By on August 27, 2021

General Motors now requires salaried employees operating in the United States to disclose their coronavirus vaccination status. As confirmed by the automaker on Thursday, the decision is supposed to help the company determine what percentage of its own workforce is vaccinated so it can make better decisions about which safety protocols to implement. But your author is under the assumption that “as many as possible” will always be the preferred answer.

Earlier in the month, GM forced all salaried employees to disclose whether or not they were immunized for COVID-19 using the automaker’s internal network. Those answering to the affirmative were required to submit proof of vaccination by last Monday. But it sounds as though the manufacturer is just getting warmed up for more invasive activities. 

According to The Wall Street Journal, which broke the story, GM wants to use the data to determine how it implements future protocols. But it’s not clear exactly how peering into the medical records of its 42,000 staff members is going to help. The current roster of COVID vaccines was not developed with the Delta variant in mind and therefore have lessened effectiveness. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) recently went from suggesting they were near totally effective in preventing Delta to stating the number was probably closer to 66 percent. Though they do help lessen symptoms for at-risk individuals with relevant health issues or who happen to be of advanced age.

“The reporting of our employees’ vaccination status is helping GM Medical assess the overall immunity of our employee population and determine when GM should relax or strengthen certain COVID-19 safety protocols as recommended by the CDC and OSHA, such as mask wearing, physical distancing and facility occupancy rates,” spokeswoman Maria Raynal explained to Automotive News.

“In an effort to improve our data collection, we took the first step with our U.S. salaried employees to put a process in place for mandatory reporting,” she continued. “We will maintain the voluntary reporting of vaccine status and encourage our hourly employees to continue to report in the voluntary system.”

It certainly seems like sound reasoning on the surface. But the CDC literally just said that transmission is still possible among vaccinated individuals — particularly with the Delta strain that’s on the move now. There has also been a gluttony of studies about how cloth masks are ineffective at protecting individuals from spreading or obtaining the virus.

Lisa Brosseau, an industrial hygienist consulting with the University of Minnesota’s Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy, has been campaigning to educate people on the futility of loose-fitting cloth coverings for months. In her estimation, full-blown respirators are the only sure-fire form of physical protection. But she’s one of many researchers making similar claims that ultimately led the CDC to encourage people to improve the fit and filtration — which paved the way for Dr. Anthony Fauci to temporarily push for double masking.

Truth be told, the only thing consistent about the science has been its inconsistency. Messaging has been really bad in regard to COVID and we’ve instituted harsh restrictions that have upended people’s lives and violated their privacy. But multinational corporations feel like they’ll be able to get a handle on things if they can just get a little bit more blind compliance from their employees. Let’s not pretend that GM’s voluntary reporting for blue-collared workers is going to last forever, especially now that they’re mandating vaccine IDs for white-collar staff. The entire pandemic has felt like an exercise in seeing just how much authority governments and corporations could gradually exert over everyone else.

But that’s the nature of things. Idioms like “Give an inch and they’ll take a mile” don’t emerge from nothing and pushing people around who are weaker or dumber than you have been a cornerstone of humanity since we’ve lived in caves and were limited to grunting at each other. A lot of this COVID stuff is even being done with good intentions, unfortunately, those intentions haven’t resulted in doing much more than straining relationships, causing confusion, demolishing productivity, and giving strange new powers to businesses that should really just be focused on building cars.

After all, there’s a global chip shortage that has been negatively impacting production output for months and customer privacy violations happening on a fairly regular basis. But the industry doesn’t care because it’s still managed to be profitable — which explains why automakers are harvesting and selling your private data and the constant insistence those subscription services nobody really likes will eventually be normalized. They don’t even want you to own your personal car in the future. Instead, you’ll enjoy an “ownership experience” requiring a monthly fee.

And yet you’re still supposed to assume they have your best interest at heart in terms of medical requirements.

I know the automotive industry has a history brimming with charming characters, emotional moments, and countless vehicles we have a deep affinity for. It even helped uplift an entire generation by providing good-paying jobs to people that previously didn’t have access. But it’s never really been known for altruism or intentionally heroic behavior. Automakers have repeatedly collaborated with each other, and sometimes the government, to destroy the competition before it manages to get off the ground (e.g. the Tucker 48); is frequently involved in bribery schemes (e.g. Daimler in 2010 and the UAW’s latest corruption scandal); often misleads investors (e.g. Faraday Future, Nikola, and Lordstown Motors); and routinely sells vehicles it knows have safety or reliability issues (e.g. GM Ignition Switch, Takata airbag inflators, and Getrag Ford Transmissions).

Are we seriously going to assume that their demands for personal medical information won’t be similarly mishandled? Are we that trusting of an industry that has a long history of screwing things up and/or acting in a predatory manner?

Let’s wrap by reviewing manufacturers’ preferred ways for coping with COVID.

While the United Auto Workers has been on board with most pandemic-related measures, it pressed pause this week as automakers began discussing vaccine requirements and new forms of identification. On Thursday, UAW President Ray Curry said the union would only support “voluntary measures” to encourage vaccination or survey workers’ vaccination status. Instituting penalties for employees that refused to get vaccinated or share medical information was not off the table, however. Curry just wanted to ensure that negotiations were conducted before those were instituted.

“The level of immunity is an important factor in determining when GM may need to increase or be able to relax or rescind certain COVID-19 safety protocols,” Dr. Jeffrey Hess, GM’s corporate medical director, said this week.

At present, GM’s overarching pandemic plan is looking much like what we’ve seen from Ford. Neither company has a concrete return-to-work timeline for office staff and both believe a flexible approach using shared workspaces is the best strategy. It also happens to be substantially less expensive to operate, something which undoubtedly helps inform its decision. Meanwhile, Ford is considering vaccine mandates while GM is already moving toward compulsory vaccine IDs. But it only pertains to salaried workers that are already allowed to stay home, thereby offering limited infection risks to the rest of the company. Lineworkers that are required to meet up in the same building and breathe all over each other on the daily have no such requirement. If this is all so important and pertained solely to public health, why wouldn’t they have started with employees that actually had direct interactions that might actually spread the virus?

[Image: Michael Urmann/Shutterstock]

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257 Comments on “Opinion: Automakers Are Overstepping Their Boundaries...”


  • avatar
    kcflyer

    “Truth be told, the only thing consistent about the science has been its inconsistency” you could have stopped right there. Now anytime politicians or the media says “science” I just take for granted they are just pressing an agenda. Covid has been such a gift to ruling class, except for the last president, it probably was enough to cost him the election. Will GM pay for unemployment for employees who can prove they have had covid and are thus less likely to get sick? Can employees sue GM when they get infected by a vaccinated coworker? If not, why bother making people get vaccinated to work?

    • 0 avatar
      Fred

      Maybe they want their employees vaccinated so they don’t have to pay the $50,000 hospital visit when they get infected.

      • 0 avatar
        Art Vandelay

        What does treating lung cancer in smokers, brain injuries for motorcycle riders and problems arising from alcohol and overeating cost?

        These too are choices that people make that effect the rates for the rest of the group.

        Why should those making healthy choices in those respect be forced to pay for the people that just can’t resist that pack of reds, handle of Jim Beam or all those delicious chicken wings before climbing on their Harley sans helmet.

        • 0 avatar
          Astigmatism

          Lung cancer isn’t contagious. Of course, second-hand smoke _can_ lead to cancer, which is why employers (and almost all states) forbid smoking in indoor workplaces and near entrances.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            “These too are choices that people make that effect the rates for the rest of the group.”

            Whether one is in a private insurance plan or public system, “we” do pay more due to other people’s choices. Most of us don’t have an issue with that since it’s a personal choice that basically has a negative outcome confined to the person making the poor choice.

            In the case of a pandemic, the choices “we” make or “I” make have a direct effect on everyone I contact. I can chose to drive like a bat out of hell in traffic with my pickup. That affects me and everyone around me. I can take that same pickup to a gravel pit and drive the same way and the only one at risk is me.

      • 0 avatar
        tomLU86

        Every one who test positive from COVID does not get hospitalized, let alone at a cost of $50k. Just like everyone who gets the shot does not die or get extremely ill.

        I hope you don’t object to insurers paying the hospital bills of those who get very ill from the shot, or spend time in the ICU before leaving this world.

        It’s a personal choice, or should be. Now, how employers will navigate that is difficult.

        We already see many FAMOUS people, fully vaxxed coming down with COVID.

        If one is ‘high risk’, it’s probably prudent to take the shot and pray it doesn’t mess them up.

        If one is ‘low risk’, it’s probably prudent to avoid taking the shot and pray they don’t get a bad case of COVID19

        • 0 avatar
          FreedMike

          @tom:

          I don’t object at all to insurance paying out for people who come down with COVID…absolutely not.

          But the pandemic has clearly had a huge impact on medical costs. A good example: at the hospital my girlfriend works at, lots of nurses have thrown in the towel, and as a result, they’re having to spend far more than they normally would on temp “traveling” nurses, or paying out huge bonuses to nurses to work a certain number of hours.

          In the end, health costs are definitely borne by everyone, and the fact that people are just refusing to do something easy, quick and free to help themselves helps drive that cost up.

          This is yet another self inflicted wound that was 100% avoidable, and that just doesn’t compute for me.

        • 0 avatar
          Old_WRX

          Lou_BC,

          ““we” do pay more due to other people’s choices.”

          I assume you are asserting that people who don’t smoke or drink, and eat healthily and exercise, etc. cost the rest of us less because their health costs are less. However, I’ve also heard it said that people who live in an unhealthy way don’t cost us more because they have a shorter life expectancy and therefore will need health care for a shorter time. I suppose this could be so — I’m sure an awful lot of those people who live healthily end up ailing over a number of years due to age related maladies before they (finally) die.

          You allege that the healthy life style people cost less overall for health care. Do you know of any actual studies that show that the long term (i.e, until death) health care cost is less for them?

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            @Old_WRX – insurance costs are related to payouts. The more it costs an insurance company the more they charge for insurance. We all pay more for unhealthy choices.

      • 0 avatar
        EBFlex

        “ Maybe they want their employees vaccinated so they don’t have to pay the $50,000 hospital visit when they get infected.”

        You know what else costs a lot of money? Children. Childbirth and then the constant needs and demands on the companies healthcare costs.

        Imagine a company, as a requirement of their employment, an employee is forced to show that they are sterilized because, you know, it’s cheaper.

        This is a slippery slope and it’s none of an employers business what the status of my healthcare is. This is as ridiculous as Ford and their Orwellian mandates. People need to fight this

        • 0 avatar
          96redse5sp

          Imagine a company with the nerve to require employees to contribute more money for group healthcare plans if they want coverage for their kids. Imagine how well that would go over!

        • 0 avatar
          Old_WRX

          “You know what else costs a lot of money? Children.”

          Spouses on the employees insurance can be expensive, too…

        • 0 avatar
          Old_WRX

          Lou_BC,

          “insurance costs are related to payouts.”

          Exactly, so, all things being equal, the sooner an insured dies the less payouts.

          What I was looking for was hard figures, not just conjecture. Evidence.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            “What I was looking for was hard figures, not just conjecture. Evidence”

            Looks like you’ve assigned yourself some homework. Fly at ‘er!

      • 0 avatar
        GregLocock

        Yup, that’s the argument in Australia. If I go to work and catch Covid, can I then treat it as a workplace injury? The employer knows the risk of injury exists, and has not done best practice (ie compulsory vaccination) to prevent it. Therefore he’s liable.

        The opposing POV is that we don’t do this with the flu, so why should covid be different?

        I have no skin in this game I WFH and have for many years.

      • 0 avatar
        zerofoo

        That is the entire point of medical insurance.

        When I get sick, my employer doesn’t pay any more than the annual schedule of insurance premiums.

        What’s next? Will your boss scold you for smoking, eating donuts and not going to the gym as often as you should?

    • 0 avatar
      Lou_BC

      “Truth be told, the only thing consistent about the science has been its inconsistency”

      Wow…. talk about a loaded statement.

      I take it the author of that line of excrement doesn’t understand what “NOVEL” means when scientists say “NOVEL CORONA VIRUS” ?

      When it comes to “mixed messages” many of the scientists getting microphones stuck in their faces should STFU. They say something based upon the premise that they are dealing with logical individuals that can follow the scientific process and make informed decisions realizing that the science is evolving.

      Unfortunately the USA is stuck in a hyper-partisan environment that makes a mess of any scientific fact based discussion.

      • 0 avatar
        jkross22

        @ Lou,

        “Unfortunately the USA is stuck in a hyper-partisan environment that makes a mess of any scientific fact based discussion.”

        Yup. Hyperpartisan idiocy is more contagious, than, well, you know.

      • 0 avatar
        Yankee

        Lou_BC,
        One again you hit the nail on the head. You must be.a carpenter by trade. Be glad you’re in Canada on this one. The US is proving that Idiocracy was a documentary, not a comedy. Science is just too hard down here – we like nifty slogans and throwing the word “freedom” around. And don’t dare tell us our interstate highways, entire military, and social security program are some of the largest socialist enterprises in the world – we hate that term. I generally just ignore anything with Posky’s byline, it’s all just clickbate from a butthurt supporter of the idiot we had at the helm for the past four years who made us the laughing stock of the world and who denied there was a problem, then was himself a victim of the problem (requiring a ventilator and medical interventions no normal person could ever get), and then did something amazing and threw a ton of resources at it and got a working vaccine in record time. But instead of taking credit for the one thing he did right (albeit only after the reality was forced upon him), he continues to stoke the fires of ignorance among people like our wanna-be author. Meanwhile if you smoke, you pay higher insurance for your stupid habit and can’t do it in the workplace anymore. Same should be true of those who won’t accept over 200 years of vaccine science: charge them more for health insurance and stick a swab up their nose every day. (They’re all mouth-breathers anyway, so it shouldn’t be a problem.)

        • 0 avatar
          EBFlex

          “ Lou_BC,
          One again you hit the nail on the head. You must be.a carpenter by trade. Be glad you’re in Canada on this one. ”

          Oh you’re one of them. The people that blindly follow whatever their governmental overlords say and have a complete absence of critical thought.

          You scream “trust the science” yet the science has changed over and over and over throughout the past 18 months. You don’t acknowledge that though, you rather just attack people for having the audacity of pointing it out.

          You blindly group anyone that is hesitant into some Neanderthal anti vaccination crowd. You are incapable of understanding that being anti vaccines and being vaccine hesitant but getting it, being vaccine hesitant and not getting it, and being pro vaccine and getting it but also being pro personal rights are wildly different things.

          You people never argue the latter. You are throwing a tantrum at the author and then go on a tiraid against the President that got thre vaccines in less than 9 months (which were being worked on far longer than after he got it). You claimed he denied there was a problem yet completely ignore the WHO when they stated there was no possibility of human to human transmission or when USA Today ran a headline on February 19th 2020 that said “ Top disease official: Risk of coronavirus in USA is ‘minuscule’; skip mask and wash hands”..they were quoting Fauci. You ignore that buffoon Biden and Kackling Kamala when they were casting strong doubt on the vaccines and essentially telling people not to get it.

