By on April 7, 2009

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67 Comments on “Why Do I Keep Hearing the Safety Dance in my Head?...”


  • avatar
    BDB

    Why would anyone choose this over a moped? Hell I’d choose a bicycle over that Douchemobile.

  • avatar
    Bunter1

    I remember the media build up for “Ginger” a few years back.

    When the Segway was finally revieled I first thought was “Dean Kaman just answered a question no one is asking…expensively.”

    The market has tended to support my gut reaction.

    Finally he found a suck- er, “investor” dumb enough to expand it into a yet sillier direction.

    Shocker…the dim-bulbs are at GM!

    There are far easier, cheaper ways to cover this mobility problem. This is cool technology but Kaman needs to look in a different area for an application, IMO.

    Bunter

  • avatar
    Bunter1

    BDB-You summed up my point rather well.

    Bunter

  • avatar
    wgmleslie

    I think Gary Numan used one of these in the live version of “Cars”.

  • avatar
    Lokki

    The technology behind the Segway is still looking for an application.

    To point out the obvious, this thing offers no (real) weather protection or stowage space. However, adding doors requires adding climate control; adding storage space means adding size or giving up the passenger space.

    And as was pointed out in a previous thread, you can’t use it on the sidewalk, and your life insurance payoff would barely cover the clean-up costs of wiping you off the street after your first NYC taxi encounter.

  • avatar
    BDB

    The technology behind the Segway is still looking for an application.

    Oh, come on! I’m sure dozens of rent-a-cops and retirement community members love ‘em!

  • avatar
    carguy

    I’m not sure that there is a big market for a golf-cart/wheel-chair hybrid.

  • avatar
    ScottMcG

    Looks like maybe they had to downsize the Volt…

    I happen to think Dean Kamen is one of the smartest guys in the world. The Segway was dorky, but the technology is still pretty cool. And he just got GM to give him more money to keep developing it. I don’t see us common folk using these things, but they would be good for parking enforcement, meter readers, and uh…OK, nobody really. Maybe it will take the place of golf carts to wheel old people around Century Village, but only if they’re cheaper and don’t topple over.

    Ultimately, this technology will become cheap enough to make scooters for kids. That’s probably the biggest realistic market. It sure ain’t gonna save GM.

  • avatar
    BDB

    Ultimately, this technology will become cheap enough to make scooters for kids.

    Kids already have Power Wheels.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_Wheels

  • avatar
    Samuel L. Bronkowitz

    // I remember the media build up for “Ginger” a few years back. //

    Exactly what I was thinking. Hasn’t Segway already had its 15 minutes of fame?

    Maybe this will be their 15 minutes of infamy?

  • avatar
    Disaster

    Actually, the technology started with a very successful application….a wheelchair that stood up to gain the operator the ability to reach things and see things they couldn’t on a normal wheelchair.

    Someone told Kamen, or he got the idea himself, that wouldn’t it be fun if non-wheelchairbound people could drive one. Then he got the absurd idea that it could sell in mass to the average Joe. I suppose that is what happens when you are a billionaire who has lost touch with reality.

    Kamen is probably sitting pretty. The real losers are the guys who invested in the Segway (Steve Jobs and friends.) GM is such a slow dinosaur I wouldn’t be surprised if they started this project shortly after the Segway was released and just don’t have the ability to kill horrible projects like this.

    To appreciate one needs to watch the momumentory.

    http://www.10mph.com/

  • avatar
    psarhjinian

    Ultimately, this technology will become cheap enough to make scooters for kids.

    Or, you know, kids could use a bike. Not running your kid to the point of exhaustion is not a winning strategy, both for their physical health and your (the parent’s) mental health.

    Things like the Segway are not a good idea outside of very, very limited applications. You can already get a bicycle—even a hybridized one that offers regenerative braking—for less than what the Segway costs and get the benefit of some exercise, the ability tocarry cargo and the option to fold it up into a base. You could also use a scooter, rollerblade or simply walk.

    If you can’t do any of the above (ie, if you’re infirm) standing and balancing on a normal Segway is going to be a similar problem and maybe, just maybe, something like this could work. But so could a conventional (and much cheaper) motorized scooter.

