By on January 31, 2014

2011_Ford_F-250_XLT_--_07-10-2010

TTAC was the first to bring you news of the F-150′s move to aluminum construction, the 2.7L Ecoboost and the delays with the aluminum body panel production. And now we’ve got another bounty of information about upcoming engines, transmissions and other technology for the new F-Series trucks and their full-size SUVs.

TTAC’s sources tell us that even though the next-generation F-150 hasn’t even launched yet, there are already early-cycle and mid-cycle updates in the cards. According to them, Ford is feeling the sting of losing out to Ram on the first half-ton diesel pickup race. A diesel F-150 was in the works, but became a casualty of the recession in 2008. Now Ford is apparently at work on a 3.0L V6 diesel, codenamed “Lion”, that is set to appear by 2018. In other powertrain developments, we’ve learned that the 2.7L Ecoboost will have somewhere in the ballpark of 290-300 horsepower, though torque numbers remain unknown.

Around this time, we’ll also see a number of major developments for Ford’s truck line. A new 10-speed transmission will debut in both trucks and body-on-frame SUVs, as well as a new, aluminum bodied version of the Ford Expedition and Lincoln Navigator. While production will take place in America, development is currently going on at Ford’s Mexican arm.

Despite the push for aluminum bodies, one product that won’t be making the transition is the next-generation of Super Duty trucks. Our source indicates that these trucks will stick with steel bodies, though the reasons behind it are unknown.

 

Get the latest TTAC e-Newsletter!

65 Comments on “Ford Planning V6 Diesel For F-150, Super Duty Stays With Steel...”


  • avatar
    Hummer

    The F250+ are probably staying steel to keep weight up.

    The more you weigh, the safer/better you tow.
    Losing weight would be counter productive for the HD lineup.

    Personally now that the 6.2 is gone, and with it hydraulic steering, I see no reason to even consider the F150, some people will have to go to HD.

    • 0 avatar
      danio3834

      They’re staying steel because it’s cheaper. The F-150 is going aluminum to save weight to meet fuel economy regulations, which don’t apply to most Super Duty trucks. If it weren’t for that, the F-150 would be staying steel too.

    • 0 avatar
      bumpy ii

      The extra weight also pushes the GVWR beyond EPA and CAFE fuel economy demands.

      • 0 avatar
        Hummer

        Also a very good point I completely forgot about.

      • 0 avatar

        “The extra weight also pushes the GVWR beyond EPA and CAFE fuel economy demands.”

        Demands designed to hurt the industry.

        • 0 avatar
          Big Al from Oz

          @bigtrucks
          Boy, you can produce some fine fecal matter.

          The US has a plethora of tariffs, regulations (technical barriers) designed to protects it own indigenous motor vehicle industry.

          It isn’t a socialist plot. It was a combination of the Big 2 (plus Fiat now), the UAW thinking it’s protecting jobs. Farmers protection their corn subsidies, the energy industry protecting lucrative diesel exports to the Eurozone and on and on.

          It isn’t a conspriacy, but created by the same right wing and left wing people working together when necessary.

          • 0 avatar
            Ron B.

            @Big Al from Oz .So right. remember the crap about leather upholstery hides for car seats? Oz sourced product was better,cheaper etc so the US blocked the imports…opening the way for Chinese product.

            But the Americans can be guaranteed to make some dumb decisions. Think back to the GFC. What nearly killed the US auto industry?
            It certainly wasn’t consumer friendly cars . It was the over reliance on big truck sales as I remember it, and not enough emphasis on regular cars… it seems no one learned much at Ford. Post war history of Ford says that is pretty much par for the coarse as the company stumbles from disaster to the next.

      • 0 avatar
        Kinosh

        Ooooo, the president’s announcement about putting fuel economy regulations in place for heavy duty trucks just started to make sense…

        • 0 avatar

          Kinosh

          …only to a liberal.

          • 0 avatar
            Alex Mackinnon

            Because hardcore Republicans don’t try to make sense of things in the first place.

            They just give up, get angry and blame their ignorance on some kind of hilarious conspiracy. Cheap yet depressing entertainment for everyone else.

