By on October 25, 2017

sexual harassment

Automotive News has published the results of a survey it commissioned this spring concerning sexism experienced by women working in the automotive industry.

It’s a coincidence, of course, but it’s interesting timing in the wake of the sexual harassment conversation taking place in the wake of the Harvey Weinstein allegations. One refrain I’ve seen banded about is something like “this doesn’t just happen with powerful people in Hollywood, but in every industry.”

This survey would appear to indicate that the automotive industry is not immune, and personal observational experience from my time in the industry — especially my time in the dealer world — backs that up.

Obviously I’m not a woman, so I can’t imagine what women go through. But I have working eyes and ears, and I heard comments that were absolutely over the line. I was also later told stories about same.

I will let you go read the whole thing, but as a former dealership employee, all I can say is that AN is quantifying something many of us in the industry are aware of.

The story does suggest that some men are clueless when it comes to sexist behavior, and while I don’t doubt that, I suspect many of us in this industry have either experienced or seen harassing behavior, or have heard stories of such. I can’t get into details of what I witnessed and heard about during my time in the dealer world, but it’s safe to say it runs the gamut from off-color jokes to actions that got people fired.

Misogyny wasn’t the only issue – I saw some serious transphobia firsthand when a co-worker transitioned from male to female. Her abilities to diagnose engine troubles in a car became less important to some of her fellow techs than whether she changed into pants or a dress after work.

I don’t have much to add to the Automotive News piece – others have written far more eloquently on the subject than I can. The piece does end on a semi-hopeful note, with a suggestion that things have improved in the past 30 years. That very well may be – it’s been almost exactly a decade since I left that world behind, so I wouldn’t have first-hand knowledge of whether the workplace experience has improved for women.

If you’re wondering why I didn’t stick up for others, well, in some cases I heard about an incident well after it happened – and I wasn’t present for the incident. In other cases, I was too young, too junior in title, and too nice to tell a veteran co-worker twice my age that what they were saying was inappropriate.

I don’t think it’s controversial to say the automotive industry has a problem here that needs to be addressed, nor do I think it’s controversial to say that a conversation about improving needs to be had. Surely, most reasonable people can agree on that, regardless of their own politics or experiences.

That may be naïve, but I am an optimist at heart. Hopefully the numbers will have something much more positive to say the next time a survey like this is commissioned.

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162 Comments on “Survey Shows Sexism Is Still Alive in the Auto Industry...”


  • avatar
    Kyree S. Williams

    At one dealership that I was affiliated with, I had to go upstairs where the owner and general manager sat, in order to fix something on one of their computers. The upstairs area had a giant window that overlooked the showroom floor. So I got to witness those two buffoons look out the window and ogle a woman and her 13-year-old-looking daughter, and loudly proclaim the sexual acts that they’d perform on each female. And one of the female BDC employees was also in the room.

    I was floored.

    This wasn’t that long ago, but my personality has changed since then, and if it were today, I absolutely would have said something.

    • 0 avatar
      ClutchCarGo

      I once sat working in an office where the male employees were yukking it up, and the senior employee present “jokingly” asked the only female present (a blonde doing some data entry) whether the carpet matched the drapes.

      She flushed red but kept her head down, working.

      It was the mid-80s and I’m still ashamed that I said nothing. I was the junior male present and a consultant at a client site, but still…

    • 0 avatar
      rpn453

      And they absolutely would not have cared what you thought, or they wouldn’t be saying those things in the first place.

    • 0 avatar
      TrailerTrash

      Kyree, I love reading what you have to say. You are one of my absolute favs.

      But this is just so wrong on many levels. These discussions about sexual harassment do not understand, or purposefully ignore the reality of the human condition.
      Maybe even doing so is sinister.

      Ya,we should look and recognize our better angles and control, as much as possible, the coded drives given by nature. But we cannot easily toss around rules and right and wrong. In reality, the mating game is not an easy game and now can be easily manipulated by people in false charges and unreal insensitivity claims.

      In reality, the only way to sexually bond is a sensitive, dangerous and aggressive gamble play…by both genders.

      But does anybody here really think IF our world was made up in such a way that women controlled it and were the powerful this would be different? That IF women were in charge there would be no sexual harassment or you would never seen two women staring out the window and jokingly comment on what they would do IF THEY had sex with passing males?

      Have you ever experienced women in groups drinking and acting unafraid and letting themselves say what they want? It is horribly, laughingly sexist.

      The issue here is understanding the inherent violence and predatory characteristics of what it means to be human, or even alive. You consume other living things. Hell, this is going on inside your body, this mad competition for superiority and survival and growth and control.

      And as for the PC righteousness of implying or demanding others to unquestionably accept somebody who decides they are now a different gender just cause it seems like the fair, open-minded thing to do is wrong. Nature is harder then you wishfully demand others to be.

      The genetic make up changes should be looked at skeptically. And it is not wrong or hateful to question the sanity of someone or think that the human mind is but a slight chemical change away from normal to insane. Its a delicate balance, it there is any normal at all.

      The point is this conversation is no different than the battle taking place right now for every life form, any microbe or weed to win the survival battle. This social fight is every bit as real…but it is not so easily brushed aside and labeled as misogyny.

      Actually, the picture in the story pissed me off. Soon we all will be afraid to touch each other and be charged with an assault. We should all become like the modern teenager and simple touch each other by texting or social media…and still be charged with a crime by the though police.

      • 0 avatar
        Kyree S. Williams

        “Kyree, I love reading what you have to say. You are one of my absolute favs.”

        Thanks for the love.

        “But does anybody here really think IF our world was made up in such a way that women controlled it and were the powerful this would be different? That IF women were in charge there would be no sexual harassment or you would never seen two women staring out the window and jokingly comment on what they would do IF THEY had sex with passing males?”

        No, I don’t think a matriarchal society would be any better. But that isn’t what I’m suggesting. I do think that people, men and women and every other gender, should keep inappropriate conversation like that outside the workplace…or, if that’s too much to ask, at least held at bay other people are around who might not be comfortable with it. By all means, those two managers could have had their nasty little chat in their own company and no one would have been the wiser.

        • 0 avatar
          rpn453

          “I do think that people, men and women and every other gender, should keep inappropriate conversation like that outside the workplace…or, if that’s too much to ask, at least held at bay other people are around who might not be comfortable with it.”

          That would be the logical choice if they wanted the greatest number of people to like them. But they don’t care about people who disagree. Those people are wrong anyway, and completely unrelatable. So all the better if these situations marginalize them.

          I think people need to find some common ground before they can effectively nudge one another in any direction.

      • 0 avatar
        FreedMike

        “In reality, the only way to sexually bond is a sensitive, dangerous and aggressive gamble play…by both genders.”

