By on April 24, 2020

gm

It was a sad day when General Motors all but mothballed its Oshawa, Ontario assembly plant — a manufacturing site that had cranked out cars since 1907 — but new production will soon be underway.

Not of sedans or pickups, the latter of which happened to be the plant’s last vehicular products when it ceased assembly in 2019, but masks. A lot of masks.

Like GM’s sudden switch to personal protective equipment production in Michigan, the automaker’s Canadian arm will likewise dive into the assembly of PPE to feed the Canadian healthcare sector.

There’ll be no ventilators coming out of Oshawa Assembly, which is still idled after performing final assembly on its last previous-gen full-size pickup last year, but there will be masks of the basic, non-N95 variety.

“We plan to manufacture approximately one million masks per month at cost for the Canadian government with an estimate of 50 employees supporting two shifts of production,” GM Canada said in a statement Friday. “The project till requires completion of additional work with our governments and our Unifor partners and we will provide updates as we get ready to begin production.”

More than 2,000 workers lost their jobs when Oshawa Assembly closed its doors in December, the result of a global streamlining effort that saw Lordstown Assembly in Ohio sold off to a fledgling EV maker. Unlike that plant, Oshawa will remain in GM’s hands, converting into a stamping operation and an autonomous vehicle test facility with far fewer workers on site. Once upon a time, Oshawa built Chevrolet Impalas and Camaros.

The masks going into production in Oshawa in the near future will be a direct copy of those made in Warren, Michigan.

[Image: General Motors]

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169 Comments on “Now Devoid of Cars, GM Assembly Plant to Fill With Masks...”


  • avatar
    SCE to AUX

    Soft clap…

    My math says each worker produces about 2 masks a minute. So they’re basically serving as an assembly aid for some semi-automated equipment.

    It’s a job, so that’s a plus. It could be worse – they could be building Camaros.

  • avatar
    redapple

    Shame about Oshawa. Great Plant.
    I ve been in over 100 plants. Canadians are nicer and more dedicated and more knowledgeable than American workers. And I m from Flint.

  • avatar
    Arthur Dailey

    Well at least that is a start. Let’s cut our supply chain with China and start manufacturing ‘vital’ equipment in North America again.

    If they can produce masks, then certainly they can also produce gowns. And the temporary barriers used to separate patients.

    And surely there are enough skilled tool & dye makers, machinists and the like to start eventually produce ventilators and then perhaps other required healthcare equipment such as incubators, etc.

    Based on the quality of the work done at Oshawa, and his ties to Kingston Ontario I wonder why Musk hasn’t investigated some form of manufacturing facility in that area? It seems, given access to government funds to be a perfect fit for his business model.

    And Oshawa produced far more than Impalas and Camaros in its history. Camaros and Firebirds were for a number of years assembled only in St Therese. Oshawa manufactured Buicks, Pontiacs and vehicles during both world wars.

    • 0 avatar
      thelaine

      The financial extent of the calamity was quantified by economist Scott Grannis when he observed that “almost overnight, we have wiped out all the net job gains of the past 14 years.” He made that comment on April 12 and the losses aren’t over yet. Grannis bluntly concluded that, “The shutdown of the U.S. economy will prove to be the most expensive self-inflicted injury in the history of mankind.”

      The loss of liberty incurred as a result of shutdown is not as easily quantifiable, but is no less significant.

      Epidemiological “models” have provided the scientific basis for this large-scale abrogation of personal and economic liberty. Now that the models have been shown to be grossly inaccurate, some are demanding accountability.

    • 0 avatar
      randyinrocklin

      @Art, you’re quite knowledgeable yourself. I love to hear about the manufacturing processes of the various manufacturers.

    • 0 avatar
      SCE to AUX

      “It seems, given access to government funds to be a perfect fit for his business model.”

      Two corrections:
      1. When you say “government funds”, there are no checks flowing to Tesla from the governments of CA, NV, NY, DC, or Germany. What the company receives is tax abatement as an incentive to set up shop there.
      2. That’s a perfect fit for every mfr’s business model, not just Tesla.

  • avatar
    EBFlex

    Boy imagine if instead of making silly masks they were making cars! What a crazy thought huh?

    This whole mask thing will turn out to be as foolish as the ventilator nonsense. Everyone scrambled to make ventilators and now we are shipping them all over the world because we didn’t need them.

    Yet another example of hysteria due to what “models” showed. I swear these “modelers” are worse than meteorologists.

    • 0 avatar
      Arthur Dailey

      @EBFlex: This week 2 planes chartered by Canadian governments had to return to Canada from China empty because they could not load the medical equipment and supplies that they had purchased.

      And we still have governments and healthcare workers around the globe publicly stating that they need more equipment and supplies.

      So do you know more than they do?

      Yes it would be nice if Oshawa would return to making cars. But who would buy them right now?

      • 0 avatar
        JimZ

        in three months, this virus has killed nearly as many Americans as the Vietnam War did. If that stupid …. is still calling this a “cold,” write him off.

        this site desperately, desperately needs a block/ignore function.

        • 0 avatar
          EBFlex

          Man you just love running around hysterical all the time don’t you Jimbo?

          I love you you conveniently leave out that we are not anywhere near how many people die every year from the flu.

          Hell we are at the same number of yearly deaths from nephritis as we are the corona cold.

          Use your brain and stop allowing yourself to be spoon fed misinformation from your fake news media. It’s ok to think for yourself once and a while.

          • 0 avatar
            JimZ

            being a knee-jerk contrarian is not “thinking for yourself.” it’s just being a contrarian.

            and no wonder you don’t see the irony in telling me that in order to “think for myself” I have to think what you think.

          • 0 avatar
            Arthur Dailey

            @EBFlex: Critical thought involves checking the credentials of the people who you are listening to and/or reading.

            It also involves checking their track record.

            And then confirming that what they are saying and/or writing is backed up by a majority of those with the relevant credentials and/or training.

            In other words, disregarding what you read on the ‘black net’, from conspiracy theorists who consistently change their stories, from nearly every commentator on Fox News, and unfortunately from the president who has during his tenure made over 17,000 false claims or statements.

            But then, that would also mean having to accept as truth statements that you disagree with.

            And a great many people (not pointing fingers at you), are not willing to believe a fact that contradicts their personal opinion.

            Hence the continual reference to ‘the flu’ (more properly influenza). Generally someone with influenza can infect one other person ( 1 to 1), whereas COVID-19 is so transmittable that one infected person can infect up to 10 others (1 to 10). And we do not have herd immunity to COVID-19. Hence the need to isolate. Otherwise the infection rates would be so high as to render society inoperable for an extended period, and swamp the healthcare facilities, leading to a greater fatality rate.

            Self-isolation is a means to buy time, to develop the require infrastructure and to spread out the hospitalization rates over a more extended period.

          • 0 avatar
            EBFlex

            “and no wonder you don’t see the irony in telling me that in order to “think for myself” I have to think what you think.”

            Show me where I said you need to “think what I think”.

            —————————————–

            ” Critical thought involves checking the credentials of the people who you are listening to and/or reading.

            It also involves checking their track record.”

            Ok so I have to thoroughly investigate the CDC? Because that’s where the flu numbers came from.

            Infection rates being 50-85 TIMES higher than originally thought came from a University of Southern California study and Stanford. Do I really need to check their track record?

            https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/stephaniemlee/coronavirus-antibody-test-santa-clara-los-angeles-stanford

            And the latest study has come out of New York and the results are exactly the same as in Californai:

            https://www.cbsnews.com/news/new-york-coronavirus-13-9-percent-coronavirus-antibodies-covid-19/

            For the record I don’t watch Fox News. I don’t have cable/satellite.

            Again, my position is that this virus is not NEARLY as bad as it’s being framed and we have THREE studies and death numbers that have been revised downward to back that up. Where am I wrong? Unlike Jimbo who will believe anything he’s told to believe, I look at what we are being told and what is actually panning out. And there is a vast difference.

          • 0 avatar
            thelaine

            EB,

            Here’s some “critical thought” from another expert they blow off/ignore.

            In a fascinating open letter to German Prime Minister Angela Merkel, epidemiologist Mihai Grigoriu concludes that with the French study, corroborated by findings from a Stanford antibody seroprevalence study in Santa Clara county, “the case for extreme measures collapses like a house of cards.” Grigoriu says that since the virus has already spread widely in the general population, efforts to stop further spread are both futile and destructive.

          • 0 avatar
            thelaine

            Here is a conspiracy theory from the Stanford epidemiologist, found on the “black web” site known as the Wall Street Journal:

            The news is filled with stories of healthy young people who die of
            coronavirus. But Dr. Ioannidis recently published a paper with his
            wife, Despina Contopoulos-Ioannidis, an infectious-disease specialist
            at Stanford, that showed this to be a classic man-bites-dog story. The
            couple found that people under 65 without underlying conditions
            accounted for only 0.7% of coronavirus deaths in Italy and 1.8% in New
            York City.
            “Compared to almost any other cause of disease that I can think of, it’s

            really sparing young people. I’m not saying that the lives of 80-year-
            olds do not have value—they do,” he says. “But there’s far, far, far

            more . . . young people who commit suicide.” If the panic and
            attendant disruption continue, he says, “we will see many young
            people committing suicide . . . just because we are spreading horror
            stories with Covid-19. There’s far, far more young people who get
            cancer and will not be treated, because again, they will not go to the
            hospital to get treated because of Covid-19. There’s far, far more
            people whose mental health will collapse.”

          • 0 avatar
            FreedMike

            @EBFlex

            Of course this isn’t nearly as bad as they predicted – steps were taken to make it that way.

            Don’t let that stand in the way of you being contrarian for the sake of being contrarian, though.

        • 0 avatar
          randyinrocklin

          @Jimz NO sh*T Sherlock.

        • 0 avatar
          randyinrocklin

          And a thumbs up or thumbs down function.

      • 0 avatar
        thelaine

        More “black net” conspiracy theories:

        Sweden’s chief epidemiologist has doubled down on his optimism regarding the coronavirus in his country, asserting that in a matter of weeks herd immunity could be reached in Sweden’s capital, Stockholm.

