As California Fumes, Automakers Head to Washington to Talk Emissions

"We need to keep the pressure on to develop EV and hybrid tech" I'm all for that. I'm all about choice. EVs and Hybrids SHOULD be available for anyone who can afford them and wants to buy one. But they should not be tax-payer subsidized.

highdesertcat - name something that isn't tax payer subsidized or has not been manipulated by government in some shape or form?

@Lou_BC You, Lou_BC.

@highdesertcat Well, true, he's Canadian. But I'd say your "new tech is great as long as it's not tax-subsidized" argument is a bit ironic, given that you're making it with a personal computer and transmitting it over the Internet, and both technologies came to be via tax subsidization.

@highdesertcat - funny. Your answer indicates that you are well aware that there isn't anything to speak of that hasn't been touched by US government policy.

@highdesertcat FreedMike, I'm against taxpayer funded ventures because it eliminates any risk for those receiving the money. I'm against Big Oil being taxpayer subsidized. What in the Fvck does Big Oil need taxpayer funding for??? They've got a gazillion tax deductions to offset expenses and losses. Solyndra, anyone? There's a winner for ya'. If there is money to be made, the entrepreneurs will find the way to make it work. That said, I'm all for Venture Capitalists reaching out and touching someone with cash. Among the best is Lori Greiner. The Internet was derived from ARPA/DARPA, something we used while I was on active duty, way back when. Computers? My first one was a SWTechnical products Altair, then a Sinclair, then an Apple, and finally a Kaypro 10 MS-DOS. And it was MS-DOS after that, and later Windows and iPad Air's iOS10.3.1. None of them subsidized. Bill Gates wasn't taxpayer subsidized when he wrote MS-DOS and GWBasic. Once the taxpayers' money gets to DC, the politicians find all sorts of projects to waste that precious money on. Maybe Trump will be able to change things, at least for as long as he is in office.

@highdesertcat Lou_BC, would you give me a short list of places in the Vancouver, BC, area I really need to visit? I'm laying out my trip planner/calendar for my extended stay in Vancouver, BC, at my sister and brother in law's, starting end of June and lasting through the summer.

highdesertcat - I'm a long ways from Vancouver. How about East Hastings? Kidding. That is skid row area. Vancouver Aquarium, Stanley Park, Capilano Suspension Bridge, False Creek, Gas Town, Grouse Mountain, and Science world are a few things just off the top of my head. I prefer going out into the middle of no-where and not seeing another soul for a week. That sort of stuff drives my wife batty.

"by postponing the target the pressure to sell mass quantities would be off and they could sell what the market demands." Wakey wakey. The market is shaped by marketing. $500+ worth of marketing per "car". You think that on their own so many people would choose to waste their hard earned money on huge expensive wasteful clumsy goofy pickups? Or violent hidey-hole womb-mobiles? Nope, the marketing could just as easily condition people to spend that extra money on hybrids etc. Nothing mysterious or impossible about it. And in the bargain you get cheaper fuel, less reliance on unpleasant countries and more healthy air and environment.

@highdesertcat "Lou_BC, would you give me a short list of places in the Vancouver, BC, area I really need to visit?" If you like driving, the Vancouver- Whistler - Pemberton - Lilloet - Hope - Vancouver loop is a classic. Or take the lifts up Whistler Mt. Or hike somewhere. Or drive your suv up the High Falls Creek road from the Squamish Valley. There's so much non-urban stuff to do here it's not funny.

@highdesertcat brandloyalty - I'm not in the lower mainland enough to know much beyond the typical touristy stuff. I do agree that you can't go wrong with Sea to Sky, Duffy Lake road to Lillooet and then back down through the Fraser Canyon. You finish up that route by staying on the North side of the Fraser River on the Loughheed Highway.

@highdesertcat Vancouver and the lower mainland is a diverse place with lots to see. What sort of things interest you? Kind of pointless to suggest a botanical garden if you're allergic to flowers for instance.

@highdesertcat So Canadians are in no way subsidized by the giant US economy to the South and they don't save any money on defense thanks to NATO and having the US military right there should something happen?

