By on May 3, 2010


Andy writes:

TTAC: I have a question. My fiancée owns a 2008 Audi A4 2.0T with just under 15,000 miles on it. Tonight, the low oil indicator light came. So I said I’d get it checked out tomorrow. But before doing that, I figured I’d do a quick search to search about other A4 owners having oil issues. Turns out, they are. Both on topix.com and facebook.com, there are posts regarding the 2008 A4 2.0T burning a unexpected amount of oil and essentially Audi dealership and corporate claiming this is normal for turbo engines.

What do you guys think? Have you heard of this?

Sajeev Answers:

It’s amazing how we’ve regressed back to a world where this level of oil consumption is an acceptable manufacturing practice. What’s next, hand crank starters?

But consider yourself lucky this Audi isn’t a V-10 powered BMW M5 or M6.  The one I tested ate a quart of oil every 3000 miles.  And that’s perfectly acceptable to the folks working behind the BMW badge, too.

You didn’t give me all the information, so let’s make some assumptions. The Internet says Audi has 10,000 mile oil change intervals, starting after the first change at 5000 miles.  If this regiment is followed, your fiancée’s car is burning a quart (probably) of oil every 10,000 miles.  Which is disappointing, but not terribly surprising. The AudiWorld forum agrees.

And if you’re still upset, just remember how much more oil (and gas @12mpg) the BMW M5/M6 burns.  So, consider yourself lucky. And perhaps you and your soon-to-be-wife might consider running the hell away from this car when the warranty expires. Relative to other makes, European cars are just too expensive to service as they age. It’s downhill from here, dude.

(Send your queries to mehta@ttac.com)

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109 Comments on “Piston Slap: Being Cool with Burning Oil...”


  • avatar
    Amendment X

    When are people going to stop buying overpriced, overengineered, overhyped, overrated German Garbage?

    • 0 avatar
      jmo

      What do you drive?

    • 0 avatar
      Amendment X

      I drive a car that is neither overpriced nor overengineered nor overhyped nor overrated: A Honda.

      Everybody says German cars are the best. Maybe in terms of pure driving dynamics, but as a depreciating asset its among the worst you can buy.

    • 0 avatar
      jmo

      So, boring transportation appliance – got it.

    • 0 avatar
      Amendment X

      LMAO… yeah an S2000 is as boring as possible right? What is your ride of choice?

    • 0 avatar
      littlehulkster

      You’ll have to excuse the German car fans. Deep down they know that their cars are unreliable turds that weigh more than a Panther tank, have increasingly numb dynamics (To mask that fat, of course) and are hideously overpriced, but they don’t want to admit it because that little badge makes them feel superior.

      But hey, I’m sure that nice interior eases the pain when you find out your top dollar German car is broken again. I’d rather have Russian engineering than German engineering these days.

    • 0 avatar
      jmo

      yeah an S2000

      Suuuure…

      neither overpriced nor overengineered

      I know you’re lying because everyone would agree than an S2000 with a 237 HP ( 177 kW) @ 7,800 rpm; 162 ft lb of torque ( 220 Nm) @ 6,800 rpm engine and an MSRP of 34,995 is both overpriced and over-engineered.

    • 0 avatar
      littlehulkster

      If you want to play the numbers game, kiddo, it’s best you don’t do it as a fan of German steel, because that argument is coming right back in your face.

    • 0 avatar
      helius

      I really hate to tell you this, but as a fellow S2000 owner, Honda has told me that it’s normal for my 2003 S2k to consume about 1 quart of oil every oil change (3000-3500 miles). This was back when the car was a little over 4 years old and with just under 60k miles on the odometer when I finally got them to do an oil consumption test. The engine has no doubt been burning oil much earlier on in its life, but the instrument panel first complained about low oil well before the car hit 50k.

      The frequency of oil burning may indeed be lower with Hondas/Toyotas/etc compared to the German makes, but it still happens. And when it happens, you’d get the same reply.

    • 0 avatar
      mpresley

      When are people going to stop buying overpriced, overengineered, overhyped, overrated German Garbage?

      Not sure about the garbage part, but I’d likely consider a Japanese car if they were to abandon the Jet Jaguar school of automotive design and fire all those moon-lighting JVC boom-box engineers who design center consoles (“Remember, Yumiko, American guy like front of car to look like goofy fish with big smile, and plenty of flashing lights and buttons to play with!”). It also might help if they could demonstrate an ability to engineer and produce a family sedan with a bit of driving character.

    • 0 avatar
      rgil627il

      foad

  • avatar
    Disaster

    Many auto manufacturer’s have been playing CYA on the oil consumption issue for a while, because they know they isn’t an easy fix short of replacing the entire engine. When I worked for an auto company I recall them saying oil usage wasn’t a warrantable item, unless it was over 1 guart per 1500 miles. This was dissapointing because besides being bad for the environment, all that blowby oil isn’t great for other components like the valves and catalytic converter.

  • avatar
    ExPatBrit

    The 10,000 mile intervals are a crock if you ask me. Just a gimmick to lower the cost of ownership on JD Power.

    I do 5000 mile synthetic oil and filter on both our current Audis. (we have had three) Never had an engine or turbo failure in many many miles of driving.

    If you can DIY, get yourself a VAG.com , Bentley manual and join a online forum.

    Otherwise I agree with Sajeev, unless you have very deep pockets, sell it before the warranty expires.

    • 0 avatar
      Bancho

      I fully endorse this comment by ExPatBrit.

    • 0 avatar
      hreardon

      +1, ExPatBrit, you’re absolutely correct.

      The 10,000 mile change is akin to the 100,000 mile “tuneup” that was introduced as a way to reduce the Total Cost of Ownership numbers in the relentless pursuit to hit Consumer Reports and Edmunds numbers.

      I have a 2.0T based Audi as well, and per my very very trusted independent mechanic (who does not change my car’s oil – I do it myself): “I wouldn’t go more than 5,000 miles between changes, regardless what Audi says, especially if you intend to keep the car for any extended period of time.”

    • 0 avatar
      john.fritz

      My recipe:

      Filter + 1 quart M1 at 4K,
      Filter + 5 quarts M1 at 8K,
      Begin again.

  • avatar
    bryanska

    My wife’s 2002 Golf burned oil, but I thought that was because the engine design dated back to the 70’s or something. You’re telling me the new 2.0 turbo, hailed as a great powerplant, STILL can’t match what GM has been able to do since the 1980s?