        Dr. Anders Tegnell, chief epidemiologist at Sweden’s Public Health Agency, told CNBC, “In major parts of Sweden, around Stockholm, we have reached a plateau (in new cases) and we’re already seeing the effect of herd immunity and in a few weeks’ time we’ll see even more of the effects of that. And in the rest of the country, the situation is stable.” He added that sampling and modeling data showed 20% of Stockholm’s population is already immune to the coronavirus, and that “in a few weeks’ time we might reach herd immunity and we believe that is why we’re seeing a slow decline in cases, in spite of sampling (testing for the coronavirus) more and more.”

        Acknowledging the roughly 1,500 people who have died in his country as well as the 14,385 people in Sweden who have tested positive for coronavirus, Tegnell said the situation “is not a failure for the overall strategy. It is a failure to protect our elderly who live in care homes,” as the New York Daily News reported.

  • avatar
    -Nate

    America needs to get back to teaching critical thinking along with the three R’s .

    -Nate

    • 0 avatar
      EBFlex

      No, no…we must believe anything and everything the media says and not allow ourselves any for of critical thought. Doing so offends the snowflakes.

      • 0 avatar
        JimZ

        in your world, if there was a flood and the water was up to everyone’s chin, your “critical thought” would be trying to convince everyone the water didn’t exist all the while people were starting to drown.

      • 0 avatar
        thelaine

        Agreed EB. This is a media-created mass hysteria, and anyone who disagrees that this is the Black Death is attacked.

        Funny, we have never shut down our economy before, for any reason, in response to any challenge we have ever face, but somehow the proponents of this policy are not the ones who are viewed as the “black net” radicals.

      • 0 avatar
        thelaine

        John Ioannidis, the Stanford professor of medicine and epidemiology, has a great series on youtube entitled “Perspectives on the Pandemic.” Highly recommended. (You can find it on the “black web.”)

        • 0 avatar
          Lou_BC

          If all of this is mass hysteria and as King COVID-45 himself has said, “Just like the flu”, then why does King COVID-45 get himself tested for COVID-19 once per week?

          He needs to take his own suggestions and start injecting disinfectants.

  • avatar
    ect

    As I understand it, Oshawa will be producing cloth masks, as is GM in Michigan. Cloth masks help protect others from the wearer, but don’t protect the wearer from others.

    I have purchased 2 sets of cloth masks from small companies – they’re easy to make. If everyone wears them, there’s a benefit. But if many people don’t…

    The health care community needs N95 masks, which I understand GM is not producing. I’d be thrilled to be wrong.

    • 0 avatar
      Scott

      I believe theses masks might be used to supply to companies and the public so people can go out and get the economy opened in Canada in a controlled and safe manner ( along with hopefully more testing etc).

    • 0 avatar
      Lou_BC

      Even medical grade standard surgical face masks are designed to primarily stop the wearer from spreading their germs. That is why Operating room staff wear them and not N95’s. Standard surgical masks provide protection from large droplets and splashes/sprays.
      N95’s provide protection from small particle aerosols and large droplets. Staff treating COVID-19 patients would be more likely to need N95’s because they would be routinely administering treatments and performing care/procedures that would cause small particle aerosols and large droplets.

    • 0 avatar
      ToolGuy

      ect,

      Here is GM’s production process at Warren, Michigan (complete with video):
      https://tinyurl.com/yavlwgpm

      [Note the ozone sterilization step.]

      As I understand it, these are three-layer “Level 1 surgical masks”. Some additional information on mask classifications:
      https://tinyurl.com/ybgp8cxl

      One of my nieces is a newly-minted nurse working with COVID patients in ICU – they do not currently have the personal protective equipment they would like to have.

  • avatar
    Jeff S

    I hope that the threat of COVID-19 is overstated but I fear that it is not. I am concerned about a second much worse wave since there are those who want to resume business as normal much too soon. I do understand the hardship especially the loss of jobs. As for bringing back more jobs to the US and Canada I am all for that especially now since we have become more dependent on outsourcing. I had ordered an iron skillet on Amazon and when it came it said “Made in the USA”. It is very heavy and well made and the price was very reasonable.

    • 0 avatar
      golden2husky

      One thing this pandemic has laid bare is our country’s vulnerability when it comes to manufacturing. If there are only a few changes made because of the virus, I’d hope a closer look at where we are “held hostage” to other countries is addressed.

  • avatar
    NeilM

    Yes, 50,000 COVID-19 deaths and still counting. And that’s in the US alone.

    EBFlex is either spectacularly ill informed, or intellectually unequipped to understand what going on.

    • 0 avatar
      Scoutdude

      12 year olds usually aren’t intellectually developed enough to understand such things.

    • 0 avatar
      EBFlex

      I understand that the flu kills ~300,000-~600,000 per year globally. As of this writing we are below 200K deaths globally.

      I understand that there have been three independent studies (two in California and one in New York) that show the infection rate to be VASTLY higher than what is confirmed (meaning that your death rate plummets).

      I understand that the modeling used to shut the entire country down was completely wrong and has since been revised way down.

      I understand that we overproduced ventilators based on flawed modeling.

      I understand through direct observation that hospital volumes are significantly lower and, as a result, all major healthcare facilities where I live are furloughing healthcare workers or asking them to stay home as they don’t have near the patients that were predicted based on flawed models.

      But go off Neil.

      • 0 avatar
        JimZ

        so you understand all of this, you have the absolute best grasp of the situation compared to anyone else in the world, and all you have to do with your time is sit on your chair moistener commenting on car blogs?

        • 0 avatar
          EBFlex

          Question is Jimbo….why are you so angry? Why does it bother you so much that someone would have questions when what they’re being told is so different from reality? Or are you just against simple mathematical concepts (higher infection rate yet a steady mortality rate means it’s not as deadly)? It’s almost as if you want the virus to be as bad as you’re being told to believe.

          https://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/early-antibody-testing-indicates-far-more-covid-19-cases-lower-mortality-rate/2349275/

          “The good news from the antibody study, researchers said, is that the mortality rate from the illness is much lower than currently estimated.”

          • 0 avatar
            thelaine

            John Ioannidis, a Stanford professor of medicine and epidemiology, just published his finding that the death rate of this virus was the equivalent of the flu.

            “Locking down the world with potentially tremendous social and financial consequences MAY BE TOTALLY IRRATIONAL. It’s like an elephant being attacked by a house cat. Frustrated and trying to avoid the cat, the elephant accidentally jumps off a cliff and dies.”

            You want to check this guy’s credentials? Is he Fox News? Is he “black net,” whatever that is?

          • 0 avatar
            thelaine

            You can give them endless citations to contrary evidence EB, and they just blow them off or rationalize them away.

            How about this guy? I guess they are more knowledgeable than him, because the watch the CBC.

            Professor Johan Giesecke, one of the world’s most senior epidemiologists, advisor to the Swedish Government (he hired Anders Tegnell who is currently directing Swedish strategy), the first Chief Scientist of the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control, and an advisor to the director general of the WHO, lays out with typically Swedish bluntness why he thinks:

            UK policy on lockdown and other European countries are not evidence-based.

            The correct policy is to protect the old and the frail only.

            This will eventually lead to herd immunity as a “by-product.”

            The initial UK response, before the “180 degree U-turn”, was better.

            The Imperial College paper was “not very good” and he has never seen an unpublished paper have so much policy impact.

            The paper was very much too pessimistic.

            Any such models are a dubious basis for public policy anyway.

            The flattening of the curve is due to the most vulnerable dying first as much as the lockdown.

            The results will eventually be similar for all countries.

            Covid-19 is a “mild disease” and similar to the flu, and it was the novelty of the disease that scared people.

            The actual fatality rate of Covid-19 is the region of 0.1%.

            At least 50% of the population of both the UK and Sweden will be shown to have already had the disease when mass antibody testing becomes available.

          • 0 avatar
            mcs

            “John Ioannidis, You want to check this guy’s credentials?”

            https://undark.org/2020/04/24/john-ioannidis-covid-19-death-rate-critics/

            Yeah, he’s a moron like the other losers you cite. Let’s get back to car stuff.

            https://undark.org/2020/04/24/john-ioannidis-covid-19-death-rate-critics/

      • 0 avatar
        Lie2me

        EB, go to work, go to church, go to your Trump rally and go liberate your state. Who cares? Just leave the rest of us alone

        • 0 avatar
          EBFlex

          Yet you took the time to comment.

          Hilarious

          • 0 avatar
            Lie2me

            That doesn’t even make sense

            Tell us, EB, what does the world have to do for you to make your life better, because that’s all that really matters, isn’t it?

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            @EBFlex is living proof that ingesting disinfectants is perfectly fine and UV light in large doses to living tissue has no effect on cognitive ability.

          • 0 avatar
            EBFlex

            I love it. Can’t contradict what I say (because facts are facts) so you have to resort to personal attacks.

            What’s next in your playbook, calling me a racist? You people are so predictable

          • 0 avatar
            -Nate

            The inability to face facts or have logical thing is why the U.S.A, is now the world leader in coniv-19 deaths .

            mike pence says “pray it away” .

            The president says it’s a hoax, then it’s only the flu , then ‘take chloriquine and shove a U.V. light up your butt and you’ll be fine .

            No one cars that they’re killing Veterans at 2 X the normal death rate with the chloroquine….

            Go dhead, be ignorant .

            Don’t forget to oil the guns before you bury them .

            -Nate

          • 0 avatar
            JimZ


            I love it. Can’t contradict what I say (because facts are facts) so you have to resort to personal attacks.

            What’s next in your playbook, calling me a racist? You people are so predictable”

            may I ask if you’re on the spectrum?

          • 0 avatar
            thelaine

            No amount of facts, logic or evidence will sway them. Their brains are paralyzed with fear. All they can do is attack the messenger.

          • 0 avatar
            thelaine

            When the lockdowns began last month, we were told that if we didn’t stay home our hospitals would be overwhelmed with coronavirus patients, intensive care wards would be overrun, there wouldn’t be enough ventilators, and some people would probably die in their homes for lack of care. To maintain capacity in the health-care system, we all had to go on lockdown—not just the big cities, but everywhere.

            So we stayed home, businesses closed, and tens of millions of Americans lost their jobs. But with the exception of New York City, the overwhelming surge of coronavirus patients never really appeared—at least not in the predicted numbers, which have been off by hundreds of thousands.

            During a press conference Wednesday, Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis noted that health experts initially projected 465,000 Floridians would be hospitalized because of coronavirus by April 24. But as of April 22, the number is slightly more than 2,000.

