By on March 9, 2012

This is the Honda Civic GX, a vehicle that runs on propane and propane accessories compressed natural gas. Despite the Civic GX’s title as one of America’s “Greenest Vehicles“, the Civic GX is pricey, and CNG refueling stations are few and far between – apparently there are only 830 in the entire United States, with not all of them open to the public. Honda wants to change that – but it wants dealers to bear the costs, monetary and otherwise, of building new fueling outlets.

Honda’s Steve Center, in charge of environmental business development, wants to put CNG fueling stations in at least two dealerships in California this year. Center told Bloomberg

“If the dealer had a fueling station, it would really reduce some of that concern for the customer,” Center said at Honda’s U.S. headquarters in Torrance, California. “It’s not our place to create infrastructure, but it’s a chicken-and-egg situation and we’re going to have to nurse that egg along.”

So, it’s not Honda’s place to build infrastructure - but the dealers can go ahead and do it. The costs of the project weren’t disclosed, but off the bat there appears to be some value in installing these stations; getting customers to keep coming back to the dealer can help them build relationships, sell aftermarket parts, servicing other vehicles and build good will among customers.

Honda’s pitch appears to be in the beginning stages, but one can guess how they’re going to market the CNG Civic; great fuel economy, from a clean, domestic energy source that’s also free from serious range anxiety (the Civic GX gets about 225-250 miles per tank). In addition to the dealer filling stations, there are home units available too – but they take about 8-10 hours to fill the car up (since the gas isn’t pressurized like commercial stations) and cost about $3,400 for the unit alone.

The days of Jim Cardiges and kickbacks are long over, but there’s no reason to think that there may be positive incentives to signing on with the program. Maybe there will be a better allocation of cars. Maybe warranty claims would get paid quicker. Maybe co-op advertising campaigns would get a bigger share of their costs picked up by Honda. For now, this looks like a test program, and Honda will be helping dealers get financing, incentives and approval from local governments. Yesterday’s initial article on natural gas vehicles (yes, including LPG/Propane as well as CNG vehicles) had great commentary from the B&B, particularly on the drawbacks of natural gas vehicles.  I’m confident that the increasing price of gas along with the eminently marketable angle of a domestic clean energy source means we’ll be hearing a lot more about natural gas in light vehicles, regardless of the fuel’s merits.

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67 Comments on “Honda Tells Dealers: Build CNG Fueling Stations, And They Will Come...”


  • avatar
    sportyaccordy

    Most places in the US don’t seem to have great gas distribution beyond mains. It would take a LOT of investment.

    • 0 avatar
      Toad

      The vast majority of urban and suburban residences and business have a gas line that they can easily connect to. The infrastructure is already there for most of us.

  • avatar
    Volt 230

    No, they won’t!

  • avatar
    Prado

    It would make more sense for Honda to partner with someone like Costco, who sells both gas and has a car buying service.

    • 0 avatar
      jpolicke

      Costco sells propane. This car runs on natural gas – the stuff they pipe through the street. Propane might actually make more sense; at least there are a lot more places that sell it.

      Honda probably wants the dealers to install the station because there’s precious little hope of a dealer stocking a Civic GX if he can’t fill the car up to demonstrate it.

      • 0 avatar
        Prado

        correct.. Costco doesnt sell CNG. I meant that it would be better to partner with someone who is in the automotive refueling business to set up the CNG infrastructure than to set it up at a dealer. Who wants to go to a car dealer to get their gas? Most people I know want to avoid car dealers like the plague.

      • 0 avatar
        DC Bruce

        Propane is made from crude oil and is considerably more expensive than natural gas (in the U.S., at least), for equivalent BTU value. So, in the U.S., propane-fueled cars are not going to be economically attractive at all.

    • 0 avatar
      Michal

      DC Bruce: LPG can be made from oil, but usually it’s extracted from natural gas fields, which are never pure methane. The fields usually contain enough propane and butane to make extraction worthwhile.

  • avatar
    dts187

    It’s not just Honda

    http://energy.aol.com/2012/03/07/another-natural-gas-fueling-station-boost/

  • avatar
    graham

    My birthday is coming up soon. Could I get a TTAC article without a hackneyed strike-through appearance as a special present?

