By on September 13, 2016

2017 Chrysler Pacifica Limited Billet Silver

From the get-go, the nine-speed automatic designed by Germany’s ZF in the United States and built and tuned by Fiat Chrysler Automobiles was deserving of criticism. It was criticism that FCA could not righteously label as unfair, criticism the automaker could not deny.

“We have had to do an inordinate amount of intervention on that transmission, surely beyond what any of us had forecast,” FCA boss Sergio Marchionne said early last year.

The nine-speed, responsible for sending power from a variety of engines to the front wheels of a large number of vehicles, became a reliability nightmare for many buyers who either didn’t perceive its shortcomings on a test drive, or didn’t care. Unless drivers ventured well beyond posted speed limits, the nine-speed wasn’t even able to benefit from its ninth gear. Surely deserving of partial blame for the Chrysler 200’s demise, the ZF 9HP was clearly launched long before it was ready.

Nearly three years since my first exposure to the nine-speed in a 3.2-liter V6-powered Jeep Cherokee, I’m driving a 2017 Chrysler Pacifica Limited this week. It’s a stunning minivan, and at CAD $62,340, it’s a minivan with which one needs a whole week to get a full picture. Yet only a few minutes into our first drive in the new Pacifica, it was clear that FCA had finally sorted the previously dreadful nine-speed.

Almost. Mostly. Sort of.

NOT NEWS

How bad was it in the beginning? In that first Cherokee I drove, I said, “Getting up to speed sometimes involved the sensation that the Cherokee was falling into gear, like an elevator in an old building which safely brings its passengers down from the sixth level to the second but then, with a jolt, bangs into the ground floor.”

A few months later in a V6-powered Chrysler 200, the nine-speed was found to be “hanging on to revs before finally falling into second, then third, then fourth.”

More than a year later and with a different engine in the Jeep Renegade, “you’ll discover a transmission that’s typically unwilling to kick down a gear, let alone the two or three-gear-kickdown that’s required.”

In the Renegade’s Fiat 500X partner: “The 9-speed’s weak points — slamming into second and third gear like it’s been tossed off a cliff — are highlighted on a cold winter’s morning.”

To be fair, it wasn’t just FCA’s software tune. Linked to a 3.5-liter V6 in the Acura TLX, the nine-speed “periodically clunks into a higher gear, doesn’t favor paddle participation, and even with eight others to choose from it’s typically not keen on changing into a higher or lower gear.”

In the Land Rover Discovery Sport, writes Car And Driver, “The engine’s slight hesitations are exacerbated by a transmission that downshifts with uncomfortable, pregnant pauses between the accelerator input and the gear change,” continuing the complaining for another 77 words with the Jeep Cherokee lumped in for good measure.

2017 Chrysler Pacifica doors open

As a result, my expectations for the all-new Chrysler minivan’s transmission performance were low. After all, even rival minivan builders that aren’t linking V6 engines to the oft-dreaded ZF nine-speed don’t exactly shine in the transmission department. The six-speed in GCBC’s own long-term Honda Odyssey is improving with age, but there are still plenty of odd shifts when accelerating uphill. The six-speeds in the Kia Sedona and Toyota Sienna are smoother, but they’re only smooth in the sense that each shift is masked with way too much butter, as though an attempt to snap off anything resembling a quick shift would result in a full-body shudder.

GOOD NEWS

But praises be, after driving the 2017 Pacifica around town for a while the performance of the nine-speed transmission comes to mind precisely because the transmission does not call attention to itself.

At first, an attempt to be mindful of the nine-speed’s shift patterns is difficult. Focusing on largely undetectable behavior is, even for someone who routinely pays particular attention to transmission comportment, no easy task.

Undetectable. That’s the key word. Inconspicuous, perhaps. Some introspection is required to realize that the Pacifica is accelerating more rapidly than other minivans not only because of abundant horsepower (287 at 6,400 rpm) and low curb weight — top-spec competitors weigh between 223 and 326 pounds more than the Pacifica Limited — but because the nine-speed is rapidly shuffling through lower gears without any disturbance under truly heavy throttle application.

FCA ZF first 9-speed automatic

All is bliss.

BAD NEWS

Until, for example, you’re cruising on a highway’s relatively flat plane and for no discernible reason the nine-speed slams into eighth with enough of a jolt to wake a dead-to-the-world two-year-old. Enough of a jolt and shudder for a spectacularly pregnant wife to look over in disgust, and for me to briefly believe that this van is broken.

