Here’s TTAC’s and the web’s only complete guide to Toyota’s gas pedals (so far), with tear downs, pictures, analysis, explanation, the shim fix, and commentary, all consolidated into one portal:
Part 1: Exclusive: TTAC Takes Apart Both Toyota Gas Pedals: Tear down of both the recalled CTS pedal assembly and the non-recalled Denso pedal assembly. Note: Assumptions and conclusions in this initial tear down lack the more complete understanding of the importance of the friction arm aspect of the CTS unit.
Part 2: Toyota Gas Pedal Fix Explained – With Exclusive Photos: Describes Toyota’s proposed fix for the recalled CTS gas pedal assembly, with detailed photos and graphics. Explains the significance of the friction arm assembly and its limitations.
Part 3: Toyota Gas Pedal Fix Simulated – Friction Reduced, By Too Much?: TTAC simulates the fix prescribed by Toyota for the recalled CTS pedal assembly, and notes how the fix changes the degree of friction, and the possible unintended result. With detailed pictures
Part 4: Why Toyota Must Replace Flawed CTS Gas Pedal With Superior Denso Pedal: Detailed analysis with pictures of the two pedal assemblies, an explanation as to why the Denso design is superior, and a call for having all CTS pedals replaced with the Denso pedal.
Part 5: TTAC Does The Toyota Pedal Shim Fix: Stop Gap Solution At Best: Toyota’s solution is carried out here with detailed pictures, the whole Toyota document detailing the fix, and our commentary.
Part 6: Toyota Floor Mat/Gas pedal Recall Includes Computer Reflash And Trimming Of Gas Pedals: Info on the details of the floor mat/gas pedal interference recall.
Part 7: Toyota Recall Creates Unintended Accelerator Consequences: As predicted in Part 4 (above), the CTS shim fix reduces the carefully designed amount of friction required for comfortable and smooth pedal action to the point where pedal action may now be jerky and potentially unsafe.
(Thanks to you-know-who-you-are for access to these parts and info)
Tagged as comparing toyota gas pedals, CTS, cts gas pedal, Denso, denso and cts gas pedals compared, denso gas pedal, gas pedal pictures, gas pedal shim, gas pedal teardown, gas pedals explained, hoe electronic gas pedals work, how gas pedals work, NHTSA, recalled CTS gas pedal, recalled gas pedal fix, recalled sticky gas pedal, sticky gas pedal, toyota gas pedal, toyota gas pedals taken apart, toyota recall, toyota recalled gas pedals, toyota's gas pedal fix
79 Comments on “The Complete Guide To Toyota Gas Pedals: Teardown, Pictures, Toyota’s Fix, Analysis, And Commentary...”
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This is some pretty impressive journalism, guys.
Major respect. You are taking the facts and making not only a great narritive, but also educated insight into the future.
As a Toyota employee – I support this site! So far ;)
The next big piece is…..
either what Toyotas have which design OR how to tell them quickly apart when you’re squirming under the dash to figure it out.
My wife has a Corolla, y’know and no life insurance :(
CTS: Look for little silver sheet metal plates on either side (not shown in the reference photos – but they cover the bronze bushing/steel axle).
Nippondenso: Look for 4 (four) screwheads on the left side of the assy (not to be confused with the two threaded fasteners, one on either side, that attach the assy to the dash panel.)
The units are so different on the outside (as on the inside) that you can’t help but recognize the difference between them.
After Secretary LaHood told us to park our Toyotas and hide under our beds, it would be nice to have a ‘What are the odds’ estimate – how many incidents divided by the estimated total number of miles driven in affected Toyotas. This could be compared to odds of other adverse outcomes.
I don’t have a Toyota, but if I did, I’d drive it just to spite him. Needs to be fixed, but on any given day, what ARE the odds?
If I recall, it’s about on par with being struck by lightning.
Is that the “never strikes twice (1x/ever)”, the “Roy Sullivan (7x/35yr)”, or the “Empire State Building (23x/yr)”?
Odds are also against dying in a car … so why do we wear belts?
Regardless of odds, if it happens to you, then probability = 1.
Paul N – my husband, who is an aircraft mechanic for a major a/line, was really impressed with your analysis of the designs of the 2 pedals. I hope that this pedal issue is the problem behind UA, but have a niggling feeling that it could be the pedal and/or some other funky electronic/ sensor type malfunctions at least in some of the cases. As a nurse I do realize that my niggling feelings are pretty meaningless however!! I tend to prefer the idea of the driver operating a car mechanically rather than a computer essentially operating a car. However technology doesn’t go backwards and we are probably stuck with the computers. Aircraft are even more computer-operated than cars (although UA may be less of a problem in the air than on the road possibly??). Wouldn’t it be a nice luxury to have the equivalent of a flight recorder box in cars to track when and why these UA’s occur??
