By on June 25, 2015

 

tint

(photo courtesy: islandsjake @ www.focusst.org)

Mark writes:

Sajeev,

I just ordered a new Focus ST, pretty much the only way to get the zero-option set up I wanted. Can’t wait for it to arrive. The car’s not here yet, but the questions are. This time, a wheel & tire question for your consideration.

While we don’t get a massive amount of snow here in Southern Illinois, we do get some. I’ve learned the hard way that relatively wide, low profile summer tires and all-seasons are bad news in the winter. I’m ready to go the winter tire route, so I wanted to get your thoughts on wheel choices for winter tires in a minus-1 size.

The cheapskate in me thinks steelies look good in a retro/purposeful way (and better than most cheesy aftermarket alloys) and they are a whole bunch cheaper than aftermarket alloys. But then I saw how steelies are on the order of 10 lbs per wheel heavier. Do you think the extra weight would make much difference in ride and handling? I’m not exactly hypersensitive, but I can tell when a set of tires are crap or when a car’s suspension tuning is all out of whack.

What’s your take, or Sanjeev’s thinking, for that matter: Is unsprung weight much of a factor in a street-driven car’s ride and handling?

Sajeev answers:

Both Sajeev and Sanjeev are disappointed with you!

A REAL cheapskate embraces Ford’s recent history via 16″ alloy Thunder/Cougar/Conti/Mark VIII/Fusion/Windstar/Sable or Taurus wheels of the same bolt pattern. I betcha the FWD Ford’s offset is good enough to just bolt right on, too.

2N1DKn8

Bull Breeding Stock (photo courtesy: Brake_L8 @ www.focusst.org)

Oh yeah, that’s just perfect. I’m sleeping like a stone tonight, knowing that the wholesome Taurus Oedipus Wrecking goodness – that really spun my crank in TTAC’s early days – fits on Ford’s latest Hot Hatch.

But if you wanna sell yourself short, likely spending more for a set of newer steelies, the Internet is cool with that. And what of the steelies’ extra unsprung weight?

Take it from the guy that added a ton (from the stock 15×7 “turbine” to aftermarket faux-Cobra 17×8.5″) to losing 40-50lbs (15×7″ steelies to forged Alcoa 15×7“), you get used to the difference.  It’s subtle, much like comparing the same dish made in different restaurants. The lightweight Fox instantly felt big body AMG Benz-esque over expansion joints and sweepers with slower, “smoother” inertia transfer from a standstill. The Ranger did the opposite: sluggish with unresponsive steering to…uh, somewhat less sluggish and kinda jittery steering feedback sometimes? 

This conversation parallels the whole dancing about architecture thing: irrelevant regarding winter tires in nasty weather.

If you are driving hard enough feel a significant “this restaurant added mangoes to my hamburger!” difference, you’re probably defeating the purpose of driving conservatively in bad weather. Or you are on a racetrack, not enjoying coffee on your morning commute.

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Send your queries to [email protected]com. Spare no details and ask for a speedy resolution if you’re in a hurry…but be realistic, and use your make/model specific forums instead of TTAC for more timely advice.

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65 Comments on “Piston Slap: Focusing on Steelies, Unsprung Weight?...”


  • avatar
    W.Minter

    I’d spend the extra 200-250 $ for aftermarket alloys. 17 in. You WILL hate the look of the steelies after just a few days.

    Sparco Assetto Gara. White. 18.8 lbs vs. 28 lbs (steel). Quite affordable at Tire Rack.

    Lower weight improves: handling, fuel economy, braking …

    • 0 avatar
      RideHeight

      Or you could spend part of that extra on some nice dog dishes or baby moons for the steelies and find you’ve got no desire to ever mount assclown spokey alloys again :-D

    • 0 avatar
      sproc

      Agree, but one word of warning. Some aftermarket alloys may require different lug nuts. Of course thread size doesn’t change, but the nut seat type might. Tire Rack will gladly provide the nuts (I think they were even included last time I bought a mounted set of snows), but keep in mind the socket size might be different for those new nuts. Naturally, this bit me in the a$$ after I installed said snows, completely forgot to put an additional lug wrench in the trunk, and had a major blowout a few months later.

    • 0 avatar
      Sigivald

      “You WILL hate the look of the steelies after just a few days. ”

      Well, I don’t.

