By on August 4, 2021

LL_studio/Shutterstock

On Tuesday, Matt wrote an op-ed piece in which he said that it’s a mistake for automakers to bring back mask mandates.

I disagree.

First, a bit of peeling back the curtain on how op-eds are handled here — as a site, we will make arguments from across the spectrum, as long as they are intellectually honest, factually-backed when possible/appropriate, and don’t stray into outright bigotry. Oh, and the topic needs to be appropriate and interesting for our audience, of course. TTAC is meant to be a place where all of those who write here (and outsiders with a strong freelance pitch) can have a voice, regardless of whether myself or others on staff agree or not.

And we often don’t agree on cars, sports, or politics. I’ve disagreed with a couple of Jo’s takes, but I happily published them so y’all can have an interesting discussion. Unrelated to cars, our staff is all over the political map, Chris and I root for different MLB teams that share the same city, and Adam gets trolled when the Detroit Lions do that thing they do (lose). It’s mostly, though not always, civil, and I wouldn’t have it any other way.

I mention this because a few of you took issue with Matt’s piece. And while I will edit for factual errors (which in itself can lead — and has led — to internal arguments over whether something is factual or not in some unique cases. Not all facts are clear-cut, and that can make things messy sometimes), I do not try to change any individual writer’s argument. Matt is within his rights to make the arguments he made, even if you or I disagree.

That said, I don’t agree with all of his arguments from the post, and since we both have this platform, it’s time for an old-fashioned point/counterpoint.

Let’s start here: “Except what would be the utility of getting vaccinated when the decision literally serves as an example that you’ll still be subjected to COVID restrictions?” I get the frustration here — it’s why a lot of fully vaccinated people, myself included, feel angry that we did our part, got the go-ahead to take off our masks, and whoops, now we have to put them back on. But here’s the thing — it also, to me, serves as an incentive to get the unvaccinated but persuadable folks to get their shots ASAP. The thinking, to me, is that if we can get more folks vaxxed, we can finally ditch the mask (please excuse the partial rhyme).

The Delta variant plays into this, as well. It’s highly contagious among the unvaccinated. The Center for Disease Control and Prevention has new data that seems to suggest that the vaccinated can spread the variant quite easily if they become infected, and they may not realize they’re infected. Yes, infections among the vaccinated seem rare. More on that in a sec. That said, the idea is if we all mask up indoors while in public for a few weeks, maybe we can slow the spread of Delta, which by all accounts is far more contagious than the original COVID strain.

Masking up is meant to kill two birds with one stone — or is that two strains with one mask? Bad jokes aside, the idea is that masking will keep the unvaccinated from spreading the virus to each other, and to keep the vaccinated who are unknowingly infected with a “breakthrough” case of COVID from also spreading it.

Speaking of those breakthrough infections, I know they are very rare, despite the fact that the mainstream media’s reporting last week came across as alarmist (sidenote: I think the issue was a lack of statistical training among media, as opposed to fearmongering for clicks, but either way, the reporting needed to be better). But they do and will happen.

This is why I think it’s smart for the automakers to keep mask mandates in place for a while. It’s not just about safety for the workers or their communities, it’s about good business. Do automakers want to lose workers to illness, especially as they work to catch up from the production delays caused by the chip shortage? Even asymptomatic workers who test positive will be asked to quarantine. That’s one fewer man or woman on the assembly line.

That said, Matt raises a good point about enforcement on the assembly line. Mandates mean little if there isn’t compliance and enforcement. Masks won’t work if they aren’t worn — and worn correctly. And the workers surveyed for Matt’s post and a previous article don’t necessarily give off confidence that the mandates were/are being followed in such a way as to actually reduce viral spread.

I do agree with Matt that it’s odd to have the United Auto Workers and the Detroit Three coming together on a national mandate shortly after the automakers had already started bringing back mask mandates on a smaller basis. Perhaps the reasoning is that it’s simply easier to mandate masks across the board than doing it patchwork based on COVID case counts in a given state. Or maybe it’s also a subtle nudge for the unvaccinated to get jabbed.

I won’t get too much into the mental health/lockdown discussion, since I don’t think lockdowns are coming back unless a variant makes the vaccines completely useless, other than to say that lockdowns do suck and hurt the economy and take a toll on mental health, yet they also do slow the spread of the virus. All those things are simultaneously true.

Similarly, I don’t know where I am at when it comes to vaccine mandates, and/or showing proof of vaccination. Mask mandates, I can abide, at least for now — they’re meant to keep people from spreading the virus, I’d rather be masked in public than stuck at home, and they won’t last forever*. I’d love to rely on people being grown-up adults and making the right choice, the one that protects not just themselves but those around them, but unfortunately, too many people have either not understood why masks were/are necessary. Or they do understand but just insist on not doing something they don’t want to do, even if their choice has potentially serious negative consequences for others.

*For reasons I still cannot understand, anti-maskers seem to think that those of us who were OK with mask mandates and diligent about masking actually like wearing the things. I don’t. In fact, I usually hate it. But I’d rather wear one than risk COVID. That said, I will ditch mine ASAP when the time comes, and I’ve already been a bit more lax since the date my full vaccination kicked in. I still wear it when required by local law or a business, but I can’t wait till I can stuff my masks in a drawer.

Vaccine mandates give me a bit more pause, though I’m slowly leaning towards being accepting of the idea. I’m of the camp that personal liberty stops applying when your liberty affects mine. If you’re not vaccinated, you could, in theory, get me sick, despite my vaccination. And if too many people are not vaccinated, it can lead to the healthcare system being overwhelmed and prevent us from fully reopening society.

Besides, it’s not like vaccine mandates are illegal. In fact, the law is on their side in most cases.

On the other hand, the idea of a mandate just feels creepy, even if it’s legal and can be justified on moral and/or logical grounds. I think that’s where some of the objection comes from. Even as someone leaning in favor, ever so slightly, of the idea, I feel uncomfortable.

The bigger issue, to me, is showing proof — it’s way too easy to fake these cards, despite stiff punishment for those who do.

Before you think I am veering off track, this matters for the auto industry. Private companies can mandate vaccines, and many outside the industry are, so it will be interesting to see what happens with automotive plants (and offices). Ford is the only OEM I know of with a mandate so far, and only for those who travel internationally.

I also share some of Matt’s concerns about the government working with social-media giants to stop misinformation. To be clear, it is not “censorship” for a site like Facebook to take down content it believes is misinformation. It’s content moderation, just like what we do here when one of you commenters breaks our rules. Nor do I think it’s a violation of free speech or the First Amendment for the government to work with companies like Facebook to stop misinformation. Stopping misinformation/disinformation is not the same as censoring ideologies.

That said, it does make me uncomfortable to have the government involved — can we trust that the administration won’t cross the line from honest fact-checking by public-health officials into soft suppression of objectionable speech? I’d like to think so, but it’s still worrisome. And even if it maintains an honest, good-faith effort to stop harmful public-health misinformation, is the government really the entity that should be doing fact-checking? Isn’t that best left to the media and the social-media companies? I know the public-health officials likely have nothing but honest intentions, and they have the required expertise — but this is an area in which the administration needs to tread carefully, lest it give off the impression of overreach.

That’s not to say I agree with the screeching critics Matt cited — some were over the top, others flat wrong — but even if some prominent pundits falsely cry “censorship”, that doesn’t mean that we should feel good about government intervention when it comes to stopping misinformation. No matter how well-intended it is.

Finally, I’d like to close by touching on a point Matt hinted at throughout his piece. People are exhausted by the pandemic, and by the way the rules seemingly constantly change. The communication from public-health officials, especially from the CDC, has not been great, either under Trump or Biden. Tying this back to the car world, I’d love to see some of the spinmeisters employed by the OEMs take a crack at things. I’d bet they’d have set expectations well — “We’re still learning about the virus, and advice might change, and it might even be contradictory, please bear with us”. I bet they’d have better explained why the vaccinated need to mask up again, at least for a while, to deal with Delta.

Indeed, maybe they need to explain the need for mask mandates to their own people.

[Image: LL_studio/Shutterstock.com]

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183 Comments on “Counterpoint: Mask Mandates for Autoworkers Are Fine...”


  • avatar
    28-Cars-Later

    “If you’re not vaccinated, you could, in theory, get me sick, despite my vaccination.”

    Then your “vaccination” was not a vaccination because the whole point of actual vaccination is to prevent you from getting X in the first place. Its a treatment designed to keep you from developing severe symptoms or dying, along with some amount of prevention of further spread with unknown long term side effects and a short time side effect of death for an unfortunate 6400+ Americans.

    My understanding is in addition to the standard State Media procedure of 80% lies/20% truth the treatment is called a “vaccine” because other treatments are/were available under the EUA banner. Its a “vaccine” because the other options are *treatments*, just like the Pfizer/Moderna concoction is and likely always will be, and as usual follow the money.

    • 0 avatar
      Lou_BC

      All of the alternative treatments like chlorquine, hydroxychloroquine, ivermectin, metformin and fluvoxamine have not panned out to the degree where one could do a mass treatment rollout. Any properly executed study is still in the process of coming to a conclusion or has released preliminary data saying that the efficacy is inconclusive or ineffective.

      The only known effective drug for COVID-19 ARDS is dexemethesone and similar steroids. They are cheep and effective.

    • 0 avatar
      FreedMike

      This is kind of like arguing that seatbelt use should be optional because medical science has progressed to the point where it can fix injuries from car crashes far better than it ever could before. Or…you should be able to skip the birth control because abortion is legal.

