By on January 19, 2017

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President-elect Donald Trump’s pick to head the Environmental Protection Agency, Oklahoma Attorney General Scott Pruitt, said he plans to review the Obama administration’s recent decision to secure fuel efficiency standards through 2025.

Last week, outgoing EPA administrator Gina McCarthy bumped up the timeline for the final determination on the fuel efficiency rule in the hopes of maintaining the Obama administration’s climate legacy.

“It merits review and I would review that,” Pruitt said at yesterday’s Senate confirmation hearing. Later that same day, Pruitt confirmed that he would not permit California to continue operating under its own rules as part of its 2009 advanced clean cars program and zero emission vehicle mandates.

As predicted, California isn’t interested in being told what to do. 

The California Air Resources Board released a report Wednesday considering the future of zero-emission vehicles. CARB says it considers the current national efforts to promote electrification and reduce emissions to be tolerable, but not exactly robust. It says if federal emissions standards are drastically altered by the Trump administration, the state would have to reconsider whether or not to keep its policies synchronized with Washington’s.

“The message we want to send is that post-2025 California is moving not just to moderate, but to very aggressive, stringency on greenhouse gases and zero-emission vehicles,” Joshua Cunningham, chief of CARB’s sustainable transport staff, said in an interview with Bloomberg. “We’re pushing the boundaries.”

Some automakers have been highly critical of CARB for being impracticable on environmental issues. The Board’s recommendation for no immediate changes to the current mandates is directly counter to the desires of the incoming administration and Global Automakers, a trade group that represents major manufacturers including Honda, Hyundai, and Toyota.

California remains the largest automotive market in North America, giving it the authority to implement and maintain pollution rules that are more stringent than the national standards.

“California will continue to lead the world in addressing climate change and advancing clean energy regardless of who is in the White House or at the EPA,” Kevin de Leon, president of the California senate, said in a statement. “Mr. Pruitt should get used to that and not try to impose his Oklahoma views on the Golden State.”

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268 Comments on “Washington D.C. and California Square Off for Years of BS...”


  • avatar
    seth1065

    Well I think Calf will win this one way or another, the market is just to big to ignore so car markers will do what they have to do, most car makers think long term and Trump is short term,

    • 0 avatar
      Johnster

      Yeah, and California is one of those states that pays more in federal taxes than they get back in federal funds. I don’t think the feds would want to mess with that.

    • 0 avatar
      highdesertcat

      Years ago there were two types of emission standards, one for CA and one for the rest of the nation. So a car bought in AZ, NV, or TX could not be registered in CA. i.e. smog pumps, special engine variants, etc.

      Eventually CA and the automakers came to a happy compromise and cars would be 50-state legal. Motorists were happy campers again.

      It would be a step backwards, indeed, if CA requirements would result in a similar situation of CA-legal cars and all-others. That would make cars made for CA again higher in price because of compliance mandates, and they wouldn’t run worth a damn on a trip to the Rockies.

      • 0 avatar
        ToddAtlasF1

        CARB exists because the EPA gives them a waiver on violating the commerce clause. All it would take is a an EPA that respects the constitution, and CARB becomes an anti-American memory.

        • 0 avatar
          28-Cars-Later

          Ruh roh.

        • 0 avatar
          highdesertcat

          “All it would take is a an EPA that respects the constitution, and CARB becomes an anti-American memory.”

          That may yet happen. At this juncture we don’t know what the new administration is going to do.

          We have some inkling of what is important to them. Muslim terrorists, illegals and jobs, jobs, jobs.

          And we already know what the past eight years have wrought upon us, so to me it would seem that it can only get better under the new administration.

          I think it’s kinda exciting. I mean we know what Hillary would have brought us; more of the same Obamanomics. Epic fail!

          But Trump? Pretty successful guy. Didn’t need this new job. Would have lived pretty comfortable without it. Is taking a severe pay cut. Donating his salary to We, The People!

          I think we should give him a chance, like we gave Obama a chance. Obama failed.

          What have we got to lose with Trump? There ain’t no way to go but up.

          • 0 avatar
            GeneralMalaise

            All you proggie losermen now have less than t-minus 6 hours to move to Canada, eh.

          • 0 avatar

            I wouldn’t say there isn’t room to go down. On average Obama was well an average president. For the most parts most of his policies lined well (with a few liberal identity politics thrown in) with mainstream Left and Right ideologies. He continued most of the same major policies of every president since Reagan.
            SO while there wasn’t much hope and change form Obama there wasn’t much downfall either. Right now we seem to be in a situation where it will either be great or awful.

          • 0 avatar
            raph

            —> And we already know what the past eight years have wrought upon us, so to me it would seem that it can only get better under the new administration. <—

            Heh, thanks I needed a laugh for today.

          • 0 avatar
            highdesertcat

            I don’t think we have any way of knowing what to expect from this new guy in DC.

            He knows his station in life, and understands his place in society. And he’s got a hell of a lot more money than I do. Hence he must be successful.

