By on June 23, 2017

2018 Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 1LE, Image: GM

Another month, another fresh batch of Burgerkingring-related stupidity. This time it’s the General Motors PR machine and its ever-reliable Southern California appendix stirring the hype for the new Camaro ZL1 1LE, which obtained a seven-minutes-and-change time when driven by an engineer around the course.

Nine times out of 10 I ignore this stuff entirely, but insofar as I was at the Ring just two weeks before the Camaro crew got there I thought this would be a good time to remind everybody out there why these times are completely and utterly meaningless.

Let’s start with the core, unspoken assumptions of publishing Ring times:

1) The Nurburgring is the world’s greatest racetrack;

2) Times set on the Nurburgring translate, in some degree, to a vehicle’s likely prowess on fast roads as well as on other racetracks.

In my opinion, the first assumption is almost exclusively the province of people without a racing license. The Ring is hugely challenging, it is highly memory-intensive, and it is remarkably dangerous. Yet the same is also true of BASE jumping with a blindfold on. As a race track, the Ring is mostly a follow-the-leader affair. There’s only one line through most of the fast sections. I don’t claim to have mastered the track but it’s plain to see that in cars of equal capability you’d have maybe ten opportunities to pass at most — this, in a track about five times as long as Mid-Ohio or Laguna Seca.

Very few experienced racers regard the Ring as anything other than an exercise in memory. If you can remember all of your entry and exit marks, you’ve accomplished ninety percent of the battle, because much of the track is simply a matter of knowing where you can keep the throttle pinned. From there, it’s a dyno test. Yes, there are fast turns. I was driving a relatively low-powered car at the Ring (you can always look at my Instagram if you want the details) and I was often doing 120 mph or more with some angle in the steering wheel. But in general, the Ring is a very pretty, very charming combination of memory test (for you) and dyno test (for the car).

As to the second assumption, the Ring is more like a German road than like any racetrack. It’s narrow and smooth with some major bumps that are scattered seemingly at random around the place. There are no potholes but there are also no turns like the Carousel at Nelson Ledges where you have to multiple-apex an asphalt corner. (The two Carousels at the Ring, of course, are banked, concrete lined, zero-apex affairs.) I’ve driven nearly 80 road courses across the planet and the Ring is like none of them. It’s also not like any American back road out there. So a car tuned at the Ring to excel at the Ring will be best suited for… the Ring.

It is rare for a Ring test result to not correspond approximately to the quarter-mile trap speed and lateral-g measurement of the car in question. The only exceptions to that are aero-related exceptions, which is why the Viper ACR does so well and why we keep seeing wings sprouting on production cars. Most wings are absolutely useless at the 80-mph maximum street-car corner speeds of most racetracks. At 150 mph, however, they allow you to keep your foot down for a little longer between Kilometers 11 and 13 of the Ring. Woo-hah!

So if Ring times don’t mean much for the overall excellence of a production car, what’s the point in setting a time? Well, there is no point — except for marketing. Which leads to my next complaint about the times: virtually all of them are set by ringer cars. This goes double, triple, and quadruple for forced-induction cars. Given the ease with which some mook in a California strip mall can liberate an extra 200 hp from a supercharged or turbocharged V-8, do you think that the manufacturers absolutely limit themselves to stock boost, 91 octane, California emissions trim?

Even if you assume the manufacturer operates with absolute ethical perfection in the matter of tuning the car, what’s to stop them from dyno-testing the next five thousand cars to come off the line and picking the strongest one? Absolutely nothing, obviously.

Periodically, you will have a situation where somebody takes a couple of nominally stock cars from dealership inventory to the Ring, as was the case with the previous-generation Viper ACR attempt. But if you think that the talent and knowledge amassed around those cars didn’t result in them being set up to a degree of excellence you’ll never attain as a casual ACR owner who likes to go to Sonoma four times a year, you’re still kidding yourself.

And, of course, the temptations to game the system are almost too strong for anybody to withstand. Every time Chevrolet sets a record in the Camaro or Corvette, the press obligingly prints lists of cars that are “slower” than the Camaro or Corvette. Yet I rarely see these disparities in the real world of experienced drivers at track days. Supposedly this Camaro is faster than a Ferrari Enzo around the Ring. Would you be willing to bet your home (for Gen Xers) or your retirement (for Boomers) or your iPhone (for Millennials) on it being true at Laguna Seca, with free choice of tires and plenty of setup time for both parties?