      There’s a better way, don’t you think?

    • 0 avatar
      sirwired

      “Then your “vaccination” was not a vaccination because the whole point of actual vaccination is to prevent you from getting X in the first place.”

      Untrue. There are lots of vaccines that do not prevent infection; the most-prominent are the toxoid vaccines (Tetanus and Diptheria) but others work that way also. With Tetanus, you’ll still get an infection of C. Tetani, but won’t get lockjaw. (The vaccine generates antibodies against the toxin the infection produces, not the bacteria itself; no infection, nothing for the antibodies to attack.)

      • 0 avatar
        96redse5sp

        If the CDC doesn’t consider the Covid shots to be “vaccinations” then the CDC should stop referring to them as “vaccinations”.

        • 0 avatar
          sirwired

          @96redse5sp “If the CDC doesn’t consider the Covid shots to be “vaccinations” then the CDC should stop referring to them as “vaccinations”.”

          Except the CDC totally does think of them as vaccinations, and I have no idea why somebody would think otherwise.

          • 0 avatar
            mcs

            The definition of a vaccine comes from the National Library of Medicine. That’s the official definition the CDC uses.

            https://medlineplus.gov/vaccines.html

            From the National Library of Medicine definition:

            Vaccines are injections (shots), liquids, pills, or nasal sprays that you take to teach your body’s immune system to recognize and defend against harmful germs. For example, there are vaccines to protect against viruses, like the ones that cause the flu and COVID-19. Bacteria, including tetanus, diphtheria, and pertussis

            here are several types of vaccines:

            Live-attenuated vaccines use a weakened form of the germ

            Inactivated vaccines use a killed version of the germ

            Subunit, recombinant, polysaccharide, and conjugate vaccines use only specific pieces of the germ, such as its protein, sugar, or casing

            Toxoid vaccines that use a toxin (harmful product) made by the germ

            mRNA vaccines use messenger RNA, which gives your cells instructions for how to make a protein or (piece of a protein) of the germ

            Viral vector vaccines use genetic material, which gives your cells instructions for making a protein of the germ. These vaccines also contain a different, harmless virus that helps get the genetic material into your cells.

    • 0 avatar
      96redse5sp

      @28 Cars

      Maybe I’m not understanding what you’re attempting to write, but are you claiming that 6400 Americans have died as a result of receiving Covid vaccinations? Because I don’t believe that’s true. Where did you get that information from.

      And you are aware that the Covid vaccines HAVE been proven to be phenomenally effective at preventing serious illness and mortality from Covid and all its variants – including Delta.

      Where did you get your official definition of “vaccine” from. You don’t cite any sources, and I’ve seen the same exact argument circulated among Q-Anon adherents. If you’re getting your official definitions and/or “your understanding of the facts” from “Q” or from Q-Anon, in all fairness, you should probably mention that…

      It’s great to be circumspect, but you weren’t born with any of this information. You must be getting your information from some source.

      • 0 avatar
        thornmark

        only doofuses talk about Q

        medical dictionary:

        “vaccine [vak-sēn´]
        a suspension of attenuated or killed microorganisms (viruses, bacteria, or rickettsiae), administered for prevention, amelioration, or treatment of infectious diseases.”

        https://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/vaccine

        • 0 avatar
          Lou_BC

          @thornmark – that’s an old definition. mRNA isn’t mentioned. There are at least 4 ways to make vaccines.
          https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DlFjIVIIcCvc&ved=2ahUKEwiK48XnmZby

          • 0 avatar
            mcs

            Medline and some others are more accurate and up to date.

            https://medlineplus.gov/vaccines.html

            Vaccines are injections (shots), liquids, pills, or nasal sprays that you take to teach your body’s immune system to recognize and defend against harmful germs.

        • 0 avatar
          96redse5sp

          According to the CDC, the Covid “vaccine” is not a vaccine unless it prevents you from being infected with Covid. Don’t argue with me. That’s the CDC’s own definition.

          And I mention “Q” because I’m being charitable. I’d like to feel that people are being lead astray by an organized entity – rather than contemplate how many selfish, uneducated, deceitful, inconsiderate Americans there are who are completely devoid of critical thinking skills… Maybe “Q” is just the opposite side of that same coin…

          • 0 avatar
            sirwired

            @96redse5sp COVID is a disease. Which the vaccines totally do protect you from; the efficacy against hospitalization or death is as good as any vaccine every made for serious disease. (There are other vaccinations that don’t prevent infection, but do prevent disease; the COVID vaccines are not unique in that regard at all. Tetanus, Diptheria, and Shingles are the first that come to mind… with Shingles you were already infected decades before ever getting the shot!)

            *SARS-CoV-2* is the infection, which the vaccines provide some protection against, though not as much with Delta as the other strains.

            There’s no contradiction here. You can get a COVID vaccine, have it considered effective (because you aren’t in the hospital or morgue), but still fight off a SARS-CoV-2 infection, which you may not even know you had.

        • 0 avatar
          96redse5sp

          Your going to quote from a “medical dictionary” and pretend that the CDC itself hasn’t specifically defined the term? Are you saying that the CDC is not a good source or accurate resource?

          “Definition of Terms

          Immunity: Protection from an infectious disease. If you are immune to a disease, you can be exposed to it without becoming infected.

          Vaccine: A product that stimulates a person’s immune system to produce immunity to a specific disease, protecting the person from that disease. Vaccines are usually administered through needle injections, but can also be administered by mouth or sprayed into the nose.

          Vaccination: The act of introducing a vaccine into the body to produce immunity to a specific disease.”

          That’s directly from the CDC website…

          • 0 avatar
            White Shadow

            Think a bit harder about that CDC definition. Nowhere does it explicitly state that a vaccine must prevent one from CONTRACTING a disease…..it just needs to protect you from the disease. So yeah, the COVID-19 vaccines are clearly vaccines as defined by CDC.

      • 0 avatar
        96redse5sp

        Well, you’re right about one thing. According to the CDC, the Covid “vaccines” are technically not “vaccines” unless they provide you with immunity to actually contracting Covid…

      • 0 avatar
        Lou_BC

        According to the CDC site: “Reports of death after COVID-19 vaccination are rare. More than 342 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines were administered in the United States from December 14, 2020, through July 26, 2021. During this time, VAERS received 6,340 reports of death (0.0019%) among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine. FDA requires healthcare providers to report any death after COVID-19 vaccination to VAERS, even if it’s unclear whether the vaccine was the cause.”

        **even if it’s unclear whether the vaccine was the cause**

        “Doctors and safety monitors carefully review the details of each case to see if it might be linked to the vaccine. There are three deaths that appear to be linked to blood clots that occurred after people got the J&J vaccine. Since we now know how to correctly treat people who develop these blood clots, future deaths related to this very rare side effect can be prevented.
        After careful review of the additional data, doctors have decided that there is no evidence at all that the vaccines contributed to the other patient deaths. Nonetheless, the CDC and FDA will continue to investigate every single report of death (and other adverse events) reported to VAERS.”

        Any death post vaccine gets reported and then analyzed. Most cases were not vaccine related.

        • 0 avatar
          SoCalMikester

          **even if it’s unclear whether the vaccine was the cause**

          doesnt fit in with their “story” and that some of those people were going to die regardless

        • 0 avatar
          slavuta

          Lou, you missed it, I guess,
          Yes CDC only lists 6K+ deaths right now. But 10 days ago there were over 12K. They simply deleted half. Good to have government that is truthful to you, right?

      • 0 avatar
        28-Cars-Later

        Excuse me, 6,207 as of 7/22/21. Apparently there were more but they “fixed the glitch”.

        “Archives of the CDC page in question here show the increase and decrease in the number of deaths reported to VAERS.

        An archived version of the page captured at 17:41 GMT on July 20 shows 6,079 reports of deaths (here).

        The next capture was taken at 21:02 GMT on July 20 showing 12,313 reports of deaths (here).

        The number reverted back to 6,079, as seen in a capture at 18:54 GMT on July 21 (here). It was then updated to 6,207 reports of death in a capture at 01:39 GMT on July 22 (here).

        Curtis Gill, a CDC representative, told Reuters via email that the CDC is aware of an error which took place while data was being uploaded to the page.”

        https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-vaers-deleted-idUSL1N2P91JS

        “Fauci: Early COVID-19 vaccines will only prevent symptoms, not block the virus

        At least four candidates are near the finish line in the U.S. coronavirus vaccine race, but how well they will work remains a question.

        A key point to note, however, is that the vaccine isn’t an end-all solution to the pandemic. ***That’s in large part because any inoculations developed now are focused on simply preventing symptoms from arising, rather than blocking out the virus altogether***.

        ***The latter goal is a secondary endpoint***, according to Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases.

        “The primary thing you want to do is that if people get infected, prevent them from getting sick, and if you prevent them from getting sick, you will ultimately prevent them from getting seriously ill,” Fauci said at Yahoo Finance’s All Markets Summit Monday.

        “What I would settle for, and all of my colleagues would settle for, is the primary endpoint to prevent clinically recognizable disease,” he said.

        That [***vaccine***] level of protection would be the ultimate goal to diffusing the crisis, but is hard to do with companies facing an immediate demand for some sort of solution. While no vaccine is 100% effective, having a majority of the population inoculated and higher percentages of efficacy is the best to hope for. The most effective vaccine is the measles vaccine, which elicits an antibody response 98% of the time.

