By on May 19, 2018

1975 Mercedes-Benz 240D in California wrecking yard, RH view - ©2017 Murilee Martin - The Truth About Cars

It’s open season on compression ignition vehicles in the Fatherland. The birthplace of the diesel engine now says German cities can implement diesel driving bans whenever, and wherever, they want.

The Friday ruling by the country’s top court comes after a lawsuit against Germany and four other European Union member states by the EU, the result of higher-than-allowed air pollution levels in numerous urban areas.

“Thanks, dad,” the country’s auto industry must be thinking.

While this may seem like a heavy-handed, “Euro Sausage” type approach to the affairs of European nations by the EU, smog-causing nitrogen oxide isn’t a pleasant gas, and diesel vehicles — older ones especially — are the main culprit.

Germany’s top automakers, each a longtime proponent of diesel technology, stand to lose money and customers as the public, fearful of planned or future bans in their own cities, flock to gas- or electric-powered offerings. Hamburg is expected to implement a diesel ban by the end of the month. Other large cities, like Stuttgart, Dusseldorf, and Munich, could soon follow.

The ruling by the country’s administrative court in Leipzig states that cities can ban the use of diesel-powered cars and trucks on certain roadways, or sections of them, immediately. There’s no grace period. One caveat is that vehicles conforming to ultra-stringent Euro 6 emissions standards would still be allowed. This standard came into effect in 2015.

For broader areas of cities, local governments are allowed to implement a phased approach that allows the operation of vehicles meeting Euro 4 emissions standards (in effect from 2005 to 2009).

The ball really got rolling on diesel bans back in February, when Germany’s top court ruled that environmental groups could sue cities that aren’t taking proper action on enforcing European air pollution rules.

Once the court opened the door to driving bans, sales of diesel cars plunged roughly 25 percent in Germany in March (after sinking 19.5 percent in February and 17.6 percent in January). Incentives appeared on some diesel cars.

In the home country of Volkswagen Group, the automaker is currently in the midst of fixing the emissions software on 2.8 million vehicles. Mercedes-Benz and BMW could be forced to offer upgrades for vehicles with non-Euro 6 engines. According to Reuters, research firm Evercore ISI estimates the ruling could cost the country’s auto industry $17.1 billion.

[Image: ©2017 Murilee Martin/The Truth About Cars]

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85 Comments on “Germany to Cities: Go Nuts With the Diesel Bans, Starting Now...”


  • avatar

    After decades of government support for diesel vehicles with much lower diesel fuel tax rates, now the government want owners to stop driving any vehicles built before 2015 in sensitive areas. What are owners supposed to do with a 2010 vehicle that has only 80,000 km on it that looks and drives like a new car when the tighter-controlled roadways are on their normal driving routes?

    Late model diesel vehicles make VERY expensive garden planters.

    And what will be done with heavy trucks that need to deliver products to those cities?

    A MUCH longer phase in is required, but unlikely to happen in dictatorial countries.

    • 0 avatar
      highdesertcat

      “dictatorial countries.”

      Nah, they just recognized the error of their ways encouraging tiny diesels in the past.

      The diesel freaks have been exposed with their sanctimonious attitude toward gasoline-powered vehicles. Turned out diesel is far nastier than gasoline and all them lying diesel OEMs got caught with their panties around their ankles, bent over the back of a chair.

      Serves ‘m right.

      (My family in Germany and Portugal gave up diesel-powered cars ~ 2005 and drive solely gasoline-powered vehicles now.)

      • 0 avatar
        Dr.Nick

        Turns out? CARB has known this from the 1970s or early 1980s.

        • 0 avatar
          Asdf

          The governments that encouraged people to buy diesel engines already knew about the environmental problems they pose. They have no plausible denial. They encouraged diesels anyway, to lay the foundation for a subsequent ban of cars on a massive scale, that’s the only likely explanation. Governments, as we know, really hate cars and the freedom they bring to the people owning and driving them.

          • 0 avatar
            walleyeman57

            Ding ding ding.
            Fuel or road taxes are used for everything BUT roads and bridges
            Large centralized governments want everyone to conform to a model that discourages any freedom of movement outside of their control.

          • 0 avatar
            Big Al from Oz

            Asdf,
            You are so full of it. Try and research before you believe something.

            Have you ever heard of the Paris Accord?

