By on April 23, 2014

Marc writes:

Hi, I haven’t seen this addressed anywhere.

I have 2006 Lexus RX400H with 106,000 miles. The vehicle is bulletproof never having a repair, it even has it’s original brakes. I traded in a 2000 RX 300 for it. The 300 also never had a repair.

My question pertains to the hybrid batteries. Multiple Toyota and Lexus dealers have stated to me, that they have seen few hybrids if any needing replacement batteries yet some Prius’ have been on the road for over 10 years but there doesn’t seem to be much said about the expected life of the battery packs. My battery warranty just expired. Is it time to trade it in to avoid the eventual high battery replacement cost or am I worrying about a problem that could be many years down the road.

Sajeev asks:

Hi there. Where do you live and how many electronic items on the cat do you regularly run? (A/C, stereo, heated seat, etc.)

Marc replies:

I live in Southern California. The AC is almost always on, music always on, NAV always on.

Sajeev concludes:

The series has indeed covered hybrid battery fail, Toyotas in particular.  Your location’s warm climate shall be easy on hybrid batteries, not taxing them with a ton of power robbing heater load. Or, to a lesser extent, the A/C load of hotter parts of the country.  But your battery will fail, and there are companies willing to help.

If you want the help.

Considering the lack of needed repairs (original brakes? Impressive!) on this RX, selling it while the going is good is quite logical. If you want a new vehicle! If not, find a hybrid battery vendor, get a brake job, fluid changes, etc. that will eventually be needed.

All this work could be the straw that broke the camel’s back, yet none of it scares me like a TDI+DSG Volkswagen product that’s out of warranty.  This stuff just needs to happen.  I’d wager it’s worth it, if you like the RX and wouldn’t want to pay for a new vehicle. Which is always gonna be your call, son.

 

Send your queries to sajeev@thetruthaboutcars.com. Spare no details and ask for a speedy resolution if you’re in a hurry…but be realistic, and use your make/model specific forums instead of TTAC for more timely advice.

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73 Comments on “Piston Slap: The Straw that broke the Hybrid’s Back?...”


  • avatar
    IRollC30

    “…yet none of it scares me like a TDI+DSG Volkswagen product that’s out of warranty”

    Uh oh… I own a 2012 Golf TDI /w DSG. (Maybe I made a mistake?)

    • 0 avatar
      alsorl

      There are a few on this site that will scare the crap out you when it comes to VW’s and especially a DSG transmission. Yes there can be some issues. But I also know many people with no issues at all when it comes to a DSG trans. One friend has over 110,000 miles on a 3 y.o. GTI with no issues at all. The service is expensive I’ve heard anywhere from $250 to over $400 every 40k miles. That is probably the main complaint that causes a few to post negative things regarding the DSG. And some just hate VW and Audi products.

    • 0 avatar
      jpolicke

      Once you set yourself up with the necessary equipment – trans fill adapter, fluid fill line, VAG-COM – about $100, you can DIY the DSG maintenance for about $150. It’s a weird procedure and the fluid is expensive, but not a bad job. The dealer will charge about $400.

      This is not the scary part. The turbo and especially the DPF are the parts to worry about.

      • 0 avatar
        IRollC30

        Yeah, we have the DSG in our 2010 Passat and we’ve performed the 40K maintenance on the DSG ourselves. It was a learning experience… I think we’re comfortable doing the procedure again so that should be a problem.

    • 0 avatar
      sportyaccordy

      I have a buddy with a GTI…. like clockwork, started running like shit after 70K miles, turned out to be carbon buildup (surprise surprise)

      Imagine, 10K oil changes, lifetime timing chain, etc etc, only to need a $1500 walnut shell blasting of the intake valves every ~3-5 years. Amazing how VW can build such beautiful nice driving cars and not get something as basic as keeping their intake valves clean right

      • 0 avatar
        NeilM

        sportyaccordy writes: Amazing how VW can build such beautiful nice driving cars and not get something as basic as keeping their intake valves clean right.

        Not as basic as you’d think. Carbureted and indirect fuel injected engines bathe the intake valves in fuel vapour, both cooling and cleaning them. Since newer engine designs are moving to direct fuel injection for efficiency reasons this is no longer the case. The result can be carbon build-up on the valves, and it isn’t just a VW problem.

