By on April 2, 2019

Image: FCA

Twitter — or as I like to call it, the unintellectual dark web — regularly tosses out scorching takes like “too many people drive pickups” and other gold-plated nuggets for the online punditry to seize upon. Maybe there’s some truth to them.

But until government apparatchiks start barring dealership doors, saying, “Hey! You there — you with the cash that you worked hard to earn. Don’t you dare purchase this pricey domestic product for your own (completely legal) use!” we’ll continue buying them. Meanwhile, a good many people will look at the state of their finances, take a gander at rising ATPs in that segment, and decide on something else.

Are you a truck owner with a mind to downsize?

Yes, this has everything to do with last week’s study of existing and former truck owners. In the former camp, 68 percent felt trucks are overpriced for what you get, and 17 percent of this particular crowd claims they’ll look outside the segment come trade-in time.

The thing about trucks is that they can basically be anything you want them to be. Four-door family car. Stripped-down work hauler. Hunting 4×4. Brodude sports wagon. With the new Jeep Gladiator’s appearance, they can even take the form of a fun-in-the-sun convertible.

A sedan, despite its virtues, can never fill all of those shoes.

It’s no wonder that truck sales continue to climb, though at a slower pace — and at lower volumes — than their rampaging SUV/CUV rivals. The average transaction price of a full-size pickup last year was $47,400, up from $39,805 six years earlier — a climb we can partly blame on the myriad of profit-seeking ultra-lux trims. Trims one needn’t choose if their needs fall squarely in the big utility/basic transportation camp.

Ram will happily sell you a stock 1500 Classic Tradesman 4×2 for an after-destination price of $29,090 if roughing it is your bag. Its V8, quad cab new-generation sibling stickers for $34,885 if towing power, a backseat, and boosted refinement is something you demand of your truck.

Still, nicely appointed, reasonably glitzy pickup trims can’t be had for anything close to the $28,920 ATP of a compact crossover. And the burgeoning midsize pickup scene doesn’t seem to offer the buyer much in the way of up-front value (resale value, perhaps).

Everyone’s needs are different, and each of us draws funds from a very different bank balance. If you’re a current pickup owner, do you plan to remain so until your kid (or the state) takes away the keys? If you don’t, does price have anything to do with your decision?

[Image: Fiat Chrysler Automobiles]

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128 Comments on “QOTD: Priced Out of Pickups?...”


  • avatar
    Lie2me

    Even though truck prices continue to climb I still think they’re the best value in the automotive world. A truck can do just about anything a sedan can do, but the reverse is not true. A truck will probably last twice as long as a sedan making it a even better value. I currently don’t own a truck, but I have in the past and would eagerly buy another if the need arose, but probably a mid-size truck

    • 0 avatar
      RSF

      The strong re-sell value of trucks goes a long way to making them a great value in addition to all the things you mentioned.

    • 0 avatar
      gtem

      I think trucks are vastly overpriced on the mid-high end, but you’re right, look at what’s being asked for midsize crossovers and such. A lower-trim pickup has a lot of baked in value and a long inherent lifespan IMO, although some of the newer tech will make for some headaches long term (direct injection). The aluminum body Fords especially I find appealing based on corrosion resistance. Oil-undercoat the frame and buy a pre-DI 5.0L, should last a good long while and not give too many headaches even long term. Likewise a Tundra with the good old port injected 3UR, keep the underbody washed and/or oil coated and that’s an immense long-term buy as far as trouble free motoring and value retention goes. You’ll just have to pony up for fuel quite a bit. Basic 3/4 ton trucks also seem like reasonable deals, I’m a fan of the 2500 Rams especially (aside from the VIN starting with ‘3’).

      • 0 avatar
        jack4x

        An F250 XL has the aluminum body, a port injected 6.2L, and a ‘1’ VIN. That truck in the mid-$30s is a very solid value.

        • 0 avatar
          gtem

          Absolutely Jack. They’re stupendously tall and huge/grotesque these days, but if I wanted something with maximum truck utility and value that I knew would last me 20-30 years, a basic gas F250 with an aluminum body makes one heck of a case for itself.

        • 0 avatar
          pb35

          My next door neighbor has a 2003 F250 with a diesel, purchased new. It has over 100k on it by now and when something breaks, he fixes it.

          I’m sure he could sell it for a good price but he has no intentions of getting rid of it any time soon.

      • 0 avatar
        Fordson

        The Ecoboost V6s both have dual port and direct injection…I don’t expect to see carbon buildup a problem with those. And they have proven to have reliable direct injection setups since introduction, so I don’t expect to see issues there.

        Here in the Buffalo area, we are definitely seeing 2015, 2016, 2017 MY F150s commanding higher resale than the steel competition.

        • 0 avatar
          gtem

          I’m not just worried about direct injection issues, although yes I am aware the 2nd gen Ecoboosts AND the 5.0L NA Coyote received dual injection. I’m more so talking about the added expense and potential hassle of the high pressure pump+cam follower, pricey injectors, etc once these things are a decade (or two decades) old.

    • 0 avatar
      Flipper35

      I doon’t think they will outlast a sedan in the snow belt. All of them, regardless of manufacturer, rust out in the rear fender wells.

      • 0 avatar
        gtem

        I’ve never seen a ’07+ Tundra with sheetmetal rust (frames might be a different story on them). And Ford effectively eliminated body rust as a concern, which makes them massively appealing to me.

        • 0 avatar
          Vulpine

          @gtem: Aluminum body panels have their own issues, especially in any location where it has to bond/fasten to steel.

          • 0 avatar
            Fordson

            We in Buffalo (as in Buffalo, NY) are getting to the 54-month point (including 5 winters) since we started seeing these aluminum trucks on the road. We are not seeing dissimilar metals issues here.

          • 0 avatar
            Vulpine

            @Fordson: Have you looked under the body where it meets the frame? How about around the suspension? Is it all well undercoated or do you see bare metal? And if you see bare metal, can you see a grainy white powder or coating?

            Guess what that means.

          • 0 avatar
            gtem

            Where exactly does the body meet the frame aside from the body mounts, where it is isolated by rubber?

          • 0 avatar
            Vulpine

            @Gtem: Even the bolts? You’ve got a lot of places where aluminum will meet steel. Remember the cab structure is made up of at least three different grades of steel with the aluminum body panels attached with little more than glue. Any gap in that glue could have aluminum touching steel while there are numerous other places where wiring, tubing, etc. pass out of the cab into the engine bay and along the chassis (such as hand/parking brake cable.)