    I think the technology (self-balancing based on gyroscopes) is neat, but it’s pretty useless. Other than catering to rich people and very lazy workers with creme-de-la-creme employment contracts, I can’t fathom where this would work.

  • avatar
    Robert Schwartz

    Is there any connection between this and the popularity of “Paul Blart, Mall Cop”?

  • avatar
    Pig_Iron

    I want to see one jump a snow drift at Milford proving grounds. ;-)

  • avatar
    Bancho

    If this is really what things come to then I’ll just walk.

  • avatar
    Colinpolyps

    Looks like an ejection seat on wheels from a Tomcat.

  • avatar
    Lokki

    Looks like an ejection seat on wheels from a Tomcat.

    Looks like ejected sh*t, on wheels, from the rear end of a Tomcat.

    There, fixed it for ya. :-)

  • avatar
    joeaverage

    What no rebaged SUV package to carry this thing home??? VBG!

    I’ve ridden Segways and they are really fun. However there are a bunch of short comings. Lose traction on one side and down you go. My friend broke a wrist that way. 10 mph is a pretty slow pace to cover a long distance like 5 miles. Standing up for that long isn’t so great either.

    I DO think our local meter readers would benefit from them. Better than the V-8 4WD pickup they drive from house to house… Ticket writers would also get good use from a Segway.

    I think if I lived in NYC or some place like that I could get into Segway ownership. Not here though.

    I am working towards converting my mtn bike to electric power. ~15 mph to work and bike.

    C’mon $4 gasoline! Not really…

  • avatar
    mach1

    I can just imagine this toy trying to negotiate through even a few inches of snow (a frequent occurrence in the great white north). It would also be a lot of fun with any sort of wind / driving rain situation.

    How sad that a formerly great company would stop to such depths in an attempt to claim they have a future, Unfortunately, the future they face is grim and the PUMA and the VOLT won’t save them.

  • avatar
    no_slushbox

    As Tata prepares to move the Indian people from unsafe two-wheeled vehicles to a proper cars with the Nano, apparently GM is preparing to take the American people in the opposite direction with this.

    And, as others have pointed out, the basic premise of this vehicle (small two-wheeled motorized transport) has been in existence for more than 100 years, but with a better design. Right now Yamaha, for example, will sell a two passenger, 125cc (enough to leave this Rube Goldberg exercise in stupidity in the dust), scooter for $2,899. I would much rather use it to drive through a city than this thing.

    http://www.yamaha-motor.com/sport/products/modelspecs/328/0/specs.aspx

    And if being electric is the issue then there are a number of decent single track electric scooters.

  • avatar
    Johnny Canada

    Great, an electric rickshaw. Pop Goes The World.

  • avatar
    Happy_Endings

    Why not just get a motorized La-Z-Boy?

    http://www.allbusiness.com/business-planning-structures/starting-a-business/4969258-1.html

  • avatar

    Thanks to Johnny Canada for my first laugh of the day!

    The wheelchair is great. I’ve seen it up close. But as for Ginger, some people have a lot of technical smarts, but not so much judgment.

  • avatar
    FloorIt

    @wgmleslie :
    It was Peter Gabriel in Games Without Frontiers that used these.

  • avatar

    @Joeaverage

    the title of this thread expresses my opinion about riding one of these in NYC. I don’t see any advantage over a bicycle, especially a folding bicycle that you could carry on the subway. You’re not going to ride this thing in the rain, the snow, or (probably) the cold. And it’s not easy to bring in and out of places.

  • avatar
    Johnny Canada

    Here’s the dope ride:

    Open a second window of your browser. Go to Youtube. Search and play, “Electric Avenue by Eddy Grant”. Crank that up.

    Now, go back to the TTAC window (turn that Youtube volume down) and watch the video.

    See, now you want one.

  • avatar
    Bancho

    It’s going to turn out that WALL-e was a documentary sent back in time as a kids movie.

  • avatar
    garvent

    I worked for two years on Kamen’s $20k plus, balancing wheel chair during development and to prove-out the balancing technology they built a very basic, two wheeled mock-up (in house code name Ginger after dancer Ginger Rogers)to prove the balancing tech needed for the balancing wheel chair and the MENSA level engineers all used it to quickly move around the office and shops. They thought this would be a great product after the wheel chair project was done.