  • avatar
    lilpoindexter

    I’m pretty sure these oil burners will only burn more and more oil as they age…how will they pass smog check in places like california?

  • avatar
    brapoza

    My wife’s Legacy GT doesn’t burn any oil so far at 26K miles.

  • avatar
    rmwill

    Its a VW… Are we surprised?

    @brad Put a few miles (75K) on and check back. Subarus are one of the few 100K mile engines left on the market, sharing the distiction with the RX8.

    • 0 avatar
      littlehulkster

      I don’t think you have any idea what you’re talking about. Subaru has been consistently rated among the top for reliability in surveys, and I’ve personally owned 4 with well over 100K. My old EJ18 powered Impreza coupe did leak a little oil, but at 346K miles, I think that’s acceptable. The rest of them had EJ22s and were fine.

      I’d still have my 97 Impreza if it was not t-boned by a drunken sorority sister at the long before it’s time (120K miles)

    • 0 avatar
      rmwill

      Until you have rebuilt a Subaru boxer motor, which I have twice, you are just posturing. The fanboy propoganda aside, they are pretty poor designs that are not long lived.

    • 0 avatar
      littlehulkster

      I’ve rebuilt my Legacy’s motor, actually. Not because it was broken, but because I am an insane and totally irrational man who wants to get 450HP out of a 4 door family sedan and so tougher parts were necessary.

      It wasn’t bad, and it’s a much better design than anything Mitsubishi has shat out. The design makes most basic maintenance (Except spark plugs) incredibly easy, and the boxer has lots of inherent design advantages.

      In terms of reliability, the statistics back me up and show you’re the one doing fanboy posturing. Subaru isn’t #1 for reliability, but they haven’t fallen out of the top 5 for a very long time. Even the incredibly anal TUV can back that up.

    • 0 avatar
      rmwill

      Being better than a Mitsubishi is like being top of the reform school class. Both are examples of Japanese cars that have few of the postive Japanese qualities that Honda, Toyota and Nissan exemplify.

      I am not sure what survey you are talking about, but the boxer is an inferior design that makes service difficult. Doubly bad when they need service so often.

      The two I wrenched on were STI’s that were pretty babied poser cars that were maintained by the book. The first one lost compression on number 3 at 115k and the other started burning a quart every 500 miles at 88k.

      They took about 50% longer to fix than a conventional design. Sorry, but that is the truth.

  • avatar
    PartsUnknown

    Timely discussion. My close friend drives an ’07 S4 with the 4.2 V8. His car burns – wait for it – a quart every 100 miles, no joke. He carries a case of Mobil 1 in his trunk at all times. 67,000 miles, synthetic oil/filter changes every 5K. Loves the car anyway. He’s trading it for an RS4. He’s addicted to the power. To each his own.

    Would add that my dear, departed Saab 9000 with the B234 light pressure turbo four, burned zero – that’s a zero with three zeros – oil when I last saw it with 125,000 miles.

    • 0 avatar
      baabthesaab

      And my dear departed ’01 SAAB 9-5 wagon with the same light-pressure-turbo engine also burned no oil at all when I sold it at 210,000 miles.

      Oil and filter changed every 5k miles.

    • 0 avatar
      snabster

      SAABs don’t burn oil, they SEEP oil.

      Let me see: valve cover gasket, head gasket, oil pressure switch, oil plan and oil cooler…..

    • 0 avatar
      PartsUnknown

      I don’t know. My two 9000s, two 9-5s and one OG9-3 would beg to differ. All dry.

      Electricals were another matter, esp. the 9000s. My wallet seeped money.

    • 0 avatar
      baabthesaab

      My 900, 9-3, and two 9-5’s have all been dry enough that there was never anything obvious to wipe up.
      Again, new oil and filter every 5k no matter what the manual says.

  • avatar

    In total agreement regarding new German iron, but I disagree on their older stuff. Any BMW with M10, M20, or M30 power is likely still kicking it decades later.

  • avatar

    My VW GTI with the 2.0T uses a quart every 1,200 miles or so. I’d be thrilled with a quart every 10,000 miles. VW says the cutoff point is a quart per 1,000 miles.

    • 0 avatar

      I brought up this same issue in a previous Piston Slap: http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/piston-slap-how-do-i-warranty-thee-let-me-count-the-ways%E2%80%A6/ Like the S4 owner who’s using one quart per hundred miles, I really like the car. But, the oil usage worries me. So, I’m still on the fence if I should sell it before the warranty expires or shell out a couple grand for the VW extended warranty. But I will not own the car w/o a warranty.

      • 0 avatar
        frizzlefry

        Yeah my extended warranty expires this summer. I would be hesitant about owning it out of warranty but
        a) My old man has a 2000 2.7T A6, no problems with it
        b) People do say the trubos can blow but Audi addressed that with larger oil lines to the turbos in 2003-2004 models so thats not an issue, plus there are 2000 2.7T models with 300,000kms and no blown turbos
        c) I could sell it for about 19,000 CAN but that cash will not get me into anything close to a sedan that can hit 100km/h in 6 seconds flat. Even for 35 grand it would be hard to get a car thats even close to my A6.

        I guess I will keep it and hope for the best. Throwing a couple grand at, if I need to, is cool by me because as I said…its a wicked car and selling it won’t get me into anything close unless I throw a lot more than a couple grand onto the sale value to get something else.

        • 0 avatar
          Jack Denver

          I think you’re right. Yes, these cars are a little more expensive to keep on the road than the average Honda. But even if you put $1 or $2K per year into keeping them on the road, that’s cheaper than shelling out $35K+ for a new car. The “sell before the warranty runs out” people are just wrong – the future ownership costs are already reflected in the resale price, so you’re gonna take the hit for that no matter what. That’s what you signed up for when you bought the thing. Are they worth the aggravation and $? I’d still say so for now, but the Germans had better stop pushing their luck.

  • avatar
    dswilly

    German garbage kicks ass

  • avatar
    guyincognito

    I would add the S52 to that list. 135K on mine and it burns ~ 1/2 a qt every 7500 miles.

  • avatar
    lanetru

    leave it to the internet to have a bunch of random people say, “i told you so,” so apologies for sounding like a know-it-all….but if your fiance did some research she probably would’ve read about the problems with the 1.8T VW/Audi.

    that alone should have brought up yellow flags about buying a 2.0T.