            Oh, I know they engineer to avoid any steel/aluminum contact but they can’t guarantee the washers, grommets, etc will remain intact under excessive use or under unusual (even if planned for) climactic conditions. And aluminum is just as susceptible to salt-water corrosion as steel, if not more so. Remember the all-aluminum littoral ships such as the Freedom and the Independence which had to come in for overhaul after only a year or so at sea due to hull corrosion.

          • 0 avatar
            gtem

            fair point, I guess we’ll see how they hold up! Seeing how badly the cab corners and rockers on even the ’11-’14 Supercrews are rotting out around here, I’d be willing to take the risk.

          • 0 avatar
            JohnTaurus

            OMG, at least some parts of the truck can eventually rust, so the aluminium body is completely useless. Unless it was Ram that pioneered it instead, in which case it would be the best thing ever in the history of everything.

          • 0 avatar
            JimZ

            the biggest problem with aluminum body panels hasn’t been the joins in the vehicles themselves, but dissimilar metal contamination (iron/steel particles) getting trapped between aluminum panels. like the front lip of Mustang hoods. IIRC no steel panels are stamped in the same facility which is stamping F-150 body parts, and I remember reading how they said they did a “thorough decontamination” of the stamping and body shops at the plant when they were changing over to aluminum.

          • 0 avatar
            DenverMike

            @Vulpine – Don’t worry about it so much, or my ’04 F-150 with its aluminum hood, with not even any paint issues. Zero corrosion, even on the “bare aluminum” rock chips that happened almost since new. I expected them to rust right away, but found it odd they didn’t. It was only years later I found out the hood was aluminum.

            But it has steel (iron oxide) bolts attaching it to the steel hinges.

            Or should I start losing sleep?

          • 0 avatar
            Vulpine

            Y’all, I had a career in aviation electronics. I SAW what happened to aluminum, titanium and other light-but-strong metals when faced with salt and dissimilar metal corrosion. Even working on a big Gulfstream G3 biz jet, the maintenance crew–including myself–had to re-anodize the aluminum leading edges of the wing where they came in contact with the stainless steel anti-icing and heating components on a regular basis.

          • 0 avatar
            DenverMike

            Regardless of what you “SAW”, you’re talking about something else entirely. Aircraft can’t have a molecule of corrosion. So show where aluminum body vehicles have detrimental corrosion, not just F-150s but German, English and other cars which have had all-aluminum bodies decades before Ford did it.

            It’s not exactly cutting edge Rocket Science keeping dissimilar metals from contact corrosion.

            You’ve got plenty of potential proof, so never mind your theories, show just one. Oh and various semi trucks have had aluminum bodies and trailers (with steel frames/suspension/5th wheel) for decades. I could show millions of steel body examples, many totaled by just 10 years old.

            Even if it takes 50 years to total out an aluminum body vehicle, or beyond repair, that’s way better than steel and a tremendous improvement.

          • 0 avatar
            gtem

            I will say Ford has had a number of aluminum corrosion issues on hoods and tailgates in the past, around here older Expeditions are notorious for peeling paint on the rear hatch. Newer Mustangs have had issues, per the internet, and a smattering of others like newer Explorers (FWD crossover kind).

          • 0 avatar
            DenverMike

            If the worst you get is pealing paint, cry to the guy that just had his 10 year old steel truck totaled out from rust. He’ll probably buy you a beer to drown your pain. Clear Coats need a respray anyway at 10 years.

          • 0 avatar
            Vulpine

            @DM: Well, when it comes to cars, I’ve seen more than “peeling paint” like gtem on those aluminum panels… I’ve seen total perforation. And not just on Ford bodies.

          • 0 avatar
            ToolGuy

            John,

            The “best thing ever in the history of everything” was when the Ford Motor Company conceded that that can’t compete in cars.

    • 0 avatar
      SSJeep

      Pickup trucks are indeed the best value in the automotive landscape today, especially in the competitive base and mid trim markets. Luxo-barges are less of a value simply owing to the ghastly amounts being charged for features that arent necessarily valued in the used market.

      A truck can do everything a sedan can do except one thing – fit in a municipal parking garage – and that is exactly why I do not own one any longer.

  • avatar
    RSF

    I don’t see ever going back to something besides a pickup. However, I’ve extended the replacement cycle since the prices are so high and I pay cash. Years ago I was buying a new truck every other year, now I keep it until miles are in the 90’s which is about 4 years. I’ve been in F150’s since the mid 90’s.

  • avatar
    jack4x

    I do enough “truck” tasks that I will always need to have one around, unless or until an SUV rated for snowplow service is sold again (not holding my breath for that).

    I did just buy a new truck last year for what most on here would consider an inflated price, but I consider what I got for the money to be a screaming deal. I’m planning to keep this truck for a long time though, so it was worth paying a lot to get exactly what I wanted, and I’m probably insulated from future increases for at least a decade.

  • avatar
    Steve203

    Nothing earthshaking in the article.

    People always want the stuff they buy to cost less. Most people always want a bigger one.

    Wall St wants to see the automakers record ever higher transaction prices and fatter gross margins.

    So the automakers respond to the wishes of customers and Wall St with ever longer loan periods and ever lower lending standards, so more people qualify for loans and ever more expensive vehicles are kept “affordable” by longer loan periods to hold down the monthly payment.

    It all works fine, until something happens and 3-4 year old vehicles are worth less than the outstanding balance on their 6-7 year loan, or the bus-boys start defaulting on the loans for their $70,000 trucks.

    I remember the panic in October of 2008, when GMAC announced it would not finance anyone with a FICO score under 700. As the average GM customer’s FICO was below 700, GMAC’s move implied that GM’s sales would fall by over half, overnight, due to inability to get it’s customers financed.

    • 0 avatar
      Vulpine

      @Steve203: “So the automakers respond to the wishes of customers and Wall St with ever longer loan periods and ever lower lending standards, so more people qualify for loans and ever more expensive vehicles are kept “affordable” by longer loan periods to hold down the monthly payment.”

      — Here’s the problem: the OEMs are not responding to the wishes of customers, they’re responding to the wishes of dealerships, who tend to buy one or two ‘loss leaders’ of any given model and then stock up on the most expensive models, often adding up to 20%-50% over the invoice price of trucks, especially. The OEM doesn’t see that extra money unless they’re shipped to the dealership on consignment, at which point they may see a share of that profit. Not all OEMs or dealerships operate on the consignment method, however.

      And it is the dealerships, not the OEMs that have pushed longer loan periods. Because the dealerships discovered that once a monthly payment exceeds around $500-$600, the buyer starts looking at something cheaper.