            This is why the EU moved to diesel, CO2 reduction.

            The problem is the auto manufacturers are just like the US manufacturers. Their into the governments pockets, so diesel emissions didn’t conform to what was required, just like the US “needs” V8s.

          • 0 avatar
            Asdf

            I don’t know if it’s all the globalist Kool-Aid you’re constantly consuming that impairs your judgement, but the push to make consumers choose diesel-powered cars actually predated the Paris agreement, which therefore cannot be what somehow retroactively triggered the policy. It is also telling that diesels are no longer looked upon favourably in the aftermath of the Paris agreement. So I think we can safely say that the Paris agreement is irrelevant in this case.

          • 0 avatar
            HotPotato

            While I’m sure Euro governments liked easier compliance with CO2 targets and the national security implications of reduced dependence on foreign oil, the main driver of diesel adoption in Europe was, well, drivers. Fuel is expensive and people drive stick shifts. More MPG and less shifting is a pretty easy sell.

      • 0 avatar
        civicjohn

        highdesertcat,

        Props to your family, obviously on the leading edge of climate change.

        I find it curious that diesel emissions have been fairly well known for decades, yet you (and the EU) seem to think that it just popped up in the last year (with the prescience of your family notwithstanding)?

        So please explain how the citizens of the EU can remedy this travesty? Government confiscation of diesel-powered cars and subsequent deployment of “one bike per family?”

        “Serves ‘m right.” Serves who right? The people who bought a freaking car and deserve to have it taken away?

        • 0 avatar
          highdesertcat

          civicjohn, I think most people around the world have known or suspected for many decades about the foulness of diesel emissions, especially tiny diesels in passenger cars. All the incentivization by the EU governments notwithstanding.

          I’m against tiny diesels in passenger cars and always have been. I did own a ’96 RAM Cummins at one time when I was working but that would be the smallest diesel I can advocate for in a 3/4-ton pickup truck.

          I have a CDL and I am a proponent of diesels in OTR trucks like 18-wheelers and such.

          The Kenworth, Peterbuilt, Volvo et al diesels of today are truly state-of-the-art and long-lasting. That is an application where Big gas engines simply wear out too fast.

          I’m a half-breed (or a Hybrid if you prefer) of a Portuguese father and a German mother, not quite accepted by either side of the families in Europe, because I’m not pure blood of either side.

          It was through my visits to those families in Europe over the decades that I believe I was able to influence them to wean themselves away from their beloved but polluting, bad smelling and nasty diesel passenger cars.

          They asked what I drove in the States and it was gasoline-powered vehicles. So maybe they saw that if diesel passenger cars were not widely accepted in the States, maybe diesel wasn’t that great of a fuel for passenger cars.

          Serves ‘m right applied to all the gullibles everywhere who chose to go with diesel powered passenger cars. Both the OEMs and the governments really pulled the wool over their eyes.

          We all have to make choices in life. People who chose diesel passenger cars chose badly.

          • 0 avatar
            civicjohn

            highdesertcat,

            Well, I live in the wacky US (and I guess you do as well, given your mention of having a CDL).

            I certainly can’t with any personal knowledge “pin the tail on the donkey”, but I bet you might agree that the commercial trucking industry has certainly done their part, even more so than the car industry to reduce emissions.

            I call you an American if you live in the US,

            I personally HATE hyphenated tags in the US – but I’m sure that I’m not in lockstep with everyone else.

            I was raised in a time of radical changes with the US and education, etc., all of the wonderful busing of kids across town, just IMO, every time I see the government at work, I’ve learned to duck and cover.

          • 0 avatar
            highdesertcat

            civicjohn, yes, I’m a natural-born US citizen, born in Huntington Beach, CA, in 1946, currently living in the High Desert of New Mexico, US of A, The Land of Enchantment and Sanctuary State for illegal aliens of all origins.

            My wife and I try to spend at least 6 month of every year living in another country, as of late Israel, Canada, Germany, Holland, Portugal, Brazil and Old Mexico, where we have relatives who invite us over.

            It gives a person a new perspective on viewing America from an external location.

      • 0 avatar
        Lorenzo

        Serves those automakers right? What about their customers, who over decades of government subsidies, were encouraged to buy diesel cars?

        The dictators are the courts, making implementation decisions that should be made by executive branches and legislatures.