  • avatar
    hurls

    And this is exactly why our A4 Avant with the 2.0T TFSI engine goes back to Audi America after the lease is up, as much as we like it and would otherwise probably want to buy it.

    At least that’s my thinking now, maybe in two years I’ll be convinced that this really is “normal”.

  • avatar
    tim850csi

    Have owned several VW’s (2.04cly in my 01 Jetta, and the 2.8v6 in my current passat) and they have all burned oil. Buddy’s GTI with 2.0t engine burns through a quart every 5 or 6 thousand miles. I know it happens, I monitor oil usage to be sure it doesn’t increase and change oil every 5000k with VW specified 0w30 synthetic. I bought the jetta new and put 69k very very hard miles on it with no mechanical issues ever. The passat has 79k on it and aside from an occasional stutter shifting from 2nd to 3rd (automatic) under very light throttle applications I haven’t had significant issues.

  • avatar
    educatordan

    Yes it is amazing that a certain segment of the population will accept this. Only engine I ever had burn oil was a 307V8 in an Oldsmobile and only after 150,000 miles and not knowing the service history for the first 65,000 miles when it was purchased. Some high mileage Valvoline cured that oil burning BTW.

  • avatar
    salhany

    Do the oil burning issues in the A4 apply to the 3.2 V6 they put in there as well?

    My Volvo S60 2.5T has a light-pressure turbo and has never burned any oil in the 104K miles it has on the clock. I have to assume these issues reported here are a VW/Audi “quirk.”

  • avatar
    ttacgreg

    I have to wonder if proper or improper break in has an effect.
    My 1990 Eclipse turbo goes the 3000 mile oil change interval with noticeable oil use. Currently 98,000 miles on the odo. I broke it in very carefully when it was new. Was damn hard not gun it for its first 1000 miles.

    • 0 avatar
      Steve65

      If by “broke it in very carefully” you mean “babied it for 3k miles”, you almost certainly have glazed cylinder liners, poorly seated rings, and the inevitable oil blow-by consumption as a result.

  • avatar
    stuart

    Ford says 900 miles to the quart is “normal” for my 1993 E-350. Mine does better, therefore it’s “normal,” I guess.

    stuart

    • 0 avatar
      john.fritz

      That’s the same number they trot out for the older 4.6’s in the Vics and GMs. My ’94 goes about 3k before needing a refresher. And that’s with the notorious “Early Fail” valve stem seals installed from ’94 to ’96. So I feel lucky.

      Has Ford improved that dismal definition of normal oil consumption with their newer offerings? If I was driving around a 2009 or 2010 Vic and it was using that much oil AND the dealer told me it was normal, my head would immediately become detached from my neck due to the pressure of my brain exploding.

    • 0 avatar
      educatordan

      John Fritz I have heard that said too of the older 4.6 Modular V8s. Especially the lower performance applications like the Crown Victoria and Thunderbird/Cougar. No problems in my 2004 F150 so far at 80,000 miles and less than on time oil changes at Pep Boys. I know their were some early issues with that unit but they seem to have slowly made the improvements they needed to.

    • 0 avatar
      jpcavanaugh

      My 94 E150 with the 351 used virtually no oil over 164K. But my 93 Crown Vic with 110K uses a quart every 1000 mi, maybe a bit more. It has been this way since I got it at 64K, and it was regularly maintained. I am less than impressed with the durability of the 4.6 for this reason, because I consider this level of oil consumption WAY too much.

    • 0 avatar
      golden2husky

      Early Mod motors were known for oil consumption. The first application was the Panther, and it is still a common occurance to see beat up livery rides pumping out a cloud during deceleration and idle conditions. Yet they are still out there, which tells me that even if the early oil control issues were problematic, the basic engine design is stout. I always wondered why they put these then new engines in Panthers…I guess they figured the fleet guys were good beta testers; if you pissed them off they had nobody else to turn to…

  • avatar
    Chicago Dude

    I owned an Audi A4 with the 1.8T and it never burned any oil at all. You might think I was lucky but when it came time to sell nobody believed me. I got the same bad resale value as all the other oil-burning A4s of that vintage.

    • 0 avatar
      chuckR

      The answer is don’t sell it. Run it into the ground. Just had back to back synthetic oil and filter changes on two Audi A4 1.8Ts – at 143k miles and 104 kmiles respectively.

      If you aren’t ready to check and top up oil don’t buy a VW/Audi. The one at 143k miles – no oil burning – bought new and (anecdotally) carefully broken in. Bought the first one when Audi and Subaru were about the only ones in the AWD game.

  • avatar
    BMWfan

    Wanna bet your fiancée has been driving like a granny? Wanna bet the oil control rings are partially stuck? If it were my car, I would add lubro moly oil treatment and take it to a track near you. Rev the piss out of it to free things up. Have seen it reduce oil consumption considerably. Problem is that with factory fill synthetic and easy driving, the rings never seat, or get slightly gummed in the ring lands. ALWAYS change the oil at 5,000 mile intervals, regardless of what Audi says. I love how some guys say to stay away from “German garbage” The reason they say this is because they A) can’t afford the price of admission or B) can’t afford to stay in the game. You will never miss what you have never had I guess.

    • 0 avatar
      rmwill

      Great way to blow up the motor. Why don’t you suggest something productive like a leakdown test instead of a hillbilly Italian tuneup.

      Internet advice. Gotta love it.

    • 0 avatar
      Lemmy-powered

      “I love how some guys say to stay away from ‘German garbage’. The reason they say this is because they A) can’t afford the price of admission or B) can’t afford to stay in the game. You will never miss what you have never had I guess.”

      Ad hominem. Look it up.

    • 0 avatar
      psarhjinian

      The reason they say this is because they A) can’t afford the price of admission or B) can’t afford to stay in the game. You will never miss what you have never had I guess.

      That is such crap.

      These are commodity cars, not F1 race princesses. If other marques can build cars nearly as capable but far less glitchy there really is no excuse. General Motors is able to pull world-class numbers out of the LS-Series powerplant (an engine, I might add, that’s physically much smaller than the German eights) without it leaking oil. Toyota and Honda can get similar power from the four-cylinders without oil leakage. What’s VW’s excuse?

      This same attitude cost Mercedes scores of buyers from Toyota/Lexus. It will, mark my words, cost BMW and Audi the same at the hands of Infiniti if they’re not careful. They might get away with it a little longer in Europe (partly because of the higher ratio of company cars, partly nationalism, partly because Europeans don’t drive that much) but elsewhere it will absolutely kill them.