Will still drive my new RAV with its denso pedal and hope for the best, with my hand hovering near the gear stick ready to flip into neutral. Glad I didn’t trade in my old minivan either – a back-up may be handy. I couldn’t have picked a worse time to buy my 1st Toyota – figures.
hey lass, interesting observations, thanks. A couple of comments, in aircraft, don’t think in terms of UA being the issue, although it could be (eg pulling into gate), think instead in terms of an uncommanded engine deceleration or control surface change (e.g. flaps on one side of the craft retracting during climb-out, like AA191 (different reason but same result)); Re. your new Rav4, just remember “that which doesn’t kill us makes us stronger”!
Someone told me one day. Pedro the reason there are more plane accidents now days is because of computers. Before they could override malfunctioning systems and still drive the plane…. I agree that the acelerator should be a wire not a sensor. If the Toyota accelerator got stuck it could have been fixed by a simple spring. But I suspect they are not telling the whole story (surprised?).
Things like power steering systems that don’t have a direct link to the driver trhu a shaft really scare me.And I always have said that ABS if for people that never bothered to really learn how to drive or drive too fast too close (as I said can’t drive well).
I am pretty sure today’s cars have a way for forensic scientists to access data. Just like airplane’s “black boxes”. Hey a black term that is actually positive…LOL.
Well. Very good and informative article. I also enjoyed the comments from all readers.
Regards
Pedro Talavera.
The pedal teardown could inspire a new method of reviewing vehicles–focusing not just on the driving experience, but also on the good or bad engineering behind a design.
The automakers already do it for Competitive Assessment. In fact, my current car has an HVAC control that my team reverse engineered for a CA in 1996.
Sounds like we need a bigger garage. And can we tell the manufacturers to come pick up their car in pieces, ’cause I like taking apart a lot more than putting back together?
Contrarian,
I find that fascinating. Can you tell us more about CA? How extensive are the automakers’ teardowns of other vehicles? Do they really get into small component parts? DIs this for engineering assessments and/or to make cost analyses? To get ideas?
+1 on the above. Sounds like it has potential to be a feature article on TTAC, even.
I think Toyota is in big trouble here regardless of how the facts come out. The folks running Wash DC these days are powered by trial lawyers and the UAW. Two constituencies eager to have Toyota skewered and fried.
No not fried and skewered just held to the same standard! and as far as fried and skewered goes Toyota is doing a fine job all by themselves by not addressing the customer complaints in a timely manner! Hell people are dying!
I taught the brake, neutral, engine off, scenario to a coworker today. He could not believe the brakes would overpower the engine and how easy it was to control a runaway accelerator….
If anything, we can use this publicity to teach something…
As with every situation, there is more at play than just the pedal.
The pedal (and it’s varying designs) are one part of the engine management/ignition/drive/braking systems. The information and data they send to the “fly by wire” system, must be analysed by an electronic contol unit (ECU)BEFORE it sends the information to the fuel injectors and so on.
In most makes of automatic gearboxed cars, WHEN the foot brake is applied the engine management brain, sends a signal that overrides any information it gets from the gas pedal, thus stopping the engine from “racing”. I understand Toyota is now considering adding this feature to their software.
SO while the gas pedal, may seem to be the culprit, it actually may be the symptom of a poorly designed “system” without enough safety overrides, the same overrides used by Toyota’s competitors.
The other piece of this which really puzzles me is, in all cars, the brakes are designed to be more than capable of overcoming the engine. In fact Car and Driver magazine has completed a test, using a Camry which shows exactly that. So that suggests to me, that the brake function has either been hindered OR rendered completely non functioning. But seeing as this is a hydraulic system, unless it is also Fly by wire then it should work, even if the ABS portion became inoperable. IF it were a fly by wire design (which is rare for braking systems. Mercedes gets hammered for their attempts at it) then would it be possible to assume the the Electronic control module and software have lost their minds? I welcome comments and knowledge on this thought.
Look Bruce with all your facts about possible design flaw(s) and safety overrides and how Toyota’s competitors use safety overrides you’re not leaving any room to bash UNION WORKERS! Hell from what I read on this website the UNION has been the cause of every/any problem with G.M. and Chrysler! It’s not bad design! It’s the “BLOODY UNION WORKERS”! (Excuse me!!) How could I have forgotten Toyota ISN’T UNIONIZED?