            Even in New York, where Gov. Andrew Cuomo said last month he would need 30,000 ventilators, hospitals never came close to needing that many. The projected peak need was about 5,000, and actual usage may have been even lower.

          • 0 avatar
            FreedMike

            @thelaine:

            “Attack the messenger”…you mean, like calling anyone who disagrees with you “hysterical”?

            JimZ is right…we need an ignore button so folks who are clearly just on here to get their daily dose of negative attention just go somewhere else.

        • 0 avatar
          randyinrocklin

          @Lie, Right on brother!

      • 0 avatar
        Lou_BC

        “As of this writing we are below 200K deaths globally.”

        This outbreak was recognized in December of 2019. 4 months=200k deaths. SARS-CoV-2 hasn’t taken off in Africa or other poor nations.

        WHO statistics as of March 24 show that world wide known cases of COVID-19 double every 24 days.

        “independent studies”
        https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/04/experts-demolish-studies-suggesting-covid-19-is-no-worse-than-flu/
        These studies were not officially peer reviewed before they were posted. They have been panned for being seriously flawed.

        “I understand”

        No. Not really.

        You are searching for validity of your beliefs.

        “I understand through *direct observation* that hospital volumes”

        You work in healthcare?

        Direct Observation?

    • 0 avatar
      Lorenzo

      New York City just added 3,800 deaths as covid-19 deaths, even though none of them were tested for the virus. They were just listed as “probable” covid deaths. Federal aid is predicated on the scale of the infection, and when you subsidize something you get more of it. BTW, another 3500 deaths in New York state were in nursing homes, and they still haven’t sealed them off.

      • 0 avatar
        jetcal

        Hello Lorenzo,
        Nursing homes in NY have been locked down since mid-March.

      • 0 avatar
        thelaine

        At 18 percent of the U.S. economy, health care is a $3.6 trillion industry annually. By barring all elective surgeries, which covers a huge array of operations, like knee reconstructions or even cancer biopsies, hospitals have been denied billions in revenue in just the last month alone.

        Outpatient services account for half of all hospital revenue, which means hospitals are now making, and spending, half what they were this time last year.

        It’s not surprising, then, that the industry shed a record 43,000 health care workers in the first month of this crisis. Experts expect equal or greater layoffs this month, when the sustained forbearance has made revenue even more urgent.

        Even before this crisis, one in four rural hospitals were vulnerable to closure. Now, many of these rural systems have more empty beds than ever before.

  • avatar
    thelaine

    Am I saying the virus isn’t bad? No, it is. Some people get very sick; some will die. But it’s not the bubonic plague.

    Most corona virus patients (80%) have mild symptoms.
    A new study shows that the mortality rate for this virus is not ten times as lethal as the flu, but very close to flu’s 0.1%.
    “98% to 99% of people infected with the virus will recover.”

    • 0 avatar
      JimZ

      it’s causing strokes in young, otherwise healthy people with mild symptoms.

      https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/04/24/strokes-coronavirus-young-patients/

      So what will you go cherry pick now to try to explain that away? or will you and EBFlex be too busy telling each other how smart you think you are?

      • 0 avatar
        Lorenzo

        The Washington Post has been wrong before. If you wish to believe everything they print, that’s your personal folly. Don’t expect anyone else to buy it.

        The study they cite isn’t even a study – it’s a collection of statements by “doctors sounding the alarm”. Wait a day and you’ll find it debunked, just like the study-that-wasn’t-a-study warning about hydroxychloroquine.

        The Post printed that too – but not the debunking. They won’t print a correction for this sensationalist article either.

        • 0 avatar
          JimZ

          “The study they cite isn’t even a study – it’s a collection of statements by “doctors sounding the alarm”.”

          Which is about as authoritative as what thelaine and EBFlex have been referring to, but I guess in your view it’s OK if they do it.

          Besides, if “has been wrong before” was an automatic perpetual disqualifier then every single person and entity in the entire world would have to be silent forever.

          Including you, BTW.

        • 0 avatar
          Lou_BC

          “it’s causing strokes in young”

          It isn’t surprising.

          COVID-19 Coagulopathy is indeed a legitimate problem occurring in patients. It appears to follow a rise in inflammatory markers. If it leads to DIC (Disseminated Intravascular Coagulation), it can become deadly rather quickly. It isn’t unusual for Acute Respiratory Distress patients to also develop DIC.

      • 0 avatar
        EBFlex

        Lol the Washington Post.

        What’s amazing is you can’t answer any of the questions I asked you. You don’t address any of the evidence that’s challenges what you are being told to believe.

        Instead you take a fringe case that is not representative of anything and hold it up as some sort of undeniable proof that somehow we are wrong.

        Oh and you resort to name calling and personal attacks.

        You’re so predictable.

  • avatar
    thelaine

    It is now evident that this virus, though nastier than most, never was and is never going to be the Andromeda Strain Black Death. The original predictions and models were about as close to reality as past predictions of global cooling, or “peak oil.”

    The other myth that the lockdown mitigated the spread of the disease has also been exploded since evidence from Stanford and NYC that millions might have been infected weeks or months before the lockdowns and travel bans, and the resultant herd immunity mitigated mass death, just like with every other flu season or severe viral outbreak in the past. Doubt me? See Sweden.

    As for “bending the curve,” that never meant preventing infection and death; it meant slowing the rate of those things to keep hospitals from being overrun. And that never happened since hospitals and medical professionals are facing closure and mass layoffs as much as anyone else. Huge numbers were infected, many got sick, sadly some died and will continue to die… and at least 98% of them recovered completely.

  • avatar
    thelaine

    Regardless of the arguments, it never made any sense at all to keep healthy young people from going to work. That was economic suicide and is going to result in a disaster for millions and millions of Americans.

    Poverty causes misery and death. Suicide, early death from all causes, welfare dependence, broken homes, destroyed communities, crime, violence, drug addiction, alcoholism and on and on.

    The internet epidemiologists ignore this, blow it off, or suggest welfare, but it is a consequence of policy choices, not a consequence of this virus. We chose it, and the reason we did was because we panicked and were blinded by mass hysteria. Some people, including Canadians, are still under the influence of their fears. They cannot accept contrary evidence. They want the economic lockdowns to continue indefinitely. They are stone cold to the pain and suffering the lockdowns are causing. They just stare at the wuhandeathwatch number and listen to the TV.

    • 0 avatar
      Arthur Dailey

      @TheLaine: you keep spewing opinions, but have no facts on your side.

      It seems that the people who believe like you do, are also believers in conspiracy theories. And supporters of the current POTUS.

      Like other cult followers, ignoring facts, or the findings of experts and instead believing the falsehoods spouted by their cult leader.

      The fact is that COVID=19 is highly contagious. That those nations that have not taken isolation steps are suffering from far higher fatalities.

      That even American warships are being put out of commission by this virus.

      And something you keep ignoring, economies recover. Dead people don’t.

      • 0 avatar
        thelaine

        People who die prematurely because of poverty-related effects do not recover. They die. I cited a UN study showing that hundreds of thousands of children will die around the world because of the economic lockdown. Hysterics completely ignored it.

        For a leftist, it all comes down to politics. POTUS this and POTUS that. It is an obsession. They are are truly infected with a disease, which, tragically, makes them obsessed and hysterical.

      • 0 avatar
        thelaine

        The fact that something is highly contagious does not demonstrate that it is highly deadly, but you are literally unequipped to comprehend that simple fact.

      • 0 avatar
        thelaine

        I have cited expert after expert and have never cited your personal demon. Every expert cites the facts. All of them disagree with the economic lockdown as a strategy…the lockdown strategy, btw, which has been pursued by the US president. Conspiracies? What the hell are you talking about? You are wrong, you are flailing, and a tiny spark in your TDS brain knows it. The world is waking up to the economic catastrophe we have chosen to create. It was completely avoidable and is going to ruin millions of lives and cause widespread misery and death. But you are not poor, so who cares, right?

        • 0 avatar
          ajla

          “All of them disagree with the economic lockdown as a strategy…”

          The strict lockdown strategy is lifting in many states and nations by May 15. So we’ll get to see how correct the ideas behind your citations are.

          twitter.com/MailOnline/status/1254149068563111936

          twitter.com/Reuters/status/1253360511326003200

          If nothing spikes or get overwhelmed through the summer and fall then *all* the restrictions will go away, the recovery will be comparatively strong, and you can brag until your fingers are sore.

          • 0 avatar
            thelaine

            It is Sweden and several other countries which never strangled their economies that have bragging rights. We already cut off our nuts. The damage is done. The only possible hope is that we learn from this and never repeat our insane response. We lost our nerve and became completely irrational. We should try not to do that next time.

        • 0 avatar
          Lou_BC

          @thelaine –

          “I have cited expert after expert”

          Just the few that match what you believe.

          If you had cancer, would you listen to the 99% of doctors who’d prescribe the same treatment or go with the 1% that would sell you cannabis, and chaga mushrooms?

    • 0 avatar
      thelaine

      It doesn’t matter how many experts you cite, they are deaf and dumb.

      • 0 avatar
        EBFlex

        Yep. Even when you cite your information like we did (because obviously using a search engine is too hard for these drones that believe whatever they are told) they still call you names and throw a tantrum. People like Jimbo is the reason the media has so much power. They thrive on those incapable of critical thought.

      • 0 avatar
        Lou_BC

        “It doesn’t matter how many experts you cite”

        You haven’t cited that many.

        You cherry picked just the ones that match your point of view.

        You both obviously have zero idea how meta-analysis works!

        Where are you searching? The Cochrane Library? CINAHL Plus?

        Nope… More like….FAUXED News. Dr. Oz and Dr. Phil, oh and King COVID #45.

        Google doesn’t count as a legitimate medical data base.

        Here is a tip…….. If you want to post evidence, that evidence has to be supported by at least two other trials.

  • avatar
    thelaine

    Scott W. Atlas, MD, is the David and Joan Traitel Senior Fellow at Stanford University’s Hoover Institution and the former chief of neuroradiology at Stanford University Medical Center. Not an “expert” though….

    This guy agrees with the dissidents. He has a great article in the Hill.

    https://thehill.com/opinion/healthcare/494034-the-data-are-in-stop-the-panic-and-end-the-total-isolation

    We paranoid black web dissident cultists have been saying this for five weeks. Wake up, hysteric community.

