By on April 30, 2013

Next month’s Road & Track will be devoid of Baruthian driving impressions of the latest P Cars, but it will have lots of 991-related content to celebrate the 911’s 50 years on this planet. Among them is the scoop on the next 911 turbo, and it won’t be pretty for three-pedal driving fans.

Porsche’s PDK gearbox will be the sole transmission choice – likely due to customer taste as well as the ever-present desire to enhance the “green” factor of their cars. Fuel economy is apparently improved by as much as 13 percent with the new gearbox and start/stop is standard too. That warm and fuzzy feeling is the polar bears thanking you for making a responsible choice when buying a six-figure supercar.

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204 Comments on “Next 911 Turbo Abandons The Manual...”


  • avatar
    reclusive_in_nature

    Hardcore manual enthusiasts (you know, the ones that like to talk down to those who can’t or won’t own a stick shift) are like people who insist on churning their own butter instead of just buying it at the store. Yeah, it’s pretty nifty that you can, but you’re not really special, and no one but your own kind really cares. Get over yourselves.

    • 0 avatar
      missinginvlissingen

      I’m a manual enthusiast, but I (mostly) don’t care what transmissions other people use.

      It’s clear that this decision by Porsche will cause a lot of anxiety and hand-wringing among manual enthusiasts because it encapsulates the fact that over time, we have had (and will continue to have) fewer and fewer choices of cars with three pedals. And let’s face it, the 911 is a pretty big choice to lose.

      Those of us who prefer manuals just want these cars to be available… which means easy to buy, sell, and repair. We’d like to see more manual drivers only because it would help this availability in the long run.

      • 0 avatar
        dolorean

        Seems to me Porshe’s decision to dump the manual will mean those last few that you can get will fetch a higher price at the Mecum Auto Auction in a couple of years.

    • 0 avatar
      Syke

      Sorry, but a transmission that shifts for itself just isn’t fun to drive. Period.

      And yes, I am special, if only because I can drive any car out there. Which I guess is more than you can do.

      • 0 avatar
        Quentin

        If it isn’t fun, you aren’t driving fast enough.

        I’ve driven a PDK equipped 911 on a road course… and I had a blast.

        • 0 avatar
          bumpy ii

          Outside of a 5+ mile road course, where can one drive a 911 fast enough to have fun?

          • 0 avatar
            NMGOM

            bumpy ii….

            You may have a mistaken view here.

            The pleasure in driving a “manual” 911 is not only about going fast (although it can do that); nor is it about accelerating quickly (although it can do that too); nor is just about craftsmanship and perfection in materials and ergonomic design (although there is plenty of that).

            The real, unique pleasure in driving a manual 911 comes from its unbelievable roadholding, “clean” steering precision, traction, weight distribution, rev-ability, smooth-shifting transmission, and sound. Certainly the first 3 things I mentioned do contribute to the overall sensation, and so does Porsche’s reputation and heritage, but ultimately, it’s the unparalleled driving experience. And that’s a feeling, not a set of numbers.

            For that, any good, curvy back-country road will do….

            ————–

          • 0 avatar
            bumpy ii

            I was thinking in terms of the slow-car-fast versus fast-car-slow dichotomy. I suppose that the handling and such might compensate for for riding around at 2 or 3 tenths all the time, but I have my doubts and I’ve never been interested in slogging through the Porsche penalty to find out.

      • 0 avatar
        Idemmu

        Word!!

    • 0 avatar
      Nostrathomas

      You sound like the type of person who enjoys the destination. Manual drivers enjoy the journey.

      I don’t care if I’m special, I just have a much more enjoyable time with a manual than I do with an automatic. I’m not Sebastian Vettel, I don’t give a crap about lap times or 0-60s. My Cayman will never see the track. I just care about having fun, and that to me means having a manual.

      But yeah, there’s a certain satisfaction about doing something for yourself. Changing your own oil. Building a deck. Supporting yourself through college. Hell, making butter! Sure, there’s always a faster and more efficient way to do it…but again, it’s all about the journey.

      • 0 avatar
        Easton

        Well said. The 911 has truly lost something special. I hope they realize that.

      • 0 avatar
        SomeGuy

        Bravo good sir… Bravo. All my cars are manual, not because they are exactly the most efficient, it is just because I want to poke my eyeballs out from boredom with the automatic version.

        However, I myself am not due without criticism. I love the manual transmission, but I don’t buy new cars, so honestly, I am not doing my part to keep them alive. So if twin clutch is what is left of high powered cars then so be it.

    • 0 avatar

      Totally disagree. The butter analogy is perfect for drum brakes or radial tires but the simple truth here is that manual is a conversation about driving THEORY, not technology.

      I know that PDK is faster. But I don’t drive on the Nurburgring. I don’t need the extra 4 seconds. I DO need to have fun, which is why I will always want three pedals.

      -Former STICK SHIFT 911 Turbo owner

      • 0 avatar

        So, why don’t you adjust your own mixture and spark advance, then? Give her a shot of that enrichment before a corner for a good powerslide. The contention is really in your definition of “fun”.

        • 0 avatar
          CJinSD

          Two hands, two feet? Did Model Ts powerslide?

          • 0 avatar
            juicy sushi

            Some do:

            http://forums.24hoursoflemons.com/viewtopic.php?id=8210

            Stock, I’m not sure anyone’s thought to try…

        • 0 avatar
          Pinzgauer

          Yes, I do actually. My dad and I own a 1947 Fairmont M19 Railcar with a 2 stroke pop motor. You do have to adjust your own mixture and timing as you run it down the tracks and I rather enjoy it. We’ve had the chance to trade up to more modern rail cars with 4 stroke lawn tractor engines but we feel it would remove some of the fun. We go on 2-3 runs a year with a club called NARCOA on real railroads.

          And yes I do prefer manual, and wouldnt want my sports car to have anything but a stick. My dd has a CVT though.

        • 0 avatar
          Syke

          I have. 1929 Indian 101 Scout. And it is fun. Even if I do look like Wylie Coyote with the bomb hanging in front of his face as I go thru the curves.

          It’s called, I have a limit as to the amount of convenience I prefer to drive. Yes, you can do a flappy paddle/autostick gearbox manually; but human nature has one running it the automatic mode 99% of the time. I prefer to HAVE to do the shifts manually all the time – because I enjoy it, because I enjoy controlling the car 100% of the time, not just aiming it 99% of the time.

        • 0 avatar
          redav

          IMO, if you can’t have fun driving an automatic, it’s your concept of fun that’s a problem, not the car.

          • 0 avatar
            golden2husky

            That makes no sense. Sure I can have fun – a lot of fun in a PDK equipped 911 Turbo. And post even faster times than a manual, perhaps. But that entirely misses the point. A superb driver’s car is supposed to engage the driver as much as possible and reward skill. A manual is a direct connection to a part of a car that is simply lost by removing the clutch pedal. And a Porsche is supposed to be the pinnacle of such cars. I think the folks who think the loss of a clutch is not a big deal have never spent much time with a good manual in the proper road environment. A PDK on a Porsche is like a player mechanism installed on a Steinway.

          • 0 avatar

            Since I sold that stick shift 911 Turbo a year ago, I haven’t owned a manual car – and I have plenty of fun.

            But I wouldn’t buy a 911 Turbo in anything but stick shit. Golden2husky’s analogy is perfect: Steinway player piano.

          • 0 avatar
            redav

            No.

            The point is to Doug’s comment: “I DO need to have fun, which is why I will always want three pedals.”

            If you have more fun with a manual, great. You may also have more fun in a convertible, which is also great. But stick to that point, which is a manual is MORE fun, not a prerequisite for fun. It is a flat-out pathetic argument that expectation of fun somehow makes a non-convertible unacceptable because it lacks fun. Rather, it is just not as much fun for you. There’s a big difference.

            golden2husky’s Steinway argument is also weak because playing a piano consists of playing it (and that’s about it), while driving consists of far more than shifting. A better analogy is owning a Steinway and tuning/adjusting it yourself to get just the right kind of sound that you personally prefer & accentuates your style. There are plenty of musicians who do care that much and do it, but by no means does it suggest that it loses its enjoyment if you don’t. Rather, golden2husky’s analogy applies to self-driving cars, which I would count as valid–who has ever said they had had fun ‘driving’ while on the bus?

            MT advocates aren’t taken seriously in the real world because of lame arguments like these. Instead, they sound like whiny brats rather than mature adults with valid likes, concerns, and interests.

          • 0 avatar
            WheelMcCoy

            @reedav – golden2huskey’s Steinway analogy is spot on.

            Middle C or B flat should sound the same whether on a Steinway or on a mechanical player piano. The difference is that on a Steinway, a pianist can interpret a piece of music and play it fast or jazzy or loud or soft. A virtuoso can read music, must listen to the sounds, and adjust his or her playing, much like a manual driver must read the road, listen to the car, and adjust his or her driving.

            A mechanical player piano will get you from point A to point B comfortably. It can be entertaining at parties but a live pianist will engage your guests so much more.

          • 0 avatar
            cmoibenlepro

            @redav

            We are not talking about tuning your car or a piano, we are talking about shifting which is part of driving.

            In the future, there will be cars without any pedals and without a steering wheel. You will simply enter your destination in your iphone, and the car will drive itself.

            And you will think it is fun since the car is fast. You will not understand people who want to drive the car themselves.

            Your logic is deeply flawed.

    • 0 avatar

      The butter analogy would only be a good one if you absolutely don’t enjoy driving and your top priority is arriving at your destination (i.e. having butter to use). If your vehicle is merely transportation, and you’d teleport to where you’re going if you could, then yes, the transmission is irrelevant.

