By on April 4, 2014

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Year-over-year comparisons are a completely valid comparison tool, indeed a vital one, when analyzing the sales volume reported by automobile manufacturers. The auto industry is seasonal; cyclical at the best of times. The number of vehicles sold in say, January, bears little resemblance to the number of vehicles sold in May.

Studying the market share changes from one month to the next, rather than in a year-over-year fashion, is also a perfectly useful yardstick, even if certain automakers do uniquely prioritize certain seasons. And so we consider America’s March 2014 pickup truck sales figures, in which GM’s two full-size trucks suffered a market share decline in the full-size truck category from 32.1% in March 2013 to 31.9% in March 2014.

Yet much worse was the drop from February’s 35% (which itself was down from 39.1% in the previous February) to last month’s 31.9%. The market share owned by the Chevrolet Silverado and GMC Sierra in January 2014 was, at 33.3%, also superior to March’s tally, and also way down from the previous January’s 38.9%.

News that the Ram P/U – formerly known as the Dodge Ram – outsold the Silverado in March was greeted both by many a headline and a harsh rebuke from General Motors. Regardless of how you view the General Motors truck partnership, as a solitary unit with two faces or as two separate entities, GM’s twins outsold the Ram by 16,578 units in March.

Ram sales shot up 26% to 42,532 units, equal to 22.9% of the full-size truck category. Those gains undoubtedly ate into GM’s total, but the Ram and Toyota Tundra also worked together to steal some of Ford’s market share, as well.

Ford’s slower growth is more understandable and more acceptable given the state of their current truck. It’s about to be replaced. Meanwhile, Ford topped 70,000 F-Series sales for the fourth time in the last eleven months, no mean feat.

With 11,589 sales, Toyota topped the 10K mark for the fourth time in the last eight months. Toyota had done so only twice in the previous 31 months. At the current pace, Toyota could sell more than 130,000 Tundras in America for the first time since 2008. In fact, Toyota hadn’t sold this many Tundras in a single month since August of that year. Clearly Tundra volume remains low in comparison to Detroit’s big trucks, but that doesn’t make it a rarely seen vehicle. The Tundra ranked 41st among all new vehicle nameplates in Q1, up from 48th in the Q1 of 2013.

Purely on volume terms, Toyota’s 25% increase was moderate. 2319 more Tundras were sold in March 2014 than in March 2013; Chevy’s 7% March improvement equalled 2686 extra sales. 2014 marked the fifth consecutive year in which Silverado volume improved in the month of March. The problem for General Motors, from an outsider’s perspective, isn’t the Ram’s ability to grab the number two spot, nor is it the fact that Silverado growth was well below the segment’s average. GM points to transaction prices – and Chrysler’s incentives – as a sign of health, and one wouldn’t dare argue that making more money off more trucks is a bad thing.

Yet a strategy that consistently requires the Silverado and Sierra to eat an increasingly smaller portion of an increasingly larger pie is a scheme that’s not terribly worthy of applause in one of the most hotly-contested, highest-volume vehicle categories in the industry.

Truck
March
2014
March
2013
%
Change
3 mos.
2014
3 mos.
2013
%
Change
Ford F-Series
70,940 67,513 + 5.1% 173,358 168,843 + 5.4%
Ram P/U
42,532 33,831 + 25.7% 96,906 77,594 + 24.9%
Chevrolet Silverado
42,247 39,561 + 6.8% 107,757 116,649 - 7.6%
GMC Sierra
16,863 13,817 + 22.0% 42,213 40,796 + 3.5%
Toyota Tundra
11,589 9270 + 25.0% 27,402 23,580 + 16.2%
Nissan Titan
1314 2084 - 36.9% 3318 5112 - 35.1%
Total
185,485
166,076 + 11.7% 450,954 432,574 + 4.2%

 

Truck
March
2014
Share
March
2013
Share
3 mos.
2014
Share
3 mos.
2013
Share
Ford F-Series
38.2% 40.7% 38.4% 39.0%
Chevrolet Silverado/GMC Sierra
31.9% 32.1% 33.3% 36.4%
Ram P/U
22.9% 20.4% 21.5% 17.9%
Toyota Tundra
6.2% 5.6% 6.1% 5.5%
Nissan Titan
0.7% 1.3% 0.7% 1.2%
Full-Size Share Of
Total Pickup Truck Market
89.8% 86.1% 88.8% 86.8%
Full-Size Pickup Share
Of Total Industry
12.1% 11.4% 12.0% 11.7%
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90 Comments on “Cain’s Segments: Q1 2014 Full-Size Truck Sales...”


  • avatar
    sunridge place

    this explains some of it.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-31/gm-puts-margins-before-sales-defying-chrysler-discounts.html

    ‘This month, Chrysler offered an average incentive of $5,598 per truck on the Ram 1500, 35 percent more than the Ford F-150 and 46 percent more than Silverado, according to data dealers provide to researcher J.D. Power and Associates obtained by Bloomberg News. GM is holding off on incentives to preserve profit margins on its redesigned pickups’

    • 0 avatar
      SCE to AUX

      “GM is holding off on incentives to preserve profit margins on its redesigned pickups”

      This may be true for now, but they will relent when their high inventory begins to hurt.

      • 0 avatar
        carguy

        +1: GM has never been able to resist the “cash on the hood” technique for moving metal for long.

        • 0 avatar
          Pch101

          In this particular case, some cash on the hood is probably justified.