  • avatar
    eggsalad

    Nobody who has a valid use case for a pickup will stop buying them. Every major city has a RAM dealer who will happily sell you a stripped-out 1500 for around $22k, maybe less. At that price, a truck is a screaming bargain for people who make a living hauling things.

    As opposed to the people who buy trucks because they just *want* them? If there comes a point where they are no longer affordable and they have to switch to something else, I won’t shed a tear for those folks.

    • 0 avatar
      Lie2me

      Good point, even though a lot of trucks are purchased as “lifestyle” vehicles manufacturers still realize that their core truck customer actually needs a truck often to make a living. That’s why no matter how nice trucks get there will always be a base offering for those in need

  • avatar
    Jon

    I have use for a vehicle with a bed (truck) almost every weekend and a vehicle that can tow a 4000lb trailer once or twice a month. A year ago, the cost to maintain my 2003 GMC as a daily driver was getting too high. I needed a new commuter vehicle (that I would fit car seats in).

    Instead of buying a new truck for 40k, I bought a 2010 Camry and kept the GMC as a work truck. It was one of the best financial decisions I made. Now that the truck sees use on the weekends only, the cost to maintain and repair it has significantly decreased and the cost to own both vehicles has been less than half of a $700 payment.

  • avatar
    ptschett

    “Still, nicely appointed, reasonably glitzy pickup trims can’t be had for anything close to the $28,920 ATP of a compact crossover.”

    My dad bought a 2018 [‘classic’] Ram 1500 Express 4×4 V6 quad cab for the farm fleet for just $28,000 (sticker a bit over $40,000) just last September. Depending on the definitions of nice/reasonable I’ll grant it’s missing some things my 2017 Hemi-powered Ram 1500 Big Horn has, but on the other hand that 2018 has things that couldn’t have been had at any price on my 2005 Dakota which was a Laramie.

  • avatar

    The main problem with truck pricing is that in order to get useful stuff like a locking rear diff, trailer brake controller, larger transmission cooler and alternator, they usually require you to add an option package that takes a truck that costs around $30k up to closer to $40k. I know their website says a lot of those things are stand along options or part of a towing package, but on the lot you won’t find a basic trim with the useful options. It’s either stripped down to nothing or you are paying for electric running boards, a panoramic sunroof and air conditioned seats to get the other goodies you really want.

    Not that those things aren’t nice, but they add a LOT more money to the price which is the point from the Manufacturer and Dealer standpoint, but not so much for the buyer.

    • 0 avatar
      Jon

      +1000!!!

    • 0 avatar
      MiataReallyIsTheAnswer

      Trust me, you want A/C seats.

    • 0 avatar
      gtem

      What I like most about Ford is they will let you separately option their locking rear diff, and it’s reasonably priced too IMO. Looking at used trucks online, it seems like the majority of extended cab 4WDs are configured with the rear locker, but not crew cabs (supercrew).

    • 0 avatar
      Vulpine

      @kericf: Blame the dealerships that order them for on-hand stock and not the OEM. Too many people settle for what’s on the lot rather than demanding what they really want.

      • 0 avatar
        Jon

        A year ago I tried to order a new GMC pickup just the way I wanted it configured from two different dealers. They were offering good incentives and I wanted to take advantage of that. One dealer claimed that incentives would not apply to ordered trucks. The other verified what kericf said above and couldn’t order the truck i wanted. Maybe I just happened to pick the wrong dealers.

        • 0 avatar

          Yeah, this adds to the problem. In theory you could just order what you want, but it doesn’t work like that. The factory doesn’t want to custom build you a truck, and they have no incentive to do that, so if you are going to make them they aren’t going to give you the incentives they have on the ones they already built. Thier opinion is that you should just pay more and they will throw a little extra money on the hood for you to buy more than you want.

          • 0 avatar
            jack4x

            A lot of misinformation here.

            I factory ordered a truck last year and all incentives were identical to a truck purchased from the lot. You locked in the current incentives at the time of the order, and if they were better when you took delivery, you could choose those incentives instead.

            From the OEM’s perspective, a custom order for an individual is no different than an order placed by a dealer for stock. They don’t care one bit either way and all the orders go in the same pool.

          • 0 avatar
            JimZ

            I think the usual exception is those “month end” incentive deals where they specifically call out “Take delivery from dealer stock before (date.)” A special order won’t get that deal, but both Mustangs I ordered still had the “standard” cash on the hood.

          • 0 avatar
            Jon

            @Jack

            The dealer kept trying to sell me a much more profitable product that they had on the floor. I suspected that they could order me the truck I wanted but wouldn’t. Please share the name of a GMC dealer and sales manager that is willing configure and order a truck the way i want it. I would love to buy a truck from them.

          • 0 avatar
            jack4x

            I can’t speak for GMC, since I ordered a Ford. Perhaps it is different, but any dealer who isn’t willing to accept a guaranteed sale by ordering you the truck you want is not one worth doing business with in my opinion.

            All this comes with the important caveat that the dealer and factory can’t and won’t accept a combination of options that isn’t normally available. If the leather seats require the sunroof, then there’s nothing you can do about that. Factory ordering is not a magic bullet to get something outside the Build and Price tools on the company’s website. If the dealer wouldn’t let you do that, then your beef is with GM, not the dealer.

          • 0 avatar
            jack4x

            @JimZ,

            I had a Ford offer that included the wording “Take delivery from dealer stock by XXX” and I was allowed to lock it in at the time I placed my order. The dealer confirmed with Ford that this was OK. It’s possible there may be some non-qualified offers but I guess there weren’t any like that running on Super Duty either when I ordered or took delivery.

  • avatar
    arach

    I sold my F350 and bought a Hyundai Sonata. Best decision I ever made! haha.

    I’ve been a truck guy for a long time… Daily Drove a GMC Sonoma, then an F150, then a Dodge Ram, then another Dodge Ram, then a non-dodge Ram, then an f350 Diesel and then bought a Sonata…

    At some point the “value proposition” died to me. I sold my F350 with 197k on the odometer, saw the price of even USED trucks, and said, “WTH?” haha. The kinds of things that were standard in a car weren’t available until you added $15k to the base price on the trucks…

    I could literally buy a new Hyundai Sonata for less than an F150 with 125k on the clock… and I thought- I like my trucks, but I’ll just drive a sonata until the truck prices drop”

    But then I realized I like getting 32 MPG, and I like how easy it is to drive, and park. I guess I’m just getting old, but I kind of like the sedan… haha. I’ve had it for a couple of years and occasionally I wish I had a truck, but those times are few and far between. We did buy a bigger SUV for my wife to handle towing duties, but the Durango does just fine for anything we need to tow.