      On the other hand, even if teleportation came around tomorrow, I would still want to own a car and I would still enjoy driving it. And I would want it to have three pedals, to maximize that fun.

    • 0 avatar
      Summicron

      Hmm.. “reclusive_in_nature”

      As in, don’t get out much. As in, never drove a stick but I’ll bash ’em anyway.

      You may have no clue as to the amount of control one gives up with an automatic. You definitely have no clue that even chickenshit gentlefolk like me WANT that control for safety’s sake.

      Problem for me is that no one else in the immediate family can drive one and I won’t buy a vehicle they can’t use in an emergency.

      • 0 avatar
        dolorean

        Seems to me we’ve had this conversation before. Let me list the Top 10 Reasons to Own a Manual again for the viewing public.

        10. Buying a Porshe without a manual is like buying a Jaguar with the velour seats or Jeep Wrangler with RWD. What’s the point?
        9. Most Porshe 911 owners I know are douchebags, but somehow will seem more so with a flappy paddle gear set-up they can now bore you with.
        8. Somehow an automatic feels like driving a bumper car or golf cart. Driving without thinking.
        7. Anything underpowered but good in the twisties feels amazing when you wring every bit of the given HP out of it with a perfect heel-toe shifting.
        6. Almost always cheaper to buy the manual vs. the automatic, though Porshe owners most likely don’t care; however,….
        5. Maintenance, repair, and replacement of flappy paddle autos is astronomically more expensive than replacing a worn clutch.
        4. With most people not knowing how to drive a stick means your 18 year old son can’t borrow it.
        3. One of the greatest anti-theft devices and one of the cheapest. Not sure the actual percentage, but a great many car theives have no clue how to row it themselves.
        2. Few things are sexier than a woman who can heel-toe in a mini-skirt.
        1. It’s visceral input and tight control that makes a great sports car, not uber technology.

        • 0 avatar
          Syke

          Nicely put.

        • 0 avatar
          NMGOM

          dolorean…

          I fully agree, and wish to add a bit of theatrical hysteria:

          * Driving a manual is an act of Communion among Man, Machine, and Nature;
          * It is a road Ballet, a work of the “Performing Arts” that requires participation, engagement, competence, and thought;
          * It is Ownership of the physics of an automobile, and Responsibility for engagement or disengagement of Power;
          * It is the ability to rev-match and to double clutch and to provide intermediate torque-delievery with a clutch at will;
          * It is like playing a violin IN the orchestra of Road Life; and not sitting home listing to a bloody CD of that same music, pretending that it is good enough.

          Jeeze Louise, could not Porsche at least have left the option of the 7-speed MT open to us? How much inventory cost could that have incurred? Is every last Euro that precious?

          ——————-

          • 0 avatar
            mcs

            * It is like a painting vs. a digital photo. Yes, the digital photo is more accurate, cheaper, and faster – but it’s just not the same. You don’t have that wonderful human element.

            * It is like a fine whisky vs. pure grain alcohol. The grain alcohol works better if you’re just trying to get drunk. The whiskey you get to sip and savor every last drop experiencing a multitude of flavors.

          • 0 avatar
            NMGOM

            mcs….

            YES!

            ————–

    • 0 avatar
      turbosaab

      It’s like people who insist on cooking their own food when they could get the same nutritional content from a frozen dinner…

    • 0 avatar
      jkross22

      Yeah, churning your own butter is exactly like shifting a car.

      You nailed it.

    • 0 avatar
      Karaya1

      Convenience is for pussies – real men want to be in control. Real men prefer bolt action rifles and revolvers to automatics, manual focus prime lenses to auto focus zoom lenses on their cameras and manual transmissions on cars and motorbikes. I would have zero respect for anyone owning a sports car with an automatic transmission. It is rather sad that things have come to this. Ferdinand Porsche must be rolling over in his grave.

      • 0 avatar
        Summicron

        Grrr…Argh…

        But you’re using a computer when they still sell chisels.

        • 0 avatar
          Lynchenstein

          Chisels are for pussies. Use a stick dipped in the blood of the animal (or man) you just killed with your bare hands.

          • 0 avatar
            Summicron

            Sure, if there’s blood left over after you’ve painted yourself in a manly way.

            But watch out for those sticks with the sharp things all over them…OUCH!

            I cried all morning… missed a raid.

          • 0 avatar
            Karaya1

            That’s the spirit! If I was an automotive journalist I would submit my copy on sheepskin with the text inscribed by dipping an eagle feather in the blood of my enemies.

          • 0 avatar
            Summicron

            “I would submit my copy on sheepskin..”

            In my tribe, only the women submit.

            Well… and Troy.

    • 0 avatar
      WheelMcCoy

      @reclusive_in_nature – butter analogy

      Hahaha, I get it. A stick of butter and driving a stick. No, that’s not quite it.

      Hahaha. I get it. Butter from a store and butter churned will clog our arteries just the same! Hmmm, no. Actually, the butter churner will have stronger arms.

      Wait… I got it. A manual transmission as smooth as butter.

      I’m a manual enthusiast and support and encourage all to give it a try. I’d never look down on those who can’t or won’t drive stick. But I think you are projecting.

    • 0 avatar
      dude500

      Why buy butter at all, when McDonalds is just around the corner? Only hardcore cooking enthusiasts need to buy butter. Yeah, it’s pretty nifty that you can, but you’re not really special, and no one but your own kind really cares. Get over yourselves.

    • 0 avatar
      poltergeist

      My Mommy always told me I was special. ‘course she’s almost 70 now and still refuses to drive anything but a manual trans car. Like mother, like son.

    • 0 avatar
      cargogh

      Most of us manual lovers tend to forget how many times a day an automatic equipped, but otherwise identical, vehicle pulls up next to us blipping the throttle to race. When the road is clear of all traffic and cameras, and we are not carrying eggs, but are ready to rumble. All those times.
      If we recall how often this happens, and those times we are beaten by mere seconds or fractions of one, I’m sure we’d come around.

    • 0 avatar
      Splorg McGillicuddy

      The whiny analogy doesn’t hold up: Few people churn butter for fun because churning butter isn’t fun. It’s not that “we know how to do it,” it’s that IT IS MORE FUN and we know the value of it.

    • 0 avatar
      reclusive_in_nature

      Nothing like posting something, forgetting about it, and coming back to find it put a handful of panties in a wad.

      Seriously though, I have nothing against manual enthusiasts, just the ones that think they’re better than other motorists. I reiterate, and stand by the fact that if you fall into that camp, that you are not special. Advances in transmissions not only reinforces that, but will also soon render your ability to shift your own gears inferior/obsolete.

      Someone made a lame insinuation that I could not drive a manual. The first vehicle I learned to drive was a Ford Courier stick. I’ve driven my share of sports cars with manuals, and I’m not ashamed to say it was redundant. I can’t find the fun in doing something marginally more difficult for marginal gains.
      Kudos to you if you can. Just don’t strut about the internet like you’re somehow better than those who choose not to, because you’re not in the least.

  • avatar
    Nicholas Weaver

    As Dan Wallach put it to me, we are about to enter a world where there are two transmissions:

    For fuel economy, you get a CVT (which already does substantially better than a manual.)

    For performance, you get a computer-controlled manumatic designated by some random 3-4 letter alphabet-soup (PDK, DSG, WTF, ETC…)

    • 0 avatar
      CJinSD

      The CVT is also the performance transmission. The requirements for real performance and real economy are the same for a transmission. Williams had a CVT Formula 1 car ready 20 years ago. It was banned by the rule makers before it raced, such is its theoretical superiority. Williams-Renault had already shown it wasn’t just theoretical in their tests. All the paddle shifted involvement gimmicks are just that. F1 cars had already shed their shift paddles when Williams introduced the CVT. Computers were better than F1 drivers at picking shift points for as long as they were allowed to by the rules. Paddles were a sanctioning body-imposed performance reduction, now embraced by the ignorant in road cars.

      • 0 avatar
        Sob93

        Interesting. Hadn’t heard the science behind CVT explained this way before. Thanks for the education.

      • 0 avatar

        How does the computer know that a corner is coming up, so it can keep the revs?

      • 0 avatar
        tedward

        “embraced by the ignorant in road cars”

        I would dispute that. Having the ability to hold a lower gear is a real safety and performance advantage in a road car as opposed to an open wheel race car (on throttle or on brake only). Besides, I don’t think CVT’s are criticized for being slow necessarily, just for being joyless. Somehow I don’t think the joy of driving is even present on the priority list for a race car engineer.

      • 0 avatar
        stuntmonkey

        > Computers were better than F1 drivers at picking shift points for as long as they were allowed to by the rules.

        Sort of. I haven’t bothered reading the technical regs in some time, but the principle was always that a gear shift had to be a driver initiated event, but that the computer could take control thereafter. So one of the things that you used to be able to do (not sure if you can still) is to pre-select gears, like click 3 times to go from 4th-6th out of a corner. This because the technical regs stipulate that F-1 ars have discrete gears. And even that’s a sort of…all the boxes in F-1 are seamless shift, unlike road cars, when you change gears there’s no interruption in power because one gear hands off torque to the next.

  • avatar
    CJinSD

    “Fuel economy is apparently improved by as much as 13 percent with the new gearbox”

    Fuel economy is improved on the EPA’s dyno, as the PDK can shift itself into high gears just off idle while the shift points for manual transmissions are defined by the test with no relation to actual practice. The imbecile majority exacts a price.

    • 0 avatar
      DC Bruce

      Of course all of this fuel economy measuring stuff is driven by a particular test program, which may or may not correspond to the way a person drives . . . there’s no way around that. A test must be uniform in order to be valid.