          Marchionne is working aggressively to build volume and share. He has made no secret about his plans to create scale, and that poses a direct threat to GM in this segment.

          If I were at GM, I’d also get busy working on a mid-cycle refresh that takes some stylistic departures from the new model. Conservative is fine, but the look should be different enough that it is obvious to the customer that the new trucks are, well, new.

    • 0 avatar
      Vulpine

      I think I can agree with that, considering GM clearly announced almost that much increase to their MSRP near the release of the ’14 models last year. My guess? So they can themselves discount larger amounts and still get the profit margins they really want.

    • 0 avatar
      Hummer

      So cost sells trucks, yet we have two automakers pushing them through the roof? Hmm…

      Good for Ram.

  • avatar
    gtrslngr

    …. and look whats moving up fast on the outside rail .. even before the increases in production [ to meet the increases in demand ] have started . The Toyota Tundra ! All bets are … in the next 24 months or so the Tundra will be outselling the Silverado as well

    As to GM’s whining .. and some journalists trying to make excuses for the RAM outselling the Silverado I say …. bull pucky ! Fact is the new Silverado and the new Sierra have been non starters sales wise right outta the gate . Mostly due to them both being SSDD in slightly updated bodies and the excess starting price as well as ludicrous up-charge pricing from the dealerships

    Blame Shifting . One of GMs most relied on tactics when the chips are down and their backs are against the wall

    Can’t wait to see all the complaining and blame shifting GM’ll be doing when the new Chevy Colorado is a non – starter out of the gate as well . Lets see now . Who can they blame that on ? Hmmmn ..

    • 0 avatar
      seth1065

      There is no way I see the tundras sales passing the Chevy , they would have to triple sales in 24 months, no way that will happen Gtrslingr

    • 0 avatar
      carguy

      There is no chance that Toyota will get even close to GM truck numbers in the next few years. What is more likely is that GM will rethink its pricing strategy in order to move more trucks.

    • 0 avatar
      VoGo

      GutterSlinger,
      Toyota cannot possibly outsell GM in large pickups. GM does 600K/year; Toyota: 100K/year. Even if they cut prices in half, Toyota does not have the capacity to build an additional 500K units/year.

      We all get that you don’t like GM. But until you understand the basics of the industry, it’s difficult to take these comments seriously.

      • 0 avatar
        FreedMike

        I think this guy was molested in a GM car or something. Little else explains the outright hatred.

      • 0 avatar
        highdesertcat

        As much as I am sold on Tundra, there’s no way in hell Toyota can ever come close to selling what the Detroit brands, Ford and GM, and the Italian brand, RAM, are selling and will be selling in the future.

        To add to what VoGo wrote, the Tundra simply costs too damn much considering what the other trucks, similarly equipped, sell for to the masses.

        Toyota is never going to lower their prices on the Tundra because there still are people who willingly overpay for the privilege of driving a Tundra, especially any of the 5.7 variants.

        Mea Culpa.

        • 0 avatar
          nrd515

          I recently drove a friend’s new Tundra, and it was ok, but honestly, it really doesn’t compare in some ways to any of the “big 3′s” current trucks, even the GM trucks are one step ahead in some areas, and IMHO, they are the weakest of the 3 by a big margin, both in looks, and in everything but quietness. They are almost spooky quiet. Price wise, it’s no contest, the big three kill here. The only reason my friend bought the Tundra is his brother is the sales manager at the Toyota dealership, and he got a year end deal he would have been crazy to pass up. He still wishes his brother still worked at the Chrysler dealership he used to be at, as a Ram would have been his choice. He likes the Tundra, but not like he likes the Ram.

          • 0 avatar
            highdesertcat

            You bring up an excellent point! The point that one size doesn’t fit all.

            The fact that I am fired up about Tundra because of my previous experiences with my domestic brand trucks, doesn’t necessarily transfer to others.

            We are all shaped by our experiences. Mine were not that good with the domestic brand trucks I owned.

            Maybe your friend should trade off the Tundra for the RAM he really wants. To me, that would be the logical thing to do. He got a great deal on the Tundra, and the Tundra holds its trade-in value so the RAM dealer will not be stuck with it. Someone will buy it!

        • 0 avatar
          APaGttH

          Even if Toyota priced the Tundra at $20K each, and 60 Minutes ran a story about how Silverados explode with the fury of a thousand suns at 666 miles, and the Silverado is proven to be held together by the tears of child slave labor, Toyota couldn’t build the Tundra fast enough to outsell the Silverado.

          San Antonio was originally built to produce up to 250K Tundras a year – that was before the great recession.

          When Tundra sales collapsed to half of projected levels, and the jettisoning of NUMMI, Tacoma production was split between Mexico and TMMTX. Total capacity at NUMMI for Tundra production is now well below the 250K cap originally outlined.

          Mississippi was going to build the Highlander but then shifted to the Prius and then with the closure of NUMMI took on the Corolla. Matrix manufacturing continued in Canada.

          They simply wouldn’t have the capacity to build 1/2 a million Tundras – nor could they tool up without gutting production of some other vehicle.

        • 0 avatar
          APaGttH

          Actually, compared to the Big 2 and Ram, the Tundra is currently the lowest priced pickup. A loaded out Tundra comes out cheaper than a similarly equipped (fill in the blank).

          Price is one of its only redeeming qualities over the competition.