        • 0 avatar
          dantes_inferno

          >Since newer engine designs are moving to direct fuel injection for efficiency reasons this is no longer the case. The result can be carbon build-up on the valves, and it isn’t just a VW problem.

          VW and Toyota solved the problem by the incorporation of port AND direct injection (in VW’s case it is available in their EA888 engine family – the new 1.8T and 2.0T).

    • 0 avatar
      bball40dtw

      You didn’t necessarily make a mistake. Just be prepared for more costs than the average car owner. Set aside $400-$1200, depending on your area, for service every 40K miles (DSG and regular service). That is dealer pricing, but they tend to be competitive with many indy shops. Before anyone jumps all over my pricing, last time Sajeev posted an article that went to the DSG Zone, I posted rates that I verified with VW dealers in two states. I did all the service myself when I owned a GTI/R32/Jetta Wolfsburg. The only time I didn’t when the mechatronic unit was recalled. God forbid that fails out of warranty. I’ve seen pricing anywhere from $2500-$4000.

      • 0 avatar
        olddavid

        Do you guys mean to tell me that good old water through the vacuum booster hose will not clear carbon on a direct injection VW? If not, why? Or is it just a profit center kept alive by dealer propaganda? It’s been working since my Father started doing it and he was born in 1916. He is long gone now, but I did it in my Sister’s Jaguar (a 2004 S) with good results.

        • 0 avatar
          danio3834

          Gasoline is a far better solvent than water. Water can be used to clean combustion chambers due to the high pressures in that area. On the low pressure back-side of the valves, I have my doubts as to its effectiveness.

    • 0 avatar
      mnm4ever

      The DSG service isn’t $400, its $260-280, and the fluid alone is $150 or so, so basically its $100-150 in labor. Can you do it yourself? Sure. But why bother? Its complicated and if you mess it up you could possibly ruin a $3-4k transmission. Everything else on the car is pretty much DIY, I do all the maintenance on my GTI, except the DSG. Look around for coupons, and pay them $150 every 2-3 yrs to do it.

      Did you make a mistake? That depends on how long you plan to keep it. I LOVE my GTI, its a great car that does many things well, and the DSG is a marvel of technology. But I am selling it and I wouldn’t buy another VW, and even if I did it wouldn’t be a DSG. Nothing catastrophic has happened to my car, but enough annoying small problems have happened that it makes me lose confidence that the car will be a good long term vehicle to own. Its a 100k car, after that then the risk of having a very expensive repair goes up, way up. And the resale value goes down, way down. It will be worth $5-8k and essentially unsellable, like most of the MkIV VWs you see. If you love the car then enjoy it but trade it in after 3 yrs or so, while it still holds decent value. If you get another one consider leasing it.

      My Honda CRV just passed 222222 miles (I took a picture of the odo) and I treated it to new headlights, along with fixing the broken door lock actuator and power window regulator. All total I spent $140 and a few hours in the garage. No way my VW would run that long without costing a LOT more in repairs.

    • 0 avatar
      walt501

      My son owns a 2009 VW Rabbit, similar to your Golf but without the diesel engine. The car was great…..up to 60,000 miles. Now at 89,000 miles the VW dealer says it needs yet another auxiliary cooling fan (third one), new heater motor and a CVT boot replaced all to the tune of $1500, and these aren’t the first repairs this vehicle has required. My advice would be if you plan on keeping the vehicle beyond 60,000 miles that you purchase an extended warranty – right away.

      • 0 avatar
        ajla

        Why is he taking an out of warranty Volkswagen to the dealer?

        I’ve worked on MKV Golfs (I’d assume the MKVI is similar) and $1500 for a cooling fan, blower motor, and CV boot is a ridiculous rip off. Not to mention replacing the same part three times and charging the customer for it every time.

  • avatar
    bumpy ii

    The battery pack on Toyota HSD setups is generally a non-issue. The battery pack lives an easy life, not subject to deep discharges or frequent fast charging. Yes, stuff can happen and a cell can take a dump. If I had to hazard a guess, a replacement pack might run around $2,000 today, with the cost likely to decrease in the future.

    • 0 avatar
      Luke42

      Prius owner here.

      The battery costs about the same as an automatic transmission and lasts just as long (the Prius hacker community’s best guess is 250k miles), but can be replaced by a single person.