      Note the OP said “The cheapskate in me thinks steelies look good in a retro/purposeful way (and better than most cheesy aftermarket alloys)”, and his *only* negative was the weight.

      I’m pretty sure he won’t either. He ain’t you.

      • 0 avatar
        JimC2

        @Sigivald- I prefer form over function and I too like the look of most steelies. At least the ones with a tasteful finish and/or a minimalist, functional hubcap… and I think that most new car option packages nowadays don’t have enough tire sidewall for normal roads (I should point out that I mean USA market, since my fellow TTAC B&B cover many markets around the globe).

        JMHO, YMMV

    • 0 avatar
      pragmatic

      For years my XR4Ti went with stock basket weave alloys in the summer and used Mustang steel wheels in the winter. Black car, black wheels baby moons no trim ring. Never tired of the look.

  • avatar
    PRNDLOL

    Have a look on Craigslist from time to time. You’re pretty much guaranteed to find the perfect used alloy rim and snow tire combo for about a third of a new steel wheel tire package by the time the snow flies.

    • 0 avatar
      benders

      Not around Southern Illinois. No one (except this guy apparently) runs winter tires here. In fact, I sold mine (through a buddy much farther north) after a winter here.

      • 0 avatar
        Truckducken

        This. He’s probably going to see five or six days a year with snow on the road. Unless he’s an obstetrician or delivering pizzas, why bother?

        • 0 avatar
          cornellier

          The point of winter tires is not snow. It’s temperature. Winters are optimized temperatures below 8 degrees C. Summer tires become harder at those temps and lose grip.

          • 0 avatar
            RideHeight

            So the big, chunky tread pattern, extra wide and deep grooves and aggressive shoulders on my Blizzaks are only there because they look cool?

            Do you actually drive in a snow state?

    • 0 avatar
      VolandoBajo

      Only if you buy the steelies from the manufacturer. I had one steelie rust around the bead, and wanted a full size spare, so I got a pair of steelies for my Panther for about $150 for both from Rock Auto.

      The cheapest decent looking alloys I have ever seen on craigslist, etc. are about $600 for four.

      • 0 avatar
        Scoutdude

        Then you aren’t looking very well or your area is way out of line compared with mine. I pick up sets of Mustang wheels for my Panther for as little as $100 for the Bullitt wheels I’m going to use for my winter tires.

        Those Rock Auto steelies are going to rust much quicker than the factory wheels.

        • 0 avatar
          VolandoBajo

          I looked thoroughly on southjersey craigslist, but the best I could do was several hundred for a set of anything decent, and no steelies. I couldn’t afford to wait til a good deal came along, so seventy five each delivered seemed OK.

          I also wash my car thoroughly during the winter every time the weather clears a bit and the salt spreaders are off the road. That, and try not to have to drive too much in the slush.

          That said, if you know where I can get a set of the diamond spoke 15 inch wheels cheap, I’d love to have a set of those for summer tires, and use the steelies for the winter ones.

          There were two versions of those, one pre my 97 Mercury, which I think are the better looking ones, and ones that came out later, which I think look a bit cheesier. Changed the design very slightly, but noticeably.

  • avatar
    smallblock

    Wait!
    I guarantee those Focus ST’s pictured are 2013’s.
    They switched to a larger front brake in 2013.5.
    Not sure? Check your spare. If it’s a 17″ steelie, there you go.
    17″ steelies are available from Tire Rack, but they’re not much cheaper than alloys.
    Source – personal experience, I bought a 2014 Focus ST ST1 in November and had to wait a week for my winter tires/wheels to show up. I couldn’t even make it up my driveway with a light dusting of snow on the F1’s.

    • 0 avatar
      smallblock

      Looks like the 17″ steelies are on wicked sale right now.
      At the time, I went with 17×7.5 Sport Edition CS3’s they were the lightest of the cheaper alloys, and Goodyear Ultra Grip Ice WRT. If I had to do it over again, I’d pick a wheel that doesn’t pack up with snow / is easier to clean. I was less than impressed with the Goodyears. In comparison to the Winterforces I had on my Forester XT, they were squirmy on dry roads, and weak in deep snow. Seemed OK in slush / wet.

    • 0 avatar
      Loki

      Was just coming here to mention this. It is a very subtle, but important, change. If someone orders a Focus ST today they cannot fit 16″ wheels.

