By on August 30, 2017

Minivan collage - Sienna Odyssey Pacifiica - Images: FCA/Honda/ToyotaIt was quicker, quieter, more fuel efficient, and less expensive, but the all-new 2018 Honda Odyssey failed to win its first Car and Driver minivan comparison test.

The fifth-gen Odyssey is also the newest minivan redesign. The Toyota Sienna was updated for 2017 with a new powertrain but remains in large part the same minivan that arrived for the 2011 model year. The first Chrysler Pacifica minivan — aka the second Chrysler Pacifica — has been on sale for nearly a year and a half. The Kia Sedona, having lost its previous Car and Driver comparison test, was not deemed eligible for the test. Likewise, the Dodge Grand Caravan, while currently America’s top-selling minivan, was rendered ineligible by past performance.

With only three minivans in the test, all upper-crust examples of their specific nameplates, each contender finished on the platform. But lofty expectations for the all-new Odyssey failed to come to fruition, and the segment progenitor’s party trick produced a solid victory.

Stow’N’Go isn’t the only differentiator, however.

As always, it’s possible to poke holes in the winning argument, not just with Car and Driver but essentially any publication. (In a TTAC comparo last year, for instance, Matthew Guy and I both recommended the Mazda 3 to ourselves, but strongly suspected most buyers would prefer the Honda Civic.)

Car And Driver gives an extra point in its final score to the Pacifica for ride — 9 points for the Pacifica, 8 for the Odyssey, 7 for the Sienna —but complains about the Chrysler’s “floaty suspension,” saying the Pacifica, “has a bad habit of bouncing over undulations.” Meanwhile, the Odyssey’s “suspension does a better job of managing rough roads.”

Yet that scorekeeping contradiction doesn’t alter the results. You don’t need to be a Detroit homer to understand why the Chrysler Pacifica is a worthy victor. “The Pacifica seems like something you’d want to take care of,” Jeff Sabatini writes. “Its interior is nicer and appears to be better assembled, with more isolation from the outside world.” Indeed, while the Odyssey’s massive leap forward in infotainment and interior design brought Honda’s van way upmarket, there’s plenty of materials inside both the Odyssey and Sienna that feel decidedly industrial.

But in the Pacifica, Car and Driver says, “Fancy little touches abound, such as the piping around the seats, real stitching on the steering wheel, and anodized-metal dash inserts.”

And yes, then there’s the second-row Stow’N’Go seats. All three vans can be turned into pickup trucks, but the Pacifica can be turned into a pickup truck more easily and more quickly. For van drivers who don’t do that, the Odyssey’s Magic Slide second row enables far superior third-row ingress, particularly with child seats latched into the second row. But Car and Driver is “skeptical that such a feature would prove anywhere near as useful as the Pacifica’s Stow ’n Go system.”

Not factored into this comparison test is any thought of long-term value. The Odyssey was already the least expensive vehicle in the comparison as-tested, and also the cheapest (marginally) to fuel. But in Edmunds2016 Best Retained Value Awards, the Odyssey claimed segment leadership; no FCA van was even included in the honorable mentions. That was the Odyssey’s sixth win in six years of Edmunds‘ awards.

ALG flips the order of Car And Driver’s test results when it comes to residual value, placing the Sienna first, the Odyssey second, and the Pacifica third. After 60 months, KBB says, the 2017 Sienna is worth 33 percent of its value; the 2017 Pacifica just 26 percent.


Dollars and cents, of course, are only part of the equation. The Chrysler Pacifica that makes you feel good when it’s parked in your driveway. The Sienna, regardless of the points it earned for possessing the best engine, is an appliance. The Odyssey, no matter how well it fared for offering the best ride/handling balance, is just a tool for a job. The Chrysler Pacifica? “It’s the one we’d most like to live with,” Sabatini writes.

[Images: Fiat Chrysler Automobiles, Honda, Toyota]

Timothy Cain is a contributing analyst at The Truth About Cars and Autofocus.ca and the founder and former editor of GoodCarBadCar.net. Follow on Twitter @timcaincars.

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86 Comments on “The 2018 Honda Odyssey Just Lost a Minivan Comparison Test (*Shock Horror Gasp*)...”


  • avatar
    DeadWeight

    Honda has rested on its laurels for far too long in terms of interior quality, quality of materials, and now, even reliability/durability (both Honda and its lame Acura division should hang their heads in shame over hideous design, a trend towards turbocharging, and other very un-Honda like risky moves that have hurt them badly and will in terms of long-term reputation in the years to come).