      But, given that pdks do not use an energy-wasting torque converter, I’m going to assume that any real world fuel economy gains are the result of having more gears to choose from than are in a manual transmission. Consequently, the engine can be optimally matched to the load more of the time.

      In many cases, it seems the fuel economy advantages of an automatic (whether at DSG-style, a CVT or a torque converter/planetary gear type) are also due to a different final drive ratio and/or a different differential gear ratio. And, in some cases, the autobox version of the car is set up to favor economy over performance, as compared to the manual transmission version. See, for example, the Mustang V-6.

      • 0 avatar
        CJinSD

        Porsche’s manuals have the same 7 gears their PDKs have, so that’s not the reason for the 13% gain on the tests. Our old Acura TSX has a 5-speed, energy-wasting torque converter automatic that had better EPA numbers than the available 6-speed manual. The EPA ratings, updated and down-rated are 20/29/23-combined for the auto and 19/27/22 combined for the manual. The EPA’s own website shows that real world experience is 25.8 mpg with a low of 19 and a high of 33 for the automatic and 27.8 mpg with a low of 26 and a high of 35 for the manual. How valid is the test? What is it letting you compare so that you can make an informed decision? You’re better off with a car that isn’t tuned to excel on the test.

        http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=19528&id=19527

    • 0 avatar
      jkross22

      Well stated. Shift logic is nearly universally programmed for fuel efficiency to help cook the numbers the mfg can put on the window sticker. Not many people under 80 drive that way.

      • 0 avatar
        wsn

        Tell me, then, why don’t the manual driver adapt to the EPA test?

        The only reason I can think of is that human can’t beat computer in adapting to a particular program. If human can’t beat computer for a fuel mileage optimization, I can safely conclude that human can’t beat computer in acceleration, turning, everything.

        • 0 avatar
          WheelMcCoy

          >>I can safely conclude that human cant beat computer in acceleration, turning, everything.

          My computer can beat me at chess, but does that mean I should stop playing chess?

        • 0 avatar
          CJinSD

          wsn,

          The driver can’t adapt to the EPA test because the EPA test dictates the shift points in MPH for manual cars. Automatics shift on their own while the driver of a manual must shift at the specified speeds, even when it means hanging onto lower gears far longer than necessary for the acceleration rate dictated by the test. This is why GM used(uses?) skip-shift in their manual performance cars. By forcing a shift from 1st to 4th when the EPA driver wants second, the test is defeated and the EPA score shoots up. It does less than nothing for you in the real world, but that’s the nature of the test.

  • avatar
    gslippy

    For the True Believers, it stopped being a Porsche when the air-cooled engine went away. Then came the front-engined 928 and the Panamera.

    Now this. Porsche life is hardly worth living anymore.

    • 0 avatar
      CJinSD

      The Porsche 928 came out about 20 years before the air cooled 911 left production. It was a real Porsche, developed with Porsche family input and based on the best engineering solutions available with the technology of the day. It wasn’t until the 996 came out that marketing triumphed over engineering.

      • 0 avatar
        NMGOM

        There was a time when Porsche’s rear-engine (RE) pendulum effect on the 356’s, resulting in pronounced uncontrollable oversteer on the part of the inexperienced, almost caused Porsche management to cancel that RE approach altogether. And, you did see 928’s and 944’s coming out as the foray into a brave new Porsche world.

        Well, the outcry from the faithful tuned that around, so it can matter if everyone does protest directly to Porsche. There is no good reason why MT’s can’t be offered as an option. That would forego a heritage and a tradition which go back to Porsche’s own roots and expertise.

        Let’s not just moan in TTAC here. Porsche’s website is: http://www.porsche.com/usa/
        And their contact link is: http://www.porsche.com/usa/dialogue/contactandinformation/

        ——————-

        • 0 avatar
          CJinSD

          The 928/924 projects had little if anything to do with spinning 356s, which of course had been gone for years, replaced by spinning 911s. The layout was picked because it was the best way to package a water cooled engine and a 2+2 interior layout, which was Porsche’s traditional level of accommodation. Rear mounting made sense for air cooled engines, but not for water cooled ones. Water cooled engines are heavier, quieter, and can be separated from their source of cooling air. Porsche went with the front engine, rear transaxle layout because it provides the best handling while being easy to tune to pass European drive-by noise regulations that were becoming oppressive in the ’70s. It has since been adopted by…pretty much all of Porsche’s competitors. Corvettes, V12 Ferraris, Aston Martins, Nissan GT-Rs; they’ve all picked up where Porsche’s marketing department made them leave off. Water cooled, rear engined Porsches must be the ones that have Ferdinand spinning in his grave. He was an engineer, after all. Ever since the 914, less expensive Porsches have had to have their power limited artificially to keep them from running rings around the 911. It was true for the 914-6, true for the 944 Turbo, and its true for the Cayman and Boxster today.

          • 0 avatar
            NMGOM

            Hi CJinSD….

            Thanks for the clarification and elaboration.

            I guess my point was that it was the protests of the Faithful that were heard by Large Porsche Ears, and that did have an influence in saving the RE design (as I have been told by members of my local Porsche Club).

            DEREK and BERTEL…..Are you listening????? Please see below:

            Just as you recruited Marcelo to do occasional articles from Brazil, I think CJinSD is a great source of technical and historical information that can enrich TTAC, if he were asked to contribute articles on a regular basis. Just my view, but if anyone agrees (or disagrees), perhaps now is the time to chime in….

            ————–

  • avatar
    amca

    Porsche will continue to offer manual transmissions for as long as they can nail buyers $4,000 for a PDK.

  • avatar
    Zelgadis

    I can’t help but notice that it, like so many other cars with similar transmissions, has the + in the forward position and the – in the rear position. I’ve driven many cars in this configuration and frankly, I find it counterintuitive. My instinct is always to pull like I’m going from first to second gear. Does anyone else feel this way or am I the only one?

    • 0 avatar
      Robstar

      I told my wife this EXACT same thing not a week ago. She has a fake-shifter in her auto sorento. my higher gears are all back towards me (2/4/6) in my STi and my lower gears (1/3/5) are toward the windshield. I tried to go from 1->2 by pushing down but that didn’t do anything.

      SO counter-intuitive!

    • 0 avatar
      mypoint02

      I’m with you. On the rare occasions that I use the manumatic on my E39, I always have to think about which it goes. It’s more intuitive for me to pull back for an upshift as well. Messed it up more than once. Easiest way to remember: up for upshift, down for downshift.

  • avatar
    OneAlpha

    I’m drawing a line right now, because I’m sick of this trend toward an all-slushbox world.

    If the OEMs won’t make me a car with a manual transmission, I’ll do it myself.

    I know how to run a 5-axis mill. I’m qualified in SolidWorks and Pro E. I can get new manual boxes online and yank the guts out of them. I can run MIG and TIG welders. And I can get or make a standalone PCM.

    I’ll build my own damn manual transmission.

    I will not have my vehicular options dictated to me by the lazy and incompetent lowest common denominator.

    • 0 avatar
      Nicholas Weaver

      The thing is, its not the lowest common denominator.

      For actual performance, the modern manumatics totally demolish conventional manual gearboxes: their shifts are buttery smooth yet measured in hundreds (or even tens) of milliseconds, and the one disadvantage (the computer doesn’t know what you are going to do a second from now) is overcome by the flappy paddles.

      I like my manual transmission (S2000, sweet sweet manual). But I accept that if I ever buy a new performance car, it will have a DSG of some sort.

      • 0 avatar
        OneAlpha

        Faster shifts maybe, but that’s not the point.

        By using all four limbs and a heightened sense of awareness to operate the vehicle, you and your car become a sort of cybernetic entity. It’s an incredibly satisfying experience, as you’re aware.

        Without a clutch pedal and a shifter, you’re just steering.

      • 0 avatar
        WheelMcCoy

        > [dsg] their shifts are buttery smooth yet measured in hundreds (or even tens) of milliseconds

        Please, don’t say butter!

        But as OneAlpha says, it’s not all about fast shifts. It’s about being connected to the car. And a stick is still practical:

        – costs less
        – offers better control in rain and snow
        – can rock out of a snow bank
        – can be push started in a pinch (might damage catalytic converter tho)
        – no stupid eco button! You choose when to be enthusiastic or economical.

        • 0 avatar
          golden2husky

          That “rock out of a snow bank” might not matter for a garage queen sports car, but it is important for most other ones. My CVT equipped car does not allow for much slip at all before cutting power. It was very difficult to drive in moderately deep snow.

  • avatar
    7402

    Other dominoes have fallen in this line, but Porsche is a very big domino and I predict the steady decline of manual-transmission availability will drop off a cliff soon.

    I own both automatics and manuals. I prefer the manuals simply because they offer a more engaging interface. It’s about being involved.

    • 0 avatar
      Summicron

      “It’s about being involved.”

      Yes, as in never being further than microseconds away from your engine’s sweet spot when scary things you’d like to outrun happen.

      And an extra brake that never fades or locks the wheels.

      • 0 avatar
        mikey

        “Its about being involved.” Agreed I love how it forces me to think, your looking at traffic paterns, your checking for light changes. Driving a stick is a complete different driving experience.

        I don’t know if I will ever buy another vehicle, but I do it will be a “standard shift”

  • avatar
    jco

    the thing is.. 3-pedal manual transmissions just don’t feel natural anymore in modern cars with drive-by-wire. the revs don’t follow your input in a way that feels ‘correct’ like a simple analog cable and it ruins it. so for modern cars, the dual-clutch gearboxes are a natural progression. and honestly, they have their own entertainment factor. in addition, you get the ease of an automatic without the drag of a torque converter. i’ve had a lot of experience with a DSG car and it really does allow you to interact with the car in as direct a way as a modern electronic car will allow anyways.

    true manual gearbox Porsche enthusiasts will be better off buying a 993. and judging by their value they already have been.