            I missed the Inaugural due to previous commitments, but have seen enough of the replays on the news to recognize that Trump ripped the Obama, Bush II AND Clinton administrations a new @ss hole in his Inaugural speech, adding that all that stopped here and now.

            The people who mattered put this guy in the job. If he keeps them happy by fulfilling his promises to them, he can’t help but be their champion.

            But I can also understand that this is not a good time to be a far-left liberal progressive ‘crat, and out of power. That’s got to be the loneliest feeling.

            All that violent protesting in the streets doesn’t mean doodly-squat. Things are gonna change in America. No two ways about it.

            If the change is what his supporters asked for, then he will be in power for eight years.

        • 0 avatar

          I don’t believe there is an exemption. It’s been challenged in court before with mixed results. They way I understand it they can’t prevent people from bringing the vehicles in do to the commerce clause but they can control what can be sold in the state based on health, safety and environmental concerns. So they can’t prevent a non compliant vehicle from driving in the state they can prevent it from being sold unless there is a new Supreme court judgement. For instance several states ban chemicals like BPA where other don’t, and this has been upheld in the past.
          So I expect you may see the challenge again it’s not a light switch then can be turned off.

        • 0 avatar
          la834

          > “CARB exists because the EPA gives them a waiver on violating the commerce clause. All it would take is a an EPA that respects the constitution, and CARB becomes an anti-American memory.”

          LOL the right wing being gung-ho for “states’ rights” until a state does something they don’t like, at which time “states’ rights suck! ban them!”

          • 0 avatar
            28-Cars-Later

            Think harder. Fedgov may or may not be for state’s rights at any given time but certainly not at the expense of their own authority – this is key. Kinda like if you like your doctor, you can keep our doctor.

            D.C. was real thrilled about the S.C. secession of 1860 and subsequent events of 1861 weren’t they? Under a state’s rights framework, they would have evacuated from Ft Sumter sometime soon after secession on Dec 20 1860 (thus respecting SC’s rights), assuming that mindset actually exists in the post 1803 US (it did not, Union tried to resupply the garrison instead of evacuation).

      • 0 avatar
        SoCalMikester

        it was a bit more complicated than that, but no- you couldnt go to vegas, buy a car, then bring it back.

        they let cars in that conformed to the 49 state fed standards, but had to have over 5000 (?) miles.

        • 0 avatar
          highdesertcat

          I tried to simplify it.

          Many dealers would not touch out-of-state cars for trades.

          I had four brothers in the car business for more than 30 years. They had to turn away people moving to CA and wanting to trade their old car for a CA car.

          They did have car dealerships in CA, AZ, TX, and AL, but it cost trucking charges to move those cars back out of CA.

      • 0 avatar
        snakebit

        As long as you brought up the Rockies, at least Honda had a three-stage certification for cars in the last thirty years – 49 state, California, and high altitude(think cars being sold in Denver and surrounding area. As for Mr Pruitt bringing his Oklahoma AG attitude and sensibility to deal with CARB, both car buyers in California and manufacturers will work around him to build what the California Air Resources Board want in the way of emissions. In the 50 states, California accounts for 10 percent or more of all vehicles sold in the States. To them, Mr. Pruitt is only a short term tenant, and they’re having none of him, I assure all of you.

        • 0 avatar
          highdesertcat

          snakebit, I remember Honda’s 3-stage certification. High-altitude was sold in my area as well, elev 4800-9300ft.

          As for the CARB thing, I’m more inclined to see Pruitt work around them and letting CA set their own standards, while relaxing standards for all other states.

          That way, just about everyone is getting what they want.

  • avatar
    FreedMike

    Interesting how when it comes to burning questions like “should bakers have to bake wedding cakes for two guys named Jim,” States Rights become sacred.

    But when it comes to emissions, apparently not.

    Solution? California needs to say it’s their Christian right to set their own emissions standards. After all, God made the Earth. Right? Genius!

    • 0 avatar
      psarhjinian

      Came here to make read about the Republican’s hypocritical and ever-shifting take on states’ rights. Was not disappointed

      • 0 avatar
        FreedMike

        Wait until Trump declares the marijuana laws in places like Colorado to be null and void (probably over Twitter, no less). Referendum? Popular vote? Nonsense! I am Twitter Duce!

        • 0 avatar
          dukeisduke

          Technically, the laws are null and void, it’s just the Feds haven’t been pushing the matter.

          • 0 avatar
            FreedMike

            It appears those days might be over.

            http://www.denverpost.com/2016/11/18/donald-trump-jeff-sessions-legal-marijuana/

            What I find most interesting about Trump is that while I doubt he’s into the old-school, old-right, moral-majority playbook, the people he has been appointing to high positions are. That was probably the price he paid for getting the GOP to back him.

          • 0 avatar
            ttacgreg

            Technically, Colorado raised a petition to put a State Constitutional amendment on the ballot that overrode the anti-cannabis laws in the state.
            Can the Federal Government force a state to outlaw something?
            What does this tell us about the GOP in particular about their attitudes towards popular will and elections, and the basic tenets of democracy?
            Snark-I await the jack booted Fed’s invasion and occupation of Colorado any day now.

