By on March 2, 2015

2013 Toyota Venza Limited, Exterior, Rear 3/4, Picture Courtesy of Alex L. Dykes

Toyota is reportedly ending production of the Venza crossover.

The Venza, which sold less than 30,000 units last year, has long struggled to find a foothold in the marketplace. While production will continue until 2017 for export markets, the end of the Venza means that further capacity will be freed up at Toyota’s Georgetown, Kentucky plant, allowing Toyota to produce more Camrys.

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109 Comments on “Toyota Axing Venza Crossover...”


  • avatar
    NoGoYo

    A victory for people who hate ugly vehicles!

  • avatar
    honda_lawn_art

    But, then they’ll only have two Crossovers.

  • avatar
    strafer

    Chevy should take that name.
    Sounds like Vega/Monza combo.

  • avatar
    28-Cars-Later

    Try a wagon next time Toyota. If this thing could break 20K units annually you’re telling me a true Camry wagon would not?

    • 0 avatar

      Yes, I am telling you it would not.

      • 0 avatar
        28-Cars-Later

        Disagree. It may not sell enough volume to be worthwhile, but if this turd can move 20K units annually and extended Camry could match it.

        • 0 avatar

          People don’t buy wagons. They just don’t. The only people who bought this were older folks who liked the raised ride combined with Toyota reliability. If it had been a true wagon version of the Camry, sales would have been a lot lower.

          And just because you thought it was a turd, doesn’t mean everybody did. Lots of potential buyers thought it looked good.

          • 0 avatar
            28-Cars-Later

            Not enough for Toyota apparently.

          • 0 avatar
            turboencabulator

            I’m with 28 Cars here. A Camry Wagon has potential. As in a proper wagon, not a sports/activity/lifestyle/marketing slang wagon. Unlike the Venza, the return of the Camry Wagon would mean the return of a car with a clear identity.

            This is signed by a former Camry Wagon owner.

          • 0 avatar
            bunkie

            I’m one of those people who bought a wagon. It’s a standout in that most people who mention it to me never even knew it existed.

            I’m not sure I’d buy another one. The primary reason is that styling dictates a sloped rear window and short roofline. That severely limits interior space. It’s kind of amazing how quickly the cargo area fills up. The height of the opening is also rather short, being about 19 inches. The average CUV has a an opening about seven or eight inches higher which makes a lot of difference.

            Frankly, a sedan with decent fold-down seats has almost as much usable cargo room without the interior noise or exposed nature. A sedan won’t suffer from the negative pressure zone that collects dirt like a magnet either.

            It’s time to accept the fact that the CUV has won the war. The combination of usable cargo area, higher seating position and higher perceived value means that the wagon is, effectively, extinct. Furthermore, the CUV is close to winning the battle with the conventional sedan as well. The Escape is about to outsell the Fusion, the CR-V is Honda’s biggest seller, and so on.

            The Venza is seen more as a wagon than a CUV. That’s why it doesn’t sell.

          • 0 avatar
            gtemnykh

            I know it’s a pointless thing to say, but my gf would have LOVED a wagon version of her 2012 Camry to haul dogs around. Keep the powertrain the same. Yes a stick would be cool but as I recall the last gen Camrys that had a very rare stick option actually had pretty poor shifters and terrible throttle hang. The 2.5/6A pairing is just such a smooth and torquey operator that I wouldn’t even bother with a stick shift.

          • 0 avatar

            Who sells wagons for people to buy? If few mfgs offer wagons, “people don’t buy wagons” becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

            FWIW, my cousin owns a Camry wagon, I’m guessing mid to late ’90s vintage.

        • 0 avatar
          psarhjinian

          The extended Camry is either the Avalon, Sienna, or the Highlander.

    • 0 avatar
      Richard Chen

      The two generations of Camry wagons had the most unfortunate pair of hindquarters. I doubt the market will reward them a third time.

      FWIW: Toyota’s wagon is the Prius v which hit 40K during its first year and 30K last year, which IIRC is still more than the VW Sportwagen.

    • 0 avatar
      bd2

      Even in these days where CUVs are basically lifted wagons and hatches, the Venza was barely that and basically a Camry wagon with different sheetmetal.

      And the reason why it sold as well as it did was b/c Toyota called it a crossover and not a wagon (just as how Subaru has called the Forester a crossover despite really being a wagon).