Toyota needs to step up to the plate. Clearly this is a design flaw and will make the cars unsafe in the future. They need to replace the peddle and put it behind them. TOYOTA customers have the power to do this by complaining about the peddle feel and lack of confidence that there vehcle is “truely” safe again.
I still believe the problem is not a mechanical one, but an electrical one. The throttle position sensor would be suspect as well as the ECM or inherent firmware. How many sticking “gas pedals” did we ever have with carburetor equipped vehicles??? I can’t recall any recalls.
Believe me, as a connoisseur of the NHTSA recalls database, I can tell you that stuck carb/throttle-body cables caused regular recalls due to a multiplicity of failure modes (detailed in an earlier posting of mine here on ttac.)
Audi faced something relatively similar in the past. A good article on this is here: http://www.examiner.com/x-37585-Austin-Audi-Examiner~y2010m2d5-Audis-Unintended-Acceleration
Had the dealership check the Camry this morning. I had already identified the unit as a Denso model but I wanted to hear the tech explain the “fix” for the sticking issue. I was happy to hear that the fix for my car was what I had expected from the floormat recall. They plan to trim the pedal and cut out the carpet/padding under the pedal and install a filler plate. This is to provide safe space for the floormat in case it slips under the pedal. I can confirm that the pedal was lodged against the mat, it was quick wits that said “pull the pedal up” and prevented an accident. As for the CTSA pedals, I am wondering if there really is any problem at all. The number of US/Canada made Toyotas with the Denso pedal is greater than the media leads us to believe. I have contacted CTS and they are overwhelmed. I work for a major Toyota supplier and have never suspected the company of scapegoating to save face. I will continue to follow GOOD media such as this site. I am new here but I am very impressed at the great journalism I have read. Thank You!
Hello,
I hope my question doesn’t sound too stupid to you but as somebody who has rarely driven an automatic (and that was more then 15 years ago) I was wondering if one of you could clarify some thing for me.
There are reports that cars (toyotas) have accelerated out of controll an crashed at high speed due to the accelertor pedal beeing stuck in full throttle.
Why do these drivers not simply put the car in neutral which is easy with a manual transmission, but is this possible in a modern automatic ?
Alternatively, turn the key and kill the engine (although that requies a level of clear headedness which i suspect some dont have in such circumstances).
Also, are breakes not strong enough to decellerate a car even with engine at full throttle?
Sometimes when I go through a deep puddle, or ford, I step hard on the accellerator and break at the same time tto heat up the disks to dry them off and I find that I can easily counteract the power generated by the engine although I have to admit that I only have a 75 kW engine ( and NO its ot a Toyota – its a Skoda Fabia).
The discussions on the engineering problems in the pedal design and the images are very informative and authorative
Thanks in advance for your comments.
Regards
Robert
Yes, the solution is to put the transmission in neutral. It appears many have forgotten this, and some new shifter make this somewhat confusing.
Yes, the brakes are more powerful, but should not be pumped repeatedly because it might drain the stored vacuum in the power brake booster. They should be applied once, and continuously.
Yes, turn off engine. In some new cars, that can be confusing, like having to hold down on the start/stop button for more than three seconds.
Take the plastic wear pieces and look at them under a powerful microscope. You are looking for smooth continuous plastic (good virgin plastic) or something that looks like the surface of the moon (made in china or re-molded or contaminated). The root cause of design failure may be contaminated plastic causing mechanical joint failure due to friction rather than -only- a bad design. Try around 1000x to see if the plastic is ‘pitted’.
Has anyone driven a “fixed” Toyota yet? I wonder if there is any difference in the feel of the accelerator. Bringing in my 2010 Rav tomorrow for the new part…
I’m a retired chief engineer who worked with fbw aircraft flight and engine controls. All were at least dual redundant for fault detection. These dbw sensors are not redundant therefore failure modes and effects are more critical.
I now own two Toyotas both having Denso pedal assemblies. Based on the reported faults I’m glad they are not CTS.
Way, way back in the Day, Henry Ford sent an engineer
on a Junkyard survey, to see which parts of his cars
broke most often; One part never broke, so Ford had it
de-engineered. The more things change, the more it is
the same old thing all over again.
There is one place where one is _perfectly_ safe,
but is cold, dark, and lonely there.
P.S. If this had happened to a Government Motors design,
would the claim be that the system had worked as designed ?
I recently came across a website called wwww.safetyresearch.net and it covered an extensive research about Toyota vehicles going back as far as 2000 – 2010 that have has SUA (sudden unintended acceleration) all documented with the NHTSA.. They provided over a 1,000 cases of this problem on their PDF which is 180 pages long.
