By on November 15, 2014

TTAC sales chart trucks and best-selling SUVsPickup truck sales increased 10% in the United States in October, an 18,590-unit jump in a market which grew 6%. Besides drawing attention to the, “The people buy trucks because the fuel is cheap,” argument, which is not at all completely false nor entirely true, the 10% increase drew our attention to the massive figures generated by the biggest nameplates and their expansive product ranges.

We’ve covered truck sales already this month, so rather than taking another deep dive into October’s specifics, consider instead the percentage of America’s growing auto market that belonged to the pickup truck category last month: 15.8%.

That’s not a small number. Indeed, it’s a significantly larger number than the one achieved by the category through the first ten months of 2014: 13.8%. For perspective, however, think back one decade. In 2004, 19% of the new vehicles sold in America were pickup trucks.

Although this chart provides another line at which to gander, we’re not suggesting that buyers of dual-rear-wheeled Ram 3500s are switching over to Honda CR-Vs, only that times are changing. Pickup trucks remain vital to the health of the American auto industry, more significantly because of their profit generation than with their outright volume. But the market isn’t returning to a 16 million+ annual sales pace because of the strength of passenger cars, or minivans, or pickup trucks. It’s the ess-you-vees.

The Honda CR-V, Ford Escape, and Toyota RAV4 are all on pace for another record sales year, a follow-up to 2014’s record sales year for each of those nameplates. Ford should also sell more than 750,000 F-Series pickups, a startlingly high number compared with the totals achieved by other vehicle lines, but not exactly the 939,511 sold in 2004.

Timothy Cain is the founder of GoodCarBadCar.net, which obsesses over the free and frequent publication of U.S. and Canadian auto sales figures.

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271 Comments on “Chart Of The Day: The Pickup Truck Portion...”


  • avatar
    sportyaccordy

    People are buying what they want to buy. Not what I want to buy, but hey, more power to them.

    Since I moved down south I have been able to ride in a few pickup trucks and BoF SUVs. They have the interior space of a midsize car at best, and from the passenger seat, have the dynamics of a tall dresser on wheels. I REALLY don’t understand the fascination, but it all seems to come down to a collective regional culture. No different from folks buying acres of land they don’t farm or eating at a buffet. It is what it is.

    • 0 avatar
      brn

      I’m not sure what pickups you’re riding in. A full size, extended cab pickup has quite a bit more space and tons more headroom than my full size (technically “executive class”) sedan. It’s downright absurd how much space some of these pickups have.

    • 0 avatar
      DenverMike

      @sporty – “If you have to ask….” I’m not a fan of that saying, but it fits. Once you’ve owned a truck for some time, you feel handicapped in a sedan, SUV, etc. Especially if you’re a home owner with a yard. And or enjoy the great outdoors. You can get by with a sedan, but unless you had to, why would you?

      • 0 avatar
        nrd515

        Exactly! I had a friend whose biggest vehicle was a mid 80’s Monte Carlo. He always claimed he would never buy “one of those giant pickups”, meaning an extended cab full sized, 4 door truck like I drove. Then something happened, he got reamed in a divorce, and was flat broke, his dad was about done with driving due to age and eye issues, so he gave him his 2005 F150. A couple of years later, he was doing ok financially, and went looking for a new vehicle, which ended up being a 2009 F150 4X4 Lariat. He bought a Ram 1500 last year, and loves it. He can’t imagine ever going back to a car as a daily driver.

    • 0 avatar
      highdesertcat

      sportyaccordy, for many people if they can only have one vehicle, the four door full-size half-ton pickup truck is the ideal vehicle. It does everything, including tow and haul. Not everyone can afford to buy a brand new one and pay the $8K – $10K profit the OEMs take off the top.

      For illegal alien Mexicans, the used Chevy pickup truck is the one treasured possession they want most of all. I had no trouble selling my ’88 Silverado ExtCab for way more than it was worth on the open market. Even my 2006 F150 XLT was sold to a young airman getting out of the service and moving back East.

      For others the pickup truck is a second, third or fourth vehicle in the stable of transportation at their residence. My 2011 Tundra 5.7 is my main ride. I very rarely drive any of the other vehicles we have. Well, maybe to fill them up with gas……

      • 0 avatar
        dal20402

        “The four-door full-size half-ton pickup truck is the ideal vehicle.”

        Unless you want to ever enjoy driving even a little bit. Or park anywhere other than an exurban big-box complex.

        • 0 avatar
          highdesertcat

          dal20402, I would look to the versatility and utility that a pickup truck, ANY pickup truck, offers to explain why that segment is the best selling in the US.

          I didn’t say that it was the ONLY vehicle that people choose to own.

          Besides my 2011 Tundra, we also own a 2012 Grand Cherokee and a 2015 Sequoia, and by extension a 2008 Highlander and a 2011 Elantra. I say by extension because I’m the one putting gas in them.

          I did write that if a person could only have one vehicle, and many people can only afford ONE vehicle, the four door pickup truck satisfies the most needs and wants for many people.

          I see this a lot with the young GIs from the military bases in my area. Tons of pickup trucks – they’re everywhere, they’re everywhere!

        • 0 avatar
          Carlson Fan

          You may not enjoy driving one, but most PU owners would much rather drive their PU than whatever it is you drive. I drive my FS crewcab PU into downtown St. Paul and Minneapolis all the time. Piece of cake. Judging by all the other people in FS PUs around me at the stoplights I suspect I am not unique.

          • 0 avatar
            highdesertcat

            Carlson Fan, although we have several vehicles available to us most of the time, I rarely drive anything else than my 2011 Tundra 5.7 DoubleCab.

            My wife now works from home so her 2015 Sequoia doesn’t get much mileage on it because she no longer commutes up the mountain every day.

            And her 2012 Grand Cherokee has been parked in the carport since mid September.

            We gave the 2008 Highlander to our 17-yo grand daughter in El Paso, TX, to use and the 2011 Elantra is still being used by our 23-yo grand daughter in Cloudcroft, NM.

            But her Elantra is rarely used now since everything my grand daughter needs or wants is within walking distance from the office where she lives on the second floor.

            Needless to say, my usage of gasoline has taken a crash dive since we rarely drive anywhere anymore.

        • 0 avatar
          highdesertcat

          dal20402, I would look to the versatility and utility that a pickup truck, ANY pickup truck, offers to explain why that segment is the best selling in the US.

          I didn’t say that it was the ONLY vehicle that people choose to own.

          Bes1des my 2011 Tundra, we also own a 2012 Grand Cherokee and a 2015 Sequoia, and by extension a 2008 Highlander and a 2011 Elantra. I say by extension because I’m the one putting gas in them.

          I did write that if a person could only have one vehicle, and many people can only afford ONE vehicle, the four door pickup truck satisfies the most needs and wants for many people.

          I see this a lot with the young GIs from the military bases in my area. Tons of pickup trucks – they’re everywhere, they’re everywhere!

        • 0 avatar
          Lou_BC

          @dal20402 – all depends on where you live and what you want. I can go explore the back country for a day and never exceed 50 mph and have more fun and face more driving challenges than driving at highways speeds in a car for a day.

          Full sized trucks have their limits just like any vehicle. A crewcab 4×4 is extremely versatile.

    • 0 avatar
      highdesertcat

      sportyaccordy, for many people if they can only have one vehicle, the four door full-size half-ton pickup truck is the ideal vehicle. It does everything, including tow and haul. Not everyone can afford to buy a brand new one and pay the $8K – $10K profit the OEMs take off the top.

      For illegal alien Mexicans, the used Chevy pickup truck is the one treasured possession they want most of all. I had no trouble selling my ’88 Silverado ExtCab for way more than it was worth on the open market. Even my 2006 F150 XLT was sold to a young airman getting out of the service and moving back East.

      For others the pickup truck is a second, third or fourth vehicle in the stable of transportation at their res*dence. My 2011 Tundra 5.7 is my main ride. I very rarely drive any of the other vehicles we have. Well, maybe to fill them up with gas……

    • 0 avatar
      DeadWeight

      There are 3 things that my family are not allowed to speak of Holiday get togethers or in polite company. These 3 things are:

      1) Politics

      2) Religion

      3) Pickup Trucks*

      *See comments within this thread for examples as to reasons why.

      • 0 avatar
        nrd515

        A family I know wouldn’t have anything to talk about if they followed your rules. I have had the best times going over there on holidays and watching the show. Sadly, most of the best performers are gone now. The constantly crying aunt, along with her husband, who was one of the most sarcastic guys I’ve ever seen, and who enjoyed setting off his wife and daughters by saying stuff that would make Don Rickles cringe. The grandfather who told one of his grandkids that she stunk as a dancer, and as a piano player. It’s still fun to watch them go at it, but nothing like it was even 10 years ago. It was so much better, in the “old days”.

      • 0 avatar
        AJ

        That’s a shame… lol… That’s what my family talks about… although it’s Jeeps instead of pickups. :)

    • 0 avatar
      VW16v

      If you have the lifestyle of never doing work around the house and get everything else delivered to your home. You would not understand the use of a pickup truck. Feeling secure is also a selling feature. A civic/accord that you can dent with your thumb does not give a sense of security vs. a full size pickup.

  • avatar
    Hummer

    More like cee-you-vees.

    Pickup prices have hit ridiculously high levels, options are at an all time low, and to get a decent pickup that’s not going to crumple like a soda can when used as a pickup, you have to go 3/4 ton. The automakers are doing this to themselves by spending lamborghini development money to build a pickup which drives up the cost for buyers, logically people aren’t going to continue buying as quickly.

  • avatar
    Lie2me

    Trucks are very profitable, if automakers want to increase these numbers the best way to do that is to offer more styles, sizes and configurations.
    It seems like a no-brainer, but yet so slow in development, at least for the North American market, but I could be wrong

    • 0 avatar
      Vulpine

      You know? You’re right, Lie2me. Modern assembly technologies have made it possible to return to the A-la Carte method of ordering and building vehicles which could truly give customers what they want instead of loading them up with unnecessary junk just to get the one thing they need.

      • 0 avatar
        Lie2me

        I don’t even mind the “unnecessary junk” just put it on something other then a giant P-U

      • 0 avatar
        Carlson Fan

        Except is has nothing to do with the assembly process. It’s about forecasting the parts so that you have them to assemble. The package options make this a LOT easier for the manufacturer. The reality is it would cost you more to order a new car/truck exactly the way you wanted without the unwanted options.

  • avatar
    petezeiss

    Trucks are dead to me. They can’t stave off the collapsing roofline any more than can sedans. Pitiable state of affairs, literal oppression.

  • avatar
    Jeff S

    Trucks will continue to get more expensive and most consumers will seek out more affordable options. Trucks will not die but they will level off at a much lower volume, they will still be highly profitable for manufacturers. Crossovers present a much more practical and usable option for most people.