          • 0 avatar
            TomHend

            @Alex Mackinnon- and what public school did you attend that taught you to be so smug?

          • 0 avatar
            Alex Mackinnon

            Well, for one I’m not American. Public education is pretty decent and cheap in Canada. Which along with healthcare isn’t a controversy, despite having a oil loving neocon governement for the since 2006. Anyways, as far as what public school goes, University of British Columbia – Dept. of Mining Engineering.

            Despite what bigtruckseriesreview says about tensile strength, steel is used primarily in civil construction because it’s cheap. You know, just like concrete. But hey we don’t make cars out of pretensioned concrete beams, now do we? How about slabs of granite? Would a uniaxial compressive strength of 60,000 psi make a material unilaterally good for every automotive application?

            Most of engineering isn’t making things stand up to use, it’s making them an optimal balance of cheap and good. What this genius is ignoring is that the cheapest material for construction isn’t always the best material over the life of the vehicle. Shedding weight makes tonnes of sense when it costs money to the weight around for a long time.

            You don’t see many people complaining that fibreglass fairings on motorcycles is the governments fault now do you?

  • avatar
    rdeiriar

    The Lion V6 and V8 diesel engine family has been in production since 2004, at Ford’s Dagenham Diesel Centre in the UK, mostly for Jaguar Land Rover. The latest 3 litre V6 is a gem of an engine, smooth and very responsive even when moving 2.7 tons of Land Rover. It uses a clever sequential turbocharger setup with a smaller turbo pressurizing the intake of a larger one above 2800 RPM

    • 0 avatar
      BMWnut

      Ford has a reputation for building reliable vehicles to uphold. Jaguar and Land Rover do not have such a problem and can fit anything they want.

      • 0 avatar
        Carlson Fan

        Ford SD diesels are some of the most trouble prone vehicles on the road. Really living up to the acrynom, Fix Or Repair Daily. So they really don’t have a reputation to tarnish.

        • 0 avatar
          mikeg216

          Ah, this guy. Yes of course you are correct! That must be why people who work with their truck for a living be it contractors, tow trucks, plumbers or electricians or just out in the oil patch are 70% Ford 20% Dodge 10% Chevy

          • 0 avatar
            Carlson Fan

            I’ll admit I am amazed how the lousiest truck in this market segment continues to own it year after year. Do you realize that the 6.0 Ford diesel is soo bad that a common fix is to swap them out with a Cummins out of a Dodge? There is guy on one of my boating forums that was pretty proud of the facf that his 6.0 Ford diesel made 260K miles before it self destructed. WOW, what a great truck! He is a doing a Dodge swap to get it on the road again. That’s dedication to owning and driving a Ford product. And don’t get me wrong, I may own a GMC PU and Chevy SUV, but sans the styling, I think the Ford F150 is a great truck and like a lot of the other stuff they make. I just think their diesel SD trucks are garbage.

          • 0 avatar
            DC Bruce

            So that’s why Ford severed its relationship with Navistar, who developed the 6.0 and 6.4 liter diesels in 2010 and earlier SD’s? The Ford-developed 6.7 engine seems to be o.k., however. The earlier ones were not.

          • 0 avatar
            bumpy ii

            Yeah, the Navistar V8s had all kinds of problems. Things got bad enough at one point that Ford and Navi sued each other. You can buy kits to do the Cummins 6BT swap, but I’d do a DT466 just to be different.

          • 0 avatar
            Scoutdude

            @DC Bruce, yes the 6.0 was at the center of the Ford/Navistar divorce. My take was that it was sort of intentional by Navistar. When the 2007 emissions standards were released the EPA offered a carrot in that for every engine that met the 2007 standards that was sold before the requirement took effect they would be able to sell a engine that met 2007 emissions after the 2010 standards took effect. Ford sold way more diesel powered trucks than Navistar did. Navistar rushed the 6.0 to market to earn those credits, not that Ford wasn’t pushing to get it in trucks as soon as possible. The 6.0 had a lot of problems that cost Ford a lot of money in warranty repairs. Navistar said its your problem. Ford stopped paying for the new engines they were supplying. Contract ended and Navistar kept those credits and was able to sell MD and HD trucks that didn’t need urea injection like their competitors.

