By on September 10, 2021

With the Biden administration having announced that it would start requiring companies to vaccinate employees, automakers and UAW are finding themselves in a sticky situation. Unions had previously said they wanted to hold off on endorsing or opposing mandatory vaccinations until after they discussed things with the industry and their own members. Considering Joe Biden said he wouldn’t make vaccines mandatory less than 10 months ago, employers are getting caught with their pants around the proverbial ankles.

Automakers had previously been surveying white-collar workers to see what they wanted to do while upping on-site COVID restrictions, but operating under the impression that any hard decisions were likely a long way off and left entirely to their discretion. Now the Department of Labor’s Occupational Safety and Health Administration is planning a new standard that requires all employers with 100 (or more) employees to guarantee their workforce is fully vaccinated or require any unvaccinated workers to produce a negative test result on a minimum weekly basis. 

Employers that fail to implement the stated requirements could face fines of nearly $14,000 per violation, according to the White House, with penalties also doubling for those who refuse to wear masks during interstate travel. Those are potentially steep fees when you’re employees number in the thousands. Union officials have said they’re considering the matter without committing to more than absolutely necessary — though the UAW officially opposed vaccine requirements in the past.

From UAW President Ray Curry:

“The UAW has and continues to strongly encourage all members and their families to be vaccinated unless there is specific health or religious concerns. We know that this is the best way to protect our members, coworkers and their families.

We are reviewing the details of yesterday’s announcements and the impact on our members and our over 700 employer contracts.

In the meantime, we continue our member commitment to practice safety in every one of our worksites by following protocols including masks, sanitizing and reporting any exposure or symptoms of the virus. At the UAW we all understand that fighting this pandemic and protecting our families is key to our survival.”

Assuming the union ultimately decides to endorse the vaccine decree, it’s likely going to be fracturing its membership. While I am hardly against vaccinations, I strongly support informed consent and speaking candidly about this has resulted in autoworkers frequently confessing they’re similarly opposed to forced vaccinations. Many have said they would immediately quit their jobs, matching a recent Washington Post poll claiming 70 percent of unvaccinated workers would simply abandon their positions if vaccine mandates are instituted. It’s my assumption that the industry will have a sudden, catastrophic staffing shortage were it to move forward with the Biden plan.

Automakers have been similarly noncommittal, with manufacturers (including Ford, GM, Stellantis, Honda, and Toyota) stating they encourage staff to get vaccinated and want to adhere to all government-issued health protocols. But they typically steer clear of addressing the Biden plan directly, possibly indicating some hesitancy. That said, it hasn’t even been a full day since the vaccine mandate was announced and their HR and legal departments are probably wringing their hands as they ponder upon what’s to be done and the fallout it might create.

Every statement automakers have been willing to make thus far can be paraphrased into “hold on … we’ve got to think about this,” followed by a paragraph about how they believe in vaccinations and want to adhere to recommendations coming from the relevant health experts. Conversely, very little has been said about the rights or preferences of their employees.

I’m not going to beat around this bush. The entire premise of these mandates seems insane to me, bordering on wicked. As an American, I always thought the whole premise of the country was predicated upon the shared belief that personal liberties and freedom of choice trump everything else. But that doesn’t seem to be what’s coming down from the top anymore. The rhetoric being used by Joe Biden is egregiously confrontational, including statements like “we’ve been patient, but our patience is wearing thin” as he made sweeping assertions about how the unvaccinated are stifling national unity and progress. He also confusingly stated that vaccinated workers need to be “protected” from the unvaccinated.

Assuming vaccines are effective, shouldn’t it be the other way round? What exactly are we shielding people from when new strains continue to manifest, can still be spread amongst the vaccinated, and the shots we currently have are targeting older COVID variants that have lost steam?

The economic and social stress this is likely to place upon the industry and country as a whole will be nothing short of monumental. Protests have been erupting across the globe all summer. Truckers have started organizing in numerous countries and have refused to deliver to areas imposing strict COVID rules, exacerbating food shortages in urban areas. In the United States, the same was true for cities that opted to defund police departments. Now they’re starting to talk about strikes focused on vaccine and mask mandates while they’re already experiencing a severe shortage of drivers. Imagine if that spills over to an automotive sector that’s already been beleaguered by the semiconductor shortage, their suppliers, and every other industry you rely on.

[Image: Michael Vi/Shutterstock]

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216 Comments on “Vaccine Mandates Being Considered By Auto Industry, UAW...”


  • avatar
    John R

    oh, boy. you love stepping on that third rail…

    • 0 avatar
      Imagefont

      Everyone in this country has received multiple vaccines and in particular the MMR vaccine. And you should feel lucky about that every day. Getting another vaccine, already given to billions of people and proven safe and effective, will keep you from dying, however inconvenient that may seem. This is the same miracle vaccine you’ll be begging for with tears streaming from your eyes as you slowly suffocate on your death bed, feeling stupid.
      Go ask Phil Valentine, currently walking the streets of Hell.
      So patriot, man up, stop your whining, help squash this epidemic and get vaccinated so we can go back to doing what we were doing.
      And shut up about “ma freedums”.
      And stay off Facebook – you’re doing it wrong.

      • 0 avatar
        EBFlex

        “So patriot, man up, stop your whining, help squash this epidemic and get vaccinated so we can go back to doing what we were doing.
        And shut up about “ma freedums”.
        And stay off Facebook – you’re doing it wrong.”

        Why do you care? I assume you have received the rushed vaccine right? So mind your own business and don’t worry about it.

        You act as if having the rushed vaccine stops transmission…it does not. It actually keeps it going because the virus mutates.

        Their body, their choice right? Or is that argument only used to justify killing babies?

        • 0 avatar
          Imagefont

          As I said, everyone has had their MMR. Calling the vaccine “rushed” does not make it unsafe. This is not experimental medicine. It was tested on thousands of subjects, some getting the vaccine and some getting saline. And it can save your life, or save the life of the person to whom you did not transmit the virus, and you know all this.
          How a person can politicize a miracle, life saving vaccine is beyond my understanding. But I’m sure that person will open up a Go Fund Me account when they enter the hospital and ask all their inbred friends to pray for them.

          • 0 avatar
            EBFlex

            “ As I said, everyone has had their MMR. Calling the vaccine “rushed” does not make it unsafe. This is not experimental medicine. It was tested on thousands of subjects, some getting the vaccine and some getting saline. And it can save your life, or save the life of the person to whom you did not transmit the virus, and you know all this.
            How a person can politicize a miracle, life saving vaccine is beyond my understanding. But I’m sure that person will open up a Go Fund Me account when they enter the hospital and ask all their inbred friends to pray for them.”

            So you are incapable of answering my question and just go on an off topic diatribe about the rushed vaccine. Got it.

            Again if you have the rushed vaccine, why do you care if someone else doesn’t?

          • 0 avatar
            28-Cars-Later

            Please promise us to go get additional vials inserted into your bloodstream. I hear State Media is offering a “Buy 2 Get 1 Free” coupon in next week’s circular.

          • 0 avatar
            la834

            > Again if you have the rushed vaccine, why do you care if someone else doesn’t?

            People are dying from other diseases and conditions because there’s no hospital space because selfish fools like you are filling hospitals because they didn’t vaccinate themselves. That’s why I care. I can’t even ponder the idiocy of being more afraid of a proven-safe vaccine than a disease that didn’t even exist two years ago that has killed over 4.5 million people.

        • 0 avatar
          Crossed Up

          @EBFlex: Pregnancy is NOT contagious. You’re particular flavor of conspiracy, unfortunately, is….

          • 0 avatar
            EBFlex

            Conspiracy? I’m not pushing any conspiracy.

            And two things:

            You can’t say “my body my choice” about some medical decisions and completely ignore it for others. That’s called hypocrisy.

            Second, what’s your point about it being contagious? People that have received the rushed vaccine can get and spread covid. Your argument is null and void.

        • 0 avatar
          Number6

          Your personal freedoms end where mine begin. So if I can’t get a hospital bed because a vaccinated trust-fund said so, YOU are the problem.

          Idiot parents whine about kids suffering trauma from wearing face masks but are oddly silent about live shooter drills.

          You want personal freedom without consequences? Just wait until insurance companies refuse to pay for treatment for the unvaccinated. Then it’ll all be about how capitalism is Unamerican.

          You can’t fix stupid. Run off and wax the nuts on your RAM Warlock. And think about replacing the flags once in a while already.

          • 0 avatar
            ajla

            “Just wait until insurance companies refuse to pay for treatment for the unvaccinated.”

            Under current laws, that would be illegal.

            You can still have to pay your full deductible if you get sick and employer-provided plans can charge the unvaccinated up to 30% more each month (but not more than that), but insurance can’t deny coverage due to vaccination status. It’s actually enumerated in the ACA.

          • 0 avatar
            EBFlex

            “Your personal freedoms end where mine begin. So if I can’t get a hospital bed because a vaccinated trust-fund said so, YOU are the problem.”

            This is exceptionally stupid. Where is the verbiage that ensures a hospital bed to those that are sick? Is that in the Constitution or the bill of rights?

            Do you feel the same way when a person is taking up a hospital bed because they didn’t wear a helmet while riding a motorcycle? What about a person who has lung cancer from smoking? Further if you are vaccinated WHY DO YOU CARE? Why can’t any of these rabid pro vax charlatans answer that?

            “Idiot parents whine about kids suffering trauma from wearing face masks but are oddly silent about live shooter drills.”

            The difference is that those drills work. Masks don’t.

            “You want personal freedom without consequences? Just wait until insurance companies refuse to pay for treatment for the unvaccinated. Then it’ll all be about how capitalism is Unamerican.”

            So if someone gets the flu and it’s proven that they didn’t take the rather ineffective flu “vaccine” they should be refused treatment? The stupidity of these Alt-left, pro vaxx mouth breathers is astounding. Restrict healthcare because someone has some reasonable hesitations regarding having a rushed vaccine injected into their body yet they are the first ones to claim healthcare is a right and “my body my choice”.

            Disgusting hypocrites

          • 0 avatar
            RHD

            Why are ignorant fools so stubborn about some basic common sense? And why are there so many of them?
            Get your vaccine like a big boy, so we can stop this epidemic. Don’t be a friggin’ moron.

        • 0 avatar
          tedward

          “People that have received the rushed vaccine can get and spread covid.”

          This is relatively new information, not shocking mind you given other covid viruses, but new. Policies not being reconciled with new info is nothing new, its one of the big frustrations when dealing with beauracracies. Its the usual storm of politicians not wanting to back track (or apologize), ever, and beauraucrats working to their own timeframe.

          On the other hand its really turning into a hospitalization/capacity epidemic, which the vaccines do seem to mitigate tremendously. So the whole thing isn’t totally irrational, even if the details of the rules are, and they are based on out of date info.

          Im vaccinated, and wish more people would be for their sakes. However, im way the hell on the no side of things when it comes to threatening peoples livelihoods and freedom of travel to accomplish this. Some pressure is appropriate, and any amount of expensive persuasion would be great, just not in that form.

      • 0 avatar
        Mackey

        It’s a very convenient narrative to push this as being a ‘right wing, anti vaxer’ problem. Are there some of those in the roughly 35-40% unvaccinated? Sure. But there are also other groups…

        1) those who’ve already had COVID. So far the SCIENCE has proven them to be the most immune to infection, including variants. Of those hospitalized for Delta, 30% or more are vaccinated. 1% already had it. Why get a vaccine right now if natural immunity already significantly outperforms it?

