By on May 15, 2013

About to get burned? (tvacres.com)

Holden writes:

i’m looking into purchasing a 72 charger, its almost completely fixed up and I’ve been thinking about what things to have put in the car to make it more like a modern car and what i want to know is, is it possible to put a an after market remote starter/ locker? unlocker in the car?
thanks

Sajeev answers:

If the Charger in question has power locks, any competent stereo shop can install a remote start-door opener alarm system.  If power locks aren’t factory installed, get a street rod kit and make it work. While wiring a remote start in a manual transmission vehicle isn’t the brightest idea, it is doable.

So this was an easy answer so an easy question.  Except not.  When considering the tough follow up comments your letter forces me to consider:

1. Looking to buy an “almost completely fixed up” vehicle from 1972 is a vague enough statement that it might as well be a Pandora’s box of problems just waiting to be opened.

2. Classic cars are awesome, but anything and everything will go wrong.  When you start modifying one, especially the electrics, your chances for a rolling clusterfuck just multiplies.

3. I hope you have a significant budget set aside for any and all fixes not addressed by the previous owner.

4. Start sourcing spare parts for every future restoration/repair/modification project on this car. I have several saved searches on eBay that I monitor during my lunch breaks at work.  Nothing reminds you of the stupidity of owning a classic car (never-driven museum pieces aside) than looking for the parts to make a project happen. Welcome to my world.

5. If you aren’t very handy with cars, make sure you have friends that can save your bacon when you burn it.

So consider this your burn notice, so to speak.**

**Please don’t sue me, Burn Notice TV show people!

 

Send your queries to sajeev@thetruthaboutcars.com. Spare no details and ask for a speedy resolution if you’re in a hurry…but be realistic, and use your make/model specific forums instead of TTAC for more timely advice.

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60 Comments on “Piston Slap: Burn Noticed!...”


  • avatar
    thelaine

    Oh Lord Holden, I hope you are sitting down.

  • avatar
    AMC_CJ

    Why try to make it modern? There’s something special about sliding behind the wheel and going back in time. Regular stuff breaking is probably going to give you enough to do without trying to make it modern; unless you’re really going at it and are a professional (but I don’t get that from you’re letter).

    • 0 avatar
      fredtal

      Agree, half the fun of an old car is all that old time stuff, like actually having to put a key in the door to lock and unlock it. How quaint ;)

      • 0 avatar

        my 9 year old nephew loves to crank the windows up and down by hand, its the only car in the family with manual crank windows, I just tell him to not be stupid and try and open the door while the car is moving. (4 door sedan)

        I’ve added a few features to mine, like a headlight reminder buzzer (factory option), pulse wipers (factory option), under dash lights(optional), swapped the sweep speedo for the optional gauge package, but it still retains its manual locks and windows, fixed steering column, no cruise, and two barrel carb. It’s not much modified over box stock.

        • 0 avatar
          PrincipalDan

          Yup you guys are on the right track. I’d give it a full tuneup and an MSD ignition for more accurate and hotter spark, make sure the carb was set up for whatever your climate/altitude is but other than that… an old car should remind you that it is an old car. If you want that kind of stuff on a classic car, let me show you the 2013 Hemi Challenger over here…

  • avatar
    Jesse

    I would imagine that having a remote starter on a “carbed” car would be a challenge (no pun intended). Unless the conditions were completely ideal, you’d need to be in the car to adjust the choke and pump the gas to get it started.

    As far as other modern conveniences – I can only speak about vintage Volvos, but I know that in the p1800 world, a lot of us replace the ignition points with a breakerless system like Pertronix (improves idle and running conditions – provides more reliable spark). Some people have also added power steering.

    Instead of creature comforts, I’d focus on maybe retrofitting safety features if possible. For example, if you can upgrade the seatbelts from lap belts to 3-point belts (I’m not really sure what the Challenger has), I’d do that.

    • 0 avatar

      This. A fuel injected car normally just needs you to turn the key, and effectively, that’s all that a remote start system can do. It’s been awhile since I’ve driven a carbureted car, but normally you have to give them a little gas to start smoothly. In severe cold (which is when a remote starter benefits you the most) the startability of a carbureted car drops and you have to do even more trickery to encourage it to come to life. I don’t see a remote starting system to be all that practical in a vehicle such as this.