I’m certain that the ZL1 1LE is a very fast car. It has all the numbers in its favor and it was developed by some of the best and most committed performance engineers in the world. But this ‘Ring-record stuff is nothing but dust in the wind, so to speak. Don’t buy a car based on its Ring time, or on what it does in the hands of a “pro driver” who can be affected by everything from the weather to a headache to his list of potential sponsors for next year’s IMSA season. All of these things are eminently malleable. Focus on the best available objective numbers, the most trustworthy subjective impressions you can scrounge from the media, and your own impressions. Then make your choice and live with it. That’s all that matters. As for me? Well, first I see the Ring (time), then I sigh…

[Image: General Motors]

Get the latest TTAC e-Newsletter!

Recommended

74 Comments on “The Camaro’s Nurburgring Record Don’t Mean a Thing If It Ain’t Got That… Actually, It Don’t Mean a Thing, Period...”


  • avatar
    PrincipalDan

    Yeah I’ve stopped paying attention.

    I assume that Nurburgring record attempts are manufacturers trying to get teenage boys to take down whatever car poster is on their wall and swap it with whichever car is the new record holder.

    ‘Ring times have as much relevance to my life as a list of World Cup soccer championship teams.

    • 0 avatar
      raph

      Not just teenage boys, the bench racing crowd in general. Go take a trip over to say GMInsideNews or Camaro5 or Camaro6 and read the litany of high fives or ford/Ferrari/Porsche “whatcha’got!!!!!!” posts.

      Hell I’ll bet real money I could even find a post “Its funny Ford never posted a Ford GT ring time because the ZL1 1LE is faster than Ford’s crappy half million dollar supercar”.

      But… it serves its purpose it whips up the fanbois, the faithful and brand-x guys on the fence. They go down to GM looking to get into a ZL1 1LE with a 30k rebate on the hood and negative interest financing and instead roll out in as nice T4 6th gen instead talking about how they could have afforded a ZL1 1LE but wanted to save the planet, can’t go faster than the speed limit anyways and look just as cool instead.

  • avatar
    BaxterGill

    This all makes sense to me- It seems like a few writers are getting “Woke” about Nurburgring lap times.

    So, for those of us that are trying to armchair quarterback from home, what IS a decent measurement?
    Over at Jalopnik, they’ve decided that 0-60 is irrelevant (otherwise, how can you pump out fistfuls of articles about how a 944 is a better car than a 718 Cayman?).

    What I’ve been using, is Car and Driver’s lightning lap for baseline car numbers. Is there something better?

    • 0 avatar
      JimZ

      please ban this commenter for using “woke.”

      ;)

    • 0 avatar
      ajla

      “Is there something better?”

      Sexual contacts per dollar.

    • 0 avatar
      raph

      You can certainly take that in aggregate but in the end does it really matter?

      Pick your poison!

      Most street cars are plenty capable I’ve gone just as fast in my bumbling 09 GT500 down my favorite curvy road as I have my 17 GT350 (albeit with much better composure – there is simply too many things that could go wrong and either end up causing me to kill another person or simply squashing myself to drive like you would on a track) and if you sporadically track a car your probably never going to get to a level in driving ability where the car is going to become a major hindrance.

      So enjoy the various comparo runs at the ‘ring and VIR and whatever and go get the car that makes you happy.

    • 0 avatar
      Grahambo

      My 944 is, by far, the slowest car in my current fleet. And that was also the case with my prior fleet. And the fleet before that. Yet it remains my favorite car of all time. Could be some sentimentality that factors in, but, for over 25 years, I have been smitten with the way it goes down the road – especially given (but not only because of) the low cost of entry. It just feels right. Haven’t driven the 718, but I don’t think it’s possible that people who have paid, for example, $150K for a new 911 Turbo are having THAT much more fun – on the street, at least. Just drove my buddy’s new Camaro SS – while not the 1LE, it murders the 944 in every performance metric, no question. And it was subjectively very fun to drive. But I’m still good with the 944. Which I think was the point of the Jalopnik article.

  • avatar
    tylanner

    I take comfort in the fact that the time around a particularly demanding track may factor into the design and development of automobiles…and applaud the companies which they take on this challenge with vigor.

    While these exhibitions fall woefully short of Motorsport, they are far more than fluff.

  • avatar
    JimZ

    I don’t let mooks touch my cars.