        So yes, a treatment to prevent severe issues/death is better than nothing but as he said:

        “level of protection would be the ultimate goal to diffusing the crisis, but is hard to do with companies facing an immediate demand for some sort of solution”

        So the crisis will likely NOT END until the level of protection an actual vaccine can provide is achieved. The nCov-19 is a coronavirus in the same vein as the common cold, to which there has never been an effective vaccine though work continues:

        https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-havent-we-cured-the-common-cold-yet/

        Q is disinformation from the people behind this bullsh!t, the Cheka used a similar technique on the Russian Whites in the early 1920s (monarchists, not skin color).

        “Where did you get your official definition of “vaccine” from.”

        From being on Earth for decades prior to 2020. From every doctor I saw as I grew up and received actual vaccinations. From any physical dictionary written through 2010. The meaning of words matters and a common trick is to distort their meaning. Vaccine != treatment, one is preventative the other is a post incident event to mitigate (or cure) the problem.

        I’m sure there is more to the story, but Occam’s Razor suggests we follow the money

        “The company said its vaccine generated $3.5 billion in revenue in the first three months of this year.”

        https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/04/business/pfizer-covid-vaccine-profits.html

        “Pfizer (NYSE: PFE) is expecting its coronavirus vaccine to generate a whopping $33.5 billion in revenue this year. Rival Moderna (NASDAQ: MRNA) is likely to offer an update on its vaccine during its quarterly earnings report on Thursday. During the last report, Moderna said advance purchase agreements for the year represented more than $19 billion in product sales.”

        https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/3-reasons-why-pfizers-and-modernas-vaccine-revenue-growth-is-just-getting-started-2021-08

        Their treatments are a hard sell to anyone not in a specific risk group, so it becomes: F it you all need the treatment with unknown long term side effects for the disease which barely kills anyone over 60 without co-morbidities. Gilead early on also tried to promote its anti-Ebola drug Remdesivir as a treatment which has since been effectively shelved. Had Remdesivir shown better results it may have taken off and a nice chunk of that Pfizer’s $33.5 Billion could have been theirs. FOLLOW THE MONEY.

        • 0 avatar
          FreedMike

          @28:

          “FOLLOW THE MONEY.”

          How much did Pfizer make off getting me two vaccines, and how much would the hospital down the street from me make for putting me in the ICU for three weeks after I got COVID?

          Follow the money, indeed.

          I really don’t see how vaccine manufacturers making money to help with this virus is a problem. What, they should do it for free? That’s not the way it works, and you know it.

          • 0 avatar
            28-Cars-Later

            Please re-read the final paragraph. Its not about profit, its about selling a risky product to a limited audience and then needing to expand the customer base to maximize ROI. This likely wouldn’t be happening if there were liability but oops there is none so why not push it on everyone in society?

          • 0 avatar
            FreedMike

            @28:

            The “customer base” for COVID shots was always the entire population. How is that “a limited audience”?

            Seriously…

          • 0 avatar
            28-Cars-Later

            At risk groups, mostly elderly, are the only responsible customer base due to the unknown long term side effects – especially since it has absolutely been linked to 6,207 deaths and counting. If a person is 60 and in an at risk group, and expected average mortality is 73, there is an argument to be made that even if a long term side effect slightly shortens their lifespan the treatment allows them to live out more than if untreated. The hypothetical patient could live to 73 untreated or he could die at 62 because of [INSERT VARIANT OR COMPLICATION]. Even if the ultimate age is 70 vs 73, getting to that 70 may only be possible through the treatment or it certainly increases the odds of such. That’s all well and good but to subject a 30 year old -whose expected survival rate is already something very high like 99.5%- to something with such unknown side effects *with so little return* is truly barbaric and insane.

            This treatment does not confer immunity, it will never eradicate the virus, the most it will do is prevent unneeded deaths which makes sense for at risk groups. If it did confer even 50% immunity despite the unknown side effects, the ROI changes and perhaps the risks are more palatable. But since it doesn’t, its a limited use product so Pfizer et al and all of the people in between it and the White House have decided to push it on everyone. Pfizer et al -from a business standpoint- are not concerned about the 6,207 deaths which have already occurred their product has become a cash cow and they enjoy total immunity. Even -heaven forbid- that number explodes it will be severely downplayed because the politicians have already chosen their side and would have to save face.

      • 0 avatar
        SoCalMikester

        its embarrassing reading some of this stuff. the smart people get their news from a variety of sources. facebook and 4chan arent legit news sources

        • 0 avatar
          96redse5sp

          And don’t forget the Russian-based “news” services. (Including RT. com, which is sometimes linked to from the Drudge Report).

          • 0 avatar
            sayahh

            Thank you. Even my well-informed, well-meaning friend didn’t know about RT until I told them. Ditto with The Epoch Times. VERY biased.

      • 0 avatar
        geo

        As of 7/23/2021, there were 11,940 cases where the vaccine recipient died upon receiving the vaccine and the case was reported to the VAERS. Was each case directly caused by the vaccine? Probably not. But you can bet that they would have been called “COVID” deaths. This data is released by the CDC every couple of weeks. Read it. People are dying from the vaccines.

        https://www.medalerts.org/vaersdb/findfield.php?TABLE=ON&GROUP1=AGE&EVENTS=ON&VAX=COVID19&DIED=Yes

        • 0 avatar
          FreedMike

          Assuming that’s correct, then that’s 11,940 people who died out of 165 million people vaccinated.

          Meanwhile, of the 35.4 million people who have gotten COVID, 614,000 people have died.

          Draw you own conclusions as to risk.

          • 0 avatar
            geo

            Covid deaths require almost no burden of proof. Questionable, inconclusive, all covid deaths.

            Proving vaccine death is almost insurmountable burden of proof. In a local nursing home, 5 patients died immediately after getting the vaccine, all classified as natural causes.

            Besides, Harvard estimated that adverse reports to the VAERC were under reported by a factor of five.

            Some doctors say that they saw no covid deaths, but multiple vaccine deaths. Draw your own conclusions, but it looks like the vaccines are more dangerous than the virus.

          • 0 avatar
            FreedMike

            …so, basically, the only stats that make sense are the ones you post, despite the fact that you just said the stats themselves make no sense.

            Okey dokey.

            You’re just spitballing. Sorry.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            @geo
            “Covid deaths require almost no burden of proof. Questionable, inconclusive, all covid deaths.’

            I take it you’ve never completed a medical certificate of death?

            https://vaers.hhs.gov/esub/index.jsp

            The VAERS form is pretty simple. It’s a report and needs follow up once submitted.

          • 0 avatar
            Astigmatism

            “Covid deaths require almost no burden of proof. Questionable, inconclusive, all covid deaths.

            Proving vaccine death is almost insurmountable burden of proof.”

            This is the literal opposite of reality. From the VAERS website: “VAERS is a passive reporting system, meaning it relies on individuals to send in reports of their experiences. Anyone can submit a report to VAERS, including parents and patients.” No proof is required, or even requested; while vaccine manufacturers are required to investigate reported adverse events, VAERS data itself is raw input, exactly as reliable as an online poll that shows that Ron Paul will be the next president. Heck, read some of the VAERS submissions yourself:

            “On 02Jan2021, she received the first dose of Pfizer vaccine. On 04Jan2020, she developed a high fever, needed oxygen and was positive for COVID-19. Date of death was 04Jan2021. The cause of her death was listed as pneumonia, respiratory failure and COVID-19. No autopsy performed. No treatment received. No one knew if the vaccination contributed to her death. It was hard to know if her death was due to the administration of the vaccine or it exacerbated the COVID19 symptoms which led to her death. Since this was unknown, it could have been a possibility.”

          • 0 avatar
            Astigmatism

            “This resident had covid a couple months ago. she had a bad heart and also dementia. I do not believe it was the vaccine that killed her. I was instructed by EMS to report because the date of vaccination was three days ago… There were no adverse reactions. Resident Died, she had a history of issues with her health prior to the vaccine.”

            Another one: “Please note that patient is a hospice patient. Death occurred 10 days post vaccination. Providers do not believe that there was a correlation. Facility requires that we reports all death even if we suspect no correlation between death and vaccine. Symptoms: & death.”

          • 0 avatar
            geo

            The CDC ordered cause of death to be listed as COVID-19 even if “probable cause” or “unconfirmed cause” or if test results are inconclusive. See below link. And again, not every VAERS-reported death was caused by the vaccine. But not all COVID deaths were caused by COVID either. The completely different burden of proof matters hugely here.

            Why did my friend’s 24-year-old, healthy son just die of a heart attack after getting the vaccine? Doctors are still “investigating”, but so far there’s no proof it was caused by the vaccine. Why did the local nursing home have five deaths immediately after vaccination? Again, no proof. Do you think for a second that these wouldn’t have been called “COVID deaths” had they been infected?

            Do your own research. The deaths are many. And now they’re going after children, who aren’t even at risk. COVID deaths are exaggerated. Vaccine deaths are suppressed.

            https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvss/coronavirus/Alert-2-New-ICD-code-introduced-for-COVID-19-deaths.pdf?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

        • 0 avatar
          sayahh

          @geo: People cry about non-COVID deaths being classified as COVID so that hospitals will get more money. That was implied in “Plandemic” but was debunked. But what about the COVID deaths that the deceased’s family were too embarrassed about and begged doctors to not put down COVID as cause of death?

          https://news.yahoo.com/missouri-county-coroner-removed-covid-110916037.html

        • 0 avatar
          sayahh

          Did you personally survey how many of your friends did not die after getting vaccinated? Even if it is anecdotal, please do it so that you know what’s happening around your own community and not listen to articles from the left or the right or the neutral. Just ask all your friends privately and see how many died from the vaccine (aside from your friend’s 23 y.o. kid).