  • avatar

    Disagree. If your roads are as hostile as mine here in the NYC area, the ability of steel wheels to take a hit will over weigh the lightness or other advantages of alloys.

    You aren’t racing…you are winter driving….

    Go with the smallest wheel and biggest sidewalls that will fit over the brakes, with Dunlop or Michelin snow tires…..leave the 40 series rim protectors for the summer.

    • 0 avatar
      gtemnykh

      Yep, steel wheels on your daily driver are downright liberating in a sense. No worries about curb rash or potholes, no worries at the tire shop when you see the high school drop out through the glass manhandling your rims.

      I wish base model cars like my Civic still came with silver painted steel wheels with chrome center caps like they used to. You can still get a CRV like this, but not a Fit or Civic unfortunately.

      • 0 avatar
        JohnTaurus_3.0_AX4N

        ^^^^^^^^^^THATS WHAT I CAME TO SAY! (Second paragraph.) You know, you and I manage to agree on somethings but are polar opposites on others. :)

        I dont mind steelies if theyre painted silver. Not red, not body color, not black, just silver.

        I dont like black ones and I hate aftermarket (as well as most stock, to a lesser degree) wheel covers. Especially those that try to mimic alloy and/or chrome wheels. You might as well blow a whistle everytime you accelerate, pretending its a turbo that came with your plastichrome fake wheels (one of which is almost always missing). Belongs right up there with fake hood scoops, crooked fake fender vents, and a wing that doubles as an ironing board on a Korean POS with 92 hp and an automatic. Id rather walk than to be seen in such a rolling travesty.

        I put 16″ alloys from a mid-level 2006 Taurus on my 95. Ive gotten several complements on it, including one from a black guy driving a mid-2000s Taurus with 22s on it. They are similar to what is on that orange/yellow ST above, but slightly different (those are off a 2000-2003, mine are the revised version used from 2004-07).

        I plan to do a lot of traveling to the NorthWest and was contemplating having a set of traction tires mounted on some silver-painted steelies for the passes in Colorado, Washington, etc.

        If the OP wants a set of steelies, there are millions of 2000+ Taurus/Sables with them, Im sure they can be had much cheaper than new from tire rack, etc. Thats IF his model doesnt require 17″ rims as others have mentioned.

      • 0 avatar
        pbr

        Another plus for steelies: less likely to get stolen than alloys due to lower potential resale value.

        +1 to all who recommend OEM takeoff alloys unless you already have an aftermarket wheel picked out.

        • 0 avatar
          redmondjp

          And the OEM alloys will be hub-centric (will center themselves on the wheel hubs as opposed to using the studs to maybe almost center the wheel as is the case on most aftermarket wheels).

          If you live in the salt belt, it’s always a good idea to add a little anti-sieze on the hub as well.

  • avatar
    319583076

    I ran Blizzaks on -1 steelies on my MS3 for two winters and would highly recommend them (the Blizzaks and the steelies). I didn’t really care how it looked, I was interested in being able to maintain control in the worst of winter driving conditions, which was no problem. That said, on dry pavement, the car was still a blast to drive.

  • avatar
    TurboMark

    I have a 2014 Focus ST, after 2013 16″ wheels will not fit as they changed the brake setup to a slightly larger diameter. I got a set of 4 17″ steelies+conti snow tires for approx $650 off of tirerack. I live in Ohio and commute approx 80 miles per day, these were absolutely awesome for the 4-5 or so winter months. I don’t mind the look of the steelies and are then able to get away with a smaller diameter winter tire, if we were to put winters on the oem wheels it would be significantly more expensive.

    As far as driving differences… you’re going to feel a much larger difference in going from a summer 18″ tire to a winter 17″ tire than you will in going from the OEM wheel to a steel wheel. I experienced a significant decrease in steering feel, but did experience improved ride comfort. In the two things that you’ll be changing (tires and wheels) the tire is going to have a much larger impact on your driving experience.

    • 0 avatar

      “I have a 2014 Focus ST, after 2013 16″ wheels will not fit as they changed the brake setup to a slightly larger diameter.”

      D’oh! Maybe take off Fusion/500/Taurus wheels is the best move then. IIRC Ford has made plenty of those in 17″ diameter for the last 5+ years to make a cheap and easy craigslist find.