        No grace period? Cars over 5 years old banned, with no compensation to individual owners for lost value? Those city bans are going to cause anger and disrespect for the legal system and local government, and possibly a few riots.

      • 0 avatar
        Big Al from Oz

        HDC,
        Boy, you European family are really on the ball, just like your truly and fantastically successful US family. Wow, I would love to meet your family and all those illegals you employ and all that realestate you own. Full of it or what, man?

    • 0 avatar
      thegamper

      I understand the anger with diesel, but also agree with your point. In this country imagine what would happen if tomorrow you suddenly didn’t know if you could drive your car to work, or make deliveries to your customers. Seems like a year or two phase in is justified at a minimum, but suppose you could argue this has been on the horizon for a few years already it’s just now official.

      I would imagine more than half the vehicles in Europe just took a huge hit in resale. Think of all the new diesels that will languish on dealer lots. I bet lawsuits will ensure. Add that to the price tag.

      Heck, Monday morning there could be company wide manufacturing haults to retool. It may be a tough sell for diesel vehicles everywhere in Europe going forward to the point where you may just want to bite the bullet and stop making them right now.

    • 0 avatar
      Carrera

      Don’t worry JCWConsult. All those 2015 and older diesels will be sold to Moldova, Ukraine, Serbia and all other non-EU countries. They would love to have them and they will. Their value in their home country will plummet (see UK)but the non-EU countries will sweep them all right up. The non-diesel craze has not hit the periphery EU countries ( Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary) and more than likely will not for quite a while…well,not until the EU will put its boot on their neck and force them into compliance ( which they do quite often). I keep reminding my friends in Romania that they made a pact with the devil in 2000, now they cannot complain . Those countries electorate will not pass any crazy anti-diesel bans but they would try to slow down the importation of used diesel vehicles by making up “green taxes”. All the other non-EU countries will take most of them in.

      • 0 avatar

        This. I was amazed that a few years ago in Germany, 90 percent of the fleet was diesel. We stopped at a BMW store near the Bodensee, and there were two of forty plus cars that had spark plugs….

        I’ve also seen some of Eastern Europe. Think of Western Europe but very poor. The whole motor pool are cars that look nothing like the perfect motor pool in Western Europe. When Germany did cash for clunkers, these cars all Went East, not eating grit like ours did…..

        All these diesels will go east. When the Diesel Particulate filters or EGR systems go, they will be tossed on a scrap heap and the electronics re programmed/hacked. Meanwhile, Western Europe will feel Green and the auto makers will get a boost of sales-all these cars will keep running, probably longer than in the West, and with no emission controls when they wear out…..

        • 0 avatar
          05lgt

          NOX, unlike carbon has localized effects, so moving the polution east works if you’re selfish.

        • 0 avatar
          DenverMike

          “…All these diesels will go east. When the Diesel Particulate filters or EGR systems go, they will be tossed on a scrap heap…”

          A similar thing happened in the US when gasoline autos got strapped with emissions and the US got tough with “Smog Checks”.

          No cars were “banned” per say but when they failed a smog check, it came down to expensive repairs, or with older cars, selling them to Mexico (importers) made the most sense.

          It became so bad, Mexico banned imported used cars coming from the US, unless they’re 10 years old, no older, no newer.

          I’ve been saying for several years the only real solution for Europe would be to start banning diesels, but I didn’t think they’d actually do it.

  • avatar
    Sub-600

    Diesel vehicles are the least of Germany’s problems.

    • 0 avatar
      Carrera

      Hahah, yeah no kidding Sub-600, but the new anti-diesel laws will refocus the attention of the plebs from the real problems.

      • 0 avatar
        TwoBelugas

        Hey now, they need just time to settle in that million of just elderly, women and children. Don’t worry about it. If your daughter ever visits and gets harassed by “german youths” who look oddly non-German, I’m sure it’s just a cultural misunderstanding.

        /s

        • 0 avatar
          Sub-600

          Yeah, it’s also just a cultural misunderstanding when German dentists discover oddly non-German looking small children with impacted wisdom teeth, lol.

          • 0 avatar
            Patrick M

            Wow, most racist thread I’ve ever seen on TTAC? Leave immigrants and refugees alone.