      • 0 avatar
        gtrslngr

        VoGo … yeah yeah .. youre a real cute little bundle of Zeros and Ones now .. aren’t you ? … Seriously . That the best you can do ? Pathetic

        As to Toyota never being able to out sell Chevy in the full size P/U segment .

        In light of Toyota’s killing GM for #1 overall [ unthinkable five years ago ] … GM’s rapid decline on all segments and market share .. worldwide I might add .. the RAM now out selling the Siverado .. GM’s constant descent into the bowls of automotive hell quality and customer service wise etc .

        Is that a bet you’d really be willing to make ? If so.. you’re really not such a very bright little boy now … are you . Because if you’ve been missing the news lately … the odds are definitely stacked against you

        But hey .. lets lay another one down for ya !

        By 2016 at the latest … more likely by the end of 2014 – beginning of 2015 … VW-Audi relegates GM down to Third worldwide.

        Oh but heck .. taking money from the GM Faithful /Deluded / Confused is like taking candy from a candy jar left open for general consumption … So never mind … I need more of a challenge than the likes of you can offer

        As to the other wingnut claiming the Tundra is too expensive . Y’all need to do some serious comparison shopping before coming out with a ludicrous claim like that

        • 0 avatar
          OldandSlow

          “Is that a bet you’d really be willing to make ?” – Isn’t that a Mitt Romney line.

          The assembly plant for the Tundra in San Antonio, TX is pretty maxed out right now.

          In my view – The Tundra is a classier pick up than a 1/2 ton F-150 or Ram – with the acceptance that the Toyota’s fuel mileage is sub par.

          When it comes to 3/4 ton and 1 ton pickups the choices are Ford, GM and Ram – because Toyota doesn’t play the HD field.

          • 0 avatar
            LALoser

            If I were looking for a truck, I would be looking at the new Colorado, hopefully diesel, and a Tacoma crew cab with a 6M and the bolt-on turbo at the dealer. That would be cooool. Way overpriced, but cool.

        • 0 avatar
          VoGo

          Gtrslngr,
          I am neither a “cute little bundle” nor a “bright little boy.” I am a 50 y.o. man with a wife and 3 kids, and a passion for cars. I come here to read interesting stories and share informed opinions with like-minded enthusiasts.

          Unfortunately, TTAC lately has become a playground for those who would rather insult or spout off without any clue as to what they are saying. I respect Jack’s decision not to oust people for being idiots, but the result has been a real degrading of the quality of the conversation.

          In the spirit of improving the quality of the conversation at TTAC, I ask that you drop the insults and try to focus on opinions that are grounded in reality.

          Alternatively, if you are unable or unwilling to do so, I recommend Autoblog as a good home for the type of conversation you’ve been advancing.

          • 0 avatar
            LALoser

            +1

          • 0 avatar
            highdesertcat

            I don’t know why you even take the time to respond to this Bozo.

            I have to agree with you that lately we have had some fruit and nuts appear in the comment section on ttac, but everyone is entitled to an opinion, since opinions are like @ssholes, and everybody’s got one.

            When it comes to clowns and Bozos, it’s best not to merit their comment with a reply. There’s nothing these Bozo’s hate more than to be ignored.

            And after awhile readers will catch on and skip over their comments at which time such Bozos are commenting with only themselves as readers.

            Then they’ll change their screen name and start the process all over again.

            We may be forced in modern day society to be tolerant of fruits, nuts, fudgepackers, shelvis nibblers and other miscreants, but there is nothing that forces us to interact with them.

            As, always, I appreciate your well thought-out comments.

          • 0 avatar
            thelaine

            They are more than balanced out by guys like HDC, who is like a friendly neighbor and has a wealth of life experience to share. You take what you like and skip the rest.

          • 0 avatar
            Loser

            VoGo, well said.

          • 0 avatar

            I agree, leave him alone. His massive ego got him kicked off AutoLineDaily.com 3 times already. He HATES it when you ignore him…

          • 0 avatar
            ClutchCarGo

            “opinions are like @ssholes, and everybody’s got one”

            And everybody else’s stinks.

          • 0 avatar
            mikey

            I tried to reason, with the dude when he first came here.

            You can’t reason, with the unreasonable.

            Lets just all of us ignore him. Just like a bad case of gas. “gtrslingr” will pass.

          • 0 avatar
            highdesertcat

            One other thing I’d like to add about this character; He has written some very good comments before that were clear, lucid and well laid-out, bringing his point to this forum without belittling or degrading other people.

            And then, as if this guy has multiple personalities, he rants and rages, belittles and degrades the opinion of others, without cause.

            This guy reminds me of my wife’s hormonal hot flashes: unpredictable and insufferable.

          • 0 avatar
            golden2husky

            ….This guy reminds me of my wife’s hormonal hot flashes: unpredictable and insufferable….

            Guess the wife does not read TTAC!!

          • 0 avatar
            highdesertcat

            No she doesn’t! But she flashes just the same.

    • 0 avatar
      Vulpine

      Looks like the Ram’s still rising faster than the Tundra, though.

      Honestly, I’m thinking a lot of the slow-down for Silverados is people waiting to trade their RoadWhales™ for new mid-sized models.

    • 0 avatar

      You are correct. This has nothing to do with sky high prices GM is charging for the new pickups. /sarcasm

      Show me an example of any car/truck in history that had its transaction price jacked up nearly 15% in one year, and still continue to match last year’s numbers. Only 20% of full size GM trucks sold for $40,000 and above in 2012. Now more than 50% are selling above $40,000. Old GM lived and eventual;ly died by monthly sales numbers. Ram is now where GM was 5 years ago. Too much reliance on full size pickups with 99% of the effort and marketing dollars spent on trucks. GM OTH is concentrating on making their Buick and Cadillac brands relevant again along with cars in the sub-compact/compact and full size segments.