          • 0 avatar
            mikeg216

            Yes and six years later navistar is still not in compliance with requirements. And gets fined for every truck sold. They are over their pollution credits and have no fix for the 6.0 that being said I know two people that had non stop problems with theirs and Ford bought them back plus cash and discounts on a new truck but everybody else that bought one after the teething issues have had no problem.

          • 0 avatar
            dal20402

            Carlson Fan, you do realize that today’s SD diesels don’t use the 6.0 anymore, right?

            The current Ford-designed engines are doing just fine.

          • 0 avatar
            Carlson Fan

            Yep I know. Still can’t figure why they sell so much better than the Ram and GM trucks considering their past history. The body and chassis IMO leave a lot to be desired compared to the other 2 as well.

          • 0 avatar
            danio3834

            “everybody else that bought one after the teething issues have had no problem.”

            That’s nice, but those engines had extremely high statistical failure rates right up until the end. The “teething issues” were numerous fundamental flaws in basic design. The 6.0L Powerstroke was THE WORST engine of the last decade, bar none.

            The 6.4L Navistar might come close from a poor design perspective, but by the time those hit the market, so many buyers were leery of Ford diesels they sold in much fewer numbers than the 6.0L did in the beginning.

    • 0 avatar
      daver277

      The 4 cylinder PSA versions are absolute gems.
      Too bad we don’t get them on this side of the Atlantic.

      • 0 avatar
        mikeg216

        Those high failure rates are still better than anything made or licensed by gm previous to adopting the Isuzu technology. Congratulations on getting it right once every four decades.

  • avatar
    Drzhivago138

    Is this the same 10-speed auto that they’ve been working on with GM?

  • avatar
    86er

    A Vee-Six diesel?

    • 0 avatar

      Basically in the same class as the diesel Grand Cherokee has.

      • 0 avatar
        dal20402

        And the Ram EcoDiesel.

        This class of engine makes tremendous sense for trucks, particularly in fleet service. Eventually they should downsize even further and have a four-cylinder diesel as the base engine, but I think customer acceptance of the small diesel six needs to happen first.

        A four-cylinder diesel hybrid half-ton truck would be expensive to buy, but get insane mileage — think 50 mpg. It could pay for itself very quickly for buyers who use their trucks 12 or 16 hours per day. Probably too expensive for personal use, though.

        • 0 avatar
          86er

          An inline six already has broad customer acceptance, it’s called the Cummins.

          The diesel six in a vee pattern is what I hadn’t heard of before.

          • 0 avatar
            SC5door

            You haven’t heard of the RAM 1500 EcoDiesel?

          • 0 avatar
            Big Al from Oz

            @86er
            Cummins have the ISF range of diesels. These are being made in China.

            The US EPA and Cummins with Nissan have done extensive testing and development of the 2.8 ISF.

            The Cummins 2.8 ISF is getting about 190hp and 385ftlb of torque. I bet we will see these in the Navara/Frontier pickups in the future.

            Cummins also have a 4 cylinder 3.8 litre ISF. If the same technology applied to the 2.8 ISF was applied to the 3.8 it would develop around 280hp and 550ftlb of torqe.

            This would make a fantastic HD engine and it’s American.

          • 0 avatar
            dal20402

            Big Al, that 2.8 would make a perfect engine for a fleet half-ton truck.

  • avatar
    racer-esq.

    “Despite the push for aluminum bodies, one product that won’t be making the transition is the next-generation of Super Duty trucks. Our source indicates that these trucks will stick with steel bodies, though the reasons behind it are unknown.”

    Aren’t most of the cabs for the semis these guys want to pretend to be driving made out of aluminum?

    A main reason behind it is obvious, it would mean Ford has to update the almost 20 year old cab, not just change the front clip again.