    • 0 avatar
      lawmonkey

      Some are better than others. For natural feel, the stick in my BRZ is much better than in my old ’09 civic SI or ’12 TL, and comparable to my ’09 miata/mx5.

      • 0 avatar

        This is a very important point. The automatics on the vast majority of the cars are awful, simply awful. And by “vast” majority I do mean that. In my household, the only passable autobox ever was in my wife’s Lexus. Fix their awfulness and stick-yankers lose a large chunk of their argument.

        • 0 avatar
          Alexdi

          One of my favorite automatics was actually the GM 4-speed in my ’01 Malibu. The car was designed before anyone cared about fuel economy, so the transmission is extremely quick to respond and drop gears. Lovely stuff.

          • 0 avatar
            dal20402

            Seconded on the GM 4-speed. That transmission always did exactly what I asked, and did it very smoothly. It made some otherwise horrible vehicles (first-gen Equinox, early Malibu) relatively pleasant to drive.

            I haven’t found the GM or Ford 6-speed to be nearly as in tune with what I want.

            Another excellent automatic is the 5-speed in the outgoing four-cylinder Mazda6. Very responsive and smooth.

      • 0 avatar
        jco

        my brother’s 2006 Civic Si had an issue where the revs would ‘hang’. there was actually a TSB regarding an ECU flash to try to correct it.

        my 2006 mustang was also terrible. i bought an aftermarket flash tuner and even had a custom dyno tune done to map the throttle. it was like.. 98%, but not perfect.

        most manual transmission drivers rely on using engine braking. and for the most part electronic throttles are programmed not to fully close the throttle for emissions reasons. however, my experience with dual-clutch gearboxes has been that they offer a very good amount of engine braking as you drop through the gears.

        • 0 avatar
          golden2husky

          Rev hang is programmed in to eliminate a NOx spike when the throttle slams closed. It does not matter if the throttle action is drive by wire or cable; the hang is programmed in either way. Most here, I’d venture to guess, have never driven a carb equuipped vehicle. The revs decay the way nature meant them to.

    • 0 avatar
      blppt

      Sadly, I agree. My Honda Fit is lauded by just about everybody for having a “GREAT” manual gearbox, but its now been 2 years and 24000 miles, and I STILL cannot shift it smoothly consistantly. And I loved my last manual, which was, believe it or not, a 1979 Mustang 4 speed.

      This Fit 5 speed is notchy as hell, and the stupid DBW/emissions rev hang (which it seems everyone has to do nowadays) throws off every shift I make (my style has always been to shift quickly).

      Honestly, I believe I have grinded more shifts in this car to this date, than my very first car, a 5 speed 87 Plymouth Horizon 2bbl. Makes me feel like a n00b every time I drive it.

      • 0 avatar
        CJinSD

        Lift your foot off the gas before you push in the clutch to up shift. Enjoy.

        • 0 avatar
          blppt

          Yeah, I know, the problem is that while you are waiting for the revs to fall back, there are people behind you getting rather frustrated, and often coming close to rear-ending me by taking that method.

          Small worries, yes, but my point was that it takes the fun out of driving a stick in a newer car, at least for me. When you have to put constant thought into shifting every gear rather than relying on instinct and feel, suddenly a stick and 3 pedals simply becomes inconvenient or “too cheap to buy an automatic”.

          Which is why after waiting nearly endlessly for a Hondata flash to solve the hang (they still dont have one for the 2nd gen US Fit, just the first) I’m reluctantly going to be trading the car in shortly for something else. Its a shame, because even with the lousy shifter and the rev hang, I still occasionally have fun with the Fit.

          Oh well.

          • 0 avatar
            CJinSD

            Lifting before pushing in the clutch doesn’t slow you down, as the throttle remains open until the clutch pedal is in and it allows you to get into the next gear as fast as you can move the lever. Essentially, you’re compensating for the electronic throttle’s insistence on slowly closing to avoid a moment of rich mixture. I can’t even imagine a world where there are angry people behind you because you’re taking too long to get through the gears in a Fit. Only people who know they’re outside of the box are accelerating that fast in traffic. I can’t think of the last time someone accelerated briskly away from a light in front of me, so I don’t expect it. I’m not exactly known for my patience either.

            A friend drives a manual Fit. If there’s another car close to his, it is typically the one he’s stuck behind. One of his other cars is an AP1 S2000, but he hasn’t complained about rev hang in the new Fit and it isn’t apparent when riding with him. I assume he figured it out.

            One of the cars I drive has an 8-speed automatic. When I’m behind someone else driving an obviously automatic car, if they accelerate glacially, and they do, the transmission in my car will shift itself into interplanetary overdrive before they wake up and finally make the leap from 15 mph to 50 or so, necessitating an artless three or more gear downshift as their bumper finally starts to move away from me. I can’t say I’ve ever been behind a Honda that’s available with a manual when this happens. It happens with Odysseys and Pilots though, in addition to every brand’s alternatives to those vehicles. Lots of older Mercedes driven by older folks too, probably because of the hard shove the pedal requires to summon anything resembling acceleration.

            Unless you’re commuting past a UAW hall full of people angry about little foreign cars, there is no reason you should be feeling uncomfortable about your car’s acceleration in traffic. I don’t like seeing someone give up on driving a stick just because the fewer of us there are left, the less likely I’ll be able to get the car I want next time I need one.

          • 0 avatar
            blppt

            @CJ

            “I can’t even imagine a world where there are angry people behind you because you’re taking too long to get through the gears in a Fit.”

            Happens all the time. Part of the reason is the usual “I’m driving an automatic, why arent you accelerating as smooth as me???”, and part of the reason is that the 1-2 shift (which involves throttle lift, and momentary slow of acceleration) comes VERY early in the Fit because of the short first gear.

            Letting off the gas and then hitting the clutch doesnt really speed anything up, and the original problem of the extra pause (of slower or NON acceleration, the slow throttle closure is not anywheres equal to the level of acceleration that I was doing while still on the gas, IME) to wait for the revs to fall off is still there—-you’ve just moved it to an earlier point in the shift action.

            At least that has been my experience trying your method (short of double-clutching, I have tried just about every other thing I can think of). About the best method I have figured out to do is to lengthen the stroke of my throttle leg so that it forces my foot to come back on the throttle later than normal, but again, it makes driving less enjoyable, IMHO.

            Oh well, cant have it all for $17K I guess. Thanks for the help, anyways. My lease is paid up, and if I do shop another stick, this time I will test drive even more to make sure the rev hang is at an absolute minimum, and the box is a little smoother.

      • 0 avatar
        deliverator

        I’m in the same boat with my 2008 Civic Si. Yes lifting off the gas before pushing in clutch can work, but there is a very small window in which to do that before a tad of engine braking occurs (esp. in lower gears), so you have to time it just right. I also move the stick very slowly, and it’s usually not too bad. Some shifts, it just clicks right in. Others, not as much. But that 1-2 shift, with the guy behind me getting pissed off… Double clutching on the upshifts helps too if you can do it.

        I know, it can be frustrating. At least I’m not the only one with this problem. My first car was an ’85 Pontiac Acadian with a 5 speed.

        • 0 avatar
          blppt

          Heh, I know exactly what you mean about pissed off people in the rearview—-just imagine whats its like with a car thats significantly slower accelerating than your Si, heehee.

          Double clutching would just add to acceleration time and exacerbate the problem you mention above with people getting pissed behind you, wouldnt it? Probably would solve the occasional grind though. Thing is, at this point, as I mention above, the manual gearbox starts to become an annoyance rather than enjoyable, IMHO.

      • 0 avatar
        chaparral

        Try upshifting without the clutch.

        The procedure for a 3-4 shift:

        Put your hand on the gear lever. Pull back lightly shortly before you want to shift. Lift off the throttle. As soon as you feel the lever start to move, pull it back rapidly. Get back on the gas. Perfect, no-grinding, no-synchro-burning shifts every time.

        • 0 avatar
          blppt

          Interesting, but one of my issues with the Fit gearbox is how imprecise and notchy it is (unless there is something wrong with mine, the reviewers saying this is a “typically smooth Honda gearbox” are smoking something). While the 3-4 shift is about as good as it gets in this car, the main problem is with the 1-2 shift.

          Matter of fact, first is so short that I usually end up starting in 2nd as long as i’m on flat ground, and the transition from 1-2 is kinda imprecise. I’d say the 1-2 is almost always where I end up grinding. Maybe because the syncros protest during a fast shift because the revs havent fallen off yet? (the stupid emissions rev hang thing).

          With the Fit though, first gear is so short that unless you want to rev the piss out of the engine all the time, you have to get to 2nd quickly for smooth acceleration.

          • 0 avatar
            NMGOM

            blppt…..

            Seems the 1-2 synchro is not having much chance to engage. Some Aisin and other Japanese transmissions (I’m told) reduce wear by viscous (not strong contact) coupling of the cup-and-cone. But if the oil is too thin and temp too low, the gap can be large. You may want to try using Mobil 1 90W-140 hypoid gear oil or perhaps Red Line?

            Unless anyone else has other suggestions?

            I don’t know where you live, but if it’s Minnesota in January, this may not be an acceptable solution.

            —————–

          • 0 avatar
            blppt

            @NMGOM…I read somewhere that people had success with using some kind of GM-branded or used, oil as a replacement, I forget exactly what it was.