    “The appropriate policy, based on fundamental biology and the evidence already in hand, is to institute a more focused strategy like some outlined in the first place: Strictly protect the known vulnerable, self-isolate the mildly sick and open most workplaces and small businesses with some prudent large-group precautions. This would allow the essential socializing to generate immunity among those with minimal risk of serious consequence, while saving lives, preventing overcrowding of hospitals and limiting the enormous harms compounded by continued total isolation. Let’s stop underemphasizing empirical evidence while instead doubling down on hypothetical models. Facts matter.”

  • avatar
    DenverMike

    GM finally found their niche.

  • avatar
    Arthur Dailey

    To the Laine, my final response.

    You obviously now nothing of epidemiological processes, or risk management.

    You make projections based on the information that you have.
    These include best case and worse case scenarios.

    Based on these, you make recommendations.

    Fatality rates demonstrate that social isolation and shutdowns have had a positive impact on fatality rates and intensive care cases.

    In jurisdictions that did not implement these or where due to housing conditions they could not adequately socially isolate, fatality rates are higher.

    This is evidence that social distancing and closures have worked.

    So has the ‘flattening of the curve’ where social distancing and closures were enacted. Flattening the curve allows for the acquisition of equipment, prevented hospitals from being flooded, and gave time to learn more about this virus. The closures ‘bought time’.

    The incompetence of the POTUS has been demonstrated by his rantings during press conferences, the number of times that he has changed his story, and the fatality rates in the USA.
    ———— 30 —————

    • 0 avatar
      thelaine

      Art,

      Every point you make (except the cookoo TDS insanity) is refuted by expert after expert after expert I have cited just in this thread alone. You simply ignore it because your religion is politics and cult members are unpersuadable.

    • 0 avatar
      thelaine

      The appropriate policy, based on fundamental biology and the evidence already in hand, is to institute a more focused strategy like some outlined in the first place: Strictly protect the known vulnerable, self-isolate the mildly sick and open most workplaces and small businesses with some prudent large-group precautions. This would allow the essential socializing to generate immunity among those with minimal risk of serious consequence, while saving lives, preventing overcrowding of hospitals and limiting the enormous harms compounded by continued total isolation. Let’s stop underemphasizing empirical evidence while instead doubling down on hypothetical models. Facts matter.”

  • avatar
    Lie2me

    Wow, this really went deep into the weeds of the lunatic fringe, it’s a good thing that the head nutjob is now the world’s laughing stock with near zero credibility with people who matter

    Now it’s just a matter of keeping him contained until sanity and responsible leadership are restored and a plan developed to fight the virus and return the world to some kind of normalcy. This is a WORLD problem and not just an American problem and must be dealt with globally

    Either that or we’re doomed

    • 0 avatar
      EBFlex

      “ Wow, this really went deep into the weeds of the lunatic fringe”

      It did when people like you and Jimbo refuse to acknowledge the growing mountain of evidence that refutes your hysterical, doom and gloom ideology.

      You dismiss studies by Stanford. You dismiss studies by USC. You dismiss studies in New York that mirror the studies done by USC and Stanford. You dismiss the fact that the death rate has been significantly lowered. You dismiss all of those indisputable facts and substitute the misinformation you’re being told to believe. It’s truly pathetic but then not surprising. The media thrives on the ignorant.

      • 0 avatar
        Lie2me

        EB, what are you so upset about? Like I said, do what you want, mix it up with other people who think like you, fine the rest of us are going to take the slow and cautious way back

        Perhaps history will prove you right, perhaps not, but I’ll be damn if I’m going to be your or any politician’s guinea pig

        • 0 avatar
          EBFlex

          Pointing out how you dismiss facts and reality does not equate to me being upset.

          I don’t have a choice but to interact with people due to my job. But I’m not a blind puppet of the media that will repeat the false narrative in the face of actual facts. I’m not one of those people that want this thing to hang around just so the economy gets damaged beyond repair

          Frankly history has already proven me right. Infection rates FAR greater than reported and mortality numbers revised significantly downward. For those of us who value a strong economy and a healthy workforce that is music to our ears.

          • 0 avatar
            Lie2me

            Gather all your facts that you’ve presented here and send them to your governor and congressman, that’s what they’re there for

            The people in charge are using a different set of facts then you are. There is nothing you or anyone here can do about it. There are a lot of laws I don’t like that I obey, because that’s what people do. I would rather error on the side of caution then to get sick and die for the sake of the economy

            Businesses are not going to open and run the risk of health related lawsuits, their insurance carriers won’t let them

      • 0 avatar
        thelaine

        That is it, exactly EB. These are TV zombies. Completely incapable of independent thought.

        • 0 avatar
          Lou_BC

          “refuse to acknowledge the growing mountain of evidence”

          Where is that mountain?

          “Completely incapable of independent thought.”

          @EBFlex and @thelaine…..

          Ha ha ha.

          I’m curious as to what level of education both of you have reached?
          Do either of you have any health care education of any kind?

          Your posts and the interpretation of data presented by them and the lack of any corroborating evidence would indicate that the answer to those two questions would be no.

  • avatar
    randyinrocklin

    This a car blog and not a political blog. If you want to talk politics go to Gateway Pundit (they will censor you), Conservative Treehouse (Us Treepers),or Ace of Spades (ace.mu.nu), I love their pictures. And come back to talk about cars.

    • 0 avatar
      Featherston

      @ randyinrocklin – Actually, in glancing at that masthead, I see at least five contributors who at times have injected politics into their work, either because it’s their natural predilection or because it’s good for the bottom line.

      My advice: Stick to Sajeev’s or Corey’s work if you want to stay sane. (And yeah, I’m violating my own advice.)

  • avatar
    Old_WRX

    And, to add to the fun with this pan(dem)ic: A tremendous amount of toxic stuff is being sprayed seemingly everywhere by untrained personnel. Does anybody have the slightest idea about the long term health consequences if this? Somehow I doubt it.

    The tabloids (CNN, et al) are working the masses into quite a feeding frenzy over something that, even by the numbers they (those same tabloids) state, is no worse than the flu in terms of death rates.

    The alleged facts presented by the main stream news contradict that this is some dire emergency. Don’t believe it? Check for yourself the number of flu deaths per annum on the CDC’s website and compare it to the stats on the news for the number of deaths from CV.

  • avatar
    Jeff S

    Agree this is a car blog and should remain a car blog.

  • avatar
    mikey

    @ Jeff S …. Agreed ..I just read the whole thread..Some good points made from both sides . However such weighty matters are beyond my pay grade.

    My adult daughters have me on a pretty short leash.. As an older than 65, non smoker with a history of pneumonia, I’m not willing to risk my health..I do however see both sides of the argument

    I spent 36 years of my life in the Oshawa plant ..Every so often take a little cruise and drive by the place. From locked gates, to the overgrown parking lot ..I just breaks my heart. We were once 22000 hourly !

    I’m pleased to see any activity at all happening there..

    • 0 avatar
      Lie2me

      That’s kind of sad, mikey, aren’t you lucky that you were able to work there during it’s glory days

      • 0 avatar
        mikey

        Yes …Myself, and many of my friends worked through the glory years. Frozen pension, reduced benefits and all, I’m in year 12 of retirement, and loving it!

        My lack of education is my only life regret …I was just a dumb kid. Cars, girls, and weed seemed like a better choice at the time. I was 18 when GM changed my life.

        My GM pay cheque propelled me into a middle class life . Something a high school drop out can’t dream of today.

    • 0 avatar
      el scotto

      @ Mikey, always good to hear from you. You were there in the plant, cranking out vehicles, putting in your hours, and paying union dues. Your evidence is breath of fresh air compared to the “experts” on here who have never entered a manufacturing plant or been in a union. Former Ironworker btw. If you still have the Mustang, wait for sunny days and top down weather.

      • 0 avatar
        mikey

        Thanks el scotto ….The 08 is gone ..the 15 got traded …The O5 GT.. Top down ….still waiting for a sunny day !!

        • 0 avatar
          -Nate

          Mikey ~

          Not everyone gets to go to college and get rich .

          No shame at all in being Blue Collar, it’s what made me what I am too and I’m content in my dotage .

          Shame about the pneumonia thing, it’s easy to catch and will KILL YOU if it possibly can, one of my old mates from the 1960’s just got over double pneumonia and he never smoked…

          Lucky to be alive .

          THANK YOU for being a good working Union member for all those decades .

          -Nate

  • avatar
    Art Vandelay

    Serious question here…have JimZ or Theelaine ever actually made an automotive related comment on this site?

    • 0 avatar
      thelaine

      Cars are great.

      • 0 avatar
        thelaine

        There you go, Arthur.

        • 0 avatar
          Art Vandelay

          So no then. Just pointing out that the 2 of you typically manage to hijack every freaking discussion on here, turn it into the worst sort of discourse, and all the while never contribute anything meaningful.

          This site used to have solid discussion and input from industry insiders. Now it is reviews that you are lucky if they mention the car and comments that are akin to a couple of chumps flinging crap at each other.

          • 0 avatar
            el scotto

            @ Art. in the 60s when I was a kid, people would get a monkey and put him in a cage in their back yard. Well after 3 or 4 weeks the monkey would start flinging his feces at people. When I got older I figured out why. He didn’t have any monkey buddies to hang out with, didn’t have any little monkey beers to drink, and certainly didn’t have a hot monkey girlfriend. I’d be throwing my turds as people too. Now think of a a certain subset of the B&B. Some can type and come here to fling their turds.

          • 0 avatar
            thelaine

            Art V,

            I think we just disagree, and you don’t like it. This site has always had a car side and a politics side, from Day One.

            This thread was about the virus. Look at the topic. Was it about cars? No, it was about the effects of the virus on the economy, specifically, GM.

            I have been arguing with people about this issue for some time, but I am responding and defending my position against people who are completely disparaging of alternate opinions. That tends to bring out the fight in people. I have brought a different perspective, which is not based upon fear and hysteria, but is based on science, common sense, and a desire to avoid an economic catastrophe. I guess that makes some people uncomfortable.

            It sickens me that we have destroyed our economy in an attempt to fight a virus that is not the Black Plague. I have argued that it was unnecessary, and there are a lot of people, from ordinary workers to brilliant scientists, who agree with this position.