This seems to be thorough research that Toyota should read and not ignore. It seems that when Toyota went to the ETC (electronic throttle control) in their cars they started having problems with the vehicles that were equipted with it. Unexplainable sudden unintended acceleration. Please everyone take the time to go to this website and view the findings there.
Interestingly enough, I have owned two Totoya Camrys in the past. one was a 1984 Camry which I traded in for a used 1989 Toyota Camry in 1991. Both cars never had the acceleration problem. I traded in my 1989 Toyota Camry in December 2004 for a 2004 Chevy Aveo thinking it would be just as good as a Toyota. I was wrong. Good thing I purchased the extended warranty with zero deductible, it saved me a lot of repair cost in the long run, especially when the engine crashed a little about 56,000 miles. They put a refurbished engine in it.
I now own a 2009 Toyota Camry Le that has cruise control on it. I will hesitate to use the cruise control in the future since it might be linked to some of the SUA problems mentioned in the PDF report from Safety Research..
Please click on the link provided to go to the PDF. Thanks and I hope Toyota solves the problem od SUA forever like Volkswagen did in their vehicles. Here it is – http://www.safetyresearch.net/Library/ToyotaSUA020510FINAL.pdf
If this problem has been evident for 10 years, there is no excuse for this defect to continue; and Toyota needs to get its Japanese act together.
If this has occurred this long, how could it be what Toyota is saying? Again, it sounds like a bug in their computer program running the ECM. I am sure there were few changes (if any) in the program since the emissions and OBD II hasn’t changed during this period. And with all the different suppliers over this period of time, it is hard to believe that this defect is related to carpets, or an accelerator pedal. Some of the comments mentioned relative to stopping a runaway “pedal to the metal” Toyota, by turning off the ignition, standing on the brakes, or shifting into neutral. It would be nice to hear what occurred after any of these things were done! This needs to be done to isolate or track down what is doing what!
Safetyresearch article is an excellent document that mentions a cost reduction in 2002 models as to the throttle position sensor. Looking at the graph of reported acceleration surges, the 2002 model showed a sky-rocketed incidence of problems. Seems to have continued after that time. Is Toyota deaf, dumb, and blind?
Gee, as the owner of a 2005 Prius, a 2009 Camry, and a 2010 Tacoma, I have been triple screwed by the Toy factory over this recall. Actually the Prius and Camry are great vehicles, but I have some trouble with the Tacoma, which is my vehicle. The gas and brake pedals on the Tacoma are too close together, hence when breaking my foot also depresses the accelerator, and when accelerating, the same foot is on the brake pedal. This is a major problem, that was not detected during my test drive around the dealers parking lot at idle speeds.
This is a work truck, with the driver wearing work boots, not baby shoes. I would have thought the Toy engineers would have designed for that. (I dont have Frankenstein feet) Has any other Tacoma owners had the same problem as I ?
This is outrageous! I just finished reading the safety research PDF. There is NO way this problem is mat related or pedal related, and yet they still are sticking by those explanations! Unbelievable! I am always so suprised when I find out I’m being lied to. I’ll take my 2007 Camry in when they notify me, but I know it’s a placebo. I have told my wife to remember the only thing that can save us is shifting into neutral. Slam the shifter forward and stand on the brakes. Good Lord!
I just got off the phone with Rob, my toyota “case manager”. Wow, what a pile of poo these folks are shoveling. Toyota now says there are certain production runs of CTS pedals that are ok and certain production runs of CTS pedals that are not ok… really? This is toyota’s A game? I asked him how they were able to determine the particular production run my CTS pedal assembly and he said he did not know. I asked if there was a particular number, letter, or series of numbers/letters in the VIN that identified the particular production run of the CTS pedal… he said he didn’t have that info. (more poo) I asked him if he could get the info for me… he said no.
So, I called my toyota dealer and asked if he knew of certain CTS pedals that were now deemed ok and others that are not and he said to his knowledge, all CTS pedals in the identified vehicles are part of the “sticky pedal” recall and he knew nothing of good vs. bad CTS pedals. Then he said something that threw me for a loop: Part of the “fix” toyots has schemed-up is to have techs in the field evaluate the recalled CTS pedal assemblies using “feeler guages” and the like to determine if the pedals are currently out of tolerances. If they are out of tolerances, they insert a shim of the appropriate thickness. If they decide the pedal is within tolerances, they do not do anything to it. Again, …realy? So now we are to understand that the vehicles toyota has identified with faulty CTS accelerator pedal assemblies are only to be given a “fix” when a tech in the service department of your local dealership says so? ….Really? Not to disparage the techs working hard day-in and day-out, but Toyota already identified the affected years and models with the defective parts didn’t they?