        • 0 avatar
          Lou_BC

          It isn’t marijauna.

          It is cannabis.

          If they (old white boys) start to clue in, just say, “We dispense Cannabidiol and tetrahydrocannabinol blended products.”

        • 0 avatar
          jrhmobile

          Close. I prefer to refer to him as Cheeto-lini …

        • 0 avatar
          GeneralMalaise

          Don’t worry, freedmike. You’ll still be able to get your abortions and enjoy those intoxicating blasts of stupefaction.

          • 0 avatar
            FreedMike

            “Don’t worry, freedmike. You’ll still be able to get your abortions and enjoy those intoxicating blasts of stupefaction.”

            Fascinating, since I have never had an abortion (being a man kind of disqualifies me), wouldn’t get one even if I was a woman (unless the pregnancy was killing me…and I know women this happened to), and haven’t gotten high since 1994.

            Personally, I’d look for another line of work if I were you…clearly, the mind-reader gig ain’t working out.

            (Moral of the story: there’s a big difference between thinking someone has the right to do something and thinking it’s a good idea, much less wanting to do it yourself. Something about “I can’t control other peoples’ behaviors even if I disapprove of them” comes to mind. And now you have something new to ponder.)

          • 0 avatar
            GeneralMalaise

            Lighten up, Francis. You question the motivation of others. Turn about is fair play. What’s good for the goose is good for the gomer.

          • 0 avatar
            SoCalMikester

            because alcohol prohibition worked so well, right?

            if somebody wants to sit on their couch, smoke out and binge watch rick and morty, who cares? they arent at a bar, drinking until they cant see straight, then driving home.

            and there would be a lot less abortions if female birth control was easy and cheap to get. and offer a male version too. id be sooo on that, because condoms suck.

          • 0 avatar
            FreedMike

            “Lighten up, Francis.”

            Oh, I see…act like an a-hole to someone and then accuse him of taking things too seriously when he gets back up in your face.

            (That, or when you lose an argument, claim it was just a joke so you can make yourself believe it wasn’t argument to begin with.)

            Attention TTAC: trolls like this are exactly why there should be an ignore button.

        • 0 avatar
          FOG

          You left out an “h” Twitter du…

    • 0 avatar
      Astigmatism

      States’ rights are sacred when they can be used to override individual rights.

      States’ rights are an abomination when they can be used to override corporate rights.

    • 0 avatar
      Trucky McTruckface

      Interesting how when it comes to burning questions like “should we burden auto consumers with extra regulation costs because of pop science,” States Rights become sacred.

      But when it comes to respecting individual religious beliefs, apparently not.

      Because emissions and religious freedoms are totally the same thing. Herp derp, #NotMyPresident.

      • 0 avatar
        highdesertcat

        For a while there CA-refinery gasoline was refined and blended to a different standard than all others outside of CA.

        Which was strange since CA exports much of its gasoline, diesel and kerosene (jet fuels) to its neighboring states, where it was promptly mixed with additives prohibited in CA.

        The end result was people buying gas in AZ and NV and bringing it back into CA. I used to do that when going into CA. I’d top off and fill 4 5-gal jugs with gas at Quartzsite and carry them in the back of my truck, to use along the way.

        Others, closer to the southern border would fill up with PEMEX gas in Mexico.

      • 0 avatar
        FreedMike

        “Pop science,” Trucky?

        Sorry, smog ain’t “pop science.” Air pollution causes a huge range of proven health issues and environmental problems that have absolutely nothing to do with global warming.

        • 0 avatar
          SoCalMikester

          those chinese arent wearing the surgical masks for their…

          oh yeah they are.

          ive only lived in the LA area since the late 80s, and the air is so much cleaner and less smelly. VOCs make air smell.

    • 0 avatar
      Sceptic

      What is so hard to understand? Keep it simple:

      1. Bakers should be able to bake or not bake whatever they want for whoever they want. No cannabis cakes though ;)
      2. States have the right to pass their own laws within Constitutional limits. California can regulate its emissions controls/gas formulas etc, however, it cannot interfere with interstate commerce. I.e. out of state vehicles/fuels imported into CA are legal as long as they satisfy fed requirements.

      • 0 avatar
        Arthur Dailey

        The problem with Point #1 is that it was widely followed in parts of the USA for one hundred years. Called segregation. And found to be in contradiction of the Constitution.

      • 0 avatar
        philipwitak

        re: “California can regulate its emissions controls/gas formulas etc, however, it cannot interfere with interstate commerce. I.e. out of state vehicles/fuels imported into CA are legal as long as they satisfy fed requirements.”

        so how do you square your assertion above, with the fact that some older vehicles are still legal to operate in the ‘other forty-nine’ but illegal in california? i.e. maserati’s bora and original ghibli?

    • 0 avatar
      April

      Now I want cake.