          • 0 avatar
            Hummer

            Lol @ trying to stop people from talking about realistic scenarios that are actually happening with the racist dog whistle. When facts hurt your feelings resort to calling names.

          • 0 avatar
            TwoBelugas

            So Patrick M is PRO-crime-against-women?

          • 0 avatar
            Hydromatic

            Sad to see some of our….less illustrious…TTAC commenters get in on the EU Muslim immigrant hysteria.

            “Lol @ trying to stop people from talking about realistic scenarios that are actually happening with the racist dog whistle. When facts hurt your feelings resort to calling names.”

            So I take it you have a “final solution” for these scenarios, huh?

          • 0 avatar
            30-mile fetch

            “So Patrick M is PRO-crime-against-women?”

            Yes, the same way TwoBelugas is PRO-families-slaughtered-by-dictator. TwoBelugas supports using government barrel bombs on the civilian populace. I cannot believe it! You heard it here first, folks, he just admitted it!

            My god, some of the pseudo-intellectual internet sewer creatures that have nestled into this site. Burying their heads in deep like a tick, disgorging disease into the bloodstream as they feed…

          • 0 avatar
            ToddAtlasF1

            When all else fails, call people names. If denying reality and insulting people is all you have left in the way of an argument, could it be that you’ve been wrong about practically everything all along? Look at it as an opportunity for growth. Are you really happy about finding yourself cheerleading for FGM, MS-13 and dismantling the Bill of Rights? Have you seen the videos of Slick Willy, Shrub, and Obama making the exact same campaign promise to move our Israeli Embassy to Jerusalem that Trump actually delivered on? Nobody likes to face their short-comings, but at least put down the shovel.

          • 0 avatar
            30-mile fetch

            I sure hope that wasn’t directed at me, Todd, since I’ve done none of your examples.

            But, since you’ve tangentially brought in TGM and MS-13 in order to be crude and insulting to *someone* on this thread, I’ll just say that you have no reason to call anyone out on using insults or denying reality. Ever. You’ve done this stuff for years. You are the tick.

            And your heady question of “could it be that you’ve been wrong about practically everything all along?” Well, if you’ve honestly asked that of yourself since your own opinions ossified into terminal self-satisfaction and smugness, it would be a bigger miracle than Christ rising from the Tomb.

            Have a great day, Todd. This triggered snowflake is checking out.

          • 0 avatar
            markf

            “Wow, most racist thread I’ve ever seen on TTAC? Leave immigrants and refugees alone.”

            Hmm, so for 100 millionth time, islam is a religion, not a race. Now repeat….. “immigrants” are not a “race” so please explain how the comments are “RACISTS” OMG

        • 0 avatar
          05lgt

          Moderators, may we please have a block commenter function?

          • 0 avatar
            Sub-600

            Nancy Pelosi, Chuck Schumer, and Kamala Harris don’t care for the name “MS-13”, they prefer to call them “our core constituency”.

          • 0 avatar
            markf

            “Moderators, may we please have a block commenter function?”

            Moderators, please protect me from words that violate my safe space

  • avatar
    DenverMike

    I’ve been wondering when the fan would hit the sh!t storm, 10+ years. Diesel’s cancer causing downside has been well known for at least as long. And it had to be the rising costs of health care that finally broke the donkey’s back.

    I’m sorry but if you own a diesel in Europe, you had to know you were rolling the dice. I knew it and I’m half a world away and half retarded.

  • avatar
    stingray65

    Germany: Ban diesels, build coal powered electricity generation plants, close nukes, subsidize EVs. Perfectly rational plan to maintain the purity of the Master Race.

    • 0 avatar
      mcs

      @stingray: “build coal powered electricity generation plants”

      That’s not what is happening. They are having a lot of success with wind and solar. Instead of building coal plants, they are getting ready to hold auctions for offshore space for private industry to use for wind generation.

      https://www.energy-charts.de/power_inst.htm

      • 0 avatar
        stingray65

        According to multiple sources, Germany has opened several new coal plants as they have shut down clean nuclear power. It seems solar panels don’t generate much power at night.

        https://www.fastcompany.com/3055915/new-german-power-plant-takes-coal-burning-efficiency-to-a-new-level

        https://notalotofpeopleknowthat.wordpress.com/2015/11/20/germany-opens-another-new-coal-plant/

        https://instituteforenergyresearch.org/analysis/france-germany-turn-coal/

        • 0 avatar
          mcs

          But, as the charts and statistics show, the percentage of coal power is still diminishing in Germany. You’re also providing a 3-year-old link. Things have changed.