      I would buy your line above in, say, a Ferrari, but not in some hopped-up Volkswagen sedan. Hell, even Ferrari had a “come to Jesus” moment when Honda birthed the NSX: a car that was nearly as good as it’s Italian contemporaries but had the maintenance schedule of an Accord.

    • 0 avatar
      pgcooldad

      @ rmwill.
      Hillbilly Italian? What’s a Hillbilly Italian?

    • 0 avatar
      educatordan

      Hillbilly Italian – Veal cutlet on Wonder Bread with mayo and parm cheese. (Ricky Bobby approved)

    • 0 avatar
      psarhjinian

      Hillbilly Italian? What’s a Hillbilly Italian?

      Probably my cousins who live up in the mountains around Turin. They’re still more sophisticated than I am, though: they took some amusement from my tendency to weak socks and sandals.

  • avatar

    They told a colleague of mine that he had a “sweaty turbo”…rofl

  • avatar
    cRacK hEaD aLLeY

    2000 BMW 328Ci here @ 136,000 miles ZERO oil consumption, however car is not driven by Ms Daisy.

    Oil & filter at every 7500 km.

    Currently on Motul 6100 15W-50 but used everything from Rotella-T and Delvac-1 to PeMex 15-50 stuff while in Mexico.

  • avatar
    sitting@home

    “Tonight, the low oil indicator light came. So I said I’d get it checked out tomorrow”

    Is this low oil level, or low oil pressure ? I was always told that the indicator is for a pressure sensor just after the oil pump; if the light comes on either you’re out of oil or the pump has failed and in either case you must stop the car immediately !

  • avatar
    srogers

    I don’t see burning a quart of oil in 10,000 miles as a problem (if those guessed at numbers are close to the actual case). Nor do I see moderate oil burning as any indication of longevity of a motor.

    In contrast, if a motor than previously burned no oil suddenly began consuming a quart every 1000 miles, I would be vert concerned.

    Going by the VW/Audi owners who have posted, I would assume that VW has designed these motors with tolerances that allow a certain amount of oil burning. My 75,000 mile Focus motor burns no measurable oil between 5000mile changes, but that does not automatically mean that it’s a better motor than a VW 2.0T.

  • avatar
    Lumbergh21

    A couple of assumptions have been made here: 1) that the oil was changed at 5,000 miles and 2) that the car is only 1 quart low. I freely admit that I have never worked on or owned an Audi, and I do not know how their “low oil indicator light” works, but in every other car I’ve owned or worked on, the oil warning light was actually a low oil PRESSURE warning light, which means that the car was likely more than a quart low on oil. Maybe you should show your fiancee how to check the oil level and point out that the two minutes it takes to check the oil level while filling the gas tank could save her thousands of dollars that a new engine costs. Did you check the oil level when the light came on? How long was the car driven with the light on? You need to know how low the oil level was and for how long BEFORE going to the dealer/mechanic. I would also fill the oil to its proper level before starting the engine. I’ll leave it up to you as to how truthfull you are with the dealer, because the truth could well invalidate any warrantee when this engine dies an early death due to a lack of oil.

  • avatar
    OMG_Shoes

    Audi says this is normal? Some insecure, smarmy little spoiled brat of a BMW fanboi says this is the “price of admission/of staying in the game”? Mishegas!

    In 1995 I wanted a cheap, dependable thrasher; I bought a ’91 Acclaim with the 2.5 Four and 70k miles on it. I put in Mobil-1 and a good quality filter. 8k miles later, the dipstick still showed very nearly full — down perhaps a cup. I replaced the filter, added a quart of Mobil-1 to replace what the filter contained, and drove another 8k miles. Dipstick still showed full. At that point I replaced oil and filter. That is the schedule I adhered to until the car had 145k miles on it, still running quietly and consuming no oil until the day it lost its head gasket. I wanted something with better seats and sold it as a fixer-upper; the buyer tossed a head gasket in it and I still see it driving around town from time to time.

    Now you’re telling me I’m supposed to consider it “normal” for engines built to much higher price points, with much more advanced techniques, made much more precisely of much higher-grade materials, to consume several orders of magnitude more of much better oil? Sorry, no. Bullѕhit. I call Shenanigans; it fuсking is NOT normal.

  • avatar
    psarhjinian

    I had a Saab 9-3SE, and I knew a few Viggen, 9-5 and 9-2 owners. All turbo, some quite high-pressure.

    None of them had anything like that kind of usage, save for myself and another fellow who had leaks around the oil pressure switch. These were on some quite-high-mileage cars (my 9-3 was over 200K). I had other problems, some spectacular, but not that. It is most certainly not a characteristic of turbochargers.

    That kind of usage would be acceptable in an RX-7 or RX-8. In any other car it’s a ticking time bomb.

    • 0 avatar
      chuckR

      Counterpoint – when my Saab 9000CD blew its second head gasket at 125 k miles it went to the junkyard.

    • 0 avatar
      psarhjinian

      I don’t own that 9-3 any longer. After the transmission rebuild I’d had about enough, and with Saab looking to depart the land of the living I decided to cut my losses before parts pricing became even more of a problem.

      But the point still stands: this isn’t a turbo problem, it’s an VW/Audi problem. The owner should find a useful, factual source that documents why this is not acceptable and use that to roast VW’s warranty department, potentially in small claims. Or, if the car is leased, dump it without hesitation.

    • 0 avatar
      Lumbergh21

      And there’s a reason it’s considered perfectly acceptable in an Rx7 or Rx8, oil is intentionally injected into the combustion chambers to lubricate the seals. I would be concerned if I had a rotary engine powered car that wasn’t burning at least 1 quart per 3,000 miles because that would mean that the apex seals weren’t being properly lubricated.

  • avatar
    SherbornSean

    Sorry, guys, I don’t get the issue here. So long as its less than a quart every 3,000 miles — what do you care if the engine burns a little oil? What does a quart cost – maybe $5? You spend $40 in gas every week.

    Minor oil loss is not the same thing as reduced reliability. Unless someone like Karesh has proof* otherwise, why assume that a car that burns a couple quarts of oil a year is going to suddenly blow its engine after 4 years?

    *By proof I mean actual statistically meaningful evidence, not an anecdote about your cousin’s Lancia.