    • 0 avatar
      DenverMike

      Trucks are only expensive when you option them up to the hilt. Otherwise they’re still one of the best values around. And that’s before rebates. Plus amazing long-term resale. Sales remain strong for a reason. Crossovers are good for most everyone else.

      • 0 avatar
        Vulpine

        So you’re saying an 8-year-old pickup truck can retain better than 50% of its purchase value while an SUV can’t. I would argue that an SUV has you beat there, in that the Jeep Wrangler at 8 years old IS still at or above 50% of its purchase.

        • 0 avatar
          DenverMike

          @Vulpine – That’s not what I said. But a 10+ year pickup usually fetches 50 to 100% more $$$$ than the similar SUV, minus the balcony. Funny how that works.

          The Wrangler is a weird “SUV” where many more want them ‘used’ than new.

  • avatar
    turvo

    Full disclosure, I own a truck. I also own a very busy full service car wash and see scores of 50k+ daily driver and brodozers that are rarely if ever used for their intended purposes.
    My truck on the other hand I bought off of a friend in early 2009. It was a high mileage but well maintained top of the line Dodge Dakota quad cab SLT with every conceivable option including the 360 and AWD. My God you say! An early 2000’s dakota, what a steaming pile, but no, not at all.I paid only 3k for it. Nearly 6 years and maybe $1800 in repairs and maintenance later the damn thing still does nothing but start, run like a champ in the most extreme of weather. Takes us up to Montana and Idaho every summer and handles truck chore duty on the weekends.
    It does everything those brodozers and pavement queens do for less than $5000 over 6 years. BTW the odometer just turned 278,000 last week. I love my stupid, clumsy and honest truck. I love even more how little I have into it.

    • 0 avatar
      Lie2me

      Maintenance makes a big difference in any vehicle branded a steaming pile, good for you, sounds like a great truck

      • 0 avatar
        turvo

        Thanks lie2me, the old truck had the typical Dodge paint fade that made it look like crap and I started to unconsciously think of it as “crap”. I quickly paid a local shop to paint the hood and roof last May for $500.00. Crap attitude gone, the next thing I did after looking at it was to change all, and I mean all of its fluids down to the brakes. That’ll learn me. I hate, and I mean HATE car payments.

  • avatar
    87 Morgan

    I don’t get the truck hate. Every guy I know that has one uses it for its intended purpose, perhaps not everyday but in the modern world we don’t get to go Elk hunting everyday, or weekly. But the one week a year, when we get to go up in the mountains it sure seems like a better idea to put said Elk in the back of the truck instead of in the back of the CUV.

    • 0 avatar
      Lie2me

      I don’t think there’s so much “truck hate” I think people who see a nice looking truck with nothing in it label it a “glamor truck” not realizing that the day before or after it may have been on the job hauling stuff. Same goes for seeing SUVs in the Mall parking lot. What you don’t see is that same SUV taking the family camping the weekend before.

      Grousing about underused utility vehicles is just one of those car forum memes

      • 0 avatar
        Mandalorian

        I don’t get the hate either, but I bet a good deal of it comes from the stick-shift-sucking liberals.

        I’ve always maintained that the best way to see my home state of Wyoming was from the front seat of a pickup truck.

        • 0 avatar
          Lie2me

          Yeah, that’s got to be it… (roll-eyes)

        • 0 avatar
          elimgarak

          Have driven across wyoming a few times from east to west in its entirety (not off road) but I’ll have to go with the teton county local choice of the subaru outback being the ideal ride for wyoming if you aren’t actually needing the bed of a pickup or towing capacity.

          • 0 avatar
            Lie2me

            I crossed Wyoming when I was a kid in my parents Sedan DeVille, from the backseat of that comparable Widebody 1011 Wyoming was quite pleasant

          • 0 avatar
            30-mile fetch

            Outback? You stick-shift-sucking liberal.

          • 0 avatar
            highdesertcat

            I crossed Wyoming earlier this year in a 2012 Grand Cherokee with a 8X10 Haulmark dual tandem trailer in tow, on our way to Zephyr Cove, NV.

            We enjoyed it, but we did RON outs*de of Jackson Hole at the ranch of my wife’s sister.

            After a hearty Wyoming breakfast of steak and eggs the following morning at her place, we hit the road again.

            The scenery in Utah is what sucked, especially west of the Great Salt Lake.

        • 0 avatar
          30-mile fetch

          “but I bet a good deal of it comes from the stick-shift-sucking liberals”

          Well, it ain’t the Cheney-worshipping Republicans ruing the advance of civilization in the netherlands of Wyoming :)

          The Prius doesn’t come in stick.

        • 0 avatar
          87 Morgan

          Well, two things…

          1. My father in law is a complete Volvo driving liberal commie. In favpct and the MIL were in attendance for the Willie Nelson concert in NEabout a month back or so. But, he does have a CC Dually F350 V10 in the barn to use when farm work needs done or snow needs plowed. So I would say even liberals like their trucks.

          2. As a UWYO graduate I can say the ride across Wyoming is painful no matter what Vehicle you are in. Windy, cold, & barren.

        • 0 avatar
          Quentin

          Going over the bighorn mountains, I was very happy to be in my GTI instead of a truck.

      • 0 avatar
        RobertRyan

        Lie2me,
        Not uncommon to see “Glamour” F250/F350’s being used for nothing in Australia. considering the amount of money required to convert them it does not make sense. Convertors reckon 20% are used as “glamour” vehicles, 80% for hauling Caravans and to a lesser extent 5th Wheelers

    • 0 avatar
      TW5

      One week a year, I like to snowboard in the backcountry. I should buy a helicopter. I could fly it to work everyday, too.

      Detroit gave you permission to throw your money away, and you seized the opportunity. Normally, it would be no one’s business, but oil imports wreck all of our dollars, and frivolous importation of raw materials makes it nearly impossible to combat the Asian currency manipulators via the WTO.

      • 0 avatar
        Lie2me

        Obligatory “trucks/SUVs/CUVs/ anything but Prii wasting natural resources” thank you

      • 0 avatar
        petezeiss

        I’m too dumb for all that global econ stuff. If I liked current production trucks I’d buy one.

        • 0 avatar
          Lie2me

          It’s easy, don’t waste gas use electricity

        • 0 avatar
          RobertRyan

          @HighDesertCat
          An extract from a fellow who owns and sells “Living Light” Truck Campers. The model appears to be more suited for a F350 . A lazy axle would have allowed the GVM to be raised
          “Previously I had a BT50 with a chassis extension as I wanted an extra cab and the price was better than the Ford Ranger. However the payload was at best marginal but I was impressed with the Mazda – and I had an F250 previously and a Landcruiser 70 series before that.

          A very important point to note is that both myself and my co-pilot agree that the Nissan Navara is by far the best ride with the camper and boat on. The BT50 was actually far more stable and more comfortable than the F250. Mind you the F250 was a 2004 model but it did have new suspension including a 4 inch lift kit with an extra leaf in the rear springs, massive air bags and a total of 6 top quality shock absorbers.

          I originally bought the Mazda to test it out with a camper on the back and sell it as a package with the camper. I was so impressed that I sold the F250 instead – a big call as I loved my effy. At least it went to a good home. The new F250’s are great but then again so is the price – I can buy 2 new Mazda BT50s (set up with lazy axles to carry an Australian Ultimate camper) for the price of one new F250, with enough change to cover fuel costs for a year or two.”

    • 0 avatar
      dal20402

      Personally, I can’t see myself putting up with a giant, impossible-to-park, fuel-sucking, poor-handling behemoth 51 weeks of the year just so that I don’t have to rent a truck for the other one week.

      • 0 avatar
        Carlson Fan

        But what your missing is most of the guys that drive PU’s as daily drivers wouldn’t want it any other way. They like the size, could care less about the handling(we have mostly striaght roads in the US, AKA interstates), have no problem parking them and probably don’t do a 100 mile daily econobox commute so gas isn’t a issue.

        And find me someone in Minneapolis who will rent me a vehicle to tow my boat. Good luck, your gonna need it.

        • 0 avatar
          RobertRyan

          One criticism was the width of US Pickups here. I cannot post it as it is a video, but a local Automotive website compared a Crewmax Tundra against a Global Ford Ranger.Pros were interior size, especially back seat, Image, not so heavy on fuel as would be expected., same as a V8 performance car, ride more like a large sedan, unlike the more “nervous” Ranger
          Cons: Cost of conversion, paltry payload, width, hard to park in Australian inner cities, fuel economy of small diesels vastly better and towing only 1000lb better, terrible Off Road capability

          • 0 avatar
            Lie2me

            That doesn’t seem fair, why wasn’t the mid-size Ranger compared to the mid-size Toyota Tacoma?

          • 0 avatar
            RobertRyan

            @Lie2me
            Not really “fair,” but showing the differences between the two. It was more fascinating than anything else
            Comparing a HDT SCANIA against a HDT Navistar Conventional Truck be equally as interesting

          • 0 avatar
            Lie2me

            It seems pointless to compare two different classes of trucks, they’re not designed to compete with each other, hence the argument that smaller trucks wouldn’t affect sales of larger ones. Two different vehicles designed to do different jobs

          • 0 avatar
            RobertRyan

            @Lie2me
            No they are not designed to compete, as theyarec designed for different environments. Why the comparison? Same reason you would compare a SCANIA Cabover to a Navistar Coventional, because one vehicle is rare or does not exist in the others market.
            A Tundra Crewmax is rarer than Hens Teeth, so it’s relatively, larger size and SUV comfort, make it an unusual “glamour” vehicle

          • 0 avatar
            Lie2me

            Oh, so the Tundra is the largest truck available there, I get it

          • 0 avatar
            RobertRyan

            @Lie2me,
            No, it is the fact that a U.S.1/2 ton is rare, a Tundra extremely rare.
            No we have converters doing F250-f450’s, RAM 3500, Siverado’s for towing Caravans

          • 0 avatar
            DenverMike

            @RobertRyan – “Paltry payload” compared to what? US market trucks are SAE J2807 rated, while OZ marketed pickups leave “official” payload ratings entirely to the sense of humour of OEM!

          • 0 avatar
            highdesertcat

            For those who have never seen pickup trucks overseas, the US half-ton pickup truck is relatively light duty. Not a serious contender until you get to the 1-ton chassis.

            For instance, Toyota came out decades ago with a tiny 1-ton pickup truck the size of a LUV. Really!

            I owned a used one for a little while that had a camper built onto the frame like a Winnebago and had duallies on the rear axle. I ended up selling it to an outdoorsey type guy in Delta, CO, when we were up there visiting a family friend.

            And to this day, he still uses that little booger.