    I’ll get another truck when gas prices skyrocket and prices drop like they did in ’09. Until then, I guess I’m ahead of the curve… haha.

    • 0 avatar
      stuki

      The Durango is an underrated vehicle. You get unibody goodness for those 95% of the time when trucks/SUVs are used as cars; while retaining capacities sufficient for 95% of what truckier BOF haftons are actually used for. Another example of how Chrysler manages to ferret out niches of real world utility, where others remain stuck in often counterproductive set patterns.

  • avatar
    TheDutchGun

    I recently downsized from an F150 to a Focus ST and I have zero regrets.

    I know I’m not getting the fuel economy of a base 4-banger as the ST is quite fun to throw around, but I’m still saving a lot at the pump.

    Our fed government just added carbon pricing to our fuel as of April 1st and it increased the fuel price by 10 cents per litre overnight. This was my main motivation to change.

    I have rural property so a truck is useful, but not at the operating cost. That and they are very expensive to buy, new or used.

  • avatar
    ajla

    I wrote last week about how I already don’t like how much I’m “air-hauling” in my sedan. A truck would just increase that unused utility. I (generally) like the engine offerings in trucks, but that’s about it on their appeal for me.

  • avatar
    forward_look

    At one time I had an Econoline (old telephone truck, with one side windows) and it was very handy for hauling stuff under cover and locked up. Also handy to tweak the carburetor while driving. It had an inline 6 and 3 on the tree shifter. The only vehicle I sold for a profit.

    Anyhow, nowadays I have a trailer hitch on my Focus and I can haul almost anything my van could, except … rain happens.

  • avatar
    Vulpine

    Too many people here are taking a short-term view of pickups. While it is true that they are (almost) all things to all people, they get among the worst fuel economy and are physically the largest Personally Operated Vehicles (POVs) on the road, excepting RVs. The problem is, their popularity is waning, at least partially due to cost and the cost will continue to rise. This is also why Ford and Hyundai are the first brands to officially announce even smaller trucks than the current round of mid-sized models.

    Oh, yes; today’s trucks do have reasonably good resale value. Interestingly, it is two ‘smaller’ “trucks” that carry among the highest resale of which the Toyota Tacoma is the only pickup for now while the Jeep Wrangler (which does get licensed as a truck in some states) can realize as much as 50% trade in value even at 8-10 years old. And now we have the Gladiator coming along which will make two pickups with the highest resale value on the market. BUT…

    Again, the full-sized market is about to see a serious shift. More and more we see battery-operated vehicles growing in the overall market and at least two brands are offering pickups in the very near future–not counting Tesla. These BEV trucks could effectively destroy the current market and those currently-high-value ICE trucks are going to see a major drop in value. This could happen in as little as 5 years as more BEVs in general start pulling market share. I personally believe we have seen peak pickup truck, at least for the full sizers, with very probably a reduction in ride height, width and length by as much as 15% before 2030, meaning today’s mid-sizers will be tomorrow’s full-sizers and a new, compact, class of pickup will arise.

    • 0 avatar
      jack4x

      Only once in history have Americans truly embraced smaller vehicles, and that was with a combination of gas price shocks and inflation that is seriously unlikely to occur in the near future.

      I would not expect to get rich betting on Americans to willingly downsize to smaller trucks, no matter how personally invested you are in their success.

      • 0 avatar
        Vulpine

        @jack4x: More than once trucks, especially, saw serious reductions in sales. Every time it was when gas prices peaked above previous highs and stayed there for any length of time. It will happen again and possibly sooner than you want to believe.

        • 0 avatar
          jack4x

          I assume you are referring to the 2008-11 time period when full size truck sales fell pretty dramatically.

          The only issue with that is that small truck sales didn’t increase to compensate. Ranger, Frontier, Tacoma all tanked right alongside their big brothers. It’s not as if Americans all of a sudden decided to downsize their trucks, they just quit buying new at all.

          If gas spikes again and stays high, the same thing will happen. People will buy fewer new vehicles, but it’s not going to lead to a permanent sea change in the “bigger = better” mindset of the American car/truck buyer unless we see a repeat of the 1970s. I don’t see anything remotely like that on the horizon, nor would I hope for it.

          • 0 avatar
            Vulpine

            @jack4x: “It’s not as if Americans all of a sudden decided to downsize their trucks, they just quit buying new at all.”

            — No, all their trucks went to used car lots as they bought smaller cars instead. Even the mid-sized trucks back then got pretty poor mileage when cars were pushing 30mpg and some even better on the highways.

            And as far as the sea change is concerned–the BEV trucks will have the advantage, despite their shorter range. And the true compact trucks haven’t been seen on the market in decades; enough people want a truly small truck that if Ford does what they say, they’ll own an all-new market for years until the rest field similarly-sized models.

          • 0 avatar
            JohnTaurus

            Ahh, so that’s why the Chevy Cobalt replaced the Silverado as GM’s best selling vehicle. Thanks for the explanation.

  • avatar
    MiataReallyIsTheAnswer

    The problem with the base model trucks at around 30 grand, is they are BASE in the extreme. As in, penalty box. We have an F250 in that spec (V8, stick, 4×4 and not much else), but it only gets used for Truck Stuff, so we don’t mind the austere nature. To me a new base model truck is a tough sell when you look around at all the genuinely nice cars and crossovers you can get for the same cost.

    • 0 avatar
      JimZ

      But but but I thought people *wanted* no-frills vehicles!

      Seriously, my Ranger has power nothing and vinyl floor covering, and I don’t consider it a “penalty box” because of it.

      • 0 avatar
        CKNSLS Sierra SLT

        JImZ

        Respectfully most people would consider your truck a penalty box-and would never consider one. That’s why they are hard to find on a dealer’s lot.

    • 0 avatar
      DenverMike

      A V8, stick and 4X4? What else could you possibly need?? The F-250 hasn’t offered a manual trans in almost 20 years, so you can’t be talking a newer truck. And that’s before coil front 4wd suspensions.

      But no amount of fluff or glitz will change the basic format, penalty or not.

  • avatar
    Master Baiter

    If we’re talking about high truck prices, it might be worth mentioning the 25% tariff on imported trucks.

    • 0 avatar
      JimZ

      Doesn’t matter when all of the “foreign” competition is built here anyway.

      • 0 avatar
        DenverMike

        It’s a goofy comment. The SUVs based on the same pickups are priced dramatically higher for the same trim, yet no Chicken tax applies to them.

