By on August 8, 2012


“That is how I drive. Flat Out.” So says the infamous, Miata-blocking Koenigsegg/GT2 driver in the trackday community’s Most Favorite Video Ever. As a journeyman instructor and track rat, I encounter fellows like this all the time — but just as often, I see reasonably talented drivers in small-caliber hardware who take a perverse pleasure in holding up equally talented students in Corvettes and the like. When I discuss their behavior with them, they will always say, with a sort of wounded, defensive pride,

“It’s more fun to drive a slow car fast, than it is to drive a fast car slowly.” My response is always the same:

“Yes, but it’s the most fun to drive a fast car quickly, so next time, I need you to point us by before the Climbing Esses.”

The Genesis 2.0t R-Spec has the most power, the lowest lap times, and the most ridiculous name in our little group. It’s the fast car of the group, and it’s fun to drive fast, too. Why’d it finish second?

Before we get to the part of the review where I natter on about how the Genesis “rushes to the apex like the furious Golem of legend with its arse on fire” and “stamps every exit with the authority of close to three hundred fire-breathing turbocharged Korean Eohippuses” or something like that, we’re going to take a moment to let some of the people in the classroom go home early. If you are in the market for a car of this type, and you have no interest in driving your personal car in a fashion which is both time-consuming to learn and reasonably risky to undertake, and you don’t care to put the top down on fall evenings, you can close the browser window now, turn your computer off, go to your local Hyundai dealer, and arrange financing for your new Genesis.

Let me tell you some nice things about the Genesis. They are all true, and perhaps it will keep the Genesis-forum guys from joining the mass of underemployed FR-S wanna-bes who are currently camped out on my front lawn and threatening to burn my house down. (To those people, I have only one thing to say: playing the solo from “Mr. Brownstone” is tougher than it sounds, so I’m going to go ahead and practice it fifty more times with the volume cranked, and sometimes I’m going to just stop the song in the middle and go back for another try.)

The Genesis looks great on the inside, even in two-liter trim, and on the outside it is, ah, distinctive. Here at TTAC, we are of the opinion that the facelift helped matters in that regard. The original nose was tres generic. This one’s like the LS1 Trans Am compared to the LT1 model: not nearly as graceful, but it clears the lane like Charles Barkley. It’s also recognizably a Hyundai, and that’s starting to be important for everyone involved, both the company itself in its efforts to build the Hyundai brand and for the growing community of young people who are proud to be seen driving one. Like it or loathe it, once you’re inside there are no excuses necessary. It feels special in the way that owners want their first “nice” car to feel special.

Although Hyundai no longer plays the value-for-money card with completely committed fervor, the Genesis is still aggressively priced. It costs more than the pre-facelift model, but you get more for your money, particularly in the engine room. On the spec sheet and standard equipment list alone, the Genesis would handily win this comparison. It also beats the infamous V-6 Mustang as an over-the-road proposition, being noticeably more pleasant to drive around town and considerably easier to park.

In a straight line and around an off-ramp, the Genesis is rapid, impressive, and stable. If the FR-S has a bit of the normally-aspirated 300ZX to it — willfully slow and incapable of pushing its chassis — the Genesis happily plays Fox Mustang by contrast. The engine is the point here. We’ve all read complaints about turbo lag. That’s what happens when you twist 274 horsepower out of two liters. You can’t conquer the laws of physics. The specific output of the GenCoupe beats most variants of the GT-R and 911 Turbo, and those hallowed steeds have a turbo for each side of the block. In any event, the turbo lag isn’t bad. It isn’t a Switzer GT2 or something like that. It’s a perfectly reasonable car with a 100,000-mile warranty that just happens to make a lot of power.

Unnnnn-fortunately, it also weighs a lot. At 3,300 pounds, it’s a chunky monkey. For that reason, although I’m virtually certain the Hyundai puts more power to the ground and has a much fatter torque curve than, say, my 1995 Porsche 993, when it’s time to hustle the old Superbeetle kicks its ass up through its massive grin. We can let a few more readers out of the classroom now, too: the simple answer to “Why didn’t the Genesis win your stupid test?” is the simple word:

Weight.

Around Toronto Motorsports Park’s perfectly flat, perfectly unremarkable, lunar landscape of a road course, the Genesis is a car of much bigger inputs than those required by the FR-S. Down the front straight — bam! The engine picks up and rushes to the apex like the furious Golem of legend with its arse on fire. Once you get there, the standard Brembos are massively useful to have. Any fade is almost certainly due to the standard-equipment pads. Pad swaps are much easier than caliper swaps, and much cheaper. Don’t skip out on the R-Spec option if you plan to track the car. Into the first turn, the Genesis proves to easily have the same amount of cornering ability as the FR-S, and it’s just as easy to drive. It isn’t as nimble, but that’s not relevant until you get to the second section of the track.

Once you’re there, the R-Spec can feel a bit truckish to get through the tight left-right-left section, but unlike the FR-S you can cheat and rotate the car on the throttle a bit. Plus, it isn’t like the FR-S is a natural-born racecar through the tight turns anyway — for that, you need the Miata.

Our friends at AutoGuide complained about the transmission, but we didn’t have any issues. It might just be because AutoGuide’s Dave Pratte is a world-famous Canadian time-trial driver and your humble author once had to do a 218-minute race stint in an ’86 Supra with well over 200k on the clock. Compared to an ’86 Supra with well over 200k on the clock, the Genesis might as well be a Caterham Seven in the whole gearbox department. It is a bit long-throw. Put on your big-girl panties and deal with it.

Not like you have to shift all that much anyway. The Genesis can be loafed in third through sections that have the FR-S and Miata repeatedly slapping their rev-limiters in second. It’s strong like that. If you’re in the mood to hustle, you can use the gearbox and let the engine build boost from the apex. When you do that, the two-liter stamps every exit with the authority of close to three hundred fire-breathing turbocharged Korean Eohippuses.

It’s fundamentally a very nice car around TMP. As with the 3.8-liter V-6 model of the same car, the forward visibility is nice and solid in the Japanese low-hood tradition. It’s easy to see your marks on-track, and as long as you respect the car’s size and weight, it’s easy to hit your marks on-track. It’s hard to escape the sense that the Genesis, although perfectly capable of track work, would rather be cruising the boulevard with its angry face or hammering the left lane with its ramped-up turbmotor. Of the three cars in our test, the Genesis saw the least amount of time behind the wheel. We all wanted to drive the FR-S because, hey, it’s the FR-S, and it’s a celebrity. We all wanted to drive the Miata because it was a joy to drive. The Genesis? Fast, competent, and entirely ready to hit the road for lunch.