    • 0 avatar
      APaGttH

      Then your “vaccination” was not a vaccination because the whole point of actual vaccination is to prevent you from getting X in the first place.

      Link to ANY vaccination that is 100% effective.

      ANY – link must come from a reputable source and be backed by a peer-review study.

      I’m setting the bar super low for you.

      I will give you a hint – the answer is none exists.

      No vax for anything is 100% effective.
      Birth control pills aren’t 100% effective.
      Wearing a seatbelt is not 100% effective in not dying in a car accident either.

      • 0 avatar
        28-Cars-Later

        Bit of a straw man, APaGttH. The argument isn’t no vaccine is 100% effective, its this treatment isn’t a vaccine but a treatment to lessen severe symptoms and unneeded deaths. Therefore to Tim’s point yes the “vaccinated” can still become ill despite being “vaccinated” but their survival rate has (in theory) increased and according to some studies whose ability to spread has decreased by some amount (most generous I have read is 40%, but it was a very biased source. Likely 20% on average IMO).

        • 0 avatar
          SoCalMikester

          The 6,207 number of reported deaths remains on the website as of publishing, making up 0.0018 percent among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine after more than 339 million doses were administered in the U.S. (here). These deaths, however, are not confirmed to be causal.

        • 0 avatar
          FreedMike

          @28:

          “The argument isn’t no vaccine is 100% effective, its this treatment isn’t a vaccine but a treatment to lessen severe symptoms and unneeded deaths.”

          And this is a bad thing…because?

      • 0 avatar
        96redse5sp

        For some reason, I can’t comment directly on Geo’s comment:

        “Some doctors say that they saw no covid deaths, but multiple vaccine deaths. Draw your own conclusions…”

        That “some doctors say” part is classic. Yeah. I can draw some conclusions from that. Some doctors are laughing and saying that’s complete bullshit. Draw your own conclusions…

        • 0 avatar
          sayahh

          I cannot reply to geo neither. Is geo a mod or something?

          @geo: do people die from vaccines? Yes. One death is anecdotal, just like one case of voter fraud and one person dying from drinking Red Bull or Monster.

          People are advised to drink lots of water before and after their vaccination and also to not exercise vigorously for 24 (or was it 48?) hours after getting the vaccine, as mRNA vaccines might cause heart related issues.

          People, especially children, are also advise to not consume too much caffeine. Way before any pandemic, many HS athletes have collapsed and later died after consuming multiple cans of energy drinks, but I digress.

          @EBFlex: you yourself wrote that your info came from a Washington Post “opinion” piece. ANYBODY can write a piece and be potentially published by left or right wing periodical’s opinion/editorial board. So unless it’s an article from AP, Reuters or a peer-reviewed medical journal, it’s not reliable.

          As for masks, I wear them after two Moderna doses to protect myself and my (I cannot believe this) unvaccinated and unmasked coworkers. Plus, with the rampant delta, the delta plus and several unnamed variants going around and further potential for newer, more deadly and contagious variants, I do not want to take a chance? especially when there is no Univeraal Healthcare in the US and one can literally go bankrupt after single major medical emergency event. Masks are cheap; double lung transplants are not. If I am wrong, then worse case scenario would be that I looked silly. I didn’t lose my freedoms because I chose my own health and safety over ppl telling me that if I wore them then I am a sheep and that people died from vaccines…someone who tested positive 3 times, no less. (I had the Pfizer option available to me but I chose Moderna as both of my parents got it and they didn’t have side effects. One of my coworkers who is unvaccinated was the one who tested positive 3 times and he wonders why I ignore and avoid him.)

          GOP had no problem requiring HPV vaccine for girls and people coming in to the US. Funny how nobody’s freedom was violated in their eyes when that wend down.

          Why did the CDC prematurely allowed vacconated ppl to not have to wear masks? Political pressure. Same reason why there is a recall in California: because one side politicized it for their ulterior political motive. Also, CDC said it was okay for “vaccinated people” to not wear masks. Problem was that it was an honor system, and non-vaccinated ppl just kept on not wearing masks and ruined it for everyone.

    • 0 avatar
      mcs

      Vaccines are to stimulate an immune response in your body. That response can vary from individual to individual. Your ability to defend against a virus depends on the level of your particular immune response and the viral load you are exposed to. Masks help because they can reduce the viral load you are hit with. It’s like motorcycle body armor. It’s not going to protect you from everything and its effectiveness depends on speed and the type of accident. It’s all about mitigation.

    • 0 avatar
      EBFlex

      “ Then your “vaccination” was not a vaccination because the whole point of actual vaccination is to prevent you from getting X in the first place. Its a treatment designed to keep you from developing severe symptoms or dying, along with some amount of prevention of further spread with unknown long term side effects and a short time side effect of death for an unfortunate 6400+ Americans.”

      Let us not forget the lies that have been told to us regarding the vaccine as well. If we get it all will be fine. No masks because you have a vaccine. Two weeks to slow the spread. Masks work. All lies proven by actual data.

      And let’s not forget how the liberals including the installed president and Vice President were indirectly telling people not to get the vaccine and that it couldn’t be trusted.

      As for masks, it’s been proven they don’t work. The data shows it and even Fauci said it. So stop with the virtue signaling, release the actual facts on the delta variant (contagious yes but far less severe and far less deadly than the last variant that had a 99.998 survival rate. Inform people that a lot of Red Tide illnesses in Florida are being classified as Covid (because we have to keep the numbers up). It’s all a sham driven by the liberal need to oppressively control people.

      • 0 avatar
        Arthur Dailey

        @EBFlex: everything that you posted above is misinformation or untrue. Just one example being the scientific studies conducted on masks posted multiple times by @LouBC.

        • 0 avatar
          EBFlex

          Actually no. It’s all 100% true. Pull your head out of the sand and do some research. You don’t even have to dig that deep to find the truth.

          • 0 avatar
            Arthur Dailey

            @EB we have and I even mentioned information that @loubc has posted on this site multiple times. You on the other hand have not posted any reputable links or statistics.

            Are masks required when you go out into Red Square?

      • 0 avatar
        White Shadow

        Aliens from another galaxy have infiltrated Florida and have been infecting residents with Krackarian Space Flu. Society is doomed!

      • 0 avatar
        sayahh

        Masks work. Not 100% doesn’t mean that it doesn’t work. The person wearing them voluntarily are likely ppl who are cautious; the people not wearing them are likely people who think that they are somehow patriotic by standing up to authority. Tell me: did you ask your own primary care doctor if masks help?

        Does condoms not being 100% effective alao mean that men should stop wearing condoms? Not wonder there are so many unplanned pregnancies and STDs…

        Weird: only liberals and the entire rest of the world believe in global warming and mask-wearing and vaccinations, therefore EVERYBODY ELSE muat be wrong and you must be right. Got it.

    • 0 avatar
      docoski

      To the point about purpose of immunization: COVID-19 vaccines are designed to prevent severe disease. They do. They were not designed to provide sterilizing immunity, which is the term where someone is exposed to an agent to which they’ve been immunized and they have sufficient mucosal immunity such as to prevent the infection from colonizing the host, or establishing a beachhead. No, the COVID-19 vaccines allow a successful beachhead, colonizing one’s nose or nasopharynx, then are supposed to annihilate the bastards on the beach before they get inland to your organs. So it’s while the agent is on the beach of your nose it can launch operations to infect others but repelled from infecting the host that makes it dangerous and the wear of masks by all essential.

      • 0 avatar
        28-Cars-Later

        “COVID-19 vaccines are designed to prevent severe disease.”

        False, they are designed to lessen symptoms so they do not become severe and could lead to death. They do not prevent COVID-19 from occurring in the vaccinated person’s body or kill it if it does enter.

        “A key point to note, however, is that the vaccine isn’t an end-all solution to the pandemic. ***That’s in large part because any inoculations developed now are focused on simply preventing symptoms from arising, rather than blocking out the virus altogether***.

        ***The latter goal is a secondary endpoint***, according to Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases.

        “The primary thing you want to do is that if people get infected, prevent them from getting sick, and if you prevent them from getting sick, you will ultimately prevent them from getting seriously ill,” Fauci said at Yahoo Finance’s All Markets Summit Monday.

        “What I would settle for, and all of my colleagues would settle for, is the primary endpoint to prevent clinically recognizable disease,” he said.”

        https://finance.yahoo.com/news/fauci-vaccines-will-only-prevent-symptoms-not-block-the-virus-195051568.html

        • 0 avatar
          FreedMike

          @28:

          ““COVID-19 vaccines are designed to prevent severe disease.”

          False, they are designed to lessen symptoms so they do not become severe and could lead to death. ”

          Both quotes say the same thing, in essence. What, exactly, are you trying to say here?

          • 0 avatar
            28-Cars-Later

            “prevent severe disease”

            is not the same as:

            “prevent severe symptoms”

            The patient still has COVID-19 as it was NOT prevented, but their symptoms were made less severe.

          • 0 avatar
            FreedMike

            @28:

            You’re actually trying to make some big distinction between severe disease and severe symptoms? The bottom line is that the vaccines lessen severity. Call it symptom severity or disease severity. Your choice.