    These engineers all work in a super secret restored 4 story former mill shop in Manchester, NH. Kamen has a very fine house on a hill and flies his helicopter to the roof of the mill house on days when he’s not driving the Porsche 928. All of these people are somewhat out of touch with the real world people down on the street who they think might buy their $20K chairs and $5-6K Segways.

    I have also worked inside the GM Tech Center and Design Center and it could also be said many(not all of course)of these folks only travel between their nice homes to the north and down to the Tech Center and have little contact with the real public in between.

    Once someone complained to my boss that I should not be allowed to park my fine Honda in their parking lot(it should be American cars only) and I said they should be more aware of what the real public is driving instead of creating this all American car parking lot illusion.

    Conclusion: two out of touch companies living in isolation and loosing in the market place and leaning (crying)on each other’s shoulders and looking for some kind of breakthrough. Jeeeez!

  • avatar
    derm81

    This may be a little off topic but remember that episode of South Park where Mr. Garrison creates some sort of gyroscopic cycle that requires more than hands to operate? This reminds me of it for some reason.

  • avatar
    Happy_Endings

    Open a second window of your browser. Go to Youtube. Search and play, “Electric Avenue by Eddy Grant”. Crank that up.

    We’re gonna rock down to K-Mart to buy some shoes. They only cost a dollar.

  • avatar
    pariah

    Is it classified as a bike, or a car, or what? If it’s technically a car and is street-legal, would it be subject to crash tests and safety ratings and whatnot?

  • avatar
    f8

    Here you go: http://youtubedoubler.com/?video1=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DUcS8stGOGCo&video2=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DUA5MtAmT24g

  • avatar
    shaker

    What Kamen doesn’t seem to realize is that you have to build a community around this type of transportation, not the opposite.

    A technologically beautiful failure.

    Speaking of failures, a catastrophic kerfuffle of the drive at 25mph would *not* be pretty.

  • avatar
    Stein X Leikanger

    @garvent

    Yes, think you’re right. Mr. Kamen has proven exceptionally adept at creating things people don’t need, but which appear sufficiently cool in the prospectus to attract investors.
    No doubt the man’s a hyperintelligent engineer/designer, but it’s as if his calibration’s off.

    What happened with his work on the Stirling Engine?

  • avatar
    no_slushbox

    derm81:

    “This may be a little off topic but remember that episode of South Park where Mr. Garrison creates some sort of gyroscopic cycle that requires more than hands to operate? This reminds me of it for some reason.”

    Good call; you’re completely on topic. The similarities are disturbing:

    http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/153051/?tag=Gyroscope

  • avatar
    tedward

    This thing is ass backwards. I want 4 wheels for forward movement and two for tight parking, with maybe a walking speed available when upright. I can only assume that this option was ignored in order to create a different and attention grabbing concept. Maybe they just want to maintain a connection to the (utterly ridiculous) Segway.

    One thing is for sure though, if I have to share pedestrian space with one of these things I will not be moving out of the way…that treatment is solely reserved for baby strollers and wheelchairs.

  • avatar
    radimus

    The technology behind the Segway is still looking for an application.

    It already found one:

    http://www.dekaresearch.com/ibot.html

    Actually, I think the Segway is an offshoot of the tech in the IBOT. Dean was probably looking for some way to commercialize the tech while he was waiting for the FDA to approve the IBOT.

  • avatar
    superbadd75

    My official answer is “Because Safety Dance kicks ass!”, and I’m sticking with it.

  • avatar
    tony-e30

    The proportions of the PUMA are such that two averaged size Americans would have a difficult time fitting into it at once. Also, I can’t help but notice the people driving this vehicle are all slim, trim, young, and fit. Isn’t that demographic riding bicycles, walking, jogging, and otherwise being physically active? I can’t help but envision the PUMA being a replacement for the Segways currently being used for tours of attractions.

  • avatar
    psarhjinian

    What Kamen doesn’t seem to realize is that you have to build a community around this type of transportation, not the opposite.

    Even that’s wrong, because any community you design to explicitly support this thing would also explicitly support other means of transport that are cheaper, less wasteful and more effective.