        2). Medical professionals. Yep. I said it. The Washington Post and others have had to admit the inconvenient truth that as many as 40% of medical professionals of all levels refuse to get the vaccine. These are people of science, so they can’t be knuckle dragging Trump luddites, right?

        3.) PHDs and Doctorate level Professionals. Yep- the highest % educational level refusing to get the vaccine at this time are those at the TOP of the ladder, not the bottom.

        4). Minorities. Again, these are not white people, so they must be anti Trump Democrats, right? I mean, clearly we are free to oversimplified generalization in your views, so that must be true. But then why are they so reticent to get the vaccine? Perhaps they just believed Democrat politicians a bit too much when they told them not to trust it.

        In a world where we are supposed to rail against binary definitions and see all variations as unique, how about you pull your head out of your over generalized rectum and not use the CNN political spin machine as your replacement source for science.

      • 0 avatar
        slavuta

        This vaccine is effective? You have lost your mind. This vaccine (mRNA Comirnaty vaccine – I assume EUA vaccine can’t be mandated) is only targeting 1 protein. And the virus can go around it. While natural immunity gives multiple defenses.
        We can all see effectiveness of it in Israel. With nearly all people vaccinated they are still all getting sick.

        • 0 avatar
          ttacgreg

          “With nearly all people vaccinated they are still all getting sick.”
          A brief two minute perusal of searched articles pretty much blows up your statement.

          • 0 avatar
            slavuta

            Really?

            From Israel:

            “More than 2.8 million Israelis have received three shots of the COVID-19 vaccine, 5.5 million have had two doses, and more than six million have had one shot.”

            “The number of new coronavirus cases is rising, as 10,084 people were diagnosed with the virus out of more than 165,000 who were screened”

            “On Friday, 9,794 new virus carriers were identified, and 7,921 tested positive on Thursday”

            From one hospital:
            ““Out of 175 ventilated patients, two-thirds are not vaccinated at all,”” — so, ~60 people were vaccinated and still in trouble.

        • 0 avatar
          Arthur Dailey

          @Slavuta: You lost any credibility when you posted that “Putin is not acting like a tyrant”. Sorry but that exactly what Putin is. Russia is not a functional democracy.

          As for the effectiveness of the vaccine, sorry that you Sputnik vaccine is not effective. As for those vaccines used in the west, they are working the way a vaccine is supposed to. https://www.yalemedicine.org/news/covid-19-vaccine-comparison

          • 0 avatar
            slavuta

            Arthur

            I am done with your propaganda here. You just posting one false information after another. You never make it hard on yourself to prove your points. Just big mouth of worthless junk

            Lancent had a peer review of sputnik and declared it safe and effective
            https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)00191-4/fulltext

            Hungary tested all vaccines avail at that time and here is their finding. Sputnik was the safest and they selected it over American substances.

            Calculated per 100,000 vaccinated individuals, the average incidence rates are as follows:

            Sputnik-V: 95 infections and 1 death
            Moderna: 177 infections and 20 deaths
            Sinopharm: 356 infections and 16 deaths
            Pfizer/BioNTech: 555 infections and 32 deaths
            AstraZeneca: 700 infections and 7 deaths

            For Putin, this is your personal opinion that he is some kind of tyrant. Russians today are more free than Americans. I do have people over there who like him and who don’t like him. The people who don’t like him have a main complaint – under Putin they closed a lot of loopholes for corruption and people who used to have easy ways to make money can’t do it anymore. Now, you actually have to work for it. Tough life.
            My uncle over there just told me today – I am totally happy with Russia right now. And he is not a special fan of Putin. Putin is just a President somewhere in Moscow. My uncle lives his life, runs his business and Putin does not bother him. And THIS is exactly the role of the gov. – do not bother your people.

          • 0 avatar
            slavuta

            “Russia is not a functional democracy”

            No. And US is neither. And in fact, no democracy can function at all. It is always becomes a tyranny. Putin is long standing leader, and Russia been doing with him either good or very good, considering that they had to bring the country back from very bad. Russia is not a functioning democracy, but they are functioning state. So is China, which not a democracy but a well-run machine.

            In Ukraine we had 7 presidents, they only go worse and worse with every next one.

            Democracy is a dirty word these days. I would rather have Ronald Reagan forever or at least Trump. FDR was sitting there for long time and US seem did ok. In Germany chancellors sit for 15-17 years and there is a steady going, vs US where from election to election all policies being turned upside down, foreign and domestic

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            “I am done with your propaganda here.”

            @Arthur Dailey – Yes stop it please, it’s just way too much. I can’t stand it anymore.

            Bwaaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

          • 0 avatar
            Arthur Dailey

            Slavuta, Quit quoting Pravda. You have zero scientific peer reviewed evidence from western democracies to back-up your misinformation.

  • avatar

    Masks do not work and the jab is not a vax. virus has never been isolated. it’ a scam.

    • 0 avatar
      ravenuer

      You still selling Buicks?

    • 0 avatar
      jimmy2x

      I have no words for the anti vaccine people. Can’t even imagine what it is like to live in a mindset that endorses political BS over common sense. The virus doesn’t care about your political view.

      • 0 avatar

        much to learn have you.

      • 0 avatar
        Art Vandelay

        I have many of my retired Army friends that were hesitant. You can only have Uncle Sam tell you something is safe only to find out it is in fact not so many times before you become skeptical. I get that.

        Unfortunately I am going to one of their funerals.this weekend. I don’t judge them though, but I do try to persuade them to get the shot. These are not conspiracy types.

      • 0 avatar
        C5 is Alive

        “I have no words for the anti vaccine people.”

        You’ll find most are at the absolute razor’s edge of tolerance for your ilk, too.

        “I don’t judge them though, but I do try to persuade them to get the shot. These are not conspiracy types.”

        This is the proper, correct, mature attitude.

        • 0 avatar
          CoastieLenn

          C5: Not sure why, but I don’t find the majority of the people refusing to get THIS vaccine to be in the same camp as the historical “anti-vaxxers”, which are a whole different subset of society. To me, they’re just conveniently crossing paths at the moment.

          • 0 avatar
            tedward

            Yeah anti-vax was just some semi literate san diego moms who felt guilty about making their kids cry and various cultists before this. It certainly want 30% of the whole country. My concern is that anti vax is being adopted broadly and without consideration beyond the covid conspiracies. Most of the stuff we vax for is really nasty shit, waaay worse than covid and guaranteed to cause epic economic devastation. We don’t need to dumbass our way into those epidemics bc of this one.

      • 0 avatar
        Dave M.

        Having personally known 11 people now who died from COVID, and dozens more through friends and associates, I can proudly say that If I learned anything in these past 18 months (but especially since early January), it’s that I have zero tolerance for Trump supporters and anti-mask/vax people. Truly. There’s no intelligence there and it’s been easy to cut them out of my life. And my life has become immeasurably richer because of this.

        • 0 avatar
          Daniel J

          Everyone I know except 1 who has been vaccine hesitate voted for Biden. Some are strong life long democrats.

          These people are actually principled democrats. Anti-big pharma and They are pro-alternative medicine. They are anti “authoritarian” when it comes to telling others what to do with their body. They have all but turned on Biden and the democrats. Some are minorities.

          My own feelings:

          1. Companies can do what they want. But they do hold liability if someone dies from the shot as this would be a workplace activity if it’s mandated.

          2. Federal government (just like the states) have no business telling companies what to do. That is the purest form of Fascism.

          “Fascists promoted a corporatist economic system[18][19] whereby employer and employee syndicates are linked together in associations to collectively represent the nation’s economic producers and work alongside the state to set national economic policy”

          3. Currently, the vaccine is doing little to spread the delta variant. Google it anyone. Israel is reporting about 50 Percent of positive cases are from vaccinated people. Mandates aren’t about safety.

          4. If we are worried about hospitals, a better approach would for companies to test for antibodies. Again, this isn’t about safety. If it was, then why not test that?

          5. Adults worried about their children should know that they are 10x more likely to die in an auto accident and 20x more likely to drown. Again, not about safety.

          6. The excuse about vaccines such as MMR which have been around for DECADES doesn’t hold with a vaccine that’s been out for 18 months. One can look at the early Polio vaccines to see where people had long term effects from those vaccines in their early stages. We have ZERO data past 18 months. It took 4-5 years for schools to adopt HEP vaccines because…gee… wouldn’t we want to make sure they are safe long-term.

          7. Maybe if the media and authorutarians would stop trivializing it as just a jab. So when I see someone fat I should tell them to get a gastric bypass that it’s just a simple snip and cut.

          8. Have professionals actually giving it. I went to a “clinic” and they had no idea if they had an epi pen. 10-12 people out of 1m have had anaphylaxis.

          And before folks get all judgemental, my father died from Covid. I would have loved for him to get the vaccine. But the risk analysis for a 74 year old vs a 25 year old are significantly different.

          I had Covid. I’ve had my first shot which made me feel 10x worse than when I had Covid. However, why should I be afraid of the unvaccinated?

          The hospital argument doesn’t hold water at all. ICUs are filled with heart attack, diabetic, auto accident, occupational, and all sorts of other patients where the patient has purposefully put themselves in harms way.

          • 0 avatar
            EBFlex

            Wonderful post Daniel. Common sense and reasonable. A breath of fresh air.

            “ Everyone I know except 1 who has been vaccine hesitate voted for Biden. Some are strong life long democrats.”

            The biggest single group of people that are vaccine hesitant are PhDs. I wonder why that is

          • 0 avatar
            tomLU86

            Daniel,

            In the US, since 1987 vaccine makers are essentially free of any legal liability. They cannot be sued.

            If OSHA forces companies to force employees to take the shots, it seems to me the companies cannot be sued either.

            It’s unfortunate you suffered ill effects after your COVID shot. Sounds like a bad case. Hopefully that is all. No one really knows the long-term effects.

            You are one of the 150,000,000 data points. Good luck to you.

            Thousands have died from the shot, both from VAERS, and anecdotally.

            Of course, thousands more have died from COVID-19, both from what what are told, and anecdotally (I only know of one shot-related death, vs several COVID).

            This situation is a bad deal all-around.

            But one size does not fit all, when it comes to vaccines.

            And COVID, unlike cholera or TB, affects different people differently.

            Just like the shot affects different people differently.

            And if you trust the US government to be honest with you (Pres Trump “…it’s gonna be a great vaccine, we did it in record time”….Pres Biden “…vaccines save lives”), well, I guess y’all missed the scenes at Kabul Airport–where just days before, the highest members of the govt said, “the Afghan govt is not going to fall tomorrow or next week or next month”. This after years of being told “we’ve made great progress”.

            Always making great progress in the war, always! And yet… kind of like Vietnam.

            Kind of like “you can keep your health insurance”.

            Kind of like “Iraq has weapons of mass destruction”

            Yes, trust the leadership!

            So, I’ll let you trust the leadership and establishment media (like Facebook that censors a former President, but allows the Taliban), and you can take the shot and take YOUR chances, and you let me not take it and take MY chances.