    “The Pacifica seems like something you’d want to take care of,” Jeff Sabatini writes. “Its interior is nicer and appears to be better assembled, with more isolation from the outside world.”

    Heads should literally roll at Honda.

    • 0 avatar
      VW4motion

      Just look at the Honda lineup over the past 6-10 years. Those Honda heads are so far up there own ass’s this test just won’t matter. They are still depending on repeat customers from the 80’s and 90’s when Honda didn’t rely on bean counters for decisions.

    • 0 avatar
      thelaine

      Beheadings?

    • 0 avatar
      Chris FOM

      Name one manufacturer that’s NOT moving to Turbocharging. Short of a supercar it’s almost impossible to find a naturally aspirated European car for sale in the US. Other than a Porsche GT3 I’m not sure a naturally aspirated German car exists. Jaguar is mostly/all turbos, so is Alfa Romeo. For domestics Ford and GM are more diverse but turbocharging is taking over their lineup as well. FCA has been more careful but they’re slowing adding more turbos. Moving to Asia Honda and Toyota, the two makes you’ve been shrilly clinging to for years as never adapting turbocharging have both rolled over. The Koreans are all-in as well. I guess that leaves Mazda? Anyone else?

      In addition your anti-turbocharging schtick is wearing thin. These aren’t new technologies at this point either historically or in their modern form. They certainly have their issues (if you actually use the boost kiss the mileage benefits goodbye) but many of these brands have now been turboing their engines for nearly a decade and we have yet to see anything like the reliability apocalypse you’ve been swearing was inevitable for the last five years. Might be time to stop tilting at that particular windmill.

    • 0 avatar
      DeadWeight

      Honda fanbois, defend Honda until you’re blue in the face, but the most credible data has them falling precipitously in terms of reliability, nearly across their entire model spectrum, in the last 3-4 years.

      Honda should roll itself and Acura into one, new corporate entity named Psshmonda.

    • 0 avatar
      jalop1991

      “Heads should literally roll at Honda.”

      A-MEN.

      Maybe it will help when I send American Honda a copy of my sales order for a 2018 Sienna Limited Platinum, bolted on top of 30 years of Honda dealer service invoices–along with a brief on exactly how American Honda screwed themselves, and why I dropped them like a hot potato.

      And frankly, even outside my personal experiences, anyone who buys a V6 Honda should be VERY aware that he’s buying an inherent leasemobile. You will not have it past 3 years, because VCM and the crappy transmission will conspire to make you not be able to wait to get rid of it. But fool that you are, you will go back and lease another one.

      • 0 avatar
        Stevo

        Damn, guess I should trade in my ’02 Odyssey daily driver (albeit, not driven far). Is it because I didn’t lease it that it runs and runs?

        • 0 avatar
          DeadWeight

          Once AGAIN, reading comprehension is fundamental!

          Me: “Honda fanbois, defend Honda until you’re blue in the face, but the most credible data has them falling precipitously in terms of reliability, nearly across their entire model spectrum, *IN THE LAST 3-4 YEARS*.”

          Stevo replied: “Damn, guess I should trade in *my 2002 Odyssey* daily driver (albeit, not driven far). Is it because I didn’t lease it that it runs and runs?

      • 0 avatar
        Lucius Tate

        I wouldn’t expect much from Honda. Most of my extended family were in the Honda camp for 20 years. After 3 of us had transmission failures with V6 engines ( 2 Odysseys, 1 Accord) and Honda “generously” offered a remanufactured junk transmission for $2000 (Two of us took the offer, both were failing again within a year, the other took the hit and dumped the Accord) that was enough. Letters to corporate netted us nasty arrogant phones calls essentially saying we were ungrateful. All of us now have Chrysler products, and are very happy.

        After I sent a letter to corporate with a picture of us leaving the dealership in our new Chrysler, we got a phone call apologizing and asking “What can we do?”

        It took restraint not to say “F*** off.”

        Honda built nice-handling vehicles with great visibility and attractive exterior and interior designs ( I still think the 2nd gen Odyssey is a handsome design that holds up almost 20 years later). They were good enough to put up with the skimpy amenities and ridiculously lousy noise control that made conversations with rear passengers a shouting match.

        Now Honda builds cheap-looking, overly busy and downright ugly vehicles. The Odyssey and Civic in particular look like they’ve been in accidents as they come off the line. Yuck.