  • avatar
    FormerFF

    Lap times are only important if you’re going racing, and then they’re only valid for comparison with cars of the same class. Drive what feels good to you.

  • avatar
    Stumpaster

    Oh-oh, anyone got the Ring times for Subaru Forester 2.5 stick shift? I am now feeling insecure about my lease.

    • 0 avatar
      joeaverage

      Someone posted a video to YouTube of a 1st Gen CRV being barrel rolled on the ‘Ring. Hope nobody got hurt. I still love our 1st gen but a race car it is not.

      Not quite a Subbie but maybe if you squint enough you could imagine it was a Subbie?

    • 0 avatar
      Zarf

      Last month at Mid-Ohio there was a Forester at the track day. It was kind of fun to watch it going around the track.

  • avatar
    smallblock

    The right answer is for the potential buyer to choose metrics and evaluations that most closely resemble their own expected usage. Manufacturers should also do likewise.

  • avatar
    ajla

    GM needs the Camaro’s performance to be accepted as legit by the Mr.Euro types for when they turn the Corvette into the $150K Fiero SS.

  • avatar
    Arthur Dailey

    To paraphrase James May, ‘he would never purchase a vehicle that was marketed based on its performance on the ‘Ring because making it ‘Ring ready, meant making it nearly impossible to live with as a daily driver’.

    Other than that, did JB get to meet Sabine Schmitz? If not, why not?

  • avatar
    bikegoesbaa

    Seems like it’s best to just not worry about whether your car is “faster” than any other car. Then you can safely ignore all of this stuff.

    I’m not going to be any less happy with a car I enjoyed yesterday because somebody somewhere made one that is slightly quicker around a particular track.

  • avatar
    Flipper35

    Some of those published lap times are composites of multiple laps taking the best times of each section from different laps and stitching it all together in a single “lap time” that is indicative of what the car is capable of should it run a near perfect lap.

  • avatar
    sportyaccordy

    In the end, we lose. It’s either a slow “feels” car like the Miata, or one of these Ring tuned aero beasts that are useless on the street and too expensive for anyone who doesn’t have a Ferrari to take to the track. We need cars in the middle…. something like the BRZ that won’t get walked by an Accord 4 banger from a stop light.

    On the flip side, mainstream cars are so good, I suppose they have filled that gap. Is a BRZ with the 250HP it needs really going make up the loss of practicality with dynamics over something like a Focus ST? I had a 350Z and moved to a Civic which I did some suspension mods on. If the Civic had more power (and an LSD) it would easily be more fun than the Z on the street, IMO anyway. It’s not the 60s…. mainstream cars are dynamically solid just as a means to be competitive.

    • 0 avatar
      rentonben

      Indeed we’re living in a golden age of mainstream care – a V6 Accord, V6 Camry, V6 Impala re all pretty awesome depending on how you take your poison.

      Heck.. a Chevy SS is a legitimate choice just for solid, roomy, and comfortable car. You could completely ignore the fact that the thing can rip.

      • 0 avatar
        sportyaccordy

        With really mild maintenance mods (tires, chompier brake pads + fluid, upgraded shocks) any mainstreamer with an inkling of dynamic prowess can flat out thrill. It really doesn’t take a lot these days.

  • avatar
    operagost

    If there’s really only one line through the course, doesn’t that imply consistency? I mean, otherwise we would be measuring the skill of the driver, and that’s NOT what we want. The driver just needs to have “good memory”, as you state.

  • avatar
    rentonben

    >>Supposedly this Camaro is faster than a Ferrari Enzo around the Ring. Would you be willing to bet [..] on it being true at Laguna Seca,

    I’d take that bet- my friend’s Fararri spends way too much time in the shop for me to think that going once around is a given.

  • avatar
    dukeisduke

    I’d normally agree, but seeing how this lap time was achieved driven by an engineer, I’d like to see what kind of time someone like Sabine Schmitz could do. Also of course because I like looking at Sabine Schmitz.

    • 0 avatar
      Jack Baruth

      Sabine is older than I am, even.

      For better or worse, all the GM times seem to be set by somebody who is a direct and confidentiality-bound GM employee.

    • 0 avatar
      Steve65

      Just because the driver is not a famous racer is not a reason to suppose the driver lacks the skills to set a legitimately representative lap time. There are far more qualified drivers than there are professional seats to fill.

  • avatar
    mikein541

    Whether or not the times mean anything, they’re not relevant.
    You can’t drive the car that way on any real road. So why buy it?
    Personally, I want a car that will do 120mph, brake quickly and reliably,
    and handle well in the twisties. An Accord V6 will do all this.