    • 0 avatar
      sportyaccordy

      Maybe if you dream hard enough you will get that Camry wagon, only to realize it sucks just as much as a regular Camry. Theres a good reason they stopped selling them nearly 20 years ago. Wagons don’t make bad cars good.

    • 0 avatar
      CoreyDL

      This car is exactly what my parents need. They will not look at it because “it is too much of a wagon.”

      They will not look at the Flex, nor the Taurus X because “Too wagony.”

      They are stuck like glue on the g-d Highlander as the holy grail of all vehicles, because the Lexus RX is “too common” yet somehow the Highlander isn’t. And the Highlander costs more used, for less nice interior and equipment as well.

      I can’t deal with them any more.

      • 0 avatar
        28-Cars-Later

        Ignorance in action since all of the fake trucks are exactly the same thing… Oh but they look like trucks so winning!

        I imagine plastic people melt in the microwave like GI Joe does.

  • avatar
    Fred

    Had plenty of room inside but the interior was a mess of ill-fitting plastic. I bet it would be a rattle trap after a few years.

  • avatar
    Speed3

    Considering how big the RAV4 has grown, they should add a subcompact crossover like everybody else. And hey, they already sell one — the Rush (also Daihatsu Terios) — so why not configure the next gen version for the NA market.

    • 0 avatar

      Sadly, Rush is a proper SUV, albeit small. It’s basically a Toyota/Daihatsu competitor of Suzuki Jimny. It’s a terrific car, but non-starter in USDM. That said, Toyota has a large number of small platforms and they could easily piece something together if they only wanted. I expect that success of Renegade, HR-V, and Trax will make Toyota act sooner or later.

  • avatar

    This seems strange to me, but then I think they were much more popular in Canada. I would have thought that I heavy re-design to make it more in-line with successful 5-passenger CUVs (Murano, cheap RX, Equinox, etc.) would have been better.

  • avatar
    sportyaccordy

    This is kind of a big deal. What’s the last car Toyota discontinued? MR-S/Celica. Last SUV? FJ-09? OK, what’s the last 4 door car Toyota discontinued? Cressida?

    I don’t see why this thing bombed. Maybe it was just squeezed. PEople who want a Toyota SUV get a RAV-4/Highlander. Empty nesters get Avalons. People who want a stylish/luxury Toyota SUV get Lexuses. This was kind of in the same no man’s land as the Maxima

    • 0 avatar
      28-Cars-Later

      Echo ran from MY00-05 in the US and was discontinued (although it ran to CY2012 in China).

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Platz

      • 0 avatar
        cpthaddock

        Dammit – the Toyota that dare not be named … E**o … now I have to gouge my eyes out.

      • 0 avatar
        mcs

        It really wasn’t discontinued in the US. The Echo had another name in some markets: Yaris. So, the Echo was just a 1st generation Yaris with a different name. Google “2002 Yaris”.

        http://www.todoautos.com.pe/f50/vendo-toyota-yaris-2002-impecable-60-000km-5214.html

    • 0 avatar
      APaGttH

      Toyota has killed in the 21st century IIRC

      Echo
      Paseo
      Solara (coupe and convertible)
      FJ
      Celica
      Venza (if story is accurate)
      Matrix

      It’s not unprecedented for Toyota to put a nameplate out to pasture.

      • 0 avatar
        sportyaccordy

        Echo lives on… Paseo died in the 90s I think. Matrix is a good call but that will come back as a Scion. A few coupes did legit die but the whole concept of the cheap coupe doesn’t resonate with Americans anymore. All those deaths kind of make sense. I really thought Toyota had something with this, oh well.

    • 0 avatar
      Russycle

      The Venza wasn’t truckish enough, or if you will it’s too wagony. I don’t have a problem with a slightly jacked up wagon, but it doesn’t sell in Peoria. See also Chrysler Pacifica

    • 0 avatar
      dtremit

      Larger two-row crossovers are fundamentally a premium segment, and the Venza had a low-rent feel to it. It wasn’t ever nicer than a Camry; at this point, it’s not *as* nice.

    • 0 avatar
      billyjoejimbob

      Not sure the Cressida got discontinued in the traditional sense of the word. Early on in development of the next generation Cressida, they decided to take it more upscale and create a whole new luxury division to compete with Mercedes and the like, and it ended up being the LS400.