      • 0 avatar
        Conslaw

        Our 07 Odyssey is at 160,000 miles, and is outside parked on the street in a college town, getting run into every now and again. The sliding doors don’t work so well, and it has a few dents that will probably never get repaired, but it runs without drama, and there’s no rust. The young one graduates in 18 months. I’ll let him keep it or sell it for whatever he can get for it to put towards his first new car if he has the job to support the payment.

    • 0 avatar
      Sam Jackson

      It seems like Honda in America is going in the direction of Honda Japan, which has always been known as a maker of low-quality cheap cars with questionable reliability here in Japan.

      When I moved from the States to Japan many years ago, I was shocked at the difference in perception for Honda between consumers in the U.S. and Japan. I quickly gave up on the idea of buying a Honda in Japan when I was told in no uncertain terms that no self-respecting guy would be caught dead driving a Honda here.

    • 0 avatar
      GiddyHitch

      ““The Pacifica seems like something you’d want to take care of,” Jeff Sabatini writes.”

      And yet we all know deep down that it is not.

    • 0 avatar
      SportyClassic

      Agreed 100% Honda quality is not comparable with Toyota.

    • 0 avatar
      jonnyanalog

      Having crawled around the Pacifica at a corporate event, and being an experienced industrial designer, I’ve found its not really all that well screwed together and the materials really aren’t that good. Many parts, especially those around the shifter area and center console were flimsy, deflecting easily. The door bins felt cheap too. Not exactly top rung stuff here and certainly not better than the competition.
      Stow n’ Go is nice but unless you constantly remove the seats to haul bulky items its a useless feature which diminishes seat comfort significantly.
      Tops on our list as a replacement for our aging Ody is the Kia Sedona which is really a great value and under appreciated in this segment. A CPO Sedona can be had for downright cheap.

  • avatar
    ajla

    The Evora and Viper never win comparison tests either. Not everyone can handle a dedicated performance machine.

    • 0 avatar
      thegamper

      Truer words never spoken. Perhaps they missed the press conference where Honda told everyone it’s minivan was the drivers choice. Cant think of any other explanation as to how the sliding door sports car didn’t finish at the top of the podium.

  • avatar
    Richard Chen

    corrected link:
    http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/2017-chrysler-pacifica-vs-2018-honda-odyssey-2017-toyota-sienna-comparison-test

    Consumer Reports’ road test rankings:
    88 Pacifica Hybrid
    85 Pacifica
    82 Odyssey (2018)
    79 Sienna

    The Pacifica plug-in hybrid sounds interesting, but not interested in being a beta tester as it’s in its first year. Both the Pacifica hybrid and Sienna AWD are 7-passenger only.

  • avatar
    Der_Kommissar

    Interior quality on our 2015 Oddy is crap- it’s solid, but hard plastics and switch gear shared with a 2005 Accord we used to own abound. Multiple years into ownership I’m starting to regret it, as the cheapness is wearing on me. Still a solid, roomy family vehicle, but it’s not a place I enjoy spending time.

    • 0 avatar
      ash78

      Couldn’t agree more. The seats are fine, the car works pretty well, but I have tons and tons of complaints over things that would have been cheap (or free) to improve. The cruise control sucks, fuel economy is very hit or miss, lack of full gear selection, etc.

      Ours is also a 2015, purchased new, and we’re already questioning our choice of “10-year-plan” vehicles.

      From what I’ve seen for the 2018 model, it really isn’t much better at all.

      If you’ve got 10 minutes, have a look at my more thorough review of our 2015 shortly after purchase:

      https://oppositelock.kinja.com/the-only-honda-odyssey-review-you-ll-ever-need-to-read-1726724121

      • 0 avatar
        VW4motion

        You could fall into the same scenario as my coworkers and friends. No joke, many of them sold their Odyssey’s for used Toyota Sienna’s. Only one or two were replaced due to the awd option on the Sienna.

        • 0 avatar
          GiddyHitch

          VW4motion, I’ve also noticed that the Sienna is the clear preference among our friends and in affluent neighborhoods, even if the AWD option isn’t selected. It’s something like 85/15 for Sienna/Odyssey and That was surprising once I started paying attention. Pacifica is still at lolwut market share around here, like the Caravan before it.

      • 0 avatar
        Der_Kommissar

        Seriously, the cruse control is like a catapult at the top of a hill- almost dangerous the way it surges so late into the hill that you’re pretty much already going down when the torque hits. Overall, it’s very utilitarian, and a Touring from that gen is not much nicer inside other than the leather. It’s still a 10 year car reliability and utility wise, but not in terms of enjoyment. Prior gen is nicer, and I think we expected we would feel the same way about this one. I’m sure the new one is an improvement, but it looks like it may not be enough. Two generations in a row of lackluster interiors may start to hit sales.