            I did not think it was “political” until I began to get attacked by the exact same people who are obsessed with Trump. I have no idea why. I am arguing against economic suicide. Is that a political position?

          • 0 avatar
            Art Vandelay

            Yeah @Thelaine, you are probably right. Or maybe I used to really enjoy this site and don’t like scrolling through 100 posts of supposed adults behaving like 2 year olds trying to outyell each other. It is everything wrong with discourse in this country right now and you are part of the problem.

            It’s the internet…Why do people feel the need to “defend themselves” to strangers at the cost of ruining it for the rest of us.

            Yes, this site always had a political side and a car side. First, I miss the car side. I miss when the political side was limited to the topic of the article as well for the most part and “politics” was typically industry politics.

            I would have banned the all of you long ago. Yeah, insert your free speech whatever argument (even though this site is in no way affiliated with the Government and I am sure Vertical Scope owns some political forum you would be free to rant away on). You are ruining this place for everyone but hey, you all won the internet I guess. Good Job.

            And I don’t absolve the people running this site…they love the clicks. But there was a time when this site broke stories because insiders posted here and worked on the staff. I would ask them, why do you suppose they all left? I think the crap flinging has something to do with it.

            But again, you won the internet…Good Job.

    • 0 avatar
      JimZ

      “Serious question here…have JimZ or Theelaine ever actually made an automotive related comment on this site?”

      yesterday, actually: https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2020/04/ceo-accused-of-fraud-forced-to-auction-exquisite-car-collection/

      however, today was sunny and (somewhat) warm, so I had motorcycles to ride instead.

  • avatar
    Arthur Dailey

    @TheLaine, The US navy has taken a fleet carrier out of service and quarantined half its crew. But you know more than they do?

    Foreign enemies of the USA, who have locked down their populations would certainly benefit from the USA opening too soon and severely weakening its military and civilian capabilities.

    You keep posting like the science of this virus was and is known. It isn’t. That is the major problem. For example can asymptomatic people transmit the virus? Can people be re-infected? At what point are they most infectious?

    These were not known and some are still under debate. Hence the need for isolation. Jurisdictions that strictly enforced rules have indeed ‘flattened the curve’. Those that didn’t have not.

    And flattening the curve is what prevented trailers of corpses and overworked healthcare workers.

    Rather than cherry picking from Alt-Right sources, the research published by respected journals and the findings of front line workers are what we need to value.

    They overwhelmingly support self-isolation and quarantine.

    I have posted some pertinent links.

    And in Canada, people will not die due to poverty during this pandemic. Everyone out of work is to receive $2k per month. Those on the front lines in Ontario are receiving an additional $4 per hour in wages through the government. Companies that continue to employ workers can receive tax relief of up to 75% of wage costs.

    https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2020/04/24/ontario-could-learn-a-lot-about-data-collection-and-testing-from-four-countries-ahead-of-the-covid-19-curve.html?li_source=LI&li_medium=thestar_recommended_for_you

    https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2020/04/26/some-nations-inch-toward-reopening-global-death-toll-from-covid-19-surpasses-200000-singapore-reports-a-surge-in-cases-with-931-new-infections.html?li_source=LI&li_medium=star_web_ymbii

    • 0 avatar
      Scoutdude

      Yeah people aren’t going to die from poverty in the US either. Unemployment checks are getting a $600/week bonus. That means that a worker in my state who makes less than $62,500 per year will see an increase in their income, once the checks start rolling in.

      https://www.seattletimes.com/business/economy/jobless-benefits-for-some-will-exceed-their-wages-thanks-to-boost-from-coronavirus-relief-package/

      This is causing a problem with the Paycheck Protection Program loans that some small business have received. The workers are saying that they want to continue their layoff status, and not be on the company pay roll, since they are making more money from unemployment.

      A number of companies in the US are also giving bonus pay to their workers in addition to getting more overtime, and have been hiring to meet the demand.

    • 0 avatar
      Art Vandelay

      “@TheLaine, The US navy has taken a fleet carrier out of service and quarantined half its crew. But you know more than they do?”

      As one who spent many years being “treated” by Army and Navy “Doctors” I’d just say he might.

  • avatar
    thelaine

    Seriously, Art?

    ALT RIGHT???? THESE ARE THE GUYS YOU REJECT BECAUSE THEY ARE “ALT-RIGHT?”

    You are living in a delusional bubble, Art, or you are getting increasingly desperate to defend a position you know is wrong. You were hysterical and terrified, and that is why you panicked. And now you cannot admit it. If you can prove these sources are “alt-right,” then you win. I will concede you have been correct all the time, and I will walk away and never post on this site again. If you cannot, then just admit your call for “experts” was a complete red herring, because you are impervious to argument because you are a religious zealot and your religion is leftism. There are about five of them, from all over world. Have at it, Art.

    In a fascinating open letter to German Prime Minister Angela Merkel, epidemiologist Mihai Grigoriu concludes that with the French study, corroborated by findings from a Stanford antibody seroprevalence study in Santa Clara county, “the case for extreme measures collapses like a house of cards.” Grigoriu says that since the virus has already spread widely in the general population, efforts to stop further spread are both futile and destructive.

    The news is filled with stories of healthy young people who die of
    coronavirus. But Dr. Ioannidis recently published a paper with his
    wife, Despina Contopoulos-Ioannidis, an infectious-disease specialist
    at Stanford, that showed this to be a classic man-bites-dog story. The
    couple found that people under 65 without underlying conditions
    accounted for only 0.7% of coronavirus deaths in Italy and 1.8% in New
    York City.
    “Compared to almost any other cause of disease that I can think of, it’s

    really sparing young people. I’m not saying that the lives of 80-year-
    olds do not have value—they do,” he says. “But there’s far, far, far

    more . . . young people who commit suicide.” If the panic and
    attendant disruption continue, he says, “we will see many young
    people committing suicide . . . just because we are spreading horror
    stories with Covid-19. There’s far, far more young people who get
    cancer and will not be treated, because again, they will not go to the
    hospital to get treated because of Covid-19. There’s far, far more
    people whose mental health will collapse.”

    Sweden’s chief epidemiologist has doubled down on his optimism regarding the coronavirus in his country, asserting that in a matter of weeks herd immunity could be reached in Sweden’s capital, Stockholm.

    Dr. Anders Tegnell, chief epidemiologist at Sweden’s Public Health Agency, told CNBC, “In major parts of Sweden, around Stockholm, we have reached a plateau (in new cases) and we’re already seeing the effect of herd immunity and in a few weeks’ time we’ll see even more of the effects of that. And in the rest of the country, the situation is stable.” He added that sampling and modeling data showed 20% of Stockholm’s population is already immune to the coronavirus, and that “in a few weeks’ time we might reach herd immunity and we believe that is why we’re seeing a slow decline in cases, in spite of sampling (testing for the coronavirus) more and more.”

    Acknowledging the roughly 1,500 people who have died in his country as well as the 14,385 people in Sweden who have tested positive for coronavirus, Tegnell said the situation “is not a failure for the overall strategy. It is a failure to protect our elderly who live in care homes,” as the New York Daily News reported.

    Professor Johan Giesecke, one of the world’s most senior epidemiologists, advisor to the Swedish Government (he hired Anders Tegnell who is currently directing Swedish strategy), the first Chief Scientist of the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control, and an advisor to the director general of the WHO, lays out with typically Swedish bluntness why he thinks:

    UK policy on lockdown and other European countries are not evidence-based.

    The correct policy is to protect the old and the frail only.

    This will eventually lead to herd immunity as a “by-product.”

    The initial UK response, before the “180 degree U-turn”, was better.

    The Imperial College paper was “not very good” and he has never seen an unpublished paper have so much policy impact.

    The paper was very much too pessimistic.

    Any such models are a dubious basis for public policy anyway.

    The flattening of the curve is due to the most vulnerable dying first as much as the lockdown.

    The results will eventually be similar for all countries.

    Covid-19 is a “mild disease” and similar to the flu, and it was the novelty of the disease that scared people.

    The actual fatality rate of Covid-19 is the region of 0.1%.

    At least 50% of the population of both the UK and Sweden will be shown to have already had the disease when mass antibody testing becomes available.

    Scott W. Atlas, MD, is the David and Joan Traitel Senior Fellow at Stanford University’s Hoover Institution and the former chief of neuroradiology at Stanford University Medical Center. Not an “expert” though….

    This guy agrees with the dissidents. He has a great article in the Hill.

    https://thehill.com/opinion/healthcare/494034-the-data-are-in-stop-the-panic-and-end-the-total-isolation

    We paranoid black web dissident cultists have been saying this for five weeks. Wake up, hysteric community.

    “The appropriate policy, based on fundamental biology and the evidence already in hand, is to institute a more focused strategy like some outlined in the first place: Strictly protect the known vulnerable, self-isolate the mildly sick and open most workplaces and small businesses with some prudent large-group precautions. This would allow the essential socializing to generate immunity among those with minimal risk of serious consequence, while saving lives, preventing overcrowding of hospitals and limiting the enormous harms compounded by continued total isolation. Let’s stop underemphasizing empirical evidence while instead doubling down on hypothetical models. Facts matter.”

  • avatar
    el scotto

    OK, from the top about COVID-19. I’m a government contractor in D.C. For the other “Beltway Bandits” on here, I’m “essential personnel. The US Government set down CPVID-19 guidelines. Not some talking head, not some pundit, nor left or right wing blogs/news sites; the US Government. I humbly suggest that those one here saying “it’s just the flu” or other such nonsense please come to D.C. and get things squared away. To be more useful, they should go talk to anyone working in a hospital. If it’s a ” hoax” or not, they’ve all been working flat out. Going on-line and sending some food their way probably would be a much better use of your time. Oh, and I can’t wait for the more egregious on here to say “It’s Obama leftovers” causing all the government guidelines. No, it hasn’t been said yet; it’s just a matter of time. I review and edit multiple writings as the course of my work. The more specious or obscure your research is, the more likely I’ll reject it. Peer reviewed articles? Yes. Obscure websites founded with an agenda? No. If you’re not smart enough to research your sources, don’t quote them. This not to say that I don’t respect someones comments that don’t read like college paper. Different opinions are good as long as they don’t cause harm. Trolls will always seek larger bridges to live under.