    • 0 avatar
      psarhjinian

      Because, other than rotaries, a car shouldn’t be burning oil in significant quantities at all. It means there’s poor tolerances somewhere in the engine, which is not a good starting point.

      I don’t think you’re going to find direct statistical correlation between oil use and durability, but not for lack of a problem: it’ll be because that’s just not something people are going to directly survey. A lack of data doesn’t mean it’s ok.

      Never mind that burning oil is bad for your emissions control system and the environment in general.

    • 0 avatar

      @psar: Isn’t this burning just evidence of a manufacturer’s improper piston ring break-in methodology?

      I know there’s one out there [orig] for motorcycles.

      IIRC, It does not involve babying the engine for the first x Miles. It basically exposes the engine to certain updown staged %s of its Rev Limit for fixed durations of time.

      After which, the oil and filter are immediately changed out and then you drive as normal.

      .
      I believe this was the original article, found via VwVortex that I read on the subject: http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

      Possibly this one also: http://www.ntnoa.org/enginebreakin.htm

    • 0 avatar
      Lumbergh21

      Willman:

      That’s also the case for cars. You are supposed to vary the rpms for the first 500 miles or so. I’m not talking running it to the redline, but you should rev it up occasionally during that time period.

    • 0 avatar

      @Lumbergh21: Ok. So it’s not just some odd, sportbike, 2-stroke alternate reality thing then.

      -I mean, assuming the guy on site 1 is honest, his pistons seem to speak for themselves, non?

  • avatar
    jonnyguitar

    My 2008 M3 has an appetite for oil at a rate of about a quart every 10K miles. Its a nuisance, sure, but there is no other car that offers a similar driving experience that is not from ahem, Germany.
    Not sure why people are so interested in slamming German makes. If you don’t want one, don’t buy it.
    There are definitely many cars that operate more efficiently, reliably, and cheaply. Honestly, its not hard to figure out which ones, and if thats what you’re most interested in, why the heck are you reading on this website?

  • avatar
    william442

    Our 2003 Audi A4 turbo (old engine) burned no oil in the almost four years we had it. For the 1st two we used only regular oil. Our 1999 AMG C 43 still burns no Mobil One. Even with the MB V-8 oil leaks we have never had to add any.

  • avatar
    Gardiner Westbound

    At 12,000-miles our new Ford was consuming an imperial quart of oil per 600-miles. A senior Ford engineer testified it was normal. The judge disagreed and ordered Ford to supply and install a new engine without cost to us.

    An imperial quart is 25-percent larger than a U.S. quart, 40 ounces vs. 32 ounces.

  • avatar
    twotone

    Want to burn some oil? Get a Mazda RX8 and add a quart every 1,000 miles (if you are lucky). My 1998 328i does not touch a drop between 5,000 mile synthetic oil changes.

    Twotone

  • avatar
    dolo54

    Hey, in most cars I’ve driven the low oil indicator light means you are about completely out of oil, pull over stop the car and get some oil immediately. Driving with the oil light on means blowing up the engine. Is this not the case with the Audi?

    • 0 avatar
      hurls

      Long answer: I’d need the owner’s manual in front of me…

      Short answer: evidently not a “stop right now or your engine dies” situation. More of a “it’s time to add a quart”

      There’s no dipstick in these cars, there is a display on the MMI, but the manual tells you to only add a quart when the alert comes up.

    • 0 avatar
      Rooster

      @hurls

      The 2.0T and the 1.8T most certainly have a dipsticks. I use mine (2003 A4 1.8T) regularly. Here’s a pic of the 2.0T FSI, the dipstick is the little yellow ring at the lower right of the engine.

      http://www.audiworld.com/features/tests/b7a4024.jpg

      My 1.8T burned thru one quart of oil in the first 1000 miles on the odometer. The light did come on and I pulled over as soon as I could (I was between cities on the interstate so I had to find a gas station). Dumped in a quart and the light went away. I’ve kept a quart of oil in my car since, but I’ve never had to use it. It never happened again for the past 80K miles.

      I also change my oil every 5K, never had a problem with the engine. The electricals on the other hand…

  • avatar
    gslippy

    My former 02 Passat V6 was also a 5-valve engine, which I believe the 2.0T is. At 30k miles, it was burning a quart every 1000 miles. I learned this when the oil light (low pressure) came on after a quick stop (oil sloshing in the pan). This occured 3000 miles after an oil change, and I was shocked to see that the oil level was down 3 quarts.

    I traded the car soon after learning this, because I knew that I couldn’t afford the out-of-warranty expenses as this car aged later on.

    My 01 Elantra has a much tighter engine than this, and it has 145k on the clock.

  • avatar
    TR4

    What happened to checking oil level at every fuel fill up? I guess it went away with full service. If oil is checked at refuelling it is possible to use a quart every 200-300 miles without damaging anything. Sure, it adds perhaps 10% to the cost of fuel stops but that’s still a damn sight cheaper than a trade-in or an overhaul. These people who whine about using a quart every 10,000 miles crack me up. I once bought an antique truck and found it used two quarts in 60 miles, now THAT’S oil consumption!

  • avatar
    ExPatBrit

    Just to clarify here.

    On most newer Audis (at least on the TT and A4 we have):

    The “add oil” idiot light comes on when the oil level is low. I think it’s about a quart low but I never get to that point.

    There’s second light for low oil pressure which of course is much more significant.

    The inline fours are much more critical on this because the oil capacity is less than the transverse fours (smaller sump). That is why Audi recommends the big “diesel” filter be used on some of the inline motors.

  • avatar
    Power6

    I grew up with Audis, my Mom had one in the driveway at all times since 1985. Every single one of them has used oil and requires checking and filling between oil changes.

    I don’t subscribe to the idea that this “problem” is a quality issue. Audi’s have run many miles for my family and internal engine troubles have never been an issue though there are certainly other issues! I do have a theory that the engineers may just design their engine this way as it may be some sort of compromise for piston ring life. Tight sealing rings and low oil consumption is really an emissions consideration, but if Audi gets it done another way then good for them. But I don’t have any proof of that theory, just anecdotal experience across all the engine designs over the years.

  • avatar
    ExPatBrit

    TR4
    What happened to checking oil level at every fuel fill up? I guess it went away with full service. If oil is checked at refuelling it is possible to use a quart every 200-300 miles without damaging anything. Sure, it adds perhaps 10% to the cost of fuel stops but that’s still a damn sight cheaper than a trade-in or an overhaul. These people who whine about using a quart every 10,000 miles crack me up.