“What? I didn’t do it, there aren’t even paddles. It’s not like I sent you into premature labor.”

TTAC’s managing editor had a similar experience in this very Pacifica before he fled Nova Scotia with a Fiesta and a U-Haul.

Said Mr. Stevenson this morning: “The Pacifica’s nine-speed is like a jacked best friend with a hair trigger. If you give it the inputs it expects, it’s wholly normal and predictable. But catch it off guard by sneaking up behind it and tapping it on the shoulder with some throttle, it’s as likely to turn around and say hello as it is to kiss you with an enclosed fist. The transmission is completely bipolar, and swings in mood are violent.”

Perfection then? Quite clearly not, as four hours in the Pacifica, with plenty of time left before it leaves our driveway next weekend, have produced wildly mixed results. The 2017 Chrysler Pacifica’s nine-speed automatic performs well when true performance is demanded and when you’re slogging through suburban sprawl. Sadly, all is not well in a variety of other circumstances.

Software update, please?

[Images: © Timothy Cain/The Truth About Cars, FCA]

Timothy Cain is the founder of GoodCarBadCar.net, which obsesses over the free and frequent publication of U.S. and Canadian auto sales figures. Follow on Twitter @goodcarbadcar and on Facebook.

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70 Comments on “With The 2017 Chrysler Pacifica, Has FCA Finally Sorted The ZF 9-Speed Automatic? Very Nearly...”


  • avatar
    gearhead77

    I will be interested to see how this plays out and to experience each minivan when our Oddys lease expires in May. The Odyssey is shifting much better after a 25k ATF change, but it’s still not as smooth or decisive as the 5spd automatic in my Mazda 5 or the 6spd auto in my Cruze.

    Now, it’s not apples to apples, I know. But the Mazda is able to wring all it can out of minimal power without a harsh or indecisive shift. It was like that new and 7 years/50k later.

    C&D has an article comparing the 1984 Voyager to the new Pacifica. It’s an eye opener. The first Voyager is the size of my Mazda 5.

    • 0 avatar
      npaladin2000

      Ahh, back when men were men and Mini was really Mini….I learned to drive on that generation.

      • 0 avatar
        cdotson

        I too learned to drive in a 1984 Plymouth Voyager “Magic Wagon.” It was metallic brown with the woodgrain paneling and two-tone brown vinyl interior. It had the 2.6L Mitsbishi 4cyl whose 2bbl carb had a bad auto choke so my dad installed an honest choke pull cable. I don’t think that van went 2 whole consecutive years with functional A/C the entire time my family owned it.

  • avatar
    PrincipalDan

    If Toyota (famously a little conservative when it comes to these sorts of things) tops out at 8 speeds, there’s likely a good reason.

    9 is just a bridge too far, but I can’t wait for that 11 speed transmission that Honda has filled a patent for!

    • 0 avatar
      yamahog

      And although it’s easy to deride Toyota’s transmissions as unresponsive to driver input (IMO they’re a little slow to kick down, and they take one-Mississippi, two-mississippi to respond to moving the shift column (e.g from D to 3) but it seems like the ECU/TCU use the time to align everything. It’s not great that the paddles even suck in F-sport cars but they spend the time getting it right in D/sport mode and if you leave the transmission alone, it works well enough.

      IIRC, Toyota said they spent a ton of time getting the skip-shifting right in the 8 speed (which is why Volvo uses it, they don’t want the transmission to act weird in an emergency situation). I think the 8 speed was designed to go immediately from 7th/8th to 2nd/3rd gear and it shows.

      Tellingly, Toyota hasn’t moved production of the transmission outside of Japan. It’s unusual for them not to proliferate a transmission after 10 years but it’s still a relatively low volume transmission and I’m sure they think it’s more cost-effective to keep it in Japan than internationalize it.

      • 0 avatar
        PrincipalDan

        The 5 speed in my (2nd gen) Highlander is a little dimwitted. It is sometimes slow to kick down or or shifts a little harshly once it has finally made the decision. But yes leave it alone and it does well enough. The reviewers of the day criticized it for “hunting.”