        Basically anyone “priced out” of a base pickup (before rebates) is also priced out of a Hyundai Elantra.

  • avatar
    gtem

    I’ve currently got perhaps the most envious of situations: truck access by way of a friend in exchange for a bit of wrenching on said truck. The few dirty loads and 12ft lumber have been handled by the truck, my minivan excels at hauling just about everything else. If I had the room for it, I’d love to keep a weekend hauler like that around, and the truck in question (’98 GMT400 ext cab 4wd with a 305) is actually a pretty nice and comfy commuter by my standards that makes short work of our potholes.

    • 0 avatar
      Felix Hoenikker

      gtem,
      I agree that a minivan is an awesome hauler which is why we decided to keep the 99 Odyssey when we bought a new QX50 for my wife. I have hauled plywood, drywall, sofas, 25 cu ft refrigerator, and other assorted furniture in it. However, hauling bulk items lke mulch or stone never made economic sense as buying it in bulk and paying a small delivery fee was cheaper and more convenient. Taking this farther, the only legitimate use I would have for a pick up is much easier subed out for the vendor.

      • 0 avatar
        gtem

        Felix there is a weird but very real feeling of utter satisfaction for me to drive a pickup truck over to the bulk landscape supply place and haul myself. As best as I can describe it is like being a little kid and playing with moving equipment toys in a sandbox. My local landscape place can deliver for $60, but for me only buying a yard or two for $50, it rubs me in the wrong way to pay more for the delivery than the product. So I fully admit it transcends 100% dollars and cents rationality.

  • avatar
    carguy

    No doubt trucks are awesome but the rising prices are out of control. Nearly $50K for the average full size transaction price is solidly in luxury territory. The cost of ownership is hard to justify even for someone on twice the average wage. According to Edmunds that’s $13K+ of depreciation in the first year alone. Add to that the aggressive long term financing and I am guessing we will see whole lot of these at auction when the economy turns.

    • 0 avatar
      arach

      Honestly, this is what I’m hedging my bets on…

      I look forward to finally getting a truck again when all these 70k trucks get repoed with 12k miles on them and are sold for pennies on the dollar at auction!

  • avatar

    Yeah, this adds to the problem. In theory you could just order what you want, but it doesn’t work like that. The factory doesn’t want to custom build you a truck, and they have no incentive to do that, so if you are going to make them they aren’t going to give you the incentives they have on the ones they already built. Thier opinion is that you should just pay more and they will throw a little extra money on the hood for you to buy more than you want.

    • 0 avatar
      DenverMike

      Believe it or not, some dealers actually want to sell you a truck, and option them with the most popular “work” packages, and for some buyers that includes power windows/locks, cruise, tint, rear window slider, fog lights, running boards, etc, as must-haves.

      Start with Fleet departments and or Commercial upfitter (utility beds for example) specializing dealers. They don’t have time for horsesh!t.

      But with huge dramatic rebates on “unnecessary” luxury, you win too.

    • 0 avatar
      JohnTaurus

      You keep saying that, but it doesnt make it true. The *dealer* may not want to order you a custom truck, and might come up with all sorts of excuses and lies to get out of it. That’s because for one, they want to sell what’s already on their floorplan. Two, they’re afraid you’ll order some hard-to-sell combination and then refuse delivery and theyll be stuck with it.

      The factory receives “custom” orders all the time. Dealers spec the trucks when ordering them. It’s no different than specifying a truck for an individual buyer. Their “incentive” is selling a truck, the same incentive as building any other truck.

      • 0 avatar
        DenverMike

        The dealer might have ordered a truck for inventory with the Tow Package but also Payload Package, but the dealer is trying to second-guess what buyers off the street might want (immediately). And if you gotta have one, but can’t accept the other, you might be an unusual buyers.

        It’s not like they’re forcing a Sun Roof or Leather to get the Snow Plow Prep.

  • avatar
    MBella

    I don’t understand why everyone makes such a big deal about MSRP. These trucks sell for nothing close to it. My Silverado stickered for $45K and I got it for $32K. $8K was off before I even started haggling. While the prices of the high end trucks is going up, they are still giving you huge discounts. The normal everyday models as well. F-150 is the most selling vehicle for a reason, and it’s not because it’s too expensive for most of their customers.

    • 0 avatar
      Robotdawn

      Agreed. My Extended Cab Sierra 4×4 stickered at 46k and I paid 35k. Considering it’s almost 3 years old and KBB tells me it’s still worth 25k, I don’t consider that a bad deal at all.

    • 0 avatar

      Yeah that gets lost, a coworker brought home a new silverado in December, he went looking at new loaded foresters and CRV’s but they gave him a 40K silverado for 30K which was the same as the CRV he was eyeing.

  • avatar
    Land Ark

    I don’t need a large truck for any regular reason. But I’ve been loading my Legacy wagon up with bags of gravel and mulch over the past 2 weeks. I don’t want to overload it so I’ve made 6 trips to Home Depot so far with at least 2 more to go. I don’t mind since it isn’t a long drive but I don’t love what it is doing to inside of the car.
    Something like a Santa Cruz concept would be right up my alley – as I have mentioned several times in the past. There is absolutely a market for small trucks, the problem is that buyers will move up in size to much more profitable trucks too easily that there is no reason to sell such small margin trucklets.

    • 0 avatar
      Land Ark

      Tried to edit but ran out of time…

      I’ve had 3 pickups in the past and the first time I bought one I justified it as having room for passengers and a bed to haul stuff for my classic car when needed. I never did use it to haul parts. I used it to move several times, but those days are hopefully over. I inherited my last one, a newer Tacoma. I did use it for what the Subaru is tasked with now and it was nice to be able to load up the bed instead of make multiple trips, but I didn’t like the ride, lack of power from the V6, and it was 2wd so the ground clearance was more of an annoyance due to the bed height than it was helpful.

      • 0 avatar
        Vulpine

        Well, Ford has announced a compact truck to hit the market around ’23 and the Santa Cruz is still in Limbo, though Hyundai keeps hinting around something perhaps a little bigger.

        If it weren’t for the fact that my wife wants a 23-foot travel trailer that weighs in around 6000#, I probably would have gone for the Nissan (the smallest available now) instead of my Colorado.

    • 0 avatar
      Fordson

      Home Depot, not a long trip, gravel and mulch – ?

      Why in god’s name are you not using HD’s truck to do that? F350 with aluminum utility bed, payload of probably 2,800 lb., $20 to rent for 90 minutes…what am I missing?