This is the biggest pile of hot steamy fecal matter I have seen in a long while, save for the general condition of the US congress…. another topic for another blog. I digress. I wonder if any other folks out there are getting the same run around from toyota.
BTW, Great website! I am happy to have found it. Keep up the good work!
The master of this site, Paul Niedermeyer, has posted the service bulletin Toyota sent to its dealers. In it, they show that CTS pedals made in the middle of January and beyond do not require the shim. Of those that do, everyone does get a shim part that depends upon the feeler gauge gap. The service bulletin is at: http://images.thetruthaboutcars.com/2010/02/Tech-Instructions-Preliminary-Posting-BIL.pdf .
Thanks for the info Evan. I am still blown away that my dealer didn’t have the info to pass to me. Like I said, thankfully I have found this site. Makes my dealer look like a johnny-come-lateley, but at least I have the info now. BTW, can you tell me what the difference in the manufacturing is? Material composition? Were potential issues identified at that time and the “fix” quietly brought online? Makes you wonder…
Do you think the reason the Feds are being so tough on Toyota is because they are the proud owners of GM and Chrysler? The media has not presented a balanced view of recalls conducted by the other manufacturers. I wonder how the Feds feel about the fact that Toyota employs a minimum of 200,000 Americans and adding them to the unemployed won’t help anyone.
I don’t feel Toyota has handled this well from a PR stand but the media witch hunt is digusting!
…Toyota employs witches now?!! Wow, this goes deeper than we ever imagined.
This sort of thing can happen to any manufacturer at any given time, so I agree with Mr. Feever on that. But I think most people are just as disgusted when any mega-corporation, beit Ford, microsoft, or (insert name here) has worked into its master-plan an “acceptable” number of defects, mishaps, and even tragedies. I own my own small business and I would be out on my @$$ if I relied on bean counters, odds-makers, and overpriced lawyers to keep me in business… Then again, if it can work for Ford, Boeing, and yes Toyota, then maybe that IS the way to do business after all… Wait, maybe those guys are on to something here!
pjrfortin: Since Toyota started using a redesigned CTS pedal last January and the shim fix came out within weeks, my guess is Toyota/CTS have been working on this problem for quite a while — way before the recall was announced. Paul Niedermeyer has evidence that Toyota changed the friction arm material once before in 2007 indicating that the stiction problem on the accelerator pedal is not new. (See: http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/why-toyota-must-replace-flawed-cts-gas-pedal-with-superior-denso-pedal/ )
Toyota says the new pedal and shim fix are both effective (and permanent) solutions to the stiction problem. They never specifically said the pedal uses a shim. My best guess is that some of the shapes and/or materials of the parts used in the new pedal were redesigned to eliminate stiction. (Using the shim as an additional part would just add cost.) So far, I haven’t read whether there is a different “feel” between the new pedal and the shimmed pedal.
It will be interesting to watch what will come out of this. I personally believe this fix is a joke and will further erode Toy’s credibility. I wonder if they will flash new firmware into the ECM while the vehicle is in the shop for the phony fix. I’ll say one thing about the old Chrysler Corp.; they never issued a phony recall fix to my knowledge.
Just read the Toyota PDF…good work in 2 Languages.
Seems like lawyer bait to add these notes (if anything goes wrong after the “fix”).
NOTE:
Do not clean out any debris caused by wear; this may trap
debris in the pedal causing future malfunctions.
ACCELERATOR PEDAL HANDLING NOTES:
• DO NOT drop: DO NOT reuse an accelerator pedal that has been dropped. Avoid vibration and shock. *To be performed only by a Licensed Technician.
Hmmmm…. Does this mean the pedal needs to be replaced after a fender bender? How will I know if a “shock” to the delicate accelerator pedal was too traumatic?… I am just about to rip out the engine and computer brain of my wife’s camry and drop in a chevy small block with good ol’ carbeuration and connect a cable to it from my bottom-hinged, barefoot shaped, aftermarket accelerator pedal!! ARRGGHHH!!!
To the best of my knowledge there has never been a gas pedal (accelerator) problem causing a recall of this magnitude with the Big 3. My ’46 Dodge Pick-up with 217.76 cid flat-head SIX is extremely simple, gets excellent gas mileage and No stinking computer system to screw things up. We’ve gotten way too complex with autos, and with the EMP lurking in the future, everybody with the new stuff will stop and be stranded without warning.