As previously stated, the Hyundai’s engine in the FR-S easily wins this comparison. When you separate the proverbial peanut butter and chocolate, however, you get two contenders that don’t quite cut the mustard.

Why did the Genesis beat the FR-S? This is a track test. Going fast counts for a lot. The Hyundai is faster than the Scion. Had the Scion been hugely superior to the Genesis from a dynamic standpoint — as we expected it to be — then we’d be willing to overlook the speed deficit. It isn’t, so we aren’t.

Why did the Genesis lose to the Miata? The Miata was hugely superior to the Genesis from a dynamic standpoint. Enough so to overcome the laptime difference. It’s that simple. Fast beats slow, great beats fast. The Scion is too slow; the Hyundai is too heavy. On the open road, the Hyundai is your winner; around the racetrack, it’s just a strong second place.

Images courtesy of Julie Hyde, who was mostly hired on account of her outstanding rack.

Get the latest TTAC e-Newsletter!

98 Comments on “Boomerang Basement Bolides — Second Place: Hyundai Genesis 2.0t R-Spec (Yo)...”


  • avatar
    grzydj

    The Miata is a staggering 10 grand more (in Canadian dollars eh) than the two other vehicles tested against it. Is that really being competitive in the same price point if the price spread is that different?

    Since you alluded to the fact that these cars can be had much cheaper than the MSRP, $41,940 for the 2012 MX-5 GT in this instance, how did you procure these “test track” cars? Usually there’s some sort of disclaimer at the bottom of the page that reveals this information, but in this case there isn’t.

    • 0 avatar

      I can’t tell if this is a serious question or if you’re pedantic enough to go down this route – based on your incessant tomes in the FR-S thread, I suspect the latter. I will indulge you nonetheless. The cars were provided by the OEMs. The MX-5 was not a GT, in fact. We were slated to get a $33,995 CDN SV trim, but none were available, so a $35,995 GS was substituted in. The other buff books seem to agree with us that it’s a valid comparison, no matter what side of the border they are on. Also, bear in mind, everything is 30 percent more, economies of scale aren’t the same due to smaller market, exchange rates are different, your poor attempts at nitpicking and trying to sound smart fall flat. Sorry.

      EDIT: Only suckers would pay retail for an MX-5 in Canada. Past years, a loaded GT PRHT can be had for as much as 10k off retail price.

      • 0 avatar
        grzydj

        No, I’m being truthful. I just don’t know why this particular test has seemed so shady from the very beginning.

        No track times. No price as tested. No manufacturer disclaimers that are compulsory in these kinds of comparisons on TTAC. Something just seems missing. That’s all.

        • 0 avatar

          You’re not being truthful. You’re acting like a jackass and trying to discredit the integrity of my writers based on absolutely inconsequential points. For all your indignation, you haven’t stopped reading or commenting.

          1) We disclosed multiple times that the Traqmate system, which costs somewhere in the area of $1000 USD, was not available due to it being hardwired in Jack’s race car. It’s not feasible for us to purchase one on a whim.

          2) There’s nothing missing or even opaque and to suggest it is absurd. We invited any reader that was interested to come participate. Two took time off work to do so. One lent us the Delica for filming.

      • 0 avatar
        grzydj

        Hey, your boss said that name calling in the comments was strictly verboten. :(

        Either way, I do think a list of some of the more important verifiable metrics like 0-60 times, lap times, price as tested etc are important to readers who are trying to understand the perspective of the writer.

        I realize that instruments were not available to measure those, but a reference to other media outlets that have produced similar tests would have been informational.

        I’m sorry you think I’m being pedantic or combative, I’m not. I’m just trying to find what the basis of this test is supposed to be all about since there are no measurable ways to determine that otherwise.

      • 0 avatar
        ajla

        I don’t have any problem with the review’s content but you probably should include the little “… provided the vehicle and insurance” line to the end of the review seeing how that has always been an important part of the TTAC review system.

      • 0 avatar
        Speed Spaniel

        I hate to butt in, but Derek this is a little harsh. I agree with the feedback that cars can “feel” a certain way and I certainly appreciate opinions from experienced drivers, but test data measured by an accurate and nonbiased instrument would perhaps lend another perspective to readers so they could draw their own conclusions (I understand such an instrument wasn’t available). I think perhaps there might be readers who might suspect Mazda had some involvement with this event.

        • 0 avatar

          SS,

          I’m getting very weary of having to defend my writers from a group of malcontents who are unhappy that we did not validate their opinions. To suggest that there is Mazda involvement of some sort is extremely disheartening. We couldn’t even get specification we wanted. Was their Mazda involvement when Randy Pobst also said that on a subjective basis, he preferred the MX-5? Or was there Subaru/Scion involvement when the cars somehow finished first in the Motor Trend test? I have information, which was delivered on a “not for attribution” basis, that suggests the latter in the case of other publications.

          We’ve been as transparent as possible regarding the lack of quantitative data, and where the cars came from. I promise that were we all in a room together, 99 percent of the commenters wouldn’t dare adopt a tone like the one they use in the comments. There are elements within the readership who are not holding up their end of the bargain; criticizing us for things we simply did not say, putting words in our mouths and behaving in a manner unbecoming of TTAC. I am loathe to ban anyone who does not violate the terms of conduct, but at some point, the tone of discussion must become more civil or action will be taken.

      • 0 avatar
        dan1malk

        Kreindler is a joke, just like Baruth.

        Blowing their “We’re better than everyone else” trumpets from their high horses, then behaving as poorly as the people they condemn.

        How about a little professionalism guys?

        And he a point in there somewhere. Without any numbers or anything, this video is little more than some guy telling you what he thinks is better with nothing tangible to back it up. Couldn’t somebody have used a stopwatch or something?

        Not specifying the manufactures gave you the cars too is also bizarre. Isn’t Baruth the first to berate Motortrend for taking advantage of all their free perks? Business as usual, I guess.

      • 0 avatar
        grzydj

        @Derek

        There are a few simple solutions that could have been implemented that could have quashed all the vitriol that has consumed both of these articles.

        Track times could have been tested with a simple stop watch. Would it be scientific? No, but it would at least give a baseline of performance for each model as they are. You could have also done a standing start lap in car and set a timer with the video and mark the times that way too.