      • 0 avatar
        CoreyDL

        “Early on in development of the next generation Cressida, they decided to take it more upscale and create a whole new luxury division to compete with Mercedes and the like, and it ended up being the LS400.”

        This is not correct. The Lexus planning was in place long before the final Cressida came about.

    • 0 avatar
      slance66

      Easy answer from my perspective. It costs almost as much as a Lexus RX350 while being not nearly as nice. Used it costs the same as a Lexus RX350 more or less. If you want a comfortable, non third row Toyota, you get an RX350, not a Venza.

      • 0 avatar
        CoreyDL

        @slance

        Sorry, it doesn’t cost almost as much. The RX starts at $38,500, the Venza is $29,400 for an LE with AWD. The MOST expensive Venza, a V6 Limited AWD is $39,500 – where the RX starts.

    • 0 avatar
      87 Morgan

      As noted, Toyota has sent nameplate to pasture. My question, I what other name in their are sneak was retired as quickly? Seems like this was a quick run which sort of proves they were not comitted from day one.

      I don’t find the Venza all that atrocious to look at. I was, however, appealed when I saw the MSRP. IIRC they were asking Lexus dough for these and providing Corolla interiors. Almost reminiscent of something GM or Chrysler from the old days, send the engineers over to the parts depot, let them pick out some stuff and see what they can build with it.

  • avatar
    AnotherMillenial

    Edit: SportyAccordy’s post about the Venza being cannibalized.

    While not a true “wagon”, the Venza and Crosstour were as close as we were going to get in age of the unrelenting crossover wave. I’ve always referred to them as the “Camry/Accord Wagon” and liked the design of the Venza, especially compared to the Honda and boring options like the Legacy. It seemed very current and an upgrade for Camry XLE buyers who wanted more style and more features/spaces.

    It’s too bad it never really took off. Didn’t know so many found it ugly. The sub-Rav4 is a foregone conclusion and this doesn’t really compete in that space. It would’ve been nice to see it mature as the Murano and Edge have, but oh well.

  • avatar
    superchan7

    The Venza had a good sales run…I’m guessing the product planners simply couldn’t agree to keep it going and go with just the Highlander and RAV-4 CUVs.

  • avatar

    SRSLY? You can’t spill a bottle of Centrum Silver around Florida without hitting a Venza.

  • avatar
    cpthaddock

    Poor Venza – I actually quite wanted to like you and took you for a test drive to see if my wife might be interested. I guess you weren’t SUV enough for the US market – probably too “hatchback”, but at the same time too big for Europe and somewhat orphaned from birth.

    Something about you, Venza, faintly reminded me of the Austin Maxi. Now you have the ignominy of being outlived by the Honda Crosstour, which in turn reminds me faintly of a Vauxhall FE series Victor estate

  • avatar
    KalapanaBlack

    IIRC there was pre-launch talk of discontuation of the Avalon as a premium crossover could better represent the Toyota nameplate in that price bracket. I don`t know how close to official that was. I bet they`re glad they didn`t make THAT move.

  • avatar
    APaGttH

    Toyota Axing Camry Station Wagon

    Headline fixed

  • avatar
    smartascii

    Whatever you’re selling, it has to look like an SUV. It doesn’t have to be one in anything other than shape, but it has to have that. If, out of the corner of anyone’s eye, it might ever-so-briefly be mistaken for a wagon or hatchback, you’re just not going to sell very many. I’m very much the opposite, because raising the center of gravity of a car platform just gets you worse mileage and handling, but clearly, there aren’t very many of me out there.

    • 0 avatar
      Richard Chen

      This.

      Just in: Volvo V60 has 111 days’ supply

    • 0 avatar
      Featherston

      @ smartascii – I found myself with hand over heart and humming “America the Beautiful” as I read your comment.

      What also sucks is that the corollary to the phenomenon you describe is that sedans need not have a reasonable greenhouse. Want a back seat that can accommodate someone 5’10” or taller? We have a fine CUV to sell you!

      • 0 avatar
        28-Cars-Later

        I think its an open secret. Ruin sedans for a sedan/wagon variant which happens to cost 10-30% more.