      If it’s not a long trip, you’ll be able to get all the gravel and mulch you need on the truck, have it dropped off at home and have the truck back to HD with time to spare. And your Legacy sits in their lot, staying clean and unworn, while you’re doing it.

      If you need a lot of gravel and mulch, have it delivered by a local gravel pit/landscape supplier, at a fraction of the price per cubic yard of the slug-your-own product from HD.

      Also when buying from HD (or Lowe’s, or…) once you get above a price point for the order, they deliver it free.

  • avatar
    crtfour

    I used to drive full size Chevy trucks with my last new one being a 2002 Z-71 with a sticker of somewhere around $32k which I thought was crazy for a truck. Then I drove a Mercedes, bought it and became hooked on European cars. Since then I’ve been in the “why pay $50k for a truck when you can get a xxx European car for the same or less” mindset. That can be good or bad, but I’ve had good luck with them. For truck duty I use a 1997 T100 which I really enjoy (slow and low payload but seems better put together than the Chevy’s I had).

    • 0 avatar
      jack4x

      For me it is the complete opposite.

      Why pay $55K for a 4 cylinder BMW or Mercedes when I can buy an extremely capable luxury truck for the same money?

      • 0 avatar
        carguy

        @jack4x: Trucks have surpassed most European luxury cars. I just bought a loaded X3 for significantly less than the average full size transaction cost.

        If you look at the Edmunds predicted total cost of ownership, the average full size truck is not far off European luxury cars in the same price bracket.

        No one doubts trucks are awesome but they are becoming a luxury item when they cost more than the annual average wage.

        • 0 avatar
          DenverMike

          If your X3 is “loaded” you paid over $44K.

          But with an industry average over $37K (transaction) for average new autos, that still gets consumers into a Crew Cab 4X4 fullsize pickup, well equipped (power windows/lock, cruise, the “basics”) for several thousands less than that.

          A hard loaded Camry can cost you more than that.

          Except it’s those with deep pocket driving up the ATP of pickups, not the Average Joe’s. Ranchers, business owners, hot shotters, real estate moguls, etc, or just those tired of the German car stigma, if not the reliability issues.

      • 0 avatar
        arach

        @Jack- Thats how I feel.

        “I want a truck because its the ultimate in luxury… do anything you want with all the features you want at a similar price to european sedans”

  • avatar
    don1967

    I bought a new 6-passenger truck primarily for (white collar) business use. For the same price as an upscale CPO Euro-sedan I get 20% more family hauling, 50% more resale value, and 300% more utility for DIY projects, moving, etc.

    The best part of truck ownership is trolling those who demand a moral justification for it. I just agree humbly that not everyone can afford a truck, and apologize that I don’t lend mine out.

  • avatar
    jh26036

    If the base spec trucks have AC, it really isn’t that bad already.

  • avatar
    Steve203

    For the people denying pickup prices are stratospheric, because they got a big discount off the sticker, GM’s Q1 sales release was posted earlier this morning.

    Of their pickups it says this. In my book, an $8,000 bump in transaction price, in one year, is pretty steep.

    “First-quarter 2019 average transaction prices for GM’s all-new, light-duty pickups were $8,040 higher compared to their outgoing models in the first quarter of 2018, with the GMC Sierra leading the segment, according to J.D. Power PIN estimates.”

    https://investor.gm.com/news-releases/news-release-details/first-gms-all-new-pickups-posts-20-percent-q1-gain

    • 0 avatar

      That price bump seems to have come at a volume cut. Will be interesting to see if they manage to balance that.

      • 0 avatar
        Steve203

        “That price bump seems to have come at a volume cut. Will be interesting to see if they manage to balance that.”

        The impression I get is that, GM and Ford especially, don’t care about volume. That’s why they keep cutting their lower priced models. Cut the cheaper models, even if they are profitable, and transaction prices, and profit per vehicle, automatically go up. If volume falls off, close plants and lay people off, because Wall St regards plant closures as “extraordinary items” and ignores them.

        It has crossed my mind that GM and Ford only reporting sales on a quarterly basis is to remove the focus on volume and concentrate attention only on their profits. Ford did not release it’s quarterly sales report yesterday, like everyone else did. Ford will release sales tomorrow, in conjunction with it’s quarterly profit report. Estimates have been that Ford sales have dropped less than GM and FCA. Lets see if that pans out, or if Ford’s sales are a smoking crater, and they are using the profit report to divert attention.

  • avatar
    jimmyy

    Usually, I buy Toyota and Honda. But, I love that F150. I went to buy a new one. XLT. Crew Cab. V8. 4×4. No other options. They want more than 40K. Screw that. I am a multi-millionaire because I don’t waste money. I would take it in the mid 30s. Not 40K+. I guess I will continue to stick with my Toyota and Honda vehicles.

    • 0 avatar
      JimZ

      ” I am a multi-millionaire”

      yeah, sure.

      • 0 avatar
        MiataReallyIsTheAnswer

        Why would you assume he is not?

        • 0 avatar
          DenverMike

          A true multi-millionaire would never brag about it, but certainly would’ve sniffed out the huge rebates and incentives, how can you miss them. They’re plastered all over the lot.

          And for someone who’s been on this site, probably since he was just a common multi-thousandaire, he would know exactly what to expect at the pickup dealer, full MSRP.

          • 0 avatar
            jimmyy

            Wall street here. When the opening offer is more than 40K out the door, no sense of even making a bid. Why bother?

          • 0 avatar
            DenverMike

            @Wall Street – It stickers for $47K, no options.
            $40K “out the door” is at least $10K off (a $50K out the door truck). That’s not an amazing offer, but a good place to start.

            You’re a multi-millionaire and can’t do math?

            No you weren’t “in love” with it, you just love to go on forums and complain about anything (not Honda or Toyota), like all multi-millionaires (I guess?), if you did really bother to step on the lot, and are you really that bored?

    • 0 avatar
      ToolGuy

      Why do people insist on arguing with potential customers? The man has money. He has a vehicle in mind. Offer him what he wants and take his money, or move on – don’t tell him he doesn’t know what he wants.