      Truthfully, I don’t see them as being all that useful on modern cars either. While it’s nice to go out to a fully warmed-up car, all that idling is wasting a lot of fuel and prematurely wearing your engine. 30 to 60 seconds of idling (depending on the temperature) and your engine is ready to be driven calmly. It’ll start pumping heat into your interior within a couple of minutes instead of needing several as it would at idle.

    • 0 avatar
      Scoutdude

      Some of the remote start systems are set up to “pump” the carb and set the auto choke with an optional solenoid/motor. Never installed one but I’ve seen the part numbers and programing instructions in some kits.

  • avatar
    danio3834

    A remote start on a carbureted vehicle? I hope it includes an actuator to pump the throttle for you. This car is going to be a steep learning curve for you, but it’s still be an awesome experience.

    The power door locks won’t be a problem as Sajeev said with the kits that are available.

    Now lets forget all that nonsense and get down to the nitty gritty. Big block or a small block car? Any special options? Tell us more about this thing.

    I’ve had quite a few old Mopars over the years and my dad still has his ’71 Superbee which is the first year of the body style of your car. Parts aren’t that difficult to source, but you’ll find there’s decidedly less reproduction stuff out there for the ’72 than the earlier cars.

    • 0 avatar
      PonchoIndian

      Beat me to it!
      The remote start will work fine, as long as you remember to go out and pump the gas once or twice to set the choke and get a little fuel squirted down the throat.

  • avatar
    PonchoIndian

    My humble suggestions (from experience with a 74 Firebird), Pertronix ignition as already mentioned, a exhaust with a nice mellow rumble (unless already equipped), a good tuneup and carb rebuild, maybe a dyno tune.

    A really nice but not cheap swap would be a modern overdrive transmission. That and some high quality (Bilstein) shocks will make it a worthy cruiser.

    Don’t skimp on tires either. Not all tires are made equal, and the BFG T/A’s you see on all the muscle cars at cruise nights are old tech only offering the advantage of easily available white letters.

    • 0 avatar
      Scoutdude

      Why in the world would you put a pertronix in a Firebird, or any other GM car for that matter. For less money you can go to your local parts store and get a reman distributor for a later electronic ign version of the same engine. Less time to install, lower cost, much stronger spark, much more durable, parts on the shelf at any store, won’t fry if the ign is left on w/o the engine running.

      • 0 avatar
        PonchoIndian

        Yeah, that probably would have been the better route. The Pertronix was only about $50.00 at the time, didn’t ever bother looking for and HEI setup.

        I was very much into trying to keep everything stock looking at the time also.

      • 0 avatar
        nrd515

        At one time the Mopar Performance LA engine distributor, with a good quality cap and rotor, was cheaper than the stock distributor alone. I think it was like $36 at one point. The stock one was like $10 more, and needed the cap and rotor on top of that. The igniton controller box was a very cheap item too, I had a bunch of them I bought at the local “pick your part” for like $7 each. The blue and orange boxes were better. I ended up with an MSD 6C and left a blue box on the firewall as a backup.

  • avatar
    mechimike

    I hate to be the crotchety curmudgeon here, but I have grave misgivings about this car’s future, given that the prospective buyer is more interested in adding a remote starter/ unlocker than any of the things that make a ’72 Charger a ’72 Charger.

    Don’t get me wrong, I’m not a purist. I’ve added my share of aftermarket radios (everything from under-dash 8 tracks to in-dash CDs)and in my younger days mistakenly thought Scotch Locks were an acceptable wiring splicing device. But I hope that younger generations will learn from my mistakes!

  • avatar

    I’ve seen some neat resto mods on old cars to bring them to the modern age but my concern is why would power locks/remote start be the first you’d look at? Everyone is different and has different needs but I can’t imagine this being the place to start. As mentioned, modern ignition would be first, followed by fuel injection (if electric start is down the road). These are things that add resale value to most customers. I wouldn’t buy a 72 charger if the owner told me it had remote locks and start, because of the odds that it was done poorly.