        • 0 avatar
          highdesertcat

          I think the secret is “If they build it, they will come”. And in the case of the Venza, they came, just not in the numbers that would have made Venza as popular as the Camry sedan variant.

          I do believe that there will be a run on the remaining Venzas once the news gets widely circulated among the new car buyers.

          We saw this when Honda was going to discontinue the Ridgeline. Every one who wanted one had their hand forced and bought one. We also saw this when the Dakota production ended, and that of the Ranger and S10.

          It would not surprise me if the two old ladies I know who own a Venza will trade it for a brand new one, thus releasing their Venza to the used car market.

  • avatar
    VenomV12

    I really liked these, looked at them a few years ago when a buddy was looking for a car, I really thought they were very nice. I was always surprised they did not sell more and were not a hot seller.

    • 0 avatar
      highdesertcat

      In my area, the V6 Venza AWD went for about the same money as a Jeep Grand Cherokee V6 Laredo 4X4 that had more standard dressing, (i.e. $32K -> $38K depending on equipment).

      Even people with half a brain would recognize the JGC as the better deal. Very few Venza in my area.

      That said, the people I know who bought a Venza for their specific wants and needs, love them.

      • 0 avatar
        Truckducken

        Exactamundo, HDC! This dog was overweight and overpriced. The ‘SUV premium’ put it in territory it couldn’t handle. Maybe a wagon would have sold, but there goes said premium.

        • 0 avatar
          highdesertcat

          Truckducken, two old ladies who live together (not lesbian) who attend my church, bought one together and use it to travel all over the US.

          The reason they bought their Venza is because it is easier to get into and out of than a JGC. In fact, before they bought their Venza, they borrowed my wife’s JGC for a weekend trip. I guess one of them fell, jumping out of our JGC, and did a faceplant on the ground. That eliminated the JGC as a contender.

          They are both retired DoD Civil Service so you know they have to be rolling in the dough and didn’t mind paying that ‘premium’ for their Venza.

          • 0 avatar
            Zoom

            Thank you for clarifying that they aren’t lesbians.

          • 0 avatar
            highdesertcat

            Zoom, you’re welcome. These days you can’t be too careful. People have proven themselves time and again to assume things that were not what they appeared to be.

            Actually, these two old women are military widows whose husbands died in military retirement.

            These women also worked together in DoD Civil Service for more than 20 years at a military installation, after their husbands retired from the military and chose to lead a life of leisure and gainful unemployment, spending their days at the various Golf courses.

  • avatar
    psarhjinian

    Well, now that the RAV/4 and Highlander dropped any pretense of truckishness, I can’t really say I blame them.

  • avatar
    shadow mozes

    Good Riddance!

  • avatar
    FormerFF

    Rented one of these a few years ago, it was as bland as water soup.

  • avatar
    Alfisti

    Very surprised, they are EVERYWHERE around these parts.

  • avatar
    fiasco

    I thought Venza stood for “I want something with the same footprint as a Sienna, but with one fifth the utility.” See lots of them around in New England, but I don’t understand the desire to own something so big that is (arguably) less useful than a 2003 Legacy wagon, let alone a Sienna.

    Bet you can’t guess the two daily drivers in my household.

  • avatar
    billyjoejimbob

    Shrewd move by Toyota in protecting its investment in Fuji Heavy Industries. With recent incarnations of the Outback becoming bloated, soulless, ponderous, boring, slow and listless appliances, the Venza had become redundant. With rumors of the 6 cylinder getting cancelled and now no Venza to compete with, the Outback can continue its hot streak toward world class mediocrity.

    • 0 avatar
      Dave M.

      “With recent incarnations of the Outback becoming bloated, soulless, ponderous, boring, slow and listless appliances, the Venza had become redundant.”

      My ’13 Outback 2.5 isn’t our SAAB Aero, but it’s a pisser to drive. Not lightning, but quick and handles great. When’s the last time you drove one?

      • 0 avatar
        billyjoejimbob

        September 2012, the day I sold the 2012 2.5 I had purchased in February of that year. Found the CVT listless, the electric steering vague, and the 2.5 under powered for the heft of the Outback. Hopefully they’ll resume the XT option in the Outback if the 6 really is a dead man(engine) walking.

  • avatar
    TW5

    Toyota engineers swooned at the sight of the Mercedes R-Class. Venza was born.

    Long live the vanation wagon.

