three generations of updates for everybody else later, the Tundra in 2007 lapped the entire field and it wasn’t even close. Fords weighed three tons empty and their engines ate themselves, and had been doing so long enough for the word to get out. GM had an otherwise decent truck hamstrung by a carryover powertrain from the previous century with a transmission that also ate itself. Ram was at its Daimler nadir and the Hemi got 12 mpg.

    Yeah gas was stupid expensive, yeah the bankers almost immediately burned down the world economy and the truck market with it, yeah not every half ton trim had a Toyota analog, but even that burned down truck market bought a million of those domestic pieces of junk a year while Tundras were sitting on dealer lots and TMMTX was idling shifts.

    Blind loyalty isn’t something wrong with Toyota and it’s not something Toyota can fix.

    • 0 avatar
      DenverMike

      First you assume the Tundra is a competitive product. Or Titan. It’s not that anyone is blind or stupid loyal.

      There’s some true fanboys running around, and some are loyal to Tundras too. They’re usually the backwards cap guys, high on Redbull and Axe body spray.

      Most of the dedicated “Big 3” (half ton) pickup buyers will switch from any of the “Big 3” depending on options/package variation, price, what’s available when it’s time to buy, trucks on the ground (vs a shiny brochure) and of course rebates/incentives.

      Although it is tempting or a good idea to repeat buy the same brand, when you have a stockpile of extra wheels, accessories, tool boxes, lumber racks, etc, that you know are a direct fit.

      Or if you have a fleet of trucks, staying with one solo brand.

      So is getting burned once, enough to get anyone to switch from a “Big 3” (half ton) pickup to a Tundra? How about twice? Maybe they’ve owned several that didn’t burn them, previous gens perhaps.

      It’s usually not the end of the world. You find a used engine or trans and move on.

      And if they’ve been burned by GM and Ford (back to back), wouldn’t Ram still be a better choice?

      Figure Toyota isn’t really looking to conquest traditional “Big 3” pickups buyers or “loyalist”. There’s plenty of first-time pickup buyers (and or Toyota loyalists, blind or otherwise) that don’t know any better, in terms of what’s out there, possibilities, etc, or may never care.

      • 0 avatar
        CaddyDaddy

        COTD: “There’s some true fanboys running around, and some are loyal to Tundras too. They’re usually the backwards cap guys, high on Redbull and Axe body spray.”

  • avatar
    Boxerman

    I own a 17 tundra crew cab 5.7.
    Needed a truck to tow boat and race car, plus bed for tires tools etc.
    Tried them all. At the time the dodge wasnt serious, the Gm had a sub par powertrain and the ford was simply expensive.

    The Tudra cots significantly less than the others, and its tow rating was far higher. To get the same tow rating on ford it would have increased the price delta even further.

    Theres a reason the ford is No1. its like a limo to ride in, and to drive its simply in another orbit to the toyota. The ford drives more like a good car but on 12/10 scale, the Toyota drives like a refined Truck.

    the Toyota is a refined truck, from the era when trucks were still trucks. Its an anvil and will probably last forever. The transmssion is great like an old fasshioned at its easy to shift with your right foot. Fuel economy is atrocious, but tis a truck, used as a truck for when its apropirate.

    If I drove a truck as a daily down the highway, the ford or ram would e the choice. If it were my daily thee extra cost of the Ford would be well justified.

    For a weekend use vehicle for purpose, the tundra does its job great.
    45k miles in 4 years, so it will last another 15 or so.
    Maybe when electric trucks can toiw distance, or I win the lottery so price does not matter Ill get a different ruck.

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