          You people are incapable of answering basic questions that reasonable people have regarding masks, the vaccine, etc. You don’t want to hear that the antibodies from having Covid are far better than the vaccine. You lash out and throw a tantrum when faced with things like that. Same when it comes to the liberals other favorite bogeyman—global warming.

          The science isn’t hard when the science is actual science. But our government has lost its ability to be trusted. That’s not my fault. As a governmental body, when you are more concerned with and impeach over fake Russia allegations or the president saying “go down and exercise your right to protest” while cities burn and the entire world falls apart because of your sheer incompetence (ok just the USA and Afghanistan) it’s hard for reasonable people to trust you. And then when they don’t, you cannot act shocked.

          • 0 avatar
            Yankee

            EBFlex:

            Thank you so much for illustrating my point so beautifully!

            “Oh, you’re one of them.” That translates to me as “you don’t like the orange carnival barker and pathological liar who is my lord and savior, so you must be an ultra-liberal Biden supporter!” You have grouped me (wrongly) into the ultra-liberal camp, and then go on to cry about how I supposedly did the same.

            First things first, I am not a Biden supporter. I don’t support Black Lies Matter (who ignore all the people getting killed on a daily basis and only cry foul when some idiot commits suicide by cop) or other liberal-minded groups. I do not believe in all the rent relief and unlimited unemployment the Dems are trying to keep pushing through so people can avoid working. I have worked all my life since I was 18 — which is why I have no respect for a man who has failed at every single business he has ever started on his own due to his blatant stupidity (e.g., airline, wine, steaks, clothing, university, even a casino for god’s sake!) and only has money because daddy gave him real estate. Not my kind of guy. I prefer people who work for a living and actually learned some things along the way. Along with George F. Will, I used to identify as a conservative, before the Tea Party and other lunatics took the group over and lowered it to what it is now.

            Trump absolutely deserves credit for developing the vaccines in record time. Then he got them after a Covid infection that would have killed him without medical intervention. But then he failed to promote them or show himself getting them after all that effort? Why? Because he knew his die-hard supporters would never change their minds. When he recently urged people to get the vaccine at one of his rallies, they booed him!

            Science changes over time, which is why you have to take the long view. I didn’t jump to get the vaccine the minute they were available. But after weighing the data and pros and cons, I decided it was in my best interest and civic duty to do so. (Of course, being from PA, I had to wait in line behind smokers and obese people who don’t care about their health due to the dictates of a pediatrician in drag who was responsible for epidemiologic decision making (and people wonder why I don’t support liberals).

            Under Trump, we lost many government scientists because they didn’t want to work for big brother. They had dedicated their lives to pursing science and helping others (you make way less money in the public sector), but were told to lie. The most egregious example was when the CDC was told to say that if you had knowingly been exposed to someone who has Covid, you didn’t have to get tested. That was truly a scary 1984-like moment.

            As for Posky, I criticize because this is a car site, but for some reason the editors keep letting this hack peddle his conspiracy theories and political agenda. Look at all the comments this article has gotten! It’s clickbate at it’s worst. I miss the old days of good-natured arguing over car technology, features, or repair, and trading stories of triumph and tragedy in ownership and repair. I have learned a lot from many of the commentators on here, you included. For example, 28-cars-later has made some great contributions that made me really think. Then Posky or some other idiot puts up a political football and 28 goes ballistic and is reduced to hurling insults. I’m not on any social media echo chamber like Facebook. I come here for news and insights about the industry I have been a part of (in many different ways) for over 30 years. I miss talking about cars.

          • 0 avatar
            EBFlex

            “ That translates to me as “you don’t like the orange carnival barker and pathological liar who is my lord and savior, so you must be an ultra-liberal Biden supporter!” You have grouped me (wrongly) into the ultra-liberal camp, and then go on to cry about how I supposedly did the same.”

            I actually did not insinuate any of that. I haven’t grouped you in with any political party. I grouped you in with the insane likes of Lou MR, FreedMike (ironic name considering he’s flatly against any sort of individual freedom) and Apagtth. I will admit that may have been a bit uncharitable as you seem to be a reasonable person with mostly reasonable views.

            But your ability to ignore basic facts to push a hate-filled opinion on president Trump and his endless accomplishments is unfortunate. Let’s look at your claim that “ who denied there was a problem, then was himself a victim of the problem (requiring a ventilator and medical interventions no normal person could ever get), and then did something amazing and threw a ton of resources at it and got a working vaccine in record time. But instead of taking credit for the one thing he did right (albeit only after the reality was forced upon him)”.
            So much of that is flatly untrue. How did he deny there was a problem? He stopped travel from China very early on, he worked to get ventilator production from companies that have no business making ventilators (turns out we didn’t need ventilators as all the experts got that wrong). He announced Operation Warp Speed on May 25th 2020…long before he caught Covid (like you asserted). What about that fulfills your claim that he denied there was a problem? He was ahead of all the partisan experts like Fauci every step of the way.

            Lastly, you claim he was on a ventilator. He never was despite having a severe case of Covid. Yes he received aggressive treatment—he’s the President of the United States. I expect any president that becomes ill to be treated aggressively regardless of political affiliation.

            Please get the facts right before making claims. Otherwise you’re as laughable as Lou MR and FreedMike

          • 0 avatar
            96redse5sp

            @EBFlex.

            OMFG! “Government overlords”?!? You guys will take horse de-worming meds pushed by the Tea Party Patriots, but are frightened of a vaccine that’s recommended by every reputable healtcare agency on the planet and which has been administered hundreds of millions of times.

            And aside from a few buildings, can you give us a list of some of those cities that burned? Are you including DC on January 6 as one of those cities that burned?

      • 0 avatar
        zerofoo

        I’m not sure this thing is as “Novel” as claimed.

        Pre-existing immunity to COVID-19 has been observed in unexposed populations:

        https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33582369/

        The line that “no one is immune to COVID-19” is demonstrably false.

        • 0 avatar
          Lou_BC

          @zerofool – I take it you don’t read what you post?

          “Conclusion and discussion: The high percentage of unexposed healthy subjects with a pre-existing immunity suggests that a part of the Ecuadorian population is likely to have SARS-CoV-2 reactive T-cells.”

          They suspect exposure to a coronavirus that resembles SARS-COV-2.

          A small sample of people in Ecuador isn’t much of a sample size to jump to any major conclusions.

    • 0 avatar
      Ol Shel

      YES! Fear those who seek facts by conducting experiments to determine actual conditions.

      It’s so much better to trust your feelings.

      How else would you end up with a life-long con man who instigated an attack to overturn our democratic elections?

      Feelings, baby!

  • avatar
    jimmy2x

    I rarely post here but the whole “invasion of privacy “ theme really ticks me off. I’m old enough to remember the scourge of polio when I was a boy. When Jonas Salk developed the vaccine, everyone got it. Not surprisingly, polio was wiped out. Now every jackass with internet access gets to bloviate about invasion of privacy or some other bullshit. Common sense seems to no longer be the norm.

    • 0 avatar
      EBFlex

      -The first polio epidemic in the US was in 1875.
      -In 1935 early vaccine trials started.
      -In 1954 mass vaccine trials start in the US.
      -In 1955 the vaccine is suspended because “The full review concluded that 11 people died from the vaccine and hundreds were paralyzed.”
      -In 1960 a vaccine was fully licensed for type 1 with vaccines coming for type 2 and 3 shortly after.

      So, clearly, this is not comparable to the polio vaccine. There was a 60 year gap from the first epidemic and the first vaccine trial and an 85 year gap between first epidemic and a licensed vaccine.

      It was also suspended because 11 people have died. How many have died from the rushed covid vaccines?

      And the biggest issue is personal choice. It’s not that people are anti vaccines or worried about privacy. It’s choice. I should not be forced to have something injected into me to live my life. Especially one that was rushed into development. Especially when antibodies are FAR more effective at fighting off covid than the rushed vaccines. This isn’t hard to understand.

      • 0 avatar
        tomLU86

        @EBFlex

        Thanks for the timeline on the polio vaccine.

        A co-worker who refuses to the take the shot (which surprised me!) cited the polio shot and the ‘hundreds who were paralyzed’.

        Fauci et al cite the polio shot. To some one like me, who learned about Sabin and Salk as child and how they prevented polio, that might be effective.

        The fact remains that there is probably no one who has had the COVID shot even a year. So we cannot know the long-term effects at this time.

        We do know thousands have died from these shots, and many thousands more have become very ill.

        So it’s a personal choice.

        If the vaccines work and “severely reduce the effects”, then why should the vaccinated worry about the unvaxed?

        One concern: if some one unvaxxed needs a blood transfusion, and they can’t get “unvaxxed” blood.

        • 0 avatar
          Lou_BC

          “We do know thousands have died from these shots, and many thousands more have become very ill.”

          2 vaccine adverse events per million people as opposed to 1,600 deaths per million for COVID-19.

  • avatar
    Lie2me

    I had to disclose my vax status for my job, I also had to take a drug test and background check when I got the job. Employment at will means just that, if you want to work there you go by their rules

    • 0 avatar
      Matt Posky

      Their having the power to do those things doesn’t make it right.

      • 0 avatar
        28-Cars-Later

        Laws are for the little people.

      • 0 avatar
        Lou_BC

        @Matt Posky – you are saying that an employer doesn’t have the right to know if their new hire is a drug addict, has a criminal record, or perhaps is at a greater risk of spreading a disease?

        Times have changed. It used to be conservative types that were all in favour of “pee in a cup” management.

        I work with the public in a professional capacity. I have to get routine criminal record checks to keep my professional license. I have to prove up to date vaccinations unless medically exempt. Covid-19 vaccination isn’t yet a requirement but I have to prove flu vaccination or wear a mask during “flu season”.

        • 0 avatar
          Matt Posky

          So it’s fine now that Republicans changed their tune a decade ago and Democrats now want a medical police state?

          I’m an independent, party affiliation is largely meaningless to me.

          An employer will found out that their new hire is a drug addict when they come into work and do a terrible job because they’re too high to work. I also believe criminals who have served their time deserve to make a living. Otherwise, they’ll just go back to doing crime.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            @Matt Posky –

            A medical police state?
            LOL

            My point is that all of a sudden we have COVID-19 and mask mandates and you become a social warrior?

            I don’t recall you ever complaining about any of this in the past.

            Oh and a decade ago? Citations required……

            I do agree that if one has paid their “debt to society” that should be off limits to an employer but criminal record checks also look for “red flag” issues like criminal affiliations. All I have to show is a pass or fail. The same if I want to volunteer at a school. You wouldn’t want a known pedophile around your kids?

            Nice play on words. Perhaps you should have put that much thought into your article. Maybe you did…. clicks being clicks….

          • 0 avatar
            mcs

            “A medical police state?”

            Do all of those oppressive “employees must wash hands” signs contribute to the medical police state? How dare an employer force a restaurant worker to inflict harm on the natural biome residing on their hands. Police state!

          • 0 avatar
            FreedMike

            “Medical police state”?

            Quick, dear, pass me my smelling salts. I feel faint.

          • 0 avatar
            APaGttH

            I have been belittled by far better EICs than you.

            I can’t believe I’m sitting back right now relishing being a target of Bertel Schmitt’s ire.

            If it wasn’t for clicks and this is your POV – it is quite frankly even more dangerous.

            Schmitt’s sin was being too cozy with a certain auto manufacturer (something mentioned by Jack B.) and being too full of his own hubris.

            My free advice is to learn from his mistakes.

            As to your comment of weak minded and afraid.

            I have been covering COVID as a journalist for 18 months. I have interviewed Dr. Anthony Fauci, multiple state health officials across the United States, and experts in epidemiology, emergency medicine, and infectious disease. I have the state and county DoH on speed dial and we are under contract with the DoH.

            Our board of directors includes a licensed, practicing physician in emergency medicine. We have a team of 3 researchers who read, cover to cover, white papers, journal articles, and studies, write summaries, and submit them for review.

            My wife is an anesthesiologist at a level one trauma hospital, an associate professor in anesthesiology, and has been intubating COVID patients since March of 2020. I have watched her love of career, her love of medicine, her love of being a professor, destroyed over the last 18 months by the endless parade of patients. For the last six months, over 90% of those cases were 97% preventable.

            She has been called a crisis actor, a government agent, accused of coming to kill people, and had patients look her in eyes and demand to see an oncologist for their “sudden onset lung cancer,” because COVID is a hoax.

            My best friend, a battle buddy, died of heart failure (not COVID related) and his wife could not be with him. She has Type I diabetes and is immunocompromised, and in March of 2021, the hospital would not authorize her to come into the building. He had no memorial service, he had no funeral.

            My mother spent five weeks and one day in three different hospitals with COVID in the summer of 2020 and then had to go to long-term care. Within 14 weeks of her release, she had two strokes, and she now has seizures. She is a COVID long hauler.

            Earlier this week, a patient arrived in a hospital in the eastern part of our state with a bowel obstruction and sepsis. They needed surgery. No facility on the eastside could take the patient. They tried for 7 hours to find a location and the hospital where my wife works finally found a facility that could do the surgery and had an open ICU bed. It was too late. Do you know what it’s like to die from sepsis? The amount of pain and suffering they went through?

            90% of patients in our state being treated for COVID are unvaccinated. 97% in the ICU are unvaccinated. 98% that are on ventilators are unvaccinated. Our acute care beds are at 87% capacity, our ICU beds are just under 90% capacity.

            If being educated and informed makes you a “coward” or “fearful,” what I’m reading in your comments is a lot of projection.

            This website was created literally to be a death watch for General Motors. General Motors is a publicly-traded global corporation that answers to its shareholders and is responsible for producing a profit. General Motors answers to its employees and being able to maintain safe operations as a business. When I went to college and took Economics 101 I was taught this is called capitalism.

            You can’t build cars, sorry, trucks and SUVs with a smattering of cars, with a factory full of sick employees. The bean counters at General Motors know this and in the United States Jacobson v Massachusetts (SCOTUS 1905) closed the door on this issue. Someone put a lot of numbers into an Excel spreadsheet and calculated the loss of employees walking out the door was a lower price to pay than impact to production. The end.

            To even imply there should be government regulatory intervention to address the employee safety decisions of a business that go beyond OSHA standards, isn’t brave libertarianism. Do you know what it is called when the workers make decisions as a collective to seize the means of production?

            How ironic.

            Wear a mask, don’t wear a mask, make an ivermectin milkshake with a Zinc chaser for all I care. What you call overreach is called capitalism. The United States has spent 40+ years convincing its citizens that unions are bad, right to work is the way to go. Freedom! The funny thing about deregulation is everyone is for it right up to the second it bites them in the ass.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            @APaGttH – well said.

            But according to Posky, you and your wife are fools and cowards since you disagree with him.

          • 0 avatar
            FreedMike

            “An employer will found out that their new hire is a drug addict when they come into work and do a terrible job because they’re too high to work.”

            Really? You don’t think folks with substance abuse problems can’t cover their problems at work? Oh, yes, they can, and they do. In fact, take it from someone with three recovering drunks/druggies in his family – they’re typically very good at it. I had no idea my mom was a drunk until I was 14. My parents had no idea my deceased younger brother, who ran the family business, was a cocaine addict until his dealer showed up at his door – and the restaurant’s – looking for money. Neither me nor my employer at the time had any idea the woman who sat two cubes away from me was stealing peoples’ identities and selling them to support her coke habit.