          • 0 avatar
            mcs

            “The biggest single group of people that are vaccine hesitant are PhDs. I wonder why that is”

            https://gsas.harvard.edu/programs-of-study/all/film-visual-studies
            https://bryan.uncg.edu/programs/phd/list/consumer-apparel-and-retail-studies-3/
            https://www.manchester.ac.uk/study/postgraduate-research/programmes/list/12348/>
            https://gradschool.cornell.edu/academics/fields-of-study/subject/fiber-science->
            https://gsas.columbia.edu/art-history-and-archaeology-phd
            https://gsas.columbia.edu/degree-programs/phd-programs/classics

          • 0 avatar
            Arthur Dailey

            @Daniel J. Regarding the problem with the early polio vaccines, there was only one problem and that was from a manufacturing facility in the USA. The U.S. switched to using only vaccine manufactured by Connaught Laboratories in Toronto and had zero ill effects from those vaccines.

          • 0 avatar
            Arthur Dailey

            @Daniel. Thanks but there are some incorrect assumptions.

            ICUs are being filled with the unvaccinated. The vaccine works quite well at preventing serious illness/death for the vast majority.

            In Ontario there are specific requirements for who/were the vaccine can be administered. And all vaccinations are recorded with the Ministry of Health.

            Referencing the amount of time that vaccines have been around is not an ‘excuse’. It is an example of the amount of research and trials they have undergone. The hospitals are not being filled with people who have experienced adverse effects from the vaccination. There are multiple peer reviewed publications documenting how much safer getting the vaccination is than getting COVID.

        • 0 avatar
          slavuta

          Dave M

          it is because all the people you know are fat nasty burger and beer eaters.
          All my friends eat caviar and truffles. While chasing it with a fine Irish whiskey or a Grey Goose.

          I know about 10 people who got infected with it. And only 1 had a small problem for one day and other few did not even know that they are sick.

          This is all about lifestyle.

      • 0 avatar
        28-Cars-Later

        “The virus doesn’t care about your political view.”

        Neither do your “elected” leaders.

    • 0 avatar
      bd2

      Masks don’t work?

      Tell that to the top infectious disease experts in Asia who have experience with SARS, etc.

      And while a vax doesn’t necessarily prevent you from getting Covid, esp. from new, more powerful strains like Delta (just like how getting the flu vax doesn’t necessarily prevent someone from getting the flu, particularly of a different strain), it does lessen the chance of an otherwise healthy person getting seriously ill.

      The majority of Covid infected patients who have filled the ICUs across the South are not vaxed, and they are preventing people (including kids) seriously ill from other diseases to get admitted.

      • 0 avatar
        SCE to AUX

        @bd2: Correct.

        Masks are not equivalent to spacesuits, but lab tests show they considerably reduce droplet velocity and distance, and therefore viral load.

        Life is a game of statistics, and masks are no different. Declaring ‘they don’t work’ is a foolish strawman claim. Sometimes seatbelts don’t work either, but the data says you’re better off wearing one.

        • 0 avatar
          Carlson Fan

          “@bd2: Correct.

          Masks are not equivalent to spacesuits, but lab tests show they considerably reduce droplet velocity and distance, and therefore viral load.”

          The number I got from a physician was they are about 85% effective.

          • 0 avatar
            jkross22

            Carlson, Depends on the mask. And where you visit. And if you travel by air. And how crowded your neighborhood is. And how healthy you are. And if you’ve had Covid before.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            People argue that masks don’t provide much protection for themselves. That is a selfish view. A clothe mask or even a simple surgical mask works primarily at controlling what the wearer emits when breathing, coughing, or talking.
            The whole point of masking is to reduce the amount of virus floating around in the air that we breath.
            A recent randomized controlled trial that involved 600 villages in Bangladesh and 350,000 people completed. They encouraged people to wear masks in the “study” villages and obtained a 42% mask wearing compliance rate which resulted in a 9% reduction of community-level symptomatic coronavirus infections.
            Mask wearing correlates directly to reduced disease spread. More masks equals less disease.

        • 0 avatar
          ttacgreg

          There is also the nuance as to what kind of mask and how it is worn. An N95 with a tight skin seal all around is far more effective than a loosely fitted cloth mask.
          I’m recently back to sporting my Covid goatee beard so I can get my N 95 masks skin tight. Much to my surprise, I discovered that my N95 masks filter out even aromas, such as strong disinfectant aromas in motel rooms, and public bathroom aromas as well.

        • 0 avatar
          mcs

          If masks and sanitizing and distancing didn’t work, then why did sales of cold medication etc drop?

          https://www.marketplace.org/2021/04/08/have-cold-medicine-sales-declined-during-the-covid-19-crisis/

          In science, sometimes you can’t study something directly and have to focus on something else that would follow the same trend. We don’t have prior years comparisons of masks and other procedures on COVID, but we do have data on colds etc. If colds are being reduced, the impact of covid is being reduced as well.

      • 0 avatar
        Guythall

        “… majority of Covid infected patients who have filled the ICUs across the South are not vaxed…”

        Understatement of the week.

      • 0 avatar
        EBFlex

        “Masks don’t work?

        Tell that to the top infectious disease experts in Asia who have experience with SARS, etc.”

        How about just look at the numbers? Everytime a mask mandate was put into place cases either remained steady or drastically increased.

        Or tell that to the top infectious disease expert that said anything short of a N95 is essentially useless:

        https://wbckfm.com/bidens-top-covid-advisor-cnn-cloth-masks-dont-work/

        Heck even Fauci the elf said they really don’t work.

      • 0 avatar
        slavuta

        bd2
        who told you that Delta variant is more powerful? Some say it is more transmissible. But powerful? I don’t think so. Usually, viruses just evolve themselves into weaker and weaker variants and epidemic stops.

    • 0 avatar
      dal20402

      The only scam here is whatever source is feeding you your information.

    • 0 avatar
      EBFlex

      “Masks do not work and the jab is not a vax. virus has never been isolated. it’ a scam.”

      Very Very true.

      What I don’t understand is the rabid insistence to force people to get the rushed vaccine. Those that want it have it. Those that don’t assume the risks. Where is the problem?

      Whatever happened to my body, my choice?

      These liberal tyrants say “just trust the science”….the same science that has been wrong ever since China released this on the world. The same liberal tyrants that cast doubt on the vaccine when they were running for office. The same liberal tyrants that just a few months ago said that a vaccine mandate was not on the table.

      These are the same liberal tyrants that scream trust the science….the science that says if you have 99 employees you don’t need to get the rushed vaccine because “science” but if you have 100 employees you must get the rushed vaccine…because “science”.

      These same liberal tyrants say that YOU MUST get the rushed vaccine while they allow thousands of illegal aliens cross the border bringing covid with them. These same liberal tyrants say barriers don’t work when talking about the border but claim masks are the way out of this (ignoring the fact that cases are completely unaffected by masking)

      These same liberal tyrants say get the rushed vaccine yet Israel has one of the highest vaccination rates in the world yet are seeing a huge surge in cases. But, trust the science. https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/08/20/1029628471/highly-vaccinated-israel-is-seeing-a-dramatic-surge-in-new-covid-cases-heres-why

      Liberal tyrants in school districts are forcing children to get the rushed vaccine yet teenage boys are six times more likely to suffer from heart problems from the rushed vaccine than be hospitalized from Covid.

      -2-weeks to slow the spread.
      -It’s just a mask, wear it and you will be fine (precursor to vaccine mandates).
      -Get the rushed vaccine and you don’t have to wear a mask anymore.
      -Hydroxychloroquine doesn’t work (but yet it does).
      -Ivermectin doesn’t work (but yet it does).
      -Natural antibodies don’t offer the same protection as the rushed vaccine.
      -Covid was first here in January 2020 (Lie it was here MONTHS before)
      -Covid is not transmissible from human to human (WHO tweet…that aged well)

      And on and on and on.

      So tell me again why we should trust these frauds when EVERYTHING they have said (including that lying elf Fauci who’s organization provided funding for gain-of-function research at the Wuhan lab and is partly responsible for this) has been either wrong or a flat out lie?

      Anyone that wonders why people don’t trust the government are the same type of people that believe the Taliban has changed their ways and is far more inclusive now. You are fools.

      • 0 avatar
        Michael S6

        It is very unfortunate that science has become so political and that scientific facts can be so manipulated by people who have no scientific background.
        I am not a democrat or republican as I voted both ways , but I am a physician, and there is no doubt in my mind that the vaccine save lives, and is our only way to control the epidemic. Masks do help but you have to wear a KN95 or N95 to get significant protection.
        The idea of my body my life doesn’t hold in this situation. The unvaccinated population is propagating the epidemic that is affecting all of us. The cost to our country in lives, health system burden, and to our economy from this virus is incredible and we are all affected by this. A few years ago, we had a mini measles epidemic brought on by people who claimed religion exemption from the vaccine. Eventually all the schools mandated measles vaccine as we can not allow individual right to potentially harm or kill other members of society.

        • 0 avatar
          EBFlex

          “ and there is no doubt in my mind that the vaccine save lives, and is our only way to control the epidemic. Masks do help but you have to wear a KN95 or N95 to get significant protection.
          The idea of my body my life doesn’t hold in this situation. The unvaccinated population is propagating the epidemic that is affecting all of us. ”

          Here is where you are wrong:

          1. Nobody (in any sort of large numbers) is claiming the rushed vaccine doesn’t work or isn’t helpful.

          2. You claim the unvaccinated are a problem. For whom are they a problem? Again if you have the vaccine, shut your mouth. You did what you feel is right and you *should* be protected. But you can still EASILY get covid and you can EASILY spread covid. TheRE IS A REASON Israel, a country with one of the highest vaccination rates in the world is seeing a large surge in cases. The only point of the vaccine is to lessen the symptoms on the person that received it. The vaccine does very little to curb the spread.

          • 0 avatar
            Imagefont

            Flex
            You are seriously misinformed and spreading the same misinformation you learned from Fox News. You’re devolving in your old age and you’re going to get worse. Fact is, the vaccine GREATLY diminishes your chances of catching the virus and to an even greater extent will save your life in the unlikely event that you do. It will also greatly diminish your chances of infecting another person. These are undisputed facts that can’t be argued, you can look them up anytime you want. Also, masks are effective in helping to stop / reduce the spread of the virus.
            All facts, undisputed, denying them is pointless, you’re simply wrong. And shut up yourself.

          • 0 avatar
            Michael S6

            The vaccine does protect against severe illness and 90 percent of people in our hospital system for Covid are unvaccinated. The CDC statistics show that you are 11 times more likely to die from covid if unvaccinated.
            I didn’t say that the vaccine is perfect, but even if the vaccine is only 50 percent effective in preventing infection and 90 percent effective in preventive death, you are significantly curtailing the epidemic and saving tens and hundreds of thousand of lives in a country of 350 million people.
            How can you say that the unvaccinated are not a problem if they are packing our hospitals and ICU with Covid patients ?

          • 0 avatar
            EBFlex

            “ You are seriously misinformed and spreading the same misinformation you learned from Fox News.”

            You can choose to deny reality all you want but nothing I’ve said is false.

            Israel, one of the highest vaccinated countries on the planet is seeing a huge surge in covid cases.

            The vaccine only lessens symptoms for those that have it. It does NOT prevent spread and it does NOT prevent you from catching it.

            Rather than wade deep into fear porn why not try out looking at facts and coming to a logical conclusion.

            If masks work, why did cases rise after mask mandates were put into place? If the vaccine prevents people from getting covid or spreading it, why are cases rising in countries where 80+ percent of people are vaccinated?