    • 0 avatar
      GoesLikeStink

      I would be less worried about starting, remote or not, than stopping. Disc brakes would be my first consideration. I think the 72 had a dual master cylinder (not like my 65 Dart) Also someone mentioned seatbelts. Get 3 point at least in the front. After that I agree electronic ignition. But you are going to have a hard time just making sure the lights and gauges work. Especially the fuel gauge on those Mopars.

  • avatar
    ClutchCarGo

    Unless this car is intended to be a daily driver (which would be an even greater folly), conveniences like power locks and remote start make little sense. If modern updates are to be considered, I would think that brake and suspension updates would come first, then interior updates to the stereo, seats, etc. would be next.

    • 0 avatar
      raph

      I don’t think Holden has those kinds of updates in mind as the Charger is “mostly” finished. It seems like Holden is after creature comforts of the affordable variety. Meaningful brake and suspension updates would be somewhat costly.

      A more cost effective solution to the brake and suspension department would be better tires if its possible, assuming the car isn’t fitted with decent rubber already.

      • 0 avatar
        danio3834

        I’m wondering what’s not included in the “mostly” part.

      • 0 avatar
        ClutchCarGo

        It’s a matter of personal preference, but remote start and power locks provide little in creature comfort for a car that is driven for leisure. Superior handling via updated brakes, suspension and tires would be the greater creature comfort, even if only modest updates.

  • avatar
    TR4

    Remote start is suitable only for vehicles with automatic transmission and fuel injection. It’s hazardous on a manual because you would have to leave it parked in neutral. And good luck starting any carburetor vehicle when cold without someone at the controls.

    Please don’t buy this vehicle, I feel sorry for it…

    • 0 avatar
      danio3834

      “Please don’t buy this vehicle, I feel sorry for it…”

      I kinda do too and I hope Holden at least has someone he can turn to for advice in the flesh. However I won’t discourage him from getting it as auto enthusiasm needs to be bred, and this will be a good learning experience for him.

      Hopefully not an exercise in frustration.

    • 0 avatar
      Wacko

      TR4 You sir are wrong about a remote start is only suitable for cars with an automatic.
      I only drive manuals, and all my cars had/have remote starters (I live in canada)

      Remote starters for a manual must be armed or activated ever time you exit the car. The remote starter only activates if I arm It, and to arm it I must use the parking brake before taking the key out. Once you close the doors it locks the doors then shuts off the engine. If I unlock the doors, the remote starter is disabled. No danger at all of leaving it in gear. The remote starter must be made for manuals. But If you get a remote starter for an auto and bypass the clutch sensor, then yes can be dangerous.

      You do have a point for the carbed cars

      Stick shift for Life!

      • 0 avatar
        TR4

        Good for you liking manuals! There are fewer of us every year…

        Perhaps “suitable” was the wrong word. Sure it’s possible to do it on a manual as you have. However you still have to park it in neutral and any way you look at this you are compromising safety to some degree. If the parking brake gets loose due to cooling or whatever the vehicle might roll. The standard recommendation for manual transmission vehicles is to park it in 1st or reverse AND apply the parking brake.

        GM offered remote start on automatic HHRs, but not manuals.

        • 0 avatar
          wumpus

          My father taught me to put the car in first and engage the parking brake when parking a car. Not so much that he ever mentioned it, just the fact that I found his car across the street (our driveway was pretty steep) a couple of times in the morning…

    • 0 avatar
      Scoutdude

      There are solenoids to pump the carb and set the choke available for some remote start systems so as long as the choke is properly set up it won’t be a problem provided you use a kit and accessories intended for a carbed car. As mentioned there are kits designed for MT vehicles that require a conscious effort to make them remote start so that the proper precautions are observed.

      • 0 avatar
        CobraJet

        I don’t think this would ever work on my 69 Mustang. It is an automatic, but a cold start takes several pumps of the pedal, depending upon how many days since last started. After that, some feathering of the pedal is needed to keep it running for the first couple of minutes. The Holley 4bbl combined with a big block engine make for a cold-natured beast.

  • avatar
    rpol35

    “Classic cars are awesome, but anything and everything will go wrong. When you start modifying one, especially the electrics, your chances for a rolling clusterf*** just multiplies.”

    From my old car experience, I couldn’t have said it better. You should leave it as it was in 1972 and mess with something else. These older cars never work out as daily drivers, they decompose very quickly with the rigors of everyday driving, that’s how they were originally designed.