    Well you know they say, “if you try to make it idiot proof they just up with better idiots”.

    I would bet the majority of this oil is being burnt at warm up. VW/ Audi moved to 0W-30 and 5W-30 synthetic oils about 8 years ago because of sludging and turbo problems on the 1.8T engines. My 96 2.8 A4 barely used any oil in 170,000 miles and never leaked either on 15W-40 Dino oil.

    • 0 avatar

      I agree with the post above…my parents used to have a ’90 Caravan V6 that leaked/burned so much oil that if you filled the crankcase in the morning it would be empty by the evening. My dad would just refill all the lost oil the following morning and be on his way.

      They drove the car a couple years that way.

  • avatar
    Ion

    At my old job we had a customer who’s certified pre-owned A4 estate drank oil and got a similar “its the turbo” response from the Audi dealership.

    I think my boss started giving her discounts on Mobil1 since we were charging 13 bucks a quart for it.

  • avatar
    frizzlefry

    Audi says that its normal for a turbo? Odd. I have a 2004 A6 S-Line, bi-turbo 2.7L and it does not burn oil at all. Same with my old man’s 2000 2.7T. I always say that my A6 cannot be replaced. Its an awesome car, very reliable. Old man says its the most reliable car he has ever owned. If, god forbid, it got written off I would have replaced it with a V6 A4 or 2.0T if I could not find a good V6…guess the 2.0T is off the table. Don’t the 2.0T GTI’s have the same problem? You would think after all this time of the 2.0T being VW/AUDI’s main powerplant they would have fixed it by now.

  • avatar
    ponchoman49

    My uncle owns a garage and repairs most German makes. He says the Audi/VW 1.8/2.0 liter turbo 4 engines are notorious for using oil and losing oil. Many of his customers seem to have this complaint. Just be glad if it is only burning one quart per oil change. Some of his customers told me that they have to add oil every 1000-2000 miles to these engines.

  • avatar
    BMWfan

    @rmwill

    “Great way to blow up the motor. Why don’t you suggest something productive like a leakdown test instead of a hillbilly Italian tuneup”

    Ever heard of a rev limiter? I guess not, or you would not have suggested that the motor would blow up. Yes, a leakdown test is a valid test,but will not indicate a stuck oil control ring, as it checks compression only.When a car is driven conservatively, especially a German car, and the oil is changed according to the manufacturers recommendations things can, and do gum up. Internet advice? Hardly. 35 years experience rebuilding engines and transmissions. When you are going to flame, at least do it when you know what you are talking about. Better still, don’t do it at all. Come on down to Thunderbolt raceway down in New Jersey some time son, and I’ll show you how it’s done

  • avatar
    Dimwit

    My Turbo Jetta goes through oil like 55L per 900Km. I think that’s normal. Why is everyone so upset?

  • avatar
    Andy D

    I have had nothing but heaps my entire driving career. My current fleet is 2 88 528es and a Grand Wagoneer, also an 88. I very much prefer working on the super etas than to any other car I have had. I really like their low level coolant and oil sensors. You really gotta be a idjit to ignore such warnings. When the LOL goes off in these cars , you dont even hafta pull the stick, it is a qt low. Deal with it. Round town, the 1st one would use a qt every 1500 miles. Whoopty doo. I bought cheap oil and added 200kmiles to a 150k mile car. Oil is pretty much oil. It has to adhere to specs that the engines are built to. What you pay for is marketing and ad hype. Walmart Supertech dino 20 w 50 works just as well.

  • avatar
    frizzlefry

    Agreed Jack. I knew about the high cost of ownership going in and I accepted it. One thing people are missing I think is the fact that while zee German cars are more expensive to maintain, they remain in great condition longer when properly maintained. I remember growing up my folks went through Fords a lot. At 80,000km they did NOT feel new anymore, despite my father always taking them in for recommended maintenance. They rattle, make noise, doors make steel on steel sounds when closed, the engine is not as quiet as it once was etc etc. My dealership drops me off/picks me up in brand new A6 models when I have my car in for service. I have driven a brand new Hyundai genesis coupe. And my 85,000km A6 feels, sounds and drives as well as they do. It still feels new. It still pleasantly surprises me now and then when the engine hits a sweet spot and snaps my neck back. Heck, my boss’s Genesis Coupe only has 7000km on it and the interior rattles already, he’s had it in 3 times to try and find the source. German cars are expensive to maintain but, in general, they do feel new longer when you take car of them. That’s why its easy for me to justify repairing it if I have to rather then shell out for a new car that, well, drives like the car I have already.

  • avatar
    frizzlefry

    Agreed Jack. I knew about the high cost of ownership going in and I accepted it. One thing people are missing I think is the fact that while zee German cars are more expensive to maintain, they remain in great condition longer when properly maintained. I remember growing up my folks went through Fords a lot. At 80,000km they did NOT feel new anymore, despite my father always taking them in for recommended maintenance. They rattle, make noise, doors make steel on steel sounds when closed, the engine is not as quiet as it once was etc etc. My dealership drops me off/picks me up in brand new A6 models when I have my car in for service. I have driven a brand new Hyundai genesis coupe. And my 85,000km A6 feels, sounds and drives as well as they do. It still feels new. It still pleasantly surprises me now and then when the engine hits a sweet spot and snaps my neck back. Heck, my boss’s Genesis Coupe only has 7000km on it and the interior rattles already, he’s had it in 3 times to try and find the source. German cars are expensive to maintain but, in general, they do feel new longer when you take car of them. That’s why its easy for me to justify repairing it if I have to rather then shell out for a new car that, well, drives like the car I have already.

  • avatar
    beken

    I remember putting a quart of oil in my Vega every two weeks. That was about 25 years ago though.

  • avatar
    kadena

    More about overrated. I have a Honda V6. Over priced, overrated, overhyped and underengineered. Price was higher than the competition. The transmission failed early. The Evap system broke. The doors stick and rattle. More noise than the competition. At least 2 engine mounts busted. There is no preventive maintenance for engine mounts. Egr system failed. Yes, it got much more than severe service maintenance. Especially for the transmission. Always Z1 transmission fluid. Bad car.

  • avatar
    PeregrineFalcon

    Allow me to serve up some delicious copypasta from a previous thread on old Audis.

    I’d give credit to the original author, but unfortunately I didn’t highlight that part.