        • 0 avatar
          tomLU86

          The VACCINATED are propagating the epidemic. Look at Israel. Look at the Massachusetts resort this summer.

          The measles are different. Contracting measles means a VERY HIGH probability (much higher than 50%) of being ill for a week or two, and bad cases lead to death. They are extremely contagious.

          COVID is contagious also. However, COVID does NOT have a VERY HIGH probability of being ill for a week or two, or death.

          Many COVID deaths were probably avoidable, had the disease been treated aggressively in the early stages. Instead, our FDA says “…ivermectin/hydroxychloroquil is not approved for COVID-19” so there is often no aggressive early treatment, and COVID then decimates the unlucky few.

          The above drugs are cheap. If they are only 50% effective, they are worth it, are they not? Why do the govt, the medical community, not push to use these for those who are sick?

          • 0 avatar
            Imagefont

            Tom,
            No, the vaccinated are not propagating the virus. It is the unvaccinated. You were lied to by your “alternative” sources, again. The unvaccinated are harboring the virus, passing it to others and this gives rise to variants since the virus has so manny welcoming hosts. I’m sorry you’ve made it this far in life and not learned anything.
            All the typical subjects, doing the predictable thing right on cue. It’s not even funny anymore, you’re just dismissed immediately out of hand. But go ahead, tell your lies. I strain to fathom what value you find in a miserable wasted life by propagating such obvious nonsense, half truths and outright lies. Pathetic.

        • 0 avatar
          slavuta

          Michael S6

          you may be a physician but obviously not a virologist. I listen to those dudes.

          Let me tell you what they say – vaccination during pandemic is a bad idea.

          Now about your trust into CDC – this organization is total crap. For example, now, if you died after vaccine shot, this is counted as covid death. Because you did not have 14 days after the vaccine. WTF?

          I also read that blood donors had their blood tested for COVID antibodies, 1.4M cases. They found that 50% more people have antibodies in those samples than CDC reports. What this means – we have way more people who already been introduced to covid and this means that death ratio is even lesser than originally thought of and more people have immunity.

          And please, unvaccinated are not packing hospitals. This is straight lies. When was this when British top medical advisor to the PM said that “currently 60% of hospitalizations are fully vaccinated people”. But even this does not mean they are packing hospitals. There could be 10 patients and 6 fully vaxxed.

          Unfortunately CDC only has now July numbers but it is 9% for COVID. And 60% ICU for ALL patients.

      • 0 avatar
        Peter Gazis

        EBFLEX

        Simple solution: Don’t leave home, and don’t associate with anyone.

    • 0 avatar
      Number6

      Based in your extensive understanding of ho surface energy and biology, no doubt. Question- do you think the face masks worn by the people that make your working computer chips actually work? That only needs to trap potassium and sodium ions, which are clearly smaller than a protein-coated lump of DNA.

      I’ll wait here for your answer, science-boy.

      • 0 avatar
        Lou_BC

        “Masks don’t work”.
        I was talking to a fellow who by any academic measure isn’t very educated and by any financial measure isn’t very high up the socioeconomic scale.

        He did say something very astute,

        “there are those that say masks don’t work. I’ve had several surgeries and each time I was rolled into that room, everyone was wearing a mask. Each time, I went home without an infection.”

        • 0 avatar
          28-Cars-Later

          Your friend neglects to mention or understand there is a difference between medical grade masks and the type used by the majority of the population. Even in medical grade equipment (98% equivalent IIRC), the Danish study out late last year showed the difference was minimal.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            @28-cars-later – the whole point missed by most Anti-mask people is “protection of others”. Surgical masks and even cloth masks predominantly protect others. That’s the point. Masks contain OUR bugs. They provide some protection to the wearer but mostly protect others.

            If everyone wore masks the airborne viral load would be reduced significantly. That is critical to ending the pandemic.

            Anti-mask’ers focus on the “me”, the “I” not “we” or “us” or “all”.

            My somewhat simple friend grasps that fact without any medical studies in front of him.

            Anti-masker’s have been referred to masks as “face diapers”. They see it as an insult to the wearer but inadvertently sum up the purpose of simple facemasks by conflating the two. They both contain matter that isn’t good to spread around!

            Mask-up and vax-up or ICU-up.

        • 0 avatar
          slavuta

          Lou,

          he forgot to tell you that right now, before pretty much any surgery, you get pumped with IV antibiotics.

          So, we don’t know if mask or antibiotics saved him

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            @slavuto – LOL. Pumped full? Um.. no. Prophylactic antibiotics are to combat one’s own skin bacteria that get into the surgical incision. Face masks and aseptic techniques cover the rest.

          • 0 avatar
            slavuta

            Loo
            you always LOL when saying something stupid

            What are Surgical Site Infections?
            A Surgical Site Infection (SSI) is an infection in the area where surgery was done. Most SSIs involve the skin, but sometimes deep tissue or organs can become infected.

            One of the places where they use this is for bone graft. Nobody wants to leave infection in your bone tissue. This is not your daily skin bacteria

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            @slavuta – Unlike you, I don’t need to look up the definitions.

            Skin in typically the main source even with thorough skin prep.

            That shows that masks are highly effective in preventing the spread of disease.

            Now run along and polish your collection of Putin Dolls.

          • 0 avatar
            slavuta

            At least Putin does not act like a tyrant. He says, “vaccinations should not be compulsory”. West has a lot to learn from true leaders of the true free world, like Putin and Orban.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            “Putin and Orban”
            .I guess it’s wise on your part to kiss the asses of your masters.

          • 0 avatar
            slavuta

            I will kiss ass of anyone who has actual support for individual freedoms. And right now, you often hear this
            “To run from communism you must go to Eastern Europe”
            Yes, world has turned upside down. Biden administration sides with Hungarian communists to overturn Victor Orban election. Poland fights EU to preserve their culture. In Lithuania the government sends police instigators to get antivax protesters angry and attack the uniformed police, so then they can send a riot police and jail all the protesters – done on the orders from EU. You know, who pays, orders the music.

    • 0 avatar
      JD-Shifty

      so baby donald lied to me about the vaccine?

  • avatar
    CoastieLenn

    I 100% believe that there should be a hold-off of ANY automotive related postings if they have anything to do with vaccinations, bans, plans, politics, etc. for a finite time period. If people want polarizing news, they can watch TV or go on Facebook and argue with each other.

    I feel like, while TTAC might have some minor spin “oh, its automotive related”, the vast majority of these articles are just to incite peoples opinions, feelings, frustrations, and comments. Understandably they drive revenue, but at the same time, you’re potentially making your viewing audience pool smaller.

    Personally, I feel there’s more to gain by being that place people that enjoy automobilia can come to get away from the bull that’s happening all around them… not be that place that will hit them in the face with it four times in one week because it’s loosely tied to automobiles.

    • 0 avatar
      Tim Healey

      Couple things here: This is an issue that affects the industry we cover, and we’d be remiss if we didn’t cover it (that said, given our small staff, we do miss/skip some things). And we allow for editorializing here — this would’ve been a straight news story at other places I’ve worked. There are pros and cons to both approaches, but TTAC has never been shy about being opinionated.

      Matt is allowed his opinion. I don’t agree with him on this, and perhaps I will express that opinion later, but he is entitled to it, and it’s clear that it is his opinion.

      We don’t do this just for the clicks. We’re not that cynical. And I know we’re all exhausted by this topic, but it’s not something we can just avoid.

      • 0 avatar
        CoastieLenn

        Tim, for what it’s worth (probably not much), coverage of the UAW and its inner workings *hardly* effects the actual products they create, which is the subject header of your site- the car. Sure, there *is* a tangible link in some regards, but not in a way that most people come to this site to read about. This isn’t WSJ or Newsweek. Most of us don’t give a damn about what the UAW does most of the time. We care about how well the new Tundra will perform and what powertrain choices might be in the new Raptor R.

        For reference, I agree with Matt. This sentence perfectly sums up the issue with this whole argument. “I always thought the whole premise of the country was predicated upon the shared belief that personal liberties and freedom of choice trump everything else.” I’m vaccinated, I will get my kids vaccinated as soon as they’re of age to do so, and I think everyone should WANT to get vaccinated. I also don’t think I can fault someone for not wanting to get a vaccine. If we will allow for religious pretenses to mandates (which you KNOW they will), then we can allow for person discretion.

        This isn’t a place to come to read constant berating’s of one authors opinion on Biden, his plans, vaccines, COVID, or anything of that nature, followed by the next article where the other author disagrees with the first author. I never thought I’d see the day where I’d be skipping over potential actual news to read a review of the newest CUV blob because I’m tired of reading it. Judging by the comments section crap-show, I’d say most of your readership is. Sad that you can’t recognize it and make actual efforts to be the port in the storm. Instead, seemingly feeding it to keep the flames going.

        • 0 avatar
          Tim Healey

          I understand your frustrations with being presented with politics at a car blog. But I’d remind you that:

          1. Politics and cars intersect. Often. It’s a fact of life.
          2. TTAC, unlike some other outlets, has always covered that side of the industry. Both in terms of straight news and opinion, along with news that is editorialized. This isn’t some new edict from me — it goes back a long time. I’m glad we cover this stuff, because it’s worth discussing.
          3. You have the freedom to not read articles you’d rather skip. I have certain blogs and Web sites I read and I skip topics I don’t want to engage with. I have to read the posts that appear on the site. I am paid to. But you don’t have to :)

          • 0 avatar
            CoastieLenn

            Tim, you’re 100% right. I have read TTAC daily since 2012ish if I recall correctly, and I always find interest in the corporate side of the news. Hell, I learned about the GM ignition switch fiasco here! All I’m saying is that, while those of us that can’t NOT read things we know will lead to turmoil should have more self control, there’s also a certain point of recognition that should be decided upon about what actually *needs* to be reported on. Does a ban on ICE vehicles 14 years down the line (potentially 3 gubernatorial changes) need to be reported? In todays climate, probably not. Does the UAW’s stance on vaccine mandates matter? Again, probably not.

            Sorry, I’ll stop griping, but I think I’ve got a decent number of people who agree with me here.

            Carry on.

          • 0 avatar
            Crossed Up

            @Time Healy: And I also have the freedom to unsubscribe. Which I am doing now, in reaction to this ANTI-SCICENCE “article.” Cars are based on science. This “article” is not.

            If I wanted to read RWJN propaganda, I’d resume subscribing to the Corvette site. Buh-Bye.

      • 0 avatar
        initialyee

        The problem is, this is totally clickbait. Opinion pieces like this is not in the spirit of the founding of this site. All this does is cause turmoil amongst the readership. It is completely unnecessary and ultimately a disappointment.

      • 0 avatar
        C5 is Alive

        “We don’t do this just for the clicks. We’re not that cynical.”

        Yeah, I’m going to call absolute bullshit on this. I doubt it’s out of cynicism, though; it’s utter desperation.

      • 0 avatar
        96redse5sp

        You’re not “covering” any issue here. You’re posting a partisan, political editorial with no indication or disclaimer advising us ahead of time. I like to read about cars. I have no interest in reading about anyone’s personal anti-vax beliefs. Not on an automobile website. And especially not written by anyone who’s pathologically uninformed.