        You’re right, but that assumes someone is going to work to sexually bond. Not everyone is. And if someone’s not using the workplace like their own personal Tinder account, she (or he) should be able to refuse romantic advances, and have the office call the offender professionally on it if the advances don’t stop.

        I just don’t see anything wrong with doing that.

        Will some people abuse the system? Certainly. But that means you fix the system, not abandon it because a few losers abuse it.

      • 0 avatar
        George B

        TrailerTrash, some men and women seem to lack any self-awareness of where they stand in the mating game. You simply can’t approach people way out of your league and attempting to ask a coworker out on a date is always dangerous. Men who want to date the most attractive women have to work really hard to raise their own desirability to make the feeling mutual.

        • 0 avatar
          TrailerTrash

          What said is difficult to understand.
          First, men and women often, if not the majority of time, seek different reason in mates.
          Men are sexually attractive to different stimuli.
          For instance, and I’m gonna be bold here, but the highway of life is chock full of beautiful women with what I would call not , um, handsome but powerful and rich beautiful women.
          So there goes the in your league and naive love story.
          People selling themselves for security, position and power.

          Nest, the reasoning that love has no bounds…but yet you cannot fall in love at work is maddeningly illogical.

          What is “your league?” Do you not believe those Disney tales?

          • 0 avatar
            FreedMike

            OK, TT, you’re correct when you say men and women might be receptive to different “stimuli,” but in the end, people have the right to choose who they want to be receptive to. If a beautiful woman wants to go out with an ugly rich guy because he has money, then that’s her choice.

            But no woman should be subjected to advances from someone she is not interested in, no matter how rich, good looking or powerful the suitor is. If she isn’t interested, then it’s over. Ditto for men. Period.

      • 0 avatar
        Lou_BC

        @TrailerTrash – rationalizing behavior based upon primitive reflexive survival mechanisms doesn’t cut it any more. It is necessary to understand those traits because we need to understand them and control them to function as “modern” social beings, we need to rise above.

        Case in point, I doubt you or anyone else would like it if an alpha male or a pack grabbed your partner and engaged in sexual activity with them. According to your comment, it would be totally appropriate based upon your comments.

  • avatar
    eggsalad

    Not at all related, but if you have a son, will you please name him Austin or Jensen?

  • avatar
    Hummer

    I saw the Title and gave you the benefit of the doubt, but I see now you are trying your best to make it known you are full on SJW.

    If you see something that is truly harassment go kick their *ss, otherwise don’t whine about a systematic failure of the social structure because you heard second hand allegations.

    It’s 2017 we should be focused on colonizing other planets or racing hovercrafts not playing for attention.

    I don’t even get the article picture, is that somehow related that an apparent coworker would put their hand on another’s shoulder? I’ve made a lot of advancements on men if that’s the case, I guess I should tell my wife I swing both way according to the car site I visited today.

    • 0 avatar
      Adam Tonge

      You can make your point without insulting Tim.

      • 0 avatar
        Hummer

        My apologies, believe me I edited down what I was going to say quite a bit.

        • 0 avatar
          JimZ

          That just proves what kind of person you are.

          TIL saying “hey, maybe we shouldn’t treat women like s#!t” makes someone an “SJW.”

          • 0 avatar
            Hummer

            Proves what kind of person I am? Huh? If some POS tried to make unwanted advancements on a women I’m going to confront them face to face, not go online and complain about some failed complex.

          • 0 avatar
            FreedMike

            And that makes talking about sexual harassment online wrong…because…?

          • 0 avatar
            Hummer

            It’s no different than the long disproven “rape culture” on college campuses where the media pretended rape was an epidemic only to later reveal people were reporting rapes if they were looked at the wrong way.

            Talking about the ills of sexual harassment is important, everyone should be treated equal. But advancing a foolish stereotype or agenda because of “muh feels” that isn’t based on reality is wrong.

          • 0 avatar
            FreedMike

            No rape culture?

            My a** there isn’t one. The courts are part of it.

            http://www.denverpost.com/2017/08/15/austin-wilkerson-rape-early-release/

            This kind of garbage goes on all the time. And we wonder why women get outraged about mistreatment and don’t believe they’re really equals? It’s because a) lots of them ARE abused, and even raped, and b) if they do get raped, the guy who does it may just walk without ever having done a day of jail time.

            But I forgot…they just make it up. They’re being overly sensitive. Maybe it’s their time of the month.

          • 0 avatar
            Hummer

            Yea sure, and Bigfoot lives in the Appalachian mountains. How long ago has been since you were in college? Waking up with a new guy in your bed and calling it rape because you now decide you didn’t want it does not count.

          • 0 avatar
            FreedMike

            You know, TTAC, why isn’t there an ignore button for jerks like this?

          • 0 avatar
            Hummer

            Oh sweet Jesus, grow up.

    • 0 avatar
      Yay_Cars

      Take your own advice.

    • 0 avatar
      Maymar

      You know, maybe other people (male or female) just don’t want to be touched in general? Infringing on other another person’s space without their consent is sort of harassment.

      • 0 avatar
        Hummer

        Good luck if you ever choose to leave the first world, you’ll have quite a meltdown.

        • 0 avatar
          Maymar

          I’m on the spectrum, and you’re damn right there are places outside of the first world I won’t visit because I know I’d have a meltdown, so I don’t go there.

          But if I tell someone at work I don’t want to be touched, I don’t have to worry about someone telling me I’m a stuck-up b**ch, there’s no risk of it harming my career, and the consensus seems to be women don’t have that privilege. Considering you’re getting defensive here over a simple matter, how would you respond if someone confronted you on that in real life? Would you be deserving of the beatdown you seem to think is the answer for other cases? Would you protest, or make it uncomfortable?

          • 0 avatar
            Hummer

            Huh? Your making the claim that I support going against someone’s will? I argued against that vey thing. You’ve repeated my sentiment here.

    • 0 avatar
      ClutchCarGo

      If you don’t get why the picture is appropriate to the subject, perhaps you ought to ask some of those male colleagues that you’re touching how they feel about it, since you clearly can’t recognize that the woman is not comfortable with being touched that way. That sort of touching that isn’t grounded in a personal relationship of equals is just the sort of thing that leaves some women feeling uneasy about what’s going to come next.

      • 0 avatar
        Hummer

        Frankly I don’t act in any way that isn’t reciprocal. What do you do when someone tries to go around you and touches the small of your back? Scream harassment? Get real you move forward out of the way and get on with your conversation without a second thought. This equally applies to going to a music festival, go to Bonaroo and try to walk through a crowd without having hands all over you, they aren’t trying to harass you.