@highdesertcat HDC, yes, entrepreneurs "will make it work." The only questions are: 1) when will they make it work, and 2) where will the entrepreneurs who make it work be located? If we want to MAGA, then we want them to make it work sooner, and we want them to make it work here. And it makes 110% sense to help them along. You can use direct investment or tax code in a variety of ways to do that. And if you want to look at this from a venture capitalist's perspective, OK. Let's say you have a billion dollars to invest in a startup producing some new technology. If that startup has been able to amortize its' costs through direct or indirect government incentives, it's a lot less likely to fail. Sounds like smart business to me. So...we can stand on "principle" and watch the Chinese provide direct and indirect government aid to develop all the new technology that makes their folks rich, or we can smart the hell up and do the same. Given the economic track record of the technologies invented with this model - including the personal computer and Internet I'm using to send this message to you, two technologies that have created Lord knows how many trillions of dollars in wealth for shareholders and workers in these industries - I know which option I choose. Whatever investment the taxpayer made in those technologies has been paid back, to put it mildly. For every Solyndra, I can show a Microsoft, or an Apple, (or a Tesla) that's been a good deal for taxpayers. (And, yes, Exxon should have NOT been getting tax credits at the same time they were reporting record profits, but that's just cronyism, and saying "no more government involvement in business 'cause Exxon" is cutting our nose off to spite our face.)

@highdesertcat Big Al From 'Murica: "So Canadians are in no way subsidized by the giant US economy to the South and they don’t save any money on defense thanks to NATO and having the US military right there should something happen?" Recall the Avro Arrow. A fighter far more advanced than anything the US had developed. Scrapped by pressure from the US in favor of the US Bomarc missile. So much for the Canadian fighter industry. Some time ago I worked at a car parts factory in Canada. AP Parts of Canada, a subsidiary of the US parent. The highest quality parts produced were shipped to the US market. During my short time there a whole new advanced production line was set up. When the bugs were worked out of it, the entire line was shipped to another AP Parts factory in the US. So much for our productivity. I mention this because it is extremely difficult to determine whether Canada is leeching off the US, or the opposite, or neither. In the absence of such a determination, your accusation about military spending is gratuitous negativity.

@HDC: "Computers? My first one was a SWTechnical products Altair, then a Sinclair, then an Apple, and finally a Kaypro 10 MS-DOS. And it was MS-DOS after that, and later Windows and iPad Air’s iOS10.3.1. None of them subsidized." The first modern microprocessors - the key tech used in personal computers - were developed almost 100% for defense and the space program. The granddaddy of the IBM PC was the flight control computer in the Apollo spacecraft. There's no getting around it - the Apple you started on depended on technology all directly or indirectly underwritten by the big bad gummint. Steve Jobs was a bright guy, but he wasn't bright enough to invent hundreds of millions of dollars to develop his own microprocessors with. Other companies did that, and Jobs built on the technology. And those other companies were able to do it quickly, and minimize the risk to their bottom lines, by direct or indirect underwriting by the evil socialist government. Would all this have happened anyway? Sure, but it'd have taken companies a LOT longer to do it without the big bad gummint directly underwriting a lot of their R&D via the space and defense programs, and giving tax credits to the companies that bought the first PCs. I'd say the taxpayers' money was wisely invested, wouldn't you?

@highdesertcat Thanks, all you guys for the lists you provided. I have copied them to my iPad notes App AND sent a combined extract to my sister at HER house in Kent-Desmoines. Looking forward to the extended trip. Been there before but only for a few days. This time we're going for the whole swine and staying for the summer, hopefully living high on the hog, hamming it up. I'm thinking about parking the Sequoia in Fallbrook, CA, at my grandson's and using the 1973 Southwind Motor Home that once belonged to my dad to travel up along CA coastal route and on to Olalla, WA to hook up with my sister and her Canadian husband. Then parking the Southwind on my sister's property in Olalla, and riding along in their motorhome to his residence in Vancouver, and beyond. He and his sister inherited a boat from their parents, so we'll spend some time on the water as well. I'll even go 50/50 on gas and expenses with them! We'll be doing lots of driving throughout the area and they have a Cabin in the wilderness about 90 miles from their home in Vancouver. Probably spend a couple of days there as well.