    *eyeroll*

    I serviced them-both Audis and Mercedes-for 3 years and my relatives have a W221 S600. Between myself and the rest of my family, we’ve also had a W220 S600, a W220 S500, a W140 S500, two 560SELs, a 6.9, a 350SE, a 300SEL 4.5 and a W111 chassis 250SE. Nevermind the Es and SLs we have/had. The only cars that Mercedes has made in the past 40 years that have been truly problematic were the W163 M-Class SUVs.

    Anyhow. The W220 was a solid car with the exception of three issues:
    The ABC and Airmatic suspensions were both leak-prone, the 3 valve V8/V12 engines will develop oil leaks @ the oil pan gaskets, the valve cover gaskets and a small cover plate on the timing cover below the oil filter housing, and the crank position sensors have a nasty habit of failing without warning, usually between 60,000 and 100,000 miles, and more often than not they do leave you stuck when they fail.

    They do occasionally lunch their airflow meters, but it’s more of a “yeah, another E320 we had in 6 months ago did that too” thing, not an “oh, yeah. No problem, we have the MAF for your A4 in stock, this is the 4th one we’ve done in the past 3 days” thing.

    The W221s that I saw had no real issues (albeit possibly because they were still newer and relatively low-mileage cars when I /quit), and our S600 has been absolutely flawless.

    Audis, on the other hand… Oh let’s see. Let’s start with the engines, shall we?
    1.8T:
    -Premature failure of water pumps leading to timing belt service intervals along the lines of 70-90k miles instead of 105k
    -Premature failure of thermostat leading to same
    -Sludge issues caused by ineffective and ridiculously complicated PCV system-which itself becomes sludged up and quits working, leading to oil leaks-and a laughably small oil capacity (4.5qts? please) and an overly long oil change interval
    -Timing chain (only one cam is driven by the belt, the other is driven by a chain connected to the first cam @ the back of the head) tensioner failure due to oil starvation caused by sludge issues even when following recommended maintenance intervals
    -Timing chain tensioner gasket failure leading to oil leaking down the back side of the head and the block due to excessive crankcase pressure caused by a failed PCV system
    -Spends more time with the CEL on than off due to MAF failures, oxygen sensor failures, coolant temperature sensor failures, and vacuum leaks
    -Oil coolers and coolant expansion tanks are both prone to leaking coolant, as is the plastic flange at the back of the cylinder head

    It’s worth noting that the tensioner gasket is usually done with the valve cover gasket, and that the job is 4.5 billable hours. The PCV system is usually done at the same time since it’s plugged and most of the rubber hoses are oil-soaked and falling apart/spongy; there are a total of 30 parts that are replaced during this service, at a cost of something like $400 (it’s been a few years) and another 4.5 hours in labor. Oh, and the timing belt service is about 5 hours, since the recommended procedure to R&R it involves removing the entire front clip on the Passats and A4s or finagling it through the passenger side wheel well in the Beetle/Jetta/Golf. All three of these issues typically come up at about 80k miles (give or take 20) and the total cost to address all 3 is in the ballpark of $3k with labor costs being what they are in this part of the country (about $125/hr, $200/hr @ the dealership).

    2.7T:
    Most of the same issues as the 1.8T; doesn’t have a coolant flange at the back of the heads to leak as far as I recall, and it doesn’t have any real issues with sludge, but other than that all of the issues are the same. And it’s more expensive to fix than the 1.8T; the chain tensioner gaskets on this are 7 billable hours.

    2.8:
    1.8T, round 3. No sludge issues as it’s not a turbo, but the PCV system is still garbage (at least on this engine it’s only a plastic hose across both valve covers and a couple of small rubber elbow hoses at the back of the intake manifold that need to be replaced), it still eats vacuum hoses and airflow meters and it still pisses oil all over the place.

    4.2:
    An’ here I go again on my own… Goin’ down the only road I’ve ever known… Like a drifter I was born to walk alone…

    Ehem. It’s the same old song as the other three; oil leaks from every conceivable orifice, coolant leaks out the wazoo. Not quite the same appetite for MAFs as the 2.8 and 1.8, but they still go through them.

    Compare that to the MB engines, which suffer from oil leaks and consistent failures of crank position sensors every 60-100k. They have no other common issues of any kind; the aforementioned airflow meter issue is not uncommon, but it’s not so bad that it’s possible to predict exactly what’s wrong when someone calls and says “the check engine light is on in my 2001 E320? the way it is when they call and say “my 2002 A4’s check engine light is on again.”

    And remember how timing belt replacement on Audis is often hastened by water pump failure? In 3 years I replaced one water pump on a ML430 with 165,000 miles because it was leaking, and did one precautionary replacement on a 1987 560SL that had 140,000 and had a slight amount of dried coolant (literally, just a few drops) below the weep hole.

    And while BMW engines typically suffer from cooling system issues-and they’re arguably more severe than the Audis as BMWs like to eat their radiators and hoses as well as the water pumps and thermostats-replacing a water pump on a BMW isn’t usually a living hell of insane labor charges the way it is on the Audi engines, so it’s not really as big of a deal. And what other issues to BMW engines have? You mean besides valve cover and occasional oil pan gasket leaks? For the most part, nothing. Some have VANOS issues, but that’s about it.

    I didn’t get to see many of the 2.0/3.2/4.2FSI/5cyl VAG engines before I left, but of the handful of 2.0Ts that I DID see, all of them already had PCV issues at less than 50,000 miles. The more things change, the more they stay the same, as the saying goes.

    Now that that’s out of the way, let’s look at the rest of the cars, shall we? Let’s start with the transmissions. In 3 years I replaced 4 Audi automatics and 3 manuals. All of the cars had less than 100,000 miles on them. I replaced 2 Mercedes 5G-Tronics; both cars had over 150k. Never replaced a BMW transmission.

    How about the rest of the drivetrain and the suspension? Try asking me how many times I’ve had to sell a rear output shaft reseal on a transmission in an A4 or A6. I won’t be able to tell you, because I’ve lost count.

    Likewise, I don’t remember how many times I sold a complete rear diff reseal, which is a labor-intensive and expensive job, and one that’s especially painful to quote on certain A4s because the ETKA diagrams that show the rear diff leave out a seal or two that you need to do the job. You try ordering a part from a dealership that you don’t have a part number for and which doesn’t show up on the factory illustrations sometime. See how far you get. Total cost is about $1500 on most Audis.