        • 0 avatar
          ClutchCarGo

          My job frequently has me sharing a computer screen with others, male and female, junior and senior, in order to do development and training. We will be in close proximity, and sometimes our lower limbs or forearms might even touch briefly, and I’ve never felt it necessary to raise a complaint. However, I would NEVER put my arm around the other person, and I would be very uncomfortable if the other person put his/her arm around me as shown in the picture.

          Both of your other examples have nothing to do with a workplace. No one is calling out unwanted touch in crowds as sexism.

        • 0 avatar
          Frank Galvin

          Hummer:

          Here’s the thing – touching someone on the back in a hallway is not sexual harassment. Its incidental contact. Make a habit of it, or let the hand wander or stay – that is something else. There is never an excuse to grope – whether at work or at festival.

          Good that you feel strong enough to confront someone in the face when they’re harassing someone else. Congrats. You’ve now made the situation worse. You’ve introduced a level of fear into the victim who now has a fear of retaliation and have taken away her ability to address the matter on her terms. Do you know her background? Do you know his? You’ve made a unilateral decision that just blew the situation up. Not everyone has the ability to speak up, and the law does not put the burden on them to. You report that concern or observation to those that can address it.

          Ever seen a 50 year old tradesman paralyzed by fear or by hearing of abuse because of what Coach / Troop Leader / Step Dad / Priest did? Its a giant f’d up situation in a gray zone. Let the experts deal with it.

          • 0 avatar
            FreedMike

            Exactly, Frank.

            Women don’t need us men “sticking up for them,” as much as it might be instinctive for us to do so. They need to expect that their employer will stick up for them.

          • 0 avatar
            Hummer

            Why would the victim fear retaliation, the perp would be the one in fear. The expert in this situation is the one that ends the problem. Telling the perp he needs counseling to continue working in the environment with the victim is much more likely to lead to retaliation against the victim. Not to mention your leaving the victim in an exceedingly tense situation. If the perp is fired I would say the risk of retaliation would be even higher, only not in the confines of the business.

            Human instinct has been formed through millions of years of evolution, it doesn’t suddenly become incorrect because certain group of morally superior peoples decides against it.

          • 0 avatar
            FreedMike

            Whatever you do, don’t listen to the guy who’s an expert on the topic…

    • 0 avatar
      28-Cars-Later

      Fire up the DeLorean and stop the events of 11.22.63 and you’ll have those things.

      While you’re there put two in the back of traitorous Johnson’s head for good measure. Thanks!

    • 0 avatar
      CombiCoupe99

      You are absolutely correct. More people need to push back on this strange effort to signal their “virtue.”

  • avatar
    I_like_stuff

    How youuuu doin’?

  • avatar
    JMII

    Hey at least his eyes are on the computer screen and not down her blouse.

  • avatar
    I_like_stuff

    It’s horrible how the auto industry operates. They should look to our superiors in Hollywood for guidance on how to properly treat women.

  • avatar
    Lou_BC

    As per usual, the lines form on the left and on the right.

  • avatar
    Lou_BC

    “If you’re wondering why I didn’t stick up for others, well, in some cases I heard about an incident well after it happened – and I wasn’t present for the incident. In other cases, I was too young, too junior in title, and too nice to tell a veteran co-worker twice my age that what they were saying was inappropriate.”

    @Tim Healey – don’t sell yourself short. There are multiple reasons why “we” look the other way in regard to this kind of behaviour. People do not tend to act until a critical mass or point is reached and often it takes a few voices to lead, then a chorus starts and eventually the whole congregation joins in.

    (And as per usual, there will be the grumpy old men in the back pining away for the ‘good ol’ days”.)

    • 0 avatar
      BuzzDog

      Thank you, Lou.

      Perhaps this makes me one of those “social justice warriors,” but I find the numbers in such studies to be useful. As you said, “People do not tend to act until a critical point or mass is reached.” That, and it still boggles my mind to see how many recipients of blatantly inappropriate work behavior are unaware where the boundaries are.

      Case in point: I have a respected “frienemy” at the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC), who I’m often across the table from, and in a defensive position. She recently shared a story of a 16-year-old girl who landed a rare part-time job in her tiny town, working for a franchised restaurant. The teen soon quit, because her 26-year old manager regularly stood up against her at the prep station, and fondled her breasts. The teen – and this is significant – told her father why she quit. After no satisfaction from the franchise owner (the girl’s father simply wanted the manager investigated), the girl and her father went to the EEOC. My point here? The EEOC investigation revealed that this manager had engaged in the same behavior with no less than four other teens, stretching back to his two previous employers. But the recipients of his actions were all 16 to 18 years old at the time, and didn’t complain to anyone, even their parents – they all either thought no one would believe them, it was a normal occurrence, or it wasn’t possible to complain about “the boss.” And here’s the kicker: All but one’s account was readily supported by eyewitnesses. So others saw the behavior, reported it in lurid detail, yet didn’t act. Some said it had gone on for years in the restaurant, and they were very uncomfortable, but didn’t know it was illegal, and that they were protected from retaliation if they reported it.

      So yeah, probably a waste of time and an affront to traditional sensibilities to study and report the frequency of occurrence of inappropriate behavior. (/sarcasm off)

  • avatar
    westside auto

    From the pic, I thought he was just attempting to smooth out her wrinkled blouse. (sarc)

  • avatar
    OneAlpha

    How convenient that “unconscious biases” can’t be objectively measured, that a woman’s interpretation of a given social situation is to be taken at face value and that the standard for involving The State in a company’s business practices is “…I just don’t feel safe.”

    Society really would be better off recognizing that the actual predators in these situations aren’t supposedly-sexist men, but rather feminism-poisoned women spoiling for a fight because they’ve been told – practically since day one – that they’re “oppressed by the patriarchy.”

    Just more proof that feminism isn’t about fostering equality, but rather creating totally-unnecessary social chaos, discord and conflict.

    • 0 avatar
      JimZ

      So your position is that men should be able to tell women how they should think and feel?

      I get it, some of you desperately wish it was still 1955. But it ain’t.

      • 0 avatar
        28-Cars-Later

        1955 – Beginning ascent as an global empire, growing middle class, partially gold backed money, a victorious general is your president.

        2017 – Empire in clear decline on path to dismemberment, shrinking middle class, money backed by oil in theory which doesn’t benefit holders at all, a reality show host is your president who was slightly less corrupt than the worst presidential candidate and likely one of the worst Americans of all time (and I dare fools to argue otherwise).

        Which is better again? You make the call.

        • 0 avatar
          Lou_BC

          @28-Cars-Later – does the fact that the rest of the developed world was blown to sh!t post 2 world wars factor into why the USA did so well post 1940’s?

          That is a huge factor.

          The USA politically and industrially has never given two sh!ts about the middle or lower classes other than for wealth creation and cannon fodder.