        The greater surprise to me is how quickly Toyota went from 5 speed to 6 speed to 8 speed in the Highlander. They finally made the switch to 6 speed with the new 3rd generation but only made the 6 speed for about 2 model years before switching to 8 speeds. For Toyota that’s faster than normal change.

        • 0 avatar

          I think the worst auto I’ve drive so far was my 2001 outback. That 4 speed never knew what to do around town. I had to drive a lot of short distances around the state when I had it for work. At the end of the day you would be exhausted from the dimwitted transmission constantly going the wrong way.

      • 0 avatar
        Spartan

        I own an XC90 T8 with the Aisin 8AT and I can attest to this. It’s a great transmission. It isn’t doesn’t shift as quickly as the ZF 8 speed, but the shifts are smooth and it’s never in the wrong gear.

  • avatar
    dukeisduke

    It’s like the second coming of Chrysler’s Ultradrive. Or GM’s THM200.

    How many gears do you really need, anyway?

  • avatar
    Click REPLY to reload page

    So it’s still the Not Ready for Prime Time Transmission.
    That’s a great way to ruin present and future sales of your products, FCA. You have to make the current potential owners recommend FCA products to their friends, not tell them to stay away.
    Maybe the fix would be a nice snickety 6-speed manual? That would be nice, but not likely, since most minivan buyers have unfortunately never learned to drive with a real transmission.

    It might be better for FCA to just outsource a decent transmission from someone else, if they can’t get it right by themselves.

    • 0 avatar
      JohnTaurus_3.0_AX4N

      Are you paying attention? This transaxle *was* outsourced, to ZF. FCA does manufacture it, but ZF designed it. That’s why Mr. Cain referenced other cars that use this unit, and those obviously aren’t manufactured by FCA (suggesting this isn’t simply poor assembly quality manifested as reliability and driveability concerns).

      I don’t think there is a huge market for manual trans minivans, although I’d love an old Aerostar or a new Transit Connect with a manual. That would be a fantastic way to severely limit Pacifica’s appeal, it would probably be out sold by the Mazda6. I seriously doubt that your average soccer mom wants to drive a manual, its not really an issue of knowing how so much as it is an issue of not wanting to deal with it.

      • 0 avatar
        john2016

        Actually the articles says, “…and built and tuned by Fiat Chrysler Automobiles …”. Most of the work in getting good performance out of a transmission is in the integration and calibration of the engine/transmission combination to the particular target vehicle. This takes a lot of time and effort (and money), which is something FCA traditionally has been reluctant to spend.

    • 0 avatar
      jpolicke

      A 6 speed manual in a minivan? Right, because soccer moms across the fruited plain will suddenly develop a craving for shifting their own gears.

      Right after we colonize Mars.

  • avatar
    johnhowington

    in other news, they have an excellent 8 speed behind rams that just needs to be shrunk for transverse use.

    • 0 avatar
      PrincipalDan

      Interesting point given that Chrysler’s first fwd transmission was basically the Torqueflite turned sideways – the transmission is not something you heard K-car owners complaining about (at least the original 3 speed version.)

      • 0 avatar
        Zackman

        Our good old Torqueflites in our 1984 E-Class, our 1990 Acclaim and 1992 LeBaron convertible were swell. Not a single issue, but dead-reliable.

        Not so the Ultradrive on the 1993 Spirit w/V6. Problems were beginning, so we traded for the used Intrepid. Our 1996 Intrepid, although a nice car, was traded for the Stratus, as I was wary of the Ultradrive, along with occasional hard-starting issues after the fuel rail recall.

        The tranny on the 1999 Stratus was, I believe, the Torqueflite as well, with the 2.4L. That was our last Chrysler product, and have never looked back.

        • 0 avatar
          JimZ

          no, the Stratus had a 41TE too (Ultradrive.) the teething problems with the transmission design had been sorted out by about 1992; any lingering problems were from idiot owners not reading the owner’s manual and putting in Dexron III fluid instead of the requires ATF+4.

          • 0 avatar
            Zackman

            Thanks, JimZ. I never bothered to check what tranny it was because the car was just a “placeholder” until something better came along, and we sold it before the warranty ran out.

            It was a pretty good car, though.

          • 0 avatar
            Truckducken

            Hey, easy on the “idiots” statement…it took a few years for Mopar to bother specifying Mopar fluid in these units. Hell, on the LH’s, they didn’t even disclose the existence of a timing belt in their service lit at first. RTFM just didn’t work out for us beta testers.