        I mean, you did spend a quite a bit of time roaming around a track in a van when you could have been trying to lay down some basic verifiable lap times with crude, but reasonable instruments. Nobody would have been offended by a few tenths of margin if you had to use an analog stopwatch or results from an in car camera timing. That would have actually been very fun to watch for the readers as well.

        The prose and overall tone of these articles have been a bit inconsistent and overall messy. No other articles I’ve read on TTAC have spawned so many questions about the testing and lack verifiable information about anything related to it. I seriously love what you guys do here, but this whole segment is just not up to the standards I expect from TTAC.

        The comentariat is the counterpoint to your counterpoint. I don’t see the point in berating commentators who are questioning your motives and test procedures in such a different manner than we are accustomed to.

        If you find that to be disingenuous, then I don’t know what else to tell you.

      • 0 avatar
        Feds

        “quite a bit of time in the van” 2 Laps at best. That was a 1 take shot, as I had to get back home.

        I can also add some unscientific quantifiable data: At the end of the front straight, the miata was the slowest, by 10-or-so km/h. The Scion was 10 km/h faster, and the Hyundai was 15 km/h faster than that. Based solely on my watching the speedometer in each car.

        Also: in one of the cars (I can’t remember which, let’s say it was the FRS, just to feed the trolls) we reeled in and passed a GT-R that was there as part of a “supercar experience”. Thus, the FRS is faster on the track that a GT-R, and thus better. Considering that no one in their right mind would say the Hyundai or Mazda are better than the GTR, I have conclusively proven, using observed facts, that the FRS is better than the Hyundai or Mazda.

      • 0 avatar
        mike978

        Wow, TTAC has a review that doesn`t please some people and insinuations of taking money from Mazda or Hyundai pop up. Yet in all my time reading this site I haven`t seen any “pro-Detroit” commentators say that TTAC or BS are taking money from Toyota, which would be an absurd and offensive statement to make. It is ironic that those suggestions are made and then tout magazine comparison tests which are even more open to “inducements”. Some of those complaining have been the first to hit magazines for their Car of the Year results and others. How things change.
        It really does look like some people who like to dish criticism of some companies out are unable to take it and have very thin skins.
        What I took from this series was that the FR-S is a good car, just not the best under these circumstances for these drivers. It is an opinion. Nobody said it was a Caliber or Aveo bad. Some perspective would be great from grzydj and others.

      • 0 avatar
        grzydj

        @Derek

        I think you need to take a few steps back and cool off for a bit, as you are taking criticism of your lack of testing methods way too personally, and you are in fact violating your own codes of conduct with name calling.

        http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/faqs/#commentpolicy

        “No personal attacks on other commenters or TTAC authors. Disagreement is no attack, name calling is. You may make a robust argument, but you may not insult the other person. To provide for a safe workplace for TTAC authors, there are increased standards. The decision of what is an attack rests with TTAC moderators, and their decision is final.”

        You did call me a jackass, which easily qualifies as personal insult.

        @ringomon

        Well stated.

      • 0 avatar
        dan1malk

        I think your just taking these criticisms way too personally. I understand putting that film together took a lot of time and probably money, but you act like everyone is stepping on your puppy instead of simply taking not, and maybe improving on the next one.

        We want the best out this site just as you do, but when your snap (and slightly un-”civil”) responses just attack and put-down their opinions, you lower to their level and just draw more questions and criticisms because YOU’RE acting unbecoming of TTAC.

        I’m sorry you feel the need to ban for these statements, but if anything, that is just another example of your hostility.

        I guess the “Best and Brightest” are only what your ban-hammer shapes them to be. Don’t bother sending it my way though, I’m not going to DARE adopt a tone with someone on a horse so high, with a hammer so big.

        Adios.

        EDIT: Also, I don’t have a horse in this race, so any opinion with my side not agreeing with the results is bogus. I think I’m getting the Abarth.

      • 0 avatar
        mike978

        dan1 – it is surprising that you say “I think your just taking these criticisms way too personally.” When earlier on you said “Kreindler is a joke, just like Baruth”.

      • 0 avatar
        dan1malk

        mike978,
        Yes, I called him that after he stooped to hostile, childish name calling when he specifically tells us not to just that.

        So, I stand by that statement.

    • 0 avatar
      Pch101

      “Is that really being competitive in the same price point if the price spread is that different?”

      In the US, the base MSRPs for all of these cars are comparable. (Since I don’t know how these cars were equipped, I can’t comment on the as-tested sticker prices, but they’re probably also similar.) On a price-dependent basis for a US audience, comparing these three cars with each other is totally reasonable.

      • 0 avatar

        Thank you

      • 0 avatar
        mike978

        grzydj – can you give it a rest now, nothing is being achieved especially when you question TTAC’s integrity.
        You (and many others) like/love the FRS and think it is the best. Great, no problem. Others think it is good but not THE best. Difference of opinion, that is all.

      • 0 avatar
        Thill

        100% agree. Especially when you factor in street price, and the cost of the BRZ which will perform very similarly in the shootout.

        As for posting 0-60, slalom, etc for these cars, it is not like this has not been covered by many sites that all have similar results. The info is readily available.

      • 0 avatar
        DeadWeight

        No, no, no…

        The new way is to ensure that, if one is a reviewer of a product, one’s opinion and assessment strictly conforms to those opinions and assessments that preceded yours.

        Conformity of thought = good

        Difference in any opinion = terroristy

        Subjective differences in opinion on tangible and hard to quantify factors are only warranted in small print, marked by an asterisk, with a three page disclaimer prefacing any subjective opinions are only to be considered if they conform to the reader’s confirmation biases.

      • 0 avatar
        ringomon

        Would you and Baruth willing to call people underemployed mama boy basement dwellers to their faces? So why’s it in the article? The tone was set by the articles. What did you expect?

        There is a growing diconnect between the content of the articles being presented, and how TTAC views themselves on these issues. …and I am just a dispasssionate observer.

        There’s what you say and what you do. No? If you want to be taken serious about cars, maybe you shouldn’t be throwing around unfounded insults in the content of the article.

        I have no opinions on the cars themselves, it could be completely accurate. I just don’t trust the writing anymore for the writer’s inability to leave their own precious egos out of it.

    • 0 avatar
      Nicholas Weaver

      The miata in TRACK DAY TRIM is not…

      The one they got was the power hardtop, which adds NOTHING to the track day behavior except for a slightly smaller tank and 70 lbs of mass.

      A cloth-top miata is right in (or even cheaper) in the price department: A stripped Miata is $23.5K. And the hardtop miata is only $27.5K.