        And if anyone at the TTAC needs a copy of the United Stares Constitution, please let me know, and I’ll send you a copy. At the very least, I can send you a link. Spoiler alert. Nobody here is fighting a First Amendment battle…

    • 0 avatar
      Matt Posky

      Not a fan of the First Amendment? Also how can the same article drive revenue while also shrinking my audience?

      Nobody asks me to write these and they don’t actually get more shares than articles about new models or other regulatory matters. I covered the topic because it’s a huge regulatory issue, important to me personally and people I know within the industry are telling me they’re terrified. When the problem goes away, and this becoming a colossal problem, I will happily move onto something else. I take no joy in having to read dehumanizing language in the comments section just because I don’t want people to be forced into doing something against their will.

      • 0 avatar
        CoastieLenn

        Matt, my follow on is awaiting moderation, but I agree with you on your story. The comments sections of these articles are proof positive that people are tired of reading/hearing about it, but like moth to a flame, can’t keep their comments internalized.

        • 0 avatar
          Matt Posky

          I feel your frustrations deeply. Holding these opinions has resulted in cruel treatment from people I thought I could count on and plenty of nasty language being thrown my way.

          But I think it’s more than important enough for everyone to make noise about. I rarely champion causes that fall outside the purview of consumer advocacy and feel this falls squarely into that category while also spilling over into dozens of others. I hope you’ll join the cause so all this can be put soundly behind us.

          In the meantime, I will look into the comment awaiting moderation.

          • 0 avatar
            CoastieLenn

            I completely understand. Fact is, this info is EVERYWHERE, surrounding every aspect of our lives. If you look thru any article related to COVID, bans, political persuasions, etc. you’ll find LOTS of people from all sides of the political spectrum that are LITERALLY begging for these kinds of articles to stop on a site about cars.

            In this era, people just want to read about cars, man. Cars and cars alone (any manner of four wheeled transport). Hell, start reporting on the new models of city busses?!

          • 0 avatar
            Arthur Dailey

            Matt, the vast majority of violent acts are committed by the anti-vax/anti-maskers. Why do they become so violent when asked to wear a mask in a public place? Wearing a mask for the time required to complete their transaction/shopping will not hurt them unless they have a very serious medical condition. And if they do then they can be accommodated through curbside pick-up etc. It seems strange that someone claiming that they are too ill to wear a mask can then commit a serious physical assault.

      • 0 avatar
        96redse5sp

        OMFG!?! Matt, don’t be an idiot. Yes, you’re entitled to your opinion. But please spare yourself the humiliation of talking about the First Amendment, when it’s hilariously clear that you’ve never read the First Amendment. Your blatherings here and the complaints they engender have NOTHING TO DO WITH THE FIRST AMENDMENT. Zero. Zip. Zilch.

        Before, I merely disagreed with you. Now I’m embarrassed for you.

        • 0 avatar
          slavuta

          96redse5sp,

          don’t melt already. He wrote, you read, or don’t read. Comment or don’t comment. You have the opinion, you have the platform, you have the time – manage. Don’t tell others what to do with their time and opinion.

    • 0 avatar
      Guythall

      So true… The political discourse does need to infect all conversation.

  • avatar
    theflyersfan

    It’s a Friday afternoon. Need clicks over the weekend I guess.

    • 0 avatar
      Tim Healey

      Nah, it’s not about weekend clicks. It’s a big story. Vaccine mandates are going to affect every industry, whether you’re against them (as Matt is) or for them (as I am, with some reservations). Including automotive.

      Last I checked, TTAC has long covered the business/manufacturing side of this industry, in addition to car news and reviews.

      • 0 avatar
        jkross22

        Tim, This isn’t that different than what occurred at TTAC during the GM bailout/bk. Everyone here had strong opinions. Lots of verbal daggers thrown, but little attempt was made to try to find common ground.

        People usually don’t respond well when they’re afraid, being attacked or think they’re going to die. Sadly, Cov 19 is the perfect storm of this. Many of us aren’t behaving rationally.

        Commenters complaining that this has nothing to do with cars aren’t willing to recognize that this (Cov, vaccines, mandates, vaccine hesitancy) has everything to do with everything.

        It’s like arguing with people in CA that Newsom has done a terrible job. They’ll never acknowledge that. I haven’t talked with one Democrat who thinks he’s done a good job. They all know he’s a fool. But their fears are causing many of them to re-hire him for a job they know he sucks at doing.

        C’est la vie.

  • avatar
    FreedMike

    TTAC gets one click, and one click only, from me on this article, and it’s to say the following:

    1) This site has never been where I go to get political news, and it never will be. All these “pieces” do is get everyone who goes to this site royally p*ssed at each other. Enough already.
    2) This writer has beaten this drum time after time now. We know where he stands. Enough already.
    3) If TTAC has to post political stuff, then fine. Pick someone who can write about it without using inaccurate and misleading headlines and ledes (which were featured on yesterday’s rant), and doesn’t call the people who disagree on this topic “insane,” or “foolish and cowardly.”

    FreedMike, out.

    • 0 avatar
      CoastieLenn

      Tim? Matt? See what I mean? (Not about the writing quality, but about the purpose of most of your readership.)

      • 0 avatar
        EBFlex

        “FreedMike, out.”

        “Tim? Matt? See what I mean? (Not about the writing quality, but about the purpose of most of your readership.)”

        No loss…he’d kill his own puppy if it resulted forced vaccinations.

    • 0 avatar
      Tim Healey

      FreedMike, I respect you because you’re always reasonable, but as I said elsewhere, we don’t run these for a cynical clickbait ploy.

      It’s a big story affecting all industries, including automotive, and since we allow for editorializing here, Matt chose to input his opinion. I disagree with him, and I think those who oppose mandates are misunderstanding personal choice — your ability to make a personal choice stops when it can negatively affect others — as well as the policy (some workers won’t be forced to quit should they choose not to vaxx, but they will be required to test) but Matt is entitled to his opinion.

      I will edit factual errors — and he and I had a strong internal disagreement last month over whether an edit I made was about a fact or opinion — but I will not intentionally quash opinion, even if I don’t agree. Not unless it’s based on something clearly not true (something obvious, like flat earth conspiracy, for example), bigoted, clearly intentionally intellectually dishonest, or clearly trolling. I don’t think any of those apply to Matt’s argument here. Even if you think he’s wrong about personal choice affecting others, he’s arguing in good faith.

      In other words, I had no reason to challenge Matt’s argument, and I would’ve done so internally if I did.

      More to your point, I get that people are tired of this topic. But it’s important to the industry, and all industries right now. It’s unavoidable.

      I will say this whether it’s an argument I agree with or not — just because you disagree with or find something distasteful, it doesn’t mean the post shouldn’t run/story shouldn’t be covered/opinion should quashed.

      • 0 avatar
        EchoChamberJDM

        Been a fan of the site for many many years, but I miss all the reviews of autos and associated products. When did it become such a political site?

        • 0 avatar
          bumpy ii

          Clickbait pays the bills, and reactionary politics is what the loudmouth commenters like to yap about.

          There is also a broader reality that blog-style sites are in decline as a form of socialization, and the North American vehicle market has become increasingly homogenized (and therefore uninteresting to the “everything was better when I was young” types that often gravitate to automobile fandom).

    • 0 avatar
      Tim Healey

      Also, which articles were inaccurate or misleading? Please let me know, here or offline, so I can fix any factual errors.

      • 0 avatar
        Luke42

        @Tim Healy,
        > Also, which articles were inaccurate or misleading? Please let me know, here or offline, so I can fix any factual errors.

        Matt Posky appears to unaware that the question of freedom vs vaccine mandates was settled by SCOTUS in 1905:
        https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts

        • 0 avatar
          slavuta

          You’re misreading the print.
          1. This is a decision, not a law and can be overturned.
          2. It only states that somebody can mandate vaccination. But it is not a law that permits FEDERAL government to mandate vaccination.

  • avatar
    JD-Shifty

    So quit if you don’t like it, what’s the big deal?

    • 0 avatar
      Matt Posky

      The big deal is people shouldn’t be forced to quit their jobs and, if they do, the resulting economic fallout is going to be untenable.

      • 0 avatar
        mcs

        What about pilots diagnosed with depression? Should they be allowed to fly? What about a food service worker with hepatitis? Should they be allowed to work? To operate a forklift, the government requires a health certificate that won’t be issued if the applicant has diabetes or high blood pressure. Health requirements have existed in the workplace for a long time. It’s nothing new. Washington required his troops to be inoculated against smallpox in 1777. With 378m doses so far with very few issues. Travel to the clinic is probably more dangerous.

      • 0 avatar
        JD-Shifty

        no one is forcing them to quit. this is silly.

      • 0 avatar
        Luke42

        @Matt Posky:
        > The big deal is people shouldn’t be forced to quit their jobs and, if they do, the resulting economic fallout is going to be untenable.

        Oh, come off it.

        Republicans have been campaigning to remove worker protections for decades. Anyone can be fired at any time for any reason, because you guys don’t like unions.

        And suddenly all y’all are in favor of worker protections now that vaccines are involved?

        You can’t have it both ways. Are you suddenly in favor of making it hard to fire people all of the sudden?!? LOL, it’s a little late for that.

        The game is being played by the rules you guys made, so you should have thought about the unintended consequences.

  • avatar
    SCE to AUX

    Last week, I had to fill out a mandatory company survey asking about vaccine status. Seems to be paving the way for a mandated vaccine.

    I’m very pro-vaccine, but mandating it will produce countless legal challenges. Some thoughtful coworkers of mine are not vaccinated (for health, religious, political, or mis-informed reasons), and they might just walk out if a mandate happens.

    On the other hand, I don’t see the difference between a vaccine mandate and a required background check for some jobs. Pedophiles can’t work with kids, and excess DUIs can prevent you from getting or keeping a CDL. Employers need to show their workforce and customers that their people are safe to be around.

    • 0 avatar
      mcs

      Here’s a requirement for a medical certificate for a pilot:

      https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/offices/aam/ame/guide/app_process/exam_tech/item39/et/

      If they can require this, they can require virus testing or vaccinations. Note, it is an option for the applicant, but.. to quote the manual, if it “is not performed, the response to
      Item 39 may be based on direct observation or history.”

      Other requirements:

      https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/offices/aam/ame/guide/app_process/exam_tech/item55/amd/

      https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/chapter-I/subchapter-D/part-67/subpart-B/section-67.113

  • avatar
    indi500fan

    The govt vax mandate is a “jobs” program for attorneys.
    This will be litigated at so many levels and locations … will be a Merry Christmas for the law firms.

  • avatar
    initialyee

    WOW.

    I’ll put up with all the anti-EV posts and sentiments. But the spread of purposeful, misinformation through “opinion” pieces is the sand in the line.

    I’m truly disappointed. This is a site that I would visit multiple times a day, for the last decade. Its one thing to post biased articles on the automotive industry, but its another thing to step into the political arena. There’s plenty of other websites that do that – I don’t believe that was the intention of the founders of TTAC.

  • avatar
    toronado

    I don’t really understand the issue. Don’t want the vaccine? Fine, take a test. If that option was not there it’s a whole different story.

  • avatar
    SCE to AUX

    1st Amendment limitations, per Wikipedia:

    ‘Freedom of speech and expression, therefore, may not be recognized as being absolute, and common limitations or boundaries to freedom of speech relate to libel, slander, obscenity, pornography, sedition, incitement, fighting words, classified information, copyright violation, trade secrets, food labeling, non-disclosure agreements, the right to privacy, dignity, the right to be forgotten, public security, and perjury. Justifications for such include the harm principle, proposed by John Stuart Mill in On Liberty, which suggests that “the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others.”‘

    That last part seems pretty relevant here.

