While You Were Sleeping: January 20th, 2015

Every niche has its hardcore fan base, like Vulpine and his obsession with subcompact pickup trucks. Although he admits the Santa Cruz would be "almost" perfect and not likely to buy it. Except the hardcore fans are very unlikely to make these their primary rides, therefor they prefer or limited to "used". That's where the hairdressers, gay/lesbian/trans, pensioners, rich kids, etc, come into play. These "lifestyle buyers" go from niche to niche for they absolutely have to make a "statement". A Corolla or Camry just won't do. The 'niche' they settle on can be an arbitrary thing. It doesn't have to be one or the other. An impulsive buy at best. It's well known 1st, or original owners of Wranglers, Miatas, FJs, etc, are these lifestyle buyers, with the hardcore fans of these and other niche vehicles waiting on the s!delines, salivating for 1st owners to get bored with them and move on to the next thing that fits their fancy. The OEM could not care any less, who the heck buys their products, but it's still a gamble. High stakes too, as they're setting themselves up for huge losses if they don't sell as hoped. It's a given niche vehicles need an existing platform to mitigate costs. The Ridgeline, BAJA, BRAT, etc. wouldn't be possible without that, even though they'll cannibalize more profitable models. Not the Wrangler, but it took many decades to cultivate a huge lifestyle following and guaranteed sales. It's predecessors date back to WWII. The '80s Mini-Truck Craze was a tremendous lifestyle market. Consumers have always and will always needed small trucks to do light work, but I'm talking about the enormous surge the segment saw for a few years straight. A few niche markets lost steam right before, and others took off right after. It was the prefect storm for compact and subcompact pickup trucks. OEMs are reluctant to bring small/tiny pickups to the market (or back to), thinking the won't sell for a variety of reasons. They're always only in it for the money, unfortunately. The vulpii demographic will likely have to go without, sorry to say. Or build/restore/reso-mod their own. Or seek counseling/meds.

@DenverMike Say DenverMike, Just curious, are you the same "Mike" as in "Mike Baxter" from "Last Man Standing?" He's kinda a right wing, glass half-empty, Denver conservative, car nut, wacko too... which explains a lot. BTW, what's up with Mandy?