      An R-Spec hyunda is $26.5K MSRP.

    • 0 avatar
      Detroit-Iron

      @ grzydj

      How much is that in real money? ;-)

    • 0 avatar
      John

      I’ve lived about half my life in Canada, and half in the States.
      Canadian prices are no equivalent to U.S.A. prices. With the prices controversy yesterday I looked up all three cars of cars.com – an internet car buying site, which I have used to buy one vehicle. They all were withing a few thousand dollars (I could get an FRS for example for under $24,00 – these prices are guaranteed).

      You know what I would REALLY like to see – a V-6 Accord or Camry fitted with a set of Brembos (SOMEBODY can surely do it!) tracked against these three other cars. Bed Mom’s grocery getter would smoke ‘em all!

    • 0 avatar
      Thill

      @grzydj

      What would posting stop watch lap times have changed? I think we all know the results:
      1. Gencoupe
      2. FR-S
      3. Miata

      Which is pretty much what the video and articles point out. Unless you think this method would have some profound revelation on Jack/TTAC and would suddenly give the FR-S first place. Because that is really the issue you have here is it not? That the FR-S was ranked last here? My advice? Stop visiting this site and only focus on the pro-FR-S rah, rah, rah, sites so you can feel good about your purchase. Some of us still like some objectivity. The Gencoupe came in second. You don’t see me grabbing pitchforks and demanding justice…

      I really thought Jack nailed it for me for all three cars. It was nice to have some honesty versus so many other sites who try to be politically correct and just give you fluff reviews for every car.

      Like when Motortrend said there is nothing to improve on the FR-S.. Really? Nothing? The tires? The torque? The interior?

      • 0 avatar
        Jack Baruth

        I think I’ve been fairly explicit about the fact that we shared the venue, and the vehicles, with AutoGuide.

        AutoGuide has far more budget than we do. They also had the vehicles and the facility for the lion’s share of the day. Our testing took place AROUND theirs. Any time they wanted the cars, we had to give them up. We also share video crews, which is why our video came out three weeks after theirs and uses footage of AutoGuide drivers instead of me.

        Stopwatch lap times aren’t worth doing when our sister publication has already done lap times and we published those laptimes in the first test.

        As for ringomon’s comment: “Would you and Baruth willing to call people underemployed mama boy basement dwellers to their faces?”

        I can’t speak for Derek, but I’ve been more than forthright to people many times in my life and have suffered penalties ranging from being thrown head-first into an operating band-saw to enjoying the hospitality of the county. Most recently, I had a journalist try to “put me in check” at the Chicago Auto Show with consequences that were outright hilarious… for me, anyway.

        @grzydj has been criticizing the site in general and me in particular for a long time now. I don’t know why. Maybe I dressed him down at a press day. Maybe I ran him off-track in a NASA race. Maybe I slept with his girlfriend, or his wife, or his mother, or some combination of two of the above. Maybe he hates the Betabrand Golden Hoodie(tm). I don’t know and I don’t care.

      • 0 avatar
        grzydj

        I was interested in an FR-S, but ended up with a Toyota Tacoma(!) instead. I’ve had fun with my previous WRX, but I needed something more practical for home improvements and to haul my stable of mountain bikes that haven’t been ridden enough lately.

        I’m not rallying for or against any of these cars, just the testing methods and lack of consistency and editorial tone in this review.

      • 0 avatar
        ringomon

        Right Jack. But these “underemployed” that you conjured up are nothing more than your own attempt to give yourself status against someone that would think differently than you. Not sure if you didn’t think you could make your case other wise.

        You are widely missing my point, which is not addressed by your (big surprise) bragging about your testicular fortitude to piss people off. The point is that in an article comparing some cars that you want to be taken seriously (which is the case as seen by Derek’s defense), starting out by calling the customer base of one of them widely as losers (based on what exactly I’m still not sure) gives you nothing left but your own inflated ego to stand on. How can I take the rest of it seriously?

        Willingness to throw insult bombs based on nothing is exactly what Derek is decrying, no? So why is that the frame for these articles?

      • 0 avatar
        spw

        Well hopefully before going to the track with FR-S/BRZ, you will not use its OEM tires, but set of track tires.

        I always wondered why would anyone test FR-S as a track car with Michelin Primacy tires. Reasons Michelins were selected as OEM tires are exactly the same reasons they are not good for the track.

        Or did I read too many reviews where FRS was king of the road, including Top Gear Speed Week where it beat any car at any price. Is it all the sham and Hyundai wins it all?

    • 0 avatar
      nrcote

      grzydj > The Miata is a staggering 10 grand more (in Canadian dollars eh) than the two other vehicles tested against it.
      —————————-

      If you refer to the GT, yes. The GS is cheaper. The base GX is about the same price as the other two, but doesn’t have the fancy roof. Since all three models have the same engine, the results would have been roughly the same.

      As I told you, if the FR-S has the lowest *MSRP* in your area and that’s what you want, get a FR-S. Which brings me to a few questions: Do you currently own a FR-S? Are you going to buy/lease one? Do you work for a Toyota/Scion dealer? Are you paid to hype the FR-S?

      If the answer to any of these questions is “yes”, that will explain many things. And if all answers are “no”, that will also explain many things. It’s a win-win, really.

  • avatar
    MrWhopee

    I think this is what’s referred to as “Damning with faint praise”. In the real world, though, I bet there are many other “intangibles” that would make people end up with the Hyundai, among others, Toyota dealer’s attitude and willingness to deal with Toyota’s (well Scion’s, but they’re pretty much the same, right) first “automotive superstar” in a long time. You’d think they won’t give you a deal on a Camry, wait until you ask about the FR-S. You’d be lucky if they allow you to test drive the thing.

    • 0 avatar
      SC5door

      Exactly why I bought a Korean car….the dealership experience.

      The Hyundai/KIA dealer let me drive what I wanted and even let me take a Optima Hybrid for a spin….their only Optima Hybrid even when he knew I wasn’t interested, it was out of curiosity. The Toyota dealer was rude and wanted to run “numbers” more than anything else.

      • 0 avatar
        Lynchenstein

        Our Hyundai dealer experience (Victoria, BC, Canada) was deplorable. The three sales staff were condescending, arrogant and particularly uninformed about the vehicles they are selling. We were looking at an Elantra for the mom-in-law.

        My wife won’t even consider a Hyundai/Kia anymore based on the rotten experience we had. Our Toyota dealer isn’t too bad, but our best experience was at the Honda guys next door.