      Comparing Ram sales to the Silverado and to a lesser extent the Sierra is like comparing Dodge Journey sales to the Acadia just because they both can seat 7 passengers and come with a V6.

      I did my part feeding a troll today.

    • 0 avatar
      DevilsRotary86

      I agree with others here; I see it as unlikely that the Tundra will outsell GM in trucks in a time frame sooner than 7-10 years. However, I could see in the next 24 months Toyota start nipping on the GMC Sierra’s heels.

  • avatar
    Carlson Fan

    I’ll make the same gripe as I did last time about the data. To me it is somwwhat meaningless. The 1/2 ton PUs and HD PUs are 2 different trucks that serve to 2 different markets. Can you not break it up that way? Surely the manufacturers must track it.

    • 0 avatar
      Vulpine

      Already worked out on another site. 1/2-tons: F-150, 3/4-ton: Silverado and 1-ton is RAM for most sales last month. HOWEVER, that doesn’t quite cover the fact that Ram’s overall numbers are rising faster than anyone else. It will still take a lot of sales to match Ford and Chevy in the 1/2-ton and 3/4-ton classes.

    • 0 avatar
      hubcap

      I’m sure they track it internally but don’t differentiate externally.

      • 0 avatar
        DenverMike

        Stop crying. Here’s the 1/2 ton breakdown, 2013:

        F-150: 469,515

        Silverado: 382,185

        Sierra: 142,842

        GM 1500s: 525,027

        Ram: 224,074

        Tundra: 112,732

        Titan: 15,691

        F-series are heavier on 3/4 and 1 ton sales than GM and Ram, but 4500 and 5500 series, Ford and Ram are inconsequential. Around 5%. And built on the same assembly line as the their HDs.

        blogs.cars.com/.a/6a00d83451b3c669e201a3fce437ae970b-pi

        The general pop cares little of the exact breakdown, so you have to search a little. All F-series are considered the same for simplicity.

      • 0 avatar
        Carlson Fan

        The general population may not care but it is still relevant, especially to the manufacturers. And when having these discussions lets compare apples to apple. The new GM HD trucks weren’t even launched when the 1/2 tons were and the incentives between the two are usually different.

  • avatar
    mtr2car1

    The snarky comments from GM about the amount of incentives on the Ram and holding price vs. chasing volume lasted about a day.

    GM announced to their dealers that they’re extending Truck Month into April and an extra $1k was added to the pot.

    Anyone else notice that the “all star” version saving went from $7451 last month to something starting with an $8xxx this month?

    This matters big time to them

    • 0 avatar
      sunridge place

      And the stupidity of automotive reporting and people here continues I see.

      The $1k isn’t across the board. It’s on Double Cabs only which represent about 30% or less of the half ton segment.

      Truck incentives are very competitive. GM is struggling at the low end of the market. The extra $1k bonus cash is an answer to that.

      Autonews.com is borderline TMZ these days with their headlines and I see you fall for it. If you actually read their article, they do vaguely mention that the bonus cash is for double cabs only and the big offer on HD trucks is for sell down on the 2014′s while the new 2015 HD’s hit the market.

  • avatar
    Kenmore

    GM = square wheel wells = Mega Dork

    Ford & Ram look cool.

  • avatar
    Timtoolman

    Just like anything else related to car (truck) sales, you have to take all of the variables into consideration. Despite the higher “cash” discounts, I could see a dealer giving lower concessions on a trade, or charge a slightly higher interest rate. I read someplace that the average transaction on a RAM was actually slightly higher than the Chevy counterpart. Do the vehicles compare apples to apples?

    What about MSRP? If you start off with a higher suggested retail, which everyone will probably agree is a made up number, the higher discount can be perceived as a better deal. It may not be.

    Then, there’s the 4500/5500 argument, an area where GM no longer competes.

    For my part, my ’05 1500 has performed admirably. I had a bad AC fan early on, and replaced a leaky hose a couple of years ago. Recently, I swapped the front wheel bearings for Timken’s after 130,000 miles. That Hemi is like a rocket when I need it. I flush my tranny every 36,000 miles and other fluids when scheduled.

    Considering it’s a machine, I have zero complaints and would buy another tomorrow.

    BTW, when I bought it in ’05, the market was on the verge of collapse. The 4.7′s were advertised for $10,000 off of list ($19,900 or thereabouts), so I told the sales lady I wanted 10 grand off the Hemi. List was $32,600 and I bought it for $22,800. I don’t remember how the interest rate came into play, but I still think I worked a good deal.

    • 0 avatar
      nrd515

      I loved my ’03 Ram, I got like 9K off the sticker on it, and the buying experience was great, mostly done online by email, with a phone call at the end, when I said, “Let’s do it!”. I had only one major issue with it in the almost 5 years I had it. The rear end started howling at 7K miles, and it turned out it was one of a couple of hundred missing some pin or something in it, and it needed the whole insides of the differential replaced as it was all messed up. A day in the shop, and it was fine again. When I got hurt, and getting into it was flat out dangerous, I traded it for a Charger R/T. I was like 3 payments from the end, and I miss it still. I see it all the time, it’s usually sitting in front of a house I pass on the way home from work. The day before yesterday, I saw it on the road for the first time in a long time. I love my Challenger, but I still miss the Ram, especially during this horrible Winter.