          • 0 avatar
            28-Cars-Later

            Agree Lou, but that wasn’t my point. Everything exists in a certain time and space which can never be fully duplicated. However some who don’t think automatically disparage everything about a period without stopping to think about what actually happened in the period (reasoning notwithstanding). Personally, I would rather live in the ascent of an empire as opposed to its gradual decline and eventual fall.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            @28-Cars-Later – thanks for clarifying.

            I do agree that we may may witnessed the transition to the winter of the US empire.

            Instead of Nero fiddling as Rome burns, we have a “reality star” at the helm who cannot discern reality.

          • 0 avatar
            28-Cars-Later

            I’m glad we agree. In my view Nero’s been fiddling since sometime between 1994 and 2001 (NAFTA/GATT and Dot Com crash/the events of September). I still believe we never actually recovered from Dot Com. If you’re in the mood for a deeper dive, I think you would Catherine Austin Fitt’s lectures on the subject.

        • 0 avatar
          JimZ

          The thing that made the rise of that empire possible was WWII and you know it. Without the war we would never have been who we were.

          So yeah, it’s all well and good if you want to live in the ascent of an empire, but if that ascent requires massive death and destruction on a world-wide scale and continuing to treat large segments of our own society as second class citizens (or even sub-human) then, well, you’re a terrible person. “F you I’ve got mine” is not the way to run a society.

          And even then the ’50s weren’t all roses. We were already entering the first post-war recession, the auto industry was already starting to see car companies fail, we were already throwing bodies into fruitless proxy wars against the Soviets, etc. Leave it to Beaver is not a documentary.

          • 0 avatar
            28-Cars-Later

            True, but again that wasn’t my point. My preference is the constitutional republic the Framers intended, as all empires rise and fall. However if I must live in an empire, my preference is during ascent rather than decline and fall. Playing God as to the circumstances does not interest me. Man seeks to conquer and enslave man, and as always there is a small cadre of winners and a large pool of losers. Those in the capstone have you convinced you/we are somehow bad or wrong for X thoughtcrimes when in reality everything ***they*** do is against your best interests. ***They*** would and do kill/rape/plunder/lie/cheat/steal from anyone and everyone to suit their objective and do so daily through subterfuge. Look at the sh**storm they created just in the twentieth century. In reality what matters? Who got paid and who got dead. Wake up from their lies.

            All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others <—— YOU ARE HERE.

          • 0 avatar
            TrailerTrash

            jimz
            please…

            “but if that ascent requires massive death and destruction on a world-wide scale”

            are you so ignorant of the war and what caused and why we were in it?

            are you so naive as to not know about the true nature of life and the aggressiveness and total unfairness of it all?

            And do you have to really pretend you are not one of the keep you hands off of my pile?
            Or are you actually practicing your mother theresa lifestyle and don’t have a bank account or try to accumulate wealth??

        • 0 avatar
          Yay_Cars

          Spotted the False Cause fallacy.

        • 0 avatar
          dal20402

          1955 – Hegemony over the smoking ruins of World War II, a growing *white* middle class that partly got that way by outright theft of wealth from other communities (especially in real estate via blockbusting), monetary policy determined by whether miners in South Africa were having a good day, a horrendous and rapidly worsening lead and particulate pollution problem, and zero opportunity for women to choose what they wanted to do with their lives.

          2017 – Significant although incomplete progress toward real equality of opportunity for women and people in ethnic or racial minorities, data-driven and very successful (no significant inflation in 35 years) monetary policy, pollution issues under better control, and a world where global poverty has shrunk every year for the last two decades.

          I know which year I’d rather live in, even if the president is the worst in the history of the republic. He’ll be booted out in three years.

          • 0 avatar
            28-Cars-Later

            I love you man but outside of pollution I’m really shaking my head at “progress”.

            Million dollar shacks (actual ones, not hyperbole) on the West Coast are proof of Nixon’s folly and how inflation is much worse than anyone will admit 1980 to now. Go onto St Louis Fed’s public data and look at the global M2 supply from 1980 to whatever year is there (2014 maybe?). The amount of money worldwide they admit which has been created increased by a factor of 8.4ish in the period. If all of those dollars came home at once, this is the minimum factor of inflation you would see vs 1980 (in reality there would be an asset price spike to dwarf the current asset bubble but that’s not my point).

            We are Rome in the late 300s (after the 330 Constantine split) or early 400s.

          • 0 avatar
            ajla

            “no significant inflation in 35 years”

            As long as you don’t want to live indoors, go to college, or have health insurance things are fine.

          • 0 avatar
            28-Cars-Later

            In Kali you could just live on the beach, right?

          • 0 avatar
            dal20402

            I live the West Coast housing market. I own a mostly unrenovated, 64-year-old, one-story house on 7000 sq ft of land valued at around $850,000. It’s not an issue of capital sloshing around, it’s an issue of communities that have built housing corresponding with a small fraction of the population increase for several decades. That results in more people (and therefore more income) per unit, and in forcing out the poorest residents. This is starting to happen in other places in the country as well. But where there is enough housing, prices are stable.

            The only places where capital is really distorting the housing market (as shown by the combination of high prices and low occupancy rates) are London, the two biggest Canadian cities, Moscow, and small parts of New York.

            Looking at total US money supply as a measure of inflation is highly misleading, unless you also take into account all of increased population, productivity, trade, and derisking. Better to look at actual prices. Housing, energy, health care, and education have risen, the latter sharply (which is responsible for a lot of current problems). Most other prices have actually fallen in real terms.

        • 0 avatar
          FreedMike

          1955 – Kids lived in “Iron Lungs” due to polio. Cancer, heart disease, and many other illnesses were death sentences. The mentally ill were being lobotomized. Tobacco companies were happily advertising that cigarettes weren’t harmful. Average life expectancy was 67 years. Black folks were not able to vote or own property in large portions of the country. The government was having soldiers run *towards* nuclear mushroom clouds. A ten minute call from New York to Los Angeles cost $70. A one way flight from Chicago to Phoenix cost $1168.

          And on and on.

          • 0 avatar
            JimZ

            but 28-Cars-Later thinks that was “better.”

          • 0 avatar
            FreedMike

            In some ways, maybe it was. Things were certainly *simpler*…as long as you were one of the people who had full citizenship rights.

            And 28’s right – economically this country had no peers 60 years ago. And you’re right about how that came to be.

            Progress brings complication, but it’s preferable to regression.

        • 0 avatar
          psarhjinian

          “Beginning ascent as an global empire, growing middle class, partially gold backed money, a victorious general is your president”

          So, can we have “strong unions” and “a 90% marginal tax rate” too?

          Somehow, when people say they want 1955 back, they usually just mean “we want to be racist” and not “we want fair tax and more organized labour”

          • 0 avatar
            FreedMike

            True, but I’d say the ’50s were also time of pretty easy affluence that people miss.