      The 2004+ have had fantastic battery life and reliability. 2004 doesn’t seem like that long ago, but its been 10 years and the Prius hacker community just doesn’t have enough battery failures to definitively establish the lifetime of the batteries.

      The 2001-2003 Prii had battery problems. The initial under-engineered batch has been mostly replaced by now.

      I wouldn’t worry about the traction battery in the OP’s car, unless he’s been swapping in parts from a 12 year old 1st gen Prius. Lots of other stuff is going to break before the battery pack. On the Prius, we’ve had to replace a wheel bearing over 10 years of ownership, plus the nav system (under warranty) and a filler neck. The nav system probably would have cost us as much as the battery. I wouldn’t worry about the car’s overall health until that sort of thing starts to fail.

    • 0 avatar
      tuffjuff

      @bumpy ii

      +1

      Everything I’ve read suggests you can easily get several hundred thousand miles out of Toyota’s hybrid packs. And to think, 8-10 years ago we all thought you’d be lucky to break 100k.

      A friend with a last-gen Prius with ~150k on the odometer has had no issues, and efficiency doesn’t seem to have been impacted with battery wear, either.

  • avatar
    dwford

    The age of the battery pack and the potential replacement cost will definitely be a consideration to either a dealer taking it as a trade or for a potential buyer. Time to either dump it now or keep it until the bitter end.

    • 0 avatar
      alsorl

      Ditto

      • 0 avatar
        Luke42

        Would you guys dump a car with a perfectly functioning automatic transmission over the possibility that it might-maybe fail one day?

        Lots of people do every day, so there’s nothing wrong with selling a perfectly good car to someone less risk averse…. But I would like to put that decision into the proper context: The 2004+ HSD batteries are at least as reliable as an automatic transmission, last just as long, and are easier to replace/overhaul. So, comparing a gearbox to a traction battery is a roughly equivalent question, from an engineering-economics perapective.

  • avatar

    I had a customer recently whose daughter had recently totaled a prius with well over 200k and they had never replaced batteries. I feel it’s one of those things though, some could fail much earlier and lead to an early death to the otherwise good car. Ties into the cost of ownership post yesterday really…

  • avatar
    28-Cars-Later

    106K is not bad but not blowing my socks off for a high quality and expensive product like a Lexus.

    • 0 avatar
      bball40dtw

      I’m sure it will go much farther than that. I wouldn’t worry about the battery pack at all. My expectation for my C-Max is 200K+ on its batteries.

  • avatar
    Nicholas Weaver

    Toyota’s system is incredibly kind on the NiMH (Nickel Metal Hydride) pack. NiMH may be lower energy density than LiIon (Lithium Ion), but they are more robust right from the start. And by the Gen2 Prius and your RX hybrid, Toyota nailed the battery pack’s thermal management.

    My parents Gen2 Prius has 150k+ miles on it with no problem, and I’d expect other things to start wearing out first.

    And its not like battery replacement is that expensive either. MSRP for factory new, genuine Toyota Gen2 Prius batteries is $2600, while reconditioned packs out of junked cars are vastly cheaper (and the labor for the swap is very low, far less than say a grenaded transmission on many other vehicles).

    If you like the RX, keep it. If you want to get a new car, get a new car. But the RX’s battery now being out of warrantee shouldn’t be the reason for your decision.

  • avatar
    200Series

    106k, original brakes, and no repairs on a 8-year old vehicle, and that does not impress you? Which if any of your 28 cars post a similar resume?

    • 0 avatar
      jmo

      +1

      I think this also ties into the discussion yesterday about people fixing their own cars. If you bought a car and it sailed past 100k miles over 8 years without a single problem – when would you ever have a chance to learn to fix something?

      Think of the new Accord Hybrid with its single speed transmission, you don’t even have the chance to replace the brake pads.

    • 0 avatar
      charleysheen

      I do not know what is so special about this . Most modern cars manage this. I have a 2008 Nissan murano with 103000 miles on it with not a single repair,my wife’s ford fusion has not had any repairs in 86000 miles. I oversee a fleet of cars that our salesmen use and they are a combination of Nissan altimas and ford fusions and they are treated very harshly but apart from having to replace brake pads they have had no problems -we generally sell thaem at 75000 miles but are now keeping them longer.

      • 0 avatar
        mkirk

        Agreed. My wife’s base Hyundai has gotten brake pads in 90k. That’s it. My old Bronco II wins the brake shootout though. 120k ish on the front pads and the rear shoes were still original at 300k+. It was a stick though so the downshifting was the likely culprit.