          • 0 avatar
            RobertRyan

            @DenMike
            You were adding comments to that video on the site, till the Admin, figured out you were a Troll from the U.S. and removed them. “Paltry payload” as regards Global Standards. Even by the somewhat rubbery SAE ratings the payload is tiny

          • 0 avatar
            RobertRyan

            @HighDesertCat
            The payloads and sizes like in the US have been growing. Now you can get Truck Camper, that would be too much for 1/2 ton but OK for a 3/4 ton, to fit rather well on the new Global Pickups.

          • 0 avatar
            DenverMike

            @RobertRyan – The USDOT or SAE gives the most conservative capacity ratings in the world. By far. Payload especially. So when comparing ratings of US pickups to OZ market pickups, they’re worlds apart.

            There’s obviously no USDOT/SAE equivalent in OZ. Ratings are left completely to the OEM’s discretion.

            That Aussie site still has my comments up. Maybe what you see in OZ is different. I’m looking at 61 comments still up.

            http://www.caradvice.com.au/317566/toyota-tundra-review/

          • 0 avatar
            RobertRyan

            “@RobertRyan – The USDOT or SAE gives the most conservative capacity ratings in the world. By far. Payload especially. So when comparing ratings of US pickups to OZ market pickups, they’re worlds apart.”
            So it is not accurate, agree about that. Overblown capabilities, to appeal to the buyer not an engineer Even so given this “puffery”, , the Tundra has terrible payload numbers. Our a proper TC on the back of a Tundra, it would not hold it

          • 0 avatar
            RobertRyan

            @DenMike
            Yes you did, I thought you were banned. Looks like you cannot understand why US Pickups in the real world have downgraded capabilities. comparing a Hilux to a F250. That would have raised a few eyebrows on the site.
            “−
            Avatar
            DenverMike Phil • 10 days ago
            Regardless of the reasons for it, there’s clearly a huge disparity in ratings systems. Which you’ll agree. US pickups are at a huge disadvantage in OZ, payload-wise, solely from US ratings being a straight carryover, when hitting your shores.

            But does than mean they’re physically less capable? Never mind the Tundra for a sec. Look at an F-250’s HD frame, huge brakes/drivetrain/steering/suspension components vs a Hilux and the like. Full floating axles, front/rear… You tell me… Worlds apart, no?
            • Reply•Share › ”

          • 0 avatar
            Drzhivago138

            The terms “1/2 ton,” “3/4 ton,” etc., mean absolutely nothing when it comes to payload ratings and haven’t since at least the mid-90’s. Even the “weakest” Ram 1500 or Tundra have a payload of somewhere around 1200 lbs. The heaviest-equipped “1/2 ton” F-150 has a payload of over 3000 lbs. A better classification system in the US measures GVWR, using 8500 lbs. as the cutoff between “1/2 ton” and “3/4 ton”. But even that has its limits; a heavy-duty F-150 tops out at 8200 lbs. GVWR, and I wouldn’t be surprised if we hit the ceiling within the next 5 years.

          • 0 avatar
            highdesertcat

            RobertRyan, that would not surprise me as we all have seen refinements and improvements in all the vehicles on the market, well, maybe save GM and their lethal ignition switches.

            Since I am no candidate for ownership of the global pickups, I am not at all informed about them.

            I am looking forward, actually excitedly, about what the 2016 Tundra 5.7 CrewMax 4×4 will offer. More than likely, it will be the last pickup truck I will buy during my lifetime. But if they quit making them, my next truck will be an F250 4dr 4×4 with the biggest gas engine I can buy.

            We just bought my wife a 2015 Sequoia Platinum 4X4 last month and that will most likely be her last ride before the hearse.

          • 0 avatar
            Big Al from Oz

            @Lie2me,
            A US half ton is in the same class as our global midsizers. If our midsizers were sold in the US they would be a Class 2 vehicle, not a Class 1 like your midsizers.

            The GCM of a global Ranger is 6 000kg or 13 200lbs. Sort of smack in the middle of what most of your Class 2 trucks are.

            The GVM of a global Ranger is 3 350kg or around 7 700lbs.

            The figures are very similar and competitive. That’s why there is the poulet impot. Less competition.

            So, it seems to be a relatively fair comparison done by Robert Ryan.

          • 0 avatar
            DenverMike

            @RobertRyan – There is no “accurate”. Just what SAE engineers limit trucks to. And what OEM marketing limit trucks to in OZ. Two completely different rating systems. Incompatible.

            OZ “ratings” seem to be more concerned with holding a static load, vs accounting for braking, engine power, cooling, drivetrain, axles, bearings, lug nuts, tires, parking brake, etc, etc.

          • 0 avatar
            DenverMike

            @Robert Ryan – No, I thought you were banned from that OZ review site. You popped off about trolling or something and then dropped off the tread when it came down to talking facts.

          • 0 avatar
            RobertRyan

            @DenMike,
            I know that the U.S. ratings are over rated, if the Pickups could actually do what they claim the ride and handling would be terrible. To stop that, they are down rated to something that is little more than a overblown station wagon

            As far as Trolling goes you seem to be changing your name constantly on PUTC. Eh “Tom”?

          • 0 avatar
            DenverMike

            @Robert Ryan – It doesn’t matter the site. Yourself and BAFO always accuse everyone of multi-posting under different user names, when the site consensus is you’re full of sh!t.

            So regardless if US pickup ratings are overly cautious, they can’t be compared to “world” ratings that are overly optimistic. Especially when it comes to payload. Welcome to the land of lawyers and ambulance chasers. And again, your truck ratings are more concerned with what the springs will support, and nothing else.

          • 0 avatar
            DenverMike

            @BAFO – Actually your global trucks are sold here. The Nissan Navara is the Frontier and the Holden Colorado is a Chevy. But they’re not class 2 trucks here. Just class 1.

      • 0 avatar
        Lou_BC

        @dal20402 – you must live in a big city. In my part of the world (Northern BC Canada) rental trucks are next to impossible to find during spring, summer and even into the fall since companies doing seasonal work often prefer to rent or go with short term leases.

        It is a lifestyle choice for most, I will concede that point but then again, any vehicle not used to put food on the table is a lifestyle choice.

        Impossible to park may be a reflection of your driving skills or lack thereof.

        Poor handling all depends on where you drive. Try following me in the winter or even summer down a logging road and we will see who has the poor handling vehicle.

        You don’t like trucks, that is obvious.

        • 0 avatar
          RobertRyan

          @Den Mike,
          @Lou, @Big Al from Oz, and @Jeff S. Are all aware you post with multiple names. I have not got a problem with that, it is what you post, not who you are, that your judged on.

          Well US Pickups need to get with the times,Even in Australia alternatives are taking their place. If you want a SUV, that is big enough to hold 5 comfortably, but has limited towing and payload capabilities , then that is fine

          No the Navara Global version is not the Frontier, it is not a diesel, it the Frontier does not have a 2,500lb payload. You need substantial beefing up of the chassis to do that.

          Equally the Holden Colorado is substantially different as GM described when giving it a different body, chassis and downsized capabilities. No Diesel although has been promised

          • 0 avatar
            DenverMike

            @RobertRyan – 1st, an engine choice has nothing to do with payload. Except the heavier engine will have less payload net.

            There is nothing different about the Navara and Frontier to give one 2X the payload in OZ. Same with the Colorado, as a Holden vs Chevy.

            You’re talking Aussie “static payload” ratings vs SAE ratings that account for stopping, turning, accelerating, cooling, axles, lug nuts, tires, bearings, bushings, ball-joints, U-joints, etc, etc.

            You and BAFO have been making fools of yourselves accusing many here of “multi-posting” with revolving user names, when your silly trolling views are shot down by numerous people at once. It’s getting ridiculous already!

          • 0 avatar
            highdesertcat

            DenverMike, sometimes different people look at the same facts but come away espousing a different interpretation of them.

            Kind of like the stock market. For every person that sells, there’s one that will buy the same stock. Same facts. Different interpretations.

            I always get a kick out of the stuff we Americans discard, whether that be cars, trucks or whatever, only to find that there is always someone ready to scarf it up.

            There is something to that old saying that one man’s trash is another man’s treasure.

            Ditto with pickup trucks. I sure see a bunch of ratty old discarded US pickup trucks being towed behind another ratty old truck, heading south into Mexico, on US54.

            Go figure!

          • 0 avatar
            DenverMike

            @Highdesertcat – I love diversity and thank Gawd my tastes are far from the mainstream. But these 2 are professional trolls, world class.

            When they 1st showed up here, I believed all they said, because like I said, they’re extremely good at what they do. And I like to believe people 1st. So I thought yeah, American autos/trucks really $UCK, and in many ways, so does the American way of life.

            But something didn’t sound just right, so I dug a little deeper once hearing the same things over and over. It was in their tone that gave it way. Others have noticed it too.

            I don’t know what motivates these 2, but it seems deeply rooted.

          • 0 avatar
            DenverMike

            @Highdesertcat – Most don’t realize how many pickups we lose to Mexico every year. Has to be around a million. New pickups are about 1 in 8 new autos sold, but I’m only seeing about 1 in 20 on the road.

            But my life has been partly dedicated to scooping up what others deem junk. My 1st car was the newer Mustang GT, no way I could afford. I took 2 “totaled” but late model Mustang GTs and made one good one.

            My main home was ready to be torn down, but came with 2 acres of prime real estate, and in town. Only one like it. Now I rehab old houses, written off by everyone else.

            I think most are obsessed with instant gratification, “turn-key” etc.

          • 0 avatar
            highdesertcat

            DenverMike, when it comes to the internet, nothing should surprise us. But I tend to be more tolerant of people who comment, choose to comment, are compelled to comment, or comment to vent. I’ve learned at lot from the comments of other people. And that is a good thing.

            The way I see it, everybody should be given a fair shot at stating their opinion because, as we all know, opinions are like @ssholes. Everybody’s got one.

            Some commenters, here and elsewhere, appear to have two, because they must be talking out of their @sshole because their mouth knows better.

            One dead giveaway of who the phonies are, is a condescending, all-knowing attitude towards other commenters, as if the condesender is the only one with an opinion that matters or is of the correct interpretation of the facts.

            Those are the Jonathan Grubers of the world and are usually found among academia and people living in their own little hypothetical universe without real-world experience who consider everyone else stupid.

            Once identified, we each have the option to skip over their comments.

            Sometimes I’m not that lucky. Sometimes I find comments in my RSS reader that I would have skipped over. In that case I just don’t reply.

          • 0 avatar
            highdesertcat

            DenverMike, I keep losing my comments to the Great ttac void. And Safari on an iPad does not lend itself well to copying, editing and pasting, then resubmitting.

            Because I am swamped with ripping DVDs today, I just don’t have the time to get on my Win8.1 PC because it is being used for the ripping. I don’t want other applications running behind the ripper – it could possibly cause hiccups when ripping to the HDD or writing to the DVD-R.