  • avatar
    OldandSlow

    According to Bloomberg : “GM’s share of the U.S. large pickup market fell to 33.9 percent in January, from 39.6 percent in 2011.”

    Someone at GM had better be concerned. My take on the redesigned Silvy and Sierra is that they’d be a perfect fit for the late 1950′s – if bigger, bulkier and taller is to be considered better.

    Look for a major refresh by the 2016 model year.

    • 0 avatar
      Carlson Fan

      I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting for that to happen. I agree they look too much like the GMT- 900s but that doesn’t mean they aren’t competitive. Leave the looks alone & figure out how to stick a 4 cylinder Isuzu diesel under the hood of the 1/2 ton. Offer it in the 1/2 ton fullsize SUVs as well.

  • avatar
    mtr2car1

    @sunridge.

    I doubt that GM would base a national add buy, especially during high profile events like the Final Four to push a segment that’s only 30% (your number, not theirs) of the market.

    In fact the quote from GM themselves was to add the money “to help us get after the heart of the market”

    Either way, Tuesday they were making fun of Ram and by Thursday they adding cash to fire up the troops.

    • 0 avatar
      sunridge place

      The promotion listed was for a Double Cab (formerly called extended cab) truck.

      Half tons break down roughly:
      60% Crew Cab
      30% Double/Ext Cab
      10% Regular Cab

      You don’t believe me? Ok. Do some of your own research.

      Read the article yourself where it states the extra $1k was for Double Cabs.

      http://www.autonews.com/article/20140403/RETAIL01/140409925/stung-by-ram-win-in-march-chevy-further-juices-silverado-incentives

      ‘Heart of the market’ probably means by price point? Who knows what a PR person meant by that. GM is struggling a bit at the bottom end of the half tons due aggressive discounting and is trying to keep incentives controlled without losing too much volume. I wrote this elsewhere here and it makes sense here too:

      In March 2014, sales for trucks went like this:

      Ford= 70,000 ish trucks
      GM= 60,000 ish trucks
      FCA= 42,000 ish trucks

      So, GM should reduce prices on all GM trucks by 20% to try and get some incremental sales to try to beat Ford overall?

      You think that’s a good strategy? Let’s knock 20% off margins of ALL sales in order to incrementally gain a few thousand sales?

      For simplicity sake, lets try that assuming a $10k margin on each truck

      60,000 sales x $10k= $600,000,000 profit

      Lets reduce that margin by 20% and boost sales to Ford’s level shall we?

      70,000 sales x $8k= $560,000,000 profit

      Yay! I’m #1 in sales!!! The internet commenters of the world think I’m great!

      But, you’re making less money overall.

      • 0 avatar
        bball40dtw

        When I’ve looked at basic fleet trucks, RAM is the go to right now. GM and Ford will let RAM buy that market share. I used to buy Silverados because of the discounts, and did with the 2013s. However, I probably am not the most profitable customer for them. I have no intention of buying a loaded up Silverado. My fleet business has no bearing on my personal truck. If I were to buy a lux truck, it would be a Ford (I do like the new SUVs though).

        • 0 avatar
          Lou_BC

          @bball40dtw – Ram actually stated they were moving away from fleet sales. I suspect that had to do more with the fact that they are close to maximum on production capacity. Ram wants more capacity but Marchionne has said that he would not build a new factory in North America. That makes shifting from lower profit fleets to more lucrative private sales a no brainer.
          Another point is the fact that Ram trucks have much lower cargo capacities than Ford or Chevy. A max cargo F150 Supercrew 4×4 sits at 2300lb, a similar GM truck at 2000lb and a Ram under 1500lb. Fleets like cheap trucks but they also want capacity. a 2300 lb capacity F150 puts it close to a more expensive (buy/operate/insure)3/4 ton truck.

          • 0 avatar
            sunridge place

            The amount of blatantly incorrect information offered up as fact by people posting on here really seems at a record high.

            ‘Ram actually stated they were moving away from fleet sales’

            Totally incorrect. In fact, the complete opposite is true.

            https://www.autonews.com/article/20130610/RETAIL01/306109960/ram-takes-aim-at-gm-ford-truck-fleet-reign

            Nothing wrong with Ram trying to get more into commercial fleet sales…but you couldn’t be more incorrect with your statement Lou.

            Yet, like always, it is passed on here as ‘fact’ and the clueless become even more clueless after reading it.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            @sunridge place – that would be an about face for Ram as they had said that they were moving away from fleet sales.

            That statement was made before Ram come out with Ram Commercial.

            Blatant would imply deliberate.

            Truck threads bring out the best in people.

          • 0 avatar
            sunridge place

            Yes, FCA wants to rely less on fleet as they refresh their line up. But, Ram does not want to reduce fleet. You read the FCA thing somewhere and assumed it included Ram.

            That was my point. Your statement about Ram was 100% incorrect. I didn’t say it was intentional.

            Plenty of people post inaccurate factual information on here without realizing it. You are just one of many.

            You’re a little smarter now after this interaction.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            @sunridge place – actually…. NO. It was Ram that was trying to withdraw from fleets. It may of been a case of Ram PR hacks making excuses for their poor fleet sales, who knows…….

            My comment may of been outdated but it wasn’t incorrect.

            and one more NO.

            My interaction with you hasn’t changed my level of intellect, if anything, you impress me as one more GM fan that has lost hope and is lashing out at those critical of the company.