            Apparently the stock stuff does not work as well as it perhaps should for smooth shifting.

          • 0 avatar
            bumpy ii

            GM Syncromesh Friction Modified, although the Honda MTF 2 is supposed to be pretty good too.

          • 0 avatar
            Darkhorse

            Try Swepco 201. Owners of older Porsches swear by it.

  • avatar
    mikey

    I took my drivers test with a 64 Chevy, 250 stove bolt, three on the tree. I dumped my last “standard” when I got married.

    Nearly 40 years later I bought a SS2 6 speed stick. For the first week or two, I thought,” WTF have I done?” At 58 years of age,I had to teach myself to drive all over again.

    A year has gone by now. I enjoy every second of driving my Camaro. I can’t imagine a car like that with an auto.

    I just can’t see Porche giving up on the stick.

  • avatar
    PrincipalDan

    I’m more distrubed by the disapperance of manual transmissions from pick up trucks. There are some manufacturers where you can’t get a manual in a 1/2 ton truck at any trim level for love or money.

    • 0 avatar
      mikey

      @PrincipalDan…Your right,and your not the only one thats unhappy with that situation.

    • 0 avatar
      NMGOM

      Dan,

      Try looking for Nissan Frontier in midsize or RAM 2500 HD for full size (with or without diesel).
      I got the Frontier 2 years ago – nice 6-speed, but clutch engagement is too high (for me), and accelerator profile was obviously intended for automatics.

      ————–

      • 0 avatar

        Well yeah, I saw a new manual Tacoma too just couple of weeks ago (dealer exhibited). I suspect Dan means “full-size pickup”.

        • 0 avatar
          NMGOM

          Pete ….

          I suspect you are right. In that case it’s either the Ram 2500 HD or nothing!

          (Although I think the Frontier was a little bigger than the Tacoma, but I’m not sure, —- and in 2010, the Tacoma Double Cabs (4 doors) did not have a manual transmission.)

          ————-

  • avatar
    suspekt

    I strongly urge you to go test drive a 2013 Accord Coupe V6 with manual transmission…. it is one of the greatest joys in the automotive world.. Honda 6 speed manual paired with a J Series V6…. it will make you smile each time you wring it our through a few gears….

    • 0 avatar
      kvndoom

      I really, REALLY miss my 2011. I’m not due for another car until 2015, but the 9th gen Accord is up near the top of my list, along with the G37. I really want another 2 door car.

      I hope the ATS coupe delivers too. More options = good!

  • avatar
    hachee

    I don’t know what the real reason is behind Porsche not even offering a stick in this car, but on the surface, it just doesn’t make sense to me to not offer both. Same for Ferrari. I get that these new transmissions enable most drivers to go faster, but since these are not exclusively meant for racing, I just don’t get why there’s no choice. This is pretty ironic too, in that Porsche, with its mile long options list, offers the most choices.

    Truth is, I bet most of those who really want a stick would sooner choose a regular 911. For some reason, I find the decision not to offer the GT3 with a stick even more perplexing.

    I went to a Porsche road show event, and all the cars were PDK. I’m sure I was able to go a lot faster without having to think about shifting a manual. I walked away thinking that every car was amazing. But if I was buying one, I’d want a stick.

    • 0 avatar
      Jacob

      I am puzzled that so many are surprised about manual transmissions not offered on GT3. The 911 GT3 is meant to be as close to the real world GT3 racing spec as possible. It’s not a tourer. Being a real race car is all 911 GT3 about. And most higher level racing events had been using semi-auto transmissions for decades (touring cars, F1, GT, etc).

    • 0 avatar
      Splorg McGillicuddy

      Your 911 manual transmission has been cancelled so that we can bring you leather-covered vent slats because we’re a sports car company.

    • 0 avatar
      Darkhorse

      Its demographics. Us Boomers grew up with manuals. I learned in a 1964 Chevy Corvair with 4 on the floor. I never owned an automatic until I was almost thirty and faced an ugly commute in city traffic. I’ve owned six different Porsches, all manual. Reasons Porsche did this:

      1. Porsches are being bought by 40 year old men who don’t know how to drive a manual.
      2. Urban traffic is a stop and go nightmare in most cities. Want to drive 20 miles in stop and go traffic with a stick. Much as I love them I wouldn’t.
      3. DSGs are more efficient these days than manuals. Computers are faster and more efficient than Aryton Senna ever was.

  • avatar

    My ideas on the subject may be colored by the fact that I could never do heel-toe in any car. I gave up trying to explain it to the “enthusiasts”, just won’t beilive it. The problem is, since my legs are long, I have to drive with kees up, and from that position it’s impossible to tip the toes on the brake.

    Because of that, I very much welcome automated double-clutch trannies, and even slushboxes, since they permit left foot braking all the time.

    When I drove manual cars, I always abused the clutch by missing rev-matching. I found that the required excess traction was nearly always available.

    Note that none of the above is an argument against the third pedal, which is perfectly useable for the majority of drivers. However, when interests of enthusiasts became encroached by automakers, I found myself with access to much better automated transmissions than before, which I very much like for selfish reasons. So, Porsche works for me now, and I’m quite glad. Not that I would ever be able to afford one.

  • avatar
    jkross22

    Third pedals are theft deterrents. Many crooks are too lazy to learn how to drive stick.

  • avatar
    carguy

    From a company that offers any custom color interior you want, you’d think that a manual gearbox would also be on the options list.

    I got an invite recently for the local dealer launch of the new Cayman and there was not a single manual gearbox equipped car in the entire dealership.

    • 0 avatar
      CJinSD

      When the first batch of 991s showed up at the dealer, I walked over from the dealer next door while I had a car being serviced. The salesman offered me a test drive, but all they had were PDKs. He wasn’t even sure when the 7-speed manual ones would be built, but he told me what turned out to be a fallacious story about how the new manual was actually a computer controlled transmission with an H-pattern lever hooked up to switches shifting the transmission electronically.

      • 0 avatar
        bumpy ii

        What made it fallacious?

        • 0 avatar
          CJinSD

          I’ve since read in a number of places that the 7 speed manual has a real physical connection between the shift lever and the transmission. It isn’t just a video game controller emitting electrical signals.

          • 0 avatar
            bumpy ii

            Well, a wire loom would count as a “physical” connection. But yeah, a 7 speed shifter could be done with lockout gates for R and 1, then a conventional 6-spot next to that. You could even go to 9 speeds with another lockout on the other side.

  • avatar
    DrSpank

    Why can’t anti-shifters just admit that the increased adoption of higher performance technology sometimes, not always, takes SOME of the fun out of spirited driving?

  • avatar
    1998redwagon

    how about i select the manual then donate the difference plus 10% to some damn save the gay whales for christ group?

  • avatar
    Stumpaster

    I applaud Porsche for making the roads safer for everyone.

    • 0 avatar
      kvndoom

      Yes, safer by making it easier to text, apply makeup, read newspapers, and all of those other wonderful things I daily see automatic drivers doing.

      …and it will be even safer to do these things, versus driving in an engaged manner, in a car that is engineered to be pushed to speeds upwards of 170MPH with relative ease.

      Yup, I feel safer already.

      • 0 avatar
        redav

        Considering that I see people doing all those things while driving a manual too, yeah, I guess so.

        Let’s not assume that good/bad drivers fit so easily into such neat categories.

  • avatar
    Cubista

    Maybe Porsche’s engineers (like Ferrari’s, Lamborghini’s, and the GT-R’s before them) no longer see the need to hinder the performance of a 21st Century car with 20th Century technology. There are plenty of three-pedal options out there still. Just not in a car where maximizing performance is the objective of the OEM.

    • 0 avatar
      Summicron

      +1

      Yeah, actually.
      Furor is fun but I think you’ve nailed the reality.

    • 0 avatar

      If I wanted to go the fastest, I’d have a small formula race car or a bike. Much cheaper than a 911. Or if I’m narrow minded, something that starts with “Corv” and ends with “ette”.

      It’s really about catering to the mindset of moneyed douche bags who like to think they have purchased “the best”. Something they can also be seen in, getting groceries and going to dinner.

      I mean, yeah, but Porsche is still going to get trash talked on the Internet for a while.

      • 0 avatar
        Cubista

        I don’t know…it’s easy to pin a decision like that on “moneyed douchebags”, but you’re focusing on the wrong ones…not the ones who buy the cars, but the ones who build them. It isn’t reasonable to expect Porsche to sit by idly building a car with a gearbox they know to be inferior while Ferrari dealers are able to chide potential buyers by reminding them that Porsche uses a technology so outdated that Ferrari dropped it years ago. Those folks don’t build cars for enthusiasts anymore than Joe Satriani recorded albums to make gold records…it’s all about impressing themselves and their peers.

  • avatar
    highrpm

    I am personally saddened by this trend yet see it as inevitable.

    On the one hand, the stick shift made it easy to sort out the true Porsche/BMW/etc. fans from the badge-chasing douchebags.

    On the other hand, the Porsche DSG supposedly uses the same transmission as the manual. The DSG unit is packaged in the same location as the clutch normally would be. So in theory you can hold revs going into corners and still get the feel of a manual trans car, and not one with a torque converter.

  • avatar
    ajla

    This seems to only be for the 911 turbo. Which probably has to do with demographics as the hot-shoe types seem to go for the GT2 and GT3.

    And, I’m sure the GT2, GT3, and all the other lower 911s will still offer a manual.

    Plus, this is Porsche we are talking about, there will be a “Special Edition” 911 Turbo with a manual offered at some point.