        • 0 avatar
          SportyClassic

          Yeah the cruise is dumb it will try to keep the set speed no matter the conditions. Even my 99 Caravan would moderate the engine speed when going up mountains with the corresponding drop in speed.

      • 0 avatar
        bullnuke

        Great review over at your link @ash78. I have my own personal reasons for dislike (is that a strong enough description?) of Honda as a brand but the majority of your less than positive comments regarding your Odyssey apply to Honda vehicles in general – tinny, poorly finished, overpriced for the value of content, et al. But Hondas have an almost cult-like following of customers that swear by and not at ’em, folks that are more than willing to overlook any emerging issues or shortcomings as part of the ownership “experience”. These loyal owners seem to enjoy their special “relationship” with the dealer service departments and the arrogant associates shaming/blaming them for abusing the perfectly designed and assembled vehicles.

      • 0 avatar
        Der_Kommissar

        I read your review, and you’re pretty much spot on. We have the regular EX, and I don’t miss any of the extras you have OTHER than the leather seats. Seriously- 10 minutes in the cloth seats and my lower back hurts. A 8 hour car trip will leave me in pain the next day. I have to carry a pillow to stuff behind my lower back every time I drive the car. I would have paid the extra for your seats. But- the handling, engine, and utility are fantastic.

    • 0 avatar
      johnds

      That same switch gear in our 2003 Honda Accord has 264,000 miles and still holds up well. My other similar car, 2007 accord which is nearly identical is nearing 200,000 miles. Still looks great. I don’t sit in my car and pet the dash board though.

  • avatar
    VW4motion

    Honda Odyssey lost to an updated Chrysler. The Sky is Falling !!!

    Or someone seriously tested the vehicles and didn’t rely on name Honda?

  • avatar
    ash78

    This doesn’t surprise me at all — but Chrysler could be pulling a “VW” on us: Offering something that’s amazing when new, but falling apart in 5 years. But the comment about “something you want to take care of” resonates with me. It counts for a lot because hating your car is a miserable existence, especially if you spend hours a day in it.

    Source: Longtime happy 2001 VW owner; shorttime unhappy 2015 Honda owner

    • 0 avatar
      SCE to AUX

      I was an unhappy 02 VW owner, then an unhappy 05 Honda owner. It was a painful 5 years of car ownership.

      After the Honda (Odyssey), I went back to Chrysler, then to Kia.

    • 0 avatar
      ToddAtlasF1

      Chrysler 200s and Jeep Cherokees don’t take 5 years to fall apart. Anyone that buys a Pacifica is basically Charlie Brown running towards Lucy to kick a football.

  • avatar
    Parousia

    We owned a 2011 Odyssey (EX-L) and now own a 2017 Pacifica (Touring-L). My wife was an “H” fan, but greatly prefers the Pacifica. It’s quicker, gets better MPG (32 on a trip from Fargo to Des Moines, averaging 76mph), and has more room for life-with-kids. We appreciated stow-n-go the few times we’ve used it. It is also easier to clean. Fewer nooks etc for the goldfish and fruit snacks to get stuck/wedged/disintegrate in.
    Not factored into the total-cost-to-own is the haggling-discount you can get on most FCA products. We got $8,000 off the price of the Pacifica; I doubt you’ll get anywhere close to that on an Odyssey. To each his own, but unless Honda has significantly upped its game with the New For 18 Odyssey (seems like they upped Infotainment (how many millennials are buying minivans?) and cogs in the tranny…but beyond that it looks like a refresh rather than a redo), I can easily understand how the Pacifica came out on top.

    • 0 avatar
      ash78

      I think they finally added HDMI input (for the rear screens) across the line. In 2018. Think about that and tell me it doesn’t define “resting on one’s laurels”

      Sounds like the Honda resale values are more than made up for by FCA’s cash on the hood.

      I’m definitely keeping an eye on Pacifica. A hybrid model could really make kid-schlepping cheaper and easier.

      • 0 avatar
        FreedMike

        “A hybrid model could really make kid-schlepping cheaper and easier.”

        Assuming, of course, that the Pacfica Hybrid – which does actually exist – decides to start on any given day. Apparently that’s a problem for the real world model, or at least it has been.

        https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2017/06/chrysler-seems-cleared-pacifica-hybrid-hurdle/

      • 0 avatar
        Parousia

        Don’t forget, the Odyssey also has the “nanny cam.” Which should have no trouble competing with your smartphone for distracted driving honors. The plug-in interested us too, but 1st year of new tech and $8000 off on a regular Pacifica tipped the scales. But having the option of going all-electric on trips to school/practice (when gas engines are cold and stop and go and are at their least efficient) has great appeal!

