By on December 14, 2021

cami assembly factory

Unvaccinated workers from General Motors’ CAMI Assembly Plant have been removed from the facility and forced into unpaid leave. The automaker had a deadline set for December 12th to have all employees vaccinated, with Unifor previously having urged the company to postpone the date. The Western world has seen a surge of citizens protesting vaccine mandates this year, with Canadian unions conducting more than a few of their own. Though several organizers have said they’re operating independently due to a shared belief that Unifor was offering insufficient support to members and was effectively siding with automakers. 

“Whether you want to get vaccinated or you don’t want to get vaccinated, this should just be a choice, not only for just the auto sector, but for every human being,” said Sebastian Giorgi, a member of Unifor Local 1285 who organized a rally in November.

Despite there being a deluge of protests between August and December, General Motors has adhered to its deadline of December 12th. From now on, automotive workers will need to have proof of vaccination or be sent home — something more than a few people learned about first hand on Monday.

While we don’t have an official tally, Mike Van Boekel (Unifor chairperson for the Ingersoll, Ontario, automotive facility) told Automotive News that he assumed there were at least 100 employees from CAMI that weren’t vaccinated last week.

From Automotive News:

Though the vaccine mandate went forward unaltered for unvaccinated staff, the union secured “quite a few” changes from GM, including a last-minute reprieve for members who have received only one dose of a COVID-19 vaccine, Van Boekel told members in a Dec. 9 update. With the changes, workers with a single dose will be allowed to continue working, but will eventually need to prove they are fully vaccinated, he said.

When introduced in October, GM’s policy required personnel entering any of the automaker’s Canadian facilities to be fully vaccinated by Dec. 12.

GM Canada would not comment on the details of its policy for CAMI or its wider network of Canadian facilities, but said the “overwhelming majority” of the company’s workers have met the requirements.

“For those who are not compliant, GM Canada is working with them individually to develop a reasonable plan to become fully vaccinated, to secure an approved exemption, or to make other employment arrangements,” the company told Automotive News Canada in an email.

As union victories go, that’s about as pathetic as negotiating an extra shake at the urinal for unpaid bathroom brakes. But since Unifor members are now openly claiming the union seems to represent little more than a buffer between automakers and staff, I suppose we shouldn’t be surprised here. Van Boekel even goes on to endorse the automaker’s plan later in his interview.

“Don’t get me wrong, I do think the vaccination policy is the correct plan, but there could have been other options that they used,” he said. Then he criticized the “double standard” of GM not enacting a similar policy for thousands of hourly workers in the United States while adding “[That’s] likely the biggest slap in the face,” he added.

GM Canada will begin doing random spot checks on employees to ensure their vaccination status is up to date starting in January. Van Boekel said that it’s the union’s assumption that the company will also begin trying to eliminate the Local 88 members that were told to stay home from CAMI, noting that there wouldn’t be much Unifor could do to help. Employees caught falsifying their documents or lying to GM will be terminated right away, however.

“If you falsified your answer, you are going to be terminated and I do not have much of an answer for you in terms of a grievance. So, make sure your answers are correct,” Van Boekel the weasel explained, adding that there would be little hope of Canadian law helping them.

Stellantis’ plans on enforcing similar rules for Canada-based employees starting December 17th, whereas Ford workers are required to be vaccinated by January 3rd.

We’ve certainly come a long way from “two weeks to slow the spread.” But you should all know my bias on the issue by now, as I’ve been obnoxiously vocal on the matter. This is a grotesque overreach in authority by governments and employers seem more than content to comply. Van Boekel may not be aware of this, but the reason he’s so annoyed that America didn’t follow Canada down this authoritarian rabbit hole was due to states filing legal challenges to similar rules enacted by the Biden administration. The Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals then ruled against the plan, citing “grave statutory and constitutional” issues.

[Image: General Motors]

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185 Comments on “GM Canada Tells Unvaccinated Workers to Stay Home, Union Unhelpful...”


  • avatar
    Rick T.

    It’s gonna get really interesting when Omicron/future variants which evade the vaccine fully arrive and IF future government guidance considers the unboosted unvaccinated. I consider one of these certain and the other only a possibility.

    • 0 avatar
      Matt Posky

      Ditto. Fauci said that the definition of what constitutes fully vaccinated will probably need to change last week during an interview with CNN: “I don’t see that changing tomorrow or next week, but certainly if you want to talk about what optimal protection is, I don’t think anybody would argue that optimal protection is going to be with a third shot.”

      Executives from Pfizer said basically the same thing at roughly the same time, with Mikael Dolsten stating that three doses should be the level of what constitutes true vaccination for the comparatively tepid omicron strain. No clue what the CDC will do, however. Plenty of researchers have been publishing papers that poke holes in the general efficacy of vaccines (particularly in relation to omicron) lately and the CDC been extremely noncommittal in supporting any one policy in regard to the new strain. But it has also been broadly supportive of vaccinations and I kind of doubt that’ll change. What will that mean for US-based automakers? Who knows. But things seem to be taking shape in Canada.

      • 0 avatar
        Lou_BC

        “(particularly in relation to omicron)” South African epidemiologists have stated that part of the reason omicron has been less lethal is vaccinations. Currently it appears that omicron is much more contagious but considerably less deadly.

    • 0 avatar
      EBFlex

      “t’s gonna get really interesting when Omicron/future variants which evade the vaccine fully arrive and IF future government guidance considers the unboosted unvaccinated. I consider one of these certain and the other only a possibility.”

      We are already there. With the so called delta variant, a very large portion of the country had been vaxxed. Yet cases numbers rose dramatically.

      The latest variant of the China virus evades the vaccine very easily. Again, look at the numbers.

      The vaccines do NOTHING to curb the spread. All they do is minimize symptoms in the person who has taken the experimental and rushed vaccine. But the installed administration including the, frankly, evil elf Fauci want you to believe that the vaccines are the key to stopping the spread like the masks that, in fact, don’t stop the spread.

      This is not about public health, it’s about fear and control.

      • 0 avatar
        JD-Shifty

        you do realize the unvaccinated are doing most of the dying….but that’s none of my business…

        • 0 avatar
          EBFlex

          “you do realize the unvaccinated are doing most of the dying….but that’s none of my business…”

          And? Who cares? Let them die, that’s their choice. It’s not illegal to die.

          Everyone knows the risks. If people want to risk it, that’s their choice. What business is it of yours?

          The issue is that we are being forced to take vaccines to “stop the spread”. That is a lie. When you compel people to do something based on a lit, people become very skeptical and rightly so.

          • 0 avatar
            tomLU86

            I’ve read that TOTAL death rates of ALL causes are up MARKEDLY in Holland and Britain. Is that “fake news”? Why now? Perhaps some unfortunate side effect of the (previously) untested gene therapy?

            Why is the FDA so eager to seal Pfizer’s records for 50 years? (My answer is CYA).

            Why is the use of Ivermectin to treat patients so frowned upon? Because, if it had been tried early on, it would be a “treatment”. And the “Emergency Use Authorization” can only be “authorized” when there is “no treatment”. See how that works?

            At this point now, more and more Americans know people who have been vaccine-injured. Or worse. It’s not just the dozen people who testified in Senator Johnson’s Nov 04 hearing.

            So, you can play russian roulette and risk your health/life and take the shots (and you will be taking lots of them) to keep your job; OR you can risk your career and not gamble with your health.

            Two bad choices. Your job or your life. The answer should be self-explanatory.

            GM, and every business, should be forced to pay big lawsuits to everyone who get fired because they would not risk their life.

            As for Pfizer and Big Pharma, all the medical complications of the vaccine-injured should set them up for a steady stream or revenue for drugs to treat the conditions, WHERE TREATABLE, for the unlucky people who develop life-long illnesses which require permanent meds.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            “Why is the use of Ivermectin to treat patients so frowned upon?”

            2 reasons:

            1. It doesn’t work.

            2. Any licensed medical professional cannot prescribe medication approved only for animals.

          • 0 avatar
            EBFlex

            ““Why is the use of Ivermectin to treat patients so frowned upon?”

            2 reasons:

            1. It doesn’t work.

            2. Any licensed medical professional cannot prescribe medication approved only for animals.”

            Get back to us when you get the basic facts of Ivermectin correct.

            Do you ridicule people for taking warfarin? A poison for rodents?

          • 0 avatar
            Arthur Dailey

            @EB the issue is that if they overwhelm the healthcare system, then they are preventing other people from getting their required treatment. So based on your logic, you are advocating that those who are not vaccinated should be triaged out of the healthcare system.

      • 0 avatar
        SoCalMikester

        its about a bunch of whiny babies not getting a free safe proven vax, because FREEDUMBs mean they would rather run the risk of dying or taking up a bed to someone more worthy

        • 0 avatar
          tomLU86

          @Lou_BC Maybe in Canada.