          While solar panels don’t produce much power at night, you can have battery storage or other grid energy storage methods to provide a source at night. There are a number of pumped storage facilities in Germany as well:

          https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_von_Pumpspeicherkraftwerken#Deutschland

          None of this happens overnight. It takes time. As a disclaimer, I do currently own 100% of a small fossil fuel producer – oil and natural gas. Rather than paying lobbyists to hire social media influencers and throwing away money to thwart alternative energy, I’m investing in the new technology. Besides, the technology side of my business uses huge amounts of electricity and I need something like solar combined with batteries to keep it profitable.

          I’m also thinking of pumped underground storage since the geothermally cooled water might be used for cooling equipment as well. That might still be over my budget, but I’m starting to research it.

  • avatar
    hreardon

    I don’t have an issue with individuals (or groups) realizing the errors of their ways and then changing course.

    However, the Volkswagen diesel scandal and the subsequent change of heart of EU governments does bring to light the reality of how both corporations AND government can be extraordinarily bad, if unchecked.

    To those who feel that government needs to be the ultimate arbitrator in personal affairs: remember that the knife cuts both ways depending on who is in power. And to those who feel that the free market is unconditionally the only way to manage our world, remember that the people who benefit the most (shareholders) will often look the other way when it is in their financial interest to do so.

    No system will ever be perfect, but we must continually be involved, skeptical and inquisitive about the systems and people who influence our lives.

  • avatar
    ThomasSchiffer

    The reality is that the air quality in German cities has been improving since the 1960s. The current air quality is actually very good. The fear mongering about ‘bad air quality’ is directly related to placing emissions sensors in areas with known heavy traffic jams and using data gathered during peak traffic. It is called cherry-picking.

    Yes, Stuttgart and Hamburg have air quality issues. Stuttgart is in a valley surrounded by mountains, and Hamburg is a major port; take a guess where their air problems come from. The answer are not cars.

    I drive a diesel vehicle, and if I am banned from a certain city then that’s no problem; I will simply avoid that city and take my business elsewhere. I just feel sorry for the shop and business owners who will lose a huge portion of their customers because they cannot drive into the city. Leave it to incompetent politicians to destroy local businesses and of course endanger jobs in the automotive industry. Other nations protect their industries and workforce, but it seems in Europe politicians are doing everything they can to destroy our way of life without thinking of the consequences.

    Diesel sales have crashed and CO2 emissions have increased thanks to a sales surge in gasoline-powered vehicles. Without diesel vehicles the CO2 targets cannot be met. Pardon me, once they ban gasoline vehicles then perhaps we will see a drop in CO2 emissions. This move is empowering radical environmentalist groups that not only want to ban diesel cars but also gasoline-powered automobiles. And once these radicals realize that electric cars are not the solution they will want them banned on the spot.

    • 0 avatar
      ajla

      “Without diesel vehicles the CO2 targets cannot be met. Pardon me, once they ban gasoline vehicles then perhaps we will see a drop in CO2 emissions. This move is empowering radical environmentalist groups that not only want to ban diesel cars but also gasoline-powered automobiles.”

      Pretty much. Your only hope is to vote into power parties that don’t support these types of policies. However, I don’t know if such groups even exist in Western Europe these days.

    • 0 avatar
      DenverMike

      “…politicians are doing everything they can to destroy…”

      Yeah as they should. Remember they crafted this man-made disaster in the 1st place. So it’ll take some drastic measures to make things right, in a timely manner.

      Any “inconveniences” have to take a backseat to clearing the unhealthy, cancer causing, disgusting air.

      • 0 avatar
        ThomasSchiffer

        Denver Mike,

        How on earth did people survive in the 1940s and 1980s, when cars didn’t have any (or at best primitive) pollution control systems such as catalytic converters and still burned leaded gasoline? Somehow they all survived.

        Modern diesel technology is state-of-the-art and clean. My brother runs a taxi business in Munich. The new EURO 6d Mercedes E-Klassen are quiet, refined and they do not smell.