            And their employers have EVERY right to know if they’re using BEFORE they show up to work and hurt themselves, or someone else, or steal to support their habit.

            Stick to the faux Ayn Rand pseudo-intellectual noodling.

          • 0 avatar
            FreedMike

            @APaGttH:

            God bless your wife. My girlfriend is a NICU nurse, and she tells a similar story about people in her hospital leaving left and right because they literally can’t take the BS and overwork anymore. I’m just thankful she got an exemption from working directly with COVID patients – she takes Humira, and her doctor told her not to expose herself.

            This is literally life and death stuff.

            Meanwhile, Matt’s undies are in a bunch because he knows people in the auto industry who feel that getting the shot is just too oppressive handed and are considering quitting. Why, those poor, poor dears. Maybe they should do a ride-along with your wife sometime.

          • 0 avatar
            EBFlex

            “ I have been belittled by far better EICs than you.

            I can’t believe I’m sitting back right now relishing being a target of Bertel Schmitt’s ire”

            Good God get this dude a violin.

            That’s a great sob story but at the end of the day it’s clear you are being driven by a political agenda and are fine having your right stripped away because of lies from politicians. You join a number of tantrum throwers on this site that recoil in horror at someone who shows an ability to think for themselves. Your inability to answer basic and reasonable questions is noted as is your ability to attack vs have a discussion. It’s how you started your sob story.

            You don’t address the vast amount of inconsistencies regarding this covid cold since it started, the flip flopping from Fauci the Fraud, the fact that a notable epidemiologist has said—this month—that masks don’t work. You believe what you want and you don’t let facts get in the way. You paint this as some sort of political thing when, for most of us, politics have no bearing on our thoughts and concerns.

            Lastly, it’s great that your wife has a job where she injects people with propofol and then simply intubates them, but stop making it like she’s one step below Fauci. It would be like claiming you know everything about driving because you have a riding lawn mower. Not quite the same thing.

          • 0 avatar
            FreedMike

            Now hear this: EB knows more than a MD.

            Do us all a favor and take a hike, fool.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            @EBFlex – what’s your experience with intubation? Death and dying?

            @APaGttH speaks from experience. Do you?

            Keep up the trolling. With guys like Posky fighting for your freedumb, you are safe to say all sorts of bullsh!t.

          • 0 avatar
            EBFlex

            “ Now hear this: EB knows more than a MD.

            Do us all a favor and take a hike, fool.”

            Where did I say that? Oh right, I didn’t. You’re making things up again. Got it.

            “EBFlex – what’s your experience with intubation? Death and dying?

            @APaGttH speaks from experience. Do you?”

            Yes actually….I do. Very familiar with intubation and death and dying.

            “Keep up the trolling. With guys like Posky fighting for your freedumb, you are safe to say all sorts of bullsh!t.”

            Funny how you claim what I say is BS but you can’t answer very simple questions that I have. And why don’t you move somewhere that has less freedom (spelled correctly and not like a luddite) like Afghanistan, North Korea, China, etc? Canada is a laughing stock and your man-child joke of a leader isn’t helping but I would imagine Canada is too free even for you. You clearly thrive under oppressive control. You should really move. Maybe to a country where your “girlfriend” has to be covered from head to toe and could be brutally beaten or even executed because what she cooked “didn’t taste good”.

            I’ll take freedom over that any day.

          • 0 avatar
            FreedMike

            @EB:

            You just showed up to s**t on another man’s wife from the safety of the internet.. You are a troll and your opinions matter only to yourself. Like I said…take a hike.

          • 0 avatar
            SoCalMikester

            what about the functioning addict who is also stealing from the company to support his habit?

        • 0 avatar
          28-Cars-Later

          Canadian laws may differ but there are all sorts of statutes on questions/data employers are legally allow to ask. I’m not sure on the criminal record but anything with legal and I believe illegal drug abuse can fall under the ADA and is thus an illegal question.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            @28-Cars-Later – there’s a bunch of stuff that is protected by human rights laws. Our laws are more protective than those in the USA.

            Criminal records would depend on the job. I’m in a position of public trust so in that case, yes, they can ask. If I was seeking employment as general labour at a construction site then that is off limits.
            One cannot discriminate based on health conditions unless there’s a direct correlation to the job. Employers have set limits on “legal” drug use. You can’t come to work with alcohol on board as an example and there are many placing restrictions on cannabis.

            There haven’t been any mandates yet in Canada for COVID-19 vaccinations. Our laws are more protective than those in the USA. That doesn’t stop governments from adjusting legislation though. We have a federal election coming up. It will be interesting to see how candidates field that question.

          • 0 avatar
            FreedMike

            @28:

            Can your employer ask whether you’re taking drugs? I don’t know. But they most certainly require you to be tested as a condition for employment. Far as I know, that’s settled law, and it’s completely reasonable as far as I’m concerned.

          • 0 avatar
            28-Cars-Later

            I think in the offer contract they can mandate a drug test and that’s also where they probably put the language for random drug tests (they also put this language in their employee handbooks no one reads). But the issue of *prescription* drug abuse is a bit more murky, that is where you are prescribed to a med but are abusing it (opiods, stimulants etc).

      • 0 avatar
        jkross22

        @ Matt, you don’t think a private company should know whether a potential employee has a criminal history, is on a terrorist watch list, has a chemical addiction, has a history of domestic violence, etc and as such, could become violent at work?

        Yeah, that’s a terrible idea!

      • 0 avatar
        Luke42

        @Matt Posky:
        “Their having the power to do those things doesn’t make it right.”

        Republicans have been campaigning for companies to have this kind of power over their employees for decades. Two examples of this are Right To Work laws (you can fire anyone for any reason) and Burwell v. Hobby Lobby Stores, Inc. (your employer can make decisions about your medical care).

        These are Conservative America’s rules.

        If you don’t like these rules, perhaps you should encourage conservative politicians to change them.

        • 0 avatar
          28-Cars-Later

          “Burwell v. Hobby Lobby Stores, Inc. (your employer can make decisions about your medical care).”

          Yet you probably think its OK if the employer decides to force a shot of mystery in your arm, don’t you?

    • 0 avatar
      mcs

      Here are the medical standards for pilots that the FAA requires before issuing a medical certificate for a license. Last I checked, airlines were requiring that their pilots be licensed. How many of you are ready to write your congressman to have them eliminate medical requirements for pilots?

      https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/offices/aam/ame/guide/standards/

      • 0 avatar
        FreedMike

        @mcs:

        Absolutely – all these FAA regs are like Kristallnacht for pilots. Fight the power!!!

        (By the way, I mentioned above that I’ve sat in on AA meetings – one of the best talks I heard was from an airline pilot who flew for DECADES drunk off his a**. If that’s not enough to you scare you pissless, I don’t know what is.)

  • avatar
    MrIcky

    “Truth be told, the only thing consistent about the science has been its inconsistency.”

    *This is not accurate, the science has been consistent with some changes in implementation of some of the elements. Get vaccinated, social distance, wear a mask. This has always been the advice. The only real change has been whether to wear a mask if your vaccinated. But I think you know this, you’re just trying to get clicks and I fell for it.

    “A lot of this COVID stuff is even being done with good intentions, unfortunately, those intentions haven’t resulted in doing much more than straining relationships, causing confusion, demolishing productivity, and giving strange new powers to businesses that should really just be focused on building cars.”

    *”this COVID stuff” – the COVID stuff has not strained relationships, caused confusion, etc. anywhere CLOSE to what actual COVID has done. Losing family members, losing people you have done business with, etc. Ya that’s nothing compared to the horrendous suffering of being asked to wear a mask and having to dine outdoors.

    “Which explains why automakers are harvesting and selling your private data and the constant insistence those subscription services nobody really likes will eventually be normalized. They don’t even want you to own your personal car in the future. Instead, you’ll enjoy an “ownership experience” requiring a monthly fee.”

    *How is this even remotely the same as requiring a card that says you’ve been vaccinated. Won’t even get into hippa and such, I’ll just point out that this analogy is clumsy and hackish.

    “And yet you’re still supposed to assume they have your best interest at heart in terms of medical requirements.”

    *whether what they care about is their employees health or trying to get back to business as normal as quickly as possible may not make much difference here- it equates to the same thing. Get vaccinated and prove it.

    “Lineworkers that are required to meet up in the same building and breathe all over each other on the daily have no such requirement.”

    *I’d argue that the lineworkers in most cases have greater social distance then office workers do, but ya- require it here too.

    • 0 avatar
      Steve Biro

      “Truth be told, the only thing consistent about the science has been its inconsistency.”

      And what if I told you – frightening though it may be for some – that it’s okay to change your mind or change strategy/tactics in the presence of new information?

      Besides.. .as MrIcky writes: “The science has been consistent with some changes in implementation of some of the elements. Get vaccinated, social distance, wear a mask. This has always been the advice. The only real change has been whether to wear a mask if your vaccinated.”

      • 0 avatar
        Lou_BC

        “Truth be told, the only thing consistent about the science has been its inconsistency.”
        *********************************************************************
        “In the United States, the Committee of the American Public Health Association ( APHA) issued measures in a report to limit large gatherings. The committee held that any type of gathering of people, with the mixing of bodies and sharing of breath in crowded rooms, was dangerous. Nonessential meetings were to be prohibited.”

        “The more restrictive methods of infection control issued by public health departments were quarantines and the isolation of the ill.”

        “They sought to prevent infection by breaking the channels of communication such as droplet infection by sputum control.”

        “The gauze mask was another prevention method using similar ideas of contagion and germ theory.”

        *******These were measures implemented in 1918.********

        https://virus.stanford.edu/uda/fluresponse.html

        Not much has changed in 100 years other than social media and alternative reality news sites spreading bullsh!t faster than Delta Covid-19.

    • 0 avatar
      jkross22

      The science has been consistent and gets updated with new data. The problem isn’t the science. The problem is the people reporting it.

      Fauci is the poster child for this and Wallensky isn’t far behind.

      Getting angry at ordinary people for coming to different conclusions when we have national health leaders shooting their own legs off is misdirecting your frustrations.

      • 0 avatar
        Lou_BC

        @jkross22 – Many of the so called medical leaders are very poor at speaking to the public. They don’t know how to present a simple, clear, consistent message. Yesterday Dr. Michael Osterholm was quoted by anti-masker’s because of the poorly worded interview he gave. I’ve seen that multiple times in the USA since COVID hit. There are many people as you point out that aren’t to blame but them again, many are.

        • 0 avatar
          jkross22

          @ Lou,

          You’re letting Fauci, Wallensky and the others off the hook. Most appear to be comfortable speaking in public. They have a hard time not overstepping their bounds, overplaying their hands and rationalizing their lying when called on it.

          I can’t speak to Osterholm’s quote, but I don’t pay attention to the anti-maskers so it didn’t hit my news feed.

          I have no doubt there are docs who aren’t good public speakers and have misspoken as a result. I’m talking about local and national leaders that either aren’t following the science or are slicing off the science that doesn’t contort to how they see the world.

          These people need to go, as they’re further damaging the public trust.

          • 0 avatar
            EBFlex

            “ I can’t speak to Osterholm’s quote, but I don’t pay attention to the anti-maskers so it didn’t hit my news feed.”

            He said it on CNN

      • 0 avatar
        EBFlex

        “ Fauci is the poster child for this and Wallensky isn’t far behind.

        Getting angry at ordinary people for coming to different conclusions when we have national health leaders shooting their own legs off is misdirecting your frustrations.”

        People like Lou MR and Co can’t handle admitting that anything their Saint Fauci has said is wrong. But you are 100% correct. Hesitancy comes from these idiots at the top that cannot give us a cohesive message. Frankly it started with the WHO when they sent the tweet saying that there is no way Covid can spread person to person. Then there was this headline over a month later from USA Today: “ Top disease official: Risk of coronavirus in USA is ‘minuscule’; skip mask and wash hands”. That top disease official was Fauci.

        Then there was the “you’re racist if you say this came out of the lab in Wuhan it came from a nearby wet market that sold bats”. We found out later that indeed that wet market doesn’t even sell bats and maybe we shouldn’t trust what China says about the China virus. It did come from the lab. It’s a virus that was made during gain of function research. It has hallmarks that cannot be found in nature. Then it was masking despite the science saying they don’t work, then it was the urgent need for ventilators that we didn’t need, then it was mask mandates which, after being implemented, case numbers SKYROCKETED showing that masks don’t work, then it was lambasting certain treatments because of who was advocating to use them yet they were totally effective, then the Buffon Biden and Kackling Kamala and their anti vaccine remarks because…..”President Trump” and in and on and on.

        Gee I wonder why people are skeptical?

  • avatar
    Astigmatism

    I’m not sure what turnip truck Posky just fell off of that left him thinking that anyone is “supposed to assume they have your best interest at heart in terms of medical requirements.” GM and Ford, like all private businesses, have _their own_ interest at heart, and their own interest is best met by having a functioning, healthy work force.

    My company has mandated that people be vaccinated before coming into the office, and mandated that people wear masks in common areas like hallways, etc. – not because it likes us and wants us to fully actualize our potential as happy, special snowflakes, but because it will lose a bunch of money if large numbers of us get sick. This isn’t that complicated.

    • 0 avatar
      SCE to AUX

      +1; well said.

    • 0 avatar
      Matt Posky

      I’m always amazed how often people default to “private companies can do what they want.” The article doesn’t assume automakers care about you, it asserts the exact opposite and recommends everyone keep that in mind. The point is that they’re overstepping their boundaries and have already made decisions that have saved the industry money. People working from home was a blessing in disguise for automakers’ bottom line.

      • 0 avatar
        Astigmatism

        Companies can’t do whatever they want. They are constrained by anti-discrimination laws, HIPAA, and a host of other laws and regulations; it’s just that none of those prohibit companies from requiring their employees be vaccinated, or inquiring about their employees’ vaccination status. Your assertion that this is past some sort of boundary is nothing more than that: your assertion. Lots and lots of companies have done the same or more, and most employees appear to be fine with it, as they also want to know that their employer is doing whatever can be done to limit their chances of getting sick.

        And you’re the one who posited that we were “supposed to assume they have your best interest at heart in terms of medical requirements,” not me. Don’t get mad at us for knocking down your straw man.

        • 0 avatar
          Matt Posky

          I’m sure the pharmaceutical companies and giant, soulless multinationals appreciate your support.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            His point still stands. They adhere to the letter of the law. These corporations would not be initiating these measures if their lawyers said they could not.

            Ironically, we see areas of the USA with the highest vaccination rates and adherence to various safety measures concomitantly having the highest productivity rates and are the closest to being at a pre-COVID-19 personal and financial state.

            Isn’t that the end goal?

            This a pandemic… kinda like an epidemic but global. One needs to get over the “I” and “me” and focus on the “us” and “we”. The USA became the greatest power in the world based on shared goals and self-sacrifice. that’s how world wars were won and countries get built.

          • 0 avatar
            FreedMike

            “Giant, soulless multinationals”…

            Here’s a newsflash…those soulless multinationals make all the products you write about for a living, at least when you’re not too busy comparing their worker-safety policies to the Cultural Revolution.