    Despite what some Americans think, your Constitutional rights are *not* unlimited.

    • 0 avatar
      ttacgreg

      Bravo!

      “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.” This prohibits government from abridging aforementioned actions taken by individuals or groups.

      ” libel, slander, obscenity, pornography, sedition, incitement, fighting words, classified information, copyright violation, trade secrets, food labeling, non-disclosure agreements, the right to privacy, dignity, the right to be forgotten, public security, and perjury.” These are all actions that in fact harm people, and have nothing to do with free expression of viewpoints and ideas.

  • avatar
    Kendahl

    Vaccines work. They worked for smallpox. They worked for polio. They work for influenza if the vaccine makers correctly guess this year’s strain. There is no reason to believe the COVID-19 vaccines won’t work. That even includes ones from Russia and China where the government is likely to trade higher risk of complications for faster immunity to the disease.

    It’s said that life is hard and it’s harder when you’re stupid. With COVID-19 loose, it stands to be shorter, too. The only “good” news about the current situation is that the vaccinated still enjoy pretty good (not perfect) immunity while the stupids are suffering. I no longer care about them.

    What does frighten me are the prospects for children, too young for vaccination, who are being exposed to COVID-19 in school. (If there ever was a time for home schooling, it’s now.) I wonder how bad it will have to get before parents begin to say to the unvaccinated who won’t even wear masks, “My kid’s right not to get sick and die trumps your right to infect him or her with your deadly disease.”

    • 0 avatar
      CoastieLenn

      @kendahl I definitely see what you’re saying here and I completely agree. That last sentence though… it implies that there’s a few innate guarantees:
      1) that your child *will* get COVID,
      2) the unvaccinated *will* get COVID,
      3) that if your child *does* get COVID, they got it from someone UNVACCINATED, and not you or anyone else that’s vaccinated.

      Don’t forget that just because you’re vaccinated, does NOT mean that you don’t have or transmit COVID. My kids are just as likely to get COVID from me with my vaccine as they are from someone that hasnt had the vaccine.

      • 0 avatar
        Kendahl

        The delta variant is so contagious that, if anyone in the classroom is infected, he or she will almost certainly infect the rest unless they are vaccinated. Back when teachers were complaining that it was too dangerous for them unless they were vaccinated, my reaction was that it was also too dangerous for the children.

        You can’t transmit COVID to your kids unless you contract it yourself, first. Vaccination makes your contracting it far less likely.

      • 0 avatar
        dal20402

        You *can* get COVID, get sick, or even die after the vaccine.

        It’s just far less likely that you’ll get sick and die. And if you don’t get sick you’re far less likely to transmit the virus to others.

        I can only repeat over and over (and any data source you like will confirm this):

        (1) The country is about half vaxed, total. But:
        (2) Well over 90% of people who are hospitalized are unvaxed. And, worse:
        (3) Fully 99% of people who die are unvaxed.

        The jab way, way, way reduces both your own risk and your likelihood of being a transmission source.

        Meanwhile, I’m hanging out in my city where well over 80% are vaxed, and our case rates are staying pretty low even though the rest of our state is currently a dumpster fire.

        • 0 avatar
          EBFlex

          You are patently incorrect when you say that the rushed vaccine significantly reduces the likelihood of you being a transmission source.

          People that have received the rushed vaccine can EASILY contract covid and EASILY spread covid.

          https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/08/20/1029628471/highly-vaccinated-israel-is-seeing-a-dramatic-surge-in-new-covid-cases-heres-why

          • 0 avatar
            dal20402

            Yes, people who have the vaccine can spread. But they do so much less than people who don’t have the vaccine. Your link doesn’t claim otherwise.

        • 0 avatar
          slavuta

          Good read for you:

          Israel: “There are so many breakthrough infections that they dominate and most of the hospitalized patients are actually vaccinated,”

          https://www.science.org/news/2021/08/grim-warning-israel-vaccination-blunts-does-not-defeat-delta

      • 0 avatar
        slavuta

        He also forgot that getting vaccinated does not guarantee against death and serious illness from both, vaccine and covid.

        And he also said about Trump while we know that most antivax people are liberal Phds and Blacks, both are hardly pro-Trump.
        I have so many Trump supporters here – all vaxxed. My bro is Phd, classical liberal and pro-Trump and not vaxxed. Go figure.

    • 0 avatar
      EBFlex

      “ Vaccines work. They worked for smallpox. They worked for polio.”

      How long did it take to develop abs fine tune the polio vaccine to make it safe? I’ll give you a hint, almost 100 years.

      So stop comparing the rushed covid vaccines to vaccines that took decades to develop.

  • avatar

    If vaccine works why Congress is hiding behind the wall? From “undocumented” migrants? youtube.com/watch?v=fvPpAPIIZyo

    • 0 avatar
      slavuta

      Or, why this mandate does not apply to the government, their servants and POST office? Mailman are the ones who goes door to door. unvaxxed!!!! Interesting.

      Also, Biden said, “we need to protect vaccinated from unvaccinated”. Interesting

  • avatar
    carbon fiber

    Hi Matt,

    Longtime reader, not poster, here.

    COVID aside, and more generally, I found something you said to be incredibly concerning.

    “As an American, I always thought the whole premise of the country was predicated upon the shared belief that personal liberties and freedom of choice trump everything else.”

    That obviously cannot be. There are few if any functioning societies where personal liberties and freedom of choice trump everything else.

    One may debate where the limits of those liberties and freedom of choice begin or end, but there are limits. They do not trump everything else. That is a concerning belief and concerning system of belief.

    And if that was not meant so absolutely, why was it written so absolutely?

    Best wishes.

  • avatar
    ajla

    Vaccine mandates are 100% legal and constitutional when they are passed through a state or federal legislature. I will say that I find it a little odd that AFAIK no state has gone very far in passing a statewide mandate. It seems like Illinois, Washington, Vermont, Hawaii, and Oregon could get it through if the desire was there.

    I’d also expect that *banning* vaccine mandates is also 100% legal and constitutional when they are passed through a state or federal legislature, although there’s less precedent on it.

    Outside of those two statements above it is 100% legal for a company to mandate vaccinations for employees.

    However, the murkier question right now is can the executive branch use a regulatory agency to enforce a COVID vaccine requirement across all industries and workplace situations (assuming the company has over 100 employees)? I don’t believe such a thing has been done in the past and OSHA has had ETSs struck down in court before. I’m not a judge or an oracle so I don’t have the answer but I don’t think either side will be seeing their arguments easily glide through the courts.

    • 0 avatar
      Lou_BC

      @ajla – in Canada we can’t force someone against their will to be vaccinated but one can legally curtail or limit public activity based upon vaccination status. You have a choice, vaccination or restrictions on public activity. That does extend to worksites.
      Legal scholars reviewed our laws and found that provincial governments can pass such legislation. Healthcare is a provincial jurisdiction so the federal government can’t unilaterally pass a national law unless it applies strictly to interprovincial travel, travel across national boundaries or federal job sites and military. The legal scholars that did the review were certain that any laws would be challenged before the courts but doubted that any antivax/antimask proponent would win.

      • 0 avatar
        slavuta

        Loo

        I can argue with ajla here using the info from official sources. You, however, have one thing correct here – everyone vaccinated has consented to experimental medication.

        And mandating one now is illegal or at leas immoral, because in US currently there is no actual FDA-authorized vaccine. It exists only on paper. And when Joe Biden says, “it is authorized, what else do you need to know?”, he is a f-ck face deceptive bastarrd.

    • 0 avatar
      slavuta

      You have to add that legal/illegal applies only to proven medications. Unproven fall under Nuremberg Code
      http://www.cirp.org/library/ethics/nuremberg/

      And in case of US, we still have only experimental vaccines distributed under EUA. Approved Comirnaty vaccine will not be available for awhile. FDA has sent 2 letters – 1 to Pfizer – extension of EUA. And one to Biontech – approval for Biontech Comirnaty. It will be produced in Mainz Germany. And will not likely be here in a long time. I actually will be able to find more on this – when Pfizer will start producing Comirnaty here. I have some contacts.

      • 0 avatar
        ajla

        The Nuremberg Code is not a binding law in the United States.

        • 0 avatar
          slavuta

          “The right to avoid the imposition of human experimentation is fundamentally rooted in the Nuremberg Code of 1947. has been ratified by the 1964 Declaration of Helsinki and further codified in the US. Code of Federal Regulations. In addition to the US regarding itself as bound by these provisions, these principles were adopted by the FDA in its regulations requiring the informed consent of human subjects for medical research. It is unlawful to conduct medical research even in the case of an emergency unless steps are taken to secure. informed consent of all participants.

          Article 6, section 3: In no case should a collective community agreement or the consent of a community leader or other authority substitute for an individual’s informed consent.”

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            @Slavuto –

            Reaching there, you truly are.

            Everyone that has been vaccinated to date has consented to vaccination. That shoots your whole argument down.

            Why would one cite judgments made by a war crimes tribunal?
            You have personal experience being pursued for war crimes?

          • 0 avatar
            ajla

            What you are writing is incorrect. The Nuremberg Code and Declaration of Helsinki are not binding laws in the United States. FDA regulations are not binding on the US legislature. There are FDA regulations about waiving consent requirements in emergency situations.

            accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/cfrsearch.cfm?fr=50.24

            No one is going to successfully argue against vaccine mandates using the things you have cited.

  • avatar
    Lou_BC

    Mr.Posky does a better job this time with presenting the facts of the story and more clearly speaks to his beliefs separately. That’s an improvement. . BUT..

    A few bones to pick though:

    “Washington Post poll claiming 70 percent of unvaccinated workers would simply abandon their positions”
    Yes, I know that’s a quote but it’s an attempt to make the antivaxxer crowd look larger.
    Statistically antivaxxers are a minority depending on how red they are or the state they live in. The average for the unvaccinated sits around 30% of the population. What’s 70% of 30%?

    As far as fracturing the UAW’s membership… you quit your job you typically don’t remain a member.

    “He also confusingly stated that vaccinated workers need to be “protected” from the unvaccinated”

    That’s not confusion. The biggest pool for SARS-CoV-2 is the unvaccinated. That’s a huge petri dish incubating mutations and current strains. As long as there is large communal viral load, that puts everyone at risk.

    “Now they’re starting to talk about strikes focused on vaccine and mask mandates”
    Stop trying to make it sound like the MAJORITY is against masks or vaccines. It’s the vocal minority.

  • avatar
    dal20402

    I often defend unions here, but right now I’m going to criticize them: I think their collective decision to pander to anti-vax misinformation is the wrong one. It is in the vast majority of their members’ interest for vaccination rates in their workplaces to be as high as possible. The union should throw the anti-vaxxers overboard and make sure that the majority of the workers, those who recognize the protective value of the vax and want to stay healthy on the job, get what they need.

    • 0 avatar
      dal20402

      Oh, and: the idea of quitting a well-paying job you otherwise like because you have to get this vaccine is (no polite way to say it) totally bat$hit. The idea that anyone is considering it just shows how pervasive the misinformation is among some groups of people.