            Bottom line to my comments: we each have the option to skip over a comment and not react to it. I receive every comment in my RSS reader but skip over most.

    • 0 avatar
      Syke

      Shiny pickups that aren’t hauling loads, and SUV’s (CUV’s) that have never been rock climbing or mud bogging, these are a few of our favorite hates.

      For some reason, that bitchiness doesn’t extend to sports cars that have never seen a track day.

      • 0 avatar
        Lie2me

        Just because you don’t see a load in my pick-up doesn’t mean I’m not carrying one when you’re not lookin’ or climbing rocks in my SUV when I’m not at the Mall

      • 0 avatar
        TW5

        Because sports cars are not designed for the track, and sports cars don’t move 1.5M units every year @ 17mpg.

      • 0 avatar
        alexndr333

        << Like he said. We drool and wet ourselves (well I don't) over the latest $140K exotic which is purchased mostly by rich poseurs. Yet, there is continual crabbiness on these sites about big trucks / SUV's driven in the suburbs – and sometimes by women! So, let's get a few things straight: We live in a free society where we get to do more of what we want than any other place on earth. We live in a big country where long, flat straight highways mean we don't always have to deal with weenie cars on weenie roads. We live in a rich economy where gas is cheap, cars are cheap and insurance is cheap – relatively speaking – and any 18-year old with a little effort will be driving. And lastly, we are now a NET EXPORTER of oil. Therefore, if I want to drive a big rig or low-slung two-seater, it's my business. The government will load on the 'external' environmental costs of my decision with taxes and regulations, and I'll accept that. This is still a better driving environment for the vast majority of us than any other place. For full disclosure I drive a Spark EV (recharged by roof-top solar) and a Cadillac SRX (first series). Before that I had a 2011 Cadillac CTS-V coupe stick-shift. I don’t care what you drive, as long as it’s interesting.

        • 0 avatar
          Lie2me

          I agree, I was a little disappointed after that big build-up that you drive a Spark and an SRX, I was expecting an F-250, but I agree with what you said, if you can afford it, drive it

          • 0 avatar
            alexndr333

            Yeah, I drive one of those weenie cars, but that 400 ft-lbs of torque is tons of fun. I don’t have any interest in a truck, but I have nothing against anyone who does. (Well, except that Excursion owner who ran me and my Miata off Pacific Coast Highway back in 1999 when he wasn’t checking his mirrors.)

          • 0 avatar
            Lie2me

            I like the SRX, it’s on my short list of possible next CUV. 2012 or newer, better engine

        • 0 avatar
          deanst

          Um, no. If by “we” you mean the u.s., you need more oil than you produce.

    • 0 avatar
      VoGo

      What truck hate? All I see is a bunch of truck owners inventing strawmen so they can justify their purchases.

      Reread what sportyaccordy said: “People are buying what they want to buy. Not what I want to buy, but hey, more power to them.”

      • 0 avatar
        Lie2me

        “A bunch of truck owners”, where? I see two. One guy who’s happy with his old Ram and one guy who feels guilty about owning a truck because he thinks trucks are going to destroy the middle class

        • 0 avatar
          Lou_BC

          With the exception of 2 years, I’ve always owned a truck. The 2 years I didn’t, I had a used Safari van.

          I don’t like seeing trucks not used for their intended purpose but in all fairness, I don’t like seeing any vehicle not being used for their intended purpose.

          A sports car not flogged down a winding road is just as wasted as a pickup without scratches in the box.

          Freedom of choice just like free speech. I have the right to buy WTF I want and you have the right to complain about my choice.

          BUT

          If we want to look down upon vehicle owners then we should not be owning any MOTORized vehicle and be riding a bicycle or stick to public transit.

  • avatar
    Detroit-X

    In heavily populated metro areas (like DEEtroit) full size trucks are—in part–a means of safer, more tolerable commuting. Better visibility in traffic, safer when the Oakland County road-lunatics come near. They are a high-rise capsule of somewhat-solitude. The heavy duty suspension comes in handy over the MDOT road conditions (shame on them), too. That’s primary. A secondary feature is all the utility and room you have with one. A tertiary feature is a total rejection of the rounded-soap, confining, cost-compromised capsules called cars (nowadays).

    I’ll always have a full-size truck in my household. I do think the prices are nuts too, but that fits with the Big-3 execs capability, who are so incompetent in structuring their business that FST’s are the only true money-earner for them.

    • 0 avatar
      petezeiss

      I’ve been convinced for a long time now that pickup popularity is at least 50% defense against other vehicles and devastated roads. In my semi-rural environs they have become the family sedan of the remaining middle-class.

      A casual personal study of their skyrocketing popularity is easy when cruising the local neighborhoods because none of them fit in garages any more.

      • 0 avatar
        Lie2me

        ” casual personal study of their skyrocketing popularity is easy when cruising the local neighborhoods because none of them fit in garages any more.”

        That’s why smaller trucks are needed. There are a lot of Gestapo HOAs that won’t allow a truck in your driveway

      • 0 avatar
        DenverMike

        That’s another interwebs meme exclusive. Garages too small for fullsize pickups. I’m sure the truck isn’t parked in front of an empty garage. Garages are a minimum of 12 ft wide, 22 ft deep and an 8 ft wide door. Anything less isn’t up to code or from the Victorian era.

        • 0 avatar
          Lie2me

          It may be a meme, but my HOA won’t allow them and people have fought it and lost. Full size vans as well

          • 0 avatar
            DenverMike

            HOAs. Oh well, you take the good with the bad. Or you don’t live there. I won’t. There’s about a 50/50 split where I live, cars parked outs!de vs trucks. And most of the outs!de trucks are mids!ze.

            My sister lives in a city that doesn’t allow ANY outs!de parking after 10pm.

          • 0 avatar
            Lie2me

            I live smack dab in the middle of a 27 hole golf course with a killer view, yeah I’ll put up with the petty HOA

          • 0 avatar
            DenverMike

            Do you want to park ANYTHING outs!de??? Doe your insurance cover ball damage? Or do you just say it was “hail”.

          • 0 avatar
            Lie2me

            I can park anything as long as it’s not a full size P-U, Van or RV

          • 0 avatar
            Carlson Fan

            The HOA I lived in didn’t allow you to park vehicles in the driveway. But all the houses had 3 car garages that would easily swallow 2 FS crew cab PU’s or Suburbans if needed. Most were built with garages that had one 16′ door and an 8′ door. Even the smallish single stall on our house was big enough for the Tahoe.

          • 0 avatar
            Lie2me

            (wrong place)

        • 0 avatar
          Drzhivago138

          Only in America do we fill our garages with useless crap “for a rainy day” and park our $40K vehicles outside. (I say this in both jest and seriousness).

          The trick, then, is to live on an acreage, build a 30-foot garage 2-stall garage with an attic, and build a brand-new pole shed to keep your “toys” in. Said toys being old farm wagons in varying states of usefulness, along with a few vintage pull-type combine harvesters.

          • 0 avatar
            Lie2me

            Yeah, how about your own private Island, that’s even better and about as realistic

          • 0 avatar
            dal20402

            Exactly. Landfills and thrift stores, not garages, are for crap you won’t use again. Garages are to protect the second most expensive thing you’ll ever buy.

          • 0 avatar
            Drzhivago138

            It’s the (il)logical conclusion to the never-throw-anything-away mindset of the Greatest Generation and their immediate offspring. My grandfather died 2-1/2 years ago and we’ll still be throwing his crap away until 2020.

          • 0 avatar
            Dan

            “Only in America do we fill our garages with useless crap “for a rainy day” and park our $40K vehicles outside.”

            How much is that garage kept paint worth 10 years and 150,000 miles later?

            It’s not a heirloom. Use it up.

          • 0 avatar
            krhodes1

            Or just live in a place without an HOA. It would be a frosty day in hell when someone else tells me what I can and cannot do in the driveway I paid for.

            I can fit a Range Rover with a trailer in my Garag-Mahal, but my buddy with the F-150 can’t get it in the garage of his built two years ago house – it’s ~6″ too long. Codes are NOT the same everywhere, and not everywhere is wide open spaces.

          • 0 avatar
            Lie2me

            I appreciate what you’re saying, but even if I did want a pick-up it still wouldn’t fit in my garage and with winter and all I want my new vehicle in my nice cozy garage

          • 0 avatar
            RobertRyan

            @Dan,
            Not just in the US. Garages seemed to be crammed with everything except vehicles in many cases

        • 0 avatar
          dal20402

          My garage, bult in 1990 and up to code today, has a 7-foot-wide door not counting the moldings, and is about 10 feet wide edge to edge. Codes aren’t the same everywhere, and a 12-foot-wide garage would just be a waste of expensive land in a dense city where most cars are Corollas or Priuses.

          • 0 avatar
            petezeiss

            Heh.. just got back in from scampering all over my garage touching up our tire pressures and checking out the snow blower.

            Workbench, compressor, fluids cabinet, snow blower, hoses, cords, shovels, brooms, rakes, salt, sand, catch-all cabinet… lots of stuff I need easy access to that rules out trying to stuff a 19′ truck in there as well.

          • 0 avatar
            DenverMike

            I didn’t say all codes are the same everywhere. They may vary slightly, but not when it comes to garages. Show otherwise. And show where I can buy garage door just 7′ wide? Not in North America. Not at thehomedepot.com. Or Lowes. Or Orchards. Or ANYWHERES!!!

            12 ft isn’t much, when you have to leave room to exit the house in an emergency with a wheelchair on each s!de.

          • 0 avatar
            mcs

            >> And show where I can buy garage door just 7′ wide?

            The CloPay garage configuration page on the home depot web site allows a door size down to 6 feet. Wouldn’t be surprised to see them in stock since more than a few of the garages in the area were built to hold cars like curved dash Oldsmobiles and Model T’s.

          • 0 avatar
            Lie2me

            “And show where I can buy garage door just 7′ wide? Not in North America.”

            I don’t know why he said that, Home Depot alone has 200 7′ wide doors

          • 0 avatar
            DenverMike

            Yes not garage doors but “carriage doors” for Colonial Period homes. Good for Model Ts, but try getting a Rav4 in there. Not exactly the standard garage door anywhere except the historical town you live in.

          • 0 avatar
            DenverMike

            @Lie2me – When you see 8’X 7′, do you think they mean 7′ wide and 8′ tall? What about 16’X 7′? 16 ft tall???