    • 0 avatar
      mnm4ever

      I don’t think he was really bragging on the car getting to 106k without repairs. Just giving us the facts, as in: “this car has 106k miles and has not had a history of needing any repairs. So should I trust the battery pack in the future.”

      You all are reading too much into it.

  • avatar
    danio3834

    Original brakes lasting for most of the life of a Hybrid vehicle isn’t uncommon at all. Because regenerative braking does so much of the work when slowing down, the friction brakes often see very little use. They’re more likely to be replaced due to corrosion from lack of use on a hybrid than for wear.

    • 0 avatar
      Featherston

      If I’m recalling a Smoking Tire review correctly, the Cadillac ELR has a steering wheel paddle that, in effect, is a hand brake that engages only the regenerative brakes. Kind of a neat feature.

  • avatar
    grzydj

    Let’s back up a minute here shall we? Why are these dealers going out of their way to tell you about the potential doom of your hybrids battery pack? Are they trying to sell you an extended warranty?

    If not, then they’re probably trying to get you to trade your vehicle in on a newer one so you don’t have to worry about a potential battery pack replacement, which by all accounts isn’t very expensive to replace.

    I wouldn’t worry about it.

    • 0 avatar
      gtrslngr

      If you would bother to do the research etc you’d know there is in fact a hell of a lot to be worried about

      • 0 avatar
        Nicholas Weaver

        If you do the research rather than listening to silly hybrid scare-mongering, you’d know there is nothing to worry about. The Gen2 prius and beyond battery pack has proven to be rock solid: the slightly controversial use of NiMH batteries has paid dividends in reliability: Those batteries are tough.

        And, like transmissions, there are rebuilt ones available if it DOES fail: If the battery does fail, sometimes its a single-cell failure and that can be replaced by a refurbisher. So there are refurbishers who buy junkyard batteries, recondition them, and sell them just like there are for transmissions. So in the unlikely event that there is a failure, you buy a refurbished battery, have it shipped to your local shop, and they swap it out.

  • avatar
    C. Alan

    Marc,
    Before you bail on the Lexus, you may want to go to your dealership, and have them confirm your battery warranty. If you purchased your car in California, the battery may be covered for 10 year or 150k miles. If I recall correctly, California required this battery warranty starting sometime around 2006.

    I receintly sold my ’11 Prius in Texas, and because I purchased the car in California, the battery warranty was still in effect, even at 80k miles.

  • avatar
    gtrslngr

    #1 – Your RX does not use Li batteries : using the standard acid based instead which especially in your climate bodes well for battery life

    ( Mr Mehta seems to be ignorant to the fact that temperatures above 80f can and will diminish Li battery life as quickly if not even quicker than the cold can )

    #2 There is in fact a long and sordid history of Prius battery failure and replacement which both Mr Mehta as well as your Lexus dealership seem to be completely ignorant of [ with the distinct possibility of the Lexus dealer lying ]

    #3 I for one will contest your ludicrous claim that neither of your RX’s have suffered any mechanical failures in over 100,000 miles of driving . To put it plainly .. you are exaggerating : no doubt for the sake of drama IMO . My guess is you are also the kind of Hybrid owner that makes even more ludicrous claims as to your mpg as well . No insult intended . Just telling it like it is . Mainly because you are not !

    #4 At the mileage etc you are at with a Hybrid [ of any brand ] the batteries though on their way out [ leading to one seriously expensive repair bill ] are the least of your maintenance woes / worries . The even more expensive viper waiting to bite you on the ____ are all the electronics etc needed to make that very pretentious Hybrid system work that guaranteed are about to go into failure mode

    #5 Toyota/Lexus DOES in fact make claim as to expected battery life in their Hybrids [ yet another bit of ignorance from Mr Mehta and your Lexus dealer ] Ten years considered to be the absolute maximum life expectancy … with five being the expected average [ What ? You thought the battery guarantee was out of Toyota/Lexus good graces ? ]

    So … in conclusion … and in direct conflict with an entire bevy of opinionated commenters as well as the author here who in fact have neither done their homework when it comes to the realities of Hybrids and especially Toyota /Lexus hybrids nor are aware of the facts ….

    SELL !