Paul, I stumbled accross this site last week and learned more about the whole pedal thing in detail in 5 mintues than listening to the on-again-off-again Toyota corporation big wigs and national news. Thanks for the excellent photos, details, and blogs on this topic. My questions is this: IF THE “FIX” DOES NOT WORK AND THERE ARE MORE RUNAWAY INCIDENTS, WITH BOTH TYPE OF PEDALS DOES THAT POINT TO THE REAL CAUSE WHICH COULD BE THE COMPUTER ISSUE?
Thanks to all who have contributed to this site. I have a 2009 Corolla with a Densco pedal and VIN# that starts with a “J” which is not on the recall list.
I own a 63′ ford f100 292 y-block, a 68′ chevy G10 sportvan shorty painted up like the authentic mystery machine refitted w/ a 292 straight six, 60′ and 68′ beuhler turbocraft jet boats with chrysler 318′s… I agree, all pretty user friendly and easy to understand. Just like my bride. She likes the new stuff, hence the toyota camry… at least she did. The mystery machine is looking prettttty good lately! My stock is at an all time high, too! I think the toyota debacle could end up being a nice shot in the married arm after all. whooda thunk.
Love this website and blog!
You might want to read this: “Regulators Hired by Toyota Helped Halt Investigations” at Bloomberg:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=atXvi2msqPOM
jkarren, Thanks for the linkto that compelling article. It seems to me that all these, so called “investigations” are focusing on the mechanical aspects of the isolated components. I have yet to hear or see any of these investigations discuss how they have tested or evaluated the computer control systems on these vehicles.
Is there a way to do that? Can an independent agency or third party get into the grey matter of these piles of crap and see actual code and test parameters and variables? If not, then why? …Oh, let me guess… “Proprietary information is contained within the programming and its divulsion would give competitors an unfair advantage and illegal access to the patented software, or firmware , or freakin’ underware, for chrissake!”
Sort of like saying “We, Toyota, have installed a mystical crystal orb that controls your car. So, only we, Toyota, can look into it and see if you, the lowly driver, has done something to piss Fujimooshoo, the God of Toyota safety, off… If you have had no problems, then Fujimooshoo is pleased. If you end up a smoking pile of twisted steel, then it is only because you angered Fujimooshoo and incurred his wrath!”
I think Fujimooshoo actually owes me money, now that I think of it…
Any of you people on this blog will have to realize ONE MAJOR MATTER; when you buy a modern car with an “Engine Control Module” or engine control computer; you bought the modern car, YOU DID NOT BUY THE SOFTWARE! I think the majority of people do not realize this fact!
The software (firmware) REMAINS the property of the auto manufacturer, even though the vehicle with the computer was sold.
Ahhh, I see… The fujimooshoo force is strong with Obi Won Keller…
Just making light of the posts, no offense intended. However, it is good to know. It does make sense that Toyota or any other “modern car” manufacturer would not want to include their mystical crystal orbs as part of the sale of the car. I am curious what other unknown things are going on with them… Does it record data? Is that data retreived by technicians at 30k, 60k 100k “scheduled” mainainance visits? Is that data transmitted and stored in a data base deep within the toyota death star? What info is recorded? was there somewhere in the fine print of the sales agreement when I purchased the camry that would explain this? Is the Evil Empire even legally obligated to disclose that type of info?
OK, playing the star wars thing a bit heavy, but the questions still stand. Also, seems like a goldmine of an opportunity for aftermarket ECU’s to be manufactured, marketed and sold to folks who want nothing more than to return Toyotas crystal orb back to them. Also, there would be a visceral pleasure in ripping out a “company” brain and replacing it with completely “tweakable” brain that could be plugged into your own laptop.
I think I’ll give the project to my fourteen year-old… He should have it ready for next weekend.
Here is some more information that may get Toyota back in the graces with potential future buyers. I hope it pans out for people like myself that were on the recall list for my 2009 Toyota car.
I hope they recall my car as well regarding this. I already went to the dealer and had the shim put in my pedal recently.
see : http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2010/02/toyota-to-add-brake-override-system-on-all-new-cars.html
Toyota will roll out a new brake override system on all 2011 models, beginning with the redesigned 2011 Sienna minivan this month, followed by the 2011 Avalon sedan. In April, which is when the automaker begins building certain 2011 models, “the plan is to start upgrading all new Toyota, Lexus and Scion vehicles coming out of the plants with this upgrade,” spokesman Curt McAllister said. The brake override system cuts engine power and allows braking even if the accelerator pedal is depressed.