  • avatar
    gslippy

    I’d like to own a CNG vehicle, but its utility (no pun intended) isn’t much greater than an EV if I can’t fill it up on the road.

    Honda is going to have a rough time doing this on their own.

  • avatar
    bryanska

    If there was a dealer within reasonable distance, I’d buy it. Why the H not if I already have a gas crossover and Miata in the garage too?

    • 0 avatar
      dts187

      I’m with you. I live in WV but travel to the Pittsburgh area for work quite a bit. They have a few CNG stations around. If I find myself living there I might pull the trigger on a CNG conversion just for the nerd factor.

    • 0 avatar
      APaGttH

      I’m in the opposite camp and I’m watching all of this closely. There is a Honda dealer walking distance (OK, a long walk but under two miles) from my house that I pass by 2 to 10 times a day, and its one with a very good reputation.

      If the ‘guberment is going to give me $10K to buy a CNG Civic and the Honda dealer gives me a place to fill up, this literally becomes a no-brainer for me. The weather beater commuter GM U-Body goes up for private sale and this is my two middle fingers to the gas pump.

      I’d be on this like white…on…rice.

      But paying full boat ($28K) for the Civic CNG version doesn’t add up when I look at the total picture. Gasoline would have to go to $12 a gallon for the Gen II U-body to no longer make sense. Being paid off in full and basically depreciated out does have cost advantages over a $28K replacement cost.

  • avatar
    dts187

    You’re not going to see an increase in CNG stations because of dealer incentives. You’ll see them created by the larger companies that are producing NG. Chesapeake Energy is working with GE to create a solution (see article I posted above). EQT has opened a CNG station (more planned)and provided grants to NPO’s for purchasing CNG vehicles. Dominion is trying to open a powerplant fired by NG. They’re doing this to increase profits and that’s why I think we’ll see CNG infrastructure develop before other alt fuels in the US. Profit is an amazing motivator.

    • 0 avatar
      jpolicke

      Let’s see..”green” energy, GE involvement.. so how many billions’ worth of DoE grants, loan guarantees, tax credits, etc, is this going to cost the taxpayer? Tell me while I’m sitting down.

      • 0 avatar
        dts187

        Hopefully many, many billions. If the government wants to give lots of money to the industry that employs me I’ll be fine with it. I’m sure I’ll recover the extra taxes I pay with a big bonus check at the end of the year!

        But that’s just me being selfish. Dealwithit.

      • 0 avatar
        Franz K

        I’m with you jpolicke . I say if Businesses can’t get off the ground without another round of ObamaClaus Hand Outs they’ve got no business BEING in business ///// As for you dts187 …. go earn a living rather than mooching off the American Tax Payers . You never know when we all might just get fed up and come collecting . Cause there’s a whole lot more of us than there is of you …. that much is guaranteed

        Deal with that !

      • 0 avatar
        dts187

        Dear Franz K,
        I’m sure that in your frantic attempt to blame Obama and capitalize as many words as possible, you forgot to read my post. Notice I typed “industry that employs me”. Also pay attention to the fact that I mentioned a bonus check. Those are pretty good signs that I’m employed and not “mooching off the American Tax Payers”. If you can’t deal with a little snark and sarcasm then the internet isn’t for you.

        Sincerely,
        dts187

    • 0 avatar
      icemilkcoffee

      Totally agreed. Right now the price is way low. It behooves all these natural gas corporations to get together and fund some fillling stations.

      One thing they could do is to provide interest free loans to existing gas station owners to purchase the natural gas compressors.

    • 0 avatar
      DC Bruce

      You’re around metro DC, right. Ever seen the Cove Point CNG terminal on the Chesapeake Bay? It dates back to around 1980 when people thought that importing LNG would make economic sense. IIRC, the original owner/builder went bankrupt. In the past 6 or 7 years, roughly, there was talk of taking the thing out of mothballs and using it for its intended purpose. Then “shale gas” hit the market. No more imports, but exports maybe?

      I only tell the story as a good example of the volatility and unpredictability of the energy market . . . and how folks who make huge investments can lose their shirt, and the rest of their clothing, too.

      I do think, for those areas of the U.S. which have natural gas utilities already in place (like metro DC), CNG-powered cars have a future. But for anyone to invest in fueling stations is going to look at 10-year payback periods, and they need to be confident that it will be a business in 10 years.