    • 0 avatar
      CJinSD

      They’ve already announced that the new GT3 is automatic only, and that was the most driver-oriented car in the 911 line.

      • 0 avatar
        Quentin

        I think that it is fair to say that the 911 GT3 puts you into a different playing field than the 911. Assuming you can afford a GT3, you can probably afford to spend time at the track in it. If you are paying the big bucks for the additional capability of a GT3, why would you hamstring it by choosing a transmission that makes you slower? (This is assuming a non-elite driver, BTW… the guys that Baruth talks about showing up at track days in their 911s with matching race suits etc.) If you want to go out on the track and become one with the machine, something less potent will actually give you the time to hone your skills from turn to turn. A Miata, BRZ, S2000, or RX8 all seem like superior vehicles if you just want to go out and enjoy yourself. Even the base 911 with a stick shift would be a better car for that purpose than a GT3 when cost of entry is considered. I’m not pretending to be an amazing driver or anything… just a car enthusiast that had the opportunity to track a base 911 once. The capability of that car just completely bowled over my capability as a driver. Adding a stick shift to the equation would have just meant more missed apexes, more braking too early, and more situations where I was in the wrong gear. At speed, it is a lot to take in and ensure that all 4 limbs are on task. A 911 is far better as a daily driver than the GT3, though, so I’d probably still choose it with a stick. I certainly wouldn’t track it though, because while I could probably afford a slightly used 911, I can’t afford to write one off.

  • avatar
    LeeK

    This is a huge announcement and one that will no doubt be viewed as one of those significant moments in automotive evolution. If one of the world’s premier sports car manufacturers no longer offers a manual transmission in their premier sports car variant, then the writing is clearly on the wall for the rest of the industry. The manual is going the way of the dodo.

    I have owned manual transmission cars continuously for thirty years, but I’m no curmudgeon and realize the times they are a’ changing. For all you non-believers, go out and test drive a VW GTI (in manual sport mode) if you don’t believe how good modern automated transmissions are for enthusiast cars. The Evo MR has it, the Nissan GT-R has it, the 911 turbo will have it, the Bugatti Veyron has it, and just about all Ferraris and Lamborghinis will come this way. There is nothing less “driver oriented” in these brilliant cars, and all the complaining about the advance of technology smacks of Ludditism.

    • 0 avatar
      CJinSD

      I’ve driven a GTI-DSG the day is was delivered and I’ve driven one with 40,000 miles. I recommend anyone considering purchase do the same.

      • 0 avatar
        highrpm

        CJinSD, can you describe the difference in new-vs-used DSG? This sounds interesting.

        • 0 avatar
          CJinSD

          Find a used one and test drive it. If it feels good to you and you’re not put off by the maintenance costs, then go in with your eyes open. In my experience these sorts of transmissions age fast and badly. The same is true of badly driven manuals, but with an automatic the driver doesn’t play as much of a role. I don’t know anyone that hasn’t gotten bored with the paddles and let the automatic do its thing after a few days, so the wear is a matter of design rather than abuse.

          • 0 avatar
            bumpy ii

            I did the opposite in the smart car. Drove it around for a month or two in automatic to see what that was like, then used the paddles every day for the next four years.

          • 0 avatar
            tedward

            I’d say the difference in that DSG you drove was probably software not hardware. The clutch packs can be changed if worn but at 40k miles it would have to be romped on to have wear. Other likely component to check is an engine mount.

      • 0 avatar
        LeeK

        40,000 miles is the fluid replacement interval for VW’s DSG transmission. The service restores the unit to its peak operating potential. What is your point? That at 39,000 miles the transmission is a complete dog? That is simply not true.

        • 0 avatar
          CJinSD

          I drove it following an expensive service, although I don’t remember the details of what was done. I think the transmission had received more than fluid though. I suppose the point of contention is what constitutes a complete dog in a transmission. I’m much smoother in my 6-speed manual than that used up DSG was though.

        • 0 avatar
          ajla

          “40,000 miles is the fluid replacement interval for VW’s DSG transmission.”

          And that DSG service is such a blast to perform I’d probably stick with the manual.

    • 0 avatar
      golden2husky

      Leek, nobody said they aren’t good for what they are. It’s what they aren’t…that’s the problem. You either get the man/machine connection or you don’t. Sometimes technology takes as well as it gives and this is a perfect example. And the long term cost issue is another big concern for those of us who like to keep their cars for the long haul. How much is a rebuild of these transmissions? My brother recently dropped $5k on repairing the automatic in his Merc CLK…how much would a PDK type of transmission cost, even in a more pedestrian vehicle?

      • 0 avatar
        LeeK

        Oh, trust me — I do get it. The argument against automatics for the past fifty years is that they are (1) less efficient, (2) more expensive to repair, and (3) less engaging to the driver. I certainly enjoy driving a manual transmission car, particularly a one with sporting aspirations. My point is that the new multi-gear and dual clutch transmissions are so superior to the old automatics that the traditional arguments against them are out of date. Go drive one and keep an open mind. Want to go full manual? You can do that and even move the stick instead of using the flappy paddles. The only difference is you don’t have to use your left foot. Want to race around from stop light to stop light? Put it in sport mode and watch as the car holds the gear until redline, then shifts up. Want to just drive back and forth to work and not think about it? Put it in drive and just plod along.

        Yes, they are much more complicated pieces of machinery and if you are going to keep the car twenty years, then you should anticipate a major repair cost. The example that I use, of a GTI with DSG, will require fluid and filter changes every 40,000 miles for roughly $500 a pop. But if that transmission lasts 150,000 miles, the total cost of is not much different than the $1200 clutch and flywheel replacement at the 100,000 mile mark that would be experienced if the GTI had a manual transmission. Of course, if the DSG breaks and needs replacing or rebuilding, then that would entail several thousand dollars. But such is the world of any automatic transmission car. Some last forever, and some are prone to premature failure. I can’t deny that the potential for a broken automatic transmission is greater compared to a manual.

        Getting back to my main point, which unfortunately devolved to an “autos (and VWs) suck” tangent, is that the last refuge of the die hard manual transmission enthusiasts — the sports car world — is now facing the sobering fact that even Porsche is throwing in the towel with the iconic 911 Turbo and going automatic only. As automotive enthusiasts, we can either cry in our beer or face the harsh reality that the world is changing and there will be even less options out there in the future. But really guys, the new automatic transmissions are really, really good.

        • 0 avatar
          kuman

          As a driver and owner of all 3 types manual ( toyota SUV diesel ), DSG ( audi A3 2.0 TFSI ) and auto (toyota Yaris 1.5 ), I must clarify that manual, automatic or DSG boxes, They are all good in every respect.

          Traffic condition here is like 3-4 hour commute on traffic everyday. Could be more if i’m visiting my clients.

          Its true that auto provide much needed relieve on my left leg.

          However, when saturday or sunday arrive, which there are much less traffic, i’m more inclined to my manual car as i drove it in a relaxing manner (city speed) around the city. u know just to enjoy the drive, no races, no drags, just occasional high speed on the highway, rowing the sticks and simply enjoy.

          I tried this on my DSG, it just fast and well really fast… even without using the manual set, just put in Sport mode and it picks its gears better than me, but nothing else, i just went from A to B very very fast in lots of style too!

          The autobox… well after the DSG its just plain archaic… However i know it wouldn’t cost me that much to repair it, so heck, i’ll do what i please with it ( its actually fun when u know u risk of breaking it, but also knowing you can pay for it ).

          So in the end of the day for me ( might not for everyone else ) i found that : Manual box is fun in a genuine way and still the cheapest ( if u love to cook, there is no greater joy than make your own breakfast on a lazy sunday morning no matter how simple that is )

          DSG is supposedly fun, but with the repair cost looming inside the head, its tough to shrug it of and really let yourself go with it.

          I know what kind of people who insisted on extreme performance on their rides at any cost… they called the race driver or pro driver they could care less if its an auto or how heavy triple plate clutch is.

          I also know what kind of people who needs to drives their Porsche/Lambo/Ferarri in the traffic jam… they are the posers who cares about the look and prestige of their car and would prefer to arrive to a banquet or a dinner in the easiest manner at any price asked.

          But I don’t know how many other people, who drives their car because its affordable and rowing the stick on a decent and well maintained car is enjoyable. Not for the prestige, ease of use, which wheels it drives, technical prowess nor to impress other people.

          Based on the numbers of cars recently being offered in autobox only, i kinda saddened to realize my kind is shrinking.

          Porsche/Lambo/Ferarri moving to DSG is driven by their majority of buyers, its sad indeed that our kind is no longer considered.

          But its OK, we’ll find some other car with manual box we can have fun with, live with and enjoy.

  • avatar
    Idemmu

    I have two cars. One really fast one, and one really mundane regular one. The mundane one has two pedals, the fast one is an auto… I prefer the mundane one because of the extra pedal.

  • avatar
    focal

    nothing to do with eco friendliness. Basically China is buying the cars, and at this level, it’s mostly a status vehicle. The base 911 is plenty fast enough already.

  • avatar
    sportyaccordy

    I would love to know how many automanual advocates have actually driven such cars. After a romp in an F430 with the auto box I am turned off by them in a car whose purpose is driving engagement.

    The 991 Turbo, and dare I say all the post 993 turbos, weren’t about engagement though. I mean they were engaging, but they were built for high speed cruising. I wouldn’t turn away an automatic 996 turbo for example. So I don’t see the big deal.

    It is sad that the GT3 is auto only but at the end of the day money talks, not a bunch of crybabies on the internet.