  • avatar
    Zackman

    Hmmm… an FCA product wins?

    I suppose anything is better than an old Uplander, but FCA? I suppose the sky IS falling!

    Having said that, I find the Pacifica very appealing in the styling department, and even if the long-term reliability factor is an unknown, it sure would make me happy to look at it, keeping it clean and sharp and being seen in it.

    I hope the Pacifica lives up to its looks and functionality, for Chrysler’s sake. I think it’s pretty cool.

  • avatar
    threeer

    Would love a fairly loaded new Pacifica, but unless somebody has a heart and starts a GoFundMe account to assist, likely well outside of my budget. But it’d be a sweet way to haul the daughter and her pup around to the shows.

  • avatar
    roverv8i

    Coworker recently bought a Pacifica. His assessment was similar to C&D. Regarding the long term value, the deal he got on the Pacifica should most likely makeup for a lower residual value. The local Honda dealers were basically, take it or leave it at MSRP.

    • 0 avatar
      S2k Chris

      The problem with residual values is that you can’t just treat it like math. There is a reason certain vehicles have a lower residual value, and it’s because generally they are clapped out garbage no one wants to own after a certain relatively short amount of time. It’s not some grand conspiracy that Hondas and Toyotas have good residuals and Chryslers have garbage residuals; it’s because Hondas and Toyotas wear reasonably well* and Chryslers age like milk on a summer day.

      *Yeah, the fit and finish has gotten sloppy, but tell me it won’t still drive in a reasonable manner 10 years from now? And no, shut up about Honda 5ATs from 2004.

      • 0 avatar
        VW4motion

        Some of those elevated residual values are crap. I’m no Nissan or Hyundai fan, but they make very reliable and durable vehicles. And yet they have a crap resale value. On the other hand, Honda does have brand loyalty of past users of the 90’s.

        • 0 avatar
          ash78

          Totally agree, I feel like resale/residual values are based less on fact and more on perception — in a 10-15 year delay. That explains a lot of Hyundai and Kia’s weak residuals…and a lot of Honda’s inflated ones.

      • 0 avatar
        jalop1991

        “*Yeah, the fit and finish has gotten sloppy, but tell me it won’t still drive in a reasonable manner 10 years from now? And no, shut up about Honda 5ATs from 2004.”

        Nope. Not gonna.

        We still have our 2002 Odyssey EX-L RES, at the time the most expensive vehicle to leave that dealership. In 2+ weeks it turns 16 years old.

        The trans has been replaced, naturally, despite American Honda’s insistence that they aren’t all garbage. (Let’s do a meetup, and do a drinking game around Honda service stories.) And the rust–oh, the rust. I’m shocked Fiat hasn’t assessed licensing fees on those Odysseys.

        It’s a truck now, one that can haul people. Out of town? Um, no, I don’t think so.

        On September 10, 2001, based on my experience with Hondas, my plan was to keep AND DAILY DRIVE that baby 20 years. Nope. Not gonna happen. That I still have it is more a function of us ALSO having a 2007 Prius, and therefore not having to use the Odyssey so much. (It has only 115K miles…)

        And that’s one reason the Odyssey will be replaced by a Sienna soon. Complete with all the goodies.

      • 0 avatar
        jalop1991

        “And no, shut up about Honda 5ATs from 2004.”

        OK, so let’s talk about the V6 4ATs from MY1998 through MY2001. THOSE were all pure junk.

        And in the end, it looked like those were just practice for when they make the pure junk 5ATs.

        Two transmissions in a row, and Honda couldn’t engineer its way out of a paper bag on either of them.

        Heads should roll? Actually, Honda management should have fallen on swords.

      • 0 avatar
        geozinger

        “*Yeah, the fit and finish has gotten sloppy, but tell me it won’t still drive in a reasonable manner 10 years from now? And no, shut up about Honda 5ATs from 2004…”

        Sure. As long as people stop b!tching about 35+ year old X-cars and other things that haven’t been relevant in about 25 years or so.

      • 0 avatar
        JonBoy470

        The residual values are generally calculated based on depreciation from MSRP, and don’t account for the Big 3’s continuing propensity to offer significant discounts off of inflated MSRP’s as a marketing strategy. Also, vehicle longevity is very much a function of the depreciation curve, which itself a function of long ago models.