While the system will be new for several Toyota models, a number of automakers have adopted brake override systems — some for as long as a decade — as a last-ditch measure against unintended acceleration. All Toyota hybrids already employ the system, Toyota says; the company says as part of its ongoing recall for floormat entrapment, which was announced in September 2009, it will install the brake override systems onto all model years of the Toyota Camry and Avalon and Lexus ES and IS models included in that recall. The company has not added the brake override system as part of its remedy for the 2.3 million vehicles recalled last month due to sticky accelerator pedals, and there have been “no discussions on upgrading [other] vehicles already on the road,” McAllister said.
The 2011 Sienna minivan, which hits dealerships this month, is the first all-new model to include it standard. We’ve pulled together a Q&A below.
Is there a specific date after which all Toyotas will have a brake override system?
No. Rather, all 2011 models will have the system, Toyota spokesman David Lee told us. With the exception of the redesigned 2011 Sienna, which arrives this month, other 2011s should trickle onto dealer lots beginning in April. By late in the year, nearly all Toyota, Lexus and Scion models rolling off the factory line will be 2011 models — and thus include a brake override system.
Will Toyota install the system on any 2010 or older models?
No, except for the 2005-2010 Avalon, 2007-2010 Camry and Lexus ES, and 2006-2010 Lexus IS models under the current floormat recall. Although the retrofit is a software upgrade, there are no current plans to install it elsewhere — even among models under the sticking accelerator pedal recall. However, those vehicles “are under study at this point,” Lee said.
How does Toyota’s brake override system work?
It’s an electronic system that engages when both accelerator and brake pedals are depressed, then the system cuts engine power: “When the vehicle is moving and both the gas and brake pedal are pushed at the same time, this software forces the vehicle to respond to the brake only,” Toyota explains in its recall FAQ. Lee said it will work under all conditions — not just in extreme situations — so those who drive with a left foot on the brake pedal will have to learn not to do that.
How widespread are brake override systems?
They’re widespread but not universal. According to the Wall Street Journal and the New York Times, brake override systems — called “smart pedals” within the auto industry — are employed by Chrysler, BMW, Mercedes-Benz, Volkswagen/Audi and Nissan, although not all of those automakers’ cars have them. Hyundai is reportedly installing smart pedals across its entire lineup this month, and Ford plans to roll it out across its lineup, as well. General Motors installs it on certain models, too.
Just don’t let that “fourteen year old” get caught reverse engineering it. It could be devastating to YOUR pocketbook since he is a minor!
Some won’t like my simple solution to this problem—fix the basic design flaw of an electronic accelerator pedal–use a standard, proven, aircraft cable type, mechanically-connected throttle cable! Pitch the “drive-by-wire” b.s. electronic rheostat nonsense! KISS—Keep It Simple-Smart! The Prius should be renamed the “PRY-US”, as in, “they’ll have to PRY US out of it after it crashes!” I have a 2008 Toyota HILUX SRV 3.0-liter 4-cyl. (yes, it’s a big 3-liter, variable-vane-turbocharged, aftercooled FOUR-Banger DIESEL!) 4×4, four door “double cab” turbodiesel pickup. This true truck gets an awesome 35+ MPG on the highway at road speed! Lotsa torque and power(170+ horsepower). It ‘lugs back’ to nearly 1200 rpm before downshifting on grades, and keeps right on climbing steadily, even in overdrive. I got mine in Central America, and it resides in Arizona now, drawing looks and attention everywhere it goes. The Hilux looks so much better than the same class newer Tacoma or the over-rated Tundra, (and it comes with ALL the U.S.-mandated D.O.T safety equipment, too!); the factory hood scoop on the HILUX SRV is fully FUNCTIONAL, not FAKE! Why these awesome, clean-burning, ultra-efficient diesel HILUX trucks are not sold in the U.S. is because the “gas pig” V8s would never sell, with these smooth, quiet, very rugged turbodiesel HILUX trucks offered for sale as an available vehicle alternative! The rest of the world can buy Toyota Hilux turbodiesel trucks…and the U.S. gets STUCK with T-100s, “gas job” Tacomas and Sequoias! The Toyota Land Cruiser “PRADO” is the full luxury, 3.0-liter 4-cyl. turbodiesel-powered equivalent model and brother to the gasoline-only U.S. LEXUS(FYI, still a TOYOTA vehicle, just a LOT more expen$ive) and Toyota Sequoia SUV models! Now you know! Once you see and drive a newer model (2007-up) turbodiesel Hilux, you’ll want one for yourself! ;-)
So, I wonder… Who exactly would know if I yanked an ECU from a vehicle and tinkered with it? I look at it this way: If Toyota or any other (explative) car manufacturer leaves “their” stuff in the car I just bought, then I say, finders-keepers. Nuff on that.