          In the US, a physician my prescribe any legally available drug or medication for any condition he/she deems it appropriate.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            “In the US, a physician my prescribe any legally available drug or medication for any condition he/she deems it appropriate.”

            Even though it’s a veterinary medication?

            Scary!

      • 0 avatar
        Ol Shel

        False.

        Vaccinated people do far less incubating of the virus. They spread it less. They reduce the amount of variants. They also lessen the strain on our for-profit healthcare system.

        But keep spreading politically-based lies. Because it feels good.

        • 0 avatar
          EBFlex

          “False.

          Vaccinated people do far less incubating of the virus. They spread it less. They reduce the amount of variants. They also lessen the strain on our for-profit healthcare system.

          But keep spreading politically-based lies. Because it feels good.”

          Nothing political about basic facts. If the vaccines worked we wouldn’t be seeing the massive surges in cases that we are. Also, vaccines CREATE variants. Variants are created so it can evade efforts to kill it. Try again.

          • 0 avatar
            Arthur Dailey

            @EB the massive surge in hospitalization and ICU admission is among the unvaccinated. That is basic arithmetic.

        • 0 avatar
          slavuta

          Vaxxed people help virus to mutate. It is trying to get around of the defenses.

    • 0 avatar
      ToolGuy

      Here’s where I am today for me and my immediate family:
      • Vaccine – YES (Moderna preferred, Pfizer maybe, J&J no)
      • Booster – No, not right now, not without more data

      Vaccines should be *part* of the plan. The Plan should also include social distancing, improved ventilation, and real masks worn the right way where closer contact is required. (The Ideal Plan would also address risk factors and promote improved natural human immune response – for example, let seniors get some sunlight occasionally.)

      Instead, vaccines are turning into the ONLY plan, and we are riding that horse pretty hard with all the booster talk. [My booster position might differ for high-risk individuals.]

      Bonus: If you as an individual decide not to get vaccinated, you need an alternative plan for yourself personally, and you need to stick with that plan consistently.

      • 0 avatar
        EBFlex

        ToolGuy,

        That is reasonable and makes sense. How do you feel about mandates?

        As to the mask point, the only mask that works is a N95. The other surgical masks and cloth masks are completely ineffective.

        The boosters are proving to be completely ineffective against the new new variant.

        • 0 avatar
          Arthur Dailey

          @Eb: That is also false. As they say “it is better to light a candle than to curse the darkness”.

          Masks work two ways, reducing how much of the virus an infected person ‘spreads’ into the atmosphere and reducing the amount of virus in the atmosphere that an uninfected person inhales. Cloth and ‘surgical’ style masks work better at the former than the latter. N95’s and KN95’s are superior regarding the latter.

          Below are actual scientific, peer reviewed tests of masks.

          “The near-field velocity measurements indicate that the forward momentum of breath exhaled through the nose is reduced significantly and redirected when the subject is equipped with a mask. Furthermore, this attenuation of the forward momentum increases with the filtration efficiency of the mask material.”

          https://aip.scitation.org/doi/10.1063/5.0057100

          https://aip.scitation.org/doi/10.1063/5.0035414

          https://aip.scitation.org/doi/10.1063/5.0050133

          https://aip.scitation.org/doi/10.1063/5.0016018

          https://aip.scitation.org/doi/10.1063/5.0035072

      • 0 avatar
        SPPPP

        It seems like Omicron variant isn’t terrible, which is good news. I doubt it will be the last variant that circulates.

        When the pandemic started in late 2019, one of the things that jumped out to me was that it’s a coronavirus. And there were no successful vaccines for coronaviruses, specifically because coronaviruses mutate so quickly. IE, why “the cure for the common cold” doesn’t exist.

        I am not necessarily against a booster shot, but it seems clear to me that a 3rd shot will not be the last one that we are asked to get. Nor the 4th, nor the 5th …. and so on. All signs point to this being something that your doctor will pressure you to get every year until you die.

        This article from NPR had some interesting stuff: https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/12/14/1063947940/vaccine-protection-vs-omicron-infection-may-drop-to-30-but-does-cut-severe-disea

        I chuckled at the bit buried deep in the article, “Scientists are starting to think that for many people, getting infected is almost like an extra dose of the vaccine. The infection really helps the immune system learn how to fight off COVID-19 — similar to the way the vaccine does.”

        “Starting to think” that infection might confer immunity? LOL … seems like basic virology that everyone was too afraid to acknowledge because they didn’t want to be called anti-vax.

        Another interesting article indicated that it may be possible that previous exposure to the “old” coronaviruses may have given a segment of the population partial protection against COVID-19.

        I am hopeful that, between vaccines, behavior adjustments, and natural immunity developing over time, we can get close to “normal” within a year or two.

        • 0 avatar
          EBFlex

          “I am not necessarily against a booster shot, but it seems clear to me that a 3rd shot will not be the last one that we are asked to get. Nor the 4th, nor the 5th …. and so on. All signs point to this being something that your doctor will pressure you to get every year until you die.”

          Exactly. This will be no different than the flu “vaccine”.

          I’d like to take a minute to thank China for releasing this on the world. We are so stupid as a country that we are fighting about masks (that don’t work) and vaccines (that don’t stop the spread) rather than focusing our energy on punishing China for this deliberate act.

        • 0 avatar
          Luke42

          @SPPPP:
          > “Starting to think” that infection might confer
          > immunity? LOL … seems like basic virology that
          > everyone was too afraid to acknowledge because
          > they didn’t want to be called anti-vax.

          You’re projecting your own biases onto what the scientists are saying.

          We always know that the *survivors* of infection have better immunity.

          The question is: do you want to get that immunity the easy way, or the hard way?

          The vaccine is the easy way.

          There is no question that the first two shots are the easy way compared to getting COVID.

          The question is: If you’re twice vaccinated and already have substantial immunity to COVID due to the first two vaccine shots, is getting a 3rd dose of the vaccine still the easy way? The headline answer is yes, but they did have a debate to make sure.

          So, yes, getting the 3rd dose is still the easy way to get immunity.

          So, do you want COVID immunity the easy way or the hard way?

          • 0 avatar
            SPPPP

            My point, Luke, was that proof of prior infection was basically treated as meaningless for over a year. And now “scientists are starting to think”… etc. I think that’s inaccurate reporting.

            Boosters needed? Maybe, maybe not. Consider that, like the flu, the vaccines are generally 1 step behind whatever variant circulates in a given year. (Which seems to be true by definition, since a given variant wouldn’t circulate very much if the vaccine stopped it.)

            I am thinking of chicken pox, for example. We have created a chicken pox problem in our elders (shingles) by reducing the chicken pox problem in our youth. Now the elders don’t get occasional immunity boosts by natural exposure to the virus.

            COVID and other coronaviruses have been and are circulating, and most cases are mild in the vaccinated. There may come a point where the massive machinery of vaccine production, distribution, tracking and certification just isn’t necessary or cost-effective anymore for the *population at large*. Not saying that specific at-risk groups can’t benefit.

      • 0 avatar
        dantes_inferno

        >Vaccines should be *part* of the plan. The Plan should also include social distancing, improved ventilation, and real masks worn the right way where closer contact is required. (The Ideal Plan would also address risk factors and promote improved natural human immune response – for example, let seniors get some sunlight occasionally.)

        Somehow, eating healthy (staying away from junk food), exercise and maintaining a strong immune system isn’t considered part of the equation.

        After all, if people were healthy, Big Pharma would lose money or become extinct altogether. We can’t have that now, can we?

        To paraphrase Chris Rock: “The money’s not in the cure, it’s in the medicine..”

        Make no mistake – this has little to do with health and a lot to do with generating an endless stream of revenue (for every variant which subsides, there’s many more in the queue ready to make a public appearance. By design.)

  • avatar
    Tim Healey

    Just want to pop in here to remind you all to keep it civil.

    • 0 avatar
      FreedMike

      I’ve found that a lot of the incivility that follows these Posky articles has been pointed at him, versus the facts of the article. Unfortunate, but this has to be said: he invites on himself. First, there’s usually some kind of red-meat, reach-for-the-smelling-salts verbal bomb like “grotesque overreach.” And when people call him on said verbal bombs, there’s the inevitable “if you disagree with me you’re a closet Stalinist” nonsense he responds with. Predictably, things get messy after that.

      Back in the day, when I was writing editorials, I fell into the same trap Posky has. I found the best way to stimulate real conversation was to keep the vitriol and emotion out of it, even if I was feeling vitriolic and emotional. Otherwise, the conversation became about me, when it should have been the topic at hand. I’d suggest a similar approach here.