    • 0 avatar
      stuki

      …as long as you don’t require it too brake quickly, reliably AND REPEATEDLY…. :)

      That’s where most heavier, more powerful, grippy tired mainstream cars fail, if you try tracking them. As opposed to light, weak ones; like the Miata and 86. And track intended, powerful, and inevitably much pricier ones, like this Camaro.

      • 0 avatar
        Steve65

        If you’re getting brake fade in street driving with a modern disc-brake car, you’re driving too fast.

        • 0 avatar
          stuki

          You don’t have to go very fast at all, as long as the road is a twisty and steep downhill any longer than Lombard Street in SF. My daily commute at one point included Tuna Canyon (for those in SoCal), and that thing is hell on brakes. Whether in cars, on motorbikes or on bicycles. Heck, on a bicycle with rim brakes, it’s easier on the brakes the faster you go; as more energy is absorbed by air resistance, rather than your rim and pads.

  • avatar
    EAF

    Jack – I don’t get this “memory” argument. Every track, outside of a quarter mile, relies on some sort of memorization! Wether it is a drift track, makeshift auto-cross, rally stage, etc! This learning curve is usually why times get so much better on a same day second attempt, even moreso that setup changes, no? Maybe I am too stoopid to understand the argument, I dunno.

    Also, if you’re going to be cynical of GM then the same must hold true for Porsche, Lambo, Ferrari & every other tire & car manufacturer that tests on the Ring. They are all on equal footing because they all cheat! Most buyers will never race on the Ring nor have the skill to duplicate the time but what are you going to sell a Viper on? Cargo space? A CTR? Beauty? Lol

    Maybe there should be an independent 3rd party governing body overlooking these manufacturer claims?!?

    • 0 avatar
      mwgillespie

      Because the Nordschleife is between 12 and 15 miles long depending on what you’re counting, and it has “73, 105, 154 or 170” corners, again, depending on who’s counting?

      That last set of numbers is from this site (http://www.greenhellguides.com/2014/08/24/many-curves-nurburgring-nordschleife/).

      That’s a lot of memorization, I don’t care who you are…

      • 0 avatar
        EAF

        I have several friends who prepared by practicing on some PS4 game – I don’t recall which one. Apparently, the track layout is exactly the same and aids with aforementioned “memorization.”

        I guess I concede your point & Jacks – I was looking at it from a completely different perspective.

    • 0 avatar
      Steve65

      It’s about knowing which blind corners can be entered at well above “sight and reaction time” speeds. Much of the ring is driven on faith; assuming there’s no unseen obstruction around the next bend.

  • avatar
    pmirp1

    This article sounds like sour grapes where Jack had to drive a car that is non-existent on American roads and no one cares about its review (sorry Jack), compared to cars that can be had in any town(and we love to read about). Yes there is a complete and utter sense of “Porsche/Euro crap” is better with Jack(irrespective of him talking about purchasing American made), and now the theme is put down GM compared to irrelevant Lotus.

    There is no doubt that using the ring, has improved GM vehicle dynamics. While I don’t pay much attention to record times, the fact GM continues to test vehicle dynamics at the ring is extremely important to car enthusiasts and I am sure a major reason why their cars handle so good nowadays. Prime example: Corvette Grand Sport.

    As for ZL-1, the Camaro is not my cup of tea. Poor design/limited sight lines, but it handles extremely well. Either it or Corvette can run rings around that little irrelevant Lotus Jack drove (with a Camry engine) that no one cares about in America.

    • 0 avatar
      Jack Baruth

      You’ve cleverly unmasked me as a Porsche shill.

      And I would have gotten away with it, too, if it wasn’t for those stupid kids!

      • 0 avatar
        pmirp1

        Jack, I realize that, but that doesn’t mean you should take cheap shots at GM performance cars or owners as you have recently. Particularly your taking shots at Corvette owners, you know what I am talking about. This C7 owner thought this post was continuing that theme, except this time against another GM performance car.

        I challenge you to drive the new Corvette C7 (in any iteration) and compare to your air cooled VW, then come back and talk. And please don’t tell me about your wife’s C5. You should go to smoking tire and watch Matt Farah’s drive of the C7, and then at the end his commentary about how sad he is that he had to go to that red thing and drive it, that now you own.