    • 0 avatar
      redmondjp

      What are you talking about? These older cars were ALL used as daily drivers once. Yes, there is a lot more maintenance and you do have to stay on top of it in order to maintain reliability.

      I drove my 1971 LTD and 1969 Cadillac as daily drivers up through the 1990s, and maintained my now-wife’s 1975 Nova DD up through 2004.

      • 0 avatar
        danio3834

        redmond, people like you and I can still rock them as daily drivers without too much hurt, but the average person doesn’t want to be bothered changing seals, hoses and the odd things that die off with age.

        I drove a ’76 Charger daily through a good part of the 2000s, but I can’t say it was anywhere near as trouble free as a late model car that people have become accustomed to.

      • 0 avatar
        wumpus

        Cars were considered old after something like 3 years and ancient beaters after 5? Yea, thats how US cars were made. How do you think the Japanese got a foothold in the US? Datsuns rusted in roughly that time, but the numbers on the odometer were pretty irrelevant (and could go vastly higher than anything you would expect on a domestic).

        My family had a saying back then “we buy a new car every 10 years whether we need one or not”. Keeping such old cars has gotten more common, and our cars seem to stay longer than 10 years. Don’t kick me out for not having the proper turnover.

    • 0 avatar

      Guess my ’64 Falcon would disagree. Been taking it to work (almost) every day for 3.5 years now.

      • 0 avatar
        28-Cars-Later

        My co worker just “gave away” a garage kept mint ’62 blue Falcon coupe that had not run since the early 80s for $250. Evidently the new owner had a parts car as this one required some rare stuff I suppose in the interior and on the engine.

        • 0 avatar
          PrincipalDan

          If I remember the meme correctly, Valiants and Falcons are now exclusively driven by “hipsters” and prices for clean nice ones are climbing.

          • 0 avatar
            28-Cars-Later

            I asked him earlier after I saw your post, evidently the buyers were twin brothers who literally grew up on a farm in NC and heard about the car through a cousin who knew my co-worker’s family. He was unsure if the brothers were headed back to NC or if they were living in south pgh region.

  • avatar
    Felis Concolor

    Instead of trying to actuate the choke mechanism as part of the process, a modern EFI TB should be considered; you’ll still get the looks of the central carburetor with the main unit, while making it much easier to work with remote start systems.

    • 0 avatar

      This.

      Bolt-on TBIs are in the $1500-2k range, and seem like a very good idea.

      Probably the 2nd or 3rd 4-digit purchase that’ll go into my Falcon.

      • 0 avatar
        Scoutdude

        You don’t need to spend that much money to put EFI on your car.

        The cheapest way, if you are willing to go the JY route and can follow wiring diagrams is to use a GM TBI set up. The last time I checked people were getting enough for a complete system and maybe some spares for $200-$300 and they can also be found in that price range on E-bay. A few bucks for the right adapter to mount the TBI, an electronic ign distributor, and maybe a chip burner and you are out the door for under $500.

        Another way to go is with MegaSquirt and then on your Ford get an intake, distributor and engine harness from a HO 5.0 Depending on where you shop and how far you take it you can be injected for $750-$1000.

        Or you could just get a HO 5.0 and stick it in complete with it’s injection and still stay under $2000.

  • avatar
    mikey

    The 72, IMHO is the nicest looking,of all the” Coke bottle chargers”. It was also the first year of the tamed down muscle cars.

    My advice? Read all of the above comments. Agreed,if you want to modernize,go with suspension,and brakes. Bring lots of cash,and choose very carefully,who you let do it.

    If it was my car? I would do what I have to do,to keep it mechanically sound. I would do a lot of on line research.

    A 72 Charger, is by todays standards,a fairly simple,straight forward car. I would keep it that way. If I had a huge budget to spend? The sky is the limit,when it comes to modifications. I personally,would strive to bring it back to as close to original as I could get. That to can get very costly.

    Good luck!

  • avatar
    DC Bruce

    I have no idea why you would want a remote start. Having never had that feature on any car, I imagine it would only make sense if the car was kept outside in a cold climate and you wanted to drive away in a warm car. Under those circumstances, cranking the engine without someone manipulating the gas pedal is very unlike to get the car started. At least one push on the gas pedal before cranking would be required to set the automatic choke.