      • 0 avatar
        Matt Posky

        So I’m in the wrong for a subset of angry commenters slinging cruel insults because they don’t agree with my opinions? Sounds like victim blaming. I also don’t recall ever saying “if you disagree with me you’re a closet Stalinist.” But I have said that people need to grow up and realize that discussions are sometimes messy, issues can be complicated, and opinions are allowed to differ.

        I will absolutely support the notion that the comments shouldn’t be about me, however, and nothing would make me happier than seeing commenters stick to the topic of an article. Nobody has to agree with me that vaccine mandates are stupid and make automakers look bad any more than they have to support the claim that Ford’s best vehicle of all time is the Transit van.

        • 0 avatar
          FreedMike

          @Matt:
          In your chosen profession, cruel insults are part of the deal. They come with your paycheck. Wish I could say that’s not so, but it is. Hell, I reviewed the car I bought, explained why I bought it with an automatic transmission, and some clown’s only response was “pathetic automatic scum.” Well, I love you too, fella. And I didn’t get paid for the review.

          But that’s part of the game. When you write stuff – even stuff as innocuous as “hey, here’s my car-buying experience, and the car I bought, and the reasons I bought it,” people say stupid, insulting crap.

          The problem, as I see it, is that you’ve been slinging the insults back. To wit: I’ve seen any number of your comments that boil down to the argument that someone who disagrees with you is pro-authoritarian, or anti-liberty. You’re telling them your worldview is superior, and theirs inferior. Well, that’s an insult too. My gut response is to give you the middle finger salute, and the gut response is magnified over the Internet. That’s exactly what people are doing.

          The net result is that you’re (probably unwittingly) making these threads about putting your worldview out and then defending it, when it should be about the views of the posters.

          So, with respect, as a former editor, I have two pieces of advice for you:

          1) Dial down the vitriol a bit. It’s possible to make an argument without the obvious red-meat stuff like “grotesque overreach.” How about “bad idea” instead? That should lower the temperature a bit.

          2) Take yourself out of it. Avoid responding to posters unless they’re asking questions. Let them argue it out among themselves. Your job is to stimulate discussion, not convince people that your worldview is the correct one.

          I’d also add that some people aren’t worth responding to, like our friend from the Politburo below. I stopped talking to him a long time ago, and I’m a crapload happier now.

          For the record, I think your concerns about privacy and rights are on target. I think the difference is that I take a bit more moderate view than you do. When you stand on rights 1,000%, it’s easy to become over-invested in the idea that the rights themselves are the point, when the real point of rights is to make sure people do the right thing.

          • 0 avatar
            EBFlex

            “In your chosen profession, cruel insults are part of the deal. ”

            Put another way:

            “Police officers that are shot and killed don’t deserve sympathy because that’s their chosen profession and that’s part of the deal”

        • 0 avatar
          SoCalMikester

          all vax mandates? or just covid? bring back that polio, thanks to denyers that know its not THEIR sperm or eggs makin lil corkys… gotta be the vax

          • 0 avatar
            EBFlex

            “all vax mandates? or just covid? bring back that polio, thanks to denyers that know its not THEIR sperm or eggs makin lil corkys… gotta be the vax”

            Just COVID. These experimental vaccines have no place being mandated. Do you know how long it took to develop the polio vaccine? Of course you don’t. If you did you wouldnt make such a ridiculous comparison. Here some facts for your brain to chew on:

            1894 First US polio epidemic
            1908 polio virus identified
            *1935 early vaccine trials*
            1950 first trials on children
            1952 polio cases surge
            *1955 vaccine suspended*
            1960 first effective vaccine licensed
            1963 a vaccine for all three types is developed.

            Almost 70 years from the first epidemic to successful vaccines.

            COVID “vaccines” were developed by criminal drug companies in 9 months and then they wanted to keep the results and data from development and trials secret for over 50 years.

            But yes keep concluding that the covid and polio vaccines are analogous.

          • 0 avatar
            dal20402

            We have given COVID vaccines to 4 BILLION people worldwide. That’s half the world population. If there were significant side effects, not only would we know it, we’d have hospitals full of side effect patients. Instead, we still have hospitals full of COVID patients, 99% of them unvaccinated.

        • 0 avatar
          slavuta

          Don’t make FreedMike the FCC commissar

    • 0 avatar
      indi500fan

      bathroom “brake”

      Is that a pun I don’t understand or just a mistake that passes spell check?

    • 0 avatar
      EBFlex

      “Just want to pop in here to remind you all to keep it civil.”

      FreedMike/LouBC and Co hes talking to you…

  • avatar
    Lou_BC

    “This is a grotesque overreach in authority by governments and employers”

    I’m sure you asked American and Canadian Constitutional scholars before making this comment?

    I read an article where a reporter DID talk to Canadian Constitutional Scholars/legal experts on this sort of topic. You cannot vaccinate someone against their will i.e. hold them down and forcibly inject them. You can however, legally restrict public access. People are free to fight it in the courts or through their trade unions.
    Each province can chose to enforce federal mandates as they see fit. Alberta which is one of the most conservative provinces has had a very poor vaccine take rate and a poor per capita death rate.

    Unions are in a bind in most jurisdictions because their role is to represent the workforce but are restricted to the limits of their collective agreements. In healthcare in British Columbia, we’ve seen staff suspended and those that are still unvaccinated are now being fired. These cases are working their way through the grievance process so it’s too early to say how they’ll turn out. I’m betting that the “dismissals” will stand.

    • 0 avatar
      Matt Posky

      All kinds of ridiculous things are legal around the world. If Canada wants to be a country that trades liberty for social control, that’s its business. Ditto for Australia. If they want to build those camps and create an underclass of dissidents in their new two-tiered society, I cannot vote to stop it.

      But I’m not going to give them a round of applause for doing so and would hate myself if I didn’t actively work to oppose those trends.

      • 0 avatar
        Lou_BC

        “All kinds of ridiculous things are legal around the world.”

        Like unfettered gun access? Laws that allow citizens to sue anyone remotely related to abortions after 6 weeks?

        You are now the final arbiter of what constitutes a valid law?

        “trades liberty for social control”

        We live in societies and as such, we are social beings. That means having to balance personal choice/whims versus that of the social group that we exist within. Perhaps you need to spend some time studying ethics. That’s the process of balancing equal but conflicting rights.

        “I cannot vote to stop it”

        No? Why not? You have the option of being politically active.

        You chose instead to use TTAC as your limited sounding board. In that respect, I chose to question your hyperbole.

        If you think there are flaws in the law, post your evidence not opinions.

        • 0 avatar
          Daniel J

          Suing citizens have nothing to do with “legal” and “illegal” as that is the realm of civil court and civil law.

          Being able to protect one’s self and family from doing something illegal to them or their property is a human right. Therefore, obtaining methods or tools that is equal to or that exceeds the method of which those who wish to do you or your family harm is a human right.

          I do agree Matt uses this platform as a sounding board. I have no problem with an editorial, with his name on it, stating of what he believes is government over-reach when it comes to the United States.

          I think the context of global situations and global affairs, I think such things can only be discussed in the context of human rights and human affairs.

          For example, I’d never say that how certain middle eastern countries treat their women is “government over-reach”. I would say it is a human rights issue and a right to autonomy issue.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            @Daniel J – good post. Suing citizens shifts lawmakers and court responsibilities. It’s no longer in the realm of criminal court and criminal burden of proof. It is intended to “pass the buck”. It does end up altering human behavior which is the intent.

            “Being able to protect one’s self and family from doing something illegal to them or their property is a human right.”
            That depends on who you talk to or the country you live in. One can counter a threat to one’s life or one’s family with an equal or higher counterforce but typically not for property. The right to a firearm isn’t widely seen as a basic fundamental human right. Background checks and licensing doesn’t violate anyone’s human rights.

      • 0 avatar
        JD-Shifty

        so you’re kind of like Tucker Carlson. Actually vaxxed but talking millions of people into not getting getting vaccinated…for ratings…

        • 0 avatar
          bullnuke

          Actually folks should discuss medical issues with their personal physician and not take on faith what politicians, the Federal Government, media programs, and entertainment figures push to influence folks to do. It’s actually pretty easy and less confusing to ask, “Doc? What are my options and what is your medical opinion knowing my medical history?”. One of the last places I’d seek medical advice or medical opinion would be TTAC.

        • 0 avatar
          EBFlex

          “so you’re kind of like Tucker Carlson. Actually vaxxed but talking millions of people into not getting getting vaccinated…for ratings…”

          Completely false but nice straw man.

      • 0 avatar
        Ol Shel

        Please point to a nation that provides complete liberty, or at least more liberty than you find in the western nations, and tell me how well they’re doing.