    • 0 avatar
      Drzhivago138

      Why would anyone wanna marry a guy with the same name as them?

  • avatar
    OldManPants

    Damn Yankees.

  • avatar
    kefkafloyd

    People have apparently forgotten what clouds-of-smog over Los Angeles looked like, about how people couldn’t go outside for air quality problems. What’s next, allowing asbestos back in to buildings?

    • 0 avatar
      FreedMike

      You don’t get it.

      What’s the Republican population of Los Angeles County? That’s the consideration here.

      (I wish I could say this ain’t true…but it is these days.)

      • 0 avatar
        kefkafloyd

        If I could punch Scott Pruitt, I would. I lived through the Superfund cleanup of my hometown, and the carcinogenic chemicals that my dad worked near on a daily basis are certainly one reason he’s dying of cancer.

        General Electric dumped that shit into our rivers and lakes despite knowing that it was a carcinogen, and barely cleaned up it when dragged kicking and screaming to do it.

      • 0 avatar
        shaker

        “What’s the Republican population of Los Angeles County?”

        Take the number of 9mm handguns in LAC to the minus 1 power?

      • 0 avatar
        carlisimo

        “What’s the Republican population of Los Angeles County?”
        Some article today pointed out that Trump got more votes in the city of Los Angeles than in West Virginia, for what it’s worth.

        • 0 avatar
          shaker

          “Trump got more votes in the city of Los Angeles than in West Virginia”

          Every morning, I wake up in Bizzaro World, so I’m not surprised.

          Maybe my aching dread about the future is wrong, too.

          • 0 avatar
            ect

            “Trump got more votes in the city of Los Angeles than in West Virginia”

            This statement, by itself is utterly meaningless. The City of Los Angeles has 4 million people, WV has 1.85 million. If Trump were to be even competitive in LA, he’d get about as many votes as there are voters in WV. Apparently, he didn’t.

          • 0 avatar
            shaker

            We’ll be trading smug comments when the world goes up in flames, too.

        • 0 avatar
          Pch101

          West Virginia: 27% Clinton, 69% Trump
          LA County: 72% Clinton, 23% Trump.

          LA County has six times the population of West Virginia, so there is really no comparison. If you look at a map of LA County precincts, it is mostly a sea of blue.

          • 0 avatar
            GeneralMalaise

            He did say, “for what it’s worth”. Apparently it was worth a squadron of insects marching up several lower digestive tracts.

    • 0 avatar
      S2k Chris

      Well now let’s not be ridiculous. No one is talking about rolling back all emissions regs everywhere, they’re talking about CA losing their special snowflake status where they can essentially mandate electric cars over time. No question that some pollution controls are good, the question is whether more are better, and where you draw that line. CARB has always been very aggressive, and my guess is that they are close to if not past the point of diminishing returns to just being a pain in the A** and no longer making productive gains.

      • 0 avatar
        ilkhan

        CARB blew by diminishing returns long ago. A 20% improvement in China would be a hell of a lot more effective than a 50% improvement in the US.

        Oh, and CA is shutting down our last nuke plant (which produces 8-10% of the state’s power) to help product some bird nobody has ever heard of. In a state that already sees rolling blackouts and brownouts in summer. Fucking hippies.

      • 0 avatar
        JD-Shifty

        people who use the word “snowflake” set off idiot detectors all over.

      • 0 avatar
        mtmmo

        Not only are they ridiculous but they’re also petty and small minded. That’s why they need their safety pins.

      • 0 avatar
        Cactuar

        How exactly will they mandate electric cars? The consumer decides what he wants.

      • 0 avatar
        George B

        California also has a real local problem with smog in the Los Angeles basin and a history of state regulations to deal with that problem. The Clean Air Act preserved California’s ability to more aggressively attempt to regulate the precursors of smog than the national regulations. In contrast, carbon dioxide is neither toxic in these low concentrations nor is its concentration locally high. California can raise its fuel excise taxes to reduce fuel consumption and they can create state tax credits to encourage Californians to buy electric cars, but they don’t have unlimited power to demand auto manufacturers sell electric cars in California at a loss.

        • 0 avatar
          highdesertcat

          I was born there and much of that pollution was brought on by industry such as the tire and rubber plants, refineries and coal-fired electricity-generating plants.

          • 0 avatar
            FreedMike

            True, HDC, but cars are a HUGE contributor to smog as well.

          • 0 avatar
            highdesertcat

            Yes, I agree that cars were huge contributors to smog back then.

            One such factor (when I was a kid in Huntington Beach, CA) was cars in dire need of a ring and valve job, and a major tune-up. Billowing clouds of blue and black smoke.

            Even new cars with carburetors ran far too rich all of the time, even at sea-level.

            But the air got suddenly cleaner when the factories were banned from where they had been since WWII and moved to industrial parks on the outskirts.

            It took about ten years, and electronic fuel-metering, catalytic converters, etc to make that happen. LAX is still a major polluter.

            And the motorists had to pay more to get less. Fortunately the advances in electronics and micro-computers have given us the excellent engines and transmissions we have today.