When I was at Edwards AFB, I had a lot of friends that worked at NASA, Ames Dryden. They are always testing cool stuff! Anyhoo, They were putting mods on an F-18 for some sort of test and my friend told me that even if all the electronic crap goes kablooey, there are certain critical control surfaces that have a true mechanical connection to the pilot. He muttered something like “Its called, mech-mech, off-off… I don’t know for sure, but the point being, even in a car, there are certain functions that deserve redundancy -and not a redundant backup that is prone to the very same failures as the primary system. i.e. an electronic drive by wire system that is backed up by another electronic system. Seems like common sense, but someone a lot wiser than me once said of common sense :The name “common sense” is deceiving… It would be correct only if the sense was indeed common.” Looks like Toyota is helping to make that point.
…Redundant backup…Is that redundant? hehe.
On the i-net some time ago was a revealing little story about an aircraft…a brand spanking new, zero-hour bird that was being delivered in Toulouse, France’s AirBus Industries factory, to an Arab airline. The flight crew accepting the aircraft for delivery did not follow the flight preparation and takeoff configuration settings instructions (hhmmm),and they TOTALLED this brand new AirBus by making several serious operational mistakes, without ever leaving the ground! The computers aboard the planes today control so may things…but you cannot always design for sheer stupidity. The AirBus was destroyed when it slammed into a large jet blast barrier at the factory, after the disabled onboard computer released the brakes, which had been holding the jet back due to improper/incorrect flap settings, with the four jet engine throttles wide open at full takeoff (“firewall”) power! The crew yanked the fuse that went to an onboard alarm which had sounded to notify them of the incorrect takeoff flap settings, etc! The photos shown say it all…the ruined AirBus jet’s forward fuselage broken up from the powerful impact. Betcha some flight crew folks don’t have rumps anymore, if they even lived. Tsk, tsk, tsk!! Toyota can easily go back to a throttle cable attached on the engine end to a TPS sensor quadrant mounted on the intake, just like they, and most others, have long done since the advent of modern integrated ECM engine maneagement/control systems. Cheap, easy and a far, far SUPERIOR “fix”! Let’s force them to design long-lost simplicity and rock-solid reliability into these new vehicles. Screw all the hyper-complicated, interdependant b.s. that makes these new cars such a major expense and headache to service and understand. Just my view!
Today I discuss with a friend (both of us in EE) about the “friction parts” of the CTS pedal.
The grooves and the shoes are made of “plastics” which is a very good insulator. If one piece of plastic is rubbed against another plastic, a very high static voltage will be generated ( concept of a well known high voltage generator).
This static voltage could be the order of 10000V and it may migrate to the pedal input signal. As a consequence, the input of the ECU will see a “high voltage glitch” and WOT may occur (or the ECU goes “death and down” temporarily or permanently).
To prevent this HV generation, the material of the grooves and/or the shoes should be conductive material (conductive plastic ?) and the postion (hall-effect) sensors be electrostatic shielded.
The whole debate going on here about too-clever-by-half drive -by-magic automotive gear has been raging for some 10-15 years in the commercial aviation industry where the two contenders are:
= AirBus, the control of whose planes has been largely the design creation of French software engineers who are exceedingly clever and who, in many ways, design the control logic with the attitude that they know best (and better than the pilot). All in all, their work has been impressive, but, as always, no one can think of everything, and there have been many cases of pilots being the exasperated to panicked captives of a design logic that forget something. Like the thrust reversers (having them deploy in midair can be fatal) that couldn’t be used until there’s weight on the landing gear….but when you land hot in a rainstorm, the brakes don’t work (hydroplaning), the plane won’t slow down, not enough weight ever shows up on the LG so the thrust reversers never were deployable and the plane ran off the end of the runway with the pilots cursing all the way. Or the case with a hideously bad down-draft, but the control logic wouldn’t allow the pilot to pull out enough because to do so would bend the wings, never mind that the alternative was a crash. Or Air France 447, whose control logic went insane when the pitot tubes froze up and told the central computer that there was no air speed whatsoever.
= Boeing does it differently. Their design tells the pilot when it think things are wrong or very bad, but allows the pilots to override.
Guess which plane I’d rather fly in?
@ SD
Your Airbus generalisations do not fit these two Boeing examples;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AeroPeru_Flight_603
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birgenair_Flight_301
Plus a Boeing 777 that dived wildly off the West Australian coast en route to Singapore some years ago.
… I dunno, a king air?
…maybe a Jenny? how about a gulfstream?…