  • avatar
    Dave M.

    I like the shape of the Venza, and certainly think the refreshed model looks better. But the interior was definitely Realtor Mom approved.

  • avatar
    LectroByte

    I don’t see too many of these around, but it looks like it has too much station wagon DNA and not enough crossover. Station wagons are a dead segment, even Dodge gave up on their Magnum a while back, and that one seemed like something that should have been a contender.

  • avatar
    azulR

    My wife needs a new car and we’ve been looking seriously at a Venza. What she has now is a 2000 Taurus wagon that is finally giving up. What she wants is another wagon, but seems unlikely to find one, which is why she’s held on to the old Taurus for so long.

    My interpretation of requirements:

    Enough room in the back to put a full load from Costo without having to pack carefully.

    Enough room if the back seats are folded to be able to go to Ikea in full confidence that whatever you buy will fit in the car.

    Enough headroom for our son, 6 foot 2 inches and growing.

    Comfortable and quiet freeway ride.

    Good audio system.

    More than adequate power – the Duratec in the Taurus probably placed it in the 8 seconds 0-60 range.

    Easy storage in front for large handbag (Taurus wins big with empty floorspace instead of transmission tunnel).

    Preference for cloth over leather. Partly a vestige of living in Florida but the issues of getting into a car that has been left in the sun are still relevant for the Bay Area.

    Cost and fuel consumption should not be too extravagant.

    Usage will be puttering around suburbia plus 400 mile trips to see the couple of kids who are now in the LA area.

    That shouldn’t be a demanding set of requirements, but it seems that they are.

    What we’ve tried:

    Jetta Sportwagen. Didn’t get past trying out the seats. Trying to pick words carefully, the relatively narrow bolsters might have been designed for a more European physique.

    Honda Crosstour: Possible, but horrible visibility, ridiculous amount of suspension intrusion into the rear load area.

    Toyota Prius V: Obvious winner on logic but… A bit noisy and plasticy, unconventional instrument layout much disliked, relative lack of power too noticeable. We could excuse one or two failings, not all of them. I wonder how many Prius sales have been lost due to the instrument layout?

    Subie Outback: Obvious closest thing to a station wagon, but interior layout left her cold. Nice visibility. Perhaps adequate power with the four cylinder which was all we tried.

    Subie Forester: Great visibility. Felt naturally at home in this – but cargo area still a bit smaller than desired and not fully flat. The logical buy if the Prius was written off, but no real love for this.

    Toyota Venza: Liked the styling, liked the conventional instrumentation. Adequate but somewhat awkward stowage for handbag etc. Nice flat load space with seats folded (though still not as long as Taurus). Liked the comfortable power and easy cruising of the V6. Most confortable rear seats. Had a very out of character Jonesing for one on the lot in red. Negatives were the cost, the fuel consumption, the leather that now comes with the V6 and the ridiculous 20 inch wheels. I looked on TireRack and it’s not as if you can get decent tires in the standard size.

    What we briefly looked at but didn’t get as far as driving:

    Mazda5: Seat comfort, load area, sliding doors

    Mazda3: Too small

    Mazda7: Pricey, fuel consumption

    CRV: Non flat load area with rear seat stowed.

    RAV4: No advantage over Venza apart from price

    Highlander: The Venza is a slightly better station wagon.

    Possibles we haven’t tried, but would be secondhand only:

    CTS Wagon: rare, would try one if local but the nameplate is a negative as is the mandatory leather.

    TSX Wagon: rare, likely too small, mandatory leather (I think).

    Mercedes E class, BMW 5 series, old style Audi Allroads: Too scarey.

    So – we’re some of the few people to be buying a Venza? Not exactly. You can now only get the V6 with the mid-level trim so we’d be paying for leather seats that we don’t want for a list price of $35k, $37.5k with the upgraded audio and sunroof. That’s just the FWD, we only want a wagon and don’t want or need AWD. We don’t care if the CRV/RAV-4/Forester class of CUVs could fit more tennis balls in the load area than the old Taurus, they just don’t have the length of cargo space, and the dubious aerodynamics can’t help fuel consumption. With the advances in engine technology, a four would probably be all we’d want in a genuine station wagon, while the six seems highly desirable in the bloated Venza. We’d happily pay an extra two or three thousand over the price of an Accord/Fusion/Mazda6/Camry to get a wagon version. We would not happily pay an extra ten thousand over the price of the aforesaid sedan in order to get something which has negative value add compared to a genuine wagon.