            But there’s no need to force Obama’s EPA mandates on every other state; all for his clean-air legacy?

            The guy has NO legacy. It will be as if he didn’t even existed.

          • 0 avatar
            GeneralMalaise

            Anyone who grew up in SoCal back in the 60s and 70s (Anaheim in my case) remembers the smog days when drawing a deep breath was physically painful, let alone limited visibility. Regulation and the industries’ improvements had a huge, positive impact. But as has been mentioned, returns have been diminishing for several years. 2008 standards should be maintained. There a fine line between advocacy and ideological fanaticism.

          • 0 avatar
            FreedMike

            (What General Malaise seems to forget is that the L.A. metro area has almost *twice* as many people today as it did when he couldn’t breathe there…could this be the reason why the state wants to keep the standards in place? Nawwww…)

          • 0 avatar
            GeneralMalaise

            You forget that 2008 standards are fairly exacting standards. They still work.

          • 0 avatar
            FreedMike

            Given the population growth in places like L.A., the question is how much longer those standards will work. Again: L.A. is almost twice as big now as it was in the 1970’s.

            Given that, walking the regs back seems like a really bad idea to me, and I’m a guy who never even set foot in L.A. when the smog was at its’ worst. I can’t fathom someone who actually lived there taking a chance on going back to that.

          • 0 avatar
            JimZ

            @GeneralMalaise

            the real question is why you think you should be able to arbitrarily decide what “level” of standards should remain in place. there’s a reason we have these people called “experts,” and it’s not just so you can have someone to ignore when it’s convenient.

          • 0 avatar
            GeneralMalaise

            Your “argument from authority” rings hollow when you talk of “experts” and provide no evidence.

      • 0 avatar
        kefkafloyd

        These companies do nothing unless forced, and somebody has to take the lead. I live in a state that has emissions standards pegged to California (Massachusetts) and I am perfectly A-OK with ratcheting standards, and I’m also OK with paying for them. When the cost is spread across more things, it makes it cheaper for everyone. Mass. also has sensible regulations for classic/antique cars and racers as well. Zero emissions should be a goal we all work to.

        If I could punch Scott Pruitt, I would. I lived through the Superfund cleanup of my hometown, and the carcinogenic chemicals that my dad worked near on a daily basis are certainly one reason he’s dying of cancer.

        General Electric dumped that crap into our rivers and lakes despite knowing that it was a carcinogen, and barely cleaned up it when dragged kicking and screaming to do it.

        • 0 avatar
          GeneralMalaise

          You’ve been under Democrat control in Mass for how long in the last half century?

          • 0 avatar
            kefkafloyd

            I don’t usually get in political arguments in these comments, but this is one subject I do not hold back on. I have no quarter for people who pollute the environment, and I’m as country as they come (since I lived in a rural area where we passed our time by hunting, fishing, and camping).

            GE dumped PCBs for decades in the mid-twentieth century, lied about the risks, and the state and federal EPA forced them to clean up their mess after years of fighting in courts. It took many years to learn just exactly how bad they were, GE fought the state and local municipalities tooth and nail, and did not go above and beyond to repair the damage they did to both the Berkshires and its citizens.

            You should do some research on GE’s environmental travesties in Massachusetts and upstate New York and think twice about whether large corporations will choose profit or helping our environment. Hint, they’ll do the former unless forced.

          • 0 avatar
            FreedMike

            “Democrat control.”

            Oh, dear…it’s like that for this guy, I guess.

            Seriously, TTAC…ignore button. Please.

        • 0 avatar
          shaker

          “General Electric dumped that crap into our rivers and lakes despite knowing that it was a carcinogen…”

          Jaunty Jack Welch thanks you, BTW. And… GO TRUMP

    • 0 avatar
      SoCalMikester

      yeah, just google “LA freeway smog 1966” and do an image search.

      i just found out you could burn trash in your back yard up into the late 50s in so cal.

      i remember burning piles of leaves in suburban chicago in the 80s. brings back memories.

    • 0 avatar
      April

      kefkafloyd, if they could get their way they would put lead back in gasoline.

  • avatar
    Metal

    “Mr. Pruitt should get used to that and not try to impose his Oklahoma views on the Golden State.”
    oh SNAP

    • 0 avatar
      Chan

      I felt the burn there.

      That’s the thing when California is more progressive than most of the country. What are you going to do? Have federal police escort shipments of 49-state cars into CA and force dealers to buy them? Declare Californian marriages illegal?

      California is going to keep being progressive and keep enforcing more stringent rules because it has the economic power and the mandate of its residents to do so. I hate that CA makes it difficult to own old cars, but I realistically acknowledge that change can only come from within and not from Capitol Hill.

      • 0 avatar
        stingray65

        “California is going to keep being progressive and keep enforcing more stringent rules because it has the economic power and the mandate of its residents to do so.”