    • 0 avatar
      Jacob

      The GT3 911 is meant to be a pure race car that’s built to the GT3 spec. You can race it in many real world competitions with little or no modifications. Now if you look at the racing, most higher leagues of racing moved onto semi-auto gearboxes like two decades ago. The truth is that they’re faster and that’s that. So the fact that GT3 is now auto only is not surprising, as it’s meant to give you a car that’s as close to modern racing GT car as possible. The shift to the Turbo to auto only does seem more surprising, as in the end it is a car for fun rather than racing.

  • avatar
    carrya1911

    I find it difficult to care that a car I won’t own doesn’t come with a stickshift. I assume the people who are sufficiently well-funded to buy a 991 Turbo or Turbo-S don’t really want a stick shift.

    Ferrari will still make some of their cars with a stick and best I recall nobody specs the cars with them.

    Such is life.

  • avatar

    At least you still have the new Boxster, whiners!

  • avatar
    hachee

    It wasn’t that many years ago that pretty much all Ferraris, Lambos and 911’s only came with sticks. 911s could be had with auto, but I believe the take rate was pretty low.

    So now that you can’t get a manual Ferrari, Lambo and (soon) 911 turbo and GT3, who’s buying these cars? Are they the same buyers who used to buy them with manuals? Are they totally different buyers? Are they happy with the autos? It just seems odd to me that there would be this wholesale shift in the way these are bought.

    • 0 avatar
      CJinSD

      There was a time when people drove their exotics. I only know that because I lived in Charlottesville during the late-’80s run up in exotic classic prices. There was a restoration shop and dealer called Pegasus that had twenty some Maseratis and Lamborghinis from the ’60s, and those cars came in used up and derelict. By the ’80s, the new ones weren’t getting driven much. Various publications had them listed used, and they tended to have three or four digit odometer readings. Most of them were difficult cars to drive with far less comfort and convenience than the S-class Mercedes that were probably their owners’ daily drivers.

      Automatics have actually been common in exotics for 15 years, kicked off by the Ferrari 355’s ‘F1’ automatic. Porsche 911s started offering fully automatic transmissions in 1990. I don’t know how the demographics differ, but most of the buyers aren’t the same people simply because of the passage of time.

    • 0 avatar
      Cubista

      And this kinda proves my point about the blame for this “epidemic” of twin clutch gearboxes being with the factories. When there were only manuals offered, it is because that was the best option available to maximize the car’s performance. Based on the marque, it is reasonable to expect that you were getting a better gearbox than any other that could be bought on Earth. 25 years later you still ARE, but the technology has evolved beyond that which provided the drivetrains controlled by a manually operated clutch; it HAD to. It isn’t the clientele that has changed…they’re still as insufferable as they ever were, and they still want the best performing car they can get. 25 years ago they drove manuals because that was the best there was at the time.

    • 0 avatar
      CJinSD

      http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2013/apr/30/no-new-leads-lamborghini-crash/

      I figure this story tangentially fits here, since you asked who’s buying Lambos with automatics. It also would have fit into the thread where people were complaining about cops who put forth zero effort. They have a wrecked Lamborghini, fresh from a known dealer. They have a physical description of the couple seen exiting the car upon wrecking it. “Unless additional evidence is discovered or witnesses come forward, this case may never be solved,” Mayer, a spokesman for the department, said in the email. I’m glad these guys are on the job. One almost might think that Lamborghini drivers that can’t drive are friends of the local police.

  • avatar
    Boxerman

    cept for the fact that the gt3 was never the fastest car, and they sold more than they could make. All we want is s choice, these things are not only bought on spec, but for fun of use, surely porche gets that.

  • avatar
    Boxerman

    Drove a 458 and a MP12, there was no point in using the pabbles there were better in auto, they also drove pretty much like hyundais, which means great in traffic, but where was the fun. Yes maybe a 10/10ths on a track they are fun, but eve there amanual would be more fun. Seriously why buy a sportscar if its no fun to drive, just accomplished.

    I think in a few years you will see a move back to stick, it wil be a connisour thing. In the meantime I will spend my $$$ with Chevy and Didge who ironicaly are the last bastions of the true super sportscar, who’d athunk it.

  • avatar
    Robstar

    For all you anti-stick people who want “modern technology” in a car, I’m sure you are counting the seconds until the google self-driving car can drive you around and you can read the newspaper, no?

    Enjoy!

    • 0 avatar
      redav

      For my daily commute, that actually would be quite nice because sitting, sitting, sitting, crawling, sitting, sitting, sitting, crawling, … gets old after a while. It’s all about the right tool for the right job.

      • 0 avatar

        Of course, the Google self-driving car will mean you can be working the entire time you are driving. The normal car will mean you’ll have to pay attention to your driving.

        For some, more work time would be a good thing… for some, it wouldn’t be.

  • avatar
    Volt 230

    They’re talking about autonomous cars all over the place and you still expect manual transmissions? you must be kidding!

    • 0 avatar
      kvndoom

      I’ll take the bus before I ever own a self-driven car. At that point it isn’t even “driving” anymore. What I don’t get is just why aren’t more folks demanding and using public transport if they *desire* a future in which they don’t have to participate in the act of driving?

  • avatar
    mitchw

    When Ferrari dropped their manuals around their ankles, I read that one reason was that the automatics kept the owners from destroying the gearboxes under warranty. So maybe Porsche also measures the lower costs of keeping owners away from the controls.

    As a driver of a stick Civic with no ABS or traction, I don’t know what I’d do if I somehow lost this car. The next car might just have to be an appliance as far as I’m concerned.

    • 0 avatar
      WheelMcCoy

      Honda will probably continue to make stick shifts. They even put one in on their hybrid CR-Z.

      Mazda and BMW are good bets to continue manual transmission.

      MINI Cooper manual take rate in 2011 was a whopping 34%.

      And here’s an interesting article stating that the American take rate on manuals are increasing:

      http://wot.motortrend.com/we-hear-more-americans-are-buying-cars-with-manual-transmissions-200597.html#axzz2RzT7umvH

      Still, with the advent of electric cars which needs gear changes, or self driving cars that need no driver, stick shift days are numbered. Until we get flying cars that is. I’m sure they will need a third pedal. :)

    • 0 avatar
      carrya1911

      Honda still offers manual transmissions in the Civic and the Accord. Bought a 2013 Accord Sport with the 6 speed manual myself.

  • avatar
    rickyc

    Well i guess no one is really surprise since the PDK take rate is like 4 to 1.

  • avatar
    Boxerman

    So that means 25% still want a stick. Since 90% of porche buyers are poseurs it means that even some of the pose crowd wants a stick.

    I would bet that if the GT3 was offered with a stick 50% would be stick, and of those stick cars 80% would actualy go to the track.

    If the new GT3 were the ultimate represenation of a track car as some here say as justification for pdk, then why does it no longer have the track derived motor like the cup cars do and the previous gt3 did, and where did you ever see 4 wheel steer at the track.

    The GT3 like the tubo before it was the pinacle of the porche driving experience, not necessarily the fastet but the best to drive and the most robust on track. Now it has been turned into a marketing special for the boulavadier crowd.

    For acuracy sake the GT3 cup cars do not have pdk they use a sequential manual. A pdk as we know adds 30Kgs and a whole lot of complexity.

    Nor were porche owners clamoring for the fastest most techno car, in fact the 911 track crowd is aghast at what porche has wrought. What they wanted was a fast viceral robust trackable car. The GT3 was technicaly always slower than vettes vipers and ferraris.

  • avatar
    AFX

    I was trying to figure out a way to make everybody happy with both a “third pedal”, AND and automatic transmission.

    First thing I thought of was a 2-speed Powerglide hooked up to a floor mounted dimmer switch like the cars had back in the old day. Click once for 2nd gear, and click it again to downshift back to 1st. A simple and elegant solution.

    But I know these guys are going to complain that this is the 21st Century, and that 2 gears isn’t enough in this day in age. Then I got to thinkin’, what if we used the same concept with a floor mounted shifter switch, but it could have more than 2 gears ?.

    Then the perfect solution dawned on me, and it’s one that’s been around since at least the early 70’s. A floor mounted shifter setup using a set of Moog Taurus bass pedals !. Not only could you have your “third pedal”, but you’d actually have EIGHT pedals to shift with !. You could use your left foot to change up and down through the gears, and if you were musically inclined you could match the revs to play along with something from Genesis, Yes, or Led Zeppelin. Imagine circling the Nurburgring while keeping in tune with “That’s The Way” by Zeppelin, or “I Don’t Care Anymore” by Phil Collins. Not only that, but the transmission could also be MIDI controlled for further shifting options too.

  • avatar
    tedward

    Porsche, running scared from Nissan since 2013.

    Let’s be honest, that’s what this is all about.

  • avatar
    E46M3_333

    Here’s why I like my manual:

    1. Cheaper to repair if necessary.
    2. Less weight.
    3. I can and often do, skip gears. These newer auto/manuals are sequential in nature.
    4. I can easily take the car out of gear and coast up to a stoplight, or sit there without having the torque converter trying to pull me along at 5 MPH.
    5. I can tell what gear I’m in by the lever; I don’t have to look at the dash for a number.

    • 0 avatar
      AFX

      “5. I can tell what gear I’m in by the lever; I don’t have to look at the dash for a number.”

      Speakin’ of which…they should go back to the old days with the gear lever and the brake mounted outside the driver’s door on the running board. Imagine a GT3 setup like that !. It’d make for some interesting close quarters road racing too, especially with the spark and mixture control on the wheel. You’d look like Keith Moon playing the drums just trying to drive it on a twisty road race circuit like Monaco.