            You’re REALLY reaching here.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            “prevent severe disease”

            is not the same as:

            “prevent severe symptoms”

            Severe disease typically precedes severe symptoms. A symptom is just the manifestation of disease.
            If you prevent severe disease you prevent severe symptoms. You can in theory manage a symptom and still have disease. Typically they are hand in glove.

        • 0 avatar
          docoski

          Ok Dwight. No one has said these provide sterilizing immunity, and they do not, were not designed to do so, yet are tremendously valuable. Sterilizing immunity requires robust IgA production among other immune factors, these chiefly drive internal immunity with IgG and cell-mediated immunity throughout one’s organs. We need vaccines and masks. Full stop.

    • 0 avatar
      Greg Hamilton

      When looking at the bigger picture sometimes reviewing history can provide some light. Here is a quote from Anthony Sutton as interviewed by Kris Milligan:
      Millegan – What do you see for the future?

      Anthony Sutton – Chaos, confusion and ultimately a battle between the individual and the State.

      The individual is the stronger; and will win.

      The state is a fiction sanctified by Hegel and his followers to CONTROL the individual.

      Sooner or later people will wake up.

      First we have to dump the trap of right and left, this is a Hegelian trap to divide and control.

      The battle is not between right and left; it is between us and them…

      The spirit of G_d is within us as individuals. Skull & Bones represents death. It has no life spirit and pretends that the State “is the march of G_d on earth”.

      The thinking of immature juveniles, deadly and destructive and has almost totally infected Washington.

      What to do? Find yourself and then go to work…..tell your friends and put out the message.

      The answer is within you.

      • 0 avatar
        Arthur Dailey

        @Gus your political beliefs have obscured your ability to objectively review the science or the statistics. Or even the history of pandemics and vaccines.

    • 0 avatar
      SoCalMikester

      state media? really? oh lawdy. just clicked over to the QTard channel, and its nothing but whining over their latest “culture shock”. sorry, but LGBTQ, blacks and mexicans are gonna be sticking around. dont like it? dont live near them

    • 0 avatar
      NormSV650

      I thought this was a flu shot?

      • 0 avatar
        sayahh

        Flu deaths went down dramatically since ppl started wearing masks and worked from home or stayed home. So much so that some flu strains might be/become extinct.

    • 0 avatar
      Snooder

      “the whole point of actual vaccination is to prevent you from getting X in the first place”

      That’s not how vaccines work.

      Vaccines work by introducing your body to a weakened form of a virus. What this does is allow your body to develop antibodies to the virus so that when you are exposed to the regular virus, you already have antibodies ready to fight off the infection.

      That’s it. That’s what the vaccine does. Sometimes having more antibodies ready faster means that you totally kill the virus before it takes root. More often, it means that you still get the infection, but your symptoms are less severe. Maybe even so light that you don’t even notice. Very, very rarely, if your antibodies suck, or the particular virus you got has mutated enough, you ends up still getting seriously ill.

      The difference between a “vaccine” and a “treatment” is that a vaccine promotes creation of antibodies to fight the infection (killing the virus) while a treatment attempts to alleviate the symptoms of infection. Sometimes the treatment might also boost your immune system, but it is not at all the same thing as a vaccine.

  • avatar
    SCE to AUX

    The word ‘incentive’ is often tied to the idea that the views of anti-maskers and anti-vaxxers can somehow be changed.

    Many anti-vaxxers take their opinions to the grave, gasping for air in the hospital, while those around them blame China, Biden, or the patient’s underlying health condition for their death.

    I think I’m done trying to change anyone’s mind.

    It’s amazing that people will vaccinate their pets, but not themselves.

    • 0 avatar
      Lou_BC

      In Canada some provinces are offering cash prizes to get people vaccinated. There was a study done in Alberta which is arguably the most conservative province in Canada. They did find that education level was a greater determinant for anti-vaccination than politics but “we” aren’t as polarized as the USA. The interesting side bar to that study was that the researchers found that if you made a sincere attempt at education, you could shift the opinion of the lower educated anti-vaxers.The anti-vaxers with college or higher levels of education were rigidly fixed in their opinions and any fact based education was ineffective. I found that interesting but not completely surprising.

      • 0 avatar
        SCE to AUX

        It’s ironic that smarter people tend to be less teachable.

        Since I’m already vaccinated, where’s my cash prize?

        • 0 avatar
          FreedMike

          I’m thinking my cash prize is the bazillion dollar copay from the ER / ICU stay, which I get to skip because I got vaccinated.

          Yet another reason to wise up and get the shot, if you ask me.

          In fact, I wonder if a PSA showing how much a COVID related hospital stay can cost might work.

        • 0 avatar
          Lou_BC

          @SCE to AUX – “smarter” isn’t necessarily tied to education levels. A mistake that most professionals make is assuming “the truth will set you free”. There are multiple barriers to learning and applying that knowledge to decision making.

      • 0 avatar
        Arthur Dailey

        @Lou, there is a historical reason why Alberta is ‘the most conservative province’ and it has to do with the settlement of Alberta. A great many Americans were the earliest settlers as Alberta was the last area of western North America to open up. They brought with them a strong conservative, evangelical Christian philosophy. Hence the long term domination of the Social Credit Party, led by two preachers, Bible Bill Aberhart and then E.C. Manning. Manning’s son Preston founded the Reform Party.

        From a history on the settlement patterns of Alberta:

        “Immigrants from the United States played a very prominent role in the early settlement of Alberta. American ranch hands came to the Territories in the 1880s and 1890s looking for work on the southern ranches. Others spread northward along the railways as far as Edmonton and Fort Saskatchewan. By 1891 more than 1200 Americans had settled in Alberta.

        When the American frontier closed and free land was no longer available in the western states, American pioneers attracted by government publications began to make their way to the Canadian prairies. By 1901 there were nearly 6,000 American citizens in Alberta but, interestingly enough, nearly 11,000 of all immigrants had been born in the United States. Over the next two decades, from 1900-1915 approximately
        82,000 Americans arrived in the province, and by 1916 those of American birth constituted nearly 19% of the total population.”

    • 0 avatar
      APaGttH

      There is a guy on Tik Tok in Texas.

      His last six videos:

      6 – Father’s Day on the beach in Corpus Christi

      5 – On BIPAP in the hospital – hey – I got COVID – but I’m going to fight this

      4- Someone had replied to his video, “I won’t believe unless you die.” Responding to the comment. Still on BIPAP

      3 – I’m going to beat this – clearly breathing harder – yes – I’ll admit it – I didn’t get the vax

      2 – Full face mask, BIPAP as hard as they can set it – I’m going to beat this – take this seriously

      1 – can barely breathe – I didn’t get vaxxed – it’s a mistake – I’ll get vaxxed after I beat this – please get the vax

      That was July 22

      The wife commented on that final video he is now in a coma and on life support. She did not specify what life support meant (e.g. ECMO vs. ventilator).

      Survival odds once you go on a vent remain very low – which is why hospitals now won’t put a person on one until every possible option is exhausted.

      Veteran, father of a young daughter.

      What a waste.

      • 0 avatar
        Lou_BC

        @APaGttH – We didn’t have ECMO when I worked ICU and since it was a more rural site, we probably still don’t have it.

        ARDS regardless of the cause is a brutal way to die. Agonal respirations occur as a brainstem reflex and is painful to watch as a family member. The patient “on life support” is quite literally gasping for air while fully ventilated.

        Anyone who has gone fishing and flopped a big fish in the bottom of the boat and let it die has seen this form of breathing. It was nicknamed “guppy breathing”.

    • 0 avatar
      EBFlex

      “ Many anti-vaxxers take their opinions to the grave, ”

      Think Biden, Harris, and the other liberals will take their anti vaccination opinions to the grave?

      • 0 avatar
        Lou_BC

        @EBFlex – I see that you keep trying to sell that same turd. There’s several you keep in your rotation. Pathetic.

        • 0 avatar
          dukeisduke

          They both publicly said during the 2020 campaign that they didn’t trust the vaccine because it was developed under the Trump administration. As soon as January 20th rolled around, and they took office, they changed their tune.

          • 0 avatar
            EBFlex

            “ They both publicly said during the 2020 campaign that they didn’t trust the vaccine because it was developed under the Trump administration. As soon as January 20th rolled around, and they took office, they changed their tune”

            Lou MR can’t be bothered with facts when he’s nothing but a sheep that will believe anything he’s told from the libs.

          • 0 avatar
            FreedMike

            Actually, what Harris said was that she didn’t trust Trump’s word alone that the vaccine – which at that point didn’t exist – was effective.

            https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/05/politics/kamala-harris-not-trust-trump-vaccine-cnntv/index.html

            This one is turning out to be a variant on the Al Gore “I invented the Internet” right wing talking point.

        • 0 avatar
          EBFlex

          The Washington post had an opinion piece calling out Harris for her comments that were most certainly against the vaccine.

          Funny how you can do all sorts of research into things that you believe in but when someone posts something easily proven that you disagree with it’s untrue.

          Talk about fitting your party’s stereotype

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            Sep. 16, 2020 — “I trust vaccines. I trust scientists. But I don’t trust Donald Trump.”

            “Democratic vice presidential nominee Kamala Harris said that President Donald Trump’s word alone on any potential coronavirus vaccine is not enough.”

            That’s considerably different than distrusting the vaccine.

            Typical EB bullsh!t

          • 0 avatar
            FreedMike

            @Lou:

            Give him a break – he wore out the “Al Gore invented the Internet BS and needs a new low-IQ tagline.”