    • 0 avatar
      Lie2me

      Well said, but I bet someone will get on here and refute everything you just said, because they didn’t hear it on FOX News :(

    • 0 avatar
      thelaine

      There you sit, fat and happy, while tens of millions of Americans are thrown into unemployment and poverty because of the government lockdown policy. And your advice? The government knows best. Don’t question the wisdom of their policies. Submit and comply.

      OK boomer. I know who butters your bread. Why should you care about the science? Don’t bother to read it. Put your fingers in your ears. Glory in your ignorance. Worship your government. As long as they keep you in clover, it’s all good.

      • 0 avatar
        el scotto

        @the laine; You’re starting out 0 for 2, but a losing does seem to be a recurring theme in your life. 1. I am NOT sitting her fat, dumb, and happy, although Dean Wormer said fat, drunk, and stupid is no way to go through life. 2. Your reading comprehension is really non-existent. What I did say is that THE LANSTER and Eeeby need to go to D.C. and get them squared away. Yeah, I’m involved with science every fricking day. A great deal of what I work involves physics and comprehension of of pentasyllable words. The government does email its personnel and inform them of what is going on. COVID-19 reporting is included in those emails. So, nice try; review material and resubmit. In closing, have an even more miserable day.

        • 0 avatar
          Lie2me

          ” Dean Wormer said fat, drunk, and stupid is no way to go through life”

          Lol, My favorite quote from “Animal House” and one I’ve had to use too often these last few weeks

        • 0 avatar
          thelaine

          Well, you cannot seem to look up. Here, I will re-post it for you. These are scientific sources.

          In a fascinating open letter to German Prime Minister Angela Merkel, epidemiologist Mihai Grigoriu concludes that with the French study, corroborated by findings from a Stanford antibody seroprevalence study in Santa Clara county, “the case for extreme measures collapses like a house of cards.” Grigoriu says that since the virus has already spread widely in the general population, efforts to stop further spread are both futile and destructive.

          The news is filled with stories of healthy young people who die of
          coronavirus. But Dr. Ioannidis recently published a paper with his
          wife, Despina Contopoulos-Ioannidis, an infectious-disease specialist
          at Stanford, that showed this to be a classic man-bites-dog story. The
          couple found that people under 65 without underlying conditions
          accounted for only 0.7% of coronavirus deaths in Italy and 1.8% in New
          York City.
          “Compared to almost any other cause of disease that I can think of, it’s

          really sparing young people. I’m not saying that the lives of 80-year-
          olds do not have value—they do,” he says. “But there’s far, far, far

          more . . . young people who commit suicide.” If the panic and
          attendant disruption continue, he says, “we will see many young
          people committing suicide . . . just because we are spreading horror
          stories with Covid-19. There’s far, far more young people who get
          cancer and will not be treated, because again, they will not go to the
          hospital to get treated because of Covid-19. There’s far, far more
          people whose mental health will collapse.”

          Sweden’s chief epidemiologist has doubled down on his optimism regarding the coronavirus in his country, asserting that in a matter of weeks herd immunity could be reached in Sweden’s capital, Stockholm.

          Dr. Anders Tegnell, chief epidemiologist at Sweden’s Public Health Agency, told CNBC, “In major parts of Sweden, around Stockholm, we have reached a plateau (in new cases) and we’re already seeing the effect of herd immunity and in a few weeks’ time we’ll see even more of the effects of that. And in the rest of the country, the situation is stable.” He added that sampling and modeling data showed 20% of Stockholm’s population is already immune to the coronavirus, and that “in a few weeks’ time we might reach herd immunity and we believe that is why we’re seeing a slow decline in cases, in spite of sampling (testing for the coronavirus) more and more.”

          Acknowledging the roughly 1,500 people who have died in his country as well as the 14,385 people in Sweden who have tested positive for coronavirus, Tegnell said the situation “is not a failure for the overall strategy. It is a failure to protect our elderly who live in care homes,” as the New York Daily News reported.

          Professor Johan Giesecke, one of the world’s most senior epidemiologists, advisor to the Swedish Government (he hired Anders Tegnell who is currently directing Swedish strategy), the first Chief Scientist of the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control, and an advisor to the director general of the WHO, lays out with typically Swedish bluntness why he thinks:

          UK policy on lockdown and other European countries are not evidence-based.

          The correct policy is to protect the old and the frail only.

          This will eventually lead to herd immunity as a “by-product.”

          The initial UK response, before the “180 degree U-turn”, was better.

          The Imperial College paper was “not very good” and he has never seen an unpublished paper have so much policy impact.

          The paper was very much too pessimistic.

          Any such models are a dubious basis for public policy anyway.

          The flattening of the curve is due to the most vulnerable dying first as much as the lockdown.

          The results will eventually be similar for all countries.

          Covid-19 is a “mild disease” and similar to the flu, and it was the novelty of the disease that scared people.

          The actual fatality rate of Covid-19 is the region of 0.1%.

          At least 50% of the population of both the UK and Sweden will be shown to have already had the disease when mass antibody testing becomes available.

          Scott W. Atlas, MD, is the David and Joan Traitel Senior Fellow at Stanford University’s Hoover Institution and the former chief of neuroradiology at Stanford University Medical Center. Not an “expert” though….

          This guy agrees with the dissidents. He has a great article in the Hill.

          https://thehill.com/opinion/healthcare/494034-the-data-are-in-stop-the-panic-and-end-the-total-isolation

          We paranoid black web dissident cultists have been saying this for five weeks. Wake up, hysteric community.

          “The appropriate policy, based on fundamental biology and the evidence already in hand, is to institute a more focused strategy like some outlined in the first place: Strictly protect the known vulnerable, self-isolate the mildly sick and open most workplaces and small businesses with some prudent large-group precautions. This would allow the essential socializing to generate immunity among those with minimal risk of serious consequence, while saving lives, preventing overcrowding of hospitals and limiting the enormous harms compounded by continued total isolation. Let’s stop underemphasizing empirical evidence while instead doubling down on hypothetical models. Facts matter.”

          • 0 avatar
            el scotto

            Nice, several paragraphs you cited one source. Is it really that hard to look up publications and publishing dates? It makes one more credible.

          • 0 avatar
            EBFlex

            “Is it really that hard to look up publications and publishing dates?”

            Clearly it is because you seemingly have no clue what a search engine is or how to use it.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            @EBflex and @thelaine – “Clearly it is because you seemingly have no clue what a search engine is or how to use it.”

            Google or any similar platform isn’t where anyone trained in research/science will look for legitimate information. They will go to medical data bases like PUB-MED, CINAHL Plus, or the Cochrane Library. “UPTODATE” is a great source of information since it is their job to review research and post condensed and comprehensive “best practice” information.
            I doubt the both of you would have access to those sorts of sites because you either would not be granted access or even remotely know how to use them.

    • 0 avatar
      thelaine

      “Obscure websites founded with an agenda…”

      You mean like this guy?

      Professor Johan Giesecke, one of the world’s most senior epidemiologists, advisor to the Swedish Government (he hired Anders Tegnell who is currently directing Swedish strategy), the first Chief Scientist of the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control, and an advisor to the director general of the WHO

      • 0 avatar
        el scotto

        @the lanester; you didn’t cite a source, you wrote out some guys name. Please review the rules and try again.

        • 0 avatar
          thelaine

          scotty, look up. It’s all in the previous post. I Know government contractors are lazy, but geez

          • 0 avatar
            el scotto

            @lanester; this is my last one and I’m letting it go. I really don’t care what you say as long as I can look it up. Publication names, publication dates. Cite your sources as you write; give me 47 footnotes; I don’t care. Cutting and pasting what could generously called “research notes, is just cutting and pasting. I might despise what you are writing and vehemently disagree with it but if you provide sourcing and and facts, I’d approve it. Here, try something like this: “President Trump suggested injecting disinfectants to cure COVID-19” White House press briefing, 23 April 2020. Keep at it little slugger, you’ll get the hang of it.

          • 0 avatar
            thelaine

            la scotta,

            I have never seen anyone who bragged so much about their intellect and work ethic who was so ignorant and lazy. Try google.

            I have given cites to every one of these scientists in prior posts, but it is just a game for people like you, because you will never read them. If you actually had any intellectual curiosity whatsoever, you would use google and look up these quoted scientists. They are not hard to find. However, you are not serious about learning about a different perspective on the shutdown. It has caused profound economic devastation, and that should be taken into account. The virus is not the Black Death. We should not destroy ourselves to fight it. That is the perspective in a nutshell. There are many scientists and others both in the United States and around the world, who agree that we should not destroy our economy in response to this virus.

            If you were no so busy sucking down the tax money of working people, you could find this information in about 15 minutes. I have given you a place to start. You won’t, because your mind is a closed tuna can, and you are lazy, well-fed on someone else’s dime, arrogant and self-satisfied. Actual scientists are skeptics.

        • 0 avatar
          thelaine

          Here, genius.

          In a fascinating open letter to German Prime Minister Angela Merkel, epidemiologist Mihai Grigoriu concludes that with the French study, corroborated by findings from a Stanford antibody seroprevalence study in Santa Clara county, “the case for extreme measures collapses like a house of cards.” Grigoriu says that since the virus has already spread widely in the general population, efforts to stop further spread are both futile and destructive.

          The news is filled with stories of healthy young people who die of
          coronavirus. But Dr. Ioannidis recently published a paper with his
          wife, Despina Contopoulos-Ioannidis, an infectious-disease specialist
          at Stanford, that showed this to be a classic man-bites-dog story. The
          couple found that people under 65 without underlying conditions
          accounted for only 0.7% of coronavirus deaths in Italy and 1.8% in New
          York City.
          “Compared to almost any other cause of disease that I can think of, it’s

          really sparing young people. I’m not saying that the lives of 80-year-
          olds do not have value—they do,” he says. “But there’s far, far, far

          more . . . young people who commit suicide.” If the panic and
          attendant disruption continue, he says, “we will see many young
          people committing suicide . . . just because we are spreading horror
          stories with Covid-19. There’s far, far more young people who get
          cancer and will not be treated, because again, they will not go to the
          hospital to get treated because of Covid-19. There’s far, far more
          people whose mental health will collapse.”