    • 0 avatar
      djwooten

      The cabs on class 8 trucks are made out of aluminum because there is a limit to how much weight they can legally haul and the lighter the tractor, the more money the truck can make.

      The reasons for not going to aluminum have already been discussed and mostly hashed out, there is no need to lighten the super duty as it doesn’t need to meet the same fuel economy standards. Why add cost to it when there is zero benefit to the company and negligible benefit to the consumer? So you can gain a half mile per gallon? That equates to $800 dollars savings at $4.00/gal over 100,000 miles. You’re going to pay more than an $800 premium to have the SD clad in aluminum.

  • avatar
    Big Al from Oz

    I don’t know where you have your information from the Lion diesel has been around for sometime.

    In the 2.7 litre version it is used in Land Rovers and the Ford Territory.

    The 3 litre version is used in the Land Rover and Range Rover.

    A small diesel HD? Hmmm. I get a lot of flack from some of the US pickup fraternity for having a 5 cylinder 3.2 Duratorque in a midsizer.

    The Lion diesel will do the job in a HD, abeit slower. It’s FE should be very good.

    I would buy a trayback (flatbed) 3.2 Transit, if the US had them like us, before a 3 litre Lion HD for work.

    But at least Ford is trying.

    A 3.8 ISF Cummins could be a better option if the Cummins was developed further like Cummins had done with the 2.8 ISF.

    • 0 avatar
      bball40dtw

      Its a start Al. The Transit will be getting the 3.2L here. The launch of the Transit keeps getting pushed back though. Originally, it was supposed to be out already. The 2015 F150 and Super Duty have taken priority.

      • 0 avatar
        Big Al from Oz

        @bball40dtw
        The great thing about the 3 litre class diesels which many don’t look at is the drivetrains are already mass produced for gasoline V8s.

        This will reduce costs and development time.

      • 0 avatar
        Big Al from Oz

        @bball40dtw
        Also, it appears you could be correct about the Lion moving to the new F-150. But, I would think it would be the premium engine.

        The Lion’s are an expensive engine even by diesel terms, hence they have been used in prestige and luxury vehicles in the past.

        Maybe time has reduced their costs.

        I’m expecting at least 250hp and 440ftlb of torque out of them in the pickups.

      • 0 avatar
        bball40dtw

        Regardless of the specifics, I am happy that there will be more choice in the F-series lineup, and trucks in general.

        I know there are always arguements about medium sized pickups and diesel pick ups around here. While I question how they will both sell, I would love a F150 diesel or even a diesel Ranger. I don’t care if its the 3.0L or 3.2L. I could see either one replacing our large CUV. An aluminium Expedition with the 3.0L diesel would make me openly weep from happiness.

  • avatar
    twintornados

    Ok…why would Ford got through all that when the 3.2L Powerstroke (Duratorq in European trim) is already federalized for Transit Full Size?? The fitment of 3.2L I5 diesel in F150 would be a natural expansion of an already proven powertrain.

  • avatar
    kincaid

    I love to read the pickup truck blog entries. Everything is a threat to manhood. Extra weight is not an advantage ever. Peterbilts have used aluminum cabs for years. Big trucks have aluminum wheels and some even tow beautiful aluminum trailers. This is because every pound of truck is a pound of cargo you can’t haul.
    Get over the aluminum. Thousands of airplanes have been flying around for 50 years…made completely of aluminum. Aluminum is not a threat to your manhood.

    • 0 avatar
      Z71_Silvy

      Airplanes, trailers, and semis are not light duty pickup trucks. Nor are they built by a manufacturer as incompetent as Ford.

      And the trailers and semis still have corrosion issues and issues with paint adherence. Heck, Ford can’t even figure out how to get paint to stick to steel let alone aluminum

      • 0 avatar
        Charliej

        Ford still has not gone bankrupt. GM fanboys seem to forget that.

      • 0 avatar
        mikeg216

        This from a supporter of a company that so tarnished the reputation of diesel engines that it has set back American car buyers so far it has been 30+ years and people still speak of the oldsmodiesel debacle like it was last week.

        • 0 avatar
          Z71_Silvy

          Where are you getting that I’m a supporter of GM?