          • 0 avatar
            EBFlex

            More Lou MR deny facts because he’s afraid of them. Typical liberal. Deny deny deny truth and facts because you can just substitute your own made up fairy tale facts. From the Washington post:

            “ First, she refused to say whether she would take a vaccine, because “I think that we have learned … that there’s very little that we can trust that can comes out of Donald Trump’s mouth.” Then she questioned whether we could trust public health experts who vouch for the vaccine because they “will be muzzled, they will be suppressed, they will be sidelined, because he’s looking at an election coming up in less than 60 days, and he’s grasping for whatever he can get to pretend that he has been a leader on this issue, when he has not.” Asked again if she would take a vaccine, she replied, “I will not take his word for it.” Only when asked yet again if she would trust Anthony S. Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, she finally allowed, “Yes, I trust Dr. Fauci.”
            For Harris to undermine public confidence in a vaccine for political gain is shameful. Every candidate vaccine has already passed safety trials. They are now being studied for efficacy. To question their safety, without a shred of evidence, puts lives at risk.”

          • 0 avatar
            EBFlex

            “ Give him a break – he wore out the “Al Gore invented the Internet BS and needs a new low-IQ tagline.”

            Yeah I’ve actually never said that but continue to make things up. You’ve been doing a great job of that in all of these threads about the masks yet when pressed you cannot defend your position. It’s actually comical how out of touch with reality you and Lou MR really are. It’s one thing to deny facts or object to reasonable questions and skepticism but it’s a whole other level of stupid to deny recent history.

            And for what? Because some people would rather not take a vaccine or display a healthy level of skepticism as to having something injected into them that normally takes 10 years to develop and instead has taken 9 months? Or the fact that it’s nobody’s business if I have or have not had a vaccine?

            Whatever happened to the liberals favorite line “my body my choice”? Murdering babies is a-ok and nobody should interfere but when it comes to an experimental vaccine developed in 9 months people should be forced to get it. Only a liberal could come up with something so hypocritical

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            @ebflex- lol. She said she would trust Fauci and not the orange onetime wonder.
            You add nothing to the debate.

            Troll away little man, troll away.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            @EBFlex – what you are doing is orangewashing (whitewashing) the one-term wonder’s piss poor term in office with feeble attempts to shift blame onto the opposing party.

            It’s pathetic.

  • avatar
    Sobro

    Mask-debating for clicks. You people should be ashamed. Just open an OilyFans account and own it.

  • avatar
    Arthur Dailey

    I tend to agree that this and Mat’s column of yesterday were somewhat unecessary on this site.

    The science regarding the pandemic is now overwhelming (thanks Ron DeSantis) and basically dispels the claims of the antis.

    Since science is not on their side, then they might resort to commenting regarding ‘individual rights’. However jurisprudence is against them as governments have for at least a century implemented mandated rules that have ‘infringed’ on individual rights as public safety measures. Inspections of food processing/packers, building permits, drivers licensing, seatbelt laws, rules regarding the purchase and consumption of tobacco and alcohol and rules making narcotic possession and sales criminal are all examples.

    • 0 avatar
      ajla

      “However jurisprudence is against them ”

      Unless the laws get changed.

    • 0 avatar
      Lou_BC

      “I tend to agree that this and Mat’s column of yesterday were somewhat unnecessary on this site.”

      There was the GM mask story, then the Ford mask story, then Matt’s and now this.

      The same arguments keep getting made in the comments sections. Nothing really new has been added to the discussion. The anti-mask and anti-vaccine types are unchanged in their views and the pro-mask and pro-vaccine group is still unchanged.

      The better editorial approach would be to ask the question, “Where do we share common ground?”

      That’s always the starting point to bridging chasms and over time filling them in.

      Everyone seems to want a 2021 version of a fleet spec cheap manual transmission 70’s era regular cab small pickup and brown manual diesel wagon.

      I’d spend my disposable income on motorcycles and pickups….

    • 0 avatar
      slavuta

      But you see, unlike a narcotic that you intake at your own will, vaccine is something gov. wants to inject into you. How is it different from Sweden’s forced sterilization program? Or for that matter, forced pregnancy during Nazi Germany?

      • 0 avatar
        mcs

        @slavuta: “How is it different from Sweden’s forced sterilization program? Or for that matter, forced pregnancy during Nazi Germany?”

        Okay, let’s see.. it doesn’t sterilize you and it doesn’t get you pregnant. Any more questions?

        Has your brother gotten his vaccination yet? I know his lab is now requiring it.

  • avatar
    Imagefont

    There are two different kinds of people in the world:
    The “I’ve got mine, you get yours” kind,
    And the “We’re all in this together” kind.
    I’m in the second group. I have a responsibility to others, even though I’m pretty healthy, to not go out of my way to endanger other people who aren’t so fortunate and do not enjoy good health. A neighbor of mine was in the hospital for a month a few years ago after he contracted West Nile Virus. I could have had it and not known, he damn near died. Another neighbor of mine died of COVID. It was recovering after getting out of the hospital, but it was taking a very long time. He then fell and broke his femur and was back in the hospital for an operation to fix it. That was too much, he couldn’t recover from surgery and COVID symptoms and he died a short time later. I don’t want to kill my neighbors so I’m careful for the sake of other around me. But some people don’t give a damn, they only care about themselves.

  • avatar
    ajla

    “Nor do I think it’s a violation of free speech or the First Amendment *for the government to work with companies* like Facebook to stop misinformation. Stopping misinformation/disinformation is not the same as censoring ideologies.”

    There is a greater zero chance that you would lose that court case. One can be civilly liable for spreading misinformation but the stack of court cases stating outright lying is protected speech is much larger than those saying it is not. Facebook can set its own moderation policy but government’s involvement would need to be extremely minimal.

    • 0 avatar
      FreedMike

      When it comes to outright political speech, lying is protected unless “actual malice” is proven. Times v. Sullivan.

      (This legal cite courtesy of FreedMike, who aced journalism law.)

      This is the reason why politicians can get away with smearing the living f**k out of each other and media outlets can publish said smearing without fear of being sued. Non political speech is another ballgame – remember all those celebs suing the National Enquirer and winning?

      Having said that, there is certainly a political aspect to COVID, but saying “get vaccinated” isn’t an overtly political message – it’s really no different than the government saying “eat your veggies – they’re good for you.” I don’t think anyone can reasonably look at that statement and say it’s political.

      • 0 avatar
        Arthur Dailey

        @FreedMike, thanks. There is a remarkable parliamentary tradition that applies in Canada and some other Commonwealth nations. Politicians can speak with relative impunity while on the confines of ‘Parliament Hill’ with the exception of calling another politician a ‘liar’/ accusing them of lying.

        Funny how being accused of lying sets off the hackles of so many politicians.

      • 0 avatar
        APaGttH

        it’s really no different than the government saying “eat your veggies – they’re good for you.” I don’t think anyone can reasonably look at that statement and say it’s political.

        Clearly this is a liberal agenda to turn us all into vegans and destroy the meat industry. Then, when soybeans has feminized all the men, we’ll all be put into FEMA camps for gay conversion to control the population.

        There is a video out there if you do a search and tons more evidence of the broccoli conspiracy – I’m not a sheep!

        Why do you think KFC sells a sandwich with no bread and Taco Bell has a taco with a meat shell. They are fighting the system. That’s why Trump eats all that McDonalds.

        Real Americans eat meat. You get your vitamins from being outside in the sun and eating beef. Eating carrots to protect your eyes is a World War II lie.

        END THE LIES!

        • 0 avatar
          ajla

          That’s dumb, but it’s still protected from the government stopping you from saying it.

          • 0 avatar
            FreedMike

            @ajla:
            What this boils down to is the conflict between private property rights (i.e., Facebook and other social media sites) and First Amendment rights.

            And the courts are clear on this. You can’t show up on your neighbor’s front yard and start preaching about anti-vax conspiracies unless your neighbor gives you the go ahead.

            You can’t go on Facebook and and start preaching about anti-vax conspiracies unless Facebook gives you the go ahead.

            Meanwhile, you are free to pretty much say whatever BS you want…on public property. And if you can find a social media site that will allow you to spread anti-vax lies, then, well…that’s the site’s business.

            In the fight between private property rights and the First Amendment, property rights will win out ten times out of ten.

          • 0 avatar
            ajla

            I’ve said several times that under current laws Facebook can set whatever moderation policy it wants.

            Working with the government to set its moderation policy is where things would get questionable and I expect would be disallowed. Meanwhile, the government dictating a moderation policy would almost certainly be unconstitutional.

          • 0 avatar
            FreedMike

            @ajla:

            I’m not sure how we got from “the government is working with Facebook to stop disinformation” to “the government is dictating to Facebook.”

            The government can’t dictate anything to Facebook unless it gets a court order.

          • 0 avatar
            ajla

            I wanted to point out that there could be an argument made based on collaboration versus mandate. However, I don’t think either would survive through the courts.

        • 0 avatar
          28-Cars-Later

          Mr. President, we cannot allow a mineshaft gap!

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            I do find it ironic that the cheeto-king starts GETTR to have his own soundboard and it gets overrun by ISIS extremists.

            There’s always a need for a certain degree of control.

  • avatar
    FreedMike

    The whole mask debate is the dumbest debate in the history of dumb debates. Do masks prevent COVID 100% of the time? No. But they do help, they’re cheap, they’re easy to use, and they aren’t invasive. What’s the problem?

    In fact, I’d have to think that the anti-vax crowd, whose argument boils down to “vaccines are unnecessarily invasive”, would be lining up to wear these things. Some protection is better than none, right? Apparently not. I suspect we’re just dealing with the equivalent of the coal-rollers – they are just being difficult for the hell of it.