        Until they run out of other people’s money to spend on their progressive policies, and that day is coming sooner by the minute.

        http://fortune.com/2016/07/19/pension-underfunded/
        http://www.sacbee.com/site-services/databases/article32679753.html
        http://www.breitbart.com/california/2016/08/06/9000-companies-left-california-since-2008/
        https://rctom.hbs.org/submission/weathering-the-storm-kleiner-perkins-and-the-tragedy-of-clean-tech-venture-capital/

        • 0 avatar
          Yuppie

          Other people’s money? California subsidizes the rest of the USA, its GDP exceeds that of all but 5 countries in the world. It is the red states in the middle of the country that are spending other people’s money.

          Yes, Californian people and companies can up and leave, but by and large they do not.

          • 0 avatar
            golden2husky

            As goes California, so goes the nation. I like that much better than whats good for General Motors is good for the country (and Ralph Nader ain’t no good for General Motors – I added that for fans of All in the Family).

            California has the economic might to set policy and direction. Sometimes the needs of CA are also good for other states, other times not so much. That said, I’d rather err on the side of cleaner and more efficient. And let’s dispel the myth that such regulation “kills” jobs. It might skew the job market, but not nearly as much as technology does. Cars are made with fewer people, toll takers are being replaced with automation, trains no longer have “firemen” fueling the locomotive with coal. These technological changes to the market are inevitable. Such regulation can benefit those in the position that find ways to efficiently meet them.

          • 0 avatar
            GeneralMalaise

            “Yes, Californian people and companies can up and leave, but by and large they do not.”

            They have been for years.

        • 0 avatar
          mtmmo

          People who think CA has a financially sound economy must have attended the Obama school of Economics. The highly respected Mercatus Center ranks CA 44th in fiscal health. Numbers matters.

          • 0 avatar
            jkross22

            The state never really recovered. It just papered over the out of control spending by having Jerry Brown convince enough people that there’s such a thing as a ‘temporary tax increase’ and convinced them to vote for it.

            Here’s the funny punchline: despite the temporary tax increases, Brown projects that the state will run over a $1.5 billion deficit this year.

            Common fiscal sense left this state long ago.

          • 0 avatar
            FreedMike

            “Numbers matters.”

            So does grammar. I believe the phrase you were trying to utter was “numbers matter.”

            (See, even a dumb old liberal like me knows that. But I digress.)

          • 0 avatar
            FreedMike

            @jkross:
            “Common fiscal sense left this state long ago.”

            It left a LOT of states too…many of which are red as it gets.

        • 0 avatar
          Lou_BC

          Breitbart is a source?

          Mercatus Center……. Opened and funded by the Koch Brothers.

          • 0 avatar
            GeneralMalaise

            There are studies on the innernetz that rank fiscal health on a state by state basis. The “Blue Model” is a failed model.

            I’ll see your Koch Bros and raise you George Soros.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            GeneralMalaise- Yin and Yang. 2 sides of the coin my friend.

          • 0 avatar
            GeneralMalaise

            And yet YOU will never mention Soros. What he donates far surpasses that from the Kochs. Google is your friend.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            GeneralMalaise – My comment was in reference to Mercatus Center. Soros doesn’t fund them.

            Since you went to the topic of election campaign funding, there is something seriously wrong with “the system” when EACH side spends over a billion JUST for the President’s office.

          • 0 avatar
            GeneralMalaise

            Here, I’ll help you, Lou: https://www.city-journal.org/html/connoisseur-chaos-14954.html

            You can TML…

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            @GeneralMalaise – thanks for the link.

            Neoliberal free market proponents exist on both sides of the political spectrum. Soros just like the Koch brothers function to serve and protect their own interests at the detriment of others. That is a fact regardless of political ideology.
            As I said earlier. 2 sides of the coin.

          • 0 avatar
            GeneralMalaise

            Your reading comprehension is suspect, Lou. Soros makes his money off of shorting currency and other people’s misery. Hungary is about to drop the hammer on him.

            Two sides, psshhhhhhh…

          • 0 avatar
            Fred

            Everyone likes to talk about Soros and Koch, but that’s really missing the point.
            http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/list.php

            Not to mention the whole dark money thing.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            GeneralMalaise – Oh now i get it. Lying, stealing and cheating is only bad if someone from the left does it.
            That explains everything.

          • 0 avatar
            GeneralMalaise

            Straw man argument, Lou. In the case of the Kochs and Soros, Soros is the only lying, cheating thief.

      • 0 avatar
        2manycars

        California is not “progressive.” California is certifiably insane. I sure as h-e-double-hockey-sticks would never live there. Many of us in the remaining 49 states would not shed a tear if the California fruits, nuts, and special snowflakes made good on their threat to secede because of the Big Bad Donald. Or if the Big One finally came and the state just fell off into the ocean. (“Goodbye San Andreas, ain’t our our fault, goodbye…”) Those of us in the heartland have had it up to “here” with California’s brand of jack-booted “progressivism.”

        CO2 is not a pollutant. There is no reason to “control” or “restrict” it. It used to be that there were cars built to different standards – there were California cars and 49-state cars. California got the shittier, less powerful cars with fewer drivetrain selections.