        • 0 avatar

          It’s not really just hot air there is some truth in certain parts of the country
          http://www.smgov.net/PDFPagesHandler.ashx/191/191/uploadedFiles/Departments/PCD/Zoning/Full-Public-Draft-ZO.pdf

          http://www.f150forum.com/f38/does-ur-truck-fit-your-garage-132924/

          • 0 avatar
            ktm

            I went out and measured my two car garage door from track to track. It measured 188 inches or 15-ft 8-in. That means the door itself is probably 15-ft wide, a far cry from Denver Mike’s assertion that a single car garage door is 12-ft wide. It is a new door that was installed around 6 years ago.

      • 0 avatar
        Deathproof

        great comments!

    • 0 avatar
      Drzhivago138

      Dang it, I had a neat comment that was eaten up. It was all neat and everything too. Neat.

      • 0 avatar
        Lie2me

        Tell me I’ll post it for you ;-)

        • 0 avatar
          petezeiss

          This One Crazy Rule Will Let You Post All You Want!

          Never use s-i-d, use s*d instead. Voooodoooo!

          • 0 avatar
            highdesertcat

            If s-i-d is all that’s bugging their wordpress system.

            But some of my comments have been marked as spam, it told me so, even though there were no references to dollar amounts, name brands or anything that would constitute anyone interpreting it as being a sales pitch.

            I think there’s more to it than we know.

  • avatar
    Pch101

    The data seems to be telling us that when the price of gas goes from the low $2’s into the $3 range and above, then the truck share of the market drops about 4-5%.

    But that 4-5% decline isn’t representative of the entire truck market. That group most sensitive to higher fuel prices that bailed out was also price sensitive about the vehicle; their departure from the segment left behind the bigger spenders who will pay more for gas and for higher trim levels. The sales volumes may be down, but the margins are better than ever.

  • avatar
    TW5

    Trucks are great work/play vehicles and a symbol of American automobile manufacturing and industrial/agricultural might, but the truck segment is also directly responsible for the decline of the American middle class. Detroit is selling trucks to customers who can’t sustain the credit costs or operating costs. It reminds me of the motorcycle industry, selling Harleys and sportbikes on credit, and then expecting those customers to show up for more punishment a few years later. The automobile industry is lucky because the vehicle usually has enough value that dealers can finance customers out of harm’s way (temporarily), until rising income can bail them out, but it’s not working on a macro scale. Falling fuel prices will buy them some time, but CAFE will probably have a more positive long-term impact.

    Maybe the new 2015 Ford F-150 will change the segment, but we’ll have to wait and see. If the truck is popular and fuel-efficient, the executives won’t be able to resist baiting customers into higher MSRP and transaction prices.

    • 0 avatar
      highdesertcat

      TW5, “the truck segment is also directly responsible for the decline of the American middle class.”

      Hmmmmmmmmm, that’s news to me. To me it seems that every age group, every demographic, and members of all levels of income-stratification buy and drive pickup trucks.

      From the poorest illegal aliens in my neck of the woods to my millionaire brothers and brothers-in law, they all own a pickup truck, even if it is the ONLY vehicle they own in their household.

      The caveat has always been, “people who can’t afford it, whatever IT is, are forced to live within their means.”

      Of course that has changed since 2009 in America, with more people than ever on welfare, on food stamps and free cellphones.

      Still, plenty of jobs go unfilled in America. We still have to import people by the millions to get the jobs done.

      Sounds to me like the unemployed can’t get hired because they weren’t keepers in the first place and that’s why they got booted. Prospective employers know this so losers need not apply. That’s the real world for ya.

    • 0 avatar
      Lie2me

      @TW5, Dude, you’ve got a warped view of the world. Go out and drive your truck or pilot your helicopter, even peddle your bike, whatever makes you happy and don’t feel so guilty, life’s too short for all that baggage

      • 0 avatar
        petezeiss

        The very solidly middle-class people I know with King Stud Ermine Edition pickups don’t seem to be suffering. Maybe they just hide it well.

      • 0 avatar
        TW5

        Dude, people are financing trucks over 84 months, and the EPA finalized new CAFE rules to double fleet fuel economy.

        I understand that you prefer to pretend that nothing is happening in the truck segment other than same old same old, but some people are paying attention to what’s happening. The manufacturers are paying attention, though they may be decidedly less pessimistic about the future of their segment.

        • 0 avatar
          petezeiss

          tin foi yull

        • 0 avatar
          Lie2me

          No one is holding a gun to anyone’s head forcing them to buy a $50K truck. It’s called free will and everybody has it. Whether someone chooses to use it wisely is entirely up to them, but don’t advocate the overthrow of the American truck market because of a few people who make bad choices. It’s not fair to the responsible folks who want a truck regardless of whether they need it or not

          • 0 avatar
            petezeiss

            If I were going to go on a save-the-dummies-from-themselves campaign I’d be looking at sterilization before vehicle choice.

          • 0 avatar
            Lie2me

            Just remove their airbags, Darwin

          • 0 avatar
            petezeiss

            I guess, since they narked on my keyring thing.

          • 0 avatar
            TW5

            You’re only rationalizing your own apathy, as if apathy offers you something other than temporary blissful ignorance. I’m sure you were blissfully unaware in the late 90s, as well, so I’m assuming you wanted more CAFE regs and $4 gasoline.

            If you’re a truck owner, your problem is the suburban show-truck commuter. If you’re a gun owner, your problem is the clowns who walk into Chipotle with their AR’s strapped.

            This isn’t a matter of economic freedom. A minority of automobile owners are causing big problems for everyone, and undermining the sovereignty of the nation. The majority aren’t going to tolerate it. I’d rather have a bunch of haters shame people out of their platinum edition commuter trucks than deal with more shoddy CAFE regs.

        • 0 avatar
          highdesertcat

          TW5, you do know that pickup trucks, ALL pickup trucks, provide a profit of $8K – $10K each to the respective manufacturer, don’t you?

          I completely understand your point about the 84 months financing and the EPA/CAFE mandates, but that hasn’t deterred anyone who wants a truck, from buying a truck, as long as they can qualify for the loan OR pay for it in full.

          OTOH, I also believe that the profit for Tundra trucks is less because it costs Toyota more to make them due to the more expensive parts like 10.5″ ring gear, floating brake calipers, bigger discs, more expensive 32-valve engines, etc etc etc.

          And then there is the Titan. IMO, Nissan barely breaks even on every Titan they manage to sell but it does take a sale away from their competitors. That counts for something.

          And, finally, there’s the huge underground economy that exists in America. People who are not employed, whose incomes are so low that they don’t even have to file an income tax return each year, still manage to write a check and pay in full for a brand new truck. Happens every day, all over America.

          I think this shrinking middle class mantra is a “crock o’ sh!t.”

          People need to live within their means. If their incomes are shrinking it is because they were overpaid in the first place. If they were worth it, their employers would have given them raises, or risk losing them to other employers. Happens every day.

          That’s the real nitty gritty!

          • 0 avatar
            petezeiss

            All due respect, HDC, but it appears you’ve never seen what industry-wide off-shoring does to entire swaths of communities in a manufacturing region.

            It’s not everyone’s fault they’re on the skids.

          • 0 avatar
            highdesertcat

            petezeiss, of course I’ve seen a massive loss of jobs, like in the oil industry of New Mexico and West Texas, for instance.

            But now we’re beginning to enter the realm of politics because it was our national economic policies that favored such off-shoring.

            We, the people, voted for the government officials who led us down that path, and that makes we, the people, responsible for all the unintended consequences we now experience.

            America has no one to blame but ourselves. America always gets exactly what it deserves. Because we vote for it.

          • 0 avatar
            petezeiss

            Neither of us is ever going to change our thinking much but if I could take a weekend to show you around what’s left of the Lake Michigan rim of former manufacturing cities I think you’d see that almost nobody gets out of that with any bootstraps left.

          • 0 avatar
            Lie2me

            Hey, um, Chicago. Last time I checked it was all there, which was, let’s see… Thursday

          • 0 avatar
            petezeiss

            Oh, I’m wrong then. Sorry.

          • 0 avatar
            Lie2me

            … is ok

          • 0 avatar
            highdesertcat

            petezeiss, it’s not my thinking. It’s the reality of the world we live in.

            It’s all about the people who can. They are the ones making things happen in America, the movers and the shakers.

            Many moved away from the impoverished areas and made a new start elsewhere, like Wyoming, North and South Dakota,wherever there was work.

            The ones that cry in their beer about how bad things are in America should have voted differently, put different candidates in office, if they didn’t like the outcome of where America was heading.

            It’s more advantageous for employers to get things done cheaper elsewhere. They’re not in business to support the people they hire. Employees perform the work they are hired to do. That’s all they’re there for.

            If an employer cares about their hired help, they’ll find a way to keep them on. At the onset of the recent Great Recession, the keepers kept right on working, readily finding other jobs. The non-keepers are still on welfare, food stamps and free cellphones.

            One example: the kid who bought my F150 in 2011 when he got out of the Air Force here. Went home to West Virginia, applied for a job (I don’t remember what any more) and got hired the day after he applied.

            He was willing to do anything to provide for his family, and his wife found a job as a bank teller the following week. Didn’t pay much, but it was Money Coming In!

          • 0 avatar
            petezeiss

            Okee Doke

          • 0 avatar
            Lie2me

            I agree with HDC, if the company can’t compete they go out of business and everyone loses their jobs too. Everyone has to adapt to a changing world to survive. Standing in the middle of a dying industrial city bemoaning it’s demise accomplishes nothing

          • 0 avatar
            petezeiss

            I got my mind right now, Boss!

            No more bustin’ parkin’ meters and bitchin’ ’bout stuff.

            And I never did nothin’ queer with Scooter!

          • 0 avatar
            Lie2me

            “Oh, I’m wrong then. Sorry.”
            .

            “Okee Doke”
            .

            .
            … u mad? :(

          • 0 avatar
            petezeiss

            Gosh, no.

          • 0 avatar
            Lie2me

            ’cause I’ve got a piece of cheese and a head rub that’ll fix you right up :)

          • 0 avatar
            petezeiss

            I’m good, Coach, thanks.

            BAFO just got me all giggly with his megalomania downstream here.

          • 0 avatar
            Lie2me

            Oh, is he here?

          • 0 avatar
            TW5

            @HDC

            I know the manufacturers make good money on every truck, and people will almost pay whatever the manufacturers are willing to charge. I’m happy for their lucrative profits and what not, but I fail to see how it justifies the collateral damage. We’re not talking about a few thousand people crying in court over a class-action lawsuit. The US pickup truck segment is powerful enough to move global energy markets and currency markets.

            Arguing that US pickup truck regs and consumptive patterns are just a matter of consumptive freedom is like saying that US military actions are just an expression of the second amendment. The scope is a bit more than people are willing to admit, and if you screw it up, the negative consequences are not negligible.

          • 0 avatar
            highdesertcat

            TW5, I completely understand the thrust of your reasoning. And you are right.