    I’ve replaced driveshafts in a couple of A4s and A6s as well; never had to do that in any of the BMWs or Mercedes we saw except for on a single 1987 535is that had 225,000 miles on it.

    And what’s up with the whole split a-arm thing on the Audi front suspensions? They use 8 control arms on the front end of the A4/6/8 because it supposedly allows for more precise control of camber angles when cornering. That’s great. Awesome. Mind you, it doesn’t help any because the cars are still godawful understeering pigs, but at least it works on paper. Problem: They fail all the damn time. I can’t recall seeing a single A4/6/8 make it to 100,000 miles without replacing all 4 front upper control arm assemblies ($1200) due to cracked bushings, loose ball joints, or both.

    Some BMWs have issues with control arm bushings as well, but they’re less common and typically less expensive to fix than the Audis. And this is mostly a non-issue with Mercedes vehicles; the W220s have a funky front suspension design of their own that does cause premature bushing failures, but it’s typically at a higher mileage (100k+ vs. 70k), it doesn’t happen as often (say about 75% of cases vs. every fecking Audi I’ve ever seen), and it’s the only Mercedes that I can think of offhand with any kind of issue with premature failure of suspension components.

    Know what else the Audis go through like a cop through a box of krispy kremes? Tie rods. 9 times out of 10, by the time your control arm bushings are shot your tie rods are ready to retire, too. Neither BMWs nor Mercedes do this.

    Oh let’s see… that’s most of the basic mechanical stuff covered, what other issues do Audis have that their German counterparts do not? Oh yes. Interiors.

    They look great when the cars are new, but between the dye or paint or whatever it is that they use on certain plastic parts like the door handles (not the lever you use to open the door, but the handle itself in the door panel) wearing off and entire lines of pixels in the information display failing, by the time they’ve seen 5-6 years they look like hell. Sure, the digital displays in BMWs and Mercedes fail sometimes too-the late E32/early E38 7 series, the E34 and the E36 are all famous for it, and it’s not unheard of in some Mercedes (particularly the W210 and W203) either. But it happens a hell of a lot less often in the Mercs than it does in the Audis, and the BMWs are going on 20 years old. What’s Audis excuse?

    And then there’s parts availability; it’s not yet an issue on the cars that the OP is looking at, but it bears mentioning anyhow. Last time I checked (a few years back), I could still order a set of brand new floor mats for an M1 from BMW. Hell, BMW rebuilt an entire 2002 using largely new or NOS parts a few years back as a publicity stunt. And I can still call Mercedes and order parts for a 1962 190SL (incidentally, one of our customers DD’d a 190SL for more than 40 years; the car has over 700,000 miles on it, the engine burns little oil, has decent compression and has the original head gasket. Find me an Audi that’s done that. I can dig up Mercedes that have all day long, all I’m asking for is one-just one-Audi that’s managed to hold its **** for that long. You won’t find one.), if not through the dealership (though some parts are still available that way) then through MB Classic. VW/Audi? ROFL. Not a chance.

    Hell, there are some parts that are NLA for the Audi 4000. The thing isn’t even 30 years old. I can buy parts for a Mercedes going on 50, but an Audi from 1985? Sorry. One of the last jobs I dealt with before I quit was an early 90s GTI. I forget what year, but I want to call it a 1991. 2.0L/8v. The car had a little switch on the throttle body to detect WOT or some such. The switch on this guy’s car had failed, causing it to surge and generally run like crap (well, crappier than the 2.0 usually runs, at least). Called VW with the part number to order a new one. No longer available. Part had been discontinued. Called Audi to see if it was used on any of their cars. Also NLA. And none of the wrecking yards I called had the correct throttle body for the car. That thing wasn’t even 20 years old and it was already unfixable and undriveable without a little bit of backyard engineering. That right there should tell you all you need to know about how VAG views their cars.

    Owning a VW or an Audi out of warranty is a mistake that most people only make one time. People that do it more than once, on purpose, are either masochists, intellectually challenged or insane.

  • avatar
    Greigert

    Growing up around industrial engines – farm equip, generators, pumps, 18-wheelers, etc, never did I ever hear someone say baby a new engine. SEAT THE RINGS was the mantra. However, no one that I know ever did a control experiment and babied a new machine. Changing gears, my 2003 Northstar did indeed have quite the thirst. Level-light came on at 2qts low – I think I recall that being about 3500mi after an oil change and with increasing frequency after that. I’d change it at 5-6k when the light came on the second time. I bought this 2nd hand, no idea how it was broken in. My 2007 3.6 v6 (GM) hasn’t burned a DROP! I even went 13k mi once waiting on the oil life indicator to tell me to change it. Not a drop was burned/lost. I credit tighter QC more than my break-in habits, however.

  • avatar
    frizzlefry

    Wow. Hope the original poster of all that Audi defect info is monitoring this thread. Here is my dilemma. I could sell my 2004 A6 S-Line with 86,000kms for $19,000 (Canadian). Only used car I can find that appeals to me is a 2004 Mercedes S500 with 60,000km on the ODO. Asking price is $36,900. 0-60 times are the same for both (6.1 sec), fuel economy numbers about the same, my Audi is likely more nimble due to sport suspension and weighing slightly less. I put about 14,000km a year on my Audi. So, assuming that my Audi falls victim to the supposedly inevitable Audi repairs…will it cost me $17,900 in repairs in the next 5 years? And if it will, thus justifying the extra cash to buy the S500 since I will supposedly be spending it anyways, will the S500 never require any repairs in the next 5 years? Honestly, I cannot see the A6 costing me $17,900 worth of repairs in the next 5 years at 14,000km a year. I don’t think the “dump it when the warranty runs out” argument makes a lot of sense in my case and most others when talking about a 2004 or higher model Audi. Unless, of course, you are willing to get into a civic.

  • avatar
    Larry P2

    PeregrineFalcon entirely misses the point: These cars have interiors that cause import fanatics to writhe in sexual ecstasy. The fact that they are mechanically expensive and unreliable pieces of sh!t is beside the point.

    I recently, for approximately two months, along with my daughter in law, temporarily splurged on a New Beetle, and a Jetta station wagon, respectively. Each car had about 50 k miles on them at the time of purchase. On both, the automatic transmissions (A $5,000 repair) almost immediately went south. I quickly traded mine off and lost nothing because of my temporary insanity. She is trading hers off for a japanese blobmobile this weekend.

    With German cars, you have been warned.


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