  • avatar
    DeadWeight

    Cue the butt-hurt Hyundai Genesis Coupe fanbois who are going to take personal and emotional deep impact because you ripped on the Genesis and it didn’t finish first.

    Oh wait, just like the FR-S, I don’t think you ripped on it, and furthermore, Hyundai Genesis owners and admirers are probably highly unlikely to take offense at anything you did (or didn’t) write in this part of the review.

    Carry on.

    • 0 avatar
      JCraig

      Yeah this confirms the impression I got with the first review of all three. The Miata is most fun to drive (always has been, nothing new) and the Genesis is the best to live with. It’d be great if I could have both but I’d rather have the Genesis if I’m driving it to work every day.

      Disclaimer: I may currently own a Hyundai but this is something like the 12th car I’ve owned which has covered virturally every type of vehicle and automaker, Domestic, Japanese, European and now Korean.

    • 0 avatar
      stryker1

      As a former Genesis Owner, I will say this review surprised me with how positive it is. They must have significant improvement since the first generation in order to be considered nice on the inside.

    • 0 avatar
      DeadWeight

      Yes and yes, but how did I miss the caption to the photo above:

      “Images courtesy of Julie Hyde, who was mostly hired on account of her outstanding rack.”

      As a progressive male who views both genders as equals, I must criticize TTAC for not, solely in the interest of objective journalism, provide pictorial evidence of said “outstanding rack.”

      • 0 avatar
        Strippo

        All kidding aside, this sort of objectification of women is unfortunate. They have asses, too, you know.

      • 0 avatar

        Well since Jack is getting hammered for writing a subjective review without data, and since I’d need her permission to provide photographic evidence, subjectively let me just say that in person, Ms. Hyde cuts a fine figure.

      • 0 avatar
        GiddyHitch

        He did, hence the caption. Hint: it’s hanging off the back of the Miata with a camera strapped to it.

  • avatar
    Feds

    I’ll get to my Genny thoughts in a minute, but first thing’s first: Jack, if you are ever in need of someone who will go balls out on an Axl Rose impersonation, I am your guy.

    Passenger seat perspective: This was my least favorite car. It was noticeably faster, but you could definitely feel it fighting will all that mass and speed. Also, like just about every Hyundai I’ve been in recently: The interior looks fantastic at first glance, but more or less immediately begins to stop pleasing the eye.

    “Wicked! Gauges in the console! Oh, they are terribly cheap looking… Too bad”

    It came across as a knock off: lots of features to make it look expensive, all of them executed in a way to make it look cheap.

    It also suffered from the modern car “big ass dashboard and high/tiny greenhouse” more than the others seemed to.

    • 0 avatar
      JCraig

      Hater!!! j/k j/k

    • 0 avatar
      JCraig

      Well since I can’t edit:

      I was also going to ask if the interior quality is any worse than other mid $20k cars?

      I’ve been in a co-worker’s FR-S (which he bought after seeing it on a car carrier, had no idea what it was but thought it was pretty, and claims he paid over $30k for it – this was before I knew they’d even hit showrooms).The interior is super cheap plastic. I’ve been in plenty of mid-size cars in this range and cheapo plastics are everywhere. Even small cars can easily be priced up to this range…

      Considering the price/performance/feature factor I don’t expect a luxury interior.

      • 0 avatar
        Feds

        Context: The car I’ve owned the longest is a 2003 Protege5. It’s my benchmark for a “Good” interior. It’s easy to operate, and the things I touch most (steering wheel, shifter, seat, padded elbow rest on the door panel) are comfortable and good quality, and the rest of the stuff doesn’t call attention to itself.

        My issue with the genesis was not that it was better or worse than the group, more that the things that called attention to themselves (the centre gauges as an example) looked bad at close inspection (Fat needles, chintzy looking surrounds). this was the same feeling I got from the Veloster: Big shiny door pulls with horrible casting flash, and crumby paint on closer inspection.

        I said it before: I have no idea what the interior in the FRS or the MX5 looked like, mostly because they did their best to hide. The only thing I recall about the FRS was the touchscreen radio/navi deal, because those are fairly novel to me.

        It’s a personal opinion for me, and I understand that the pot of money to build a car is only so big, but if you’re going to add cost with a “special” feature, make it good, and squeeze the pennies back from the rear-seat guys, or the trunk liner guys. Something I’m not going to see/feel ever single time I’m in the car.

      • 0 avatar
        JCraig

        Feds – Thanks for the reply and explanation. I understand what you mean now about the details. Even in my Elantra, which one would expect to be low rent, it’s a mixed bag. I hate the gauge cluster so much that it nearly kept me from buying the car. Hyundai is getting the design right but needs to work on execution. I shared your thoughts when I had a new loaner Sonata for a week. At first I was blown away by the car (this was when it was still all new). After a few days I noticed how awful the plastic was on the lower dash…

        I have yet to check out the Gencoupe in person, but those three gauges look exactly like what they offered in the last Tiburon. Maybe they had some left over? ;)

        Edit: I’m quite familiar with the interior of your Protege, and agree that it is well done. Maybe the best in its class at the time, and better than the current Mazda3 and several other small cars today (is mentioning the Civic too obvious?)/

      • 0 avatar
        mattfarah

        No, it’s not any worse than other comparatively priced cars. There’s lots of plastic, but the seats are great and the shifter and wheel feel nice in your hands. The BRZ, for about $2,000 more, is noticeably nicer with its touch-screen system and better materials on the seats and doors, and in my opinion, is worth the extra money.

    • 0 avatar
      Thill

      I agree about the cheap gauages in the center console. At first glance they look slick, but in reality, I rarely look at them as they are not placed appropriately, and they are cheap to the touch. Aside from that though, I like the stitched leather looking dash, and the features of the car as a daily driver. For instance the digital readout for temp, radio, etc is easy to see and clear. The steering wheel audio and bluetooth controls constantly get used in daily driving vs the FR-S that does not have them on the steering wheel.

      Hyundai clearly had to make some trade-offs to keep the price down but the center stack gauges is a bad design decision.

      • 0 avatar
        Feds

        YOUR OPINION DIFFERS FROM MINE!!! PREPARE TO DIE!!!!

        But you make a good point: Everyone has different preferences, and different things that are important to them. I liked the balance of tradeoffs in the FRS better than the other 2 cars. The two guys with racing experience disagreed.

        Cars are an awful thing to have differing opinions on, because the cost leads to huge confirmation bias. Someone who says that the car you purchased is worse than the car you didn’t purchase is basically calling you an idiot, and telling you that you wasted 25 g’s. This is why passions get so heated.