  • avatar
    S2k Chris

    I’m not as high on Honda as I used to be, but does anyone expect a Chrysler product to not become a raging dumpster fire inside of 5 years?

    • 0 avatar
      stuki

      Instead of 5 years for Chrysler vs 10 years for Honyota, it’s now 10 years Chrysler vs very possibly 20 Honyota. At which point the difference matters much less for the average new car buyer.

    • 0 avatar
      EMedPA

      With a sample size of 1, this is anecdote, not data, but my wife bought a T&C new in 2012, and 5 years/100Kmi in, it is NOT a raging dumpster fire. It has provided reliable, if not soul-stirring, transportation for our family of 5, and has doubled as a cargo van on more than one occasion.

    • 0 avatar
      PenguinBoy

      I still see a number of 4th generation and earlier Caravans on the road, which would be at least 10 years old at this point. So in at least some cases, they didn’t turn into a “raging dumpster fire inside of five years”.

    • 0 avatar
      geozinger

      Now that we’re empty nesters, I no longer have as much experience with up to date minivans as I once did. It seems all of my cohort has switched over to CUVs.

      But back in the day (meaning 10-15 years ago), I knew folks who had the 2nd and 3rd gen Chrysler minis that racked up impressive 200K miles of hard duty in their vans. We shared the driving for soccer/scouts/church events. I think some of those cars were never shut off…

      I know of several families right now with 4th gen Mopars still grinding it out well over 150K-200K miles.

      If those are a definition of a dumpster fire, then get out the weenies!

  • avatar
    FOG

    Where is all the outdated claims of Chrysler products not lasting 5 years coming from? Seriously would like some data for this because my personal experience is seeing Jeeps, Chargers, Ram 1500’s, Journey’s still looking and performing well in my geographical area.

    • 0 avatar
      stuki

      It’s based on experience 20 years old.

      Nowadays, it seems most “problems” are with the onboard electronics. Of the “my phone won’t pair, BMW sucks,” variety. The mechanicals are generally OK for all brands. At least all non-over-the-top luxury ones.

      Regarding Chrysler, even the air suspensions on the 1500s and 2500s are holding up, which is so weird it almost makes no sense, as those things are supposed to collapse at first sight of a speedbump.

  • avatar
    doug-g

    Not everyone is in bed with Honda, Timothy.

  • avatar
    Master Baiter

    I would expect the Chrysler to become a self-destructing rattle trap in about five years.
    .
    .

  • avatar
    JLGOLDEN

    I’m a huge fan of the Pacifica. I had a new Touring-L Plus for 5 months, and just lost in in the Houston floods a few days ago. First instinct is to purchase another Pacifica, but I will look at the 2018 Oddy, which was unavailable when I bought my van.

  • avatar
    2drsedanman

    I can’t say enough good things about my 2016 Sienna. We purposely bought the 2016 vs the 2017 due to the 16 having the tried and true v6/6-speed combo. It rides great and is a great vehicle for trips. A few years back, I had the kids set in one of the vans with stow-n-go seating and they didn’t think the seats were that comfortable. In the 10 years of ownership of my last Sienna, I only took the seats out twice. They weren’t that heavy.

    Anyway, congratulations to the Pacifica. Seems like they have a real hit on their hands with that Pentastar V6. My brother-in-law and uncle love theirs (Ram and Chrysler 300).

    • 0 avatar
      jalop1991

      Given the orgasmic reception the Pacifica got from the press, I had to see one. And my very first impression was that the stow-n-go seats are NOT at all comfortable. Bzzzzt. Sorry, Chrysler.

      Now I wonder if the hybrid seats are any different, given that they don’t stow.

      • 0 avatar
        Will in MKE

        No firsthand experience, but the word is that yes, the non stow-n-go seats are pretty plush. AlexOnAutos (I think – former TTACer Alex Dykes on youtube)has a really in-depth video on the Pacifica hybrid and mentioned as much IIRC.

    • 0 avatar
      GiddyHitch

      Might have been the smart move, given the option. We got the 2017 with the new engine (300hp omgomg) and 8sp, and immediately had to get the TSB for the low speed power and high gear Issue reported widely on the forums. Fortunately there was a fix, unlike the ugly front end issue that plagues the 2018+ Siennas.

  • avatar
    jkross22

    Honda isn’t bad, but they’ve fallen so far from their peak that they’re a shadow of what they once were. I grew up in the 80’s and remember Accords, Civics and Preludes as the best cars outside of the 300E.