      While I don’t see a CNG-powered car as a road tripping device, I think its a lot better than an EV. First, it’s got at least twice the range of an EV. Second, it won’t take as long to fill as it will take to recharge an EV. The Honda dealer service stations strikes me as an interesting idea. If the demand for the cars can be stimulated, then other people will add natural gas refueling.

      Another possibility is municipal or fleet users getting in the business. Our city bus fleet in DC runs on CNG. Maybe they should make some side money fueling up cars.

      • 0 avatar
        Luke42

        “I do think, for those areas of the U.S. which have natural gas utilities already in place (like metro DC)”

        And any part of the country that experiences a season called “winter”, and even some places that don’t.

        For instance, I saw a surprising number of natural gas pipes running in to buildings when I was in Orlando recently. Lots of restaurants all over the country use natural gas for the stove, and you can see the plumbing and meter out back.

        The natural gas infrastructure in most of this country, especially “flyover country” like the Midwest and the Mountain West, is pretty extensive.

        The gotcha is that the pressure that my furnace/dryer/water heater (and presumably most restaurant stoves expect) is around 5PSI. That’s not CNG or LNG by any stretch of the imagination, so a pump is required to shove it into a CNG tank. If you had a CNG filling station attached to the same infrastructure that my house uses, you’d probably have a pump that runs almost-continuously to fill a high-pressure buffer tank. And the filler-hoses would be attached to the buffer tank. It’s an engineering challenge could easily be addressed using 50-year-old technology (and maybe much older tech than that), but it’s not free to install.

  • avatar
    Jellodyne

    My home’s natural gas isn’t a compressed, but why can’t I have my ‘charging station’ compress it into a storage tank for rapid refueling of my car? Like in the 8 hours I’m at work?

    • 0 avatar
      dts187

      I believe there is a license required to store CNG that wouldn’t be issued if it’s a residence.

    • 0 avatar
      redmondjp

      Do you really want a tank of 5000psi flammable gas sitting in your garage? Max. fill pressure is 3600psi on the vehicle tank (from what I can tell), so you’re going to need the filling tank pressure to be higher than that.

      You would have to have this tank inspected, tested, and certified on a periodic basis. This would require the tank to be sent out for testing ($$) or tested on-site ($$$).

      Local licensing may be required.

      May not be allowed under existing codes.

      Your insurance company as well as mortage holder may take issue with the idea.

      Oh yeah, I almost forgot about the fire department too. Think they’re having kittens right now just thinking about this.

      Is that enough reasons?

      • 0 avatar
        Toad

        Any regulatory problem can be worked through. Plus, almost everyone has gasoline containers in their garage for lawnmowers, etc, and these end up causing hundreds of fires every year…but we accept the risk.

        Being able to fuel a vehicle at home with CNG will just mean accepting another set of trade offs. Maybe the compressor will have to be outside of the home or garage, maybe it will require inspection. But then, if natural gas was discovered today and somebody proposed piping an explosive gas into almost every home and business in the country they would be laughed at.

      • 0 avatar
        Luke42

        As you point out, there’s already a 3600psi tank of that same flammable gas in the garage. How is having two much more dangerous than one?

        I don’t love having the same flammable gas burned in my furnace, hot water heater, and dryer, either. But I deal with it because not freezing to death is pretty awesome. I could change to electric or geothermal heat, but that would cost thousands of dollars. So, I deal. I don’t really see how CNG for a car is much different considering that, if you buy a CNG car, you already have a high-pressure tank full of flammable gas.

        Also, if anyone thinks that gasoline is really safe, you’re just ignorant. The stuff is volatile, flammable, and explosive. It’s easily ignited by static electricity. You can handle it safely (my dad taught me how), but a lot of people don’t understand it — especially the parts about how important electrical grounding is when it comes to preventing sparks (and fires and explosions). The only reason that normal people can ignore this most of the time is because of a lot of really good engineering in to gas station design and car design. Preventing sparks and controlling vapors isn’t rocket science, but it can turn in to rocket science real quick if you don’t do it right. Without the engineering that you (don’t) see in a modern gas station, you have to manually ground the vehicle that’s being fueled to the fuel-source, the way aircraft are grounded when they’re fueled from a fuel truck. Something to think about the next time you think about filling a gas can that’s sitting on a plastic bedliner in the back of your truck…!