    • 0 avatar

      #5 sounds very dubious to me, unless you have a gated shifter like they used to put into Ferraris. One can tell odd from even, but 1 from 3 from 5? Unlikely.

  • avatar
    Dave M.

    My soon-to-be-retired Trooper was the first AT car I bought new. While that was a conscious effort on my part because of the stop and go of constant rush hour traffic, I miss the involvement of shifting.

    My weekend garage queen is a Saab 6 speed. I was so proud of my 11 year old daughter when we went to get ice cream the other day….she asked if I was going to teach her how to drive standard like I have AT.

    Personally I think a standard transmission keeps you more alert as a driver.

    As long as 4 cyl econoboxes and small Miatas/Porsches/Nissans continue to offer a standard, I guess I’m good. I just feel sorry for the big $$ folks….

  • avatar
    Pebble

    Meh. Whatever. One day when I was 16 years old, my dad decided he was going to teach me what to do with a manual transmission, so we went out on a deserted frontage road in his 1976 AMC Hornet Sportabout, column mounted three speed. Dad was a good guy, but the last person you’d want to try and teach this to someone. I couldn’t get the hang of it, and before you knew it he was way upset…I can hardly remember him being so angry. “What, are you STUPID or something?” Now in tears, I suggested we give up on this, got out of the driver’s seat and we went home. Unsurprisingly, every car I’ve ever owned has been an automatic.

    • 0 avatar

      A patient teacher makes all the difference. And it’s never too late to learn.

      • 0 avatar
        Summicron

        Absolutely. My sister and I got the same treatment from our dad. So I said “screw this” and snuck the truck out to the roads around our cottage when he wasn’t around. After mastering the worn shifter & gears on a ’53 GMC I could drive any newer, tighter manual tranny.

        Then I taught my sister. There was always a VW around to sneak out & practice with at home. Gotta be especially gentle when teaching women, they’ve had a lifetime of belittlement from ass-hat males.

        • 0 avatar
          Pebble

          Actually, thirty years after aforementioned Traumatic Incident, I suspect I *could* learn how, teach myself without too much trouble. I totally get the idea behind it, just putting it into practice was the hard part that day–not made easier by my dad sitting next to me pitching a fit! My wife only drives crappy little cars with automatics (Cavalier, Mitsubishi Outlander, awful Plymouth minivan) so I don’t think I’ll have the chance to learn a stick at this point.

  • avatar
    APaGttH

    Pffft, who reads the owner’s manual anyway. What? We’re talking about that manual right?

  • avatar
    wmba

    I always bought manuals until 15 years ago. The Subaru/Audi dealer lent me an auto Impreza while my car was in for an overnight repair. I was impressed with the car, felt much better than I had ever imagined, not like all my Audis, but not a disaster by any means.

    So the next day, I decided to try out a manual Impreza. What an utter disaster! Recalcitrant shifter and poor clutch ruined the driving experience. I tried out a manual Legacy – even worse. I just could not imagine having to wrestle with that shift lever every day for years.

    A few months later, I ordered an auto Impreza, and it was a great car for me over the next 9.5 years. Of course I always used the shifter, all the time.

    When I decided to get a Legacy GT, I drove my friend’s example, and found the same five speed manual shit box in it. So I got the auto. Use the paddle shift for downshifting, the unfortunate backwards lever for upshifting, when needed. Even found that I can get the thing to sound like a manual and work like a manual by appropriate throttle manipulation. I guess you have to be a car nut to even waste the time to perfect that.

    My point is, if the manual is awful, requiring gymnastics and deep concentration to get a smooth shift, who wants it? Not me.

    So I find much of the above commenting not valid, at least for me. If the manual is a dog, are you going to blight your life owning one just because you want to prove you are a hairy-chested he man? Please, spare me.

    • 0 avatar

      Well said, wmba

    • 0 avatar
      NMGOM

      wmba….

      Excellent point. And Pete above (12:04 PM) said the same thing about terrible automatics.
      So, to do this comparison, we have to hold constant the notion that we can compare only properly (i.e., smoothly) functioning automatics and properly (i.e., easily) functioning manuals. It is possible to get poor offerings on both sides of the fence….

      —————-

      • 0 avatar
        WheelMcCoy

        NMGOM — It is possible to get poor offerings on both sides of the fence

        Exactly what I was thinking.

        And to wmba, a manual is not always about being a hairy chested he-man. You know women drive stick right? My wife drives a stick. And a Miata — not normally associated with he-men, but a brilliant car nevertheless — comes with a stick.

  • avatar
    Kyree S. Williams

    Oh, please. Surely everyone must have known this was coming. It was probably a combination of buyer tastes, bogus warranty claims, and the fact that the Boxster and Cayman have largely taken over for the 911.

    Besides, sometimes these things happen. Things go out of fashion or stop being made. I personally lament the fact that the current Bentley Mulsanne will probably swap its heritage 6.75L pushrod V8 for Audi’s 4.2L mill before I ever get the chance to own one.

    But you know what? There’s always the pre-owned market if these things are that important to you…

  • avatar
    jmo

    I think everyone here would agree that if they were the VP of Racing at Porsche, and losing the race meant they and their children would go hungry, if given the choice between the 7 speed manual and the seven speed auto they would have to go with the auto. It’s faster and that’s not of opinion, it’s a fact.

    Once that fact is established I’m not sure how you can rationalize selling manuals in ultra high performance cars.

    I say that as someone who has bought three cars in his life and all three have been manuals and I love them all.

  • avatar
    Nick

    It’s an accumulation of things really. First the bloatmonster known as the Cayenne. Then there was their wretched reinterpreting of the Tatra, the perfect car for dentists spouses to get groceries at Whole Foods. Now this.

    • 0 avatar
      Kyree S. Williams

      Those are also very profitable models. Plus, the Cayenne and the Panamera both manage to embody Porsche values within their respective segments. But if you really feel that way, you’ll be able to feel that much more smug and elite when you purchase your stripped, manual-transmissioned 911…

  • avatar
    Boxerman

    “I think everyone here would agree that if they were the VP of Racing at Porsche, and losing the race meant they and their children would go hungry, if given the choice between the 7 speed manual and the seven speed auto they would have to go with the auto. It’s faster and that’s not of opinion, it’s a fact.

    Once that fact is established I’m not sure how you can rationalize selling manuals in ultra high performance cars.”

    Ok then if its about winnning races how come the race GT3s use sequential manual boxes. A. they are kighter and more robust. Q. If its about wining races how come the porche race cars have the metzger engine whereas the new GT3 has a stock based engine, A. because the new GT3 is amarketing special about sales to ever more posuers who want what appears on paper to be faster. Q. If its about wining races how come the race cars have n 4 wheel steer. A. because its banned in racing and probably not robust enough.

    The PDK only thing is a fuel economy emissions easy way out for porche. Allowing a manual requires essential two developments, its not worth it to porche, just sell the public a load of crap about PDK being the futiure and dont bother with a manual.

    Thing is we buy sportscars for fun, at least many of us do, I know for most its fashion pose. Its not about theoretical ultimate lap time its about fun and engagement with the machine. Between PDK only and EPS porche has removed two USP’s to the 911. What the 991 is in fact is a rear engined 928 and we know how iconic the 928 became considering like the 911 its still in production? And were not most 928’s auto too. I think car companies abandon the driver trackday crowd at their peril. Brand cred comes not only from racing but also from weekend warriors, maybe more so.

    Expect corvette Viper Noble Lotus etc to pick up the slack. Maybe porche wont notice it now, what with suburban moms picking theor kids up in turbos, but in time porche will have devolved into just another sporty car, whereupon it will be displaced by nissan or audi or maser. You loose the faithful at your peril, and frankly if they cared as BMW does they would offer a manual, 20% of customers should not be dissed. I say this is a major marketing blunder.

    • 0 avatar
      jmo

      “Ok then if its about winnning races how come the race GT3s use sequential manual boxes”

      I would assume it’s the same reason we don’t have gas turbine powered F1 cars. The technology is so vastly superior, it wasn’t advisable from a marketing perspective and thus prohibited by the rules..

    • 0 avatar
      jmo

      “Between PDK only and EPS porche has removed two USP’s to the 911.”

      I assume you mean Unique Selling Position and Electronic Stability Program,

      IIRC F1 bans “EPS” because it makes the cars too fast around the track.

    • 0 avatar
      George B

      Seems to me if you’re buying a Porsche for driving enjoyment, you’re better off buying a manual transmission Cayman or Boxter. The money saved to buys lots of gasoline, tires, and brake components. Saves money on Douchebag Jar contributions too. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIrFhZe_dD4

  • avatar
    Ubermensch

    Why would I care that a car I will never be able to afford no longer has a certain transmission option? #firstworldproblems

    • 0 avatar
      cargogh

      Trickle down theory.

      • 0 avatar

        First they came for the manual Porsches, and I said nothing because I could never afford a Porsche. Then they came for manual BMWs, and I said nothing because I don’t like Bimmer poseurs. When they came for my manual Corvette, there was nobody left to say anything for me.

        • 0 avatar
          Ubermensch

          Who are ‘they?’

          Stop being dramatic, we aren’t talking about the Holocaust, it’s just uber cars for the 1%. If they buyers don’t want manuals (which apparently is the case) then the manufactures will stop offering them. Isn’t that what all the free-market fetishists on here want anyway?

  • avatar
    wsn

    For those who wants to connect with the car, we may have that in 20 years, like running an optic from your brain to the car.

    • 0 avatar
      WheelMcCoy

      >>For those who wants to connect with the car, we may have that in 20 years, like running an optic from your brain to the car.

      That sounds like something for those who prefer automatics. No need to use your hands or feet. :)

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