  • avatar
    JMII

    I’m still trying to figure out how a Miata can cost more then other two vehicles in this comparison. Is the fabric top made from unicorn belly hair?

    In the real world torque wins, even with turbo lag I’ll always found the kick-in-the-pants and flat power curve of turbos very additive in daily driving. In fact when I got my NA 350Z I was worried I would miss it (after owing an Eclipse turbo and VW Passat), but the VQs torque output is pretty flat down low and peaks at 4,800. So as I said in yesterday’s post the FR-S downfall is its weak engine. To my eyes it certainly looks better then the Gen Coupe, the new front end helps but its just too busy overall.

    Thus I agree with this review: for your average person the Gen Coupe is best choice. If you are willing to do some work buying up aftermarket goodies I’m sure the FR-S can be improved to match. And if you want to ride with the wind in your hair and dart thru traffic the Miata is clear choice.

    • 0 avatar
      JMII

      Just adding… when I checked out the Gen Coupe before buying my used Z the thing that disappointed me the most: the trunk – its tiny. If the Gen Coupe was a hatchback my decision would have been much harder. I had no need for back seats (too small anyway) and have always found hatchbacks more practical in the real world for loading/unloading various sized items.

      • 0 avatar
        Vyk

        Wild. One of the reasons I rejected the 370Z in favor of the GenCoupe (which I ultimately didn’t end up buying, but it was a near thing) was the trunk space–the GC is 3.1 cubic feet larger than the 370Z. (Also 2.6 cu ft larger than the G37 Coupe, which surprised me.) Interesting that the 350Z is that much larger than the newer Z.

        Totally agreed on the hatchback aspect, though–I love them and wish they were more common. I know Hyundai focused on chassis rigidity, though, which might be part of the reason for a notch (along with the average American not caring). On a 3300lb car, I’ll certainly take all the rigidity I can get!

    • 0 avatar
      Nicholas Weaver

      The miata in base trim is cheaper.

      This one is a power hardtop miata. Which, unlike a $60K Mercedes or BMW power hard top, doesn’t eat trunk space and doesn’t add more than ~75 lbs. The power hardtop adds $2K in price, and doesn’t come on the base model Miata, but only the uplevel trims.

      • 0 avatar
        JMII

        N.W. – now I see the Miata is the power hardtop… that explains the price! They are still asking too much for that car I think.

        Vyk – the Z’s hatch area is smaller, but I found it way easier to load and more flexible. I had this same debate with someone else on this site regarding the G37 vs the Z. And my logic is since the seats don’t fold down long or odd shaped objects will not fit in these coupes, but they can slide right into my Z.

        I was just disappointed given the shape of the Gen Coupe because it looks like a hatch, but instead has a tiny deck lid which gives limited access to the trunk.

        As for the 350 vs 370Z, they moved the strut tower brace that everyone complains about, but I couldn’t afford a new 370 …and honestly liked the look of the older model a bit more anyway.

  • avatar
    Thill

    As someone who used to own the Miata and now owns a 2013 Gencoupe 2.0T manual, Jack, you 100% nailed this! Thank you. With three young kids and really little to no time to track cars much anymore, I was looking for something that had more power, torque, had a more luxurious interior and good amenities and a useable backseat when I do have to take the kids somewhere, the Gencoupe was my hands down winner.

    I agree with you on the pros and cars of the car. It is not perfect. It is not as nimble as the Miata or FR-S. I liked the gearbox on the FR-S and Miata more (Miata being my favorite). But, as you mention, the gearbox is not atrocious, and many of the issues can be overcome as you drive the car more and understand the nuances. The car is heavy. On the track that is a negative, but on the road, it is actually a positive IMHO as it has a smoother ride.

    The Gencoupe was not even on my radar when I started shopping. I drove it on a whim and loved it.

    Having spent some quality time behind the wheel of the FR-S I agree with your sentiment that if you put the 2.0T engine in the FR-S it would have been the best car. Although part of me still thinks the Miata would still be the most fun car to drive of the three still.

    Thanks for “keepin it real” Jack, and watch out for those FR-S owners with pitchforks…

    • 0 avatar
      mike978

      Thill – I have three young kids too, can you fit all yours in the back of the Genesis or is it really a 2 kid back seat (with boosters)?

      • 0 avatar
        Thill

        Two. Our other vehicle is a Honda Odyssey :)

        But when I have to shuffle the two oldest around the Gencoupe gets the job done.

      • 0 avatar
        mike978

        Thanks, I just looked at the Hyundai site and saw the large hump in the middle of the rear seat. Even Hyundai call it a 4 seater, which seems accurate.

      • 0 avatar
        Thill

        mike, I don’t think there are any RWD sports coupes that can safetly seat three kids.

        I believe the MazdaSpeed3 and Focus ST would :)

      • 0 avatar
        laphoneuser

        I’m interested in this as well. I have two young kids, and will be in the market soon for a new car. We’ve got an Odyssey, and my wife and I are considering a “fun” car to replace my aging Jetta, but something that the kids can fit in as well.

      • 0 avatar
        Thill

        laphoneuser

        My two older kids (7 and 4) fit in their booseter seats with no problems in the Gencoupe. In fact they always ask to take it vs the minivan. If you are over 5’6″ you have to lean forward a little so your head does not hit the back windshield.

        The other nice thing about the 2013 Gencoupe is the lever on the back of the front seats that the kids can pull up which slide the seat down and forward for easy access. My 4 year old girl gets in and out of the car with zero assistance.

        Nice touch.

    • 0 avatar
      bd2

      The GenCoupe is heavy relative to the FR-S/BRZ and the MX-5 but that’s b/c it’s so much BIGGER.

      And it’s not like that’s going to change that much in the future, as the GC will continue to be built on a shortened Genesis platform, a platform which its prime purpose is to underpin a 4-door sedan.

      The next generation GC will be going upmarket in order to go head to head with the Infiniti G – and Hyundai will be using an updated version of the platform to also underpin its new RWD compact sedan, of which the next gen GC will be partnered with.

      While comparisons with the FR-S/BRZ and MX-5 are fun to see (and great for the grist mill), in size and weight, the GC shares a lot more with the likes of the Infiniti G.