            But anyone who knows history knows that party was never meant to last. It was easy for millions of people to make a middle class wage screwing bolts on a car when this country was basically the only place in the world screwing bolts on cars in any kind of volume.

            The minute that the rest of the developed world recovered from World War II, the party was over.

            Our mistake was proceeding as if the party would never end.

            Today, a good middle class income is entirely possible. You just need more education and hustle to get it.

          • 0 avatar
            psarhjinian

            “Our mistake was proceeding as if the party would never end.”

            This is true, but where we’re making the mistake, collectively, is letting a couple of well-off guys drain the keg, thus ending it for everyone.

            It’s reasonable that the post-war boom isn’t sustainable, but breaking the social contract so that one-percenters can keep making ten percent per year wasn’t necessary. I mean, we saw this movie before, in 1929.

          • 0 avatar
            FreedMike

            You’re right, psarhjinian, but you’re preaching to the choir. Unfortunately, at some point wealth stopped becoming something to aspire to, and became something to almost worship without question. It’s no accident that the one-percenters get away with hogging a hugely disproportionate percentage of our wealth…in a very real sense, they’re just getting their god-given vig.

            No better example of this exists than the current president. How does he get away with being an absolutely miserable example of a human being? Simple: he’s rich. Rich folks always get away with that. Why? Because they’ve convinced us that it’s OK for them to live on a higher plane than ours.

            Until *that* nonsense stops, we can talk about income inequality until we’re panting for breath, and no one will listen.

    • 0 avatar
      SCE to AUX

      The 1994 film Disclosure is an interesting perspective of your point:

      http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0109635/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1

    • 0 avatar
      dougjp

      The actual predators could be either. Or both at the same time. Depends on the situation.

      I have to agree there’s nothing about feminism that has to do with equality. Its about winning, oppressing men, supposed revenge sometimes for no concrete reason and sometimes for good reason, doing something in public with like minded people (crowd psychology) etc. etc.

    • 0 avatar
      FreedMike

      …and kudos to One Alpha for confirming why this crap still goes on. You made Tim’s point for him.

      Well done, sir.

    • 0 avatar
      golden2husky

      rather creating totally-unnecessary social chaos, discord and conflict

      For a minute there, I thought you were talking about your (not mine) president

    • 0 avatar
      Frank Galvin

      That’s not how it works, and that line of thinking shifts the focus away from following good practices and processes that addresses complaints.

      Employers must have two duties: investigate when they have notice of possible civil rights violations and to make sure that an internal complaint process does not chill participation or reporting.

      “I just don’t feel safe” doesn’t cut it. Subjectively, anyone is going to complain about anything. Objectively, that complaint gets nowhere. The burden is pretty high to show actual harassment, favoritism, and discrimination.

  • avatar
    slavuta

    What’s wrong with having fun with your secretary? Another deal – feminism. That thing is worse than communism

    • 0 avatar
      JimZ

      Always amusing (and a bit sad) to listen to men complain about what they think feminism is.

      • 0 avatar
        28-Cars-Later

        A horrible construct designed to cripple society, create additional tax revenue, and remove parental influence from children while they are indoctrinated at the l0ca1 publik sk0ol.

        • 0 avatar
          FreedMike

          28, you might feel differently if you had two daughters…as I do.

          • 0 avatar
            JimZ

            I bet if you actually challenged him to describe how feminism has negatively impacted his life, he wouldn’t be able to do so. he’d just regurgitate a bunch of talking points he got from InfoWars, Breitbart and Fox News.

            ‘cos it seems the vast majority of these Internet Woman Haters are obese neckbearded slobs who don’t realize the reason they can’t get a date is because of their own odious personalities and slovenly appearances.

          • 0 avatar
            FreedMike

            I’m a staunch supporter of women’s equality – hell, even marched for it back in January – but as someone who’s gone through a divorce with kids, I can tell you that there’s no better example of feminism gone amok than the family court “system.” Where I live, if you walk into court with two chromosomes called “X” and “Y”, you’re f*cked. God forbid you’re divorcing someone who knows how to work that system, or even worse, the family services system (my ex had a masters’ in social work). She had them believing I was the second coming of Ike Turner, at least for a while. It cost me a small fortune and two years of absolute hell to get me and my kids away from that b*tch. Some men don’t even try – they just give up.

            That kind of injustice happens because of the whole “always believe the woman in cases of abuse” thing, which was a direct result of the womens’ rights movement.

            But that means you fix the system, versus kicking the idea of womens’ rights to the curb.

            And you don’t regress to the days when women were not legally equal just because complications like the ones Tim’s talking about happen. You confront the problem and fix it.

          • 0 avatar
            Hummer

            “they can’t get a date is because of their own odious personalities and slovenly appearances.”

            Sounds like all feminists.

          • 0 avatar
            FreedMike

            Again, TTAC…

            Ignore button. Please.

          • 0 avatar
            slavuta

            Now I know why you’re “freed” Mike

          • 0 avatar
            FreedMike

            What, I’m wrong for wanting to not waste my time listening to people who aren’t worth listening to?

      • 0 avatar
        pdog_phatpat

        “cos it seems the vast majority of these Internet Woman Haters are obese neckbearded slobs who don’t realize the reason they can’t get a date is because of their own odious personalities and slovenly appearances”

        Generalizations are fun. Heres one for you. You’re obviously bitchmade. Was Daddy your Mommy?

      • 0 avatar

        ” Always amusing (and a bit sad) to listen to men complain about what they think feminism is.”

        Any sadder than having to listen to feminists complain about what they think men are?

        I have this strange idea. I think that if you try and separate out human beings into groups by *any* criteria, sex, religion, nationality, profession, etc. you’re still going to end up with human beings who act like human beings. Some of them will be saints, some of them will be evil, and in the middle are people who do both good and evil.

        Woman have equal capacities for evil as men do.

        Nowadays we’re expected to believe that there are no differences between men and women, except when women can be portrayed as superior.

        • 0 avatar
          JimZ

          “Nowadays we’re expected to believe that there are no differences between men and women, except when women can be portrayed as superior.”

          no we aren’t, you a$$hole. you’ve gladly been force-fed the Limbaugh “feminazi” narrative.

          it’s not and never has been about claiming there are no differences between men and women. it’s about not pigeonholing women into certain roles or presuming they can’t do certain jobs.

          • 0 avatar
            Hummer

            Do you think it improves your argument to use the same list of “hot” words over and over? Limbaugh, faux news, breitbart, infowars, its like your still stuck in 2006. Get with the times old man, crowd sourced videos, audio, and emails from original sources have irrefutable levels of proof that your precious MSM is constantly found to be lying about.