  • avatar
    Carrera

    I am actually in the other camp. I am a small/mid-size sedan owner who is looking to up-size. All I am waiting for is for my drive to work to shrink from 90 miles daily to 12 miles daily. As soon as that happens I will jump into a crew cab, more than likely a Ford 2.7 Ecoboost. I am sick of sitting with my butt on the floor and pretzel-ing myself every day to get in and out of a sedan. The new style for sedans is ass on the floor. Camry is like that, Sonata, Accord, Civic, etc. The Chrysler twins are still OK of course and to my surprise the new VW Passat seems to be still decent.
    No, I don’t need the Platinum trim with cooled seats and panoramic sunroofs. All I need is a crew cab XL with the STX package ( 20 inch wheels and Sync 3, 8 inch screen). Don’t need 4×4 in Florida and not planning to move to a snowy climate. A left over 2018 Ford F-150 2.7 V6 STX can be had for about $ 32,000 in my area. Never been registered, dealer demo cars with 3k or less miles. A brand new 2019 with same equipment is 35,000. This is not for a plastic black bumper stripper with crank doors and hose out seats and floors. This is for a decently equipped crew cab with the optional Ecoboost engine. I don’t need a 65,000 King Ranch Super Platinum.

    • 0 avatar
      gtem

      “20 inch wheels”

      Different strokes and all that, and I suppose Florida has much nicer roads than around here, but man I don’t see the point of those things. Even aesthetically it just looks all out of wack to me.

      • 0 avatar
        ajla

        Nice thing about the 20s is you can put on-road performance tires on it. Living in FL likely does help.

        If I was doing the mulch baron lifestyle I think that’s close to where I’d go. F-150 XL supercab 4×2 with STX and the 5.0L. Add in the locking 3.55 rear, the man step, a bedliner, and Sirius. That’s $40.5K MSRP. So OTD probably about the same as my Stinger was. Not too bad I guess.

        • 0 avatar
          gtem

          Around here, looking at 1-3 year old used trucks, if you’re okay with RWD and supercab, there are crazy savings to be had. Everyone wants supercrew+4wd. My father’s friend got a really good deal by scooping someone’s special order 8ft bed+supercab with towing gears (not sure 3.55 or 3.73), 5.0L, XLT+FX4 package for the rear locker. Very useful rig that he uses to tow a skid steer or telehandler on a twin axle flatbed trailer, albeit not anywhere as effortlessly as the F250 Powerstroke that it replaced.

          • 0 avatar
            Carrera

            1 year old XLT crew cabs with the 3.3V6, ex-rental fleet with less than 15k miles sell for 26-27,000. The Ecoboost and the V8 adds a bit more but not much. However, I am hearing bad things about 2018 V8.

          • 0 avatar
            ajla

            “However, I am hearing bad things about 2018 V8.”

            It would have to literally spawn Pinhead out of the Sync screen for me to get a different F-150 engine.

      • 0 avatar
        Carrera

        I hear you GTEM but the 17 inch really look out of place. They don’t fill those wheel wells right. While I am not a big fan of big rims, the 20s are not low profile tires. They still have plenty of meat and overall look much better than the 17s.

        • 0 avatar
          gtem

          “20s are not low profile tires.” As measured in terms of how they get damaged by potholes around here, they definitely are LOL. This last winter a guy at work with a fancy SIlverado High Country on whatever crazy oversized factory option chrome wheels busted a rim, got to see his snazzy truck rolling on a black steelie for the better of two weeks.

          I like the stock 17s although I’m a bit iffy on the approach of plastic skins (hubcaps on alloys basically). In fact my favorite F150 look are XL trucks on the silver stamped steel wheels, but I’m weird like that. Out of the “upgrade” wheels, the chrome 6 spoke 18 inch ones I like as well.

    • 0 avatar
      JohnTaurus

      People here tend to act as though there are no trims between stripper XL models and fully loaded Platinums. Smh. No, one doesnt have to pay $60k to get a decently equipped truck. Thank you for pointing that out.

  • avatar
    stingray65

    Ever seen a pickup from the 1950s to early 1970s? It probably had a vinyl bench seat, no power anything, rubber floor mats (hose it out), painted bumper and grill (chrome was extra), dog dish hubcaps on steel wheels, no A/C, no 4WD, AM radio and automatic transmission if the buyer was feeling “fancy”, and almost certainly a 6 cylinder or small V-8 motor. Price was about the same as a compact car, and they were almost all bought by people who used them as work vehicles. You can’t buy a truck like that anymore, as even the bare-bone models come with power steering and brakes, A/C, nice radio, automatic transmission, not to mention fuel injection, airbags, traction control, etc. and if you stick to a really basic work truck and work the dealer and incentives you can get one for not far away from $20K, or about the price of a compact car. Fortunately for manufacturer and dealer profits, virtually nobody wants a truck like that, which is why they sell so many $50K plus cowboy Cadillacs.

    • 0 avatar
      DenverMike

      But the point is you can still get that crazy bare bones pickup with a sprinkling of whatever options are important to you, 4X4 etc, “ala carte”. Remember when you could do that with basically any car.

      Imagine a V8 Mustang with crank windows, upgrade performance axle and “radio delete”? Yeah it wasn’t that long ago.

      • 0 avatar
        TheDutchGun

        As recently as 2006, I bought a mustang GT with cloth interior. Pretty sure it was the only one ever made.

        • 0 avatar
          JimZ

          you still can. The “base” GT has cloth. the “GT Premium” has leather.

          • 0 avatar
            TheDutchGun

            Was not aware, but I’m not sure there was the premium distinction in Canada back in 2006. We tend to get more streamlined options here.

          • 0 avatar
            DenverMike

            The last year of the crank windows and radio delete was ’93, the last of the regular Foxes. The 5.0 option did force the GT brakes, suspension and 15×7 alloys (you can thank Ford in another life), but also could be had with the cheap cloth seats, opposed to the Recaro style.

  • avatar
    427Cobra

    Love having a truck… my first was a ’91 Ranger… standard cab, short bed, 4 cyl 5-speed… bought it for $2k… drove it for 7 years & sold it for $1500. Years later I bought a 2k SuperDuty supercab v10 4×4. Also a great truck. Bought it for $4200… sold it 4 years later for $5k. Moved up to a new (2016) Ram 2500 crew cab short bed 4×4 with the 6.4L Hemi. (the dog needed more room in back) I hadn’t planned to buy new, but the prices on used trucks were nearly as high. I went for the base Tradesman trim level with a few interior & exterior packages, and the 4.10 gears. It was optioned almost to SLT level… had the mid-grade UConnect 5.0, parking sensors, and electronic trailer brake. Sticker was $45.8k. After 5 minutes of negotiation, the price was $35.2k. Done. I was through F&I in under 20 minutes, and had financing below 2%. Did I leave money on the table??? probably… but it was the best (vehicle) purchasing experience I’ve ever had. Yes, the interior is hard, black plastic wherever you look/touch, but it is one of the most quiet, comfortable vehicles I’ve owned. Got 19 mpg on a camping trip last year in the mountains with the 2 of us, a 100 lb dog, and a bed overflowing with camping equipment & firewood. I ain’t complaining. No issues to speak of, other than a few recalls.