  • avatar
    jco

    it seems like, to me, a V6 mustang would be a stronger car than the Hyundai. with a similar weight but more power. but then you’re going into a car with a lot of existential ‘weight’ (having to be a mustang ‘driver’, because a mustang is not in any way anonymous). the Genesis may be a competent car but it just doesn’t stir up any sort of desire for me.

    i think including the Miata in this test really muddied the waters (along with some seriously angry blood). it’s almost a ringer in this situation, and that seems like it did exactly that to the test. it’s a roadster. it has two less seats, a different mission, and I really do think it has a (mostly) different group of buyers. and i bet you’d have less hate swirling about had the FR-S just merely lost out to one car.

    you didn’t hold back, you gave your honest opinion about the car despite your open bias for it. anyone who reads this site should have expected nothing less than that from you. i feel like there was a strong sense of disappointment regarding the Toyota, and i couldn’t agree more that it should have a revvy twincam inline Toyota 4 under the hood rather than what seems to be an unremarkable boxer. i don’t agree that this necessarily means it will be a fragile motor, but i see what you’re getting at. it is to a certain extent a victim of it’s own hype, however I’m hoping that it will succeed despite that and bring about a RWD resurgence. but i think mostly that there are a whole lot of people who wished that the FR-S was going to be a re-issue of Toyota’s RWD past. and so far it doesn’t seem to be that either. you just put a name to it.

    • 0 avatar

      For the record, we tried to get a V6 Mustang, through Ford as well as various rental counters, but none were available.

    • 0 avatar
      Thill

      I am pretty confident the V6 Mustang (with the performance pack)would have had the best lap times. What would have been interesting would be to hear who the two cars compare in terms of driver feel and handling.

      I know for me when I test drove the Hyundai and Ford back to back, I am used to Japanese sports cars and just could not adjust to the big hood of the car that you see when you look out the front windsheild. The Mustang just felt so much bigger. But it also felt the fastest and I did like the gearbox and clutch. As someone who had not driven a Mustang in years, I was impressed with the car.

  • avatar
    Charlie84

    Jack, what tires were used in this comparison test? Given your budget, I wouldn’t at all blame you for using the stock rubber. But, if you did use the stockers, how do you think that affected the final rankings?

    • 0 avatar
      Jack Baruth

      Stock rubber all the way ’round.

      Nobody really brought killer tires to the test. I’m pretty sure there was a M+S stamp on all three cars, particularly since these were Canadian-market vehicles.

      Put Hoosiers on all of ‘em and the overall finishing order would likely stay the same. The Genesis would eat the Hohos well before the FR-S and WAYYYY before the fabulously-easy-on-tires Miata, of course :)

      • 0 avatar
        Thill

        Jack, the RSPEC models come with camber bolts that allow you to adjust camber of the cars. Did you try adjusting them at all to see what affect it had on handling?

      • 0 avatar
        Jack Baruth

        The Canadian cars don’t have that feature.

        A little camber never hurts, as we will see in Part Zero.

  • avatar
    mkirk

    I read the previous bit which discussed reliability issues in the Subaru motor of the FR-S. Is this in fact an issue? If I want a great handling and slow car with dubious reliability seems like I should just spring for an RX-8 and enjoy a suspension tuned by the greek god of handling while making daily offerings to the Greek God of Apex Seals.

  • avatar
    ajla

    So, what about 3.8 versus 2.0T? A 2.0T R-spec with an aftermarket exhaust would be pretty close in price to a 3.8 R-spec.

    I know in the video you said “I was wrong” about the V6 being the one to have, but is that from a on-track perspective or an overall perspective?

    • 0 avatar
      Brendan McAleer

      The 3.8 seems very lacking in low-end power to me (at least on the street). As Jack pointed out in his Mustang review, the Genesis didn’t get its ponies from the same breeder as Ford. It was also reasonably thirsty in the real world when I had it.

      Have not driven the turbo car, but even with lag (spontaneous laughter from every 930 owner) it should have better grunt – as pointed out.

      • 0 avatar
        bd2

        In the most recent shoot-out Motor Trend did, Randy Pobst got times of 89.12s with the GC 2.0T and 89.09s with the V6 Mustang on their 1.8 mile course (91.15s for the FR-S).

        In a previous pony car comparison with the GC, the 3.8 GC (before power-boost with the MCE) had the quicker 0-60 time than the V6 Mustang – 5.8s vs. 6.2s (both with a 6 spd AT).

  • avatar
    cyberc9000

    It’s nice to see somebody not falling for the FR-S hype, for once. The MX-5 is the king of the I4/RWD/affordable realm, and you have to bring your A-game to challenge it. Toyabaru didn’t.

    • 0 avatar
      Feds

      But the FRS is the best H-4/RWD/afforable car… In the world.

      (sorry, the pedantry is strong in this one)

    • 0 avatar
      DeadWeight

      Wait just a minute.

      If you review the FR-S and commend Toybaru for building such a competent handling car only by sacrificing some raw power, and place it first in any comparison, you’re not falling for the hype, but acknowledging the infinite wisdom and greatness of all things Toybaru vs the competition.

      If you review it and lament the lack of raw power, and place it anywhere but first in any comparison, especially if that justification is based at least in part on the lack of raw power (but based on other, hard to quantify, subjective things, also), but still commend Toybaru for building such a competent handling car, and while having not much of anything else negative to say (except that the steering, while not bad, could be better, as could the stick; couldn’t they always), you’re a know-nothing who hath not realize the infinite wisdom pool of Toybaru and all who dip their wick in its fountain.

      See the difference?

      On top of that, Jeremy Clarkson, supreme elder on the automotive knowledge of all things inner sanctum, has nothing but glowing accolades to describe the Toybaru, going so far as to say he’d rather drive it than just about anything else including purpose built vehicles with 600+ bhp.

      So there. /end of story & debate, bitches.

  • avatar
    APaGttH

    crunch crunch crunch

    good popcorn

    crunch crunch crunch

  • avatar
    CurseWord

    Apparently several commenters are able to write, but not read. Allow me to re-post the lap times Jack cited in his FR-S piece:

    “AutoGuide’s time-trial driver Dave Pratte entered what he calls “attack mode”, recording a lap time of 1:26.2 for the FR-S and a 1:25.0 for the Genesis 2.0t R-Spec. These times were so outrageously good — up to seven seconds better than what other publications had recorded under similar conditions — we didn’t bother to try to beat them.”

    Not sure how you guys missed that “informational evidence” but there it is. And, I know TTAC usually puts “the cars were supplied by X and a dry hand job was given by Y-tho not to fruition-and punch was served in Dixie cups found in the garbage.” but does it REALLY make you question the laws of gravity if it isn’t there? Obviously you’ve all been readers of this site for a while, long enough to assume a 3-car shootout probably involves press cars. If they were private loaners, Jack would have found a humorous way to put that in his piece.