    • 0 avatar

      ” but it handles extremely well. ”

      I’m sure that it’s fun to drive but have you personally driven one?

      “compared to irrelevant Lotus”

      How do you know that Lotus hasn’t been working on the Camaro for GM? Lotus Engineering does work for many large automakers. Heck, the original ZR1 Corvette had a Lotus designed engine along with a suspension tweaked by Lotus.

      You think that fairly large facility on north Main in Ann Arbor just engineers Lotus’ road cars?

      ” the fact GM continues to test vehicle dynamics at the ring is extremely important to car enthusiasts and I am sure a major reason why their cars handle so good nowadays.”

      The Ring efforts are smart marketing, but just how much is GM testing vehicle dynamics at the Ring? It seems to me that a “record” attempt has far more to do with PR than with instrumented testing, else GM would be touting G-force numbers and the like.

      I don’t think I’m going out on a limb to say that “six nines” of the development work on the Camaro ZL1 took place on the skid pad and high speed sections of GM’s Milford Proving Grounds.

      • 0 avatar
        pmirp1

        Ronnie, Lotus also helped Isuzu with their Impulse entry in America. I remember the little badges that said handling by Lotus. So what? Did that do a thing for Isuzu? Lotus helped Genesis more recently with G80, and that thing weighs 4500+ and drives like a drunk whale, what does that say about Lotus? Lotus is a shadow of what it was. A rent for hire company.

        All to say don’t compare GM of 80s and 90s (that ZR1 you are referencing is a C4). GM is a different company now with performance vehicles that compete with the best of the world.

        I have never driven the new ZL-1. I only saw a lime green one at the dealer recently. I have driven Camaro SS, and it handles great. As I said it is not me, as a 55 year old man, I can’t go for the interior materials and sight-lines, I still am not sure what they were thinking when they re-platformed it on Alpha platform. I do own a Z-51 C7 Admiral Blue Sting Ray (one of few Admiral blues made in 2016). It is the best handling vehicle I have ever owned, and I am sure the Alpha platform and mag suspension for ZL-1 are continuation of that pattern established by C7.

        And finally, yes of-course GM is an American car company, so it is safe to assume they test their performance vehicles more in America than in Europe. But the ring testing is not just for show. The camouflage vehicles and test without any alerting of news media for top speeds continues constantly, and is published/shared in many magazines and on sites. There is no doubt the ring testing of CTS V (various generations), Corvette and Camaro have helped the handling of GM vehicles.

        • 0 avatar
          joeaverage

          I suspect the ring might be confirmation laps. They have done the testings and adjustments on home tracks and now they are proving it and running it in front of influential enthusiasts with cameras, etc.

          I have an crossover SUV that was run hard on the ‘Ring. For what point I don’t know. It drives and rides nice though.

          How many factory cars use the ‘ring loaded with instruments I wonder. In the pictures I’ve seen of my brand of crossover I saw no instruments, just the zebra wrap paint job.

  • avatar
    alluster

    GM continues it’s tradition of making boneheaded decisions. Stop making 48 different iterations of the Camaro, throw a 75 KWH battery in the FNR-X, price it under $40K before the tax credit and watch Tesla go bankrupt in 12 months.

    • 0 avatar
      raph

      You must be talking about the imminent release of the Model 3 and the thrashing Tesla will get both from media and unhappy owners after a few months in the car.

    • 0 avatar
      joeaverage

      I really like the FNR-X but that just guarantees that GM won’t make it. Its been like this for my entire life. GM can draw them but they won’t build them.

      GM has had some incredible concept vehicles over the years. I understand some of it is unrealistic but even watered down a little they could still be impressive.

      Or they’ll draw up something like the FNR-X but build something like the 2015 Chevy Equinox and tell us it is the same thing.

  • avatar
    sirwired

    Different Cars Are Good at Different Things, and Marketing Departments Like Talking About Things a Car is Good At.

    News at 11.

  • avatar
    Flipper35

    Even a large track like Road America requires memorizing far less track than the ring.

    Also, the record the Viper ACR set a few years ago was done by Viper enthusiasts, not Chrysler Corporation, just to prove it could be done.

  • avatar
    LazyJK

    Having done close to a 100 laps round the Ring now (tourist drives and one GLP regularity event) I agree that a lot of hype vanishes once you are actually there. Do not get me wrong, it should be on your bucket list but don’t buy too much into things written by juvenile keyboard masturbators who spend much more time on the internet than behind the wheel.