            However, logic and the real world are often contradictory when it comes to the vehicles Americans buy. Sure, there are many Americans strapped for cash money who have to buy econoboxes. And they do. Or they buy used trucks.

            But the pickup truck in America finds its roots in the pioneer days of the horse and buggy that have been extrapolated from the Conestoga Covered Wagon converted into open horse-drawn freight wagons, to the motorized versions with cabs and luxo touches of today.

            The fact that pickup trucks for the vast majority of owners are wasteful and an excess of vehicular expression is immaterial (for Americans). I certainly don’t care, as long as I can afford to pay for it. Let everyone else find their own way in life. That’s the way most Americans think.

            I would not presume to try and change the mass psyche with behavioral change about anything in America. No matter what the price of gasoline, diesel, Americans will buy the biggest, most extravagant ride they can afford. When sedans went out of vogue, pickup trucks and SUVs took their place.

            In the case of pickup trucks, often the more powerful, the better in America. The manufacturers will sell every pickup truck they make, year after year. And with a profit margin like theirs on trucks, they can discount them to the break-even point just to move all that iron and create even more happy campers at the end of each model year.

          • 0 avatar
            TW5

            @ HDC

            The truck segment as we know it today was created by CAFE. Fuel-efficiency regulations rendered fullsize sedans impotent, and consumers/manufacturers were eager to exploit the light truck concessions (same for minivans). F-150 became the best selling vehicle in the US, and the industry never looked back. CAFE 2025 will only make the problem worse by virtually eliminating fullsize sedans altogether (except luxury hybrids).

            I fail to see any consumer freedom, apple pies, or pioneer wagons crossing the American West. It’s just machine politics, subpar Congressional leadership, and industrial pandering. Dodge Charger SXT already makes 23mpg, yet consumers are expected to pay several billion dollars to make pickup trucks do the same.

            The peerless stupidity of truck regulations, truck manufacturers, and US consumers becomes less entertaining with each passing day. It has nothing to do with free markets or consumer preference or anything, and the only thing it’s doing is wrecking our light-duty work trucks and our wallets.

          • 0 avatar
            highdesertcat

            TW5, I understand what you say about the EPA and CAFE and the resulting outcomes in the availability of vehicles.

            However, rest assured, the American car/truck buyer will work their way around it.

            In the past, the big sedans disappeared from the market. The American buyers bought light trucks and SUVs instead.

            If the light truck is also regulated to extinction, the American buyer will just step up and buy more industrial-grade vehicles. In the case of pickup trucks, they’ll step up from a half-ton to a 3/4-ton or 1-ton pickup truck.

            That’s what I intend to do if Toyota drops the 5.7 Tundra for CAFE reasons. I’ll step up to a Ford F250 or F350.

        • 0 avatar
          Lou_BC

          @TW5 – ” people are financing trucks over 84 months”

          and people are financing just about everything else under the same terms.

          sheesh.

          Trucks are ruining the world, well according to you they are………

          now go stroke your seal pup.

    • 0 avatar
      petezeiss

      “truck segment is also directly responsible for the decline of the American middle class”

      So I worked outside in the cold a while, took a short nap and had a dream about attending a bizzaro Marine parade and rally at a high school where they boasted about keeping the internet free. Even had a solemn little chant they performed in front of the media cameras while holding aloft banners.

      Then I wake up, check out TTAC and find reality to be even weirder.
      This is scary.

    • 0 avatar
      Lou_BC

      @TW5 – “but the truck segment is also directly responsible for the decline of the American middle class”

      I……….. um……………. am…………. dumbfounded.

      REALLY????????????

      “Detroit is selling trucks to customers who can’t sustain the credit costs or operating costs.”

      You can replace the word “Detroit” with almost any business selling expensive products and any expensive product for the word truck.

      The middle class or more specifically the middle class’s earning power and buying power has been eroded by automation, large retain chains, offshoring production, expensive health care and multiple other factors.

      This site posted a story where residents of most major cities could not afford a 32K car under traditional 20% down 48 month loan terms.

      That has nothing to do with the fact that I choose to drive around in a 22 ft long truck.

    • 0 avatar
      Lou_BC

      @TW5 – my last reply was eaten by the TTAC Bots so I will try this again.

      Pickups are NOT responsible for the decline of the middle class. If anything they are evidence that there is still some life left in the middle class.

      One can blame technological change like automation for a decline in the middle class. Offshoring jobs in manufacturing is another reason. Another reason is the fallacy that a college education will get you a good paying full time job. Some college degrees will but many others will land you a job as a Wallmart greeter. We are seeing shortages in most trades.

      There are multiple reasons why the middleclass is in a state of contracture and pickups are not the cause.

      • 0 avatar
        TW5

        You should look at median household income vs. median gasoline spending per household (% income).

        You’ll see how closely correlated (inverse) household income growth is to gasoline expenditures. It’s not a coincidence. The lower-middle class can’t hold onto their earnings when the US is bleeding 2% of GDP to pay for gasoline. Part of the reason we haven’t raised federal gasoline taxes.

  • avatar
    Big Al from Oz

    I do think what drives the pickup market are two things which are intertwined.

    Wealth and perception.

    Australia like Canada and the US have the wealth to operate larger vehicles. We are quite lucky in that respect.

    This wealth has given us not just the ability to purchase these vehicles but the capacity to support the infrastructure and environment for them to operate in.

    Fuel cost do play a role, this is directly linked to my wealth comment. As fuel costs rise the feeling of ‘less wealth’ by society rises.

    Pickups and/or utes are wealth symbols used to project an image.

    People who buy these types of vehicles don’t necessarily require them. It’s about perception.

    Wealth is what drives the US pickup market, protectionism just massages what pickups are the most attractive to buy.

    I have a pickup and love it. Do it need it? No, but I can afford to buy and operate it on decent roads.

    I do foresee the US pickup market declining as the cost vs reality tightens. They will still be popular, but what can replace them?

    It seems CUVs are quite popular and can fulfill most of what a pickup can do, or what attributes people really require from a vehicle.

    • 0 avatar
      highdesertcat

      BAFO, in America we don’t need to be wealthy to buy a pickup truck. For those who need financing, financing is available.

      It may not be a brand new truck, but those people who want a truck will find a way to buy a truck.

      We see this every day in the border lands of West Texas, NM, AZ and California. Illegal aliens show up with their freshly printed New Mexico Drivers licenses and buy trucks as their sole mode of transportation and then head off East to the Blue States that favor illegal immigration.

      Hell, officially there are more than 11 million illegals inside the US who are not H1B. Unofficially there are probably more than twice that number. They all drive, and many of them own a truck.

      I have lost count of all the used trucks I was able to turn, over the decades, by selling them to illegals in my area. And each of the buyers managed to shell out the cash money in twenty dollar bills. And I’m not the only one who did this.

      You betcha! Lots of money to be made by selling cars and trucks to illegals.

    • 0 avatar
      highdesertcat

      BAFO, in America we don’t need to be wealthy to buy a pickup truck. For those who need financing, financing is available.

      • 0 avatar
        highdesertcat

        It may not be a brand new truck, but those people who want a truck will find a way to buy a truck.

        • 0 avatar
          highdesertcat

          We see this every day in the border lands of West Texas, NM, AZ and California. Illegal aliens show up with their freshly printed New Mexico Drivers license and buy trucks as their sole mode of transportation and then head off East to the Blue States that favor illegal immigration.

          • 0 avatar
            highdesertcat

            Hell, officially there are more than 11 million illegals ins*de the US. Unofficially there are probably more than twice that number. They all drive, and many of them own a truck.

          • 0 avatar
            highdesertcat

            I have lost count of all the used trucks I was able to turn, over the decades, by selling them to illegals in my area. And each of the buyers managed to shell out the cash money in twenty dollar bills. And I’m not the only one who did this.

      • 0 avatar
        RobertRyan

        HDC,
        You do not have to wealthy here, to buy one either. They can be some of the cheapest vehicles to purchase

        • 0 avatar
          highdesertcat

          RobertRyan, I turned an old, seventies, well-used four door 1-ton Dually with a long bed for $6000. Sold it to an illegal alien Mexican who came through our area.

          It wasn’t pretty when I sold it, but the guy who bought it spiffed it up and it looked damn good when he was done.

          Everything worked on that truck, I made sure of that. And last I heard from him, he was working in a meat-cutting plant in Nebraska, with another kid on the way.

          Nirvana is where you find it.

          • 0 avatar
            RobertRyan

            Correct In South East Asia, they really flog their vehicles. They either have Huge Pigs in the back, use them as buses, take them through mud/dirt on a daily basis and rarely get them near a service station.
            Here we have had Hilux’s that have had well over 1 to 1.5 million miles and stil going

          • 0 avatar
            highdesertcat

            RobertRyan, the Mexican I sold my 1988 Silverado to cons1ders it his most-prized possession.

            When I sold it to him it had ~155K on the odo and everything that could have been replaced, had already been replaced by me.

            All except that nagging rear-wheel bearing on the driver’s s1de. He took care of that.

            Point is, where there is a will, there is a way.

            This guy doesn’t have much money and will probably keep my old Silverado going forever, replacing parts as needed, in order to have transportation. It’s the only ride he’s got for his family.

            He doesn’t punish the truck the way that SEA people punish their trucks, so I think that my old Silverado will be around longer than I will be alive.

      • 0 avatar
        Big Al from Oz

        @highdesertcat,
        Again, I’ll remind you if you want to interact in a civil fashion with me, you’ll address me as either, Big Al from Oz, Big Al or Al.

        I have given more leeway than most who don’t know how to address me. If you want to go down the path of Pch101, lie2me, DiM, etc, continue on.

        Now to your comment. America isn’t the world, to many of the uneducated it appears so.

        Countries like Australia, Canada and the US do have the WEALTH to allow our citizens the opportunity to afford these luxuries.

        Many countries don’t.

        Don’t just look at America with an isolationist approach. Look outside of your backyard.

        You’ll be amazed at the opportunities we have as countries.

      • 0 avatar
        Big Al from Oz

        @highdesertcat,
        Again, I’ll remind you if you want to interact in a civil fashion with me, you’ll address me as either, Big Al from Oz, Big Al or Al.

        I have offered you more leeway than most who don’t know how to address me. If you want to go down the path of Pch101, lie2me, DiM, etc, continue on.

        Now to your comment. America isn’t the world, to many of the uneducated it appears so.

        Countries like Australia, Canada and the US do have the WEALTH to allow our citizens the opportunity to afford these luxuries and an adequate infrastructure to operate these style of vehicle in.

        Many countries don’t.

        Don’t just look at America with an isolationist approach. Look outs!de of your backyard.

        You’ll be amazed at the opportunities we have as countries. All provided by the wealth we have as a people.

        • 0 avatar
          petezeiss

          “You will address me as MR. Plankton!”