    I’d add that if you’ve been a fan of this site for any amount of time, you know there isn’t an bribery or “Mazda influence” going on. To imply otherwise is ridiculous. They were press cars, he liked the Mazda more, Autogiude posted lap times. Done.

    • 0 avatar
      fatalexception04

      Don’t need “mazda influence” here. It seems that anytime a mazda wins a comparo people get all “up in arms”. Yeah the fr-s is a good car that drives well as evidenced in this comparison. I don’t think its that “sent from the gods” vehicle the media make it, but good. I’ve sat in one and thought the interior was cheapo (not design per se, but feel) compared to competitors like the genesis, miata and rx-8 (yes discontinued, but still plenty new ones on lots)

      Its just the fact is that companies can come close, but still haven’t out mazda mazda.

      I know people say they’d be fine with mazda folding, but really who would that serve? It wouldn’t serve those that love driving.

      • 0 avatar
        Thill

        I have owned lots of Mazda’s and I agree, it would be a shame if they folded. I am a little nervous as the next MX-5 is going to be a joint effort with Fiat…

        I think the problem is that SOME FR-S owners are sensitive about the lack of hp/torque issue so they cling to the “yeah, but it is the best drivers car” argument and they don’t want to hear that the MX-5 is actually the better drivers car. Where does that leave them?

      • 0 avatar
        CurseWord

        I currently own a Miata (NA), spent a week in an FR-S, and recently drove a BRZ at length. I’ve also driven the Genesis on the track. The Genesis motor is exactly as Jack says: superior. The brakes were also good and it’s on-track manners were quite good. I like everything about it except the exterior. I prefer the look of the BRZ/FR-S, and its lightness, but it does need about 50 more HP to touch all my buttons right.

        I haven’t driven a new Miata, but the BRZ/FR-S is just trying to be what the MX-5 has been for decades. The fact that it comes close, has a little more room, and a hart top (my preference) makes it a good car. But to argue against the on-track analysis of Jack and several pro drivers is a futile battle. If people prefer the FR-S, that’s fine, one is entitled to one’s opinion. But the people here spitting hate, claiming corp. influence, whining that a lack of lap times makes the whole piece null and void is just ridiculous.

      • 0 avatar
        mkirk

        Problem is that if Mazda ever built an MX5 Coupe I would expect it to handle better than the convertible, not almost as good.

  • avatar
    st1100boy

    What, no pictures of Ms. Hyde?

  • avatar
    sportyaccordy

    TTAC, you guys have made it… you are doling out opinions readers who I am certain haven’t driven any of these cars deem impossible to come to without financial compensation from manufacturers.

    This is not a time to clean house… its a time to pop bottles and celebrate.

  • avatar
    bludragon

    Excellent video and series, looking forward to reading the next two pieces. Please ignore the haters and continue to provide entertainment and information combined for the rest of us.

  • avatar
    blackbolt

    This review has generated the funniest commentary ever. For the first time the commentary was more entertaining than the review. Good stuff. TTAC is a real gift to us who love cars, perfect its not. Nothing is.

  • avatar

    I like the Genesis coupe, but I don’t buy 2 door cars anymore. I always wanted to drive a Miata and enjoy the balanced splendour everyone gushes about; yet alas I’m too big.

  • avatar
    Kafka

    1. This is a qualitative track performance review (The quantitative part is handled by the AutiGuide driver and more consistent)

    2. This is about behaviour at the TRACK – for HPDE days. Cars are pushed to the limit to the best of the drivers, which in this case, are both qualified racer.

    3. The final opinion is that its a compromise between a slow, light track weapon vs a fast, heavy GT – which I agree. Why so butt hurt???

    4. Finally, replace Genesis with 350Z and FR-S with Rx-8, you will get the same results – except that RX-8 will be better than 350Z since it is not that much slower than 350Z at a technical track.

    5. Mazda has most soul among Japanese car companies, bar none!

  • avatar
    Ryoku75

    I always thought the original “Grinning Crossfire” look on the Genesis was a bit silly, but this new Nissan GTR copy Velostar front end is a bit too weird for me.

    • 0 avatar
      bd2

      Don’t like the oversize grill on the refreshed Genesis, but Hyundai had been doing the whole oversized hexagonal grill shape since 2005-6 on their concept design (actually better done on the concepts).

  • avatar
    Dave M.

    I can’t believe you didn’t test the cupholders. What a bullshit endeavor of little import else wise.

    /writing for TTAC is much like my job. T H A N K L E S S.
    //thanks for all your hard work

  • avatar
    mkirk

    Funny that the Miata is lauded due to its light weight. Most of us Miata Folks consider the current NC gen Miata to be too big and too heavy. Having said that though I am sure it would smoke my 90 around the track and I could care less.

    Having said that, wonder how the 2.0t out of the Genesis would swap under a firs gen Miata’s hood. The 1.6 is pushing 200k and spent a chunk of it’s life boosted. Wonder if the whold driveline is doable. hmm.

  • avatar
    Junebug

    Stacy David did a v-8 swap in a Miata and it looked AWESOME! Now if I just had his shop, tools, brains, and a lot of money.

    • 0 avatar
      JuniperBug

      There are readily available sources for parts to do a V-8 Miata swap, and even at least one company that does turn-key cars, Flyin’ Miata. Expect to spend around $35k for that, which gets you 400+ hp, <2600 lbs with great weight balance, and still resembles your gay uncle's convertible. There are lots of reasons why this is an idiotic waste of money, but the reasons why it's awesome are more compelling.

  • avatar

    Regretfully, TTAC editors have used language in these comments which should not be used by any commenter on TTAC, editor or not.

    On behalf of TTAC, I apologize for these uncalled-for outbursts.

    The policy of civilized discourse remains in effect.

    Anybody may freely voice an opinion on TTAC. Nobody may call names. Please note that this policy pertains to comments only, not to articles.


Recent Comments

New Car Research

Get a Free Dealer Quote

Staff

  • Contributing Writers

  • Jack Baruth, United States
  • Brendan McAleer, Canada
  • Marcelo De Vasconcellos, Brazil
  • Vojta Dobes, Czech Republic
  • Matthias Gasnier, Australia
  • W. Christian 'Mental' Ward, Abu Dhabi
  • Mark Stevenson, Canada
  • Cameron Aubernon, United States
  • J Emerson, United States