          • 0 avatar

            Breaking my rule that I shouldn’t be civil to those who are uncivil, actually I’m not a regular listener to Rush Limbaugh and never have been, though politics aside one has to admit the man is a master of his medium. It’s hard to do an hour of live radio and keep your listeners engaged and he does it for 15 hours every week.

            My life doesn’t revolve around politics.
            I’m as likely to listen to sports radio as I am to political talk on radio (though it’s getting hard to tell the difference what with virtue signalling sports journalists).

            I also don’t watch Fox News as I don’t get cable. I used to read Breitbart.com when Andrew, may he rest in peace, was still alive, but I’m not thrilled with what Joel Pollack and Steve Bannon did with the site.

            As for the particular nit that you picked, I got the notion that one can only say that man and women are different if it can be framed in terms of female superiority from Ann Althouse, a now retired law professor in Wisconsin, who identifies as a feminist.

            http://althouse.blogspot.com/2005/11/scientists-remember-to-portray.html

        • 0 avatar
          FreedMike

          “Any sadder than having to listen to feminists complain about what they think men are?”

          But listening to this kind of silly generalization about feminists isn’t sad. Right?

      • 0 avatar
        slavuta

        Let me tell you example. I took my son to soccer tryouts. The coach is a small woman. She pulled huge bags of equipment and started carrying 200 yards to the field. I said, “Let me help you”. She barked at me as if just offered here sexytimes. In normal countries, men drive, open door, carry things, etc. In America many women are like men. Do you wonder mail order brides so popular? Who wants these Americanas?

    • 0 avatar
      Lou_BC

      @slavuta – Who says the lady in the lead photo is the secretary?

    • 0 avatar
      Frank Galvin

      Was it feminism? Or maybe that decent human beings came to the conclusion that the terms and conditions of being paid to do admin work didn’t include having the boss plow his entry level employee with booze and demand oral. But that’s just me.

  • avatar
    Car Guy

    “Transphobia” – there will never be anything normal about 1) a mentally ill man who pays a doctor to mulitlate his genitals 2) then pretends to be women and wear dresses and 3) co workers then expected to pretend it’s perfectly normal like nothing happened. No, the abnormal are the ones who accept this crap.

    • 0 avatar
      el scotto

      Hate to burst your bubble; but it’s the law. Trust me; you most hated federal agencies probably has a GLBT council/group.

    • 0 avatar
      FreedMike

      Here’s the thing about sexuality: no matter what turns you on, someone will call it ‘abnormal.’ Count on it.

      Accepting other peoples’ ‘abnormalities’ as their business means no one ever gets to look down his or her nose on yours.

      • 0 avatar
        Car Guy

        “Here’s the thing about sexuality: no matter what turns you on, someone will call it ‘abnormal.’ Count on it.”

        I completely agree. Yet, most sane, rational people don’t parade their particular fetishes in public and then demand every else call it normal and be forced to accept it.

        • 0 avatar
          FreedMike

          I see. So…someone who is trans is “parading” it around in public every day.

          How does that play out? It plays out in someone wearing men’s or women’s clothing.

          And last I checked, that activity is engaged in by gee…I dunno…99.9% of men and women who aren’t trans.

          I think you should get over yourself.

          • 0 avatar
            Car Guy

            You are obviously slow. Let me try again. A MAN wearing a WOMEN’S DRESS in PUBLIC is PARADING their PERVERSION. That isn’t 99.9% of people. It’s less than 1% of people who are mentally ill and I won’t be bullied into accepting that as normal behavior.

          • 0 avatar
            FreedMike

            Ah…so nowadays, telling someone to get over themselves is bullying.

        • 0 avatar
          el scotto

          Uh NO, it’s the law. There are transgender people where I work; one guy has a huge, even bigly-sized; gay pride flag hanging from his cubicle. Yeah, ya gotta be civil at work. That’s acceptance. Where’s April when we need her?

    • 0 avatar

      Are you familiar with TERFs? It stands for Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminists. It’s one of those circular firing squads on the left where some feminists who haven’t completely bought in to the latest iteration of intersectionalism think that if you weren’t born with the uterus/vagina/vulva platform, you can’t possibly know what it’s like to be a woman. It’s not just radical feminists. My younger daughter, who I’d describe as a left leaning political moderate who is pro-choice and voted for Hillary Clinton, is being pushed to the right by her friends and acquaintances who call her transphobic for holding the above opinion.

      I’m a bit confused. I just read that if two Female to Male transgender people that haven’t yet had “bottom surgery” have sexual relations, I’m supposed to say that it’s really gay male sex.

      • 0 avatar
        JimZ

        “Are you familiar with TERFs? It stands for Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminists. ”

        no, this is the first I’ve heard of it. so I can safely assume it’s something you learned about via your hard-right-wing AM radio/Infowars echo chamber.

        “feminists who haven’t completely bought in to the latest iteration of intersectionalism think that if you weren’t born with the uterus/vagina/vulva platform, you can’t possibly know what it’s like to be a woman”

        so, they’re saying “if you’re not a woman, you can’t know what it’s like to be a woman” and you’re stupid enough to *disagree* with that?

        “I’m a bit confused. I just read that if two Female to Male transgender people that haven’t yet had “bottom surgery” have sexual relations, I’m supposed to say that it’s really gay male sex.”

        wow. we don’t really need to know what you like to read.

        • 0 avatar
          Lou_BC

          “Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminism, or TERF, is a loosely-organized collective with a message of hate and exclusion against transgender women in particular, and transgender people as a whole. They have attached themselves to radical feminism as a means to attempt to deny trans women basic access to health care, women’s groups, restroom facilities, and anywhere that may be considered women’s space.”

          So how is that any different from macho men banding together and attacking gays, lesbians and transgendered men?

          Discrimination isn’t better or worse if it happens to be perpetrated by a group you don’t like.

      • 0 avatar
        dal20402

        As a card-carrying member of The Left (albeit one who often gets in trouble for insufficient purity) I can tell you that TERFs are the most fringey of fringe groups. 99% of The Left are accepting of trans folks, and the gender identities they claim, and think TERFs are somewhere on a continuum running from misguided to outright bigoted.

        • 0 avatar
          golden2husky

          I’m pretty damn left and I never have heard of TERFs. After reading all of these comments I leave with the thought that we all collectively would be better off it we stepped back a bit and weren’t so judgemental about those around us.

          I had the luck of being brought up on charges at work for mentioning that we need to “break out the Ridgid snake”…I’m in facilities and we had a major line blockage. I was told that my comment was loaded with “sexual innuendo”. Call me crazy but Ridgid is the manufacture of the equipment. The kicker? The charges were leveled on me by a GUY!

          dal – everybody is of “insufficient purity”

      • 0 avatar
        FreedMike

        So, if I understand Ronnie correctly…some feminists are weirdos, so feminism is bad, bad, bad.