    • 0 avatar
      Lou_BC

      @dal20402 – I suspect that the UAW is still figuring out collective agreement language around lay-offs, resignations, firing etc. Another aspect is strictly political. UAW executives are going to look at this and determine how damaging this might be to their own elected terms in office. If 3 million or so employees quit, that’s damaging to the employer’s and the union’s finances.

      I too struggle with understanding what makes people prefer loosing their jobs or their lives over receiving a safe medication.

  • avatar
    Guythall

    “… majority of Covid infected patients who have filled the ICUs across the South are not vaxed…”

    Understatement of the week.

  • avatar
    JD-Shifty

    but this is trump’s vaccine. are you saying he isn’t good at making vaccines??

  • avatar
    Art Vandelay

    Watching the 9-11 stuff and seeing how United we were, I can’t fathom what happened over the next 20 years to get here.

    • 0 avatar
      SCE to AUX

      You’ll recall that unity lasted about a day before cracks developed.

      Starting with the JFK assassination, mistrust and conspiracy theories have become an American staple for each generation.

      With the loss of critical thinking, people trust the story they like rather than the story that makes sense. It’s much more interesting to promote a conspiracy or a false narrative than the simple truth.

      • 0 avatar
        ajla

        Unity has never been the natural state of the country.
        There was an armed resistance against George Washington about 8 years after the Treaty of Paris. I can point to major strife in any decade.

    • 0 avatar
      EBFlex

      “Watching the 9-11 stuff and seeing how United we were, I can’t fathom what happened over the next 20 years to get here.“

      Liberals happened. They don’t want people united. They don’t want people happy.

      They want absolute control and will make people’s lives miserable if they stand in the way. They hate the idea of independence. Nothing short of total dependence will make them happy. Hence all the draconian control measures surrounding covid

    • 0 avatar
      dal20402

      The leadership in power on 9/11 used it as a flimsy excuse to begin a completely unrelated and disastrous military campaign that turned out to be the most divisive event until an orange huckster came down an escalator and slandered all of Mexico 12 years later.

  • avatar
    OldWingGuy

    I see Mr. Posky still contributing. I have no respect for this fellow after he called a large portion of the population cowards and fools in a previous article. This is uncalled for, particularly from a contributing editor. Disagreement and discussion is a vital part of a free society, but name calling such as this adds no value. TTAC, you should be ashamed for putting up with this from a contributing editor.
    It is foolish to try rationalizing with the anti-vax, anti-mask crowd. It has become a near-religious belief system (try convincing a Christian fundamentalist that no, the Noah’s Arc story is simply not credible).
    I look forward to TTAC leaving behind the political nonsense and getting back to, oh I don’t know….cars perhaps.

  • avatar
    Astigmatism

    “As an American, I always thought the whole premise of the country was predicated upon the shared belief that personal liberties and freedom of choice trump everything else.”

    I’m sorry you felt this way, but this is not “the whole premise of the country” and it never was. Every law is, in some ways, a limit on personal liberties and freedom of choice: you cannot choose to dump toxic waste into a local well, you cannot choose to drive drunk, you cannot commit securities fraud, and you cannot choose to, as the song says, walk into a deli and urinate on the cheese. More to the point, you cannot choose to send your children to school without them receiving a dozen or so vaccines, nor can you operate a business without adhering to OSHA rules and regulations.

    None of this is new, and, other than the fact that some have sought to gain partisan advantage out of attacking measures to limit the spread of the Coronavirus, none of this is controversial.

    • 0 avatar
      ajla

      “I’m sorry you felt this way, but this is not ‘the whole premise of the country’ and it never was.”

      Correct.

      “nor can you operate a business without adhering to OSHA rules and regulations.”

      Nor are new or enhanced OSHA rules and regulations immune from judicial oversight.

      • 0 avatar
        Astigmatism

        You are absolutely correct, but not relevant to my point. Besides, I’m not sure what legislative limit you see that would prohibit OSHA from mandating that employers have their employees tested for a deadly, contagious virus that threatens the health of other employees; and if OSHA can do that, then it can mandate that employers have _a subset of_ their employees tested for a deadly, contagious virus.

        • 0 avatar
          ajla

          “Besides, I’m not sure what legislative limit you see…”

          The final verbiage of the rule doesn’t even exist yet and I’m not a judge. However, OSHA has lost in court before and I would be surprised if the final version of the regulation easily glides through the courts (or is easily struck down). But we’ll see.

          For now, I wouldn’t consider the plan at the same level as laws against drunk driving or school vaccine requirements. YMMV.

  • avatar
    Good ole dayz

    If you are willing to have an open mind, listen to the ENTIRETY of Dr. Peter McCullough’s 8/20/21 presentation (he has stellar medical credentials).

    I don’t think this site allows posting of links, so got to: Rumble / KanekoatheGreat channel / Dr. Peter McCullough: Full Lecture On COVID-19, Treatment, And Vaccines

    Listen and then draw your own conclusions. But I do implore you to listen to the entire presentation – you’ll then understand why I “implore.”

    • 0 avatar
      Lou_BC

      @Good ole dayz – I ran your link. The alleged “Doctor” you cited was “lecturing” on Alex Jones InfoWars.

      Quick Pro-Tip….That isn’t remotely close to an accurate unbiased source of information. See “Pizzagate”.

      • 0 avatar
        Good ole dayz

        Lou-BC:

        FWIW, I’ve never been an Alex Jones acolyte.

        You clicked on the wrong link. Click on the one for which I gave the title (“Full lecture …”).

        At the beginning they give Dr. McCullough’s credentials, or you can conduct a separate internet search of same. Stellar credentials. As said, watch the presentation, then judge.

        We’re in an era of blatant media misinformation from the “mainstream media.” Trump colluded with Russia – false. CO2 is a pollutant and “climate change” presenting an existential threat – false. Hunter Biden’s laptop is Russian disinformation – false. Covid-19 jumped species and was transmitted to humans in a Wuhan wet market – false. The Pfizer vaccine is fully approved by the FDA – false. Covid-19 is a deadly threat (it has in excess of a 99% recovery rate, albeit presenting a higher danger for people with certain comorbidities) – so false.

        We all have to gather as much information as we can, and then use some critical thinking to independently analyze. We cannot rely upon what the media tells us.

        • 0 avatar
          Lou_BC

          @Good ole dayz – LOL.

          I don’t get my information from the media. I access scientific/medical data bases, journals and health professionals.

          I take it that you don’t understand the scientific process.

          I’ve posted multiple links to scientific journals citing two separate meta-analysis of data on masks. I’ve also posted links about vaccines also from reputable scientific journals. Go search the past several Posky screeds. You’ll find them.

          Once again, odd how individuals like you ooze out of the woodwork to post your bullsh!t. I’ve never seen you on here. Are you going to post links to star trek again? or famous science fiction writers?

          Unless you have a new peer reviewed scientific article from an accredited journal for me to look at, don’t waste my time replying.

          • 0 avatar
            Good ole dayz

            Lou-BC:

            Am I supposed to be impressed by you and you’re responses?

            I posted a video presentation to an esteemed Doctor who’s PUBLISHED numerous peer-reviewed articles, and advised people to watch and draw their own conclusions.

            You didn’t even have the wherewithal to click on the correct link. I replied in good faith to redirect you to it.

            I also then provided verifiable examples of how the “mainstream media” gushes “misinformation.” Not least of which currently is the lie that the Pfizer vaccine if fully approved by the FDA (it’s operating under an extended EUA; the “approved” vaccine isn’t available in the U.S.).

            Apparently instead of watching it and then responding on the merits, you respond with insults, assumptions that I don’t understand the scientific method, self-appointed claims of medical expertise by reading scientific journals, and so on.

            Bluster and insults are the refuge of trolls, cultists and those who are not confident that they can support their position when exposed to evidence and honest debate.

            Facts: The “vaccines” are still experimental.

            Their effectiveness (such as it is) declines precipitously (hence the “booster shots”) — even that initial effectiveness is so poor that the CDC just changed its definition of “vaccine” to eliminate references to [providing] “immunity.”

            Esteemed doctors, including the inventor of the mRNA technology (Dr. Malone) have been blowing they … whistle.

            The risk of death from the CCP Virus is negligible, less than 1%. It is eminently treatable with preventatives (Vitamin D and Zinc) and therapeutics (HCQ and Ivermectin).

            Back to you. Rant away …

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            Oh look. You replied.

            @Good ole dazed……..

            Insults?

            “Once again, odd how individuals like you ooze out of the woodwork to post your bullsh!t”

            That’s an observation. Every time there has been a Posky rant about vaccines/masks some new name pops up and disappears.

            I said, “I take it that you don’t understand the scientific process.”

            The moment anyone talks about Ivermectin or hydrochloroquine as a COVID 19 treatment, they are not following any scientific process since both drugs don’t work. Any studies that say they work have been debunked.

            “self-appointed claims of medical expertise by reading scientific journals”

            LOL.

            One does not self-appoint professional credentials.

            Some doctor ranting on some video and appearing on infowars isn’t what I’d take as a reliable source.

            I had a real hard time finding the dude’s video.
            “KanekoatheGreat” is a rightwing nut job.

            Why don’t you cite from: CINAHL Complete , PubMed, Medline (EBSCO host), Ovid, or UpToDate. Those are all professional healthcare databases.

            I find it ironic that the right calls those on the left “snowflakes” for not being able to handle any heat.

            Better luck next time.

            You work in the cubicle adjacent to Slavuto?

          • 0 avatar
            Good ole dayz

            My response to you (in part): “Bluster and insults are the refuge of trolls, cultists and those who are not confident that they can support their position when exposed to evidence and honest debate.”

            Ah, Lou-BC, by your response to that, thank you for proving my point(s)!

    • 0 avatar
      mcs

      ” (he has stellar medical credentials).”

      Losing your medical license is “stellar”. He’s a cardiologist. WTF.

      • 0 avatar
        Lou_BC

        @mcs – These trolls just pop up spreading disinformation.

        Baylor Medical Center and its affiliated institutions sued Dr. Peter McCullough for claiming that he was a staff member and insinuating that he represented them.

        Anyone claiming to seek “honest debate” would start from a position of scientifically verified best practice evidence.

        • 0 avatar
          Good ole dayz

          P.S. Here are links to Dr. McCullough’s testimony before the United States Senate, and to one of his published articles (NIH). It would seem that people in a position to know acknowledge his credentials:

          https://www.hsgac.senate.gov/hearings/early-outpatient-treatment-an-essential-part-of-a-covid-19-solution

          https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7410805/

      • 0 avatar
        Good ole dayz

        MCS and Lou-BC below:

        Have you a verifiable source for the alleged loss of medical license by Dr. McCullough?

        I was aware of Baylor’s lawsuit; it appears to analogous to a SLAPP suit. BS in other words.

        >>”Anyone claiming to seek “honest debate” would start from a position of scientifically verified best practice evidence.”

        You keep making assertions but cite nothing to support your position. Typical Leftist tactic. Not impressed.

        Using a non-Google browser like Duck-Duck-Go (to avoid censorship), check out: Dr. McCullough; AND Dr. Robert Malone (inventor of mRNA technology); AND Dr. Mike Yeadon (formerly of Pfizer) AND American’s Frontline Doctors … why would they put themselves out there if what they were saying didn’t have merit?