@highdesertcat FreedMike, I understand the benefits that we civilians often derive from research done by and for the government. That's what the ARPA and DARPA were all about. Some of that is still in use today, like in Cryptography and Signals Intelligence. I am against the funding of winners like Solyndra et al. Because they were bogus ventures from the git-go. How about A123? Or the bailout of GM and Chrysler. At least we don't own Chrysler any longer. However, without sounding political, the new guy in DC has said that he welcomes, and will promote, public sector involvement and funding for the things he has in mind. You know, I don't mind paying toll on a toll road, as long as it was not funded by the taxpayers. Taxpayers always take the loss! That precious taxpayer money is so often squandered by the politicians in the swamp. I'm impressed by this new guy Trump. He's done a lot in a very short time. The biggie was Justice Gorsuch. And look for another rightie Law&Order Justice to be appointed when the next vacancy occurs. Some say, very soon........ It's too bad that none of the EOs will last beyond his term(s) in office. I also like the fact we can use lead-ammunition on Federal lands again. 'cause that's all I have is lead. No frangibles.

@ highdesertcat Every MIL-SPEC semicondutor we produced in Silicon Valley / Alley / Gulch between 1974 & 1986 subsidized our sales of the civilian versions of the exact same products. The difference, post-production bake-freeze-shake and the price. The un-tested (un-used) product sold for less. Sometimes we got paid again to take them out to TTR or NAWS-CL and blow em up real good.

Salzigtal, the cost of MIL-SPEC products is what it is because of the extensive testing/shielding/protection requirements set forth in the contract. I do not consider that subsidizing since the economy of scale applies for semiconductors. Like in, the more you make, the more to choose from to test against the MIL-SPEC standard. The left overs can be sold for less-critical or less-stringent use. HP did a lot of that for the 2100 series of mini-computers used in the development of JSTARS electronics, even going as far as relabeling semi-conductors and processors with their own numbers to hide the true nature of the device. None of the HP numbers were listed in the Reference Book of Semiconductors. But they were standard chips tested to the required MIL-SPEC.

@highdesertcat We (multiple clients) used the same part numbers either prefixed or suffixed with M- or -M. And laughed during Free Beer Friday that Shinola-Head & Co. were paying 2-digit multiples of the price that Acme Electronics paid for the exact same product. With some extra ink.

"10 million illegal aliens" Have you ever seen those polluting old vehicles many of the illegals drive in CA? It's all they can afford, I know, but why aren't the CA cops enforcing the anti-pollution laws by taking those vehicles off the road? Get a Whitey behind the wheel of a car emitting blue or black smoke and the cops don't waste any time in pulling that person over and writing a citation! Yeah, it happened to my nephew in Palos Verdes, CA.

@highdesertcat Pollution is racist.

28-Cars-Later - there is a considerable amount of truth in that statement.

@Lou_BC Lol

@highdesertcat "Yeah, it happened to my nephew in Palos Verdes, CA." Not surprisingly it's a business like any other except if CA was a store, they'd be out of business. My alcoholic handyman in CA was pulled over by a CHP, drunk as hell, with 12 bench-warrants totaling over $100,000, and was simply tossed from the drunk-tank the next morning, but handed a court date, no bail necessary! Free on his on recognizance!!! They knew he wasn't going to show up for his court date and they don't care. I'm sure they ran his credit and it was clear he's a no account deadbeat/burnout. Yeah, what about public safety?? He was pulled over a year later, again drunk as hell (13 warrants), weaving of course, but instead the deputy pulled his Tahoe along side, yelled at him to get his stupid alcoholic A$$ off the road, to park his POS, then the deputy hit the gas and sped off!!! The handyman sat there for a few seconds, in total disbelief, then drove home taking side streets to his shack. But when driving around CA, I see beater cars with '11, '10, etc, expired tags all the time. Driving like A$$holes sometimes. Broken tail lights, burned out head lights no problem. But get this: CA state is completely looting ticket/DUI fines/revenue from police depts and sheriffs within CA, (they used to get a small percentage) leaving them with almost nothing from traffic enforcement cash, and no real reason to enforce traffic laws. For CHiPs it's business as usual though!