@Qbranch Nah, he's like a lot of guys here, just has everything all figured out

@DenverMike Yeesh! I hate going point-on-point on such idiocy; but it needs doing. "Although he admits the Santa Cruz would be "almost" perfect and not likely to buy it." -- I think "almost perfect" would imply I'm more likely to buy the Hyundai over any other available full-sized or mid-sized truck. I certainly did NOT say, "... and not likely to buy it." "Except the hardcore fans are very unlikely to make these their primary rides, therefor they prefer or limited to "used"." -- So now you think you're a psychologist and know everything about everyone--especially me. Only you would continue to ignore a statement AND EVIDENCE that I refuse to buy used. I now own two niche vehicles and both are essentially primary rides. I haven't owned any "mainstream" vehicles new though. My F-150 was "ancient" and my last sedan was twice as ancient. For those who say, "the car makes the man" I say, "bull"; I drive what I like and not what people think I should drive. Meanwhile, full-sized pickup trucks are the single most dangerous vehicle on the roads. It is extremely rare where a collision with a pickup truck involved doesn't include serious injury or even fatality. "That's where the hairdressers, gay/lesbian/trans, pensioners, rich kids, etc, come into play" -- Ah. Now I see it. Your masculinity feels threatened by these smaller, more playful rigs so they just HAVE to be owned by pansies. "These "lifestyle buyers" go from niche to niche for they absolutely have to make a 'statement'." -- Or not. Maybe they just don't need a Giant Truck from HE!! and simply find the smaller types more convenient. "A Corolla or Camry just won't do." -- Not when you need an open bed. "The 'niche' they settle on can be an arbitrary thing." -- Like CUVs? "It doesn't have to be one or the other." -- Unless the 'other' isn't available. "An impulsive buy at best." -- Or maybe the only practical choice available, hmmm? "It's well known 1st, or original owners of Wranglers, Miatas, FJs, etc, are these lifestyle buyers..." -- Oooh! Don't let the Rednecks read that line... especially that part about Wranglers. You'll have a lot of hard-core off-roaders on your case. (What, you think I only read TTAC and PickupTrucks dot com sites?) "The OEM could not care any less, who the heck buys their products, but it's still a gamble." -- Your education (or lack thereof) is showing. Two too many commas in that sentence. Additionally, the statement itself is false; they care very much that they make as many sales as possible; that's why they make niche vehicles right beside their mainstream ones. How else can you explain the presence of the Raptor in the Ford lineup? "High stakes too, as they're setting themselves up for huge losses if they don't sell as hoped." -- How true. I had to laugh at all the, "It's not a real Raptor" comments on the announcement of the 2016 EcoBoost model. "It's a given niche vehicles need an existing platform to mitigate costs." -- Obviously not, since the Wrangler is just one of many that don't fit that paradigm. "The Ridgeline, BAJA, BRAT, etc. wouldn't be possible without that, even though they'll cannibalize more profitable models." -- What cannibalization? Did you ever think it was BECAUSE they were built on an 'existing platform' that they failed? The Ridgeline had some serious design issues but is a remarkably versatile vehicle. The Brat was an attempt by Subaru to dodge the Chicken tax (and failed because of the outdoor seating--it's the primary reason we now have laws prohibiting passengers in the back of a truck) and the Baja tried to emulate the Avalanche--only smaller. Thing is, I would now be driving a Baja and not a Wrangler, had they kept up production for just one more year. Sure, I could have bought one used--but remember what I've said many times already? I Don't Buy Used! "Not the Wrangler, but it took many decades to cultivate a huge lifestyle following and guaranteed sales. It's predecessors date back to WWII." -- Please explain to me how it took many decades for the Jeep to "cultivate a huge lifestyle following". It was a hit from the original Willys and is essentially the only vehicle in the world to see near continuous production from its initial concept. It proved itself in WWII, Korea, Vietnam and elsewhere all the way up into the '80s as a military scouting vehicle and its popularity overflowed from those military users into private use immediately after WWII. In fact, the first Land Rover was essentially a rebuild of an original Willys and was built up from that concept Jeep. In one way or another, the Jeep has remained in active production for now over 70 years. "The '80s Mini-Truck Craze was a tremendous lifestyle market." -- Considering how many of them were used for real, productive tasks, it was hardly a craze nor a 'lifestyle'. They were working trucks--just smaller than full-sized. "Consumers have always and will always needed small trucks to do light work..." -- BINGO!!! "... but I'm talking about the enormous surge the segment saw for a few years straight." A surge spawned by a sudden need for much more economical vehicles that could still do REAL WORK. "A few niche markets lost steam right before,..." -- Like the VW or the Corvair pickup? "and others took off right after." -- like the Ranger, S-10 and Dakota. "It was the prefect storm for compact and subcompact pickup trucks." -- (Perfect, not 'prefect'. Completely different word.) And the closure of certain loopholes in the Chicken Tax is what killed them--followed by increasingly stringent fuel economy laws which OEMs chose to work around rather than complying. "OEMs are reluctant to bring small/tiny pickups to the market (or back to), thinking the won't sell for a variety of reasons." -- Reluctant? Or afraid they'll lose their cash cow in the form of full-sized trucks? In nearly every other country outside of the US, it's the compacts that are FAR more popular but don't bring in the same high profits. (There are a very few exceptions, however. Very few.) " They're always only in it for the money, unfortunately." -- Most truthful thing you've said in a long time. "The vulpii demographic will likely have to go without, sorry to say." -- Unless or until someone decides to crack the niche open to see what happens. "Or build/restore/reso-mod their own." -- Quality units are hard to come by today. Even before spending an arm/leg to "resto-mod", you've got to have at least a decent starting point. "Or seek counseling/meds." -- It seems the ones most afraid of change are in more need of counseling than those trying to drive change.

@Vulpine "Yeesh! I hate going point-on-point on such idiocy" But, yet... . ... 120 lines later

@Lie2me This Atlas doesn't shrug.

@Lie2me I did say it had to be done.

@Vulpine - Rust-free '80s mini-trucks are widely available. Check craigslist outs!de your tiny little area. Like new! California was the epicenter for the craze, and still crawling with them. This week I saw a beautiful fully restored '88 Toyota 4X4 pickup and Mitsu Mighty Max, within minutes. Awesome! Jaw dropping. Both had new original graphics too. Or they've been in storage since new. But I'm not afraid of change. I've rolled with the times and progressed from mini-trucks. Yes I owned a few. Moved on like everyone else. You're the one that's stuck in the '80s, dude. A lot of prior mini-truck OEMs have no fullsize pickups to cannibalize. But they have all sorts of very profitable smaller cars and CUVs that would take a hit from very low profit, smaller pickups. The only change in the Chicken tax from 1979 to Now, was the end of the BRAT and Transit loopholes. So it's unclear why you think the Chicken tax could've ended the Mini-Truck craze. It just lost momentum like the Custom/Molester-Van Craze before it. It happens and will keep happening. Hopefully it'll start over with the Vans, then Mini-Trucks again! I never said "Lifestyle" buyers were all pansies. Except CUVs are hardly lifestyle vehicles. Trendy no doubt, but mostly alternatives to boring SUVs and sedans, no? Used mini-trucks were bought up by the trades people, when the lifestyle buyers were done with them and moved on to compact and subcompact sports utilities. Again, you were one of them... You had the lifestyle mini-truck that probably didn't have a dent or scratch, except in the bed maybe, at the time you sold it. Then you went to a lifestyle Wrangler. When you sell it, some rockcrawler will modify it to the extreme. You're proving my point for me!