        • 0 avatar
          highdesertcat

          Didn’t know I was being offensive, since many people address me as HDC, or Cat. Sorry! It won’t happen again.

          Now to your comment. I am fully aware that America is not the whole world. But quite frrankly, the vast majority of Americans don’t care about the rest of the world. Most Americans only worry about what goes on in their little corner of the world where they seek nirvana.

          I have to add, I don’t care about the rest of the world. I just worry about me and mine and what I can do for them to make their life the best ever. You know, like starting my kids and grandkids off with a leg up on the competition.

          Like I outlined before, even the poorest of illegal aliens in America who manage to sneak into the US seek to buy a pickup truck primarily because it is the only vehicle they can afford to own.

          Once bought they head off into the land of opportunity to seek their own fortune and nirvana. In New Mexico we help them to get out of state ASAP.

          I admire your sensitivity to the welfare of the less fortunate around the world, but quite frankly, I don’t give them a second thought, and IMO, neither do the vast majority of Americans.

          Maybe that is because MOST Americans are conditioned to the fact that there is no free lunch and that we have to fight for everything we want. In America, money is the key to everything.

          As of 2009, we don’t have to worry about working for a living in America. The administration takes from those who have and spreads America’s wealth around by giving away free money, free health care, free food stamps and free cellphones.

          Yes, even in the Great State of New Mexico. My 23-yo “unemployed” grand daughter qualifies because no one knows that my wife’s dad pays her $1000 a week in cash to do the bookkeeping for the family business.

          Of course someone has to pay for all that welfare, and that’s cool with me too, as long as it isn’t me paying for it. This is what America’s majority wanted and voted for. In America, the majority still rules.

          And oil consumption? Man, we have so much oil in America, we can’t process it all. Much of it is parked in tank cars in the desert on secondary rails, waiting for it to be marshalled to a refinery.

          So, in short, your empathy is admirable but I don’t share it, preferring instead to focus on what works for us, regardless of the rest of the world. I believe MOST Americans adhere to the same philosophy judging by pickup trucks being the best selling vehicles in America.

          • 0 avatar
            mikey

            @ HDC…I read your comment a couple of times. I find myself agreeing with most of your thoughts. Gas was 1.05 a litre yesterday {just under $4.00 USD} A huge amount of that is tax. The pick ups were lined up three deep,at Costco. The car hating socialists up here would prefer that we rode bicycle’s.

            For the most part Canadians are very similar to Americans. The cities Toronto, Vancouver, and Ottawa with their huge populations, pretty well call the shots,come election time. Even our Conservitves have to lean to the left, to get voted in.

            I built a Silverado double cab, on the GM Canada web site yesterday. $52,000. Now add 13 percent sales tax. With dealer prep and all the other charges, were looking at 61 -$62K to take it home. Over a hundred, to fill the tank. I’m not going to buy it. But that doesn’t mean I don’t want it.

          • 0 avatar
            highdesertcat

            Hey mikey, the cost of pickup trucks is set artificially high because of never-waning demand, and in order for the OEMs to make the great profits that pickup trucks provide them.

            Many OEMs are forced to offer money-losing little cars in order to lower their US CAFE ratings. The big profits on pickup trucks more than offset those.

            But contrary to what members of academia and the Jonathan Grubers of the world proclaim, people aren’t stupid. People, like electricity and water, will also follow the path of least resistance, like when big sedans were discontinued. People demanded and got 4-door pickup trucks and an even wider selection of SUVs and CUVs. as replacements for the big sedan like the Towncar, CrownVic and Mercury Grand Marquis.

            At some point in your life, you will decide that you’re mortal and that there are some things that you have aspired to all your life, like that dream Silverado you built on the GM-Canada site.

            When you reach such an epiphany, you will decide in due time what matters and what does not in your life. Like buying that dream Silverado and forsaking all else OR letting go of your dream and redirecting your focus to other things for the remainer of your time on this planet.

            I made my decision a few years back. I worked hard all my life, put my kids and grand kids through school and successfully launched them, and now it is time for Kitty and me to enjoy what time we have left.

            It truly is a great feeling once you make the decision to go for the gusto.

        • 0 avatar
          ajla

          @Big Al:
          “If you want to go down the path of Pch101, lie2me, DiM, etc, continue on.”

          I generally just ignore your posts, but are you really complaining about people calling you “BAFO” when you refer to “DenverMike” as “DiM”?

          Plus, weren’t you the same person that claimed earlier this year that DenverMike, PCH101, Hummer, and Mikey were all the same person because they all disagreed with you at the same time?

          You are likely the least respectful regular commenter on TTAC.

          • 0 avatar
            Pch101

            “I generally just ignore your posts”

            Scrolling past BAFO’s nonsense is the best policy.

          • 0 avatar
            RobertRyan

            @Den Mike
            You are a UAW Troll, that does not deviate from the party line. You were doing the same stupid things on the Aussie site.
            As I said I could not care what names you use, but what you say. This site does mention the various internal movements of the Union, so no surprise it would have Trolls as well

          • 0 avatar
            RobertRyan

            @ajla
            Big Al from Oz, got a lot of flack from Denvermike on the PUTC site, also his posts were either deleted, or multi posted . So could understand his frustrations

          • 0 avatar
            DenverMike

            @Robert Ryan – You’re making me laugh at this point… You’re here all week? Tip the veal? Try the waitress???

            I’ve never had any comments deleted from any site. Ever! I’m alway respectful and keep it clean enough. Way more than enough.

            But regardless of what you surmise is a commenter’s affiliation, take the questions or comments at face value. Or don’t answer.

            I don’t know what your major malfunction is. I don’t care either way.

          • 0 avatar
            Lie2me

            Folks, here we are day 2 of the “Big Dumb Truck” playoffs… Looks like it’s down to the Aussies against the US in a game that can best be described as a battle of technicalities. Who’s payload ratings rank? It’s anybody’s guess at this point as the fight of the “who cares” rages on…

          • 0 avatar
            Pch101

            I don’t see a contest here. The Aussies have this Big Dumb thing nailed.

          • 0 avatar
            Lie2me

            So, you’re predicting that there’s no way the Americans can come out on top and that the Big Dumb (Truck) title will remain forever down under… A stunning prediction, folks

          • 0 avatar
            Pch101

            Down on the field, the Aussie duo has a lock on the dumb offensive game, it’s no contest. What would clinch it for the Aussies is the Yank defector (name on jersey: Vulpine) joining the match: he’s a first-class, powerhouse player in the Dumb League.

          • 0 avatar
            Lie2me

            So, nothing short of a dumb ringer would clinch it for the Americans?

          • 0 avatar
            petezeiss

            Hi guys! Where do you want me?

            I brought my own pads & helmet =:-D

          • 0 avatar
            Pch101

            Come on, Pete, this isn’t kids from the neighborhood, this is the major leagues. It’s hard to play to this level unless you’re born with it.

          • 0 avatar
            Lie2me

            No, no, give the rookie from the upper-midwest a chance. I’ve seen this player in action, the guy knows how to play Dumb

          • 0 avatar
            petezeiss

            *schnurk*

            OK if I spit?

          • 0 avatar
            Lie2me

            Got a cup?… I mean to spit in

    • 0 avatar
      RobertRyan

      @Big Al from Oz,
      Being wealthy is not a reason, why they sell so many in South East Asia. I think Thailand is the Pickup Capitol of the world with half the vehicles being sold Pickups

      • 0 avatar
        Big Al from Oz

        @RobertRyan,
        Only the wealthy in Thailand and other SE Asian countries operate these vehicles. The average worker in Thailand is on around $5 000AUD a year. A Thai home is cheaper to buy.

        • 0 avatar
          RobertRyan

          @Big Al from OZ
          People who live in a 4th World State in Thailand, Phillipines,and Indonesia have a hard time scrounging food, but the moderately wealthy and Middle Classes, buy Pickups in great numbers.

          Previous posts by ” Big Al from OZ” have noted that. Seems strange that this “Big Al from Oz” does not know that?

          • 0 avatar
            Big Al from Oz

            @RobertRyan,
            What we deem as a middle class income would be a high income in the countries you mentioned. The cost of a pickup in Thailand would buy a very decent and nice home in that country.

            Roughly 50% of vehicles sold in Thailand are pickups. So, pickups are more popular there than in the US. Thailand has the world’s second largest pickup market. I would really like to see what the Chinese buy. But I can’t find any figures for pickups.

            These are sold mainly to farmers, in particular rice farmers. Rice farmers don’t buy until their subs!disation cash comes in for growing rice. Thailand is also the world largest producer of rice.

            One ton utes as we call them are the principal “truck” in Thailand. Larger trucks do have problems operating on many of the roads. If you’ve been to Thailand you will understand what I’m discussing.

            So, in effect the Thai pickup market relies on subs!sation. Odd, this sort of rings a familiar sound regarding pickups. Protection and subs!disation for their survival in the largest pickup markets.

            Without the rice farmers subs!dies the Thai pickup market would be quite smaller.

            The Thai’s actually still use pickups as a workhorse probably more so than any other country. This is to our advantage in Australia as we do get quite good pickups. If our pickups were sold in the US they would be a Class 2 vehicle.

          • 0 avatar
            Big Al from Oz

            http://blogs.wsj.com/corporate-intelligence/2014/05/09/thailand-auto-makers-bet-on-pickup-trucks/

          • 0 avatar
            Big Al from Oz

            Anti-Yingluck protesters say the rice scheme is corrupt and has helped wealthy farmers and regional politicians more than the poor.

            The Thai pickup market is reliant of a poor system of subs!disation. This is creating a huge disparity in the country.

            http://www.cnbc.com/id/101343740

          • 0 avatar
            DenverMike

            @jimmyy – Newport Beach CA is just an elitist snob festival. No way it represents the west coast. Or any coast. The millionaires I know drive luxo pickups, as daily drivers, because they really like them. And they’re not concerned with drawing attention to themselves. That’s for new millionaires, lotto winners, etc.

    • 0 avatar
      jimmyy

      “Pickups and/or utes are wealth symbols used to project an image.”

      Are you kidding? Pickups are not wealth symbols on the east coast and west coast. When you see them in areas such as Newport Beach, CA, Wellesley, MA or upper east side NYC, they are being driven by the working blue collar class. Perhaps, a pickup signifies upper blue collar worker, but definitely not upper class.

      The only exception is the wealthy horse set, but they only drive them to deal with the horses. The range is used for everything else.

  • avatar
    ravenchris

    31

  • avatar
    mikedt

    As much as I’d like a full size pickup I couldn’t stomach the $100 a week in gas that I’d burn.

  • avatar
    petezeiss

    Well, THAT was a fun day! Thanks, everyone.

    We laughed, we cried, we received a royal edict from a giant kangaroo.