            BTW, what kind of truck do you drive?

          • 0 avatar
            sunridge place

            Easy there Lou.

            I’m no fanboy. I deal in facts. You admit your facts were outdated. But, you learned that here. That was my point. There is nothing wrong with Ram getting into the commercial (fleet) truck business. They should be there. All I was pointing out was your incorrect statement that Ram was moving out of that business.

            That’s all. I have friends and family who drive trucks and they are great people but they have no clue how the truck business works in the big picture.

            If you want, I can teach you your next lesson in the truck business. The one about Brian Johnson and Barclays statement about the truck launch in February vs his statements in March. Let me know if you want that lesson.

          • 0 avatar
            Vulpine

            It may be that Lou has forgotten that Ram very specifically stated they were jumping into the fleet business with both feet–building ‘made for fleet’ pickups and cab-chassis with more load capacity and fewer luxuries. My local Ram dealer keeps several on the lots and they are almost always painted a very plain white to make it easier for advertising body wraps. The few ProMaster vans I’ve seen were also “Fleet White”.

          • 0 avatar
            DenverMike

            @Vulpine – Not just that, but it’d be insanely stup!d to limit sales of not just the #1 revenue printing machine known to FCA, but Ram pickups are the #3 most profitable cars in world.

            Fleet sales are great for full-size trucks and HD cab/chassis’. Those used trucks, besides being strippers, aren’t dumped back on the market within months and low miles. They’re usually driven into the ground and sold for scrap.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            @sunridge place – Brian Johnson of Barclays is now singing a different song? Do tell…… the suspense is killing me.

            And how did you become an omnipotent expert of the truck business?

            ….more suspense.

          • 0 avatar
            sunridge place

            Better late than never Lou.

            Here is Mr. Johnson’s statement in March after seeing some #’s and after his February ‘note to his clients’

            http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/06/us-autos-gm-trucks-idUSBREA2503M20140306

            I don’t really think I need to defend myself to you as to how I’m a truck expert. You seem to be doing a pretty good job here telling us that you don’t know what you’re talking about in this case.

  • avatar

    None of this is an apples to apples comparision. Ford only sold 45,000 full size SUVs last year. GM sold more than 232,000 full size SUVs in 2013(includig the Avalanche and Cadillac EXT). GM will gladly lose a Silverado sale to a Tahoe given how much more profitable full size SUVs are. Tahoe, the cheapest GM full size SUV starts at $44,600. A Silverado with the same 5.3L engine starts at $25,000.

    • 0 avatar
      Hummer

      At least on GMs site the regular cab short bed with 4.3 is more than 25k, add 4×4 your over 30k

    • 0 avatar
      Lou_BC

      @alluster – I’ve noticed that GM fans are trotting out SUV sales numbers as some sort of soother to offset the sting of a failed 1/2 ton truck launch.
      Trucks often are an alternative to SUV’s but I personally don’t know of a single person that cross-shops 1/2 tons and SUV’s.

      • 0 avatar
        Carlson Fan

        Lou BC- How do you figure it is a failed launch with the 1/2 tons? The data posted doesn’t give the detail to prove that. For all we know it’s the HD trucks that are losing market share, not the 1/2 tons. And is the name of the game to sell units or is it to make money? GM trucks are selling for more money than a Ford or Dodge. Of course we don’t know the cost structure for any of them so we still have no way of telling who is making the most money on a truck sale because transaction price alone doesn’t tell us that. I’m not saying your wrong, just that you don’t have the data to know.

  • avatar
    johnhowington

    oh the great debate about trumped up wheelbarrows will never end.

  • avatar
    Big Al from Oz

    Money on the hood? Why?

    The Big 2 and to a lesser degree Fiat still have a cultural legacy of the past haunting them. Overproduction of pickups and other vehicles.

    If production numbers were reduced marginally and better/fairer competition was in place in the US the Big 2 and Fiat would look at how they produce in a different light.

    Like a unionized factory the US pickup market is a closed shop.

    Overproducing, then throwing money on the hood shows that the normal retail price for a US pickup is too high.

    Sergio with the Ram has produced a more attractive vehicle than they previously had. This was done using innovation. Ford to a lesser degree has been innovative.

    Maybe the top execs should be fired. Import better execs and managers into the US to run the Big 2. Chrysler has made inroads into it’s culture at the top.

    It’s about time GM digs a little deeper. I would also bring forward the release of the Colorado/Canyon.

    • 0 avatar
      DenverMike

      @BAFO

      >>Overproduction of pickups and other vehicles.

      Overproduction is just part of the deal, especially for trucks. The more trim levels, options, special packages and groups you offer, the more vehicles you have to stock to remain competitive with other brands across town and the same brand dealers, the next town over.

      Trucks just have almost endless combinations and configurations so dealers have to stock them deep. Not so much with the Tundra and Titan, so production and therefor rebates can be kept in check. They may lose market share because of it though.

      But the American pickup market is open to any and all takers. A BMW 1/2 ton pickup wouldn’t surprise me. Who the heck knows???

      • 0 avatar
        bball40dtw

        I think he forgets that the F150 alone comes in 10+ trims with 3 different cabs, 3 different bed lengths, 4 different engines, and 11 different rear axle ratios. That doesn’t even include the F250 on up. Everyone wants something a little bit different, but they won’t wait. The other dealer down teh street may have it too.