    End result – we’re scanning for a Venza on the secondhand market. The combination of red, cloth trim and V6 is rare enough that we’ll probably have to wait a few weeks for one to come up locally. People seem to be saying that the Venza was a relative failure because it was too much like a station wagon. We’d like it more and Toyota would probably already have our money if only it was more like a station wagon.

    But I know we must be very much in a minority. If looking for secondhand CTS or TSX, the numbers sold in wagon form are single digit percentages.

    • 0 avatar
      dtremit

      Out of curiosity — why haven’t you considered direct Venza competitors like the Edge and the Murano?

    • 0 avatar
      spreadsheet monkey

      Flex?

    • 0 avatar
      S1L1SC

      Ford Flex?

      Or one of the new vans that are comming out – Ford Transit/Connect, Ram City Master / Pro Master, etc…?

    • 0 avatar
      bball40dtw

      Like others have said, you need a Flex.

    • 0 avatar
      DeeDub

      CMAX? If you can get over how it looks, the passenger version of the Transit Connect might tick all of your boxes.

    • 0 avatar
      28-Cars-Later

      Great posts which makes more value added points than most of us usually raise. I do hope someone from the industry reads it.

    • 0 avatar
      Exfordtech

      Taurus X, Flex, MKT.

      • 0 avatar
        azulR

        Replying to the suggestions of Murano and Edge as direct competitors to the Venza, or the Flex/C-Max/Taurus X/MKT.

        I’m anal retentive enough to have started a little spreadsheet with dimensions, including load length, for all the vehicles we’re considering. There are a few there in the “would it be worth looking at” category, but my wife is understandably just about car-dealered out and would not be thrilled to be trekking round anything that’s not a close fit.

        It’s hard to emphasize how strongly the dimensions of the old Taurus wagon represent her Platonic ideal of what she wants. So, my take on the extra items on the spreadsheet is:

        Flex – too long/wide/tall, maybe too ugly
        Murano – too tall (also goes for Edge etc)
        C-Max – too short
        BMW 3 series – too pricey, probably too cramped

        In reality I think the C-Max would actually be fine for what she needs, the number of Ikea etc visits isn’t _that_ great, but the load space is pretty small and I’m not going to push it. That’s especially because she’s driving my Mazda2 at the moment and hating it, so anything with overtones of cramped is not going to fare well.

        The plan at the moment is to rent a Venza for a day to check on how it would be to live with and use the time to go down the coast to Monterey to look at a TSX wagon at a dealer there. I suspect the TSX will be a little too cramped, so if the Venza checks out OK then that will be it. If not, then Murano/Flex/C-Max might be considered but we will probably end up with a Forester as a more than adequate car at reasonable cost. We could afford more but given the choice of a $40k car that isn’t really loved and a $25k kitchen remodel or a $25k car and a $40k kitchen remodel, the kitchen wins.

        I really don’t understand Ford. They have the Fusion hybrid with compromised load space and the Energi with even more compromised load space. They have the C-Max at somewhat similarly price with slightly better load space and slightly worse cruising ability. It would surely have been cheaper for them to bring over the Fusion wagon as the basis for a hybrid and energi version, giving the advantages of both their current hybrid models plus better load carrying, and with big savings in development costs. There again, maybe it’s as well I’m not in marketing.

  • avatar
    revjasper

    Would it have sold better if they called it the “Highlander Sport”?

  • avatar
    crtfour

    You would think this would be a hot seller based on how many Ford Edge’s & Nissan Murano’s are on the road (at least in my region) as the Venza seems to be the Toyota equivalent of these vehicles.

  • avatar
    Illan

    no one has mentioned:

    Hyundai Santa fe
    Hyundai Tucson
    Kia Sorento
    Kia sportage

    chevy traverse

    Mitsubishi Outlander
    =========================
    possible replacement-but expensive to buy and repair

    audi A4 Quattro
    audi a6 wagon

    bmw 3 series
    bmw 5 series wagon
    bmw gran tourismo 3

    MB c class wagon
    MB E class wagon (drools of e63amg wagon)

    —————————–
    a fit is a good consideration for all that flexibility

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