        It is silly to blame diesel exhaust for sicknesses in people, especially since it cannot be proven. How on earth is diesel exhaust responsible for cancer in Person A but not in Person B? Those articles which claim that diesel exhaust affects a certain number of people a year are unsubstantiated. I would put our lazy modern lifestyles and unhealthy eating habits and excessive indulgences in tobacco and alcohol ahead of any car-based pollution. My wife, a medical doctor, agrees. Europe has a cigarette smoking epidemic. If someone were to develop cancer then I am willing to wager it is due to prolonged exposure to tobacco and nicotine, not from automobile exhaust.

        I am not denying that car-based exhaust, diesel or gasoline, are harmful, but what the media is doing is called fear-mongering. And claiming that diesel exhaust is directly responsible for cancer in certain individuals is laughable.

        My grandfather was a coal-miner in the Rhineland during the 1960s and 1980s and he was exposed to hefty levels of unleaded gasoline/diesel exhaust and coal dust for much of his working life. He lived to the ripe old age of 95. I attribute his longevity to the fact that he ate healthy and remained athletic throughout his life.

        • 0 avatar
          DenverMike

          Of course we never know if we’ve been lied to. We’re not scientists so how can we *know* know? My grandfather lived to 101 chainsmoking cigarettes like a locomotive from the age of 12 so shouldn’t we ignore every thing they’ve told us about smoking cigarettes?

          Btw, Europe required catalytic converters about 15 years after the US required them. Yeah it could all be a conspiracy, fake news, etc, but I’d rather not chance it. Yes I don’t have a “dog in this fight”, so I can see your point of view.

          And yeah “if true” diesel exhaust, especially unfiltered affects mostly the unborn, very young, very old or with preexisting heart and lung conditions, and who really cares about them anyway? Them ain’t us!!

          Can you even trust Euro “clean diesels” ? Yes we’re smarter now about a lot things that were supposedly killing us. Like what year was it when smoke detectors were required in new homes and rental? Now carbon monoxide detectors are required too. What about GFI circuits?

          Do your own research if you dare or care. Either way it’s clear, breathing diesel exhaust is nasty, makes you gag, eyes water when unfiltered, from across the road or driving behind an old diesel, which are really the focus of the bans. How that’s a bad thing, if you don’t happen to own an old/older diesel, is bizarre to me but YMMV.

      • 0 avatar
        civicjohn

        So DenverMike,

        Where are you packing up and taking your family to get away from the “disgusting air”?

        Gonna have to get off the grid, so let TTAC know when you’re firmly ensconced in a tent, or maybe a tent created too many emissions when it was manufactured.

        • 0 avatar
          Big Al from Oz

          civicjohn,
          DenverMike, lives in Winnepeg and has banned bedding and using sleeping bags (in our military we call sleeping bags fart sacks). Methane issues.

          Oh, don’t worry about DenverMike, have an indepth discussion with him. You’ll soon find out he has little substance in his beliefs.

    • 0 avatar
      HotPotato

      It is not cherry picking to acknowledge that current air quality in congested areas is bad. You may be fine with that if you live in the countryside. But people who live or work in the central city have every reason to be concerned.

      It is true that there are radical environmentalists who want all cars banned, whether gas, diesel, or electric. But they are not the majority of any voting public.

      I foresee few, if any, outright diesel bans. I do expect rules that tax vehicle entry to some city centers at certain times, with exemptions for electric cars and PHEVs running in electric mode. No different in concept than toll or carpool lanes, really.

    • 0 avatar
      HotPotato

      It is not cherry picking to acknowledge that current air quality in congested areas is bad. You may be fine with that if you live in the countryside. But people who live or work in the central city have every reason to be concerned.

      It is true that there are radical environmentalists who want all cars banned, whether gas, diesel, or electric. But they are not the majority of any voting public.

      I foresee few, if any, outright diesel bans. I do expect rules that tax vehicle entry to some city centers at certain times, with exemptions for electric cars and PHEVs running in electric mode. No different in concept than toll or carpool lanes, really.

    • 0 avatar
      HotPotato

      It is not cherry picking to acknowledge that current air quality in congested areas is bad. You may be fine with that if you live in the countryside. But people who live or work in the central city have every reason to be concerned.

      It is true that there are radical environmentalists who want all cars banned, whether gas, diesel, or electric. But they are not the majority of any voting public.