        The RAM is also better than it was, but there is no doubt they are gaining some market share with price. I drove a decently loaded RAM Big Horn Crew Cab 1500 4×4 that the dealer priced out on a lease at $240/mo with $1000 down. Thats crazy.

        • 0 avatar
          Big Al from Oz

          @bball40dtw
          Yep, one manufacturer using one platform is really competitive.

          The old East Germany had the Trabant. A real competitive market according to you way of thinking.

          Real and FAIRER competition will weed out the non performers.

          I suppose the US should also be handicapped and spotted 25% at the Olympic Games.

          Great logic.

          • 0 avatar
            bball40dtw

            What are you talking about Al? That has nothing to do with what I posted.

            Ford builds all those combinations of the F150 because people buy them. Incentives are also very dependent on the combination.

            I don’t want to go down the chicken tax free market arguement path. It has consumed many a TTAC poster. You can complain about management, but Ford knows what they are doing when it comes to trucks. RAM is winning with price more than innovation. I am not saying they are not innovating, but branding and price has been more important.

          • 0 avatar
            Big Al from Oz

            @bball40dtw
            Yep, and the East Germans bought Trabants.

            Really bball40dtw, you flat earth creationist types must realize the impact severe restrictions placed on your pickup market have.

            You will state like some of the others on this site that the chicken tax has no effect on what is offered with your pickups.

            But if Kentucky Fried Chicken was taxed an additional 25% compared to MacDonalds don’t you think Kentucky Fried Chicken sales would be affected?

            So, when you go out and buy gas and do your grocery shopping, donate an additional 25% of your expenditure to charity.

            I’m not saying full size trucks will not dominate. But greater competition will create better business management and better products.

            This is what free trade encourages, it’s called competition. It will force business to perform at their optimum.

            I do feel sorry for you guys in the US that don’t receive the products we receive globally.

            Yes full size trucks can make do, but are full size trucks what everyone wants?

            If it was their wouldn’t be a chicken tax.

          • 0 avatar
            bball40dtw

            I won’t state that the chicken tax going away will have no effect on truck sales. I was just talking about why there are so many trucks in the sales pipeline. I agree that the chicken tax should go away.

          • 0 avatar
            DenverMike

            @bball40dtw – Forget it. It’s a common meme around the would. Foreigners can’t get their heads around the popularity of “protected” full-size trucks in America. They’re fully locked in the belief that it couldn’t naturally occur without the government forcing full-size trucks on us.

            No matter what facts you put in front of BAFO, he won’t let it go. He showed up here 100% convinced about said wife’s tales and such. For months he pretended the ’80s mini-truck crazy never happened. That alone disproves all his little chicken conspiracies.

            We’ve been a pickup truck loving society long before Mazda, Isuzu and Mitsu ever dreamed of building small trucks.

            Mostly it wouldn’t matter what small trucks the world could offer Americans. We’ve never been big fans of. For a brief time yes, but same with bell bottoms, Parachute Pantz, mullets, big hair, etc. Along with small trucks, they had their day.

            And we’re not necessarily talking the same customer base here. Small truck fans aren’t into big trucks, especially 3/4 tons and up. And vise versa. The mini-truck crazy/fad/invasion didn’t even impact or hurt full-size truck sales.

            Ask BAFO what full-size truck ‘lack’, and you get _________ dead air.

            I don’t know what BAF0′s deal is, but nothing will change his mixed up mind. He’s like a Flat Earther

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            Ram has gained sales because they have gone down Ford’s path by expanding the options and configuration lists on their pickups. 50% of pickups are personal use. That is a huge segment. If trucks were true to their workman’s roots, we would not see the number of sales we see know.

            Tariffs protect from outside competition but that is not part of the current debate. We are talking about internal competition.

            GM made the mistake of building conservatively styled trucks coupled with limited trim packages and limited driveline packages. Even sticking to the old 4.3, 5.3, 6.2 SBC nomenclature was a mistake. That gives the impression that the engines are warmed over SBC’s not new mills.

            If you want to upsell a new line it needs to be apparent to the buyer that the truck is worth the cash.
            Toyota does that rather well. People are willing to pay more for one but they aren’t willing to pay more for a GM truck.

          • 0 avatar
            mikey

            Its the exact same situation here in Canada. Where 100 dollars won’t fill a truck gas tank. People that,for whatever reason want a truck, prefer full size.

            My brother in law, drives a car carrier. He likes to do the run up to Timmins. {7 hours north of Toronto] 75 percent of his loads are full size trucks. Up north the gas is over 5 USD a gallon.

            He asked the sales manager at one dealership, if he had too many trucks on the lot?

            The guy answered “no such thing as too many trucks”

            I’m confident that the new smaller GM truck will sell. I just can’t see it eating
            into the full size sales.

          • 0 avatar
            Big Al from Oz

            @mikey
            You Canadians’ are hogged tied to the US auto market’s rules and regulations.

            We’ll see what will occur when the Canadian’s do trade with the EU more fairly.

            Your pickups will be basically what the US dictates.

            So, how can you have a decent alternative? You can’t, your bound by the US economy and the influences of the Big 2 and Fiat.

            The Canadian’s do have quite a restrictive motor vehicle market as well.

          • 0 avatar
            Big Al from Oz

            @Lou_BC
            My comment regarding the influences dictating what goes on in the US pickup market isn’t just internal competition.

            Under the existing restrictive US pickup market GM is doing dismally.

            But if the US pickup market was a free market not marred with anti competitive external protectionist measures I do think the full size market would look differently.