  • avatar
    Lie2me

    6″ of snow, 4WD, I even have a slush wake (windrow) to plow through… Yippee!

  • avatar
    banker43

    HDC: Glad to hear you and Kitty can spend your golden years siting back admiring your accomplishments. Like how you’ve encouraged your grandchildren to become tax cheats. Hey, since you’re so proud, how about posting your granddaughter’s name so we can share the news with your local IRS office?

  • avatar
    Jeff S

    I am going to give another point of view that will cause conflict but that I am guilty of. We as Americans buy bigger houses, more stuff, and bigger trucks as we become more prosperous. We need trucks to go pickup items that we buy and then we need them to get rid of the stuff that we accumulate and no longer need. I am guilty even though I own smaller trucks which I use now to get rid of the accumulated stuff that I need to get rid of as I downsize and ready myself for retirement and a possible move to warmer climate and a smaller place with less stuff. There are many people who live in my neighborhood that have 3 car garages that park their cars outside because their garages are overflowing with stuff. It is much easier for me and more cost effective now to own an old truck to get rid of the clutter. Just another viewpoint for your consideration.

  • avatar
    Jeff S

    My comment was blocked but this is what I tried to post.

    I am going to give another point of view that will cause conflict but that I am guilty of. We as Americans buy bigger houses, more stuff, and bigger trucks as we become more prosperous. We need trucks to go pickup items that we buy and then we need them to get rid of the stuff that we accumulate and no longer need. I am guilty even though I own smaller trucks which I use now to get rid of the accumulated stuff that I need to get rid of as I downsize and ready myself for retirement and a possible move to warmer climate and a smaller place with less stuff. There are many people who live in my neighborhood that have 3 car garages that park their cars outside because their garages are overflowing with stuff. It is much easier for me and more cost effective now to own an old truck to get rid of the clutter. Just another viewpoint for your consideration.

  • avatar
    Jeff S

    TTAC has blocked my comments but I was going to present the point of view that as many of us become more prosperous we buy bigger trucks, homes, and more stuff and that we use our trucks to pickup that stuff and then get rid of it. Many 3 car garages in my neighborhood are overflowing with stuff so most have their cars, suvs, and trucks parked outside. Not being critical just an observation.

  • avatar
    Jeff S

    TTAC seems to be blocking my comments even though I am not using any profanity or criticizing anyone. Seems that TTAC is not adhering to their promise of keeping an open forum which is not surprising.

    • 0 avatar
      Lie2me

      Well there’s you mistake, criticize someone and your comments will show right up

      Hint: do not put the letters “S” “I” “D” together, should solve the problem

  • avatar
    Jeff S

    What my blocked comment was is that many Americans, including myself, as we prosper we tend to accumulate more things and buy bigger houses to store those things and the more things we buy we need a truck to get rid of these things. I am guilty of this myself in that I am getting rid of stuff to get ready for retirement in a few years. I use the truck to haul stuff away to get rid of it. Many in my neighborhood have three car garages full of stuff and park their vehicles outside. Just another view for consideration.

  • avatar
    Jeff S

    Blocked again for saying that many of us need our trucks to get rid of the stuff we accumulate. Maybe TTAC is sensitive to the advertisers. I have been using my truck to get rid of stuff to ready myself for retirement. Easier to put stuff in a truck.

    Thx Lie2me I was not aware of that.

  • avatar
    Jeff S

    Wasn’t aware of it but maybe so. It would be interesting to see a study of the amount of stuff that one accumulates in relation to the desire for a bigger house and bigger vehicle. Many in my neighborhood have 3 car garages that have vehicles parked outside because their garages are full of stuff. A truck does come in handy for hauling away unwanted stuff.

  • avatar
    Jeff S

    Guess so Lie2me. Off to haul away some more stuff (junk) to get rid of in my pickup,

  • avatar
    Lou_BC

    @Jeff S – the irony of all this is the many anti-pickup types appear to be pro-sports car but the sports car market is in a state of contracture. It is 50% of its pre-2008 self whereas pickups are climbing back to pre-2008 levels.

    There is an old “biker” saying, “If you have to ask me why I ride you won’t understand the explanation”.

    I get the impression that also applies to why many prefer pickups even though the maximum capacities are rarely ever reached.

    • 0 avatar
      Jeff S

      Very true Lou BC. I will be the first to admit that I could live without a truck in that I am not dependent on it to make a living. It comes in very handy for picking up things and hauling stuff away. That is why I made the comments above. Many of us are fortunate enough to have a life style that in most of the World would be only a dream. We have more than enough and can actually buy a large house, nice vehicles, and more stuff than we know what to do with. We do have the freedom to drive any vehicle that we can afford to drive. We also have the right to express our opinions. It is someone’s right if they don’t like a certain type of vehicle as it is someone’s right to choose a vehicle that others may not like as long as it does not jeopardize others health and safety. I think most full size trucks have grown bigger and more expensive than they should be but then if someone wants that type of truck it is their own business. My opinions are mine and I have no desire to force them on others, nor do I want others opinions forced on me. The main point is to respect others opinions and choices even if they are different than yours.

      • 0 avatar
        Lou_BC

        @Jeff S – for me a truck is a lifestyle choice. I do not see any other vehicle that can meet all of my lifestyle needs as easily as a truck. Dirt bikes, quads, 12 ft aluminum boat, camping gear, home renovation supplies, and yard clean up detritus etc. is all easily carried by my truck.
        I can buy a SUV and a trailer but pulling a trailer slows you down on rough gravel roads, deep snow or rutted muddy trails or even limits ones destinations.

        I’ve owned all classes of trucks and I have driven vans and various other vehicles. If I had deeper pockets I’d probably have a huge list of vehicles for every purpose but like most I have to make compromises and as far as I’m concerned, a pickup allows for the least amount of compromise (for me).

        • 0 avatar
          Vulpine

          @Lou_BC: For all that I don’t like modern full-sized pickup trucks, I have never disagreed with the need for pickups in general for the exact reasons you state. Usually such a pickup used in your example is obviously used for the purpose even when kept clean and polished/waxed all the time. Rare is the time that you would see said pickup without a load of one sort or another in it as it travels down the road. And like you I do agree that the “SUV & Trailer” route is more limiting than owning a truck. My only arguments to this are related to their currently bloated proportions that serve no real purpose and the simple fact that a large proportion of these bloated trucks never see a load under their first owner’s hands. They are, like a sports car, little more than a status symbol.

          This doesn’t mean that all sports cars are status symbols to everybody, but rather they are perceived as such by those who don’t understand the reason why such was purchased. My own parents considered my purchase of a Camaro back in ’96 was purely for show and refused to understand what practical purpose it could provide for me when they had been shoving me towards sedans from the very first car I owned. Now, my parents were very controlling and that first car, while purchased with my money, was flat out selected by my father for its supposed practicality and durability. Yeah. right. I had to replace the engine block within 3 months, doubling the price paid for the car originally. My point? The sedan simply wasn’t practical FOR ME. The back seat almost never got used for anything but a catch-all.

          Trucks do have their practical purpose when their owners USE them for that purpose. Sports cars have their practical purpose too–offering typically a more economical means of transportation that’s more functional for the driver that chooses one. That ’96 Camaro got me 32+ highway mpg with old-school V8 performance (many of my friends swore I had a V8 under the hood and not the 3.8l V6 from the way I drove it. I also put over 160,000 miles on it before the head gasket finally blew. I got my money’s worth out of that sports coupe.

          For me, a pickup truck is strictly a 2nd vehicle for the specific purpose of hauling things I don’t want to carry or can’t carry in my JKU Wrangler. As such, it logs less than 3,000 miles per year on average and is fraught with annoying, sometimes expensive minor repairs that still don’t add up quite enough to warrant replacing it–yet.

  • avatar
    fincar1

    Ah. I see why my post from yesterday went away. I used a word (similar to Curbs_de, as in Curbs_de Class_c)) that has those three letters in a row.

  • avatar
    RobertRyan


    Down on the field, the Aussie duo has a lock on the dumb offensive game, it’s no contest. What would clinch it for the Aussies is the Yank defector (name on jersey: Vulpine) joining the match: he’s a first-class, powerhouse player in the Dumb League.

    Now the UAW has called in its heavy hitters, we tremble with excitement for the challenge Aussies plus Yank defector against the very stupid league

    • 0 avatar
      Vulpine

      Nice to see I’m making a name for myself.

      Ever wonder why fox hunting is so popular in some parts of the country? Because the hunters like to feel like they’ve “outsmarted” an animal through the use of a pack of dogs and a gun.

  • avatar
    Quentin

    I just want to say that skimming this has been supremely amusing. I now know that acronyms are disrespectful to some people.

    • 0 avatar
      DenverMike

      @Q – No one else cares. But just don’t call BAFO BAFO. BAFO don’t take a liking to being called BAFO. But BAFO will use acronyms on everyone else. See how that works???

  • avatar
    Occam

    Well… this discussion has gone to South Park levels of hyperbole.

    I’ve owned a compact pickup in the past (which would be seen as sedan height the way cars are growing these days!), and have occasion to drive a full-size pickup on occasion. The compact truck was OK, but the fullsize ones have never been my cup of tea – they always felt ponderous and unsafe. Sudden movements (i.e. swerving) felt unsecure, and I felt that I wouldn’t be able to carry out an evasive maneuver without losing control of the vehicle. Unless I put a few hundred pounds in the bed, mine would clatter over the smallest imperfections… the bed would actually shake independently of the cab!

    Consumer reports lists vehicles maximum speed in their swerve-test. A brief sampling includes the F-150 (XLT Crew Cab) at 46.5 mph, SIlverado 1500 at 45.5, the Camry LE and CR-V at 50.5, Accord LX at 53. For comparison, a Mazda MX-5 comes in at 58 mph. Safety will always be a balance between crash survival and crash avoidance, but at least the latter puts the onus on me to spare a life, rather than just rolling the dice with physics and having someone else’s death on my conscience.

    They are incredibly useful though. I’ll let someone else drive around with $75 fillups, and gladly supply a case of Shiner Bock to move a large item that won’t fit in my car.

    The funniest part of it… tomorrow, the same voices trumpeting the joy of driving a Full-Size Pickup will be calling the Accord soulless and boring. And thus goes life on the internet.

  • avatar
    Jeff S

    @Lou BC–Most of us are limited by budget and space as to how many vehicles we can own. I have owned as many as 6 vehicles at a time and that was a chore just to keep the maintenance up and keep them running. I was down to two vehicles but when I bought the Isuzu I kept the S-10 as a beater just to haul things in. Eventually I might get down to one vehicle but if you are going to have an extra vehicle it might as well be a truck just because of their utility. The utility that a truck gives you is something that is hard to do without once you get use to owning a truck.

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