            Wow…

          • 0 avatar
            jkross22

            @ Lou,

            Our government is mostly run by lobbyists filling campaign war chests and writing legislation. Large companies have no problem adhering to the letter of the law because it’s their lobbyists that help write it. How do you think ACA got kneecapped by excluding M4A? The insurance industry lobbied hard to keep their gravy train running and our former president had no problem going along with the grift.

            This isn’t tin foil conspiracy clap – this is how business is done in DC.

      • 0 avatar
        jkross22

        @ Matt,

        What do you mean companies are overstepping their boundaries? It’s their company. It becomes a choice to their customers, vendors and employees if they want to continue to work there.

        If a restaurant demands I show proof of vaccination, even though I’m vaccinated, I’m moving on. I have no desire to support that kind of political posturing when all I want is a burrito and habanero salsa.

        • 0 avatar
          Lou_BC

          @jkross22 – I’ve heard of anti-mask and anti-vax people threaten to boycott restaurants and other businesses that won’t let people in without masks or proof of vaccination. That isn’t very effective if you consider that these people are boycotting a place that won’t let them in anyways!

          • 0 avatar
            jkross22

            @ Lou,

            That’s true!

            But I won’t go there on principle. This approach – only letting ‘your’ people in – is corrosive to society. I know the rationalization is safety, but there’s ways to follow the science without giving everyone the bird.

            It’s gross.

          • 0 avatar
            FreedMike

            @JK:

            I think if an establishment is allowed to enforce the “no shoes-no service” rule, then they’re certainly allowed to not allow unmasked patrons, at a bare minimum.

      • 0 avatar
        Luke42

        @Matt Posky:
        “I’m always amazed how often people default to ‘private companies can do what they want.\'”

        That’s because the ideas that private companies can do what they want has been the party line for decades.

        Environmental damage? Private companies can do what they want.

        Unfair hiring/firing practices? Private companies can do what they want.

        Preventing their employees from receiving birth control? Private companies can do what they want.

        Now that companies are doing something you don’t like, suddenly you guys are all in favor of regulation all of the sudden.

        [Shrug]

        • 0 avatar
          Jeff Semenak

          “Preventing their employees from receiving birth control? Private companies can do what they want.”
          I think, this is a gross mis-characterization. If it’s medically necessary, it is covered.
          Medication, is prescribed to alleviate/cure a condition. Birth Control to prevent Pregnancy takes a functional organ and, stops it from working properly. Not quite the same thing, is it. It’s certainly cheap, and widely available.

          • 0 avatar
            Luke42

            @Jeff Semenak:
            Regardless of your personal stance on birth control, the Hobby Lobby ruling (widely lauded a conservative culture war victory) takes a fundamentally economic relationship (employment) and allows an employer to exert non-economic power over an employee’s private healthcare choices.

            I agree this was an overreach of corporate power, but conservatives were thrilled that employers would have this power over their employees. This is their victory, and they won it the hard way through a pitched political battle.

            Now, conservatives are unhappy with the victory they fought so hard to achieve, because they didn’t consider the consequences of that victory. Boo hoo.

            We told you so, but you guys didn’t listen. I’m kind-of out of sympathy for you guys and on this one.

            The full solution to employer power over private healthcare is to separate healthcare and employment completely. You in?

  • avatar
    SCE to AUX

    So the auto mfrs – or other companies for that matter – have no right to expect or provide a safe working environment for their employees by asking questions?

    I pretty much disagree with your entire piece here.

    “gluttony of studies” should be “glut of studies”, unless somebody is overdosing on reading studies.

    “In her estimation, full-blown respirators are the only sure-fire form of physical protection”

    Nobody expects “sure-fire” protection. Criticism of cloth barriers ignores their ability to *reduce* droplet count and velocity, which reduces viral load, and reduces risk. Nobody expects them to perform like a spacesuit.

    You’d be critical if GM asked its employees to show up wearing respirators, wouldn’t you?

    • 0 avatar
      Matt Posky

      “You’d be critical if GM asked its employees to show up wearing respirators, wouldn’t you?”

      Absolutely. There’s no reason to assume we will ever totally wrangle COVID and restrictions have already been overbearing, often counterproductive. If you think people should be slaves to their employer’s whims, that’s your business. But this blind trust has done nothing but degrade things and is now creating medical segregation and fury between those that approve of government/corporations restrictions and those that believe in things like informed consent. Take a look at Australia if you want to know where all of this leads.

      It’s good if people want to get vaccinated. It’s bad to effectively strong arm or bully them into complying.

      • 0 avatar
        Lou_BC

        “informed consent”

        LOL.

        If I explain to you that you have a curable cancer and explain the scientifically proven “best approach” to a cure but you chose to wander off and smoke cannabis, eat chaga mushrooms and cut out all of the sugar in your diet as a cure. That’s perfectly fine with me.

        If you are explained the pro’s and con’s of vaccination and social safety measures and chose to ignore public safety recommendations and measures then that’s a different kettle of fish. That isn’t much different than ignoring traffic regulations, and yelling fire in a public theatre.

        A business is a private entity. It can meet ‘informed consent” rules by clearly stating what the conditions of employment shall be. You stated in your screed that UAW wasn’t against the enforcement/discipline, they wanted to be part of the negotiations on that process. Those workers are protected by their contract to the extent of the language in it.

  • avatar
    kcflyer

    The vaccine doesn’t stop you from getting or spreading the virus. And what about employees with naturally acquired antibodies? …. Shouldn’t we wait for “science” to determine if or when they need a vaccine?

    • 0 avatar
      bunkie

      The short answer is no.

      The long answer has do do with how pandemics work and the fact that 100% effectiveness is *not* a requirement to control one, just that they vaccines are largely effective and (and here’s the important part) that a large enough percentage of any given population has that 80-90% level of protection that the vaccines afford. It also has to do with the proven safety of the vaccines. Except for that miniscule minority with legitimate problems with vaccines, there is no defensible reason not to get vaccinated.

      We know from past experience how vaccines against contagious diseases work and have no reason to expect that vaccinating enough people won’t work now.

      It is appalling to me to hear so many voices who question the notion of public health. It is unspeakably irresponsible. The cost is enormous. It costs lives, not only of those who die from covid, but those who face shortages of medical care caused by the entirely-preventable strain on the medical infrastructure. Frankly, I worry a lot more about needing emergency care for a non-covid illness or emergency because the hospitals are full of the willfully unvaccinated. This is where the “freedom” of the refuseniks impacts public health and, frankly, many of us are just sick of it.

      Two things from personal experience apply here. First, I’m old enough to have had peers who had been damaged by polio. Those of my generation gladly took the sugar cube or the shot because our parents *knew* with certainty that the Salk and Sabine vaccines were the answer to ending the scourge of a disease that, in many ways, is like polio in the range of effect it has on victims. The second is that you don’t *ever* want to be on a ventilator. I speak from personal experience and, as angry as I am at the refuseniks, I wouldn’t wish that experience on any of them.

      • 0 avatar
        trecoolx

        Well said.

      • 0 avatar
        Carlson Fan

        “It is appalling to me to hear so many voices who question the notion of public health. It is unspeakably irresponsible. The cost is enormous. It costs lives, not only of those who die from covid, but those who face shortages of medical care caused by the entirely-preventable strain on the medical infrastructure. Frankly, I worry a lot more about needing emergency care for a non-covid illness or emergency because the hospitals are full of the willfully unvaccinated. This is where the “freedom” of the refuseniks impacts public health and, frankly, many of us are just sick of it.”

        Right on brother!

        My sentiments exactly, although I couldn’t have expressed them in print as well as you did.

        Good to see there are still a few people that post on this website with some basic common sense, which seems to be be lacking with most these days.

      • 0 avatar
        jkross22

        @ bunkie,

        “It is appalling to me to hear so many voices who question the notion of public health. It is unspeakably irresponsible. ”

        What would you tell people who have natural immunity because they already had 19? According to the science, natural immunity is longer lasting and more effective than the vaccines. Are you saying they should get the vaccine anyway? If so, why?

        There was no natural immunity for polio, AFAIK. There is with covid.

      • 0 avatar
        tomLU86

        Israel is 80% vaccinated.

        The good news is, while COVID deaths there have spiked, the daily deaths are less than previous peaks. But they have spiked. The 80% vaccination rate has not ended death from COVID. The bad news: Aug 28 set a new record for “COVID cases”. Go to worldometers dot info and see for yourselves.

        Can anyone here explain why Israel is getting hammered, despite 80% vaccination.

        As for reasons to not take the vaccine, how about the thousands of Americans who have died since taking the shots? Or the tens of thousands visiting ERs with all kinds of nasty swelling.

        VAERS report around 10,000 deaths. It is conservative. As a govt agency, it wants the shots to look good. 10,000 is not many–unless it’s you or a loved one.

        There is a lot of anecdotal (that is, people know actual people or case) evidence to show that COVID is real and fatal. There is also a lot of anecdotal evidence showing the shots have real side effects, beyond the “you will feel sick for a day or two or three or seven”, that are more serious, up to and including death. And even more anecdotal evidence that you can be fully vaxxed and still get sick from COVID.

        Why are so many medical providers (nurses, doctors) not vaccinated? I think they know something.

        I don’t tell people to NOT to take the shot, lest they get COVID and die or have bad side effects.

        And I don’t tell people to TAKE the shot, lest they have bad side effects or die.

        People need to evaluate their personal situation and decide. And they should consider that virtually all the news reports and govt reports are highly biased to make people get the shot.

        • 0 avatar
          Lou_BC

          @tomLU86 – VAERS numbers cover every cause of death even remotely linked to vaccines. The reports are then investigated.

          An Epidemiologist from England put vaccine related adverse events and deaths at 2 per million people.

          • 0 avatar
            slavuta

            Official government data:

            “Adverse events from drugs and vaccines are common, but underreported. Although 25% of ambulatory patients experience an adverse drug event, less than 0.3% of all adverse drug events and 1-13% of serious events are reported to the Food and Drug Administration (FDA).
            Likewise, fewer than 1% of vaccine adverse events are reported. ”

            LESS THEN 1% of events are reported!

    • 0 avatar
      FreedMike

      @kcflyer:

      “The vaccine doesn’t stop you from getting or spreading the virus. ”

      Once again…no one is saying the vaccines stop you from getting infected with COVID, or spreading it. What they ARE saying is that if you do get COVID, the vaccines will protect you from getting seriously ill from it.

      The companies who are requiring this are doing it for a simple reason: they don’t want their employees getting seriously ill on the job. It’s a worker safety measure. That’s it…nothing more.

    • 0 avatar
      EBFlex

      “ The vaccine doesn’t stop you from getting or spreading the virus. And what about employees with naturally acquired antibodies? …. Shouldn’t we wait for “science” to determine if or when they need a vaccine?”

      The science has settled that. People with natural antibodies are far more protected than those that got the vaccine. Now, cue the “everyone must get the shot or they will die and everyone will die” crowd who will dismiss that science because it doesn’t fit their narrative.

  • avatar
    ravenuer

    Posky, you HAD to know the reaction you would get publishing something like this.

    • 0 avatar
      Matt Posky

      I was aware that a large portion of the population are cowards and fools. So yes.

      But sometimes you have to take a principled stance against something that seems wrong, especially when you know it might result in some hatred being thrown your way.

      • 0 avatar
        trecoolx

        “Cowards and fools?” Why the disrespect toward your readers?

        I thought the edgelord nonsense would stop with the disappearance of the Baruth Boys, but I guess not.

        • 0 avatar
          Matt Posky

          People that log on specifically to dump insults into the comments at every opportunity aren’t what I would call my readers. And anyone that takes direct offense to my thinking that blind compliance to corporate authoritarianism is indicative of cowards and fools likely is one.

          • 0 avatar
            pecos bill

            Then maybe stop posting stories that have nothing to do with cars rather than those that are turning this site into just another hate-filled political blog.

            “The Truth About What Was in Automotive News and Jalopnik Two Hours Ago.”

          • 0 avatar
            White Shadow

            I decided to log on just to tell you that I think you’re an ignorant twat. Carry on being you….

          • 0 avatar
            EBFlex

            “ anyone that takes direct offense to my thinking that blind compliance to corporate authoritarianism is indicative of cowards and fools likely is one.”

            Truer words have never been written on this site.

          • 0 avatar
            FreedMike

            “And anyone that takes direct offense to my thinking that blind compliance to corporate authoritarianism is indicative of cowards and fools likely is one.”

            Ah, the principled stand. Well, gee, Matt, let’s look over your published work from yesterday, shall we?

            The first piece was all about how car companies are destroying our civil liberties by requiring their employees to adhere to safety guidelines. Stupid premise, but whatever – you’re on record about how evil these companies are.

            Post #2 was a previous of a product from one of these evil companies.

            So…bottom line…first you call these companies evil, and in the next breath, it’s, “hey, gang, here’s their latest design!”

            And – stop me if I’m wrong here – you got paid for both stories.

            But anyone who disagrees with you on this is…let me clear my throat here…cowardly and foolish. And you got paid to say that too.

            We’re the unprincipled fools?

            I think it’s time for you to go do something overtly political. It’s the principled, courageous thing to do. Otherwise, you’re willingly taking money to basically promote an evil industry.

      • 0 avatar
        toronado

        so anyone that doesn’t agree with your views on Covid is a coward or fool? wow.

        • 0 avatar
          Lou_BC

          Fool: a silly or stupid person; a person who lacks judgment or sense.

          Coward: a person who lacks the courage to do or endure dangerous or unpleasant things.

          Let’s add a few more:

          Logical: characterized by or capable of clear, sound reasoning.
          (of an action, development, decision, etc.) natural or sensible given the circumstances.

          prudent: acting with or showing care and thought for the future.

          Professional malpractice is based upon the simple question, “what would a reasonable and prudent person/peer do in the same situation?”

          Someone needs to take a serious look at the reflection in the mirror.

          • 0 avatar
            EBFlex

            Thank you for posting the definition of a fool and a coward. But we knew from your posts what a fool and a coward is.

  • avatar
    FreedMike

    Well…we didn’t get enough pi**ed-off posts COVID yesterday, so we need to go for round two today? F**k that. No one’s mind is being changed here, and all these posts do is pit people who’ve been talking to each other for YEARS on this site about cars against each other.

    Besides, there’s a BIG damn gulf between companies setting basic safety rules employees need to follow and…gee, how did Posky put this yesterday? Ah, yes…”Chinese style governance.” Apparently there’s zero steps between workplace safety and Tiananmen Square. Yeah, right.

    How about some car reviews?

  • avatar
    APaGttH

    This just in, page views and ad revenue is down this week at The Truth About Cars, more borderline antivax, antiscience, ehem, “stories,” needed to drive traffic.

    Film at 11.

    Never thought I would see the day TTAC would sink below Jalopnik – here we are.

    • 0 avatar
      28-Cars-Later

      No different than the red team/blue team crap last year and through this year.

      • 0 avatar
        Matt Posky

        I’ve never once written an article for clicks. This is an opinion piece about something I earnestly believe is screwing up the automotive industry and society at large.