        There’s no reason not to go that route again. Let the idiot snowflakes have their battery-operated toys while their power grid goes down due to their refusal to build generating stations. The rest of us will be thundering around in gas guzzling V8s – and loving it.

      • 0 avatar
        SoCalMikester

        ive got mixed feelings. is clean air great? yeah. when do the regulations start being onerous? i thought banning new 2 stroke engines was dumb.

        weedwackers? offroad only (at the time) MX bikes??? who else used new 2 strokes?

        • 0 avatar
          Arthur Dailey

          @GeneralMalaise: President Trump’s handpicked Secretary of the Treaury was a partner in SFM Capital Management with George Soros. Just one among others of Steven Mnuchin’s other sordid activities.

          This is a problem with the President’s most virulent supporters, they have problem with maintaining a consistent pattern of reasoning. It is very hard to drain the swamp and correct the system when the very people who created the problem are restored to power. For example 5 ex Goldman-Sachs employees in the new administration.

          We will see how things go. The optimistic among us rest our case on the fact that the President appears to be more of a pragmatist than an idealogue. And that generally is a very good thing.

          • 0 avatar
            FreedMike

            “This is a problem with the President’s most virulent supporters, they have problem with maintaining a consistent pattern of reasoning.”

            I think you’re overselling what he believes in. He’s just a troll. Trolls believe in nothing besides the virtue of continuing to troll.

          • 0 avatar
            GeneralMalaise

            Man… I take back that accusation of you wanting to maintain your access to abortions. That really seemed to set you off.

            Peace, my brother.

          • 0 avatar
            GeneralMalaise

            The last administration AND the failed Democrat candidate were controlled by GS and Wall Street. I didn’t hear or read too much of a fuss raised about that.

            All of a sudden, it’s a bad thing.

      • 0 avatar
        carguy67

        “I hate that CA makes it difficult to own old cars…”

        Huh??? In my family we have:

        – ’19 Seagrave Pumper fire engine
        – ’46 Chevy 2-Ton Truck
        – ’55 T-Bird
        – ’56 Austin-Healey BN2/100M
        – ’65 Mustang 289 Convertible
        – ’67 Austin-Healey 3000

        Except for the fire engine, which has ‘antique’ plates, none require anything other than the nominal registration fees and taxes. No inspections–we maintain them all ourselves–and no smog checks for any of them. Now, painting them is a different story.

        • 0 avatar
          GeneralMalaise

          Sweet line-up there!

          • 0 avatar
            Arthur Dailey

            Actually many people complained about the Democrats and in particular Hilary being too close to the Wall Street fatcats. Including the many Democratic Party member who supported Bernie. And in particular Mr. Trump during his campaign. And his supporters. Now that multiple ex Goldman Sachs employees have been appointed to the administration does that not indicate some sort of circular logic or reneging on campaign promises?

            It certainly is not compatible with ‘draining the swamp’.

        • 0 avatar
          Chan

          Crap, I bit off more than I could chew.

          I’m just stuck in an era (90s) that is not yet smog-exempt, but old enough that cats for my car are no longer available.

          Yes, as long as your car is old enough to be smog-exempt CA is an awesome place to play with cars.

          And for those who think people are leaving CA en masse, why is it that even more people are trying to move in? I’m waiting for home prices to drop!

    • 0 avatar
      28-Cars-Later

      So turnabout is not fair play, eh?

  • avatar
    ajla

    Kill CAFE, leave the emission standards alone, and let California do what it wants.

  • avatar
    Felix Hoenikker

    Uh Oh. THe wingnuts rise!

  • avatar
    Chan

    Realistically, Washington has no economic teeth to bite CA with. CA is a driver of the American economy.

    It’s going to continue doing what its population wants. But that last statement about Oklahoma carried an arrogant passive-aggressive tone and was unnecessary.

    • 0 avatar
      Lorenzo

      The feds have the interstate commerce clause to override CARB mandates. California doesn’t drive the US economy anymore, all it makes is vaporware. Even the hardware for that is made in China, not Cali.

      The only automaker still in Cali is Tesla, in a plant abandoned by GM and Toyota. All the other GM, Ford and Chrysler plants have long since shut down. In aerospace, Lockheed, General Dynamics, McDonnell-Douglas and Boeing’s purchases have all moved out, many to Texas.

      The oil industry that once produced over 2 million barrels a day now produces less than 500,000 barrels, less than half California’s consumption, with 4/5ths of the shortfall from Alaska and the rest imported. Of 47 historical refineries, only 17 are operational, with four others idled. The other 26 have closed permanently, most of them since 1980.

      The state’s largest employers are the Navy, Disneyland and various units of the University of California, which would be number one if combined. After that, there’s nothing but Taco Bell and McDonald’s.

      That’s not driving the US economy.

      • 0 avatar
        FreedMike

        “The state’s largest employers are the Navy, Disneyland and various units of the University of California, which would be number one if combined. After that, there’s nothing but Taco Bell and McDonald’s.”