  • avatar
    alexndr333

    A coincidence that Jack’s rant against Nurburbring times runs just after the Camaro takes a turn? Not likely. The Nurburgring – or any track for that matter – provides a common measure for different cars. The fact that the Nurburgring itself provides a genuine challenge AND has the most name recognition makes it the common measure everyone likes to try. But Mr. Baruth saves his vitriol not when Porsche or Mercedes (or Toyota?) runs the course, but only when GM does. Jack has found another creative way to bash the General.

  • avatar
    Big Al From 'Murica

    Come on now, some of the best car and truck ads are born of trumpeting extreme capabilities that nobody ever uses…unless there was a bunch of F150s back in the 80s towing Chevy’s with Dodges in the beds up random rock piles. Now I’m off to help my buddy dump a bunch of rocks into his bed from 10 feet in the air then we are going to crank up Dennis leary!

  • avatar
    Secret Hi5

    And what would be the reaction had the ZL1 “sucked” on the ‘Ring?

  • avatar
    thegamper

    My experience with the ring is Gran Turismo on Play Station so I can very easily recognize the importance of memory for this course, the driver’s knowledge of what comes next is the primary factor in a fast time. Still, it “a” metric. Just like 0-60 and 1/4 mile times don’t always tell the whole story.

    The truth is, regardless of how you feel about all of these so called objective metrics of a car’s racing prowess, none of it has any meaning to the 99% of us that will never push a car anywhere near its limits. So, the vast majority of people buying these super cars/hyper cars will have only bragging rights based on paper metrics….so…there’s that.

    And if you/me/us are really honest, the ring time is about as valuable as any review or fluff piece posted on the interwebs. Sort of like all the web and print publications spouting off about how the Honda Odyssey is the “driver’s” minivan. You just lost my attention….forever.

  • avatar
    Fred

    Nurburgring times are very important. Why else would GM allow them to spend the money and time to do it?

  • avatar

    This is why I only buy cars based on their SCCA Solo Nationals results.

  • avatar
    srh

    Sorry this article doesn’t make sense.

    It would be stupid to look at a ‘ring time for a minivan. But for a track focused car, it makes all the sense in the world. Sure it’s a ringer. Sure it’s got the best tires for this purpose. Sure, every track is an exercise in memory.

    And that’s the point. It’s a track car. As JB knows, people who track their cars frequently obsess over getting the best tires. They ensure their car is in prime condition before each event. They memorize the entry and exit points.

    And yes, the driver is probably a ringer too, which few of us are. But every published ‘ring time from a manufacturer is driven by a ringer. So the times are relatively comparable.

    Now of course my little local track (Portland International Raceway) is strictly a 2D affair that bears little resemblance to the Nurburgring. And I’m nowhere near the driver that piloted this Camaro. But that doesn’t make a reasonable comparo any less relevant.

    BTW, I would be interested to see the results of a car selected from the line for max power compared to the average car from that same line. I bet the performance difference on the track would be very small.

  • avatar
    UnavailableZL1

    The ‘ring means a lot to Europe and the automotive world, just not to the idiot that wrote this article.

  • avatar
    jsncjn

    This article is ridiculous and faulty in its reasoning. Track times mean something for this very reason: it shows the performance capabilities of the car. If you’re buying a car like this you want to know how it stacks up to other cars, and I think it’s amazing that this car, which can be had by middle class America, is playing with cars costing 2 or 3 times as much.

    I suspect either the author is supremely butt-hurt for some reason, or he is just trolling for clicks.

  • avatar
    cimarron typeR

    “Would you be willing to bet your home (for Gen Xers) or your retirement (for Boomers) or your iPhone (for Millennials) on it being true at Laguna Seca, with free choice of tires and plenty of setup time for both parties?”
    Based on this entertaining sentenance alone Jack gets my click/$


Back to TopLeave a Reply

You must be logged in to post a comment.

Recent Comments

  • TTCat: What a laughable little foray into virtue signalling – now back to your regularly scheduled...
  • dukeisduke: I wonder if that’s on YouTube now? I only caught the last episode.
  • dukeisduke: Black DashMat to the rescue? http://www.carcoverusa.com/Das hmat-Dashboard-Covers.html?...
  • qwer38456: I second this motion.
  • zip89123: The only reason for a 3rd row in a CR-V is to jack up the price. VW is adding it to the FWD Tiguan. My only...

New Car Research

Get a Free Dealer Quote

Staff