        If people are so dumb that they have been convinced everything is a conspiracy for driving website traffic, that’s on them. I don’t make principled stances to appease the weak-minded or perpetually afraid. I make them so I can sleep more soundly and hopefully not live in a world where we all become serfs.

        • 0 avatar
          rolandoblomblando

          You’re sitting here try to say that you’re taking this principled stance while also calling people weak-minded, cowards, perpetually afraid, etc. Your coming off like a jerk tbh.

        • 0 avatar
          MrIcky

          If people are so dumb: they think public health is a state conspiracy, they think being made to get a vaccination is being a slave to the corporations whim, they think working from home was solely about saving the corporation money.

          Jesus Posky, I don’t actually come here to dump insults, I come here for car news- but this is just…well I’m sure you think you’re being very brave, but you’re not. Being a keyboard warrior spouting out conspiracy theories doesn’t mean you’re standing watch on our freedoms.

          I read this line: “If people are so dumb that they have been convinced everything is a conspiracy for driving website traffic, that’s on them.” and then I read all the conspiracies in this article and the last. That’s on you.

          “Cowards and fools…”- well I dont know you well enough to call you a coward, but you’ve demonstrated yourself to be a fool.

        • 0 avatar
          Lou_BC

          But anyone who disagrees with you is a fool or a coward….

          Being accused of generating clicks aka clickbait…

          That’s just an opinion.

          “principled stances”

          principles

          a fundamental truth or proposition that serves as the foundation for a system of belief or behavior or for a chain of reasoning.

          Yup… masks and vaccines are against my principles.

          I find that highly illogical!

          But that’s just an opinion…. based on science, and precedent.

          • 0 avatar
            APaGttH

            @Lou_BC

            This isn’t going to end well I suspect. This is a Schmitt grade implosion. An EIC writing something on principle should be able to back their position up with something more than logical fallacies.

            The contempt toward the dwindling number of readers on this site is stunning.

            A web property with 2.4 million backlinks and 824K organic keywords should be driving more than 270K organic visits a month.

            Oh, and traffic has been in a steady decline since March 2021.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            @APaGttH – I don’t give a sh!t about him!

            I feel for you and your wife. I’ve pulled people back from the abyss and have failed to do so many times as well. I’ve provided comfort and peace to those crossing over and have failed to do so. I can live with that. I’m not sure how I’d cope with the shear volume of death that your wife has seen and I’ve seen plenty in my 30 plus year career.

            It’s a tragedy on an epic scale that did not have to be as bad as it is.

          • 0 avatar
            APaGttH

            @Lou_BC

            She is no fragile flower. She originally trained in Israel and was there during the first Intifada. Blast injuries, gunshots, men, women, children. Laying over patients during rocket attacks while Arab patients laughed at the Israeli doctors.

            This – this is worse. It isn’t just the COVID patients. When restrictions got lifted everyone went “freedom” so general trauma from accidents and stupidity skyrocketed. Gunshot wounds are through the roof this year too. Then, all the elective surgeries that got canceled are trying to crank through. It’s a perfect storm and it is relentless. Three people have left her department in the last 6 months with no replacement. Her entire upline is “acting” administration.

            The whole system is in crisis.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            @APaGttH – best wishes. Even a rock wears down from the constant pounding of the tides. Take care.

          • 0 avatar
            28-Cars-Later

            Very Zen, Lou, very Zen.

            “Laying over patients during rocket attacks while Arab patients laughed at the Israeli doctors.”

            She is a far better person than I, my inner Kevorkian would start coming out in that scenario.

        • 0 avatar
          jkross22

          I work in an office, in front of a computer and I have no medical training whatsoever. Well, I did get Red Cross certified for CPR when I was 12 so I could get close to that hot camp counselor, but that doesn’t count.

          I’m guessing most commenters here aren’t physicians or virologists or epidemiologists. I’m guessing most of you are like me – some kind of desk jockey.

          As non-scientists, can we remember to follow the science? I remember when saying that meant people should pay attention to data from hospitals to flatten the curve. The science today says other things – vaccinated people can spread 19, those that had 19 have natural immunity without a vaccine, kids are much less likely to do die of it than other age groups. New data will emerge that we should integrate, like what came out of Israel today showing that natural immunity is more effective that the Pfizer shot.

          How companies decide to allow or disallow employees, customers and vendors back onsite based on vaccination records seems like an incredibly bad idea because it doesn’t follow the science.

          Which is what I thought we were supposed to be doing.

      • 0 avatar
        jkross22

        28, There was a commenter here last year who confidently claimed that the worldwide covid death rate will be 3-15%. Probably just repeating some clap they heard on 24 hour news/fear porn, but the red/blue team crap isn’t much different than what we’re seeing now.

        People arguing and blaming each other instead of holding leadership accountable for not doing their jobs. Doesn’t matter if its politics, public health, religious organizations, the natural trajectory of any institution is toward corruption and incompetence.

        • 0 avatar
          28-Cars-Later

          I believed it was going to be much worse than it was, as did many others including the Feds IMO. But since Jan 26 2021, accountability had become a rare commodity as recent events confirm. I’m not sure there is a realistic solution.

        • 0 avatar
          FreedMike

          @JK:

          …and there was a commenter here who claimed COVID would be no worse than the flu…

  • avatar
    rolandoblomblando

    I understand that this is talking about car companies, but I really don’t feel like TTAC is the place for this. If the logic is “we wrote about this because it has to do with car companies” then you may as well start writing articles about HR performance reviews, quality of healthcare plans, and a myriad of other topics completely unrelated to cars as long as it’s involving a car company.
    Let other people who know more about this subject comment on health policies and just stick to what you’re good at, which is talking about cars.
    I’m tired of people saying “the science is so inconsistent,” SCIENCE EVOLVES AND CHANGES AS BETTER INFORMATION AND DATA BECOMES AVAILABLE. When COVID hit it was a new virus which had barely been studied, but scientists all over the world busted their ass around the clock to try to get data and form the best conclusions possible about what was going on basically in real time. Unprecedented numbers of research articles were being published on a monthly basis. The problem is that the media sucks at understanding science, how the process actually works, how to interpret scientific inquiry, and how to understand that all research comes with certain limitations (and how to convey such things accurately to the public). One great example was a study that examined the potential beneficial medical effects of hydrogen sulfide (a foul smelling gas that smells like rotten eggs). How did the media interpret this? Time Magazine reported that “Scientists Say Smelling Farts Might Prevent Cancer” and it went viral overnight. The research study literally never mentioned cancer or flatulence. Now, we have literally every random bozo in the media interpreting complex scientific inquiry basically however the hell they want, creating a massive storm of misinformation that often flies in the face of even the most basic logic. Like a study that examined aerosol transmission rates for different mask materials which suggested that N95 and KN95 masks were more recommended than cloth masks, but also noted that the cloth masks had more particles detected possibly due to release of micro fibers from cloth masks which were not inherent in cleaner standardized healthcare quality masks. How does the media interpret this? “Cloth masks don’t work everybody! So you shouldn’t wear masks anymore unless they’re N95! Everyone stop wearing masks!” I swear, more Americans are dying because of ignorant people in the media pretending they know things at this point than anything else. Here in Florida 240 people are dying every day from this f**king disease while asshats like you keep spreading your senseless BS. Had less people like you been constantly adding your 2 cents, we’d have less people believing that vaccines have a significant chance of killing them, or that vaccines are made of baby fetuses, or that vaccines are going to make them grow a 3rd testicle ten years down the line and maybe the Delta variant wouldn’t be causing every hospital in my county to be filled with people with COVID at this point.
    So, please just stop. Stick to cars. Get some help. Thank you.

  • avatar
    theflyersfan

    I almost never comment on non-car based articles but this one pushed me over. I’ve been coming here for years – I remember the first new review I saw on this site was Farago reviewing an Elise and I was hooked. I think that was around 2005 or 2006.
    With the exception of the Rare Rides and the recent additions of the history of (insert) stories which can be interesting, this site needs a hard reset. If your only goal is to get clicks by having the same people arguing the same points each and every day by posting the same opinions on the same topics over and over again, it’s no longer a car site.
    I don’t go to medical or political sites to argue about cars, so why in the holy hell does a car site get jacked up almost every day with the same stuff over and over again?
    I find myself checking out Jalopnik more and more because they can get several hundred excellent comments – lots of back and forth – on car related topics. It doesn’t take “throw the red meat out there again – clicks are down” that seems to be the driving force behind this site.
    And I’m not going to buy what Healey said months ago about how this stuff is “car related” because it deals with a “car company.” No. This is an opinion peace with thin threads to a car company that was posted just to drive up traffic with the same people with the same arguments. Nothing posted here is going to change anyone’s minds about what they believe, no matter on how many threads it gets posted on.
    Please get back to cars. Let the cable news idiots battle each other to the death instead.

    • 0 avatar
      Matt Posky

      Automotive employees tell me every single day that they don’t want to deal with this and find it overbearing. Some have told me they want to quit over it. What do you have to say to them?

      • 0 avatar
        theflyersfan

        I’ve gone back to having to wear masks at work. So has everyone else in my family. Why? Because virus incubators called anti-vaxxers refuse to get a free, safe vaccine that would have had this beat, and we are back to square 1.

        Whatever the hell happened to being part of society? Neighbors to one another? Is that all gone? Is it anarchy? 330 million US citizens all for themselves not giving a flying f about anyone outside of their little bubble? If an automotive employee doesn’t want to mask up to protect those around them, tough. If governors of states being torn apart by COVID – having their kids die all around them – just to win brownie points with this mythical “base,” well, that borders on sociopathic.

        That auto employee that doesn’t want to take the basic step to protect those around him or her isn’t looking at the big picture – that’s something that’s been lost during this pandemic.

        • 0 avatar
          Matt Posky

          Employees. Plural. Employees tell me on a daily basis that this stuff has made their jobs significantly harder. Meanwhile, COVID restrictions nuked supply chains so line workers are on rolling layoffs. It’s a bad situation across the board and almost nobody is being serious about it. Instead, we’re acting like we can find some magic solution that will totally nullify infection risks. That’s never going to happen, not even if literally everyone gets the vaccine, and our fighting like children isn’t helpful.

          I’m happy to let you and your family mask up and hold whatever opinions you want about other people. I’m just not so keen on you (or multi-billion-dollar companies) imposing your will upon them. But it’s obvious after reading your governors comments that you’re not a serious actor seeking solutions, just another partisan.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            @Posky

            “just another partisan”

            What’s partisan about what he pointed out?

            “you’re not a serious actor seeking solutions”

            Vaccines, masks, handwashing, limiting public contacts, handwashing all work….

            “Let er rip (SARS-Cov-2) as long as it doesn’t impede my selfish right to be selfish” is technically a solution.

            I’m serious about seeking solutions.

            You haven’t listed any.

          • 0 avatar
            MrIcky

            “Automotive employees tell me every single day that they don’t want to deal with this and find it overbearing. Some have told me they want to quit over it. What do you have to say to them?”

            What you tell them is ‘yup, things are tough all over’. What do you think you’re supposed to tell them.

            “Employees. Plural. Employees tell me on a daily basis that this stuff has made their jobs significantly harder.”

            Yes, do you think removing all restrictions would make their jobs better?

            “Meanwhile, COVID restrictions nuked supply chains”

            COVID nuked supply chains, not COVID restrictions. The port of los angeles had like 16-22% absenteeism due to illness for a while. The port that just closed in China closed because workers had COVID. Masks might make your job suck, but that is not what caused supply chain issues.

            “Instead, we’re acting like we can find some magic solution that will totally nullify infection risks. That’s never going to happen, not even if literally everyone gets the vaccine.”

            This is so wrong I don’t even… I’ll say this nice and slow- if everyone got the vaccine, it ‘literally’ would nullify infection risks. It would end the whole issue almost like a ‘magic solution’. It would make it much harder to catch, much harder to transmit, and the symptoms would be much milder if it did slip through. With steps taken to screen at borders and ports it would make it close to a non-issue in the US.

      • 0 avatar
        rolandoblomblando

        I don’t know, maybe take it up with your employer and if they don’t respond get another job! This is the same argument that someone would make about low wages. Don’t like it? Get a better paying job!
        Car companies are trying to CYA as much as anybody. If there’s something they can reasonably do to keep their employees from getting sick and dying from a disease they caught at work then they’re going to do that reasonable thing so that they don’t get sued. It’s pretty simple dude.

      • 0 avatar
        FreedMike

        “What do you have to say to them?”

        Same thing I’d say to anyone who has a problem with an ENTIRELY REASONABLE safety requirement at work: deal with it or find another job. Good Lord…

        • 0 avatar
          EBFlex

          If you think driving into the complex work of personal healthcare choices and personal health information is “entirely reasonable” you are a fool and a coward. But we already knew that.

          You are the type of person that would be fully onboard with employers mandating to know your STD status. After all employees that hookup could catch something and that costs money so it’s in the employers best interests to know this.

          You are the type of person that would be fully onboard with employers demanding to know the very detailed health history of your children because after all, some children have genetic medical issues and they need to know as they cost more money.

          You frame this as something that’s entirely reasonable yet nothing is farther from the truth. This is about control. If people want the vaccine they will get it. Those that don’t assume the risks. Proving if you have had the vaccine is no business of the employer. And the employer gains nothing from it. There is nothing to be gained from knowing whether you have had the vaccine or not.

          This is absolutely North Korean level authoritarianism. And the fact people like you toe the party line is astounding. The fact you consistently change the argument being presented into one of “they’re against the vaccine” is also dishonest but expected.

  • avatar
    Imagefont

    Matt,
    Cloth masks are effective at limiting the spread of a virus, which is transmitted when a person speaks or exhales and breaths small particles and droplets into the air, which are in turn inhaled by another person. The cloth mask greatly reduces the volume of particles and the distance they travel, thus reducing transmission. No mask is perfect but any mask will help. This is well understood and you shouldn’t be propagating misinformation, which is what you just did. You need a second article to retract the mistakes you made in this one – you are spreading misinformation intentionally.
    And get your vaccine if you haven’t already. There are literally no excuses not to get the vaccine.

    • 0 avatar
      28-Cars-Later

      I hope you don’t really believe that… 2% or 3% effectiveness in concert with the six feet doesn’t really qualify as “effective”.

      • 0 avatar
        Imagefont

        Ans now you are spreading misinformation, and straight up lying.

        • 0 avatar
          28-Cars-Later

          Right, because pieces of cloth provide any real amount of protection to anyone.

          @Lou

          I believe the N95 and forward have demonstrated effectiveness, I read a study last year where 60% of known Covid virii sizes were stopped by an N95 and the remaining 40% were smaller than 0.06 micron or some such and could pass through. The higher grade masks did even better so there is clear evidence the N95+ protect the wearer and those around them. The issue of course is most people did not have access to the N95s and still are not wearing something approaching them. While a scarf or simple piece of cloth may have some percentage of effectiveness, its low enough to not at least obsess over them. If a person wants to wear a scarf and gain its 3% or thereabouts of effectiveness so be it, but I think it provides false hope. There are unfortunately souls who do not understand this and actually believe a cloth scarf is going to protect them or others to any real degree. Imagefront is such an example.