        By this definition, some on the right (and the libertarian right) are flat out goose-steppers, so therefore, the right the libertarian right are bad, bad, bad.

        Pure intellectual laziness on your part, Ronnie. You should elevate your game.

  • avatar
    ajla

    Everyone is such a slave to debt and health insurance that no one can stand up to anyone with any authority over them.

  • avatar
    Dan

    It’s flirting.

    Until it happens to other, more attractive women.

    Then it’s sexual harassment.

    • 0 avatar
      Big Al from Oz

      Dan,
      So, a complete unattractive women made advances on you what would be your response? Attractiveness includes attitude and personality, not just the curves and hair colour.

      • 0 avatar
        FreedMike

        By Dan’s logic, Al, let’s say he’s married, and gets hit on by an insanely attractive co-worker. He finds her attractive but isn’t going to fool around with her, and tells her no. She keeps up with it.

        By his “logic,” this is not harassment, since the woman’s attractive.

        In other words…there’s no logic there at all.

      • 0 avatar
        Dan

        What do you think it would be? I’d tell her no, thank you, and go on with my life. Telling someone no is a long way from fighting a rapist off.

        • 0 avatar
          FreedMike

          If the person being hit on has said no to the advance, and it keeps on happening anyway, it’s harassment. Period. Whether the harasser is an unattractive man or Playmate of the Month has precisely zero to do with it.

    • 0 avatar
      FreedMike

      I don’t see how a woman’s attractiveness has anything to do with whether she should be harassed sexually at work.

    • 0 avatar
      Dan

      The women who view all flirting as unwanted sexual harassment aren’t the women being flirted with.

      Cat lady outrage at the slightest mention of sex isn’t solidarity with other women. It’s plain old jealousy that another woman is receiving that sexual attention and they aren’t.

    • 0 avatar
      TMA1

      I thought it was flirting if he’s handsome, charming, and wealthy, and harassment if he’s an overweight, neck-bearded basement dweller.

  • avatar
    el scotto

    Y’all are missing the forest for the trees. Any salesperson, or anyone in the dealerships food chain who is sexist, condescending, or just rude to a woman just lost a sale/future repair work. Yeah, being stupid will cost that dealership money. Yeah, we can all expect the four-squaring, plaid sport coating/golf shirt wearing salesmen to let a “babe”, “sugar”, or “honey” to slip out. She’ll walk. Old Girl was negotiating her lease for an Audi S6. Mind you, she has a PhD from in ivy league university and a masters in statistics from UNC. Our dimwitted salesperson looked at her and said; “leases are complex, I wouldn’t expect you to understand all the numbers”. She looked and me and I just gave her a nod. Old Girl’s fist words were: “Listen Motherf*ck*r”. Needless to say, the deal didn’t get done at that dealership.

    • 0 avatar
      rpn453

      Exactly. Over time, this sort of thing is self-regulating.

      • 0 avatar
        FreedMike

        Not really. If it were, this article would never have been written.

        • 0 avatar
          Lou_BC

          “Exactly. Over time, this sort of thing is self-regulating.”

          Really?

          How much damage gets done before the “correction” occurs?

          • 0 avatar
            FreedMike

            Silly Lou…don’t you know every sexual harasser gets rooted out by “the market”? There’s no need for intervention.

            Therefore, the damage done until “the market” corrects itself is irrelevant.

            Looking into my crystal ball, I see a news story: Trump haters in an office harass Trump supporters, and the company does nothing about it because “the market” will eventually weed out these losers. Limbaugh tweets his support. The date of the story? February 31, 2018…

          • 0 avatar
            rpn453

            You guys seem to think change should happen overnight. It takes generations. Personally, I think the western world has made a lot of progress in this regard in a relatively short period of time.

    • 0 avatar
      Big Al from Oz

      el scotto,
      I thought the article discusses a workplace? There are more than females customers, they are also employed within car dealers.

      And, I’d say you normal apathetic car salesman has enough nounce to know when not to be a slimbag.

  • avatar

    Remember ladies – Its not harassment unless you don’t find him attractive.

  • avatar
    PandaBear

    Is it just me who though that was a dude wearing the pink shirt?

  • avatar
    PrincipalDan

    Still my favorite definition of harassment is “Anything that if said or done to a man while he was in prison, would make him anxious.”

  • avatar

    The photo above reminded me of a sexual harassment complaint made against a former supervisor of mine when I worked at DuPont. I was deposed. He was the foreman of the shipping and receiving area. A woman claimed he was touchy feely. I never saw him act inappropriately with any employees but he was indeed a hands on supervisor. He’d put his arm around your shoulder as you walked. In the deposition I truthfully said that the only thing at all sexual that I witnessed while working in that department was when the woman who made the complaint would talk about her “big boobs”.

    Also while at DuPont I had a female coworker who would walk up to you and give you a neck rub. It wasn’t anything sexual, she was just a nice person (and her physique was the definition of Amazonian – made Linda Carter’s Wonder Woman look like Twiggy). This was in the 1990s and the male employees would talk about how if we did something like that we’d get fired.

  • avatar
    Big Al from Oz

    Discussing car dealers alone and in particular out the front where the wheelin and dealin occurs I can see the reasons why this occurs by males.

    First my view is to be a car salesman you must have some form of mental sickness or at the least possess psychological traits to be able to screw people out of money every day and knowingly put them into hock when you know they can’t afford it.

    So, with this mentality, or better still behavioural deficiency I can see how that type of mind is selfish and have a substandard level of emotional intelligence.

    • 0 avatar
      OneAlpha

      Exactly.

      The guys who succeed in sales have a combination of charm, gregariousness and moral flexibility that’s as natural to them as breathing.

      As an aside, it also explains why they think selling is the easiest thing in the world – to them, it is.

  • avatar
    Whittaker

    I certainly hope at least one poster was suspended for repeated personal attacks and vulgarity.

  • avatar
    Stumpaster

    Much indignation. Standing by for another edition of Pit Girls photo spread starring Alonso and Vettel, and I am sure the next big autoshow will have Will Ford presenting Toyota Tercel Pussywillows Edition and Bob Lutz rubbing his loins all over the new Maserati 4-Door Coupe.

  • avatar
    jimmyy

    I don’t care what anyone says. I am a healthy American white male that checks out every woman I see.

  • avatar
    Frank Galvin

    I’m an attorney and work in an HR capacity field for a large, diversified employer, prior to this gig I spent several years representing plaintiffs in civil rights / employment lawsuits. Politically, I’m hard right compared to most. So take the following under advisement.

    1) What some would consider the special snowflake complaint, “he looked at me” or “he touched my shoulder” are far outnumbered by real, actionable, and serious complaints involving really bad behaviors.