    • 0 avatar
      SCE to AUX

      The problem, of course, is that my rights are being trampled. MAGA. /s

      It’s a version of the old Cold War slogan “better dead than red”.

    • 0 avatar
      cardave5150

      I would guess that a Venn diagram containing “Coal-Rollers” and “Anti-Vaxxers” would contain a gigantic overlap between the 2 groups.

    • 0 avatar
      96redse5sp

      Your examples about the restrictions of the 1st Amendment are a littler confusing. I’m not sure where you learned Constitutional Law.

      You absolutely CAN go on Facebook and preach anti-vax theories. People do that all the time. That’s not a 1st Amendment issue. And you can do so without the “go-ahead” from Facebook. People do that all the time also. And that is not a 1st Amendment issue. And FB can remove your post with impunity. That action does not implicate the 1st Amendment.

      If you show up ON neighbor’s lawn preaching anti-vax conspiracies, and he doesn’t want you there, you can be arrested, but that has nothing to do with what your saying or the 1st Amendment. That’s simple trespass. Even if you say absolutely nothing, that’s simple trespass. It’s not illegal to SAY THINGS while you’re on somebody’s property. It’s illegal to BE on somebody’s property without their consent and absent their permission. If you are 1 mm away from a person’s private property line, the 1st Amendment gives the right to say pretty much whatever you want, without being subject to arrest (within well-established limits, obviously).

      • 0 avatar
        FreedMike

        CAN you go on Facebook and preach a bunch of garbage? Sure. Can they delete the posts? Yes. The site is their private property, and their private property rights overrule your 1st Amendment rights 10 times out of 10. Take it to court and you WILL lose.

        The only question is whether Facebook – or any other private property owner – CHOOSES to tell you to delete your posts. They reserve that right, but can choose not to exercise it, just as your neighbor could choose to let someone on his lawn with a protest sign. Their property, their choice. The only difference is that Facebook has no right to press criminal charges against someone posting on their site without permission; your neighbor would.

        I don’t think this changes or weakens what I said earlier.

  • avatar
    sirwired

    The “Except what would be the utility of getting vaccinated when the decision literally serves as an example that you’ll still be subjected to COVID restrictions?”

    That was the most-asinine garbage that tuned me out of the rest of the article. The answer is utterly banal: “Staying out of the hospital or morgue isn’t ‘utility’ enough?” It’s almost as if he’s still in the mindset of expecting a lollipop and a sticker after a doctor’s appointment.

  • avatar
    96redse5sp

    One major miscalculation in all this is that the government and the lberal media needs to be scrupulously honest about the facts presented. Even when their hearts are in the right place and they mean well. And they’re not.

    Fauci thought he was doing the right thing when he falsely announced early on that mask wearing by the general public was unnecessary. He knew that was untrue, but he did so to allow health care professionals to have adequate access to masks. I get that. But it was untrue at the time and has fed into conspiracy theories and another example as to why people feel justified in not trusting the government.

    Right now, liberal media will not acknowledge that blacks and Hispanics are disproportionately represented among the Covid deaths and the the unvaxxed. The general perception is that the unvaxxed are almost entirely Republicans and that they’re the ones dying as a result. And right wing media and Trump Republicans sure as hell aren’t going to acknowledge that either. They want this pandemic to continue because it gives them ammunition to use against Biden and immigrants, and if it counties to disproportionately take out a segment of the population that typically votes Democrat, it’s a win/win.

    Of course the right wing media (Fox News, Onan America, talk radio in general, the Russian press) should also be scrupulously honest, but in fairness, they really don’t even pretend to me and educated people don’t expect them to be…

    • 0 avatar
      Arthur Dailey

      Unfortunately that is largely true/correct.

    • 0 avatar
      FreedMike

      “Right now, liberal media will not acknowledge that blacks and Hispanics are disproportionately represented among the Covid deaths and the the unvaxxed.”

      Not even remotely true.
      https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/20/health/racial-disparities-covid-19-vaccinations/index.html

      https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/03/us/vaccine-hesitancy-younger-americans-georgia/index.html

      https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/06/health/african-americans-vaccine-hesistancy.html

      https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/why-covid-vaccine-skepticism-such-problem-black-brown-communities-n1255924

      The thing that differentiates anti-vaxxers in the Black community with the stereotypical MAGA types is that the former have good historical reasons to be distrustful.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Syphilis_Study

      • 0 avatar
        APaGttH

        I think you’re both right. I agree this has been covered – but I don’t think it’s being covered enough.

        The only thing between me having the view of just them all die is the knowledge that Black, Hispanic, some Indigenous, and Pacific Islanders are resistant to vax due to their history.

        There is also a subset of rural poor who don’t have access and want a vax due to medical deserts and lack of transportation.

        When school starts in the south in a week or two (depending on the state) it is going to turn into a total $h1t show 4 to 6 weeks after.

      • 0 avatar
        96redse5sp

        @FreedMike.

        You say “not even remotely true” and then you post a link showing that the vaccination rates among Black people is lower than the White vaccination rate in 47 out of the 50 states and the vaccination rate among Hispanics is lower than that among Whites in 40 out of the 50 states. Do you not know how to read charts or did you just cut and paste without looking?!?

        • 0 avatar
          FreedMike

          @96:
          What I was responding to is your claim that the “liberal media” isn’t reporting this. Clearly they are. That’s why I posted those links.

          Vaccination rates among minorities ARE lower. There’s a variety of reasons, and among Black folks, it has a lot to do with the fact that the government used Black people as unwitting lab rats not so long ago.

      • 0 avatar
        96redse5sp

        @FreedMike.

        You say “not even remotely true” and then you post a link showing that the vaccination rates among Black people is lower than the White vaccination rate in 47 out of the 50 states and the vaccination rate among Hispanics is lower than that among Whites in 40 out of the 50 states. Do you not know how to read charts or did you just cut and paste without looking?!?

        From that same article:

        “KHN’s analysis shows that only 22% of Black Americans have gotten a shot, and Black rates still trail those of Whites in almost every state.”

    • 0 avatar
      ajla

      They should have updated how VAERS worked during 2020. The current self-reporting system f*cked them hard.

  • avatar
    Syke

    “I’d love to rely on people being grown-up adults and making the right choice, the one that protects not just themselves but those around them, but unfortunately, too many people have either not understood why masks were/are necessary. Or they do understand but just insist on not doing something they don’t want to do, even if their choice has potentially serious negative consequences for others.”

    And here is the true crux of the problem. The realization that, in the United States of America, we have a sizable minority who, no matter what scientific evidence they are presented with, will absolutely refuse to take any kind of action that shows any form of consideration for the surrounding society. Be it a political scream of “Muh Freedumb!”, or just a self-centered petulant attitude of not giving a damn about anyone who doesn’t reside within his/her property lines, we’ve got an awful lot of Americans who are more than happy to let other people die rather than act like they give a damn about those people’s welfare.

    I’m both old enough to remember the mass inoculations agains polio 60 years ago, and was fortunate enough to be an old enough grade school student that I actually understood what all that was about. And fortunate enough to have parents who filled me in on why I had to get that sugar cube, that shot, that whatever. Above all, I had a country that was united in defeating polio. We, as a society back then, didn’t have to worry about major news outlets lying to us that the vaccine is useless and don’t bother (while everyone in that television studio have already gotten their shots).

    Above all, sixty years ago, we had both political parties, and all the minor ones (including the American Communist party) supporting the vaccination drive against polio. Today’s normal politics where one political party happily works against the effort to defeat the disease, merely to inconvenience the opposing political party, and reclaim control of the country next year, or three years from now, was anathema when I was a child.

    How far we’ve fallen as a country.

    28 Cars, you say it’s not a “real vaccination” because it doesn’t give each and every person who takes the shot(s) 100% absolute guaranteed immunity from the disease? Well, in the first place, none of those other vaccines we get usually without complaining (flu, measles, etc.) meets your standard, either. Somehow, both science and society is able to live with 95-99% effectiveness in those cases. The vaccines we do have are the best science and technology are able to come up with in less than a year after the outbreak started. And I have no doubt they’re eventually going to be superseded by a better alternative that approaches that 100% idea.

    And, as to the fatigue about the rules constantly changing: That’s scientific research. To everyone expecting science to come up with the 100% perfect answer and then carve it on stone tablets to be out there immutable and forever . . . . . science doesn’t work that way, and never has. Due to scientific research, the end answers are constantly changing, and the actions we have to take are constantly being affected by the latest data. And those scientists are often dead wrong. When they are, they keep searching to find whatever it is that proves right.

    One final commnent, and i’ll get off the soapbox: To anyone other there who refuses to both get vaccinated (exception, of course, made for those who’s physical and medical condition does not allow safe administration of the vaccines) and refuses to wear a mask in public, you are not an American.

    You are a traitor.

    To this country, which you will happily hurt for whatever rationale you’re coming up in your mind. To society, because you’re too self-centered to care about anyone outside your immediate circle of yourself, and possibly family. I don’t want to hear about your political philosophies, I want to hear about how many others you have killed today. Of course, not directly, that would guarantee incarceration. I’m talking indirectly, by your childish self-centeredness.

    You’re certainly not the America I was brought up to believe in.

    • 0 avatar
      Arthur Dailey

      As a Canadian I would not feel comfortable saying/writing that. But I do wish to thank you for being courageous enough to do so.

    • 0 avatar
      Snooder

      Thanks for this.