      • 0 avatar
        smallblock

        I believe fairly recent Volvo’s use that 5×108 pattern too. Some Focus ST folks are using larger Volvo brake rotors with Mazda 5 caliper brackets as a cheap rear brake upgrade.

      • 0 avatar
        bball40dtw

        You’d have to get wheels from a 2013+ Fusion or 2012+ Escape to match the 5 x 108 bolt pattern of the Focus. Earlier Fusions and the D-platform vehicles are 5 x 114.3.

        I might have some OEM 17″ C-Max wheels…

        • 0 avatar
          JohnTaurus_3.0_AX4N

          ^This. I replied before I read yours with the same info. I dont see it now, but yeah, D’s and Mazda-based Fusions do not share the Focus/86-07 Taurus/etc lug pattern.

    • 0 avatar
      EMedPA

      My ’13 Escape came with 19″ wheels, and I bought a set of 17″ steelies with Michelin xIce 3’s for the winter. Makes an incredible difference.

  • avatar
    johnny ro

    New steelies are a good thing. Chrome acorn lug nuts are cheap.

    Suggest coat them with some variety of cosmoline. I use the Amsoil version. It will look wet then muddy then only remain in the crevices which will not rust. Rusty steelies are not a good thing.

    Agree that for winter driving steelies are fine, the weight does not matter much then.

    The rubber matters far more at all times.

    Then again cheap aluminuns are not much more than steelies.

    • 0 avatar
      bball40dtw

      “Then again cheap aluminuns are not much more than steelies.”

      I think that’s an important factor. He should be able to find a used set of clean alloys for $200 or so. I know that’s what I did for my wife’s Lincoln. I found a $250 set of MKZ wheels off of Craigslist pretty easily.

      • 0 avatar
        EMedPA

        There are inexpensive alloy wheels out there. I had a set for winter tires when I owned my Focus. Although I never had a problem with them, I’d watch for corrosion and stress cracks in the wheels.

        • 0 avatar
          bball40dtw

          This is true. However, if you look on the Craigslists and such, I’m sure there will be a set of OEM Ford 17″ 5 x 108 bolt pattern wheels to fit his Focus.

  • avatar
    bball40dtw

    The stock tires on the ST are going to be downright dangerous in the winter. It’s good you are thinking about winter tires.

    Get 17s – which means probably wheels not steelies. I think there is, at most, a $20 difference per wheel for alloy vs steel on 17s.

    Get the winter tires that are the best deal at the time (from a good brand). My C-Max is on Firestone WinterForce tires in the winter and my wife’s MkT is on the Blizzaks that came out last year.

    If you choose not to get winter tires, you might be okay in So Illinois with rolling on Conti ExtremeContact DWSs.

  • avatar
    energetik9

    I don’t know exactly where you live in Illinois or how rural you are. I live on the north side of Chicago. I also live feet from the shoreline of Lake Michigan (read: lake effect snow).

    I survived the entire witner with all-seasons on my SUV and on my wife’s car. Never bothered putting anything on my 911 besides the summer performance tires (it’s AWD). If you want peace of mind, then great, but all this work over skinny rims isn’t needed.

    • 0 avatar
      JREwing

      Emphasis on “survived”. I too “survived” on no-seasons when the budget for winter tires wasn’t there. However, winter tires are a tremendous safety improvement in bad conditions, particularly in a high-stress driving environment (Chicago certainly counts). If you care enough about driving to own a Focus ST, you care enough to have winter tires.

      • 0 avatar
        energetik9

        OK, survived wasn’t the best choice. It was, however, a non issue.

        I don’t have issue with winter tires. Just don’t see the need to get skinny rims.

        • 0 avatar
          redmondjp

          Skinny rims/tires decrease the tire contact patch size to the ground, which increases the force per square inch between the tire and the ground.

          This can make a huge difference on RWD vehicles that don’t have a lot of weight in the back (I’m looking at you, Ford Mustang from any year, ever).

          • 0 avatar
            heavy handle

            Samll correction:

            Contact patch size is determined by PSI, nothing else. Skinny tires have a narrower/longer contact patch, wide tires have a wider/shorter contact patch, but both have the same contact area with the same PSI and corner weight.

            If you think about it, as long as the “P” (pounds) stays constant, the “SI” (square inches) has to as well.