    I also agree that considering a 40-year old car as a daily driver is unrealistic.

    Before doing any of that stuff, I would replace the distributor cap, the distributor rotor and the sparkplug wires if they are not already new. The first modification I would do would be some sort of add-on electronic ignition, even if you kept the distributor.

    The next thing I would check and replace as necessary, would be the entire braking system, including brake lines, master and slave cylinder seals . . . not just the friction material (pads, or shoes).

    Then I would replace all vacuum lines (especially the one that feeds the power brake booster (I’m willing to bet this car has power brakes).

    Finally, I would see that the carburetor is rebuilt with new seals and that all rubber portions of the fuel line have recently been replaced, and I would consider replacing the engine-driven mechanical fuel pump.

    Engines of this area were not heavily de-smogged, so they should run well and start easily . . . unlike the ones of a few years later, which are terrible. I’m not sure that messing with an add-on throttle-body fuel injection system would be worth the expense and effort.

    The car probably has power steering, which if typical of other MoPar power steering units of that era I have driven, is grossly overboosted and devoid of any “feel.”

    Before I bought the car, I would want to know the status of every one of its basic systems — the failure of any one of which could be catastrophic — before thinking about add-ons like remote start.

    A car of this age is not transportation; it’s a project on which you are going to spend time and money. If that’s not your expectation, stay away and buy a newer car.

  • avatar
    PonchoIndian

    I’m not sure why everyone is saying that this car won’t be good everyday transportation.

    I say that if you live in a climate that allows it to not be driven in snow/salt, drive the damn thing as much as you want. You will probably get the same gas mileage as the cowboy next to you in the F150, Silverado, Tundra et al….and be alot more stylish doing it.

    Just because something is 40 years old doesn’t mean it will be less reliable than a 10 year old daily driver. Replace the basic consumables, and anything else that comes up.

    Rubber brake lines, fuel lines, hoses and belts are a given. The electronic ignition will make that aspect of it reliable. A good carb rebuild an tune will last many 10’s of thousands of miles. Everything else that could go wrong will be simpler and cheaper to fix than fixing your 10 year old Hyundai-Honda-Chevy.

    • 0 avatar
      GoesLikeStink

      I agree on this. Just dont expect it to feel modern. I drove my old Dart to work for a few years. Every time something broke it was about $20 in parts and free labor (mine)

    • 0 avatar
      Whuffo2

      You’ve never actually done it, have you? Those older cars need more maintenance more often than modern vehicles. I can guarantee you that if you had this car in perfect condition with an electronic ignition installed, you would NOT drive for “many 10’s of thousands of miles” before it needed a tune-up.

      Keeping one as a daily driver might be workable if you were willing to keep up on the repairs and maintenance – but finding replacement parts for 40 year old cars can be time consuming and you might not want to take the bus for a week or two while you track parts down to get it back on the road.

      • 0 avatar
        PonchoIndian

        I have done it.

        Whuffo,
        Oil and lube every 4K miles
        Spark plugs every 30K
        and that has been it, other than that it has been dead reliable.
        74 Firebird, was a daily driver for 3 years.
        Not quite sure what is so hard about that, unless you drive 20K miles a year this isn’t a huge amount of maintenance.
        Generally major thing don’t just break out of nowhere. These cars are simple and pretty robust.

        Most 40 year old American cars are easy to find parts for unless you have something exotic. NAPA, autozone, Hemmings, all great sources for parts very quickly.

      • 0 avatar
        Moparman426W

        Being the owner of 2 70’s mopars myself, I can tell you that pretty much all normal wear items such as starters, fuel pumps, brake parts, tuneup parts, you name it, are as close as my nearest Auto Zone.
        They are very easy to work on, and reliable. Even though I don’t use them as daily drivers I could if I wanted to. I put about 1,000 miles on each every summer, one show that I attend in Columbus every year is about a 100 mile drive. I could drive either car across the country if I wanted to.
        Spark plugs are good for 30k miles, good plug wires are good for 50k, so my wires should last the rest of my life. Old cars are very easy to keep running with a bit of common sense, but they aren’t idiot proof like newer cars, they do require a bit of tinkering on occasion to keep them running properly.