    • 0 avatar
      jmo

      http://www.nimh.nih.gov/index.shtml

    • 0 avatar
      SaturnV

      I’d love to see the data for your point (2), above. My research so far indicates exactly the opposite (see, for example, TrueDelta data on Prius repair frequency) – the incidence of battery failure is low.

      Also, for your point (3), I got 136k out of a 2002 VW Passat with only the following ‘failures:’ 2 light bulbs replaced, and one oil pan (that I scraped to the point of leaking while traversing the world’s worst speed hump). For a Lexus, with far better reliability figures than VW, to have no mechanical faults in 100k is not only not surprising, but basically expected in my mind.

      -S5

    • 0 avatar
      ttacgreg

      Your point number one is nonsense. I cannot even infer what point your are trying to logically construct.
      I get that you have some sort of grudge against Toyota, hybrids, batteries, or all three.
      With all due respect, my best guess is that you are trolling.

    • 0 avatar
      aristurtle

      The electrolyte in a NiMH battery is alkaline, not acid, you cretin.

      Everything else you wrote is also wrong.

    • 0 avatar
      WaftableTorque

      Honestly gtr, to be proven wrong so often on so many conjectures since you first popped up, has it ever occurred to you that perhaps someone has descended to the bottom wrung of the blogging inferno, the contributing non-contributor?

    • 0 avatar
      mcs

      @gtrslngr

      So Thom/gtrslngr, how’s the warranty doing on that GLK350 of yours? Let’s see how much it costs to get that puppy to 100k miles.

    • 0 avatar
      Kyree S. Williams

      But for you and your comments, it would seem that everyone else here is mature enough to recognize and follow the unspoken rule that if you’re trying to make a point, you shouldn’t be rude and sarcastic about it.

    • 0 avatar
      PandaBear

      I think I believe the RX has no mechanical problem during the 100k miles way more than the way you describe how good MBZ is.

      And even at 100k, the RX is likely going to give the owner way less headache than a new MBZ, statistically speaking.

    • 0 avatar
      DrGastro997

      Most of your so called facts are completely moronic. State facts, not anecdotal nonsense.

    • 0 avatar
      kingofgix

      @gtr

      Congratulations! That is the single most misinformed, biased, condescending and laughably incorrect post in the history of TTAC.

  • avatar
    Battles

    There MUST be a specialist somewhere who has done the full on, all batteries dead, worst case scenario reaplacement job and can tell you what it’ll cost.

    There are two really good Toyota/Lexus HSD specialists in London alone (and probably quite a few shitty ones too).

    Places like that, while commercial ventures that need to make money, are generally enthusiast driven and will happily tell you what might go wrong, how to test for it and how to avoid it.

  • avatar
    Master Baiter

    Since a hybrid’s battery is only used to recover braking energy and give some of it back on acceleration, it’s capacity can degrade considerably without affecting basic vehicle operation. I wouldn’t worry about it.

  • avatar
    ttacgreg

    A pertinent read . . .
    http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/2011/02/the-200-000-mile-question-how-does-the-toyota-prius-hold-up/index.htm

    That said, my nephew had one of the Civic hybrids that is well known for its battery problems. Hondo left him feeling betrayed by their installing a performance crippling software update that succeeded in extending the battery life just beyond its warranty before it failed. He now drives a Subaru.

    YMMV

  • avatar
    johnhowington

    since you bought such an expensive vehicle, just know that since your battery didnt fail you won the silent bet that every person made who bought a regular gas vehicle.

    on the other hand, you bought a very expensive lexus suv, and are enjoying the huge depreciation hit and lack of ROI on said hybrid drivetrain.

    try not to think about that at night as those dollars were set on fire.

  • avatar

    Consumer Reports did some study about hybrid batteries–I think they indicated that the battery they tested in a 10 year old Prius was still operating at 80% of capacity.

    The misconception is that when the battery fails, it will leave you stranded. Not true. You will see a decline in performance/fuel economy, and you’ll have to decide if it’s worth it to replace the battery, trade the car, or just live with it.

    • 0 avatar
      Kyree S. Williams

      Well, if the battery simply wanes into uselessness, then yes, it might just become less-efficient. But if there’s damage to the battery pack and it fails (like accident damage or something), the car will probably initiate a no-start mode or run itself at reduced capacity.