      • 0 avatar
        Lou_BC

        @28-Cars-Later – Depends on what you read. Every meta-analysis I’ve read states that masks, even clothe masks provide some benefit but that is tied to the percentage of people wearing masks. If everyone wore a mask of any kind, then the overall benefit increases. Add other measures and vaccination and the benefits multiply.

        Yesterday EB was making claims based on some study that sited in a higher risk situation it would take 15 minutes to contract the virus and with a clothe mask it would give an added 5 minutes of protection. He had a claim about a surgical mask but I read the transcript and it did not mention them. A N95 was supposed to be good for 24 -25 hours. He could not list any of the variables in the study and the moron he was citing did not explain any of the study parameters. With that being said, the fellow he was citing was really pushing vaccines.

        • 0 avatar
          MrIcky

          Taking the 5 additional minutes of protection at it’s word: That is highly effective in most daily transactional interactions. No, it’s not effective in a concert or a meeting- but you talk to a coworker for a few minutes, you go to mcdonalds, you go to starbucks. You have multiple short interactions per day and few extended interactions outside your family.

  • avatar
    Greg Hamilton

    Other than 28 cars and Matt and few others, the commenters on this site have reverted to name calling and saying anyone who disagrees with them is anti-science when they themselves are spewing Lysenkoism (a politically enforced pseudoscientific cult)–http://www.softpanorama.org/Skeptics/lysenkoism.shtml

    Science is based on skepticism not edicts from so called authority figures in white robes. Perhaps the commenters should look up Carl Sagan’s view on skepticism. He was a physicist after all.

    • 0 avatar
      Matt Posky

      I’ve always loved Sagan. We even share a birthday.

      Thanks for the link and trying to inject an adult attitude into the conversation.

    • 0 avatar
      Lou_BC

      @Greg Hamilton

      I’ve sited several meta-analysis studies i.e. studies of all of the studies. Masks provide benefit and so do vaccines.

      Skepticism based upon political ideology or “freedom to do WTF I want” isn’t following any scientific process. Skepticism IS part of the scientific process. I don’t see Posky or others applying the process in the debate surrounding SARS-CoV-2 transmission mitigation.

      What is pseudoscientific about masks and vaccines?

      “The scientific method is a process or method of research. A problem is identified, information about the problem is gathered, a hypothesis or question is formulated from the information, and the hypothesis is put to test with an experiment to prove or disprove it’s validity.”

      “Anti-scientific” would be anything that does not follow the scientific process.

      • 0 avatar
        Greg Hamilton

        Lou,
        Instead of arguing point by point I’ll give you a quote by Isaac Asimov whose scientists, as they were portrayed in the Foundation Series of books, were depicted as priests whose opinions(edicts) must be followed.
        In this quote by him from youtube he mentions “a brotherhood of intelligence.” I think this brotherhood of intelligence is something we can all aspire to:
        “https://youtu.be/Ekg0LZJWg5c?t=168”

        • 0 avatar
          Lou_BC

          “were depicted as priests whose opinions(edicts) must be followed.”

          Weak attempt at a trap. Science provides the most up to date knowledge available. If you are the only one affected, chose whatever you want but SARS-CoV-2 is community transmitted virus that requires community cooperation to control.
          WTF does a Star Trek video have to do with any of this?

          When does slavuto come on duty?

  • avatar
    Alex Mackinnon

    If I can wear a hard hat, miners lamp, gas detector, steel toed rubber-boots, reflective vest, safety glasses and have to carry around a 5kg self contained breathing apparatus for up to 16 hours a day, some line worker can harden up and get a free bloody shot.

    It’s part of the PPE now, and helps keep people around you form becoming comorbidities.

    Some people are probably complaining to you, but more would probably just as soon let them go. There’s plenty more who will take their jobs.

    I wouldn’t let an idiot walk around my underground construction site, in the dark without a hardhat on even if he thought it was repressing him. Even if a slab of rock will still kill them with a hard hat on, they still need to wear it. Same applies.

    Matt, I’m glad your just a writer. Not somebody in a job where you could get someone injured.

    • 0 avatar
      Lou_BC

      @Alex Mackinnon – I agree with all that you said except, “Matt, I’m glad your just a writer. Not somebody in a job where you could get someone injured.”

      There are those that will take his words to heart and ignore wearing masks or chose to not get vaccinated all because of some misguided belief that their rights are being violated.

      • 0 avatar
        Alex Mackinnon

        @Lou_BC I agree, that’s not great, but still better than a position of technical or medical authority. There’s not really a shortage of cranks with similar viewpoints and loud mouths out there though.

        I’m not sure if one more voice in the echo chamber makes much difference any more. The miracles or modern living.

        Thank goodness were not in the states though. I can’t imagine anyone around here seriously saying or writing about a “medical police state” unless they were a PPC candidate.

  • avatar
    Number6

    Largest clinical trial in history. That isn’t enough for some people.

    Given enough time, these clowns that don’t get vaccinated will eventually lead to THE EVOLUTION of a mutant strain that the vaccine doesn’t work for. And all of a sudden it’s 2020 again.

    So go back to watching your vaccinated trust-fund boy Tucker tell you how to be outraged. And call everyone else lemmings, because projection makes you feel better about your bad choices.

    2020 is proof of our failure as a species.

    • 0 avatar
      slavuta

      “clowns that don’t get vaccinated will eventually lead to THE EVOLUTION of a mutant strain”

      oh no. You get this upside down. Unvaccinated either beat the virus or succumb to it. It is you, the vaccinated, who causes virus mutations.

      • 0 avatar
        Alex Mackinnon

        That’s one heck of a smoothbrain take. How did the vaccine mutate before vaccinations came out and were widely available?

        • 0 avatar
          slavuta

          Sanjay Gupta: “Getting vaccinated could lead to more variants of the virus, you know”

          “The virus learns how to, sort of, adapt and mutate now to a vaccinated person. Exposing vaccinated people to the virus, you could start to inspire more and more mutations”

  • avatar
    irkregent

    I can hardly believe I am reading a piece like this on an automotive blog–but am thrilled to do so. It seems all the others are all-in on The Party Line with regards to the “mask up, vax up, repeat” propaganda. Thank you for having the courage to publish this.

  • avatar
    lsstal01

    I’ve lurked on this site for close to a decade now. And I’ve maybe logged in to comment on 2 or 3 articles (heck I had to make a new account for this because I couldn’t even remember my old login). But what the HELL is this?

    We’re inundated with political garbage- from both sides- all day long, do we really need the automotive hobby taken over by it too? Let alone by anti-vax poorly laid our drivel?

    You can count on me to stop being a TTAC reader…

  • avatar
    White Shadow

    Articles like this is why I only come here once a month on average. You’d think I’d just skip crap like this, but I can’t resist an idiotic story every month or so. See you all towards the end is September. Oh, and Posky is an idiot.

  • avatar
    80Cadillac

    This article is irresponsible.
    I am disgusted by the clouded logic of the whining set, who seem to have been trained in 4 short years to whine about f*cking everything.
    Lockdown to reduce transmission? “Whaaa! OK, 2 weeks are over, we’re back to NORMAL!” We know where that got us, repeatedly.
    “Whaaa! I want things back to normal”
    “Cover your face, wash your hands frequently, steer clear of others in indoor settings”
    Nope.
    Effective mRNA vaccines are designed 3 days after China released the genetic sequence, and trials prove them overwhelmingly safe in less than a year.
    “Whaaaa! I want things back to normal”
    “Get a safe, effective, free vaccine.”
    “Whaaa! It’s my body, don’t tell me what I have to do!”
    We in the US are within spitting (not recommended, BTW) distance of 700,000 dead. We’re the only country I know of where you can’t cross town without tripping over a free, safe, effective vaccine, and we still find ourselves in a desperate emergency. Articles like this continue to contribute to the dire situation.
    I’m in total agreement and sympathy with APaGttH. One sister is an infectious disease specialist, many high school friends have been physicians for decades now, and everyone is stunned at the stupidity of people who cannot seem to make any logical analysis of how successful these vaccines are at preventing serious illness and death. Easy. Free. Effective. Might give you a few symptoms for half a day. The mRNA vaccines allow your body to generate antibodies if the virus is detected. The vaccine clears your body within 72 hours. It’s very much like downloading an app, or installing a program.
    So here’s what makes me want to be able to come through the screen and throw you out a window. Dad’s 94, and we as a family were just about adjusted to the transition to a nursing home, when Covid hit. I had been telling him for several weeks in February 2020 that we may not be allowed in for several weeks. I bought a new TV for his room, and put up family pictures in frames, made sure there was plenty to read, etc.
    Window visits with cellphone audio were hell. Zoom calls were marginally better. Later, watching Mom have to enter a room masked, gowned, gloved, and sitting at the opposite end of a 10-foot table was hell.
    This year, we were finally able to enter, after screening, masking up, going straight to the room, and keeping the masks on. At the first visit, months ago, I asked, “Why aren’t you asking if we’ve been vaccinated?”.
    “We’re not allowed to.” AT A NURSING HOME
    And after a couple of months of semi-normal visits, we’re now completely locked out again, because STAFF AT A NURSING HOME ARE NOT REQUIRED TO BE VACCINATED, and they have infected half a dozen residents.
    So go to hell, it’s uninformed opinion pieces like this that are costing so much, from so many.
    Want to get back to normal? Get a vaccine. So f*cking simple. Thanks for adding to this idiot culture that has cost me time with my father in the last years of a life that healed many others.
    I’ve enjoyed the TTAC blog for several years, particularly Junkyard Finds and some reviews of more obscure cars. I’m done. Never visiting again, removing link from bookmarks bar.
    GET A FREE, SAFE, EFFECTIVE VACCINE IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO RETURN TO NORMAL IN THE USA. IT’S PRETTY DAMN SIMPLE, AND THE VACCINES ARE THE ENVY OF THE WORLD.

    • 0 avatar
      slavuta

      Did you see Taliban wearing a mask or taking the vaccine? No? So why do we need it?

    • 0 avatar
      pb35

      “I’ve enjoyed the TTAC blog for several years, particularly Junkyard Finds and some reviews of more obscure cars. I’m done. Never visiting again, removing link from bookmarks bar.

      GET A FREE, SAFE, EFFECTIVE VACCINE IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO RETURN TO NORMAL IN THE USA. IT’S PRETTY DAMN SIMPLE, AND THE VACCINES ARE THE ENVY OF THE WORLD.“

      QFT. So long, TTAC. It was fun while it lasted.

    • 0 avatar
      28-Cars-Later

      Which model Cadillac?

      • 0 avatar
        80Cadillac

        1980 Sedan DeVille, white with white vinyl top, navy leather seats, 368cid V8, the year before they messed it up with the 8-6-4 cylinder management. Best of many Cadillac sedans I owned over the years. The CB radio built in to the factory radio was a kick. It was a relatively light car for its size, and the 6-liter V8 seemed to be the perfect fit for balanced handling and also pretty good economy (18-20mpg).
        Aside from a dozen or so Cadillacs, I’ve owned Chevrolet, Porsche, Austin, Suzuki, Oldsmobile, Dodge, GMC, Renault and maybe a few others. When it came time to make a user name, I simply thought, “OK, what’s the best car I ever owned?”.

        And yes, in response to “this guy”, I’ve made several if not many comments ABOUT CARS, but only when I thought I had anything relevant to say.

  • avatar
    Keith_93

    I hear GM requires their employees to wear shoes and socks too. I read that they force cafeteria employees to wash their hands after they use the bathroom.

    All their personal freedoms, crushed.

  • avatar
    Jeff S

    Many anti vaccers are more interested in their individual rights than the overall health of everyone else. If an anti vaccer gets Covid-19 and is put on a respirator it is then that they want the vaccine and they want all the medical care and to hell with everyone else even if that person has a life threatening situation and cannot be admitted to the hospital because there are no beds. That is what is wrong with much of our society which is me first and it is only my rights that matter even if my rights endanger others. There is a difference in speaking out to defend your rights against oppression and injustices and another to selfishly put others in danger because you are irresponsible and only care about your own rights. As for corporations requiring masks and vaccines it is true that they are looking out after their own interests but the interests of having a healthy workplace protects everyone. As for collecting data that is being done every time you use your credit card and go on the internet or facebook. Every time you walk into a store or walk down most urban streets there are cameras watching you and if you drive a late model vehicle you are being monitored as well. If you are concerned about being monitored then go completely off the grid and live like the Amish. The very fact you are on this website and making comments means that you have consented to being monitored and information is being gathered about you. Protecting public safety and health should be the primary concern.

    • 0 avatar
      golden2husky

      Jeff S – well said. Individual rights do have limitations. And when it comes to the overall health of the population at large, that overrides an individual’s choice. Very few are complaining about vaxxing for childhood diseases and they are the law. So why is covid different? Because some orange idiot turned it into a political battle cry, that’s why.

      I’m thrilled that businesses are making vaccination mandatory. I also know that they are not doing so for altruistic reasons – its for their bottom line. That’s ok. Anything that ends this pandemic so we can all live our lives normally again.

  • avatar

    Never Mask, Never Vax!

  • avatar
    BSttac

    Great writing! Fully agree. Ridiculous that these companies can tell you what to do with your body for a drug that isn’t even FDA approved (they revised the rules inorder to say its FDA Approved). No longer the land of the free. Remember to bring your papers with you.

    • 0 avatar
      slavuta

      There is more to this. They will continue to shoot this vaccine under Emergency Use to avoid legal challenges. The fully approved stuff will simply not be available. At least, anything that can be given to you right now, is not an approved vaccine because it comes without required documentation and legal responsibility.

    • 0 avatar
      paxman356

      How is it not the land of the free? You are free to get vaccinated, or you are free to go work elsewhere. You are free to go take a drug test and be negative, or you are free to go work elsewhere. You are free to wear clothes to work, or you are free to work elsewhere.

      You have given up your freedom to medical privacy from recreational drugs and wearing restrictive clothes at work, giving up your vax status and wearing a mask is not that far along.

  • avatar
    JaySeis

    Well, using a riff on a historical combat example, “Infect them all, let god sort them out”.

    The virus is a life form that adapts through survival of mutant forms infecting other life forms (humans, dogs, etc). The life forms are more or less resistance. The virus doesn’t “care”, it just does what it does, infect and live or die.

    The life forms do what they do, throw up barriers, leave open pathways, do nothing.

    The virus doesn’t “care”, it just lives or dies.
    .

    • 0 avatar
      FreedMike

      Yes, the virus is a life form. So is polio. Both can be prevented from causing severe illnesses to the life format known as human beings by vaccination.

      I’m not sure what point you are trying to make.

      • 0 avatar
        tomLU86

        All the rabid pro-vaxxers seem to be in denial that people have actually died and gotten sick from the COVID vaccine to significantly higher degree than has been tolerated of over vaccines in the past.

        Also, you seem to be in denial that, as bad as COVID it is, and it is bad, both from the ‘data’ and anecdotal experience, it is not a death sentence by any means, and the majority will fully recover.

        Also, unlike “typical” vaccines, the COVID vaccinees can still get sick from COVID, and can still transmit it.

        The early polio vaccines killed a few and crippled hundreds and were pulled off the market.