        I will wait.

  • avatar
    FreedMike

    “Grotesque overreach…”

    Whatever. Either you think that employers should be able to impose basic workplace safety standards, or you don’t. Either you think that employers should care about their employees getting sick at work, or you don’t. Clearly the author has landed in the latter camp on both questions.

    This drum’s been beaten so many times…what’s the point?

    • 0 avatar
      Tim Healey

      Personally, I don’t agree with Matt — I think mandates are OK because the disease spreads from person to person and your choice affects others — but Matt is entitled to his opinion, and it’s clearly written as such.

      I think TTAC, as a staff and group of contributors, is a bit split on mandates. Like the rest of the world.

      • 0 avatar
        FreedMike

        I think it boils down to this: employers don’t want their employees getting this while they’re on company premises. Leave out the “it’s the right thing to do” angle – it’s business. How long before a lawyer figures out how to sue a company over this? I mean, if someone can try to bilk McDonalds because someone spilled hot coffee on herself, the “poor Joe caught COVID at work and now his wife’s a widow” suit doesn’t seem too farfetched.

        And I can hear people right now saying, “but, but, but…the suit may not succeed.” And it might not. But suits still cost money to defend, and in this climate, this kind of publicity is toxic. Again, it’s business.

        If I were an employer, I’d give employees two choices: 1) get vaccinated, or 2) give me a notarized, signed and dated statement that you will hold the company harmless if you catch COVID on company premises.

        And I bet that choice two STILL wouldn’t mollify the anti-vax types.

        • 0 avatar
          slavuta

          How is getting vaccinated guarantee that you don’t get COVID?

          • 0 avatar
            mcs

            “How is getting vaccinated guarantee that you don’t get COVID?”

            It’s not. Just like bundling up in warm clothes in Yakutia does not guarantee you won’t get frostbite when you go outside in winter.

          • 0 avatar
            28-Cars-Later

            Not a very good analogy because there are many different types of clothes to perform the same function, both old and new.

        • 0 avatar
          Daniel J

          FreedMike,

          I think many large corporations really don’t care that much about their employees getting COVID. I know for *fact* a few certain large companies have privately admitted as such. I know, I know, there are a billion corporations.

          What I do think is that many corporations are under the pressure of governments and the media. and it’s just easy to comply to their demands.

          As a libertarian, I have no issue with a private company wanting vaccinations only under 2 conditions:

          1. They aren’t coerced into doing so by other companies or governments
          2. They take full responsibility of an employee getting a vaccination for any side effects for the life of an employee.

        • 0 avatar
          tomLU86

          So, if an employee is vaccinated, and gets COVID, and can prove he/she got it at work, they can sue.

          But the unvaxxed can not?

          No.

          But you bring up a good point. As an employer, it would be prudent for the employer to require ALL employees to sign a statement that by working there, they understand there is as risk of COVID, and they will not hold the company liable.

          I think that’s a fair concession from the employee. “Sign a statement or leave”.

          It’s not unfair, like the current “take a dangerous injection, or leave”

          • 0 avatar
            FreedMike

            @daniel:

            Good point about the employer taking responsibility. Maybe offer some paid leave if the employee has a bad reaction. Fair enough, I’d say.

            But I think my point stands – it’s in the business’ best interest to protect itself. A libertarian should certainly appreciate that. And if I’m taking a libertarian tack, I’d say that any employee that feels his or her employer has rules that are unfair, then it’s incumbent on the employee to find a different job, versus force changes on it from the outside. Free Will, as those famous libertarians from Canada known as “Rush”, would say.

      • 0 avatar
        slavuta

        This means that government in the future can mandate abortion, sterilization, or other nasty things. Check history in Sweden

        • 0 avatar
          Lou_BC

          @Slavuta – poor set of examples but then again, you do want to stir the pot.

          • 0 avatar
            slavuta

            Sweden did it. So, how poor it is? Eugenics – American invention. Nazis did it.

            This is exactly the situation I had today. I was having training on misinformation. In one of the quiz questions the correct answer for “misinformation” was – “Pepsi adds addictive drugs to drinks so it sells better”

            Oh, yea?? Not like Coke did not do it before. Of course, not to sell it better. But it did contain cocaina. You never know what these people add to it. Even sugar is an addictive drug that sells better.

      • 0 avatar
        Arthur Dailey

        The ‘split’ that you mention is primarily illusionary. There is a relatively small number of militant anti-vaxxers in most of the world who get an inordinate amount of publicity.

        Check the percentage of vaccinated to unvaccinated in the general population. And the number of workers who have been forced into unpaid leave because they refuse to be vaccinated is generally less than 5% of the workforce.

      • 0 avatar
        EBFlex

        “Personally, I don’t agree with Matt — I think mandates are OK because the disease spreads from person to person and your choice affects others ”

        You realize that the vaxx does, IN NO WAY, curb the spread right?

        Do you even follow the daily case data? My state is 71% vaxxed and yet our new case data is nearing what it was a year ago when we had mask mandates and far less vaccinated. It is exponentially higher than early 2020 when we did NOT have vaccines and did NOT have a mask mandate.

        So the mandates make no sense. Clearly they do not stop the spread.

        • 0 avatar
          Astigmatism

          “You realize that the vaxx does, IN NO WAY, curb the spread right?”

          Of course it does. The vaccine makes a person less likely to catch Covid in the first place, and less likely to spread it if they do catch it. The effectiveness of the vaccines at curbing spread has declined as the virus has mutated – so it’s more effective at curbing the spread of alpha than delta, and much less effective at curbing omicron than delta – which is why the pharma companies are working on omicron-specific boosters. But saying that “the vaxx does, IN NO WAY, curb the spread” is just being unserious.

          • 0 avatar
            EBFlex

            No…you’re completely wrong.

            The daily case data proves it. We are almost 80% with one does and over 60% with two doses. And yet daily cases are MUCH higher than when nobody had vaccines in the first 11 months of 2020.

            All the vaccines do is minimize symptoms. Nothing more.

          • 0 avatar
            mcs

            @ebflex: Here’s the data from your state, Minnesota. The case rate and death rate are much lower for vaccinated individuals.

            https://www.health.state.mn.us/diseases/coronavirus/stats/vbt.html

          • 0 avatar
            EBFlex

            “@ebflex: Here’s the data from your state, Minnesota. The case rate and death rate are much lower for vaccinated individuals.

            https://www.health.state.mn.us/diseases/coronavirus/stats/vbt.html”

            That’s not my state but ok.

            And what does that have to do with stopping the thread? Can you read? I stated that the experimental and rushed “vaccine” minimizes symptoms in those that receive it. But that doesn’t stop the spread as we are being told. If it did, we wouldn’t have the insanely high new case numbers we are seeing in virtually all areas of the country.

      • 0 avatar
        tomLU86

        You think a mandate for a drug which was released relatively untested, which has been shown to NOT prevent the disease, and which has been been linked to some illness, some of it serious, some of it leading to death, is OK to treat a condition which can be serious, and even fatal, but it not for over 99% of the afflicted.

  • avatar
    slavuta

    How can you get “vaccinated” by a substance that is not a vaccine??

    • 0 avatar
      slavuta

      Has nothing to do with the dictionary. But you are right. If you read CDC papers before August [26?] 2021, you would need to get immunity in order to have your substance called a “vaccine”. But after that date, it is enough to get a protection. And that was done for one purpose – to be able to call these substances as vaccines. While they do not give any immunity. They don’t invoke bodily immune responses. They invoke generation of certain proteins that can stop other certain proteins. If that can’t work, or if the protein in your body gets detached from the hook it is on, you are in trouble.

      I read a paper that was put together by real scientists. And their conclusion that by definition, non of the so called “vaccines” that float around the world are really true vaccines.

      • 0 avatar
        jkross22

        Matt’s right. There was a recent redefinition of the word vaccine.

        • 0 avatar
          Arthur Dailey

          And here is the truth behind the word ‘vaccine’. All quoted from the link at the bottom.

          2013 definition of VACCINE: “a preparation of killed microorganisms, living attenuated organisms, or living fully virulent organisms that is administered to produce or artificially increase immunity to a particular disease”.

          2021 definition of VACCINE: “a preparation or immunotherapy that is used to stimulate the body’s immune response against noninfectious substances, agents, or diseases”.

          “When a person’s immune system responds to a vaccine, the immune system is given advanced knowledge of what a pathogen looks like. That way, when the pathogen lands on or in someone, the immune system can clear it as soon as possible.