    Walking, for instance.

  • avatar
    dean

    You wouldn’t get me riding that thing on city streets without a motorcycle helmet. Then again, you wouldn’t catch me riding that thing, period.

  • avatar
    Martin Schwoerer

    Folks, get out of your suburban mindset. It has no relevance to how most people on our planet live. The Luddite attitude to be found here is not sensible at all.

    I’ve said it before: this year for the first time ever, more than 50% of the world’s people live in cities. That percentage will grow to 80% by 2100. Virtually billions of people are needing, and will be wanting safe and convenient transportation.

    What is safe and convenient in the city? Cars are safe but not convenient — no space, inefficient, no parking. Scooters are not safe and not useful for most people. I know, I use a Vespa on a daily basis. Walking is fine but only for short distances. Public transport is safe but inefficient and inconvenient.

    Into this virtual vacuum walk Segway and other developers of micro cars. Don’t diss new concepts before you are sure that the American suburban lifestyle is really sustainable.

  • avatar
    Rod Panhard

    Mr. Scwoerer, I’d agree with you except for one thing. We already have mass transit in our major cities. That pretty much makes the Segway and it’s offspring irrelevant. I can take the subway just about where ever I want, and when ever I want.

    The Segway is impractical for crowded sidewalks. It can’t keep up with traffic in the streets. Nor can it surmount potholes at speed, safely.

    If anything, this device has its best application in the suburbs served by mass transit. But there’s a problem there, too. In the suburbs, you have this vehicle sharing roads with real, actual size cars, moving at real suburban speeds of 30 miles per hour. Even in the best case scenario, the GM/Segway device would be toast, even if hit by a Kei-class microcar.

    There is one unrealistic expectation about the promotional video. Did anyone else notice that the vehicle didn’t encounter any potholes? I was in New York City on Sunday, and I can assure you, not only are flowers in bloom, but so are the potholes.

  • avatar
    Lokki

    Martin -

    I lived in Tokyo for nigh on a decade…. Covered scooters like this aren’t a new concept (except for the fancy electronic gizmos that let it balance on two side-by-side wheels)- here’s a picture of one grabbed from the net at random -

    http://www.thescootermall.com/images/blueCabriletSmall.jpg

    They are never very popular because the advantages they offer aren’t great enough. There’s no true weather protection, and there’s not much carry space. You see a lot more ‘regular’ scooters that covered ones, and tons more bicycles than scooters. This Siamese-Segway is a lot less practical in the city than an ordinary scooter.

    At least the in-line scooter design is more easily parked near a crowded station. Where are you going to leave this thing at the station? For that matter, where are you going to park it at your apartment building? And, being that it’s electric, where are you going to plug it in? You have to get out of your suburban mentality that says you have a garage with a convenient electrial outlet available.

    Finally, in most urban environments where scooters are used, they’re used by one person who is commuting to the train/subway station…. what’s the advantage of having a seat for the second person? What are the practical uses where you’re going to need to carry a second person with you?

    This thing is a pointless display of a technology that accomplishes a task that is already handled better and more cheaply by current technology.

  • avatar
    Martin Schwoerer

    Rod, mass transport is not viable for most places and I maintain it is not economical. Just ask Ed N. who is in Hanoi right now, whether subways are the solution. Even here in Frankfurt it’s not the solution — slow, expensive, filthy.

    I am not saying this Segway is the solution, I am just saying the concept could be viable for millions.

    Lokki, last time I was in Tokyo I wished I had a scooter too. But I still say, they are not safe enough and easy enough to drive for most people.

    Recharging need not be done in garages. There are dozens of field tests and plans right now for metered on-street recharging over the world.

  • avatar
    Bunter1

    Just realized something-this is a fouled up over priced, hi-tech version of Stan Mott’s legendary “Cyclops”!

    I love new tech-however this is a disaster.

    Bunter

  • avatar
    no_slushbox

    Martin Schwoerer:

    Where do you get the idea that this thing is safe?

    Those bars are not going to do anything in a collision except impale the passengers.

    I would feel much safer on a scooter.