            Skinny tires heat-up faster, and they are less likely to hydroplane (snow-plane?) because a lower proportion of their contact patch is at the leading edge where the water/snow is being pushed aside.

          • 0 avatar
            JimC2

            “Skinny rims/tires decrease the tire contact patch size to the ground, which increases the force per square inch between the tire and the ground.”

            Um, no, they don’t change the size of the contact patch (changing the tire pressure and/or the car’s weight changes that). They don’t change the force per square inch either (changing the tire pressure does that).

            Skinny tires change the SHAPE of the contact patch- they make it narrower and longer (or vice-versa, wide tires make it wider and shorter). Wide tires and snow are not a good combination for starting and stopping. Narrow tires and dry pavement are not a good combination for sporty handling.

            Wide tires on a powerful car with not a lot of weight on the drive wheels are not a good combination for starting on snowy roads- many model years of Fox-body Ford Mustangs are a well known example of this, as you pointed out!

  • avatar
    thx_zetec

    Steel is an alloy. An alloy of iron carbon etc. Steel wheels are stronger and look much better.

    • 0 avatar
      Sigivald

      True, but in this context “alloys” is a *term of art* referring to aluminum (or sometimes magnesium) alloys.

      (I agree that steelies look good, and are sturdy. It’s only recently that I’ve ever *had* non-steelies on a car, simply because both my truck and my Volvo came with them and there’s no point in replacing them.)

  • avatar
    another_VW_fanboy

    I have a 2014 Jetta SE with 16 inch steelies. I chose steelies because i actually like the look. If you keep them clean it has a honest, simple look. I live in the northeast and find steelies much more practical for everyday driving. They bend instad of crack are much cheaper and IMHO are a better riding option for a DD. What I found most remarkable is all the hate i got for taking off the hubcaps. I cant believe people actually LIKE the look of hubcaps! Like its fooling anyone into believing they are expensive alloys. I dont hate low profile alloy wheels and they have their place place and advantages of course. AS for a DD steelies all the way for me. There is a small group of like minded drivers that agree because i see the occasional new car without hubcaps and claen steelies. Steelie pride!

  • avatar
    turf3

    It’s just as likely that aluminum wheels will be the same weight or heavier than steel wheels. Cast aluminum wheels have to be made very thick due to the inherent weakness of the material and tendencies toward breakage on impact and porosity leakage.

    Anyway, it’s an econo-hatch, and you are going to be driving it in snow on city streets, not on a skidpad. Get sensible wheels (steel!). They won’t break if you hit a pothole or curb. If you are so other-directed that you really care what your winter tires look like , spray paint the wheels the same color as your car with some cheapo touch-up paint from the auto parts store.

    My wife ran into a curb on snow tires this winter. Bent the rim. I noticed a vibration just before the day I took the snows off and put the summer tires back on. So, when I took the snows off, I laid the one with the bend down, whacked it with a 2 pound ball peen hammer till it went back to the original contour, put the balance weight back on, good to go! Try that with your boy racer alum. wheels.!

  • avatar
    EAF

    The only time steelies look absolutely terrible is when they are installed on a car with a large fender gap. On the Focus, with snow tires mounted, they’ll look cool!

    For a while steelies were highly sought after, you could buy them painted the color of your choice, the offset of your choice, and even sport a deep dish.

  • avatar
    S2k Chris

    Steelies are terrible and a pox on humanity, especially now that dubbers and other automotive hipsters think they’re a sh*tty fashion accessory.

    Either find some take off OEM wheels (guaranteed to be on “ST Driver.com” or whatever the user forum for the FST is) from an FST or other Ford, or pony up the $80-100/wheel for some basic Sport Editions from TireRack.

    • 0 avatar
      Sigivald

      I have never once seen steel wheels on a donk or other over-wheeled fashion car.

      Is this a regional thing that hasn’t made it to the Northwest yet, or what?

      • 0 avatar
        JimC2

        “Is this a regional thing that hasn’t made it to the Northwest yet, or what?”

        Probably so. It’s the same market demographic that has deliberately mismatched body panel colors for a boy racer-rally car look. To each their own/whatever shifts your gears, and it doesn’t hurt me if other people choose to do that to their rides, right?

        • 0 avatar
          VolandoBajo

          I thought the mismatched body panels were the cheapest way to repanel a car that had been driven into, or had driven into something else.