          For most diseases, this means no signs and symptoms of the disease, even when there is an infection. This was known of the first vaccine, the one against smallpox, and the latest vaccines against the novel coronavirus causing the disease known as COVID-19. So, no the definition of a vaccine, how it works or what it does has not changed.”

          https://historyofvaccines.blog/2021/10/02/the-meaning-of-vaccine-is-the-same-as-it-was-in-1796-regardless-of-online-conspiracy-theories/

          • 0 avatar
            ollicat

            Man, just one of the many ways the left is changing the definitions over every word out there.

          • 0 avatar
            ollicat

            Man, just one of the many ways the left is changing the definitions over every word out there.

          • 0 avatar
            slavuta

            this history of vaccines is not impartial site. This is vaccine activism. Karie Youngdahl is a puppet of big pharma

          • 0 avatar
            sirwired

            > 2013 definition of VACCINE: “a preparation of killed microorganisms, living attenuated organisms, or living fully virulent organisms that is administered to produce or artificially increase immunity to a particular disease”.

            Except that hasn’t been true for *decades*. The Tetanus and Diptheria vaccines are toxoid-based vaccines; they have no part of the original organism. And the HPV vaccine is a Recombinant drug (produced by yeast growing in vats); the virus itself isn’t involved at all.

            And there are multiple types of immunity; the toxoid vaccines do not prevent infection. And the Shingles vaccine just keeps your existing varicella infection from flaring up; it doesn’t eliminate the virus from your body. Sterilizing immunity is not the only valid kind.

          • 0 avatar
            slavuta

            @sirwired – interesting!

        • 0 avatar
          28-Cars-Later

          This is correct… and quite Orwellian.

          But if your product doesn’t fit the definition of what its supposed to be, and you have enough pull, I guess just altering the English language to fit your product’s abilities is the way to go. Nothing at all to see there, move along.

          • 0 avatar
            slavuta

            I’ve read 1984 (again) not long ago. And I approve this message. Even Bolsheviks did not go that far. Because this is medicine. In politics, they might removed a page or two from Lenin’s book. But I don’t remember this level of Orwellism.

      • 0 avatar
        sirwired

        There are multiple types of immunity. Sterilizing immunity is only one. For instance, the Shingles Vaccine keeps you from getting shingles. It does not clear the latent Varicella infection from your bloodstream.

        A substance that provokes the generation of antibodies against a pathogen is a vaccine. There’s nothing not-a-vaccine about using mRNA as an intermediary step on the way to provoking those antibodies.

        I don’t know who wrote this “paper”, but even if your “definition” changed over time? So what? Either it works or it doesn’t. Semantic arguments don’t actually change anything. (And given how the critically-sick and dying are unvaccinated well out of proportion of their share of the population, that’s certainly strong evidence it’s working pretty well.)

        • 0 avatar
          slavuta

          Don’t want to go into deep argument here. But about unvaccinated, not everything as simple as you might want to think. Research “excess deaths in Europe”. And check this https://alexberenson.substack.com/p/vaccinated-english-adults-under-60

          Check this https://www.naturalnews.com/2021-11-29-german-epidemiologist-slams-pandemic-of-unvaccinated-narrative.html

          Its the age, babe. I’ve read Italian stats. Average vaccinated person in one study lives 4 years longer than unvaccinated. Great! Then I learned the age. 84 and 80.
          My personal conclusion, with very conservative approach, if you are younger than 57, there is nothing you need to do for COVID unless you have too many pounds, heart disease or diabetes, etc.

        • 0 avatar
          jkross22

          Sirwired,

          Thanks for sharing what you just typed. As a soon-to-be-recipient of said shingles vaccine, it’s helpful to understand exactly why/how this vaccine works versus others.

          BTW, the numbers out of Denmark show that the vaccinated are 5x more likely to spread Omicron covid than the unvaccinated. It’s in the pie graph and unless you speak Danish, you’ll need a translator.

          https://www.dr.dk/nyheder/seneste/966-nye-tilfaelde-af-omikron-herhjemme-siden-i-gaar-varianten-kan-blive-den

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            “the numbers out of Denmark show that the vaccinated are 5x more likely to spread Omicron covid than the unvaccinated”

            I doubt it. How much Omicron do they have?

    • 0 avatar
      Matt Posky

      Depends on the dictionary you’re reading.

    • 0 avatar
      sirwired

      In what way are the COVID vaccines not vaccines? You get dosed, your body produces antibodies, the likelihood you’ll be sick or dead drops.

      Sure sounds like a vaccine to me, just like every other vaccine since Edward Jenner started giving people cowpox on purpose.

      • 0 avatar
        jkross22

        sir, what other vaccine has become so politicized that any criticism must be shut down and questions asked about it are to be scrubbed and the inquisitors removed from the discussion?

        Pretty sure tetanus vaccines don’t elicit this response. Shingles either. No on TDAP and MMR, too.

  • avatar
    Astigmatism

    Why would there be a default assumption that the union should take the side of the small minority of unvaccinated employees? The union represents _all_ of its members, including the large majority who are vaccinated and who probably don’t want their health to be put at risk by the antivaxx holdouts.

    I’m not in a union, but if I were, I’d be furious if I found that my union was trying to make it easier for other workers to risk my health and safety.

    • 0 avatar
      slavuta

      You really don’t understand the medicine.
      This year with “vaccines” more people died vs 2020 when there were no vaccines. Why?

      • 0 avatar
        Tim Healey

        Because of a few reasons. One, the virus didn’t really spread until March 2020, while it’s been around for all of 2021. Two, still many unvaccinated people, some by choice, and some because they can’t get the vaccine. Which leads to point three — access to the vaccine hasn’t been equal throughout the world.

        Also, there was the impact of the Delta variant, especially in populous India, at a time that few people were vaccinated.

        • 0 avatar
          slavuta

          Tim,
          see how quickly you jumped to answer this even though – you don’t know. We don’t know.
          Virus has been around since 2019. Tests were 30% accurate. Dead people were written as COVID deaths die to existence of the positive test, even if they died of something else. Cuomo sent tens of thousands into nursing homes where they should not be at the time. etc. We don’t know the numbers. CDC has change the criteria in March 2020. And what is the number of variants? Do you know? Or you only know officially identified ones? We don’t know true number of variants. Omnicron is which letter in Greek alphabet? Where all the other guys?

          • 0 avatar
            Arthur Dailey

            @Slavuta: Prove what you said. Your comments have been refuted multiple times by statistics. But then Russia is an economic pygmy largely because its citizens still accepting misinformation.

          • 0 avatar
            SCE to AUX

            @slavuta: I see that *you* know.

            Typical strawman arguments from you – casting doubt on statistics and definitions instantly disqualifies everyone else’s comment.

            Your approach is transparent, and your obedience to Godwin’s Law is fantastically predictable.

          • 0 avatar
            slavuta

            @Arthur Dailey
            what are you talking about? Seems every time you write something it is not just misinformation but actually – sabotage .

          • 0 avatar
            Arthur Dailey

            @Slavuta: if what I post is viewed as sabotaging your posts then you are freely admitting that you are part of a campaign to spread misinformation and undermine the USA.

            As the definition of sabotage is: “To intentionally prevent the success of a plan or action.”

          • 0 avatar
            slavuta

            @Arthur Dailey

            There are only 2 things – Truth and otherwise. You always sabotaging truth.
            In this case, I don’t know the count of the dead. And the truth is – nobody knows thanks to our Orwellian government.

            What did you say? – ” Russia is an economic pygmy”
            1. I don’t care , I don’t live there.
            2. How does it help you?
            3. When America has 20T GDP and 30T debt vs Russia 2T GDP and 200B debt, who has the money in the end?
            4. pygmy, giant.. Show me other countries that do better. Ok, US, China, Japan (big trouble), Germany. What? Canada has a little more absolute GDP but by PPP Russia rips it apart. How many nuclear submarines did Canada commissioned in 2021? Ok, that’s all I need to know – same as Ukraine. Wonderful.

          • 0 avatar
            Arthur Dailey

            Slavuta now bragging about how many nuclear submarines Russia has commissioned. A typical Soviet response to keep their population oppressed. Reminds me of the SCTV sketch in which a Soviet television program focuses on ‘how many American states can fit inside Mother Russia’.

          • 0 avatar
            slavuta

            Dailey

            Lesson for you. Even if you don’t like Russia, you should still respect your opponent. Or nose will be bloody. Yes, Russia has a way bigger schtick over Canada. 1 Submarine can wipe Canada out. And I am sorry that Canada only has 4 diesel subs. Sorry.

            And you also a totally confused man. You still talking about some “russian commissars” even though today, commissars exist in EU. Do you know Euro-Commission? This is were commissars work. And they do work as commissars.

            Please get up to date on information. Don’t fall behind.

        • 0 avatar
          EBFlex

          “Because of a few reasons. One, the virus didn’t really spread until March 2020, while it’s been around for all of 2021.”