@DenverMike "The only change in the Chicken tax from 1979 to Now, was the end of the BRAT and Transit loopholes." -- The Chicken Tax took effect in the late '60s to very early '70s as I remember. It is why the VW van-based pickup quite suddenly disappeared from US shores. (Strangely, so did the Chevy, the Ford and the Dodge versions. Guess Ralph Nader had a finger in that pie, too.) And while you're right that the loophole closure occurred somewhere around '79 or shortly thereafter, at the closing of that loophole, their prices skyrocketed (they had to add 25% to the original MSRP) and the American made small trucks were able to undercut them slightly and still see profit. One of your cohorts loved trying to argue that inflation was the only cause of the price jump just then, but it was the Chicken Tax that triggered that inflation.

@DenverMike "it was the Chicken Tax that triggered that inflation." You should sue your high school for malpractice for allowing you to graduate. (I would suggest that you sue the university that you attended, but I'm sure that there wasn't one.)

@Vulpine - OK, I'll put it in yet another way: What EXACTLY changed about the Chicken tax, *during* mini-truck craze, that would've affected the segment? And if said imported mini-trucks were harmed by any "changes", US built mini-trucks should've got a BOOST. Did they? Or did they start to die off, right along s!de? But this nonsense about inflation is ludicrous. Not only did "import" mini-truck prices rise LESS than the domestics, giving them a sales advantage, all car prices rose MORE than import mini-trucks. In fact EVERYTHING EVERYWHERE cost more!!!

@DenverMike Boy....DiM and Pch101. Pch101 is an intelligent version of DiM, with an IQ pushing 80. At the most DiM'est you must be a glow worm, with limbs and digits. The last straw that broke the back of the mini truck was when the rules changed and cab chassis mini trucks from Japan were taxed. If you had any automotive knowledge you would know that the mini truck were built in Japan and the beds fitted in the US. The UAW, Big 3 and government at the behest of the socialists UAW and Big 3 made those changes. That killed the mini truck. After that the price of "Made in the USA" mini trucks rose by 25% which exceeded inflation and the rise in the cost of cars. Boy, how DiM can on be. You aren't know right wing person. Your brain is too f!cked up on drugs or something. What planet are you from, both of you? When and if you state any different provide links to give some credibility to your screwed up imaginative fiction.

@DenverMike Reading Al's attempts at verbal communication and my living with arthritis have awakened me to the advantages of knuckles helping feet with navigating stairs, slippery surfaces and generally accessing low areas around one's environment. May not be much for grammar or logic, but I'll bet he can simply fly around a building for his maintenance job despite his age. Bipeds, be not proud.

@DenverMike It's what happens when someone growing up takes "getting an "E" for effort" seriously

@BAFO - I'm not sure why you keep bringing up a loophole that ended in 1979, when the the mini-truck craze/fad/dynasty started and peaked long after that. You can claim ignorance, but we've been through this repeatedly. And reciting ad hominem "UAW" nonsense means your silly arguments crashed and burned. You've got zero.

@DenverMike "You can claim ignorance" It's not a claim, it's a verifiable fact

@DenverMike "You should sue your high school for malpractice for allowing you to graduate." -- Then I should sue you, Pch, for you are the one who linked to that specific information in your attempt to prove that inflation was the cause. It clearly pointed out that prices rose AFTER the loophole was closed. Cause and Effect. "US built mini-trucks should’ve got a BOOST. Did they?" -- Yes. The Dakota, Ranger and S-10 hung around for an additional 20 years, only losing buyers when they grew larger than their first and second generation models. Ford and Dodge chose not to acknowledge this growth in size, but GM did by re-naming the S-10 to the Colorado. And speaking of those "rust buckets", the only places where you see these old trucks in any quantity is where they've been protected from road salt, in other words, in inland southern lands where snow rarely falls and you can't smell the sea. The rarity of such trucks where I live now is made more obvious by the few I do see which are either recently painted (with questionable metal beneath) or in various stages of disintegration.

@Vulpine - So how did import pickups end up LESS expensive than domestics with all this Chicken tax induced US inflation that also affected cars MORE than import pickups, and even caused food and textiles to inflate as much? Domestic midsize pickups lasted longer because consumers actually bought them. You seem to think OEMs will kill off popular models that are selling through the roof? But the Dakota was midsize from the start. This while the Ranger remained compact til the end. So what does size have anything to do with anything you're babbling about? All cars, SUVs, minivans, etc, got bigger since the '80s because that's what consumers want. You know where to find good clean rust-free mini-trucks for sale by the thousands, but you can't be bothered? So should potential compact pickup OEMs take someone like you seriously? And why am I even replying to such nonsense???

@DenverMike We're all entitled to our opinions. But anyone who would believe that the US experience with double-digit inflation during the late 70s/early 80s was caused by the end of cab-chassis loophole for pickup trucks is a complete moron. There is absolutely no reason for anyone to believe that. As I noted before, the price of compact trucks didn't even keep up with inflation during that time. That's a big hint that the OEM's absorbed the cost in the form of lower profits or incurred losses, because they couldn't pass on the price increase to their customers. It happens.