      • 0 avatar
        Luke42

        The battery in the Prius doesn’t just fade to uselessness. The battery management computer (which keeps the charge balanced across all of the battery cells within the pack) will throw a check engine light before that happens.

        When an individual cell fails, the code will even tell you wehich string it’s on, so you can trundle out tho the garage, open the pack, and swap the cell (or a group of 4, depending on your personal risk tolerance and cheapness).

        Of course, you have to have a clue about electrical safety to do this, but it’s well within the skills of asnyone who has poked around inside an old CRT TV/monitor and lived to talk about it. Most people should hire a pro, I guess, but servicing Toyota HSD batteries isn’t a mystery.

  • avatar
    tomm

    I have a 2007 RX 400h with 85k miles. The battery pack was recently replaced (under warranty) but for an unusual situation – due to a defect in a body seam at the rear hatch, water leaked into the area that contains the battery pack, apparently causing damage to the batteries. The dealer indicated that this is the first RX400h battery pack that they’ve ever had to replace. Other than this major problem, I’ve not had a single issue with this car.

    I plan to keep this car and drive it for several more years because it is a comfortable, very functional, nice vehicle thats paid for. However, I’m not sure I will buy another hybrid for 2 reasons:
    1. The gas mileage varies significantly with the type of driving done. My daily commute is in heavy traffic, ideal for a hybrid, and I average about 27 mpg overall in the summer, 24 in the winter. However, the car only gets 25 mpg in steady highway driving so not great on trips.
    2. The complexity of this car worries me as it gets older (more so than battery life). If anything goes wrong with the hybrid system, the car won’t start, as I found out with the problem above even though it was running perfectly when the “check hybrid system” light came on (it was only after I shut it off that it then wouldn’t start and had to be towed to dealer). A major repair to the hybrid system could easily wipe out years of gas savings.

  • avatar
    css28

    A couple of corrections:

    Toyota hybrids do not use the battery for heat.

    Assuming the Lexus’ battery is air cooled (like in their other hybrids) a warm climate is not its friend. The good news is that the OP cranks the air conditioning, which will help cool the battery when it’s hot.

    • 0 avatar
      ttacgreg

      So that would explain why the battery cooling air intake is located in the interior of the vehicle! I get it. Fascinating. I also know that if the battery nears overheating, the system stops burdening the battery to avoid damage. The vehicle performance apparently suffers noticeably until the obstruction to the air intake is removed.

  • avatar
    salguod

    If you’re looking for a reason to get a new car, you’ll find it in some of the opinions here.

    If you want facts, however, check out True Delta, CR and the enthusiast forums. I can’t comment on the RC400h specifically, but I can comment on the Prius as I just bought a gen 2 with 112K and it’s original battery. The Prius is near or at the tops of both CR & TD’s surveys and battery replacements under 200K are fairly rare on priuschat.com. In fact, there are many 200K+ and 300K+ owners on their original batteries. Additionally, re-manufactured replacements are fairly affordable and used batteries can be had for the $500 range (plus installation).

    Despite what some here have said, Toyota hybrid batteries have a established track record of longevity and durability. No need to worry.

  • avatar
    questionfear

    For what it’s worth, I have a 2008 Prius with about 96k miles on it, and I’ve wondered the same thing (re: battery life and warranty.) After doing the research I decided to roll the dice and keep the car, because the battery is still going strong and the car’s been good to me so far (fingers crossed I don’t jinx that).

    Aside from regular oil changes, I’ve had three expenses with this car:

    -Auxiliary battery was dying and had to be replaced ($299)
    -Brakes were rusted and worn (don’t remember the exact cost, probably a couple hundred, because that repair was rolled into my last major expense with the car…)
    -Tires. Tires are the bane of my existence. I do not understand why or how a car like the Prius chews through tires at the rate of one full set per year (roughly-some years the tires survived, while other years I had a slew of flats driving up the average). Some of that was definitely the rough NJ roads busting my tires, but some of that was just mystery flats and wear and tear. Once I blew a hole in a tire randomly just driving down the road. I hate tires.

    Then again, it’s still better than my old Altima-I got in it one night and went to start it, and the battery exploded. I spent a good 30 seconds wondering if I’d pissed off a mobster.

    • 0 avatar
      Kyree S. Williams

      “Then again, it’s still better than my old Altima-I got in it one night and went to start it, and the battery exploded.”

      Wow! I probably would have needed a new set of pants after that.


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