          Wow you have really drank the Koolaid.

          The China virus was here in 2019. Get with it Tim. Stop spewing fake news from CNN and PMSNBC

          • 0 avatar
            slavuta

            EBF,

            really. People were dying of mysterious flu in 2019. And in early Feb 2020 we were warned to be careful at work. And in March we were sent to WFH

    • 0 avatar
      FreedMike

      More to the point, the rule breakers are basically screwing with the company’s well being.

      • 0 avatar
        Astigmatism

        And their fellow employees’ well-being. Unions want a bigger share of the pie for their members; they don’t want to throw the pie on the floor.

      • 0 avatar
        jkross22

        Questions no one has answers to, but many here remain convinced they know:

        How does me getting vaccinated protect you? When the vaccine wears off in the 6 weeks – 6 months timeframe, at what point are the newly unvaccinated people again a threat to vaccinated people? When the vaccinated person doesn’t receive the booster, are they no longer vaccinated?

        How much more effective are N95 masks than cloth masks than paper masks? Is the mask I got at the Gap in a pack of 3 as effective as an n95 mask? If the n95 mask is more effective, why isn’t the government giving them out at every post office?

        Are those who have developed natural immunity as a result of being exposed to Cov more or less capable of spreading covid compared to someone who has been vaccinated? How much longer does natural immunity last and does it wane at the same alarming clip that vaccines wane?

        Reasonable questions that deserve answers, not guesses and not authorities gaslighting us with bs excuses or delays in answering these questions. “I don’t know, so get the jab” is no longer an acceptable answer to any of this.

        • 0 avatar
          Matt Posky

          @jkross22 I would love to see any politician or public health official seriously address these questions.

          Seems like something that should be talked over with the public at length before we start forcing people to do things and stripping them of their livelihood. Coercion is not consent.

          • 0 avatar
            slavuta

            jkross22 and Matt Posky

            “any politician”? Then they are in Russia

            In Russia the new Federal law allows implementation of the requirement of proof of vaccination OR prove of antibodies. No counting how many anti-bodies. Just their existence. And also – it is up to regions to implement or not of this new law. Not a federal mandate – down to local level.

        • 0 avatar
          Lou_BC

          @jkross22 –

          “How much more effective are N95 masks than cloth masks than paper masks? Is the mask I got at the Gap in a pack of 3 as effective as an n95 mask? If the N95 mask is more effective, why isn’t the government giving them out at every post office?”

          If one is looking at just personal protection in a highly contaminated environment then you should be wearing a “Fit tested” N95. There are different N95 standards. Some provide splash protection and some do not.

          Standard face masks used in a hospital environment have differing degrees of protection. I wear a standard mask that also provides splash protection. It isn’t supposed to be for a high risk/high exposure setting. Standard masks are used in operating rooms not N95’s. A typical patient in an operating room theatre has a 1 – 3% infection rate. Standard face masks are highly effective at preventing the wearer from spreading their won bugs.

        • 0 avatar
          Astigmatism

          “How does me getting vaccinated protect you?”

          By making you less likely to contract the virus in the first place, and shorten the time in which you’re able to spread it if you do contract the virus.

          “When the vaccine wears off in the 6 weeks – 6 months timeframe, at what point are the newly unvaccinated people again a threat to vaccinated people? When the vaccinated person doesn’t receive the booster, are they no longer vaccinated?”

          There’s no single date on which you are suddenly no longer vaccinated. The efficacy of the vaccine declines over time – just as a DTAP is less effective after a couple of years. There’s a reason kids have to get that one five times.

          “How much more effective are N95 masks than cloth masks than paper masks?”

          Considerably. There are a bunch of studies on exactly this. Here are links to a couple of them:
          https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-72798-7
          https://aip.scitation.org/doi/10.1063/5.0057100

          “Are those who have developed natural immunity as a result of being exposed to Cov more or less capable of spreading covid compared to someone who has been vaccinated? How much longer does natural immunity last and does it wane at the same alarming clip that vaccines wane?”

          Studies have gone both ways on this. A much-publicized Israeli study suggested that recovered Covid patients had stronger immunity than people who received two doses of the Pfizer vaccine; an American study found the opposite. Moreover, we don’t actually know how to tell whether someone who previously had Covid developed sufficient immune response to protect against it in the future, so there’s no test we can administer that says that a recovered Covid patient is currently immune.

          “Reasonable questions that deserve answers, not guesses and not authorities gaslighting us with bs excuses or delays in answering these questions.”

          Many of these questions have answers; your ignoring the answers isn’t the authorities’ fault. But the fact that we don’t know everything about a rapidly evolving situation isn’t “gaslighting” and it isn’t a “bs excuse,” it’s just how the world works.

          • 0 avatar
            jkross22

            astigmatism,

            Companies are ignoring natural immunity. Google announced today that anyone not vaccinated with cov vaccine will be fired.

            What happened to follow the science? Aren’t companies like Google ignoring the science? Isn’t it odd that we don’t have effective antibody tests considering we’re 2+ years into the Covid era?

            Again, more questions met with silence, or according to Fauci, we’re looking into that.

            A pandemic is occurring and a significant health leader consistently provides non-answers to a central question.

            But good news on the Merck Covid pill. It’s 30% effective and will cost over $800 per dosage. Public funded the research on that one.

            Are we ready to push back yet?

        • 0 avatar
          FreedMike

          @jkross:
          “How does me getting vaccinated protect you?”

          Since this is about companies requiring vaccines, let’s put it in that context. And the answer is simple: companies invest TONS of money in their employees, and they want a return, which they can’t get if the employee is gone for two months in the ICU laid up with COVID. Vaccination makes that a remote possibility.

          It’s a business decision.

          • 0 avatar
            28-Cars-Later

            Dated thinking, the social contract of old is broken and the corporatocracy really does not care about the cannon fodder. Some were coerced and others fell in line to demonstrate what good little fascists they were, and the bottom line will suffer for all of them.

    • 0 avatar
      Lou_BC

      @Astigmatism – union executives, shop stewards etc. are elected to represent their members. They must adhere to the union constitution and the collective agreement with their employer. If the dismissals follow the contract then the union doesn’t have much power. They are obligated to represent it’s workers whether or not there’s a valid grievance. All they can do in this case is make sure due process is followed. It isn’t really much different than a lawyer representing a defendant in a criminal case.

      • 0 avatar
        Astigmatism

        That’s exactly the point: they’re elected to represent their members, including protecting the interests of those members, even when it’s other members that they need to be protected from. If a small number of members are endangering the large majority of members, it stands to reason that the union would (or at least should) try to protect the large majority.

        • 0 avatar
          jkross22

          astigmatism, Vaccinated people spread covid. Unvaccinated people spread covid.

          • 0 avatar
            dal20402

            Unvaccinated people spread COVID many times faster than vaccinated ones. This is like saying “A Civic accelerates, and a Chiron accelerates, so they’re the same.”

          • 0 avatar
            jkross22

            Dal, that’s not accurate.

          • 0 avatar
            dal20402

            It is.

            The “everyone spreads it” talking point seems to be relying on the fact that, when a breakthrough infection occurs in a vaccinated person, then the infected person spreads similarly to an infected, unvaccinated person. But breakthrough infections in vaccinated people are far less likely than infections in unvaccinated people, and, when they occur, the period of infectivity is much shorter. Among the whole population, a vaccinated person is far less likely to spread COVID than an unvaccinated one.

          • 0 avatar
            jkross22

            Dal, Hence the nature of the jam we’re in. Data is ignored (from Israel and the UK) regarding effectiveness of natural immunity vs vaccinations.

            In this case, you’re choosing to believe something that the UK has already shown to be incorrect. I’m choosing to believe their medical institutions over ours for a variety of reasons, most of which are self evident to me.

            In Denmark, their recent data is showing the vaccinated are spreading covid at a rate 5x faster than the unvaccinated.

            https://www.dr.dk/nyheder/seneste/966-nye-tilfaelde-af-omikron-herhjemme-siden-i-gaar-varianten-kan-blive-den

            It’s in the pie chart as you scroll down. Use translate to see the title “Omicron infected by vaccination status”

            Who knows why that is happening. Doesn’t make sense to me, but there’s the data.

            I’m glad that the vaccines have prevented for some the very worst of the symptoms from occurring in at risk populations. But they don’t prevent the spreading of covid, and they have a problem with lasting very long and they’re not very durable when new variants come along.

          • 0 avatar
            Astigmatism

            That data does not show that “the vaccinated are spreading covid at a rate 5x faster than the unvaccinated.” It shows that the large majority of people with Covid are vaccinated, in a population where the large majority of people are vaccinated. There’s nothing in the data about the R0 of vaccinated vs. unvaccinated people.