    Then the Legend and Integra showed up and Honda upped their game. Then the NSX arrived. Everything since then has been a downward spiral for them. The new Civic seems to be an improvement and hopefully the new Accord will be, too. Acura still looks lost.

    Best way to describe Honda – lost.

  • avatar
    Frylock350

    Is the residual argument even valid when you can negotiate significantly more off a Pacifica than an Odyssey? So its worth less in a few years, but you also paid less.

  • avatar
    Dave M.

    My brother rented one for a week to take his kid to college and was very impressed. That said, if I was doing anything above base level I’d go with the Honda just for the reliability and resale.

    Our extended family’s experience with 3 Chryco products hasn’t been good. They wear out at 75-80k miles. I’m more Japanese oriented – I expect 150k miles before issues crop up…haven’t been disappointed yet.

    A minivan doesn’t have to be a penalty box, granted. But they are a functional tool for families that invariably are going to be worn down with daily life. I think Honda has the right mentality when it comes to interior plastics and wearability.

  • avatar
    RV1458

    I liked the Pacifica interior when I first saw it, and it is nicer in higher trims, but comparing a Touring-L side by side with an EX-L the Odyssey has a higher quality interior imo. Feel free to disagree, but the Pacifica seemed a little cheaper/lower quality to me.

  • avatar
    PrincipalDan

    KBB says, the 2017 Sienna is worth 33 percent of its value; the 2017 Pacifica just 26 percent.

    There’s why so many people would rather buy a Tahoe, Suburban, Expedition, crew cab pickup truck, Armada etc with their new car dollars.

    Their residuals are closer to 50%.

  • avatar
    LeBo13

    Family vehicle means Family which means Parents which are Millennials. We want vehicles that text and call for us and can stream our music and audio books. Hotspots and shared streaming is an added perk as well as easy entrance for squabbling or dirty kids and pets. Vaccuums and leather is a must have for me but not for all. But what Millennials want most is to get away from the outdated minivan look to a sportier crossover design.

    I haven’t bought yet but the New Honda Oddessy 2018 design with the invisible track and redesigned body style sure has caught my attention. The Sienna looks old fashion and oitdated, something our parents may have bought. Won’t even make the list of SUV’s I’m looking at. In fact, the Oddessy is the only van that does.

    Car makers should guarantee Android Auto and Apple compatibility. Amazing that many vehicles still are missing this key feature.

  • avatar

    I’m a Honda guy…until it comes to the minivans.

    I always recommend the Sienna.

  • avatar
    thegamper

    Wow, a lot of Honda hate mail in this thread. Am I on TTAC……yep. WTF is going on.

    I had a 2011 Odyssey lease for 3 years and won’t get another. Nuff said.

  • avatar
    danio3834

    I had a Pacifica for about 6 months last year. I drive a lot of cars and I have to say that van was among the most enjoyable to drive and live with. A minivan that’s a good drive? Whoda thunk?

  • avatar
    Rocket

    I thought the Pacifica hybrid was the deal of the century, especially since you don’t have to put up with the wonky ZF 9-speed. That was until I realized there are a whole bunch of features that you don’t get in the hybrid, and they aren’t even available as an option. Disappointing.

  • avatar
    dror

    To all Honda haters!
    Here is a list of things that went wrong with a 2016 Accord EX:
    As a reminder, this is not my car, I leased it the same way I leased a 2014 Accord Sport and I don’t think I will ever buy one with my own money.

    The infotainment system is made out of 2 screens, the top one flickers from time to time, both screens will go black in the middle of a drive and the whole system shuts off, no music no phone no nothing until I stop and restart the car.

    The rear camera assembly came off it’s base and would dangle off the trunk lid, the dealer tried very hard to convince me that it got hit by something and saw invisible scratches on it, only after I argued with the service manager and asked him to show me any scratch or mark on the camera, he agreed to replace it under warranty.

    As the car is parked in a closed garage, the first move is always backing up, no matter how long I wait after starting the car, as soon as I put it in reverse and start moving, there is an engine hiccup for a second or two as if the engine is about to stall.

    The keyless system is going on and off in a strange way, to lock the car, you press the little button on the door handle, if everything is locked, you get the beep and flash answer, in the year and a half that I have the car, it will not answer or flash for periods of about a week at the time, I can never repeat the problem at the dealer because it always go away.

    Now, about 2 days ago, the only way to open the trunk is manually from inside the car, the trunk release would not respond to the key fob or the button on the trunk lid, I scheduled an appointment at the dealer for next week, I hope it will not fix itself by the time I get there.