          • 0 avatar
            golden2husky

            It didn’t help that Chrysler had mismarked many an Ultradrive dipstick stating to use Dex. Oops!

            The 3 speed used in the K’s was a superb unit; our car went over a quarter-million miles with one trans fluid change and the trans still worked well.

      • 0 avatar

        Yeah as much as people knock the 3 speed in the neon it was likely a wise choice on plymouths part.

  • avatar
    RedRocket

    Has anyone figured out why this transmission is in use by a number of auto manufacturers? Surely there are other choices available.

    • 0 avatar
      yamahog

      You gotta think that ZF is cutting great deals on this. And people really seem to like ZF’s 8 speed transmission (although that was made for longitudinal layouts).

      Other people have used Aisin’s / Toyota’s FWD 8 speed and it’s gone well. The transmission holds up very well in the RX’s. What’s most shocking is that Acura chose the 9 speed even after it worked so poorly in FCA products.

      • 0 avatar
        APaGttH

        Acura has been on a path of self destruction for close to a decade now. They are like that hot girlfriend you hung out with who do some blow, go a little crazy an give you the best sex of you life. Just enough blow to be fun, and super hot because not eating that much – but then it got all out of control. She is asking to borrow money, temper is hair trigger, instead of great all night sex she is passed out on the floor…

      • 0 avatar
        npaladin2000

        I think people must be drawn to the compactness of the 9 speed…that plus the wide gear ratio range must make like a lot easier when complying with EPA requirements.

        It would probably be a lot more acceptable if they had figured out a way to make the dog clutch shifts a lot less obtrusive, seems like it always hits when downshifting from OD gears.

      • 0 avatar
        Steve_S

        I have no complaints for Aisin 8 speed, it is working very well and very smoothly. Although if you floor it in 8th in manual mode it will drop to the appropriate gear regardless.

        I never had any issue with ZF’s 8 speed either as others have said longitudinal.

  • avatar
    heavy handle

    It’s a learning transmission. I wonder how it drives after a few months.

    • 0 avatar
      PrincipalDan

      And if you buy one used does it “relearn”? If I buy an upmodel with memory seats etc does it learn two different drivers depending on the memory settings?

      Cause my wife certainly drives much differently than I do.

      Oh and if it’s a “learning transmission” it is going to suck for rental customers where the car is constantly changing hands.

      • 0 avatar
        heavy handle

        Almost all transmissions learn these days. A buddy who works on GM/Allison transmissions says that those are almost undriveable after a re-flash. Mechanics have to take them out for a long drive before end-users drive them. The first few miles are very rough, but they don’t completely smooth-out for a while.

        It’s really cool tech. The transmission is learning its tolerances and adjusting timing to compensate. It will keep learning as it ages, so you won’t need to service the bands.

        The transmissions also learn your driving style, but that wouldn’t make as big a difference.

        • 0 avatar
          Zackman

          I suppose if it doesn’t or refuses to learn, do you send it to PrincipalDan’s office?

          Yeah, I know, that was just too easy…

          • 0 avatar
            gtemnykh

            I can’t believe there isn’t a half-decent baseline map loaded for how the transmission should shift, from which it then deviates slightly as it learns. In the same way that most cars can run with the MAF disconnected, off of the ‘default’ map.

          • 0 avatar
            heavy handle

            gtemnykh,

            These are truck transmissions I’m talking about, so they don’t need to make them shift great off the lot. I’m sure consumer transmissions aren’t as rough.

            The learning program allows them to build the transmissions to looser tolerances, or rather they no longer need to adjust them once assembled.

            That’s a huge labor saving. Modern automatics are hugely complex, it’s a lot
            cheaper to have their CPU fine tune when one valve closes and another opens, rather than do it mechanically.

            The other upside is that the transmission will compensate for wear throughout its lifetime. I’m sure we’ve all experienced old Detroit 3 speeds that were way past their service date, banging loudly each time they changed gears.

    • 0 avatar
      Fred

      That’s what the dealer told me when I looked at a Cherokee. Still he admitted it needs some work. Looks like they have.

  • avatar
    npaladin2000

    So the 9-speed automatic seems to be a relative bust. The 6 speed DDCT is a relative bust….so of these two, which is worse?