  • avatar
    schmitt trigger

    With respect to vaccinations… I believe we are way beyond the point of “a bit split” or “have different opinions”.

    Across countries, cities, companies, organizations, heck even across close family members, the rift has become as wide and deep as Valles Marineris.

  • avatar
    kcflyer

    So are Canadians still pretending like Sleepy Joe that being vaccinated means you cannot get or spread covid? In NY our new idiot governor believes that nonsense and no one in the state media ever calls her on it. I got vaccinated. To protect me. I don’t care what other people choose. It should be their choice. My only regret in this whole forced crises is not buying Pfizer stock last year. I’m sure the pharma industry will push for shots every six months for ever.

  • avatar
    slavuta

    UK to remove all countries from COVID travel red list on Wednesday

  • avatar
    Crosley

    The vaccine is so effective…the people that have gotten the vaccine are still scared sh!tless of getting Covid.

    FWIW, (I’m just a guy on the internet) I’m pro vax and got the Covid vaccine (Pfizer) and I have had heart issues from it. I guess I’m in the demo that no one talks about, weird heart palpitations I never had before. Truly scary and I was very dismissive of the naysayers.

    I would not have gotten it if I could choose again, especially since I know SO MANY vaccinated people that still got Covid. And spread it. Those 90%+ effective numbers we know were BS.

    If I was high risk, I’d get the vaccine, otherwise, I’d wait it out if you can. This nonsense is never going to end until people throw kick these bureaucrats to the curb. It’s going to be like the flu and I’m not going to get a new booster every year. Fortunately, I own my own business.

    • 0 avatar
      FreedMike

      Well, yeah, COVID is scary even if you’re vaccinated. Even if I caught it and had no symptoms, it’d cause huge disruptions in my life that I don’t want to deal with. That’s scary. But I’d be a lot more scared without it.

      Nothing is 100% effective against you getting sick with this. But these vaccines ARE effective at keeping you healthier than you’d have been without it. That’s proven.

      • 0 avatar
        mcs

        @Freedmike: It’s sort of like when I’ve crashed on my bike and I’m sliding along the pavement. The asphalt wearing away at whatever protective layer I’m wearing as I slide along the pavement. If it was bare skin, I’d be losing flesh for the entire slide, but, since I’m wearing something to protect me, I either won’t be injured or the skin to asphalt direct contact time will only be a few feet. Swearing next time to get armor that might last the entire slide for next time.

        Sure, wearing armor isn’t a guarantee against road rash, but it can reduce it. Vaccines are like that too.

        • 0 avatar
          FreedMike

          @mcs:
          The anti-vax argument is like saying, “hey, you can’t guarantee me 100% that I’ll walk away from a car crash if I’m wearing a seat belt. Besides, if I’m wearing one when I hit a wall doing 60, the belt will injure me. So…F*CK YOU, I ain’t wearing one. ‘Murica!!!”

          (And, oh yeah…if my injuries from my crash test dummy stunt end up way worse than they would have been, I’m still gonna show up to a hospital and demand treatment, and your insurance premiums will have to cover me. ‘Murica…FUCK YEAH!!!)

          It’s almost to that point.

    • 0 avatar
      mcs

      Sorry to hear you had a bad reaction. Sounds like myocarditis. It’s an inflammation of myocardium (heart muscle) that affects the electrical system of the heart. There has been about a thousand cases and it’s associated with both of the mrna vaccines. From what I understand, people have recovered from it. I don’t have the numbers in front of me. It can occur with other drugs and viral infections as well.

      In one study of 2.3 million vaccine recipients, the incidence was 5.8 cases per 1 million. All cases resolved themselves.

    • 0 avatar
      SCE to AUX

      “It’s going to be like the flu”

      Not quite, for a couple reasons:

      1. Covid is far more deadly. “Flu” doesn’t kill 500k people annually in the US.

      2. Annual flu vaccines are a guessing game for the drug mfrs, which explains their spotty effectiveness. Covid vaccine developers knew exactly what to target once the virus was isolated, which is why the vaccines appeared so quickly.

      The 90% effectivity was true when the vaccines came out. The actual figure can be debated, but it’s not zero. Death rates in hospitals still support a high figure. I’d rather head into a blizzard with a windbreaker than nothing at all.

      • 0 avatar
        Crosley

        The “flu” doesn’t kill 500k every year because we have vaccines and have a long time to develop therapeutic treatments. So when you see flu deaths of 150k, that is with all of this “helping” those numbers. Imagine flu deaths without a vaccine or effectove treatments figured out, it would probably be close to Covid. These Covid numbers will continue to go down.

        My comparison though to the flu was that every year, there is a new strain with a new vaccine. And every year, a large number still die from it.

        I’m not anti-vax, I am though against destroying people’s livelihood that opt out. No one is taking in consideration that natural immunity is better than the vaccine . Now you will be considered “unvaxxed” if you don’t get all the boosters? The goal posts keep moving. We have had HUGE successes in terms of the right people getting vaccinated, time to move on and stop punishing political enemies, which is what this is really all about.

        What’s ironic is the demo that’s most “guilty” of not getting vaccinated is African-Americans, not Trump “boomers” like the media likes to misrepresent. Older white Americans have sky high vaccination rates.

    • 0 avatar
      slavuta

      Crosley

      here is a list of vaxxed athletes who either died or had big issues from the Faucci shot

      https://www.notonthebeeb.co.uk/post/surge-of-sports-people-worldwide-suffering-unexpected-ill-health

  • avatar
    kcflyer

    The worst part is kids being forced to get it. Absolutely crazy.

  • avatar
    Imagefont

    Good grief Charlie Brown, grow up and get vaccinated. It’s proven effective, it’s not experimental, it’s proven safe and it can save your worthless useless life. At this point anyone fighting against the vaccine is a moron and your opinion is worthless. Geez it’s like going sky diving and fighting against parachute mandates – parachutes kill! You can’t make me wear one! First it’s parachutes, then it’s total mind control! Slippery slope!
    Go ahead, don’t get vaccinated, I don’t give a crap.
    http://www.sorryantivaxxer.com

    • 0 avatar
      SCE to AUX

      I guess some causes are worth dying for.

      Quite a link there. I had an acquaintance who could be on it; he died this spring. The Left was out to get him.

      • 0 avatar
        FreedMike

        Please define “out to get him.”

        • 0 avatar
          SCE to AUX

          @FreedMike: You know, the anti-government sentiment that many of us have, but mixed with the conspiracy rhetoric that has become popular with the far right.

          I used to subscribe to all that because it was fun to be angry with special knowledge. Then I realized that I could live my life just fine without playing a Republican victim.

          The Far Right has adopted the same sense of victimhood that they accused the Left of promoting. I can’t stand either one.

  • avatar
    SCE to AUX

    Covid aside, it’s naive to think that Unifor or the UAW have real power any more. They collect dues without providing job protection, or a meaningful voice in disputes. They can only slow the inevitable, and the mfrs hold all the cards.

    As for Covid, however, I distinctly remember the UAW (at least) siding with the companies about masks, workplace distancing, and plant re-openings, even protesting that the companies were under-protecting the workers. Now it’s the other way.

    My employer’s D-Day was December 8th. Several workers walked, but I think all requested exemptions were granted – except those who presented a political defense. Unfortunately, we now have the unvaccinated workers wearing masks like a scarlet “A”, and their sentiments about the company are justifiably scarred.

    Ironically, with most people unmasked now, we will be more susceptible to superspreading of the next Covid variant.

    • 0 avatar
      FreedMike

      “Unfortunately, we now have the unvaccinated workers wearing masks like a scarlet “A”, and their sentiments about the company are justifiably scarred.”

      If people can’t handle their employers imposing basic workplace safety rules, then I don’t want to work with them. They’re scarring themselves, if you ask me.

    • 0 avatar
      Lou_BC

      Please read my comments above as to how unions work(in Canada). In the USA only 10% of the workforce is unionized. So yes, unions are losing power. In Canada there’s been a contracture in the auto sector. CAW merged into UNIFOR as part of a group of unions. That was to increase power through size.

  • avatar
    Arthur Dailey

    Matt, perhaps you should restrict your opinions to subjects that you have some knowledge of? Obviously you do not understand the concept of Parliamentary Sovereignty. And have not followed the jurisprudence in Ontario (or the rest of Canada) including judicial and arbitration decisions regarding mandatory vaccination policies in the workplace. Public Health guidelines and the requirements under Section 25(2)(h) Occupational Health and Safety Act have been upheld repeatedly.

    As for UNIFOR, union challenges to these policies have been overturned in most instances. And the union has an obligation to protect the health and safety of their members.