      • 0 avatar
        APaGttH

        A tank of CNG in my house really doesn’t scare me that much. Between a furnace that MIGHT kill me if it traps CO in my house, a wide range of toxic chemicals and cleaning supplies, the pressurized hot water heater (every have one explode/rupture, I did and of course it happened while I was gone from vacation so the continuous flood destroyed the floor and most of the walls in my kitchen and pantry), the stored propane I already have (under pressure), 220VAC running through wiring from 1958 with no ground wires in half the house, the compressed CNG isn’t much of a big issue in my book. The regulations are.

    • 0 avatar
      ClutchCarGo

      Frankly, I’m unnerved by the thought of my neighbor (who can’t even maintain his lawn furniture) having to maintain a CNG filling station in his garage. Uncompressed nat gas has caused the occasional home explosion where I live, with collateral damage to neighboring homes. A high pressure CNG tank in a damp garage subject to bumps by a car is a recipe for “film at 11″.

      • 0 avatar
        APaGttH

        They use to say Edison and his crazy idea of electricity was a recipe for headline in the morning paper too.

        Anytime the fear card is played in my book (be afraid, technology, ooooooo…) is when alarm bells go off in my head.

        No offense to the average hard working and grossly under appreciated American blue collar worker, but Bubba, Floyd, and Daryl tend not to be at the top of their class, hence the blue collar job. And despite their best efforts, the Bubba, Floyd, an Daryls of the continent that work with CNG don’t make too many films at 11. And when they do, its typically because some “educated” guy didn’t listen to the blue collar guy that not fixing this, or ignoring that, or rushing this will result in disaster.

        Case in point, the average American slops gasoline all off a blazing hot lawn mower all over this country instead of waiting for the exhaust to cool down, and yet 99.99999% of them survive to breed. Ugh, now I just scared myself…

    • 0 avatar
      icemilkcoffee

      There is such a device for sale:
      http://www.brcfuelmaker.it/eng/casa/phill.asp?click=no

  • avatar
    Franz K

    Seriously ???

    What ? Honda been hitting the Sakai a bit too hard after all their sales woes of late ?

    Considering how few and far between Honda Dealerships are in any given City / God forbid you should run out of fuel in any rural area / and just what DO you do on Sunday when dealers are closes and you’re needing a Tank Full … like this very minute ( Oh yeah …. tell me none of you’ve never been in that situation ) WTH IS HONDA THINKING ???

    Oh right . Never mind . They’re not ( thinking that is )

    But while on the subject of CNG

    Anyone here paying an Ounce of Attention to all the problems with Fracking of late . Like gee … I dunno … Earthquakes ….. fouled water supplies ( its not theory … its happening as we speak ) all the NGS articles about the damage fracking creates ?

    CNG …. Its a No Go . Just like every other so called ‘ Solution ‘ of late these Bean Counters / Tech Weenie/ Self Obsessed Engineers etc keep coming up with .

    No ( spell that Z-E-R-O ) concern what so ever for the consequences . As long as it makes Somebody money

    Congratulations Folks . Between the Auto Makers , Pharmaceutical companies etc we’ve all been reduced to Two Legged Guinea Pigs / Lab Rats .

    • 0 avatar
      bryanska

      Is this the Puppy Wizard with all that capitalization?

      • 0 avatar
        Franz K

        Good lord , what the heck is/was a Puppy Wizard ?

        Any relation to SnarkKiller or HyundaiSmoke perhaps ?

        eeesh ! Puppy Wizard . Even the sound of that one is just plain wrong !

        So … nope . Not him . Phew !

    • 0 avatar
      dts187

      I can’t tell if the capitalization is due to hysteria or for emphasis. Where can you buy Ounce of Attention and how much does it cost?

      • 0 avatar
        Franz K

        Gee … aint you the welfare fellow up above wanting more ObamaClaus handouts to pad your bank account with ?

        Yeah like that leaves you a whole lot of room to criticize . Try worrying more about your own posts and spend less time criticizing everyone else’s

    • 0 avatar
      chuckrs

      “Anyone here paying an Ounce of Attention to all the problems with Fracking of late . Like gee … I dunno … Earthquakes ….. fouled water supplies ( its not theory … its happening as we speak ) all the NGS articles about the damage fracking creates ?”