          Sweden’s chief epidemiologist has doubled down on his optimism regarding the coronavirus in his country, asserting that in a matter of weeks herd immunity could be reached in Sweden’s capital, Stockholm.

          Dr. Anders Tegnell, chief epidemiologist at Sweden’s Public Health Agency, told CNBC, “In major parts of Sweden, around Stockholm, we have reached a plateau (in new cases) and we’re already seeing the effect of herd immunity and in a few weeks’ time we’ll see even more of the effects of that. And in the rest of the country, the situation is stable.” He added that sampling and modeling data showed 20% of Stockholm’s population is already immune to the coronavirus, and that “in a few weeks’ time we might reach herd immunity and we believe that is why we’re seeing a slow decline in cases, in spite of sampling (testing for the coronavirus) more and more.”

          Acknowledging the roughly 1,500 people who have died in his country as well as the 14,385 people in Sweden who have tested positive for coronavirus, Tegnell said the situation “is not a failure for the overall strategy. It is a failure to protect our elderly who live in care homes,” as the New York Daily News reported.

          Professor Johan Giesecke, one of the world’s most senior epidemiologists, advisor to the Swedish Government (he hired Anders Tegnell who is currently directing Swedish strategy), the first Chief Scientist of the European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control, and an advisor to the director general of the WHO, lays out with typically Swedish bluntness why he thinks:

          UK policy on lockdown and other European countries are not evidence-based.

          The correct policy is to protect the old and the frail only.

          This will eventually lead to herd immunity as a “by-product.”

          The initial UK response, before the “180 degree U-turn”, was better.

          The Imperial College paper was “not very good” and he has never seen an unpublished paper have so much policy impact.

          The paper was very much too pessimistic.

          Any such models are a dubious basis for public policy anyway.

          The flattening of the curve is due to the most vulnerable dying first as much as the lockdown.

          The results will eventually be similar for all countries.

          Covid-19 is a “mild disease” and similar to the flu, and it was the novelty of the disease that scared people.

          The actual fatality rate of Covid-19 is the region of 0.1%.

          At least 50% of the population of both the UK and Sweden will be shown to have already had the disease when mass antibody testing becomes available.

          Scott W. Atlas, MD, is the David and Joan Traitel Senior Fellow at Stanford University’s Hoover Institution and the former chief of neuroradiology at Stanford University Medical Center. Not an “expert” though….

          This guy agrees with the dissidents. He has a great article in the Hill.

          https://thehill.com/opinion/healthcare/494034-the-data-are-in-stop-the-panic-and-end-the-total-isolation

          We paranoid black web dissident cultists have been saying this for five weeks. Wake up, hysteric community.

          “The appropriate policy, based on fundamental biology and the evidence already in hand, is to institute a more focused strategy like some outlined in the first place: Strictly protect the known vulnerable, self-isolate the mildly sick and open most workplaces and small businesses with some prudent large-group precautions. This would allow the essential socializing to generate immunity among those with minimal risk of serious consequence, while saving lives, preventing overcrowding of hospitals and limiting the enormous harms compounded by continued total isolation. Let’s stop underemphasizing empirical evidence while instead doubling down on hypothetical models. Facts matter.”

        • 0 avatar
          thelaine

          Scotty,

          As you suck down taxpayer money and belch up useless work product, try doing more than reading what is spoon fed to you in your work inbox.

      • 0 avatar
        el scotto

        You still didn’t tell us when and where this was published. Readers Digest and Neil Cavuto don’t count. It’s not hard to do if you just focus and give it all for the team.

    • 0 avatar
      Lie2me

      Told you, el scotto

      • 0 avatar
        el scotto

        @ Lie2Me, thank you kind sir. The heavy lifting of having an outline, citing sources, and verifying said sources is just too much hard work for them. We’re getting the TTAC version of Barbies who say “math is hard”. BTW, my blonde sister and niece hate that doll.

        • 0 avatar
          thelaine

          Oh look, the spectacularly lazy government contractor wants an “outline.”

          Hilarious. Now I know why you are profoundly ignorant. It is because you are profoundly lazy.

          • 0 avatar
            el scotto

            @ thealine, considering the source, I consider being called ignorant and lazy a compliment. One of the reasons I work for the government is that I get to work on bleeding-edge high tech stuff. I’ve worked on and delivered this stuff to people who were profoundly glad to receive it. I doubt if you know what is like to be profoundly tired after working a 92 hour week. Just returning yur serve. Deuce.

          • 0 avatar
            EBFlex

            “Oh look, the spectacularly lazy government contractor wants an “outline.”

            Hilarious. Now I know why you are profoundly ignorant. It is because you are profoundly lazy.”

            It’s no shock that these are the same people that are too lazy to come up with a critical thought and just believe whatever they are being spoon fed by their puppet masters (ie the media).

            Or they actually want this to continue. Part of me believes people that appear so obtuse are actually just wanting this to continue.

            That’s the only answer to people who deny that the infection rate in three separate studies is vastly higher than originally thought thus significantly lowering the mortality rate. When presented with such a basic concept they completely close their brain, start to name call, and essentially throw a tantrum.

            The lock down guidance was made on effing models that stated 200k+ deaths. Then that number was significantly lowered WHILE it was discovered infection rates were 50-85 TIMES higher than expected. But let’s keep the economy closed…brilliant.

            People die. That’s life. People die from cancer, people die from heart attacks, people die from the flu, people die from sepsis, etc. But we deserve a stronger reason to shutter the economy than a rather benign virus.

      • 0 avatar
        thelaine

        Lie,

        You are a cackling little remora.

    • 0 avatar
      EBFlex

      El Scotto:

      “blah blah blah gotta go with the narrative and reject critical thought based on facts presented”

      I guess USC, Stanford and the GD CDC/Fauci are not strong enough sources for you.

      It’s sad that you consider trolls those who reject bling following of the government in the face of facts that contradict the numbers used to justify these silly lock downs.

      An actual death rate of .1-.3% and we are shutting down the world. Such an amazingly short sighted course of action.

      • 0 avatar
        Lou_BC

        @EBFlex, @thelaine – el scotto’s request isn’t all that hard. (having an outline, citing sources, and verifying said sources)

        btw – citing Dr. Oz or Dr. Phil doesn’t count as corroborating evidence. Citing King COVID #45 is laughable not scientific.

        Calling me a snowflake or having TDS or whatever doesn’t remotely count as a solid rebuttal.

        • 0 avatar
          Lie2me

          Yet, it’s the “snowflakes” that people are turning to (Cuomo Newsom)for leadership and intelligent guidance through this ordeal and it’s the “snowflakes” that the people will turn to in November to fix this mess, while the Trumpers stamp their little feet and pound their little fists, because they’re not be coddled and appeased

          Funny that

        • 0 avatar
          EBFlex

          “@EBFlex, @thelaine – el scotto’s request isn’t all that hard. (having an outline, citing sources, and verifying said sources)

          btw – citing Dr. Oz or Dr. Phil doesn’t count as corroborating evidence. Citing King COVID #45 is laughable not scientific.”

          Nice to see you have a raging case of TDS as well…

          Obviously it is difficult because he can’t do it. Nor can you, or Jimbo, or Lie.

          Frankly I don’t need an outline and whatever other ridiculous stipulations he needs to his argument in the comment section on a car blog.

          Two independent studies were done by Stanford and USC showing infection rates 50 to 85 times higher than the “experts” realized. That does need an outline, that doesn’t need to have sources cited because you can type that into any search engine and come up with hundreds of reports on it and it does not need to have the sources verified because, again, it’s just right there staring you in the face.

          We also don’t need all that nonsense for my statement that the “experts” (Fauci and co) have drastically lowered the numbers of dying from 200k to I believe around 60k. That’s just a fact no peer review or outline needed.

          As a result of those two items (much higher infection rate and lower death numbers), LOGIC dictates that your mortality rate plummets.

          Now, tell me where you got lost reading that. I’m not sure how people that are allowed to vote and interact with society are incapable of grasping such an elementary concept.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            “Nice to see you have a raging case of TDS as well…”
            LOL.
            That was predictable…
            Does UV light up one’s azz or injecting disinfectants work on TDS?
            “That’s just a fact no peer review or outline needed.”
            You are for the most part quoting articles in the news that confirm your bias. That information falls into the realm of “grey literature”.
            Grey literature is information produced outside of traditional scientific publishing and distribution channels.
            Generally speaking, using Google will only get you superficial access to sound information but more likely will give you what is attracting more hits. It isn’t necessarily accurate or correct.
            The reason why peer review and corroborating evidence is required is so those who actually know what they are doing can make adjustments.
            Expert/peer analysis often finds flaws in the analysis. Several of the news stories you cited on COVID-19 have been shown to be severely flawed.
            If you think you have the answers, run for politics. I’m certain you’d have zero credibility with any of the actual experts just like King COVID #45 has zero credibility.
            I am starting to believe that TDS stands for Trumpian D!p Sh!t.

      • 0 avatar
        thelaine

        EB,

        They provide zero evidence that economic lockdown is not more damaging than a less radical approach, but they demand to be bottle-fed evidence to the contrary. I would think that an advocate of a radical and extraordinarily destructive policy which has no precedent in US history would bear the burden of proof, but I guess not. If it is broadcast on TV, they sit in front of it and absorb it. Anything beyond that, is an intellectual bridge too far.

        • 0 avatar
          EBFlex

          It’s what they do. They’re being good little puppets.

          Completely incapable of critical thought and only able to follow the party line.

          If they were told the sky was green they would admonish anyone that had the audacity to look up and go “but it looks blue to me”. They would ask for peer reviewed studies and outlines to prove that the sky was blue. When you present them with pictures and evidence that’s been shared around the world and is easily researched that shows the sky is blue they would still dismiss it because their political overlords demanded they say the sky is green..

          What This really comes down to, if you peel back all the layers of this onion is orange man bad. But I bet every last one of em kept the $1,200 rather than sending it back. What frauds.

  • avatar
    el scotto

    -Said with a sardonic grin- There is no prize for winning the internetz. I wish some of our commenters would figure that out. Oh shucks, now I expect quotes about someone winning said internetz. Or even worse, they figure out they can make their very own and super-special websites and post bunkum to it. Then cite their self created website and go “look it’s been quoted twice”. Sadly both sides of the political spectrum do this. Mother Jones is just as bad as some of our posters beloved Sean Hannity. The world is fair and balanced, many sources aren’t, you decide.