      I foresee few, if any, outright diesel bans. I do expect rules that tax vehicle entry to some city centers at certain times, with exemptions for electric cars and PHEVs running in electric mode. No different in concept than toll or carpool lanes, really.

    • 0 avatar
      HotPotato

      It is not cherry picking to acknowledge that current air quality in congested areas is bad. You may be fine with that if you live in the countryside. But people who live or work in the central city have every reason to be concerned.

      It is true that there are radical environmentalists who want all cars banned, whether gas, diesel, or electric. But they are not the majority of any voting public.

      I foresee few, if any, outright diesel bans. I do expect rules that tax vehicle entry to some city centers at certain times, with exemptions for electric cars and PHEVs running in electric mode. No different in concept than toll or carpool lanes, really.

  • avatar
    Spike_in_Brisbane

    I wonder what would happen next if Germany were a member of the TPP (Trans Pacific Partnership) which allows corporations to sue governments which pass legislation that negatively affects their business?

  • avatar

    Don’t Germans use coal to generate electricity since NPPs are banned? How about that? Europeans turned out to be fools and nevertheless do not stop lecturing us how to live our miserable lives.

  • avatar
    Vipul Singh

    Just logged in to say that I loved the ‘Yes, Minister’ reference! :)

  • avatar
    Jerome10

    This must be remembered.

    Going off memory here but a couple years ago when I lived in Germany I was paying something like €0.22/kWh. So roughly $0.26 USD at today’s rate.

    Now that I’m back in the USA I think I’m paying about $0.09-$0.10 USD / kWh depending on consumption.

    German electricity prices are insane. Brag about solar or wind if you want, but that cost is not insignificant. Shows up in goods, train tickets, etc. Yet all you hear is this amazing German renewable power supply…. Nobody ever mentions the cost.

    • 0 avatar
      highdesertcat

      The rate in NM, USA is currently $0.17 per KWh and going up to $0.21 per KWh for many customers as soon as the PRC clears it. That’s a lot of money because most homes here have TWO refrigerated-air units, necessary because of outside temperatures often reach well over 100-degrees April-Nov.

      The power companies are losing money hand over fist at the 17-cent rate since they chose to pursue solar and wind options which are not sustainable without subsidies and rate increases because “the sun don’t always shine” and “the wind don’t always blow.”

      Another bad policy initiated by the last administration.

      • 0 avatar
        Yurpean

        Shut up and sit down. Like a clockwork you never fail to deliver the stupidest and wrongest hypothesis imaginable. And when called out you retreat to the age old geezeresque “it could be this it could be that” squidink cloud of butthurt.

        The reason for NM high electricity prices is the insane demand for AC cooling which is stretching the grid beyond capacity. The only way of preventing brown outs and a total collapse is the capitalistic market solution: raise prices until demand stabilizes.

        • 0 avatar
          highdesertcat

          You’re wrong, chump.

          We did fine at 11-cents with coal before solar and wind were mandated by the last administration and the coal-fired plants were forced to close by their EPA.

          NM is supposedly rich in both sun and wind but the residents had absolutely no say in the generation matter but were forced to subsidize it anyway. Only to see most of it exported out of state.

          NM is an sparsely populated state of less than 2 million residents. We pipe in electricity from four sources in addition to the coal-fired plants.

          My electricity comes off the TX grid from El Paso. Much of the remaining state gets their electricity from the Palos Verde nuclear plant in AZ. Eastern NM gets much of their electricity from Lubbock, TX.

          If YOU knew what you’re talking about, you’d be dangerous.

          No doubt, you were one of the kids left behind in school.

          You really need to do some research like at the PNM and PRC websites. Maybe even offer your input to them since you’re not paying our rates.

          These conversions were forced on a lot of states who were doing fine with coal, nuclear and gas.

        • 0 avatar
          George B

          Yurpean, areas of Texas adjacent to New Mexico have noticeably lower electricity rates despite similar demand for air conditioning. Take Andrews, TX 79714, for example.
          https://www.vaultelectricity.com/Andrews.html
          Not much difference in climate for the adjacent counties on either side of the state line. I would guess that the difference is that Texas utilities built lots of natural gas fueled generating capacity along with the enormous wind farms and many separate power generating companies compete to provide retail power in Texas.

          • 0 avatar
            highdesertcat

            “built lots of natural gas fueled generating capacity”

            That’s true.