      I’ve read articles indicating no problems and others indicating big problems. Do I believe the ones favored and possibly subsidized by the evil resource extraction companies or the ones favored and possibly subsidized by our evil government? Actually a favorite was the EPA report finding NG in water in a 1200M deep well they drilled. A gas company suggested in a subsequent press release that at long last the EPA did something worthwhile – finding a gas field. IIRC, water wells in that area went more like 100M deep, not 1200M, so the gas field was contaminated with water, not the other way around.

    • 0 avatar
      ClutchCarGo

      You bring up an interesting point with the Sunday closure issue, and this could be a stealth initiative for dealers who want to get around forced closures. Hey, we gotta be open to service our CNG customers, and we just open up the showroom to give them a place to sit while they wait. So we need a salesman to make sure that nothing gets stolen.

    • 0 avatar
      Luke42

      @Frank K:

      Clearly a CNG vehicle is not for you at this time. Why are you even reading this article?

      My guess is that Honda Civic GX probably has two markets:
      1. Fleets that operate in a specific area, but still cover a lot of miles. For instance, the maintenance trucks at a university where I used to work were powered by CNG.
      2. Guys like me who will put up with a little bit of an inconvenience in order to experiment with new (and possibly better?) technology.

  • avatar
    charly

    No range anxiety with only 830 fuel stations? If you’re out of fuel you are really out of fuel. It is not like electricity that can be refueled in every home in America

    • 0 avatar
      dts187

      There’s definite range anxiety. Which is why for now CNG vehicles are a niche offering just like a pure EV.

    • 0 avatar
      kvndoom

      Not to mention, unlike gas or diesel, you can’t exactly walk down the road with a canister to get some emergency fuel. Hmmm, maybe that’s a market waiting to be tapped…

    • 0 avatar
      Luke42

      Like most of the houses in my town, my house has natural gas service.

      The problem is shoving it into the car’s tank. It’s not a last mile problem, it’s only a last 4 feet problem!

  • avatar
    blowfish

    CNG were plenty 20 some yrs ago here in the republik of Canuckstan.
    Not sure the real reason, their numbers along with propane vehicles just dying off like Moby Dick!

    Any gas vehicles do have limitations as where u can park, many parkades do brand u as persona non grata, reason should there be any fire, these vehicles can lead to more issues, whereas benzenes were accustomed to for long time.

    I heard some differences

    CNG if leak it goes up, as lighter than air.

    propane sank to bottom.

    CNG needs expensive hardware to compress, most houses do have CNG supply, but at low pressure, so getting enuf in is another expensive proposition.

    Is going back to the same Q. as chicken or eggs come first?

    No business people will invest before its time, if this is a gold mine u think why Warren Buffet, wal mart or costco et al has not been building them yet?

    So as the Oil sand here in Alberta were quite controversial too, atleast there’re enuf folks investing in it.

    • 0 avatar
      OldWingGuy

      I’m a fellow Canuck.
      I believe the motivation for past conversion to propane or more rarely NG, was the gas tax. Our American friends may not realize the amount of tax we Canadians pay on gas (and diesel).
      Also, I would guess part the issue of fewer propane or NG fueled vehicles of late is due to fuel injection. It was quite simple to convert a carburated engine over to propane. With FI and ECU’s, I don’t know how you would do it today. I expect it has to be engineered in from the OEM. But I may be very wrong.
      In Western Canada a home fueled NG system would be entirely possible. We have many detached single-family houses out west (vs high-rise condos), virtually all of which have NG delivery. But rest assured, if enough people switched over to NG, the gov’t would start taxing NG heavily to make up for lost gas tax revenue.
      I don’t think the infrastructure problem is all that daunting. Out west we have many gas stations equipped to handle propane for (mostly) gas BBQ’s. Somehow they seem to manage.

  • avatar
    chazbe

    Hello All,
    Long time reader…First time poster.
    What bothers me about this is Honda saying “It’s not our place to create infrastructure” Why not? They would be on the ground floor of CNG filling stations if they would build their own branded facilities, or could partner with someone like Exxon or Sunoco to add CNG capacity to existing stations. They would not only drive the market to their door but gain a loyal following from the Enviro crowd.

    Yes, in the begining the dollar loss would be high but long term it could be a major win for Honda.