    • 0 avatar
      Lou_BC

      @el scotto – “Or even worse, they figure out they can make their very own and super-special websites and post bunkum to it.”

      Oh please don’t suggest that… we don’t need more Gab’s,Daily Stormer’s, WrongThink (alt-Facebook), PewTube (alt-YouTube), Voat (alt-Reddit), Infogalactic (alt-Wikipedia) and GoyFundMe (alt-Kickstarter).

      One Infowars is one too many.

      • 0 avatar
        EBFlex

        Hilarious that you’re insinuating studies from USC, Stanford and the simple drastic lowering of death numbers by Fauci and Co as some sort of radical, tin foil hat conspiracy that should be on Infowars, etc.

        • 0 avatar
          Lou_BC

          @EBFlex – LOL, I’m not ridiculing USC, Stanford et al. I’m at the point where I’m just ridiculing those who data mine superficially to prove their point.

          Why don’t you and @thelaine get a lawyer to fill out some wavers for you and have some doctors or nurses plunk you in a COVID-19 unit sans PPE for a few hours. In 2-3 weeks time you can get back to me on how that worked out for you.

          • 0 avatar
            EBFlex

            You absolutely are dismissing their studies. You refuse to acknowledge that there have been three preliminary studies that all show the same results…..infections are far higher than expected. and because infection rates are higher, your mortality rate is far lower. That’s my only argument. And you are dismissing that.

            And what would your little dare prove other than exposure to a virus will most likely lead to contracting said virus.

            Please show me where I ever said this virus isn’t easily spread. Go on I’ll wait.

            If I did contract it, it’s safe to assume I would experience what the vast majority of people have experienced….cold and flu symptoms for a few days. And then I’d get over it and be fine. Although I’m pretty convinced I’ve already had it.

            But good for you for making yet another stupid statement!

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            @EBFlex – which studies am I dismissing?

            I already pointed out that several of the studies the @thelaine cited have been torn apart not just by epidemiologists but by statisticians. Their assumptions were flawed and so was their math. That is why peer review is important.

            As far as Sweden, you have have to take a look at several factors. Saying that they haven’t done any mitigation is false. Swedes are voluntarily being more cautious and social distancing. Their age demographics are different than the USA and cities aren’t as crowded.

            “Please show me where I ever said this virus isn’t easily spread.”

            That wasn’t my point.

            This is my point:

            If you believe that it isn’t very deadly,if you believe it is no more lethal than the flu, then why not sign a waver and walk around in a COVID-19 ward. Bring your family and friends.

            80% have mild symptoms. 20% are more severe. Roughly 5% is deadly.
            You might do okay, but how’d you feel if you passed it on to your wife, or your parents and they weren’t so lucky?

          • 0 avatar
            EBFlex

            “80% have mild symptoms. 20% are more severe. Roughly 5% is deadly.”

            Lol you actually believe the actual mortality rate is 5%?

            You’re the type of person to test two and say the mortality rate is 50% when one dies completely ignoring the millions more that are or were infected.

            The *actual* death rate is closer to .1 to .3 when you factor in the *actual* infection rate (being 50-85 times higher).

            I’ve had coworkers that have had it (One who has multiple myeloma) and it was essentially cold to flu symptoms for a few days.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            @EBflex – “I’ve had coworkers that have had it(One who has multiple myeloma)”

            I should just ignore you and walk away but the paramedic in me loves a wreck….

            Three questions:
            1. Did they clinically test positive for COVID-19, especially the fellow with multiple myeloma?
            2. Multiple myeloma dude – what is his white cell count?
            3. Multiple myeloma dude – is he on active treatment or has been treated recently?

            “cold and flu symptoms for a few days”

            Okay………. As far as making a diagnosis, cold, flu, COVID-19, seasonal allergies, and bullsh!t are 5 differential diagnosis that come to mind when I read your post!

  • avatar
    OverHypedVirusVSTheB&B

    LOL this place has gone to s#!t. Can’t say anything lest the B&B AKA douchebag clan chime in with their expertise, which includes crapping on anyone and anything they don’t agree with. Don’t worry everyone, sure ol john boy there is an expert and had a career in engineering yesterday, but today he/she is a Doctor. This place is a [email protected]#king joke.

    • 0 avatar
      Lie2me

      Hi, Vladimir, good to see you again, I’ll bet Moscow is lovely this time of year

    • 0 avatar
      mcs

      “and had a career in engineering yesterday, but today he/she is a Doctor.”

      Actually, that does happen. My current research is in AI and I originally had a software/hardware background including automotive manufacturing-related automation. Later worked on aviation collision avoidance systems. While looking for ways to improve collision avoidance systems, I became interested in bio-modeled/neuro-morphic AI which involves learning neuroscience and biology along with the ability to design custom circuitry. My current goal is a combined engineering and neuroscience Ph.D. that a major medical school offers. I need the resources they have to perform the kind of research I want to do. There’s a lot of prerequisite work I need to do to qualify for the program. Lots of friends of mine are professors at that med school and they’ve been working with me. One of the activities is helping out with data analysis on research studies and developing new analysis tools. Most of the work I’ve been doing is neuroscience-related, but I’ve done some immunology related work. I’ve also learned how to perform numerous medical procedures.

      I can’t claim to be an engineer that became an Md-Ph.D. or Ph.D. yet, but give me a few years. When I do, I won’t be the first or the last.

      This program is at a different school and is different than what I’m doing, but is a good example of someone that is both a Doctor and an engineer: https://www.esm.psu.edu/academics/graduate/joint-md-phd-engineering-science-and-mechanics.aspx

      • 0 avatar
        Lou_BC

        @mcs – good for you.

        I know an orthopedic surgeon who was a structural engineer first. The two disciplines aren’t that far apart. I also knew an Internal Medicine Specialist that had a masters in chemistry. Those two roles are also complimentary.

  • avatar
    thelaine

    Covid-19: Not Nearly As Dangerous As You Think
    A sober look at the facts.
    Mon Apr 27, 2020
    Robert J. Shillman, Ph.D.

    42
    Share to Facebook653Share to TwitterShare to More90Share to Print

    There is no “urgent crisis” due to Covid-19 that requires a lock-down of citizens. That conclusion is based on the following:

    * The probability of dying from the virus in the US is very low: 1.5 out of 10,000.

    * The death rate attributed to Covid-19 in the US, which has placed increasing restrictions on people, is about the same as the death rate in Sweden, 2.0 out of 10,000, which has placed very limited restrictions on people.

    Read below for objective details that lead to that conclusion:

    Sources of Data: I used the most recent data for Covid-19 from the four websites below on 4/24/20.
    [1] The Johns Hopkins’ website (for deaths by country…other than in the US).

    [2] Worldometers (for deaths in the US).

    [3] CDC (for deaths by age).

    [4] Wikipedia (for population): The US has a population of 329,064,917, and Sweden has a population of 10,036,379.

    Probability of Dying from Covid-19 in the U.S.

    The number of deaths from the virus in the US is 50,988. The probability of dying from the virus in the U.S., therefore, is equal to the number of deaths divided by the U.S. population: 50,988/329,064,917 = 0.00015 = 0.015% = 1.5 chances out of 10,000 — a very, very low probability.
    For comparison, 61,099 Americans died of the ordinary flu two seasons ago. That means that the chance of dying from the ordinary flu was 1.9 out of 10,000, which is higher than the Covid-19 death rate.
    Furthermore, when you take into account that most of the deaths from Covid-19 were of older people with underlying medical issues, the chance of younger (under 55), healthy individuals dying from the virus is much, much lower — probably 1.5 chances out of 100,000.
    Probability of Dying from Covid-19 in Sweden.

    Sweden has had 2,152 deaths out of a population of 10.12 million, so the probability of dying from the virus in Sweden is about 0.02% = 2 chances out of 10,000; very low and not much different than the US death rate.
    Conclusions:
    * If you’re over 55 or have serious health issues, there is a greater risk of dying from Covid-19 (or any flu) than if you’re under 55 and are in generally good health. So the prudent thing for older people or people with underlying health conditions to do is follow the CDC guidelines carefully and stay away from crowds.
    * Everyone else should just chill-out and go back to work.

    After receiving his Ph.D. in Artificial Intelligence at M.I.T., Doctor Shillman founded Cognex Corporation, currently the world’s leading provider of machine vision systems, computers that can “see,” that are used in factories around the world to guide the manufacturing and distribution of products ranging from potato chips to computer chips.

    • 0 avatar
      Lou_BC

      @El Scotto – You gotta give him an “E” for effort.

      @thelaine – you are still searching to confirm just what you believe is true.

      In my province, the BC CDC has come up with several models using various data points to determine a strategy for reopening the province. The USA has done the same. In BC, we are following that strategy, is the USA?

      Here is a tidbit that should worry you. Roughly a week post Easter long weekend we saw a very high spike in new cases. Many in the population had chosen not to follow distancing guidelines over that weekend. One weekend combined with an outbreak at a processing plant where social distancing wasn’t happening caused new cases to spike as high as our worst early days.
      That isn’t fake news. It doesn’t require an expert interpretation. Cases spiked due to relaxed measures. Those numbers have dropped because of a plan that is in place.

    • 0 avatar
      Lou_BC

      Why don’t you say that there have been 211,000 deaths in the world and since there are 7.594 billion people in the world that means the odds of it killing you are 0.00000027785 percent. (I’m assuming that is correct, my calculator isn’t too fond of that math. LOL

  • avatar
    SuperCarEnthusiast

    “… there will be masks of the basic, non-N95 variety.”

    Only the N95 and N99 masks are effective against viruses!

  • avatar
    piratethecat

    I will die from reading these half-baked comments before I die of anything else. Good God.

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  • dal20402: Ugh, no stick. If it had a stick I would do irrational things to get my hands on this. If this follows...
  • ajla: This is only the 2nd Honda product ever that I would be interested in owning (the other is the Odyssey but...
  • dal20402: The transverse versions have the internal pump, the longitudinal versions (pickups etc.) have it in a more...
  • cimarron typeR: base EB get a trac loc LSD, only ther PP gets a Torsen. Even the v6 got a tracloc too.
  • cimarron typeR: is the 3.5T motor the one with internal water pump? Or was the n/a V6 3.7?

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