    In a normal car, the tire pressure monitoring system is individual for each wheel, in the Accord, it rely on the ABS system, if there is a significant difference between wheel speed, you have a flat, it means that you have to calibrate the system whenever you check tire pressure, I wander how many Accord buyers know that, it is probably another way to save money on manufacturing.

    • 0 avatar
      Will in MKE

      quote: “In a normal car, the tire pressure monitoring system is individual for each wheel, in the Accord, it rely on the ABS system…”

      And, as an owner, let me say THANK you for that. Not having to deal with TPMS is fine with me, thankyouverymuch. Ever dealt with flaky sensors, or receiving unit, on “normal” cars? Well, consider yourself lucky. Not having to buy add’l sensors for a second set of wheels for snow tires is an added bonus. ABS sensors are already there – why not use them? works fine by me, and the Honda system has had no problem picking up pressure differences for the 2 nails I’ve gotten resulting in slow leaks. I’m OK spending 30 seconds with a pressure gauge to figure out which tire is down, thanks.

      • 0 avatar
        Will in MKE

        My reply above was not meant to be snarky – sorry that you’ve had issues w/ your ride. Dealing with Honda dealer attitude re: warranty claims is not my idea of a fun time. I do wish you the best.

        That TPMS thing strikes a nerve with me – can understand that when leasing vs. buying, one would think that it’s desirable to have individual sensors. As an owner, however, I don’t want to pay for them and the associated problems. Batteries in the sensors die, etc.

        • 0 avatar
          Scoutdude

          The batteries, at least in the sensors in my 2003 last a surprisingly long time (knock on wood) as all 5 are still working. Now admittedly that has been helped by the fact that for most of its life it has had summer and winter tires and they don’t transmit very often if they aren’t spun by driving a minimum of ~20mph, unless they drop to a very low pressure. That is not the same as the pressure that sets off the light as that is determined by the receiver module. For example my E-series has staggered pressures as do many high capacity trucks. So the computer has to know which is in a particular position. Because I don’t use its full 3000lb payload I run the same pressure front and rear and reprogrammed the Smart Junction Box with the new rear tire pressure.

          • 0 avatar
            johnds

            are the sensors from 2003 the same for 2012 and newer vehicles? The system is now federally mandated, and the 2003 system may not be compatible with federal regulations.

  • avatar
    kobo1d

    Pacifica just barely edged out the competition for us too, before considering prices. Factor in the $8000 price difference vis-à-vis the Asian competition and it became a no brainer, potential long term reliability issues be damned.

    • 0 avatar
      JonBoy470

      This was our justification years ago when we bought a pre-owned Dodge Grand Caravan over a Honda Odyssey. At the time there was a 6 or 7 grand difference between the two, putting the Honda somewhat outside our comfort zone, budget-wise. The Dodge was “good enough” and we reasoned it would take a hell of a lot of unreliability for the repair costs to negate the initial purchase savings. This calculus was borne out over a nine year ownership.

  • avatar
    RS

    If it wasn’t for Stow-n-Go I wouldn’t have a minivan as I use mine for a pickup replacement. I’ve been a long time truck buyer, but as I’ve aged, I wanted something lower and that is easier to commute in and park. I’ve also look for something with more storage that isn’t as exposed to the elements and is lockable. After the lease of my 2014 Ram (and F150 before that) I started looking at Chrysler minivans. I bought a used 2010 T&C Touring with a 3.8L that served me well for a year. Now I have a 2014 T&C Touring with a 3.6L that was a CPO. The 3.6L has more power and better MPG’s.

    The biggest thing I thought I’d miss was 4WD, but that hasn’t been an issue. with a RWD vehicle, 4WD is nice in winter. With FWD, it doesn’t matter that much. It’s also nice to get the extra MPG – easily 4-5 MPG better everywhere. The van also has towing and pulls our utility trailer and boat fine. (It’s not a big boat.) :)

  • avatar
    akatsuki

    I always thought of Stow and Go as trying to serve too many masters. A complicated bit of engineering that had real costs in seat comfort and flexibility.

    The families with young kids never use it – those child seats are anchored in there for 5+ years now. And once the kids are out of those seats, they can pretty much go into the back of a crossover.

    The carry people and haul shit crowd could do with even thinner and crappier seats that fold flat.

    And frankly, Chrysler quality is nothing to write home about. No family that can afford better would buy one, and no family that can’t afford better should buy one.

    The Sienna is a heavy bitch, especially loaded. The older Ody was loud at highway speeds. So realistically there is no perfect player in the field.

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