  • avatar
    Don Mynack

    CAD $62,340 = USD $47,344.09 = Hard Pass.

  • avatar
    cwa107

    And here I thought the juddering CVT in my 2013 Pathfinder was bad. When it was time to replace it, I briefly considered a Durango. Glad I didn’t jump out of the frying pan and into the fryer.

    • 0 avatar
      06V66speed

      Have fun with that Pathfinder of yours.

      Me and my lady gave up on her ’10 Maxima. We parted ways with it.

      It wasn’t the CVT, but pretty much everything else on it that gave up the ghost. And I do mean everything, from electrical issues, to the car’s structural integrity.

      The CVT was actually one of the bright spots… which, I found particularly troubling upon the realization that we were already on borrowed time with the transmission!

      That Nissan of hers made my Honda look like it was engineered with perfection. I sh*t you not.

    • 0 avatar
      heavy handle

      Doesn’t the Durango use the same ZF 8-speed as almost every other large RWD car…in the world? The same one Bentley uses. You could do worse.

  • avatar
    06V66speed

    Pfffffffft.

    And I thought the seven-speed slushbox in my ex-wife’s GLK350 4MATIC was bad.

    Ha!

    By the way, where is that Big Truck Series Review Guy to come on in here and sing songs of FCA Praise?

  • avatar
    eggsalad

    I test-drove this transmission in the RAM ProMaster City. Maybe it has a different tune in a different van, but I didn’t feel anything horrible going on with the transmission.

    Of course, if I could buy a PMC with a six-speed manual, I would have done it yesterday.

  • avatar
    Corollaman

    I spent a couple of days driving one and the transmission was never an issue, in fact I was doing 65 mph and the tach was less than 2k RPM’s. Great mileage on the highway.

    • 0 avatar
      Zackman

      A friend’s Jeep Grand Cherokee had multiple teething issues with the transmission and took some time to get them straightened out, but it seems to have been made right, now.

      My Impala’s 6 speed keeps the revs of the 3.6L at 1500 doing 65. I love this powertrain.

  • avatar
    Fred

    Can someone tell me what the Pacifica is, at least compared to Chryslers other minivan?

  • avatar
    tjh8402

    I just had a Jeep Cherokee with the 2.4 for the weekend. We put 600+ miles on it and had virtually no complaints about the 9 speed at all. It was a lot of mountain driving, and it handled the climbs and descents well. The only jerkiness that one of my traveling companions noted was going in between drive and reverse. Underway, it shifted smoothly, largely imperceptibly, and intelligently. It was a 2016 with 11k miles.

  • avatar
    Chan

    My friend has a 2014 Cherokee and has all of the software updates. He said it has improved enough to break out of the “deal breaker” box.

  • avatar
    SCE to AUX

    Hmm. You declare the 9-spd ZF is finally sorted out – sort of – then describe wake-the-dead jolts and bangs.

    It’s NOT sorted out.

    FCA needs a crash program to rid themselves of this deal-killer, which it is for me.

    Also, this transmission is going to ruin resale value, which has never been great on FCA products anyway. I would NEVER own this transmission out of warranty.

  • avatar
    nails1

    I own and have been driving a 2017 Pacifica for over two months. This includes a 3500 mile road trip towing a trailer near max CVWR some of which was in the rocky mountains. I have experienced none of the harsh shifts this reviewer experienced. I have been extremely happy with the trans especially since it was a bit of a leap of faith to buy in light of the past issues with the ZF 9 speed. It is smooth and unobtrusive with my driving style and delivers outstanding highway mpgs (27-29). There have been a small number of complaints posted in Pacifica owner forums related to the transmission but none have been for the issues described in this article. It would be interesting to know more about how the van was being driven when the harsh shift happened. Was it being flogged to test the performance limits? Was it a maneuver likely to be experienced during an emergency or during typical driving? This van is a great vehicle on its merits so drive one yourself. You may find the 9 speed transaxle performs much better than expected.

  • avatar

    Manufacturers are increasingly compensating for smaller engines with less power with multi speed transmissions. Developing an algorithm for a 9 speed automatic coupled to a variety of engines most be a formidable task.

    All these multi speed transmissions perform well flat out (must be easier to set up an algorithm) and are all confused up to a point at various part throttle settings.