  • avatar
    James Charles

    This article highlights the precarious position the Big 3 are in.
    1. Reliance on low interest rates.
    2. Creative loan practices.
    3. Reliance on an ever shrinking product offerings.
    4. A highly protected (25% import tariff) and uncompetitive market segment.

    If you look at the average transaction price of pickups versus the price increase over the past several years against increases running half the current rate the Big 3 would be billions out of pocket. This is all possible due to low interest rates and sloppy extended loans.

    Due to the Big 3’s inability to be competitive in small vehicle production and with the added protection against external pickup truck competition further limits the Big 3. This has created the potential for the Big 3 to be targets for buyouts by foreign interests when a moderate economic downturn occurs …… unless the taxpayer continues bailing out the Big 3.

    The Big 3 need more than themselves to restructure, they need a complete overhaul of the barriers forcing them to be uncompetitive.

    • 0 avatar
      DenverMike

      @BAF0

      Big Three pickups, Tundras, and Titans (yes they still make Titans), are “Protected” only by their greatness!

      So what “competition” could possibly challenge their foothold, that isn’t already for sale in the US, or in existence anywhere on the planet, especially HD pickups up to Class 4?

      Just name ONE of them.. It doesn’t even have to be a real truck, fictional is fine…

    • 0 avatar
      JohnTaurus

      That’s pile of misinformation that only serves to support bias against American manufacturers. If ONLY the “big three” cars were losing sales, then youd have a point. But, they’re not. Even with less competition, Toyota, Honda, Hyundai/Kia etc car sales are falling. This is despite the fact that many are all-new.

      You do realize that Nissan and Toyota do build fullsize trucks, right? They’re the only ones who are uncompetitive. And if they lifted the import tariffs off trucks, exactly which fullsize trucks would be imported and from where? Maybe some ancient Land Cruiser-based truck that would be slow, unrefined, and cost $70k assuming it could pass emissions and crash tests? Yeah! that would show them who’s boss!

      Btw, Ford pays the tariff on the little Transit Connect van. If they can afford to do that on such a cheap vehicle, you’re telling me that Toyota cant afford it on a high-margin truck?

      • 0 avatar
        James Charles

        John,
        I would like to thank you for your contribution how ever misguided and biased it is (your name is a give away). I’m empathetic towards your plight, eg. brand loyalty and nostalgic nationalism.

        But you are failing to drill down into what is keeping the Big 3 afloat. Reread my original comment in this thread.

        You mention Frod importing a van and making a comparison against Toyota without stating Toyota is in a far better position than Ford. Now the consumer is paying for the 25% tariff. Just the very fact this can occur indicates structural regulatory issues in the US vehicle industry. These are low cost appliances, not a whim luxobarge.

        Its all well and good passing off comments, eg Toyota and Nissan produce pickups in the US, without highlighting to 2 significant differences in the Big 3’s position and reliance on pickups versus the non reliance of Toyota and Nissan on full size pickups.

        You must also factor in the minor investment in full sizepickups that Toyota and Nissan make. So are Toyota and Nissan seriously attempting to take on the Big 3?

        Open up, drill into what’s driving the US vehicle market, especially the Big 3.

        Living in the past can distort reality, the truth. Look at the future.

        Have a nice evening.

  • avatar
    JohnTaurus

    If ATPs are rising, then by default, the amount people are willing to pay is rising. How hard is that to understand?

    How can one compare the abilities of a fullsize truck to a midsize crossover? You might as well say the BMW 7 series is overpriced because you can get a Chevy Cruze much cheaper. Even that is more closely analogous than a large truck vs a midsize crossover, because each are sedans and their core functionality is the same. Can a crossover haul a refrigerator upright? Tow as big a trailer/camper/etc? Go as far off-road as a 4×4 truck? Haul the same amount of weight (payload)? Apples and oranges.

    • 0 avatar
      James Charles

      John,
      Odd you queried ‘how can someone compare a pickup to a midsize crossover’.

      I know many who procrastinate over this very problem.
      1. You have a wife who wants a comfortable wagon to cart the 1.8 kids around, handle the shopping and visit the parents.
      2. You have running costs eg, sevicings, tyres, fuel, etc. to consider.
      3. You also consider how much utility and capability you need. The majority of pickups never toe and have scratchless beds.
      4. A big one is ease of operation. A pickup is more cumbersome and offers less flexibility parking and driving. So, the wife has to move the 1.8 kids from the back of the parking lot to the stores or whatever.
      5. Price. You can buy a really nice CUV for the price of a relatively bare pickup.
      6. Even though CUVs are not the best handling vehicles around, their vehicle dynamics are superior to a pickup.

      When I purchased my last vehicle I considered SUVs, CUVs and pickups. Like 75% of pickup owners my ute rarely ever sweats. Its a toy and status symbol. Most pickup owners don’t have the gonads to admit this. They use feeble excuses to justify their purchase.

  • avatar
    DenverMike

    @BAF0 (James Charles)

    Small cars and sedans have been losers for the Big 3 and they’re stronger without them, or subcontracted out (VW).

    But you think the Titan and Tundra were introduced with no intent of competing with Big Three pickups? Both their latest makeovers ended up looking a lot like the F-150 (at the time).

    The marketplace sets the price, not production or other costs of doing business. The Transit Connect has barely received a price increase equal to inflation since it first arrived in 2009. Actually it’s gone down in price about $500, factoring inflation.

    You even call Big Three pickup “uncompetitive” without the import tax, but still fail to show EXACTLY what (imaginary trucks) they would be competing against.

    So according to you, Tundra and Titan pickups were introduced purposely uncompetitive, after billions spent, because Toyota and Nissan are “non reliant” on them?

  • avatar
    Dan

    The only story here is the explosion of the Cadillac trims and that’s a win all around. Luxury truck profits are keeping the lights on in Detroit. Luxury buyers have better options than they did before. And all of the platform development money that they put in for the banker trims has made the XLTs for working people better too.

  • avatar
    DIYer

    I bought a new 2012 Chevy WT V6 2wd 2dr – “El Strippo” for about $22K including tax.

    Standard cab, short bed. Crank windows, manual door locks. AM/FM radio, no CD player. An excellent value. No problems with anything.

    I have 50K miles on it after 7 years, should be reliable until it hits 15 yo or 180K miles, whichever comes first.

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