      It’s utterly mindboggling how much the same people who dickstroke themselves over “going back to the good old days” are ALSO the ones most determined to erase the actually good things about those days.

    • 0 avatar
      28-Cars-Later

      I think above I addressed some of these concerns which may have been posted after you wrote your post. In short as I can:

      -The treatment grants no immunity and did not claim too.
      -The treatment is designed to lessen symptoms of those who get it and ultimately prevent unneeded deaths (also prevent hospital swarm which is a national security concern).
      -The treatment is believed to help those who received it spread it less, but the exact amount of improvement is still being studied. Highest I have read was a 40% reduction in spread.
      -Long term side effects are unknown.
      -6,207 deaths from injection or complications thereof were reported as of July 22nd, 2021
      -Based on Dr. Fauci’s comments of October 2020 (above) a high immunity percentage from a vaccine would be the ultimate goal to diffusing the crisis, but was not realistic given the time frame and political pressure the researchers were under. They considered that to be a secondary goal with the primary goal being development of some kind of treatment to lessen symptoms and partially stabilize the situation. This is believable and probably the most realistic scenario they could have pursed, and we must remember in March/April 2020 no one knew what the mortality rate would actually be – they had to assume the worse.

      I agree science is not absolute and is always changing, but many whom I believe are mentally ill hijack the arguments of “science” and declare them to be absolute truths which cannot be debated. These same people seem to be ignorant of the simple facts I have displayed, and channel the worst side of Man -the ruthless authoritarian- in order to force their inaccurate beliefs on others in the name of “science” (where ironically is a theme in some religions where terrible things are done in the name of [INSERT HERE]).

      This crisis will be with us to at the earliest Spring 2025 IMO, and the presence of political angles to it are irrefutable. Sadly as we had already seen in AGW, a rabid political movement has already taken hold surrounding what is ultimately an ongoing scientific and medical crisis. A movement whose continuation is predicated on its beliefs being correct, even if through new scientific research they turn out to be wrong. That inevitable scenario is far more dangerous than the actual virus in my opinion.

      I wish you well and good health.

  • avatar
    Master Baiter

    [Disclaimer: I’m not saying that YOU should not get vaccinated. That’s between you and your doctor.]

    Obviously Ford and GM can mandate whatever the F they want. I work from home in a Red State, so life is good.

    As far as the CDC, they are a political organization, and their “guidelines” are beyond worthless. Case in point: They are recommending vaccination for people WHO HAVE HAD COVID, when there is no science to back such a recommendation. The CDC and their cohorts in the media are salesmen for Big Pharma, period.

  • avatar
    dukeisduke

    “Jane, you ignorant sl*t!”

  • avatar
    Crosley

    I was a mask supporter under the original auspices of “bending the curve” (even though the CDC originally lied and said masks weren’t effective)

    Now they are not only effective but need to be mandated by law. For the record, the types of masks most people wear aren’t doing anything but keeping Karen off your back.

    But now that a vaccine is widely available and free for anyone that wants one, we’re done with this. If you’re afraid of this, that’s on you to either get a vaccine or shut up about it. Or find employment that allows you to hide in your bedroom forever behind a computer.

    This is NEVER going to go away, it will be a new version of the flu that is bouncing around forever with different variants that the medical community can lie about. We are not going to do lockdowns and masks forever every time a little flare up happens.

  • avatar
    don1967

    The inconvenient truth is that Covid-19 is an actuarial nothingburger for a large segment of the population. For these folks, skipping the vaccine is a perfectly rational choice. Insufferable pseudo-intellectuals who point a finger and cry “moron” don’t realize that the joke’s on them.

    For other groups, Covid-19 poses a greater risk. But so do many other things, all of which have been forgotten by the herd. Where are the hysterical cries to wear masks during flu season, to lower speed limits to 3 mph, or to make broccoli mandatory? Only the corporate news editors, who assign opinions to 90% of the population, can answer that one.

    More critical thinking, less groupthink dressed up as science. Please.

    • 0 avatar
      FreedMike

      “Covid-19 is an actuarial nothingburger”
      My kids lost their grandfather to this. He’s one of 614,000 “nothingburgers.”

      You, sir, are a jerk.

    • 0 avatar
      Lou_BC

      @don1967

      “Where are the hysterical cries to wear masks during flu season”

      We’ve seen how effective masks and distancing have been in controlling influenza. There have been ZERO documented cases of influenza or suspected cases in Canada over the past year.

      There are experts stating that society needs to reassess how it controls various virus’s. Improved ventilation, UV lights and other measures are being suggested. Masking is another possible suggestion. Mask mandates are already mandatory in Canada for all healthcare staff if they do not receive an influenza vaccine.

      British Columbia had raised speed limits on certain freeways by 10 kph. Some roads went from 100 to 110 kph and one went to 120 kph. It was only a few years later and speed limits were reduced because crash fatality rates doubled.

      “More critical thinking, less groupthink dressed up as science. Please.”

      I fully agree. Seems to me you need to work on the former and the latter.

  • avatar
    lne937s

    People in the “I don’t trust experts, I do my own research” camp should google “Russian vaccine disinformation”
    https://www.google.com/search?q=russian+vaccine+disinformation

    Do not make yourself another “useful idiot” for a hostile foreign nation that wants us to fail. Get vaccinated.

    We should have sanctions on Russia for this.

    • 0 avatar
      sayahh

      People have already forgotten about (or didn’t even know about) Cambridge Analytica using Facebook to get them to hate Hillary or LOVE AMERICA and pander to their likes and dislikes and brainwashing them to the point that they’ve become traitors…while they believe that it’s the other Americans who are the traitors.

      Rick and Morty: clones don’t know that they are clones. Ditto with decoys.

    • 0 avatar
      slavuta

      Haha, Just the act of googling is already a path to disinformation. Google is!! Russian disinformation, considering its founder Brin was born in Russia.

      Google results are totally skewed. Can’t trust them anymore. Even Bing is not as shameless.

      But you know who creates most vaccine disinformation – Pfizer. They are behind all the bad news about J&J and now, Novavax has a lot to fear that Pfizer will kill them.

    • 0 avatar
      slavuta

      Lets talk about Russia-US as you started it. Why would Russia want America to fail? They have even a bigger superpower right on their border. And if America fails, all of its attention will concentrated on the neighbor to the north. No, you’re forgetting unshakable – divide and conquer. Russia needs America. Russia wants America to counterbalance China. But Russia wants EU to fail. This will be better for Russian business.

      Now, tell me, how Russia today hurts America? USSR – yes. They infiltrated the whole US system and now America pays a high price. But what exactly Russia is doing today to knock out America? US is in self destroying mode. US is following USSR footprint. US is in decline, small decline at this point but still a decline. And at the same time, our great rulers are trying to act as we are a rising empire, spreading resources into all stupid programs all over the world. There will be a tear to this line.

  • avatar
    el scotto

    Random thoughts: Bertel would have never put up with about half of the posters on here; neither Baruth brother has chimed in and I love those who, never, ever, not no how, no now way ever provide citations. President Trump got the Covid vaccine. I’m sure that causes much anguish amongst the anti-VAxxers. A MAGA hat and both shots? How can that possibly be? If the anti-vaxxers went to public school; their literacy is usually a hint of that, they had mandatory vaccines to attend public school!!!! One can always hope they never got booster shots for diseases that cause violent and quite bloody diarrhea, but I digress. At this time, children under twelve (12) can’t get vaccinated. Surely for the sake of humanity, you’ll get your shots to help protect someone’s child or children. Or would you rather be proud to be a walking Covid germ lab and infect children? What you think are “mah rights” may change in a public health crisis. Lordy, you’d think this site would go back to recycling press release or stealing from Jalopnik and Auto News.

    • 0 avatar
      Lou_BC

      “President Trump got the Covid vaccine” wasn’t that after he had contracted COVID-19?

      And there are those who whine about getting a vaccine after contracting COVID-19

  • avatar
    96redse5sp

    This is the kind of bullshit that we’re dealing with from people who should know better.

    On July 30, H. Scott Apley, Chair of the Galveston County (Texas) Republican Party posted a meme on FB that said: “In 6 months, we’ve gone from the vax ending the pandemic—to you can still get covid even if vaxxed—to you can pass covid onto others even if vaxxed—to you can still die of covid even if vaxxed—to the unvaxxed are killing the vaxxed.”

    This genius claimed that requiring people to prove their were vaccinated at any event was a violation of their “HIPPA”. This guy doesn’t know HIPAA from hippos, yet he’s an expert in immunology…

    • 0 avatar
      slavuta

      But a black lady, Boston mayor, said same thing – no way we’re to be required to show papers. She said, this is slavery-like documentation requirement.

  • avatar

    Martians are coming and they are vaccinated. Are you?

  • avatar
    carcomment

    So non experts on the TTAC staff write editorials pro and con on a matter that doesnt effect then typing in their basement. Perhaps the time of this author would be better spent learning to craft more meaningful reviews and leaving to the experts decisions that actually require expert knowledge as opposed to say sitting in a car and sharing your feelings.

    More TTAC click bait. The site must be in trouble on its core content.

  • avatar

    148 comments. Not bad huh? I never thought that new Civil War in America will start over masks and vaccination but here we are.

  • avatar
    Matt Foley

    I’m a Moderna-vaccinated right-winger, so everyone hates me. But I’ll leave this here for those of you who just want to get through your day without suffocating yourselves or pointlessly arguing with statists:

    http://www.fakemaskusa.com

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