    Its the new reality of smaller displacements, turbos, and multi speed transmissions. Especially in a ZF 9 speed where 6-7-8-9 are overdrive gears and would require downshifting more than 1 gear to achieve a reasonable rate of acceleration. Ninth gear is 0.48 to 1 that is a steep OD ratio.

    • 0 avatar
      BuzzDog

      I think you hit the nail squarely upon its head, and I think it’s wonderful that manufacturers are starting to achieve a balance of performance and economy with smaller engines and a multitude of transmission gears.

      And I’ll also go on the record to state that until such powertrain combinations have been around for quite some time, I’d rather let someone else go first and do the beta testing for me.

  • avatar
    jpolicke

    My daughter’s ’14 2.4 Cherokee originally had the sluggish nature that it had acquired a reputation for. After a reflash at the dealer it downshifts much more responsively and also finds ninth at reasonable highway speeds. Unless you’re driving it looking for nits, it’s perfectly acceptable to an average driver.

  • avatar
    onyxtape

    We have the 2016 Acura MDX, which also uses this ZF 9-speed (albeit not manufactured by FCA). There was a couple months after they started making them where all this rough shifting got customers really upset, but Acura flashed new software on it and people are now mostly happy with it.

    We got our MDX after the software update had been released so we’ve never had an issue. The transmission is pretty smooth for around-town driving, though you definitely feel the frequent shifting when gunning it on an onramp.

    A guy down the street has the exact same car and he uses it for commercial delivery for his fly-by-night business, which involves shifting in and out of reverse probably over 50 times a day backing in and out of driveways. The transmission is still doing well after over a year, though I definitely will expect far less than 250k+ longevity out of this 9-speed.

    • 0 avatar
      VoGo

      Of all the cars on the planet, why a $50K MDX for a fly-by-night business that is so hard on vehicles? Are there no 10 year old
      $2K Mitsubishis in your area?

      • 0 avatar
        onyxtape

        They do have a Nissan Quest and a Econo van in their fleet as well. Both have over 250k miles. The MDX replaced a Odyssey north of 300k.

        I think the MDX was meant to also be a nice car for personal use.

  • avatar
    punkybrewstershubby aka Troy D.

    I recently had my 2011 Crown Victorias’ transmission rebuilt under Ford power train ESP warranty and since the rebuild almost 5 months ago and 1050 miles later it still has an after rebuild only slightly harsh 1-2 upshift. All other up and downshifts are butter smooth. Beginning to think that it might be the learning curve of this transmission as well. Rebuild was at 74500 miles…

  • avatar
    TrailerTrash

    So, me not being a trans expert, I have question that might sound alarmingly silly to the B&B.
    I understand Ford has come a long way and the 10 speed now being introduced in the F150 is extraordinary, especially hauling uphill.
    And everyone seems in love with the 8 speeds used by many.
    So…is the odd/even number of gears in an automatic an issue? Is the odd 9 speed having issues because of a/the sudden demand drop from 8 or 9 gears, perhaps when in a passing situation or hill climb, to 6th an issue here?

    • 0 avatar
      JimZ

      no. the issue is that the ZF 9 speed transaxle has a couple of gearsets which need to be coupled with dog clutches (like shifting a manual transmission.) moving a dog clutch necessitates a torque interruption, and it’s taken everyone (FCA, Honda, LR) a long time to figure out how to calibrate the transaxle to shift smoothly in most all situations.

  • avatar
    danio3834

    11,000 miles on mine and it’s been perfect. Completely different behaving animal than the transmission that launched in the Cherokee. A lot has been done to them since then, so not surprising.

    So when do we get an actual review of the vehicle since two of you have now driven it?

  • avatar
    Ashy Larry

    Honda uses the ZF 9 speed in top trim levels of the Pilot. We own one and even under Honda programming the thing is a strange transmission. No issues on shifts under acceleration, but when you try to downshift heading down long steep grades to use engine braking, the thing hesitates, feels like it disconnects into neutral for a second or two (making the car actually go faster down the hill) before grudgingly moving into the lower gear. There are some odd shifts here and there as well, and some users are reporting transmission failures stemming from a leak in a heat exchanger used on the transmission to balance transmission fluid heat using engine coolant.

    This transmission seems a bit half baked, especially in comparison to the excellent 8-speed used widely by Benz, BMW, VW and FCA.


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