@DenverMike OK, I'm gonna go with the hard-drinking handyman maybe making that second story about the deputy up around the fifth shot of tequila... But in seriousness, the problem you're talking about really lies with an overworked, under-funded court system. But if the state went to the taxpayers and said, "hey, guys, we need more money for the courts," what would the response be, particularly from conservatives? You might as well declare it as Torches-And-Pitchforks day in Sacramento. The famous quote is "we get the government we deserve." And part of "deserve" inevitably is how much we're willing to pay.

"Screw California. They’ve killed everyone’s mpg with their formulated gasoline & poisoned our water with MTBE." I think MTBE was introduced to reduce knock and phase out lead. Does MTBE hurt mpg? (Asking, not being snarky.) "It’s sad when my vehicle gets less mpg now than it did when new." Isn't this due to the introduction of up to 10% of ethanol in order to phase out MTBE? (IIRC, aside from racing fuel, you cannot buy pure, ethanol-free gas in California.) "Get rid of 10 million illegal aliens and the air will clean itself." Yes, because all 10 million go back to their own country and drive their cars there and the wall will block CO2 emissions. And 10 million Americans from other states definitely won't move in to take their place. /sarcasm

@sayahh "10 million Americans from other states definitely won’t move in to take their place" Given growth rates, no.

@FreedMike Would you pay more taxes in order to keep Paris Hilton in our overcrowded jail cells when she gets another DUI?

@28-Cars-Later I just moved back to CA from Texas. In the last 2 weeks I've met about 4 people who knew someone that moved to Texas. Today I saw a Jeep with Texas plates, so I'm not the only one. But yea the statitics for my area aren't on the up swing.

DenverMike, "For CHiPs it’s business as usual though!" My grandson's wife, a CHiP, got her brand new Explorer recently, and it is one mean-looking Interceptor. A wealth of electronics inside. I got pictures. Can't publish them though. One reason she transferred out of San Diego's North County Sheriff's Department is because CHiPs have more and better statewide opportunities, and the pay is better. Plus, it opens up the door for the FBI, US Marshals, DHS, Secret Service, etc. Funny thing, some of the same guys who worked Patrol when my #2 son was a CHiP are now her supervisor, Lieutenant and Captain. Amazing how that works! Small world.

@FreedMike sayahh, only if she does another burger commercial showing more skin. The girl doesn't need the money. Must be an ego thing.

Fred, when I was in Ensenada, BC,Mexico for the winter I met a lot of expats from CA who live there. fulltime. It's like "little America" down there. Several of them told me that with the new guy in DC they are tempted to kick out their renters and move back to CA.

@highdesertcat In Texas I saw a lot of Tea Party flags, here I see Jefferson flags. Same old bs about succession in Texas when Obama was in charge is now going on here in California that Trump is. None of that matters because I'm getting my Elan going and I'm ready to drive these mountain roads. Twisty roads, something that is hard to find in Texas.

@Fred Did you mean secession? As in parting ways with the rest of the 49 states? IMO, CA and TX should secede. But that's just me. NM, where I live, might as well be Old Mexico because the whole state is a sanctuary state, overrun with illegal aliens of all kinds and nationalities, not just south of the border. This in spite of the fact that we have the ONLY Latina Republican Governor in the nation!

@highdesertcat Up here in Palo Alto, every time I smell un-burnt hydrocarbons, it's never a bus-boy or gardener. They're all driving Civics, Corollas, F-150s or Tacomas to blend in. The stink is always an ambulance chaser or dentist on a Harley or a stockbroker who just spent $1000 painting his '57 Chevy yet can't afford to retrofit a catalytic converter.