    I pass a CNG station in Pittsburgh on a semi-regular basis, the last time the price was $1.65. I’m not sure of the unit of measure or if that would compare to a gallon of gasoline. With more demand the price would surly drop.

    • 0 avatar
      rudiger

      I don’t think it works that way. I’m no expert but I think the most basic principle of economics is that it’s an increase in supply that causes the price to drop.

      An increase in demand raises the price.

      • 0 avatar
        APaGttH

        Not quite that simple. Four laws of supply and demand (economics 101 – week one).

        1. If demand increases and supply remains unchanged, then it leads to higher equilibrium price and higher quantity.

        2. If demand decreases and supply remains unchanged, then it leads to lower equilibrium price and lower quantity.

        3. If supply increases and demand remains unchanged, then it leads to lower equilibrium price and higher quantity.

        4. If supply decreases and demand remains unchanged, then it leads to higher equilibrium price and lower quantity.

    • 0 avatar
      VA Terrapin

      I think you just answered your question with “in the beginning the dollar loss would be high.” Honda has plenty to worry about with tsunamis, floods, high value of the Yen, heavy exposure to a soft American market and underperformance in emerging markets.

      The alt fuel market is still maturing. Who’s to say that CNG is going to be the next big thing in alt fuel vehicles? Hybrids and diesels are still niche cars, even though the infrastructure to fuel both types of cars is already well established.

  • avatar
    dima

    Why not make adaptor on CNG cars to run on propane? At the end of the day propane must be vaporized to be used in car engine. So CNG and propane should be somewhat interchangeable, if so, there are a lot of places to get propane.

    • 0 avatar
      APaGttH

      Propane is made from crude oil. It solves nothing.

      • 0 avatar
        Michal

        Propane can be made from oil, but it usually isn’t otherwise it would be more expensive than oil, on an energy equivalent basis.

        Where I am, LPG consists of 85% gas extracted from natural gas fields, 15% oil refinery production.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquefied_petroleum_gas

        “LPG is synthesised by refining petroleum or “wet” natural gas, and is usually derived from fossil fuel sources, being manufactured during the refining of crude oil, or extracted from oil or gas streams as they emerge from the ground.”

      • 0 avatar
        shaker

        Propane is an under-utilized byproduct of petroleum production. A significant increase in demand will drive the price upward, making those steaks even more expensive to grill (and a lot of Mobile Homes more expensive to heat).
        Big Oil is behind the push for fracking, so I simply don’t trust their motives – the entire supply and demand model has been turned upside down; there’s no real supply shortage of NG, but the fracking boom accelerates. Why? To grab as many leases as possible (and catering to states needing the near-term economic benefits) before federal regulations are adopted. Unless Obama is defeated, of course, then it’s DRILL BABY DRILL – Yee-HAH!

  • avatar

    I rode a CNG taxi once and asked the driver if he has range enxiety. He said that he mostly worked the airport, which is close to the refueling station, and so he planned the trips to always have some spare. But if ever ran out, it would be tow truck time. Could be $50.

    • 0 avatar
      charly

      But a taxi will probably never take a trip that is more than an hour. So a 250 miles range is enough if you refill it when the range hits a 100 miles.

  • avatar
    Grumpy

    Rest assured CNG is coming, and fast–industry projections are that 30% of North American big rigs will have been converted to CNG by 2014. So at the very least, it will be available at truck stops. Given the large number of houses serviced with NG it would be convenient to fuel up at home overnight–if they can get the cost down to something reasonable.

  • avatar
    redmondjp

    Excellent paper here on the topic of CNG and hydrogen fuel tanks as used in motor vehicles, including some juicy details of actual CNG fuel tank failures:

    http://www.mvfri.org/Contracts/Final%20Reports/CNGandH2VehicleFuelTankPaper.pdf

    Scroll down to Page 12 in the report for pictures of what was left of the CNG-powered Honda after its tank failed.

  • avatar
    John

    I saw a hydrogen fuel cell powered Civic parked by the side of the road in Japan in 2004. Are Honda still working on hydrogen, or was it a dead end?

  • avatar
    shaker

    Hmm – a 300-volt Li-ion battery pack, or a 3,500 PSI fuel tank? Since I’m more familiar with electrical safety, I’ll go with the Energizer Bunny.


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