    If you don’t believe in mass transit, bikes and scooters then the only alternatives are Japanese style Kei cars in wealthier areas and Tata Nano style stripped down Kei cars in poorer areas.

    Every major city that I know of is divided into roads and sidewalks, this thing is suitable for neither.

  • avatar
    Pch101

    Into this virtual vacuum walk Segway and other developers of micro cars. Don’t diss new concepts before you are sure that the American suburban lifestyle is really sustainable.

    I dunno. This particular concept strikes me as being the worst of both worlds. A low speed vehicle designed to use the roadways of higher speed traffic, but without the safety features. At the same time, it’s too fast to coexist peacefully with pedestrians, and takes up enough space that it would require dedicated parking, as would a micro car.

    Urban environments with density sufficient to warrant this could use a combination of mass transit, taxis, bicycles and foot power. I’m just not seeing the problem being solved here.

  • avatar
    geozinger

    Had this been proposed by Honda or Suzuki or some other entity, you folks would be peeing your pants with joy right now. But hey, pile on GM, while you can…

    I agree with Mr. Schwoerer, there are few good alternatives for getting around any urban area. I live in a mid-sized midwestern town with a decent bus service, but from one end to the other is a two hour ride, really not practical for those other than the most desperate.

    Two things to consider: I believe more and more of the mega-metropolis’ (pardon my spelling) will start to ban all but delivery and emergency vehicles in city centers before long, or at a minimum charge so much (like London) that you WOULD rather be seen in something like this.

    Secondly, I could see this being an alternative to the Tata Nano, particularly in the big cities of countries like China, India and Malaysia. Naturally, they would have to develop some sort of infrastructure to power them, but don’t count out these folks’ ingenuity. Adaptability and cunning don’t just exist only in the Western Hemisphere.

    I agree again with Mr. Schwoerer, how we live in the West has no bearing on the other 90% of the world.

  • avatar
    mikey610

    Please please please check this link out from the Freep…there are too many hilarious quotes to list in this comment box.

    A glimpse:
    “Having conquered the world of passenger vehicles, General Motors Corp. showed off its vision of future transportation today …”

    or

    “Think Facebook on wheels,” says Burns

    What does that even mean?

  • avatar
    kasumi

    When I saw this the first thing I thought of was Project Moonraker. Remember VW’s bizarre 3-wheel car/motorcycle which American’s would be clamoring for? I understand the point of design studies and experiments, but seriously Honda can justify their little robot, but does GM think people want this?

  • avatar
    no_slushbox

    geozinger:

    Toyota actually presented something similar a while ago; nobody peed in their pants, except possibly out of laughter, and it was almost universally mocked:

  • avatar
    tedward

    “Had this been proposed by Honda or Suzuki or some other entity, you folks would be peeing your pants with joy right now. But hey, pile on GM, while you can…”

    I disagree. This is just PR, GM never expects to sell a single one of these things and probably never even considered production. Same goes for Toyota with their equally ridiculous (and yet far better executed) mobility wheelchair or whatever they want to call it.

    IMO this is waaay more pie in the sky than the Volt ever was. The Volt’s main issues are broken promises and the price point, but at least they know that a car shaped object with wheels can be sold. In the case of the PUMA there isn’t a single sure thing in sight.

  • avatar
    venom0341

    Guys this is the chassis for the smart car…..LOL

  • avatar
    dhanson865

    I wouldn’t pay any more for that than I would for a cheap mountain bike. Say $200?

    I mean I wouldn’t be able to go on the interstate and even the “back” or “side” roads in my city during rush hour are likely to be seeing 40 to 60 MPH traffic if they are any kind of through street at all.

    So for it to get more than once a month type use from me it had better be able to get up to at least 40 MPH easily, and be able to get me to work without getting rained on or splashed.

    I don’t need to go faster but I’d like to go cheaper. Thousands of dollars for a new vehicle motorcycle, scooter, wheelchair, whatever you call it isn’t going to cut it. Get it down to hundreds of dollars if it won’t compete with a beater like say the Saturn S series from the 90s. At least in a beater Saturn I can make it to and from with more comfort and safety than this device promises.