        Or how about: “France’s long-time vaccine policy chief: Covid policy is ‘completely stupid’ and ‘unethical’ – here’s the URL: https://www.ukcolumn.org/video/frances-long-time-vaccine-policy-chief-covid-policy-is-completely-stupid-and-unethical

        You accuse me of being a troll, yet all you do is fling characterizations and assertions without backup, almost as if you’re troll for Pfizer or the CCP.

        • 0 avatar
          Lou_BC

          “You keep making assertions but cite nothing to support your position.”

          LOL

          I’ve posted multiple links to sources. Two meta-analysis of mask studies as well as vaccines. Wade through Posky’s last few screeds on vaccine and mask mandates.

          “Why don’t you cite from: CINAHL Complete , PubMed, Medline (EBSCO host), Ovid, or UpToDate. Those are all professional healthcare databases.”

          Do your own research.

          I’m done wasting my time with you!

          • 0 avatar
            Good ole dayz

            >>“Why don’t you cite from: CINAHL Complete , PubMed, Medline (EBSCO host), Ovid, or UpToDate. Those are all professional healthcare databases.”

            Looks like you’re engaged in some psychological projection old boy. I looked up in the thread and all I saw from you was some reference to an alleged study in Bangladesh (no cite provided).

            I’ve at least provided direct links to Senate testimony and a publication on an NIH website and names that can be readily researched (at least on un-censored browsers, e.g., not Google).

            You sir are a blowhard – huffing and puffing and regurgitating Covid cult talking points, claiming scientific basis for same, but not producing the goods.

            Yes, I am glad that you are done with me. You’re wasting mine and everyone else’s time.

  • avatar
    Jeff S

    How about article on how car manufacturers can get back to normal production and how to end the Covid-19 epidemic. I would like to see an end to this pandemic and be able to take delivery on my new hybrid Maverick in the next few months but if people are refusing to get vaccinated and refusing to wear masks when out in public we will continue on with quarenteening ourselves thru next year with shortages of food and other consumer goods. My employer is requiring me to provide information on if I have been vaccinated, what type of vaccine, if I have had a 2nd vaccine, and when my last vaccine was. If I want to keep my job I have to provide that information. Should I take my employer to court or should I just provide the information and be glad I have a job? Is my personal freedom to not get a vaccinated and or to wear a mask out in public more important than the overall health of the public? When do we get back to normal if not enough people get vaccinated and new variations of Covid 19 keep emerging? The question should be what are you willing to do to get back to normal?

  • avatar
    EBFlex

    Anyone looking to avoid this outrageous power grab just has to identify as an illegal alien because according to this installed administration, an illegal cannot get covid thus the vaccine is not required.

    Trust the science.

  • avatar
    96redse5sp

    “As an American, I always thought the whole premise of the country was predicated upon the shared belief that personal liberties and freedom of choice trump everything else.”

    No. No you didn’t. You have never truly believed that. You’re being dishonest and insincere. As a general principle, you know that that’s simply not true, unless you’re a true anarchist. Do you oppose all laws? Are you against all licensing, of every type? You support abolishing the needs of professional licenses, driving licenses, etc?

    How about copyright laws? You OK if I take this editorial and everything you’ve ever written, remove your name in the byline and sell your work as my own? An anarchistic certainly would support that.

    We have laws against thousands of things such as homicide, vehicular homicide, DWI, rape, statutory rape, child pornography, robbery, counterfeiting, assault, libel and slander. All those laws restrict people’s freedoms. Did you always think that all those laws violated the whole premise of our country? Because if you did, I’d be interested in reading more of your editorials.

    But the truth of the matter is, you know that for our country to survive and thrive, there are occasions when certain limits to be placed on our actions and behavior. That’s the only way we can exist inland co-exist…

    • 0 avatar
      Lou_BC

      @96redse5sp – I fully agree. Freedom comes with responsibility. Laws exist to protect the greater good.

      “Holocaust survivor and psychiatrist Viktor Frankl: “Freedom is in danger of degenerating into mere arbitrariness unless it is lived in terms of responsibleness.””

  • avatar
    Master Baiter

    Commenters keep talking about laws against this or that, but what Biden is doing here is not signing a law passed by Congress–he’s using OSHA to smuggle his policy in through the back door.

    If you are a person of principle, it matters how you do things, not just what you do.

    • 0 avatar
      jkross22

      If Americans cared about this, they would have railed about it when Obama and Trump and now Biden have used executive orders. Most people just don’t care… as long as its their team doing it.

      Most of us don’t seem to understand that congress hasn’t done its constitutionally mandated job in decades.

  • avatar
    slavuta

    “Joe Biden said he wouldn’t make vaccines mandatory less than 10 months ago”

    Actually, prior to that he said, “who would want to have that vaccine in their body?”

  • avatar
    Jeff S

    Yes let’s not get vaccines and not wear masks because it is against our civil liberties. Who cares if others get sick and die it is only me that matters. Your rights don’t matter it is only my rights even if it is at the expense of others health and safety. We should eliminate speed limits, seat belt requirements, and driver’s licenses because I don’t like them and it infringes upon my rights. The rest of you don’t matter only I matter.

    • 0 avatar
      ajla

      “seat belt requirements, and driver’s licenses”

      Seat belt laws were extremely controversial, it took decades for them to pass and in the late 1980s Nebraska and Massachusetts actually *did* repeal their seat belt laws.

      pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3354739/

      nytimes.com/1986/12/07/nyregion/repeal-of-
      law-on-seat-belts-is-sought.html

      Even today seat belt laws are a patchwork of rules depending on the state.

      For driver’s license the first state to pass them for nonprofessional operators was New Jersey in 1913. South Dakota was the final one in 1954. The Model T came out in 1908.

      Even drunk driving laws were controversial and rejected for years by some states through notions of personal freedom.

      latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1985-01-26-mn-
      13688-story.html

      This is not to make a judgement on any traffic or medical laws but I do think the America of 2021 is not as unique as some of you believe.

  • avatar
    Jeff S

    My point is not so much about driver’s licenses and seat belts but If each one of us just thinks about our rights at the expense of others health and safety,

    • 0 avatar
      ajla

      “but If each one of us just thinks about our rights at the expense of others health and safety”

      And my point is that caring about the health and safety of strangers has very rarely (never?) been the natural order of things and what is going on right now is not unique.

  • avatar
    JD-Shifty

    1500 people per day are still dying for covid, almost all unvaccinated. the problem solves itself eventually.

  • avatar
    el scotto

    I’ll make this real simple. Most of us who have gotten our vaccines and are wearing masks thought it was going to be OK for a while. Then COVID rates spiked again. Back to masks at work and masks indoors at most places. Most of us who have been vaccinated say to the unvaccinated, “get your damn shots so the COVID infection rate can go down.” This isn’t rocket science people; unless Fox News and Infowars are your main news sources. I went to happy hour on Friday so I missed what President Biden said. -Sidebar- regardless of you voted in the election, the duly elected president should addressed as such. -Sidebar over- The federal government will end up requiring its employees to be vaccinated or tested on a weekly basis. I see the federal government requiring anyone doing business in a federal building or on a federal installation to be vaccinated? You think this is great vast government overreach? Your local school board has similar requirments for children.

    • 0 avatar
      mcs

      “You think this is great vast government overreach?”

      I wonder how many individuals that have received a draft notice and had to go off to war would call a mask mandate or weekly covid testing government overreach.

    • 0 avatar
      slavuta

      Unvaxxed just don’t want to break the The Nuremberg Code
      http://www.cirp.org/library/ethics/nuremberg/

      your speech might be classified as a war crime

      • 0 avatar
        Lou_BC

        @slavuta – Nuremberg? War crime? WTF?

        Tell your puppet masters at the Kremlin that their most recent brainstorm for you to recite isn’t strong enough to give a flea a blow job.

        • 0 avatar
          slavuta

          Lou,

          I know, for Canada war crimes is nothing special. You did plenty of those. And you also gave cover to all the nazis and their collaborators, from justice their victims deserve.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            Blatant troll there. We’re in the process of extraditing a nazi war criminal. I’d like to see your evidence on protecting them. Every country in the world with a post WW2 interest protected some scientists etc. that had a strategic benefit. Canada post WW2 was an English colony so blame goes there 1st.

        • 0 avatar
          slavuta

          I am a troll just because you don’t like what I said.

          “We’re in the process of extraditing a nazi war criminal.”
          Dude, US and Canada are constantly in such process, because you hid thousands of them.

          At least read something about your country
          https://www.thenation.com/article/world/canada-nazi-monuments-antisemitism/

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            @Slavuto – did you read the article? The “monuments” in question were put up by private citizens. They were missed partially because of antisemitism among some people and in other cases “nazi’s” were kept due to their “cold-war” benefits and “anti-union” i.e. communist inclinations. It was also an abuse of “freedom of speech and association” laws.

            Oh and I’ll repeat the British Colony part again.

            I’m not condoning it in any shape or form. I was aware of some of it. Thanks’ for the link. Oddly enough, it’s from a reputable site. Definitely not your typical MO.

          • 0 avatar
            slavuta

            you at it again – reputable site (in your opinion) or not. If they give you the source of information and not just blatantly say something, what does it matter? The bottom line is the truth.

            Private nazi monument? So, I can light up the cross on my property every night and put a white cone on my head? If I put a confederate flag my development will go crazy.
            In Russia there are some marked graves of German soldiers (most are just dumped somewhere). they have labels but nobody would allow a monument there. And same all over Europe.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            @lavu ta –

            “reputable site (in your opinion) or not. If they give you the source of information and not just blatantly say something, what does it matter? The bottom line is the truth.”

            One’s reputation helps determine the validity of a claim. When you quote InfoWars or Brietbart your credibility drops.

            “The bottom line is the truth”

            That is true but the bulk of your sources are unreliable.

            “I’m not condoning it in any shape or form. I was aware of some of it. Thanks’ for the link. Oddly enough, it’s from a reputable site. Definitely not your typical MO.”

            Wow. You sh.!t yourself even when I sort of agree with you.

        • 0 avatar
          slavuta

          InfoWars or Brietbart – when did I refereed to these?

          And BTW,. Brietbart is Jewish. Are you xenophobic? No wonder Loo-oo

  • avatar
    jkross22

    “What exactly are we shielding people from when new strains continue to manifest, can still be spread amongst the vaccinated, and the shots we currently have are targeting older COVID variants that have lost steam?”

    Stop it with the common sense thinking. You’re going to upset people with facts.

    40,000,000+ people have tested positive for Covid. The real number is likely much higher. These people now have antibodies more effective at preventing them from getting sick from Covid than those who got the jab.

    According to the Israeli data, the level of protection natural immunity has over Covid is dramatically higher than that of the jabs.

    Funny how there is virtually no mention of general health offering up protection against getting sick – physical activity, better/healthier eating, that kind of thing.

    What happened to following the science? I guess it fell out of fashion sometime in the last 10 months.

    • 0 avatar
      slavuta

      I read that tested blood donor samples showed that proportionally 50% more people had covid vs reported by CDC. If this is a correct standing and not a skewed data because all the covid people have tendency to donate their blood; what you have is death rate from covid is even less, like 2x or 1.8x.
      Add to it that covid deaths were over reported and you get a picture where it is clear that vaccination is needed to be targeted one. Not a carpet bombing.

  • avatar
    Lou_BC

    200

  • avatar
    Art Vandelay

    Look at all these $#!+heads

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