          Certainly that is the case (I hope) when you see two different color front fenders), but I suspect that is often the case also when you see a hood or trunklid that doesn’t match.

  • avatar
    dal20402

    Agreed with other posters who say the difference in unsprung weight won’t matter in the context of the limits imposed by winter tires.

    I wish more steelies would be silver instead of black. Silver steelies look purposeful. Black steelies just look like someone stole either the hubcaps or the entire set of alloy wheels.

    • 0 avatar
      JohnTaurus_3.0_AX4N

      I agree 100%. I like my alloys, but I do like silver steelies, especially for winter driving and/or on a work truck/van/minivan/SUV.

      I contemplated rounding up four full size spares from 02+ Explorers and painting them silver for use on my Aerostar. I ended up with a good deal on a set of XLS alloys (same generation), so I went with those instead. I no longer have the Aerostar, but if I get another (especially if its a cargo van or E4WD), Ill probably go with 16″ Explorer steelies painted silver. May even find some chrome center caps from a Crown Vic Interceptor or the newer Taurus/Explorer-based Interceptors to put on ’em.

    • 0 avatar
      Sigivald

      Pretty sure a paint shop (or powder-coater) can make that happen for a very small fee.

      (I disagree on the aesthetic, and think black steelies look, as put elsewhere up-thread, simple and honest.

      Just wheels. Not pretending to be something fancy.)

      • 0 avatar
        krhodes1

        Addendum – in my experience there is a DRAMATIC difference in rust resistance between aftermarket steel wheels and OEM steel wheels. If you go steelies, go used OEM. The aftermarket ones will be rusted lumps in 2-3 years in salt country, in one case to the point where the bead leaked for me. Had to have them sandblasted and powdercoated. Used OEM looked better after 10+ years than aftermarket after two. This was on Volvos/Saabs.

    • 0 avatar
      krhodes1

      About my favorite wheels are the super light alloys that look just like steel wheels. Commonly seen on old Porsches and Alfas. So very cool. So I approve of the silver painted steel wheel look too!

      That said, the problem with steel wheels here in the land of salt is that after a couple seasons they look like you left them in the ocean over the summer. No thanks, never had a problem running appropriately sized alloys in the winter. I do agree that weight differences are largely irrelevant in this case.

    • 0 avatar
      VolandoBajo

      Black is the minimalist look. Black steelies = strong, and the only fashion statement is that it is not a fashion statement.

      To me, especially if it isn’t done to a very high quality, silver paint on steelies looks like putting lipstick on a pig, or trying to pretend that your steelies are chromed.

      I am not opposed to a nice set of alloys, but when I want wheelies (pothole country, for example), I want black steelies. And if I don’t think the black looks right, I put a set of wheel covers over them.

      This works well on Panthers with steelies, for example.

  • avatar

    I run 17″ steelies for winter on my ST. The assembly weighs the same as the 18″ oem setup.

    Looks fine, too.

    Don’t sweat it.

  • avatar
    bball40dtw

    Sajeev-

    While we have solved this problem, a bigger one exists. How is this Focus ST owner going to make that black triangle on the A-pillar go away?

  • avatar

    I went with 15″ steelies for the Dunlop Direzzas I put on the Saturn, and had winter tires mounted on the original 14″ rims. What differences that I notice are mostly tire related.

    They do look pretty good with chrome lug nuts.

  • avatar
    donutguy

    Here’s a pic of my Hyundai Elantra with my winter steelies on…….

    https://goo.gl/photos/NyeY8n6L6zxMuTgv7

    I took the time to paint mine body color and pinstriped them with the same pinstripes I used on the body.

  • avatar
    Greg Locock

    a) use the right nuts/studs for the wheels

    b) Damian Harty, and Richard Hurdwell and Martyn Anderson at Lotus wrote a couple of papers on the effect of large amounts of unsprung mass on ride and steering, exploding the usual paranoia.

    http://www.proteanelectric.com/en/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/protean-Services3.pdf

    http://www2.eng.cam.ac.uk/~djc13/vehicledynamics/downloads/VDC2011_Hurdwell.pdf

    Sure, light wheels are a great way of lightening a car, but unsprung mass is not particularly awful, the effects vary quite gently with mass.

  • avatar
    cimarron typeR

    My brother in Denver rocks 16in. steelies w/ blizzaks on his Ur S6, I like it personally


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