    2) People work in a silo, and its largely the unwritten rule that most would rather go along to get along and not say anything until such time as it becomes impossible to ignore, either by a co-worker or the target.

    3) Sexual harassment and sexual misconduct is grossly under-reported. Victims of SH & SM are more likely to have experienced prior abuse. They’re likely to not report based past events, self-medicate, and engage in other behaviors. When they do report or confide in a colleague, that interaction will be determinative of whether or not that person will choose to file a complaint.

    4) Serial harassers pick, groom, and isolate their targets a la Weinstein. They’re exploit the supervisor – supervisee dynamic over and over again. When something does come to light in the employment setting, typically the initiation of an investigation results in a resignation by the harasser, a signed settlement with the target, and mutually agreed upon confidentiality and non-disparagement stipulations.

    5) In many instances, even with the best employers, HR botches the initial report, particularly with its initial interaction with the accuser, who more than likely has been exposed to multiple traumatic experiences. The SOP is interrogating the accuser by lower level employees who lack the sophistication to conduct a proper interview.

    6) Superstars and producers are still protected to some degree. Once its ingrained in a culture, its tough to change.

    7) How do men affect change when they have the perception that their co-workers do not find the conduct offensive? First, ditch that assumption. Its likely at the very least they find it questionable and offensive. Drop a fricking dime, drop many dimes. Be aware that your employer’s anonymous tip line is not truly anonymous. IT can track IP addresses or determine whether the text or call came from a registered device. Take contemporaneous notes, document the behavior and report up or report out. Record the conversations or interactions. If the SOB needs to be fired – make sure a record exists and do a little CYA.

    7) Getting the information to a company attorney may also be advisable. Their ethical obligations are a heck of a lot different than the HR manager, and failing to uphold that obligation can result in a bar complaint. Lawyer police are a gigantic hassle.

    8) FFS – please show a degree of kindness and empathy when a co-worker comes to you with a concern. Listen – validate what he or she says, let them know the behavior is wrong, and its not their fault, and that you’re concerned. Offer to facilitate an introduction to EAP or to HR if advisable. That report may be the tipping point that will result in a strong action.

    9) Understand that a victim of serial harassment or worse is not going to be a perfect person. They’ve been traumatized, performance has suffered, existing disabilities may have been exacerbated, and they’re not doing so well. On the one hand, they feel betrayed. On the other, they’re going to blame themselves.

    10) Consult with your own attorney – get a consult, secure your recordings, docs, notes, etc. If it does go south and HR / bad management comes sniffing around and engages in retaliatory behavior – that material is your ticket to a very nice severance package.

    • 0 avatar
      PrincipalDan

      Thank you for rational thought from someone with experience in the field.

    • 0 avatar
      FreedMike

      +1 million to Frank.

      My girlfriend works in HR for a large hospital, and anyone who thinks harassment isn’t a problem is either uninformed or willfully ignorant.

      The only question is why someone might be willfully ignorant…and that answer is usually sexism. This thread is proof of that.

      This kind of behavior doesn’t just debase women (or the men who also have to deal with it) – it debases the entire organization.

      • 0 avatar
        Big Al from Oz

        FreedMike,
        I have found the most toxic environment to work in is an office. I have spent most of my career on the coal face in the field.

        If someone is busy and you interrupt or annoy them, they tell straight up “fnck off can’t you see I’m busy”. Do that in an office and its the end of the world to the person you tell to fnck off because you are busy.

        I do believe culture has a lot to do with the different behaviour. I do believe all should work in the field or in a position where they learn to manage constructive and blunt criticism.

        I really believe many should toughen the fnck up in many instances.

        Undue bullying and harassment I will not tolerate, but I also don’t tolerate a lack of openness and the ability to manage that openness.

        • 0 avatar
          Frank Galvin

          You should have seen the looks I got when I told a group of managers to ignore the occasional profane outburst so long as it was not sexual in nature. “Buh, Buh, Buh, thats BULLYING!” Actually, no it is not. We all have bad days. Deal with it. “Profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer” – Twain.

        • 0 avatar
          FreedMike

          Some truth to that, Al, but just because behavior is acceptable in one environment doesn’t mean it’s acceptable in all environments. Offices have to have some level of decorum in order to operate effectively.

    • 0 avatar
      Big Al from Oz

      Frank,
      Your advise is very good if we worked in an Utopian environment.

      As a manager and as a supervisor I have seen people who used what you described as a ticket to defend their actions that contributed to a certain position they found themselves in, generally harassment or bullying or as the team players state “the application of positive peer pressure”.

      What I’ve found is many who made complaints, with poor work performance actually were poor work performers and the team applied peer pressure to gain performance and value add to the team.

      This peer pressure is used to justify harassment and bullying claims. If someone is lazy and they are called out, then so be it. I allow my team members to apply peer pressure to gain performance from others.

      I found bosses who use the techniques you describe to also remove people from a team. What the managers/bosses do provide is good evidence, but it is does not present an accurate picture of events as most often the evidence is slated against the accused with many holes left open.

      I have spent months with individuals who are non performers who use the equity and diversity line to defend their positions. Weak management allows these non performers or team players to continue on and in many cases become promoted.

      All is not as it appears in most instances. As you stated to “victim” is not necessarily perfect, but sometimes they bring issue to themselves.

      • 0 avatar
        Frank Galvin

        Al,

        I’m under no illusions that the workplace will magically become a Utopian environment. Weak management practices will continue, jerks will be jerks, etc.

        And as far as the bullying claims – it is a rapidly moving, out of control nightmare. What I would stress is to remove bullying out of the equation and focus on sexual harassment. The truly nasty staff is largely hidden, which is why when someone’s radar does go up – I would hope that at the very least, the follow up is handled appropriately.

    • 0 avatar
      Peter Voyd

      Thank you for your excellent advice, with the prior disclosure of your leanings. I hope, though, I will never have to actually use any of it.

      Off – your handle made me look up “The Verdict”, which I watched as a child and understood precisely nothing – sounds like a great movie to see as a grownup.

    • 0 avatar
      golden2husky

      Well said, except you ruined your post with the snowflake snark.

  • avatar
    56BelAire

    Wow, this subject of this thread really triggered FreedMike……32 posts and counting. One can only imagine what the morning of November 9, 2016 must have been like for him.

    • 0 avatar
      30-mile fetch

      If the number of his comments rather than the filth he is responding to has your hackles up, it’s no wonder you weren’t troubled by the results of November 8th either.

  • avatar
    The Heisenberg Cartel

    Lol at posting this article on TTAC. This is the breitbart/infowars of car websites. All you’re doing is providing fodder for the unfunny-Archie-Bunkers, incels and bigots in the commentariat and you bloody well know it.

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  • Ronnie Schreiber