  • avatar
    wsn

    geozinger :
    April 7th, 2009 at 4:00 pm

    Had this been proposed by Honda or Suzuki or some other entity, you folks would be peeing your pants with joy right now. But hey, pile on GM, while you can…

    ——————————————-

    1) This is from GM, not from Honda.
    2) Even if this is from Honda, Honda didn’t build this “thing” with my money.
    3) As soon as this “thing” sells for a profit and helps GM return my money, I will stop bashing GM.

  • avatar
    wsn

    geozinger :
    April 7th, 2009 at 4:00 pm

    Secondly, I could see this being an alternative to the Tata Nano, particularly in the big cities of countries like China, India and Malaysia.

    ———————————————

    If this “thing” cost as much as a Tata Nano, I fail to see why would anyone want it over a Nano.

    It only becomes attractive when it’s a fraction of the price of the Nano, say US$500.

  • avatar
    geozinger

    wsn,

    I have to believe this ‘thing’ was already in progress long before the time GM was asking for MY money.

    Most of the comments are condemning the idea by it’s association with GM. A good idea is a good idea, regardless of origin.

    I have no way of knowing if it would make production. If it does cost as much as a Nano, then, it’s no issue. I would guess that the price discussed was to give us an idea of what it could cost. Maybe given a different production environmnet, it could be a lot cheaper.

    What would keep GM & Segway from forming a partnership to build these things in Asia somewhere using inexpensive parts and labor?

    Or even better yet, selling the whole idea to Mr. Tata?

  • avatar
    BDB

    “Two things to consider: I believe more and more of the mega-metropolis’ (pardon my spelling) will start to ban all but delivery and emergency vehicles in city centers before long, or at a minimum charge so much (like London) that you WOULD rather be seen in something like this.”

    Hmm, then we would need an alternative. If only there was a cheap, reliable, personal, user-friendly, non-motorized wheeled vehicle that even a child could afford.

    I think it could be called a “bicycle”, or something like that.

  • avatar
    Captain Tungsten

    Perhaps someone should ask Kamen “if your so smart, how come you ain’t rich?” Oh, wait, he is…

    I detect just a hint of jealousy in all the typical vitriol presented here.

  • avatar
    ihatetrees

    I’d wouldn’t use one of these on a Manhattan street without a patrol car’s worth of hazard and gumball lighting.

  • avatar
    frozenman

    Could this be the drive-line ‘test mule’ for the military’s new ‘terminator series’ enemy suppression/urban pacification robot?

  • avatar
    Stu Sidoti

    Hmmm…one thing I mos-def learned from that video was to make sure next time I want to ride around a major city in one of my untagged vehicles to just stencil ‘EXPERIMENTAL’ all over it…Yeah, that’ll work-I’m sure the Po-po will understand.
    In a litigious city like New York, they HAD to break some sort of registration law with this…thing.

  • avatar

    I use a bicycle for transportation regularly, and while I love cycling, and while many people could commute and otherwise use bikes for transportation, it’s nice to arrive at your destination dry from weather and sweat.

    Electric bicycles don’t make much sense because whatever benefit you get from the power assist, you end up lugging around all that weight. Still, the appeal of regenerative braking, downhills and shock absorbers is worth pursuing.

    Frankly, it’s clever engineering and a less stupid concept than that Ford Airstream monstrosity. As no_slushbox pointed out, Toyota’s done a similar concept and I think Honda’s done so as well.

  • avatar
    Ronman

    it’s cool how it balances, but like someone said above, isn’t it easier, and probably cheaper to invest in an electric scooter? or even a tuned golf cart? they have them in hummer shape these days, so the GM touch is still there….

  • avatar
    Lokki

    What this boils down to is this question:

    What is a cheap,practical, ecologically friendly mode of individual transportation in crowded cities?

    What value does the Segway technology bring to the equation?
    Why it is better to balance on two side-by-side wheels that a front-rear two-wheel arrangement, or, given the width of the vehicle, why is it better to use two wheels instead of four?

    Couldn’t a golf cart perform all of the same functions that this thing does?

    What are the specific advantages of this thing?

    That’s the question for which I can’t seem to find an answer.

  • avatar
    fincar1

    “What would keep GM & Segway from…selling the whole idea to Mr. Tata??”

    Mr. Tata being a reasonably bright individual, for one.


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