  • avatar
    DenverMike

    You may consider aftermarket fuel injection. Here’s a kit that’s around $2,500 and the install claims crazy fuel economy gains.

    http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2013/04/quick-install-efi-on-any-older-pickup.html

    This especially if you’re thinking about a remote starter. Or you could, technically, get a current Dodge Challenger SRT8 and graft everything over. Drivetrain, electronics, ECU, power accessories, lighting, instrumentation, steering column, passenger/driver airbags, sensors, the works. Depending…

  • avatar
    Ryoku75

    I never cared for keyless entry systems new or old, they’re just trouble when tech savvy thieves show up.

    If you want to make that Charger modern I suggest disc brakes and a CD player, anything more and I’ll ask “why didn’t you buy a modern car to start with?”. Drive that thing before you start cutting up wires for modern comforts.

  • avatar
    seabrjim

    My first concern would be making sure it had a proper 400 B block. Thats where the fun begins!

    • 0 avatar
      danio3834

      That’s what I was wondering too. Chargers of this generation need big blocks, if only to fill the massive space under the hood. I wouldn’t be opposed to a hot small block though.

  • avatar
    carinator

    Dude, buzzkill called and said you’re harshing his mellow.

  • avatar
    turbobrick

    I do believe all V8 Mopars received solid state ignitions for 1972 model year so no need for Pertronix on this one.

    As far as using a 1970’s car as a daily driver… Just know what you’re getting into. I drove a ’74 Swinger for two years a decade ago. You can’t just hop in and go in the morning, you have that whole “pump, crank, wait, tap, wait, go” routine. Other motorists inability to understand that you can’t brake as fast as they can is annoying.

    Oh, and vinyl seats in the summer… ouch.

  • avatar
    DasFast

    As a youngster, part of my daily winter morning routine was to breathe life into a 440-6 Pack and scrape ice off the windows while avoiding the choking exhaust fumes. I developed a knack for starting my dad’s car that no one else seemed able to replicate.
    If you live in an area that gets even remotely cool during that time of year, either abandon the remote start idea or add fuel injection to the beast and keep it in an absolute optimum state of tune. A slightly out of whack engine from that company and era can leave a pool of unburned fuel in the snow the size of a trash can lid within moments of firing. Getting it to start is also no guarantee it won’t stall and refuse to start even when partially warm.

  • avatar
    scottcom36

    Also, carbed cars need to be manually kicked off the fast idle. Start the car remotely and after a couple of minutes the engine will be screaming.

  • avatar
    -Nate

    I guess I’m unrealistic then as I do not own any Modern Vehicls .

    Mhy faithful if battered 1959 Nash Metropolitan FHC is parked outside , like all oldies it requires more attention than moderns but I rather like blazing my way through the landscape in it , the 35 MPG helps too .

    NO a/c NO p/b NO remote anything . I did put in a slush box because my injuries preclude me having fun with the clutch pedal anymore =8-( .

    -Nate

  • avatar
    Lorenzo

    If it’s not mechanically perfect, forget it. Forget anything that wasn’t standard or optional on the original car. If you buy it, drive it daily and learn all the quirks of cars of that vintage, without any of the modern appliance features, and you’ll experience motoring back in ancient times and be able to converse intelligently with your grandfather and his generation. A couple years driving the beast ought to do it, and you’ll be a better person for it. Then dump it on another young’un for his education.

  • avatar
    CelticPete

    Resto mods are really cool. But if you are a person on a very modest budget classic cars aren’t really where its at. You don’t need Leno money but they are not the bargain choice they appear to be.

    I agree with the other poster who recommends suspension/engine/brakes/safety upgrades first. That’s where I would spend the money..

    However once you start doing that you realize why a Dodge Challenger is quite awesome. The looks of the old car – the torque of the old cars and the safety, convience and relability of a new car..

    And no the Toyota fans who grouch about the reliablity of a modern Dodge have no idea how much work a classic car is.

  • avatar
    Moparman426W

    Chrysler installed electronic ignition systems on a few 71 Imperials, and by 72 all Mopars came from the factory with electronic ignition. However, since this guy seems more interested in installing a remote starter system on a classic car I doubt that he will own it very long.
    Having to actually put the key into the lock cylinder to unlock the door is one of the many charms of owning an old car.


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