        Half truths are not the truth.

        IF COVID was fatal or debilitating for 25% of more of it’s victims, then your arguments would have merit.

        It is not. So, if you, or a loved one, is “high-risk”, they should probably risk the shot.

        If you or a loved one is not, you should probably not risk the shot.

        • 0 avatar
          Lou_BC

          “All the rabid pro-vaxxers seem to be in denial that people have actually died and gotten sick from the COVID vaccine to significantly higher degree than has been tolerated of over vaccines in the past”

          @tomLU86 – Wrong. Incorrect!

          Flu vaccine and COVID-19 vaccines are basically the same at 2 deaths per million people.

          SARS-CoV-2 related COVID-19 is much more deadly than infuenza pneumonia.

          So stop with the bullsh!t.

          • 0 avatar
            tomLU86

            Two per million equals 300-400 people in the US.

            That is bull$hit.

            I’m not anti-COVID vax. I’m simply saying that in this case, IMO, the data (whether taken at face value, or even if interpreted to allow for bias such as over-reporting deaths and under-reporting cases) shows that for many it the shots are the better bet, and for many they may not be.

            You may not agree.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            @tomLU86 – COVID-19 vaccine death rate is no different than that of the influenza vaccine death rate.

            Virtually every currently approved medication on the market has a worse death rate. I’m sure that’s not stopping you from Taking Tylenol or Motrin for aches and pains. You play the odds with any medication.

            The risk of contracting COVID-19 is much worse. If it was just affecting one person like heart disease or lung disease than no big deal. It’s your choice to make. SARS-CoV-2 on the other hand is a public problem that is socially transmitted. Unless you want to become a hermit then not getting vaccinated makes the problem worse for everyone else.

            Funny how you all of a sudden care about vaccination deaths when you went on about car crash deaths, heart attacks et al. You can’t have it both ways.

            The cardinal rule of mass casualty triage is to do the greatest good for the greatest number of people. That applies to a pandemic. A pandemic is a mass casualty event.

          • 0 avatar
            28-Cars-Later

            “Unless you want to become a hermit”

            Hermitude just kicked in yo.

            Warp isolation; Engage!

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            “Hermitude just kicked in yo.”

            LOL.

  • avatar
    JaySeis

    Interesting overview of viral combat by scientists.

    https://flip.it/CsynNC

  • avatar
    Paul Alexander

    I personally enjoy the, “You aren’t a doctor or expert!” to people who have concern or disagreement with vaccine policies. We all get our expertise second hand through whatever media consensus we decide to read. I have met doctors and people in the biotech field who have major reservations about what’s happening. Should I wave an article from USA Today in their faces and proclaim them wrong? I don’t know, I’m not an expert.

  • avatar
    azfelix

    YMMV:

    I rarely come down with the flu.
    I never get a flu shot.
    I fall into no high risk categories regarding the virus.
    I had the virus in early January 2020 (not a typo) and it lasted for less than two weeks, varying in intensity during that period.
    I have not been sick a single day since.
    I have driven rideshare off and on since then (before and after mask mandates) and conservatively estimate carrying 7-8000 people in the car with me. None of them ever wore two masks wrapped with a nylon cover to keep them tight, as suggested by the CDC(?) at one point.
    I have listened to countless stories and experiences from people around the world on this topic.
    I personally know no one who has been hospitalized due to the virus.
    I know of one person who died from the virus: a friend’s ex-coworker from a few years ago was in her 30’s and was confirmed to have died from it.
    I know the assigned deaths are near 700,000 for the US.

    YMMV. Do what is best for you after researching and examining the facts.

  • avatar
    la834

    As long as this country depends on corporations rather than the government to provide health care, companies will enact policies that encourage their employees to remain healthy. This includes requiring vaccination for a disease that didn’t even exist two years ago but has since killed over 4 million people. I don’t think car manufacturers (or any other companies) are overstepping their bounds at all.

  • avatar
    dal20402

    What are all of you who are railing against this afraid of, exactly?

    The vaccines have been taken by hundreds of millions of people all over the world, including a majority of your fellow North Americans. There are few medicines in existence where the lack of dangerous side effects is more conclusively established. Meanwhile, it’s equally indisputable that they offer substantial protection from COVID, both reducing risk of infection and substantially reducing risk that an infection will have serious consequences. Even in places where more than 80% of the overall population is vaccinated. 99% or more of the people who die of COVID are unvaxxed.

    The downside of this medicine is minuscule—24 hours of mild discomfort, at most—and the upside is massive.

    Yet here you are analogizing to things like forced sterilization and personality-changing medications, which would change your lives if you were forced to undergo them, and sounding the alarm about a totalitarian state. Why expend all that effort, and set back the entire public health program to defeat COVID, over this vaccine? Frankly, it’s a silly waste of your time.

    • 0 avatar
      slavuta

      “There are few medicines in existence where the lack of dangerous side effects is more conclusively established. Meanwhile, it’s equally indisputable that they offer substantial protection from COVID, both reducing risk of infection and substantially reducing risk that an infection will have serious consequences. Even in places where more than 80% of the overall population is vaccinated. 99% or more of the people who die of COVID are unvaxxed.”

      Everything here is one blatant lie

    • 0 avatar
      Flipper35

      We had two people here are work off for three days due to being bed ridden sick due to the vaccine. Some people it is more than 24 hours of mild discomfort.

      I had C19 at least once as I tested positive a year ago. 18 months ago I was sure I had it but there were no facilities to test for it at the time. Both times I was less sick than my coworkers from the vaccine.

      That said, my dad was hospitalized due to C19 (before vaccines were available) and has since gotten vaccinated with no (known) ill effects from it.

      What we need is for people to behave responsibly, regardless of vaccine status as even those vaccinated can infect others. If people can’t behave responsibly we will be a papers please society in a very short time.

      • 0 avatar
        FreedMike

        Valid point, Flipper, but if we’re going with “people we know who got the vaccine,” everyone in my family did, including my mom and brother, and only one of us had any symptoms.

        I’d rather have a few days of feeling under the weather than catching COVID.

        But the anti-vax folks are using stuff like this an excuse, and ignore that lots of folks get flu symptoms when they get flu shots.

      • 0 avatar
        dal20402

        I know probably several hundred people who have taken the vaccine. Not a single one was out for three days. It ranged from “no effect” to one day of feeling pretty sick.

        I had an illness in the first two weeks of February 2020 that I believe may have been COVID. (Seattle was one of the places where the very first US infections were reported.) I didn’t have shortness of breath, but all the other symptoms lined up. I didn’t have to go to the hospital, but it was awful. I was sick for two weeks and pretty much nonfunctional for several days within that time. My experience with that was many, many times worse than my experience with the vaccine, which was barely noticeable.

        • 0 avatar
          Lou_BC

          I know a few people who missed a couple of days work from the 2nd Vaccine but out of the hundreds of people I work with, that’s a small number. I know someone who came down with COVID-19 that was off work for three months (pre-vaccine).

  • avatar
    rustinginNL

    I’m done…I’m sick of the whining….these “writers” basically call everyone who masks/social distances/vaccinated sheep and too stupid to not rebel against our corporate overlords who dare try to keep their employees healthy.

    They they insult people who disagree with them, and when they get a response, call them fools or cowards.

    Without responsibilities there are no rights. As a citizen your responsibilities lie with your fellow citizens…..

    But here we are, you basically assume anyone that knows or understands science and how science works has no common sense, or is a fool (especially if they deign to disagree with you). You have called them so…….you assume that the lived experience of others is less important than your beliefs and opinions….and you denigrate them …..f course then you act all offended that someone would dare take offence at what you have called them……

    But hey, porsky, I know……I’m just a foolish, cowardly, sheep to you ….not to mention stupid……and you know, coming from you I will wear that as a badge of honour, and all those you have insulted on these forums and in your article should do the same.

    Oh, and no need to respond to this….I’m done with this site and the ignorance. Every day to get insulted by people who are just like you, at least there I get paid for it.

    Good bye.

  • avatar
    rustinginNL

    I’m done…I’m sick of the whining….these “writers” basically call everyone who masks/social distances/vaccinated sheep and too stupid to not rebel against our corporate overlords who dare try to keep their employees healthy.

    They they insult people who disagree with them, and when they get a response, call them fools or cowards.

    Without responsibilities there are no rights. As a citizen your responsibilities lie with your fellow citizens…..

    But here we are, you basically assume anyone that knows or understands science and how science works has no common sense, or is a fool (especially if they deign to disagree with you). You have called them so…….you assume that the lived experience of others is less important than your beliefs and opinions….and you denigrate them …..f course then you act all offended that someone would dare take offence at what you have called them……

    But hey,, I know……I’m just a foolish, cowardly, sheep to you ….not to mention stupid……and you know, coming from you I will wear that as a badge of honour, and all those you have insulted on these forums and in your article should do the same.

    Oh, and no need to respond to this….I’m done with this site and the ignorance. Every day to get insulted by people who are just like you, at least there I get paid for it.

    Good bye.

  • avatar
    Marcus36

    Talk about a click bait article, FFS grow a pair, stop whining, get the shot, learn how to live in a social group, move on with your life.

  • avatar
    mcs

    Texas anti-mask ‘Freedom Defender’ Caleb Wallace dies at 30

    https://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/ny-freedom-defender-caleb-wallace-dies-covid-20210829-4m7co2w6p5dkje3gh77zx6252a-story.html

    https://www.gosanangelo.com/story/news/2021/08/22/texas-covid-delta-variant-hospitalizations-high-mom-fights-save-husband/8196516002/

  • avatar
    K Drive

    Truly a shame that one of the few remaining sites I could visit and not be confronted with politics is now gone.

  • avatar
    Mackie

    Goodbye TTAC. You have some serious quality control problems.

  • avatar
    Argistat

    (this is directed at the anti-vax, anti-mask mentality, not at Matt P)
    It would not matter if there was a 100% effective vacine or if masks were 100% effective. If vacines, masks, or whatever else is not in the Trump code-of-honor playbook (oh wait, Trump did take the vacine) it will never change their minds. Same with any proven raw data facts and stats. If they did change their minds, then they have to take down those 2020 Trump for Pres flags and admit at least some of the blue politicians might have been right. Most of these anti type people have no problem taking Rx meds, non FDA “vitamins”, tap water, other type of shots etc, all of which end up in your bloodstream.

    They don’t give a damn about protecting children (who cannot get get vacine), elderly, and other at risk. They just say well I got covid before and it was no big deal. They could care less if they get it again (maybe no symptoms) and pass it on to others not as lucky as them.

    As far as the quotes like “I heard two doctors say..”, maybe those docs are not qualified? I can post many web links that prove the earth is flat.

  • avatar
    bobby b

    Nice to see a liberty-centric opinion on a car site.

  • avatar
    Daniel J

    The libertarian in me believes a company or business has the freedom to associate and what they want to do with their own property. This includes that the civil rights act are a violation of a business owners freedom of accociation and property rights.

    The conservative side in me is for freedom from discrimination and employee rights. Just like I’m against any company requiring an employee to join a union to work.

    Safety is highly subjective in any terms. I mean, let’s drive 25mph to save the 1.5M fatalities for the sake of safety, right?

    Fundamentally, whos rights should be protected?

    • 0 avatar
      slavuta

      They will be now saving the planet from CO2 by digging earth and making batteries, which will produce more co2.
      Why not just say, cars are no allowed? Stay home, we will deliver your sausage and soup 3 times a day

  • avatar
    texasjack

    No shot, no work, no brain.

  • avatar
    rhduff

    @ebflex If you believe vaccinations are a personal decision, then I have to assume you’re ok with your kid going to school with other unvaccinated ones and contracting small pox, polio, and countless other diseases. Vaccines are a matter not only of personal health, but also for the greater good. It’s kinda like roads, fire departments, and other socialist infrastructure the regressives love, even though they hate socialism.
    As far as “…Trump’s endless accomplishments…” other than the vaccine (excellent) and the Afghanistan agreement (snark) what are the accomplishments of which you speak?

  • avatar
    Daniel J

    One of the issues I think is being missed here is how long the vaccine this vaccine has been out compared to other vaccines.

    Case in point, the Hepatitis A vaccine was approved in 1995. It didn’t become a requirement to have this vaccine to enter most universities until 1998. That’s 3 years of data before becoming a mandate.

    I remember when the federal government was trying to mandate airbags when in the early days airbags had significant flaws.

    Lets give it time, maybe?

    • 0 avatar
      mcs

      “Lets give it time, maybe?”

      30 Years of development isn’t enough? mRNA vaccine technology was more than ready for the market. 1990 was when they first started to have success with mRNA non-human vaccination experiments. This article is from January 2018.

      https://www.nature.com/articles/nrd.2017.243

      • 0 avatar
        28-Cars-Later

        28 of which it didn’t work at all, no pun intended.

        “However, their application has until recently been restricted by the instability and inefficient in vivo delivery of mRNA. Recent technological advances have now largely overcome these issues, and multiple mRNA vaccine platforms against infectious diseases and several types of cancer have demonstrated encouraging results in both animal models and humans.”

      • 0 avatar
        slavuta

        mcs,

        are you shilling for big pharma here? Yea for 30 years their animals did not do too well.
        If you so confident about this vaccine, why not take legal responsibility if something goes wrong?

        It also says in your article from 2018, about many “Potential safety concerns” –

        “However, recent human trials have demonstrated moderate and in rare cases severe injection site or systemic reactions for different mRNA platforms.
        Potential safety concerns that are likely to be evaluated in future preclinical and clinical studies include local and systemic inflammation, the biodistribution and persistence of expressed immunogen, stimulation of auto-reactive antibodies and potential toxic effects of any non-native nucleotides and delivery system components.
        A possible concern could be that some mRNA-based vaccine platforms induce potent type I interferon responses, which have been associated not only with inflammation but also potentially with autoimmunity”

        • 0 avatar
          mcs

          @slavuta:
          No, not shilling, just telling the truth. The article is from a peer-reviewed journal and it is what it is. Not for or against. THe article is also from 2018 and since then it’s obvious that mRNA vaccines are in fact safe.

          • 0 avatar
            Daniel J

            Development of technology compared to actual vaccine is fundamentally a different thing. A vaccine distributed for 3 or 4 years is fundamentally different than a vaccine being researched.

          • 0 avatar
            FreedMike

            @mcs:

            I’m sure that Comrade Happy would NEVER take a medication that came from Big Pharma.

            Asthma attack? I’ll cure it with roots and berries. Dick not working? No Viagra for me. Cancer? I’ll try bleeding myself – I hear that works great.

            Seriously, from the sound of it, these anti-vaccine types never take any medication. Yeah, right…

          • 0 avatar
            slavuta

            mcs,

            your article was about fundamental science. A group of researches looking for the new treatments, etc.
            But how these Penn Medicine researchers are connected to the German BionTech which developed this vaccine that is made by Pfizer? Or Moderna?

            BionTech must of purchased this idea and had to use applied science to produce a process of creating this substance.

            Pfizer is the manufacturer that can setup BionTech’s technology for the large scale production. Actually – my son is doing exactly this – in the lab environment they setup mini-production for the medicines that later being scaled into a factory size production.