            In addition, since natgas is very cheap and sold at cost in NM, many homeowners, farmers, ranchers, hospitals and other businesses have installed natgas-fired generators, which can be run during peak demand periods, thus reducing both grid-demand and expense.

            I’ve got a Kohler 22KW natgas-fired generator in my patio, like many homeowners, and it is more than sufficient to power everything, including both AC units, dryer, stove&oven, everything, at the same time, 24/7.

            Max draw for this home is 200 amps with a 200-amp service. Never even got close to it.

            I run the Kohler backup generator every Sunday from 12 noon to 6 pm, and in fact I was running it while I was posting on ttac earlier.

          • 0 avatar
            Yurpean

            Exactly. TX lowered their energy prices because of massive windfarms generating it at rock bottom cost and NatGas supplying fast spin up backup. Solar adds capacity for daytime spikes and with all that you got yourself a bitchin’ energy industry. Texas knows energy and BBQ (and got some dumb luck with that insane wind!)

            Yet this dimm bulb yammers how the coal plants were killed by that scary black dude. NatGas killed coal. Fracking killed coal. CHENEY KILLED COAL. How do you brush your teeth without poking out an eye?

            NatGas burns cleaner, hotter, faster, easier to transport, esier to shutdown, and CHEAPER.

          • 0 avatar
            Big Al from Oz

            George,
            Here in Australia we have some of the highest electricity costs in the World.

            The costs are put down to infrastructure replacement. They found out alot of the infrastructure replace was not required, but the consumer still foots the bill.

          • 0 avatar
            IBx1

            In the same vein, I live here in Houston where it could be considered a little warm and sort of humid. I pay $0.087/kWh and none of it is from the wind farms that help put towns near Austin in the negative rates during nights. Our rates are low because it’s an unregulated market, meaning the government doesn’t stick its hands in as much with regards to setting a price for power.

  • avatar
    Maxb49

    Brilliant. First the government influences its citizens to buy these vehicles, then they penalize the owners who heeded the government’s incentives/wishes. Reminds me why I left the EU.

    • 0 avatar
      highdesertcat

      The people had a choice. They could have bought gasoline-powered vehicles.

      Another life-lesson learned. Sometimes a person can do everything right in their life……, and still turn out a loser.

      In this case losing status, money, transportation and mobility if these diesel cars have to be parked.

    • 0 avatar
      Big Al from Oz

      Maxb49,
      Well, it’s sad and I would not blame the government alone. The manufacturers would not of wanted to invest in better emission controls for their diesel products. So, the government bent over and gave in as well. But, business and I’d even bet auto union workers would of lobbied to not implement harsher emissions equipment.

      Look at the US with it’s ridiculous rollback on CAFE. Same, same, sh!t.

      • 0 avatar
        IBx1

        BAfO, the government set arbitrary emissions requirements with no knowledge of the laws of physics governing compression-ignition engines and without a care that we have reached the point of diminishing returns. Their goal is to ban all cars because the oligarchs cannot stand the plebs moving about freely. To them, this is even worse than the first time a peasant bought a horse.

  • avatar
    JD-Shifty

    wow, look at all the racists and trump base morons on this site

  • avatar
    St.George

    We used to live in Germany (Cologne to be exact) and moved back to the US in 2015. A couple of points:-

    – Fuel is expensive (taxation policy), diesels are/were therefore very popular. We had a 2008 VW Golf Kombi (known as a sportwagon here) TDi, very torquey, tiny hp but amazing on fuel.
    – German cities can be very grimy, I biked to work through Cologne every day, black particulates cover everything (these could come from diesel vehicles &/or the coal powerplants)
    – The coal industry is huge and very powerful politically. There are several massive opencast coal mines & neighboring coal fired powerplants to the West of Cologne. Trying to keep your home windows clean is very difficult….
    – Everyone was always ill with low grade colds & respiratory ailments. Anecdotal for sure but obviously prevalent.

    It’s noticeable how much cleaner things seem back in the good ‘ol US. I’m sure it’s not just the diesel thing but a combination of factors.

    Just my 5c worth.

    • 0 avatar
      markf

      I returned in 2016 after living in Germany for 5 years. Agree on your observations plus, the two times I went to Cologne I found the city to be overwhelmed by the stench of urine…….


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