          Because of a internet username? Wow, the ignorance is strong with this one.

          But at least GM knows weary they are doing when painting a vehicle and how to make a reliable engine that doesn’t guzzle gasoline.

    • 0 avatar
      Big Al from Oz

      @kincaid
      I have seen much and experienced much argument in relation to the US pickup truck crowd.

      The odd issue I have found is many don’t want to know or aren’t prepared to accept change, even if this change is beneficial to them.

      I have found many US bloggers can’t even reason/believe that many countries outside of the US could envisage there are many countries with living standards comparable to the US or even better.

      Pickups are a global vehicle more so than any other commercial vehicle. The odd thing is outside of the US most pickups are only bought to earn a living from. But this is also changing. Australian’s now buy most pickups, or as we call them utes for recreational purposes. But we buy a significantly higher proportion of 4x4s and most are diesel.

      • 0 avatar
        RobertRyan

        @Big Al from OZ,
        You might add Pickups are virtually non-existent in Europe and Russia. Heavily used in Asia(except North Asia), North America,Australia , New Zealand . Moderately used in Africa, India, Middle East and Latin America.
        They are also used as “cars” outside NA.

      • 0 avatar
        mikeg216

        Rather amount of diesels you buy has to do with the fact that your petrol /diesel taxes are the opposite of ours, nothing more.

        • 0 avatar
          RobertRyan

          @mike216 Absolutely nothing to do with it. People like the “grunt” of diesels. For a light use Pickup the cost of diesel too petrol is not that much. Also diesel is more expensive here.
          On the other hand a V10 Triton in a Motorhome would be changed to LPG.

  • avatar
    ajla

    I don’t see how semi-tractors and airplanes at much, MUCH higher price points (that aren’t built by Ford in the first place) using aluminum in their construction means that people should be a-okay with Ford using it so completely in their lighter duty truck line.

  • avatar
    Lou_BC

    @Kincaid – correct. Nothing like a truck blog to bring out all of the bloggers compensating for a wee schmeckle.
    @Carlson Fan – Who makes that engine in the Dodge er Ram er FCA truck?
    That would be Cummins.
    Ever look up who Cummins sells engines to?
    Ford uses Cummins and Allison in their commercial trucks along with other drivetrains.
    It would make sense to swap a dead shitty 6.0 Cornbinder engine for a CUMMINS I6.

    @Z71_Silvy – on the subject of incompetence, GMC has the record for the worse corporate losses of any USA company. 3 of the bottom 10 (or top 10 worst losses depending on your point of view) were from GMC.

    Most fleet trucks do not sell with diesels. Big fleets tend to buy what ever is the cheapest and a 10K price premium rules out diesel.

    Fastlane Truck did a quick comparison of the 2014 Ram 6.4 coil spring 4×4 against the 6.2 Ford and the 6.0 Chevy.
    It was embarrassing for Ram.
    Both the Ford 6.2 and Chevy 6.0 had better acceleration times. One tester felt that the Chevy rode better than the Ram.

  • avatar

    Okay, now I want a Raptor SUV made of aluminum with a 3.0 diesel. I’ll sell my Suburban 2500 4×4 for one.

  • avatar
    kyjoe1

    I work at the Kentucky Truck Plant body shop where the Super Duty is built. We also heard the rumors about staying steel. I asked our manager that is in charge of launching new products in the body shop and he assured me that we will be going to aluminum. It is too far into the works to turn back now. We are getting ready to build a whole new body shop just for this reason.


Back to TopLeave a Reply

You must be logged in to post a comment.

Subscribe without commenting

Recent Comments

New Car Research

Get a Free Dealer Quote

Staff

  • Contributing Writers

  • Jack Baruth, United States
  • Brendan McAleer, Canada
  • Marcelo De Vasconcellos, Brazil
  • Vojta Dobes, Czech Republic
  • Matthias Gasnier, Australia
  • W. Christian 'Mental' Ward, Abu Dhabi
  • Mark Stevenson, Canada
  • Cameron Aubernon, United States
  • J Emerson, United States