            Prices would be less on full size trucks to compete with most probably better quality imported pickups.

            This means each of the Big 2 and Fiat would have less trim levels/configurations to choose from.

            The US would end up with many more pickup choices.

            The US with the use of the anti competitive practices has allowed it’s local pickup market to become distorted.

            Imagine if the chicken tax was dropped and half a million imported pickups were sold. This would shake the very foundations and profits of the Big 3 and Fiat.

            They don’t want this and neither does the UAW or CAW (UNIFOR).

          • 0 avatar
            DenverMike

            @BAF0 – The Titan and Tundra were sent in to rock the very foundation of the Big 3 truck market. How’d that work out? So you expect small wave of import trucks, like Proton, Mahindra, Ssangyong, VW to do better?

            The ’80s mini-truck craze virtually had zero impact on Big 3 full-size truck sales. Get a clue!

            What would feel impact the most would be existing import brands, if any. Honda, Toyota, Mazda, Nissan, VW, Subaru, Kia, Huyndai. Small imported trucks would mostly cannibalize small and mid-size sedans, SUVs, CUVs, Crossovers, hatches, wagons, subcompacts, etc. These OEMs have the most to fear, if at all…

            That’s if, IF global pickup OEMs would be willing to come here and take the abuse from the bottom of the American market. Fleet, cheapskates and other rebate demanding bottom feeders would be waiting with open arms… For regular cabs especially! And that’s if they’re in love with the idea of dropping their prices shockingly low, compared to what small trucks sell for around the world.

  • avatar
    alsorl

    Biggest surprise is the increase in tundra sales. Not a big surprise is Ram increasing sales while GM losing ground with there not so impressive box krap Mexican built pickup.

  • avatar
    nrd515

    Big Al From Oz- What pickup, regardless of size, that would be imported if the chicken tax was removed would you think that would significantly affect full size truck sales levels? I can’t think of a single one I would buy over any of the 4 full sized trucks available here now, unless the price was a whole lot lower, and I don’t see that happening.

    • 0 avatar
      Big Al from Oz

      @nrd515
      What vehicle will have the biggest impact on the US car market in 5 to 10 years? You don’t know and can’t answer that, you can surmise.

      There are parallels in my question as to what you asked. That’s why there should be competition, this will find out who and the what is the better for the US.

      Competition, any competition is great, the beneficiaries are the consumers. The only ones who would protest would be a Detroit manufacturer or UAW/CAW, energy, corn farmers, etc.

      Why does there have to be a specific brand/product?

      Why can’t all imported pickups affect full size pickups in your market? Plus the figure I quoted will not kill full size pickups, it will force them to become better and more competitive.

      No one can tell which vehicle will have the most impact. We have about 13 different pickup manufacturers supplying our market. This doesn’t include the US full size trucks we have.

      Our pickup market is like a car market, you can get anything with build quality that is equivalent to US vehicles to Japanese build quality to Euro build quality.

      Why does there have to be a particular threat to the full size pickup?

      Even if a company only sells 30 000 of a particular model it will have some impact, but multiply that by 8 or 10 and you can see the additional choice you will have.

      But other regulations should change in the US as well to liberalise your vehicle market. Diesel regs are a classic example, everything from diesel fuel quality to emission regs are biased towards a Detroit gasoline vehicle.

      For companies like GM to survive the US has to move more towards a free market, like it expects others to do.

      Future FTAs already have caveats regarding the chicken tax, but they will be progressively reduced.

      The end is near for V8 full size pickups and full size pickups. Protection combined now with the FTAs will be the end of the full size pickup within a decade or two.

      How much will an aluminium pickup cost. Look at the position GM is in now with it’s pricing. An all steel diesel Colorado will start to look attractive.

      Hmmm……

  • avatar
    APaGttH

    So Ford and GM are not able to gain any appreciable marketshare because the F-150 is up for refresh, the Silverado/Sierra missed the mark miserably, and the RAM is better than both of them. The Tundra is gaining marketshare not due to a better mouse trap, but by having a lower transaction price than the Italian and two Detroit pickup options.

    The Ram is just feckin’ good – well optioned – well marketed – and offers a wide range of choices from value to luxury.

    They got that one very right.

    If there is a silver lining (no pun intended) it does seem that GM is far less dependent on North American sales of big truck to be profitable compared to 10 or 15 years ago.

  • avatar
    Lou_BC

    @APaGttH
    “If there is a silver lining (no pun intended) it does seem that GM is far less dependent on North American sales of big truck to be profitable compared to 10 or 15 years ago.”

    That is true since Barclays and other analysts have said this has been a poor truck launch for GM. 2018 will seem like an eternity if these trucks keep loosing market share.

    Globally GM has slipped to 3rd place behind Toyota and VW. Both companies including Ford posted considerably higher profits than GM.

    Ram has come out aggressively with some interesting options.
    They just need to move up in ranks in relation to durability. Ram HD’s were rated 3rd by JD Power in a 3 truck market. Ram 1500′s don’t even rate in JD Power’s top 3.
    Vincentric did pick Ram as the best (cost of ownership)personal use 1 ton HD, GM as the best 3/4 ton and Ford F150 the best 1/2 ton.
    The 2014 fleet results are not out yet.

    Last year, oddly enough, Ram got the pick for best personal use HD and GM got the pick for the best fleet HD. Ford F150 won both categories.

    True Delta shows big improvement in Ram.


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