    When you state that this is a “grotesque overreach in authority by governments” you are not stating fact based on any jurisprudence or historical precedent in Canada. Instead you are posting ‘misinformation’.

    Deaths per million per capita due to COVID in Canada 787. In the USA 2,399.

  • avatar
    Arthur Dailey

    Canadian statistics as published in the Globe & Mail. Anti-vaxxers either need a course in remedial math or need to attend the George Costanza seminar on risk management.

    “As of Nov. 26, the latest date for which figures are available, they totalled 27,747 – out of about 60 million doses administered. Of these, just 6,443 were classified as “serious.” That’s roughly 1 in 9,300. Even if we attributed every one of those to the vaccine, we’d have to compare the result with the risk of “adverse events” from the disease. The death rate from COVID, for example, relative to population, is nearly 200 times as high as that following vaccination.”

  • avatar
    dal20402

    Sounds to me like the union is sensibly representing the bulk of its membership in declining to stick its neck out for a few malcontents who, for no intelligible reason, are elevating the risk of disease for the rest of the membership and everyone else in the workplace.

    • 0 avatar
      Astigmatism

      Oh, it’s _intelligible_; it’s just not _intelligent_. “You can’t make me, and I’m not gonna just to prove it” is a reason that I can at least discern, but it’s not a very good one.

      • 0 avatar
        dal20402

        I see that as equivalent to either a two-year-old’s tantrum or a chest-beating gorilla; in either case, any actual words that are uttered in connection with it are probably nonsense.

    • 0 avatar
      Lou_BC

      @dal20402 – unions aren’t going to bust their assez going to bat for anti-vaccer’s who’ve gotten fired. Those that do ask for union assistance will get their case reviewed but as long as the employer follows the collective agreement language, there isn’t much that they can do if processes are followed.

      • 0 avatar
        dal20402

        Sadly, there are more US unions than there should be—especially police and fire unions—who are putting anti-vaxxers first and spending extraordinary resources to defend them, at the direct expense of the rest of the membership, not to mention the public in the communities their members are supposed to serve.

    • 0 avatar
      jkross22

      Malcontents, anti-vaxxers, insult/othering du jour. How does this end, Dal?

      Dividing society into the Good and the Selfish doesn’t overcome division: it creates it and throws gas on the fire. It’s scapegoating. It doesn’t work.

      As someone recently wrote, “What do you plan to do with with our new subpopulation of angry and alienated outsiders? They are still there – but now they’re not just opponents, they are enemies.”

      We need to all figure out a way to divorce our collective bird brain on this issue. It’s not helping, it isn’t changing anyone’s mind and it’s eroding what little is left of being able to converse with those whom we don’t agree.

      • 0 avatar
        dal20402

        This is an issue where we need to stop pandering to people who have fallen victim to misinformation. Don’t punish, but don’t coddle either. They are hurting society too much.

        If we had 90% vaccination everywhere we wouldn’t have a pandemic anymore. But the people who refuse to get vaccinated, based entirely on misinformation, just keep it going. They aren’t just harmlessly exercising freedom. They are the ones killing a bunch of our health care workers and burning out the rest, forcing us to have limitations on gatherings for years on end, and endangering our parents’ and grandparents’ lives. It needs to stop.

        • 0 avatar
          28-Cars-Later

          Disinformation is present in everything you think is information, including some of the follow up statements.

        • 0 avatar
          ToolGuy

          “If we had 90% vaccination everywhere”

          Are you saying 90% of the U.S., 90% of North America, or 90% of the world?

          https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations

          (90% of 4-year-olds? Not exactly possible right now)
          https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/recommendations/children-teens.html

          @dal20402,
          a) Are you getting a Unicorn for the holidays?
          b) When you don’t, who are you going to blame?

          • 0 avatar
            dal20402

            I’m saying 90% of the US. We could have easily had that by now if not for anti-vax misinformation.

          • 0 avatar
            28-Cars-Later

            Fact: Does not confer immunity, which *is* the point of a vaccine.

            Fact: Because it cannot confer immunity, “vaccinated” are carriers.

            Fact: New “variants” are incubated in the “vaccinated”, who remain largely unaffected but still act as carriers.

            Fact: The more “vaccinated” a population is, the more the disease will linger because their bodies cannot destroy the infection, while healthy people can and they will no longer remain carriers.

            Fact: Long term side effects are unknown.

            Fact: Some younger people are developing myocarditis as a result of the injection.

            Fact: Without comorbidities under 70, survival is something north of 99%, I believe 99.8%.

            Fact: There is zero liability protection for side affects and death due to injections.

            Fact: They admit to 16,000+ deaths from injections, true deaths are likely much higher. CDC pulled the Swine Flu vaccine in 1976 after 50 deaths.

            Likely true: the injections may take years off of a person’s life due to unknown long term effects and known effects (myocarditis, Bells Palsy etc.). For a person in an elderly at risk group, this may be worth the risk since the disease may take them out without it and with it they may lose some potential lifespan but remain alive. For anyone not in this risk group, so under 60, there is 99.9% risk and 0.01% reward. Any “mandate” *is* murder.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            “The more “vaccinated” a population is, the more the disease will linger because their bodies cannot destroy the infection, while healthy people can and they will no longer remain carriers.”

            Incorrect. Vaccines just program one’s immune system to recognize a pathogen and have a response to it ready and waiting. That isn’t all that different that actual exposure to the pathogen. I’d rather get a vaccine than a full blown disease. People who survive COVID-19 can still catch SARS-CoV-2 a second or third time or even become a carrier.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            “New “variants” are incubated in the “vaccinated”, who remain largely unaffected but still act as carriers.”

            Umm. Less likely than in the unvaccinated. New “variants” occur due to the opportunity to replicate in massive numbers. The greater the rate of replication the greater the rate of mutation. The vaccinated who contract SARS-CoV-2 tend to have lower viral loads i.e. less virus. That means a lower risk of mutation.

            It’s a fallacy that mutations occur because of immunized people. The virus isn’t intelligent.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            “Fact: Without comorbidities under 70, survival is something north of 99%, I believe 99.8%.”

            That’s true for virtually all serious illnesses. Why don’t you look up the percentage of Americans with at least one COVID-19 comorbidity. That number is staggering.

  • avatar
    Jeff S

    Most large corporations have vaccine mandates to protect themselves from lawsuits despite whether the Government requires a vaccine mandate or not. Public health and safety should be more important than an individual’s choice to have or not have a vaccine.

    • 0 avatar
      28-Cars-Later

      That is already backfiring and is beyond stupid. Much like asbestos litigation it would have to be proven, and the rapid “test” isn’t reliable only the bloodwork is somewhat indicative (plus in a wrongful death there is a whole chain of custody in healthcare which could be involved) Suits would go nowhere quick, that’s why “I got the flu at work” suit do not happen every winter.

  • avatar
    ollicat

    37 NFL players are out with covid. 36 of them are “vaccinated” When will we get it that the jabs do NOTHING to prevent you from getting covid or spreading it. They are simply designed to reduce your symptoms and help you get over it more quickly. So requiring a therapeutic drug with many side effects is really draconian and unneccessary.

    • 0 avatar
      Lou_BC

      @ollicat – the virus has evolved which also causes the science to evolve. The hope initially was that the vaccines would help eradicate the virus like small pox or polio. Multiple mutations later, we know that isn’t the case. Omicron looks like a highly infective variant but low mortality rate.

    • 0 avatar
      slavuta

      Check this list out

      https://www.notonthebeeb.co.uk/post/surge-of-sports-people-worldwide-suffering-unexpected-ill-health

  • avatar
    Bluegas

    I see all the usual word smith’s genuflecting at their own written diarrhea.

    If you keyboard warriors that comment on every story posted to this site really believe the novels you write are of some vast superior intellect or knowledge, apply for a job [email protected]

    You all accuse the Author and other commenters daily about their opinions while offering your own opinions like they have some basis in anyone else’s reality but your own. Please, keep your day jobs.

  • avatar

    graphene oxide is poison, heart troubles, miscarriages, still births, sudden death. you are being lied. to

    Never Mask, Never Vax!

  • avatar
    JD-Shifty

    “graphene oxide is poison, heart troubles, miscarriages, still births, sudden death. you are being lied. to

    Never Mask, Never Vax!”

    I don’t folks like you to do either one. ever. it will work itself out.

  • avatar
    Lou_BC

    “GM Canada Tells Unvaccinated Workers to Stay Home, Union Unhelpful”

    I’d say that this should yield over 100 clicks.

    A Libertarian/Conservative/right wing superfecta fever dream: Big government mandates, Corporate edicts, useless unions, COVID – 19, and vaccines.

  • avatar
    ravenuer

    Just curious, what’s an “unpaid bathroom brake”?

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