            Saying that mRNA vaccines are safe is irresponsible. Europe has its reporting database. And here is a good summary site with links to the actual database, reporting 12,184 deaths and 1,196,190 injuries as per May 2021. You can dig more. How is this safe?

            https://healthimpactnews.com/2021/12184-dead-1196190-injuries-european-database-of-adverse-drug-reactions-for-covid-19-vaccines/

          • 0 avatar
            Astigmatism

            When you’re left with supporting your arguments by links to chemtrail conspiracy sites, why bother?

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            The deathrate for COVID-19 is 1,600 per million people. The complication/death rate for COVID-19 vaccines is 2 per million.

            To put that in perspective, the mortality rate from acetaminophen toxicity is 2% or 20,000 per million and that drug is considered safe.

        • 0 avatar
          slavuta

          Lou,

          this is speculation.
          1. We don’t know how many people actually died from covid. CDC had changed parameters in 2020 and mess had began. In many places they even rolled back covid deaths by tens of thousands.
          2. Who dies? The average age is 70+. Not everyone needs vaccine.
          3. How do we know, how many unique covid cases we had? I know that when person went to test for employment, had to do 3 tests. And the nurse said, every time test is positive – this is a unique case.
          4. We know that many tests were false positive. A local company here was doing testing in our county. There was a huge scandal that 60% of tests were inaccurate. And that our local gov. wasted $15M
          5. We don’t know how many people had covid and had not done test or treatment.

          Lou, this is all speculation because data is not precise. And vaccination data is also not precise. The reported adverse events DB was always criticized for the matter that it did not have all cases because not every entity reported data religiously. What we do know is number of shots administered. And number of reported adverse effects. And most likely, it is under-reported, so we don’t know all such instances.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            1. We don’t know how many people actually died from covid

            It isn’t hard to get a close number. “Excess deaths”. It’s simple math.

            The rest is just YOU speculating or making sh!t up.

          • 0 avatar
            Daniel J

            @Lou,

            You are actually making the point that many of us have been saying since the covid pandemic started.

            1.5M die every year on the road
            95K die every year from alcohol poisoning
            690K from heart disease.
            30-100K from the flu

            So, why, when it comes to Covid 19, we’ve lost our minds?

            In regards to your statistic regarding the Vaccine, we have ZERO long term side effects calculated.

            Most of the older population in America has been vaccinated. Much of the younger population has not, but statistically they are less likely to have serious illness from Covid.

            In regards to your previous statement about Cancer research, this is a terrible anology. If someone is going to possibly die in months, they sure are going to be in a treatment trial that might save them.

            If, say 40 years ago. we told a woman in their 40’s that we’d have to take their breasts, radiate the area, and pump them full of chemo to save their life, we’d have been called crackpots.

            Historically, cancer research has had many many deaths tied to the treatments.

          • 0 avatar
            slavuta

            Lou

            “Dr. Marty Makary of Johns Hopkins Hospital claimed the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) “sits on a lot of data.” He also suggested the reason why the health organization holds back information is to better support their agenda.”

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            “Historically, cancer research has had many many deaths tied to the treatments.”

            @Daniel J – that’s false unless you happen to live in an area with amoral cowboys as doctors.

            A patient has to meet certain criteria for chemotherapy treatment. If they are too frail, too weak or too advanced they do not get treated.
            In the USA you have to be able to afford treatment. Why don’t you whine about deaths related to that?

            Radiation depends on site/organ and reason for treatment. They can perform rather pinpoint treatment with current Linac machines.

            mRNA and/or monoclonal antibody treatment is a different animal. It can be targeted, block stimulation of cancer cell growth, or trigger Autoimmune responses.

            We don’t see many treatment related deaths. Even in the past, deaths due to medication adverse events are uncommon.

            And no, I’m not making your point. You have to remember that the 649,000 COVID-19 deaths in the USA are WITH mitigation measures in place. Per capita most countries have done much better than the USA.

            Auto deaths: 38,680 in 2020.You’re way off on that one.

            BTW flu cases in the USA are way down and in Canada there has been zero known cases.
            If you are keeping tabs, the USA per capita flu death rates are worse than most countries.

    • 0 avatar
      Astigmatism

      How many other vaccines were administered more than a billion times before people stopped insisting they were somehow experimental and unproven?

  • avatar
    bkojote

    TTAC platforming bullcrap like this is why I use an ad blocker.

  • avatar
    96redse5sp

    Once again, the AntiVa rears it’s head, and with its hand out expects conscientious Americans to subside it’s selfishness, foolishness, and pathological ignorance

    It’s bad enough that we’re forced to contribute (through our health insurance premiums and taxes) the alternative horse de-wormer currently being marketed by the Tea Party Patriots.

    • 0 avatar
      slavuta

      Meanwhile, Taliban is back and now armed with US night vision, which means that our special ops are vulnerable during their active time – the night. And the vaccination is promoted by the same people who did this, the southern border, the inflation. Tea party looks like science-based alternative to what we have today.

      • 0 avatar
        mcs

        @slavuta: “which means that our special ops are vulnerable during their active time – the night.”

        I thought you guys left back in February 1989?

        • 0 avatar
          mcs

          My bad, I guess they’re back again. I see your concerns now:
          https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/International-relations/Afghanistan-turmoil/Russia-looks-to-fill-Afghanistan-power-vacuum-as-US-exits2

          • 0 avatar
            FreedMike

            Funny how Comrade Spunky never complained about this when Trump decided to pull us out. Trump knew it would be a dumpster fire, and so did Bush and Obama, which explains why they never pulled us out.

          • 0 avatar
            slavuta

            msc,

            this is all speculation. First, Taliban is still banned in Russia and considered as Terrorist organization. And to undo that, Russia will seek International effort.
            Russia right now is in the hot seat, and it is because with US out, they have a real issue in their southern direction. Taliban mostly Pustun but 1/4 are now Uzbeks and Tajiks. If they recruit enough of those, the border with Uzbekistan and Tajikistan will become imaginary just like between Afghanistan and Pakistan. Pustuns don’t recognize that line drawn by British and walk all over it.

            Taking over Afghanistan politically also not something Russia can do. Taliban is manipulated by Pakistan and they all in this love triangle with China. Reality is such that this is all working against Russia right now. But the new developments are ahead. Right now it is all well for Taliban but over the winter you will see new forces will come and most likely there will be a war again. What left of Northern Alliance is already sending war calls. But this is Central Asia. This is where things are always done with profit in mind. May be northern alliance says – send us money and weapons, we will fight. They get that, they will send 100 guys into the mountain, will shoot a bit into the air and then they will say – you see, we did it.

          • 0 avatar
            slavuta

            Freed, please… Soviets came out nicely, hence there was a way. And as they said, when soviets were coming out there was 125K fighters after them, and now it is “only” 75K

        • 0 avatar
          slavuta

          mcs,

          I am one of fairly decent size group of people who was witnessing elimination of 2 empires, with 1 being still in progress.

          When “we” left Afghan for the first time, it was done without chaos, with the columns returning home proudly displaying brigade’s flags at full mast. And the regime “we” left behind stayed there for another 3 years, and until moron in the Kremlin cut off supplies to them. This is when Taliban took over.

          Now, in this 2014 video some people are bragging how they install this great “democratic” regime and see how fool they are from 2021 perspective
          https://youtu.be/vSO8ngoZ_44

    • 0 avatar
      dal20402

      The frustrated sentiment around here is starting to bubble over. Our county is over 80% vaxxed and yet we’re still having new case numbers comparable to the worst of the time before the vaccines. Well over half of our new cases and 99.5% of our deaths are from among the 19% unvaxxed minority. People are sick of avoiding indoor spaces and wearing masks (although they continue to do so for the most part), and they are increasingly blaming the antivaxxers. The future in our area is that you won’t be able to enter any business until you are vaxxed, and, honestly, I’m fine with that.

      • 0 avatar
        slavuta

        dal,

        can you please read this from most democratic state of all – MA
        https://www.boston.com/news/coronavirus/2021/08/24/massachusetts-breakthrough-coronavirus-cases-august-24/

        • 0 avatar
          dal20402

          Yes, it confirms what I have been saying. A total of 131 breakthrough deaths ever, against a total of around 19k deaths from COVID in the same state. The vaccinated are far less likely to die, because they get infected less often, and when they do get infected, it’s less severe.

          In my home state of Washington, the picture is even more extreme, because we’ve had higher vaccination rates: 52 breakthrough deaths against roughly 7000 total deaths.

          • 0 avatar
            slavuta

            So, your point is
            – vaccinated people are safer for themselves

            And not
            – unvacccinated are dangerous spreaders

            Because today I heard Standford professor of medicine and another top epidemiologist said that vaccinated people have exactly same ability to spread the disease as unvaccinated.

            Back to you. You just want to tell people, “please get vaccinated”. But you are ok, if person says, “thanks, I’ll take my risk”.

            Is all of the above correct? ^^

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            He’s talking deaths not disease spread.
            Delta variant does spread by vaccinated people. That is why mask mandates are returning BUT if there were less people sick i.e unvaccinated people, the viral load in the population would be less.

  • avatar
    Shockrave Flash Has Crashed

    Companies want to keep costs down and COVID can close an entire plant and cause huge medical costs. They have a fiduciary responsibility to maintain a safe workplace. If you think Blue Cross hasn’t taken this into account, you’re in for a surprise. Tobacco users in my company pay extra already and smoking doesn’t incubate more dangerous variants.

  • avatar
    FreedMike

    Let’s post-mortem this thread, shall we?

    1) Basically, what we have here was a ginormous food fight in which not one word was spoken about cars.
    2) Rehash of the same basic anti-employers-setting-COVID-safety-rules arguments from the same author a few weeks ago, which – surprise! – also ended in a ginormous food fight in which not one word was spoken about cars.
    3) However, this time around, the author managed to say that any of his readers who disagree with him were cowardly and foolish. Presumably he was paid for that. Well, that’s a new development.
    4) And the only other content that actually talked about an actual, four-wheeled, powered vehicle was Rare Rides. Thank God for Corey.

    It seems clear to me it’s time for this site to steer clear of articles like this. I don’t come here for political insight, and the posts that supposedly offer it usually don’t offer much anyway.

    Time for some articles about actual cars.

    • 0 avatar
      Lou_BC

      @FreedMike – this topic has been covered multiple times. We don’t need more coverage.

      Add up the number of people stating they are quitting TTAC.

      Does Posky expect to land a spot at OAN or Fox? or does he expect a flood of Rump 2024 types to join TTAC?

      • 0 avatar
        mcs

        @lou_bc: Yeah, he clearly doesn’t want to be writing about automotive issues. My guess is that he’d rather be at the ny post. There is a lot going on in the automotive world and it gets ignored. Advertisers and affiliates are looking closely at sites that might be considered sources for covid misinformation. They could start losing advertising revenue as well.

  • avatar
    el scotto

    Mr. Poskey doesn’t seem to understand that most jobs that have the few requirements of being a sentient human being come with restrictions. Sure, retail and fast-food employees, and now automotive journalists have few restrictions. When I had my company you had to pass a math test and take a urinalysis test. The math test weeded out the stupid, you’d be surprised that people can’t read a tape measure or add fractions. Our employment form stated YOU WILL BE REQUIRED TO TAKE A URINALYSIS TEST. That weeded out the ignorant and was an insurance requirement. If you did get hired as a laborer or ironworker you had to have your tetanus shot up to date. You also had to wear a hard hat, steel toe boots/shoes and a safety vest. You wore other safety gear if you welded. Our esteemed author is saying that not letting him weld barefoot, in his underwear, and not wearing eye protection is a violation of his rights. This exposes his lack of knowledge of the real world and overall ignorance.

  • avatar
    el scotto

    BTW, most of us who have been vaccinated that we are at the point we’re quoting Forrest Gump “Stupid is as stupid does.”

  • avatar
    Ol Shel

    So, you like when private business can discriminate against those you disagree with, but don’t want it to discriminate against ‘your’ side.

    Got it.

    I thought y’all said that the remedy is to simply not buy their products. What ever happened to that logic?

  • avatar
    ToolGuy

    Now the main point here is, we don’t get Jimmy Chitwood back playing ball, we don’t have a prayer. He switches over to Terhune, we’re in big trouble.

    https://www.imcdb.org/m91217.html

  • avatar
    Old_WRX

    Where I get lost is why people who have gotten vaccinated are so bloody, foaming-at-the-mouth upset about people who haven’t been vaccinated. If the vaccine protects you from the disease then why would you care about someone unvaccinated exposing you to the disease (that you’re supposed to be protected from)?

    • 0 avatar
      Lou_BC

      @Old_WRX – you have to ask that question? SERIOUSLY? WTF!

      If COVID-19 cases skyrocket then restrictions will reoccur. Mask mandates are already recurring. What if a double vaccinated person has a heart attack and can’t get an ICU bed because they are full of unvaccinated COVID-19 patients.
      What about people ineligible for a Vaccine? Rampant COVID-19 puts them at risk.
      Finally, Delta and other such variants are more likely to occur if the virus can still run rampant in a population.

      • 0 avatar
        slavuta

        Delta and other variants occur because of vaccinated people. Its the vaccinated mutate the virus. And vaccinated can pass virus as well as unvax people. May be instead of wasting 2T in Afghanistan we should build hospital beds for pandemics. But no, Barak Hussein care actually the cause of hospitals closing. We have less beds, more population, with mostly illegal population growth because US domestic birth rate is too low to grow the population. Then we have Faucci (not calling him dr. anymore) who created deadly viruses.
        Those are the issues. Not what you are trying to solve here.

        • 0 avatar
          Lou_BC

          @slobuto – you have zero clue what you are talking about. But hey, facts and logic are no longer a prerequisite to blog on TTAC.

          Mutations occur randomly. Every time the virus replicates, there is a chance of mutation. Currently the UNVACCINATED are being hit hard by SARS-CoV-2. That means plenty of opportunities to replicate and to mutate.

          You reduce replication you reduce the odds of mutation.

          It’s that simple.

          And how do we reduce replication and spread?

          Vaccines, masks, and social distancing work.

          • 0 avatar
            slavuta

            BS Lo

            No, Sanjay Gupta says

            “The virus learns how to, sort of, adapt and mutate now to a vaccinated person. Exposing vaccinated people to the virus, you could start to inspire more and more mutations”

            Keep trolling your agenda.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            @slavuto – he’s talking to meatheads like you. He wants people to wear masks.

            Increased exposure equals increased replication equals increased mutations.

            The virus has one purpose and that is to replicate.

            It has a rudimentary doublecheck mechanism on replication. It’s prone to errors unlike human DNA replication. The more it replicates the greater a chance one of those mutations are beneficial. It could go the opposite way. We saw that with MERS and SARS. They mutated themselves out of existence.

          • 0 avatar
            slavuta

            “Two more leading health care regulators, genuine experts in their field, have resigned their long-held positions just as the flu and COVID season is upon us. Their exit follows high-profile resignations at the Centers for Disease Control – Nancy Messonnier and Anne Schuchat. Word is out that these professionals don’t like being issued orders about what the ‘science’ is from the White House before they can make their determinations and they’ll willing to end their careers for it.”

            I am not going to succumb to this “party line science”

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