        I think you forgot a little place called “Silicon Valley.” That generates a fairly large percentage of the United States’ GDP. And last I checked, that’s in California.

        Like many states, California’s economy moved away from smokestack industries a long, long time ago. The stuff that drives their economy now is tech, trade and finance. And the state is either near or at the top of the list when it comes to those sectors. It’s number 3 in income per capita. Someone’s making money.

        Just sayin’.

      • 0 avatar
        Pch101

        “The feds have the interstate commerce clause to override CARB mandates.”

        Er, the California waiver is included in the Clean Air Act.

        I suspect that you had no idea that CARB was started when Ronald Reagan was governor of California.

        If some of you had a new year’s resolution to get your facts straight, then you’re off to a bad start.

        • 0 avatar
          Lou_BC

          Pch101 – Trump won. Facts are no longer necessary.

        • 0 avatar
          Lorenzo

          I was living in California when Reagan was governor, and when the formation of CARB was intended to coordinate the policies of various air quality districts into a coherent set of rules statewide.

          BTW the Clean Air Act AUTHORIZES the California waivers for those air quality districts, it was never intended to give CARB authority to set statewide auto emissions standards. EPA officials, not Congress, administratively yielded federal authority to CARB.

          As for your suspicions of other posters without knowing their backgrounds, I’m not playing that game.

  • avatar
    dukeisduke

    Maybe slow down on the standards (not scrap them), but definitely scrap the RFS. Get that ethanol outta my gasoline!

  • avatar
    Crosley

    Pull highway funding if they won’t comply. Shoe’s on the other foot now.

    Good luck with the silly high speed rail that keeps going over budget that they need federal funds to complete.

    California doesn’t need the Feds anyway, they plan on seceding.

  • avatar
    April S

    Scott Pruitt: Fox guarding the henhouse.

    • 0 avatar
      golden2husky

      Or Hitler in charge of investigating Nazi war crimes. He is that bad. 97% of the world’s climatologists are convinced that man is influencing climate. The head of the group that is supposed to do something about it is part of the 3%. Oh, wait he is not a scientist.

      • 0 avatar
        Trucky McTruckface

        So not fully buying into climate change hysteria makes one Hitler? Hyperbole much?

        • 0 avatar
          golden2husky

          No, but he is in charge of the agency that is supposed to protect the environment and he is willing to gut the very mechanism needed and entrusted to do so. His interests are not on par with the mission of agency, if fact they run the very opposite. He puts the energy industry’s profits before the people he is supposed to represent.

          • 0 avatar
            mtmmo

            WOW you have a severe case of Trump Derangement Syndrome.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            Mtmmo – “Trump Derangement Syndrome” Wow. They have an official diagnosis pinned to putinspotus.

          • 0 avatar
            GeneralMalaise

            Wow, a lot of sore losermen here any more. Where’s vogo? Did he finally say, “my work here are dun?”

            And we’re left with inebriated Canadian knobs picking up the slack. That ain’t what NAFTA is all about!

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            GeneralMalaise – well, if ad homeninum attacks work for putinspotus then it must work for his Oompa Loompas. You forgot CAPSLOCK. Deplorable’s’.

          • 0 avatar
            GeneralMalaise

            Why, I’m beginning to think you’re some kind of gingerist, Lou.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            @GeneralMalaise – ” gingerist ”

            I’m crushed.

            Orange Crush!

          • 0 avatar
            28-Cars-Later

            Anti-gingerite.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            “Anti-gingerite”

            Only in a bad comb over.

          • 0 avatar
            GeneralMalaise

            LOL on the crushed

          • 0 avatar
            VoGo

            Where’s vogo?

            As it turns out, I occasionally have to neglect my duties here and put food on the table.

            Frankly, I’m glad to have missed the fireworks here. There are a few alt right voices who constantly resort to personal attacks rather than state their views logically. And I just don’t have the patience for this garbage anymore.

          • 0 avatar
            ect

            Yes, there are. And they get tolerated even though they persistently violate what are supposed to be the commenting rules and their sad vitriol contaminates my inbox.

          • 0 avatar
            GeneralMalaise

            Your alt left eliminationist rhetoric was almost missed, vogo. Glad to hear they got that drive-thru window fixed.

          • 0 avatar
            ect

            “Your alt left eliminationist rhetoric was almost missed, vogo. Glad to hear they got that drive-thru window fixed.”

            This is a classic example of the mindless vitriol that has no place on this board. Mark, where are you?

    • 0 avatar
      April S

      Re: “Trump Derangement Syndrome”

      Is that good or bad? I ask because I can’t find it in the DSM-5

  • avatar
    SCE to AUX

    CARB should remember that the 49-state market is bigger than California’s, and so should the automakers.

    • 0 avatar
      highdesertcat

      But 50-state legal was a real boost to America. I brought a CA car of that era back to NM way back when, and it didn’t run worth a damn at my altitude, no matter what kind of gas I put in it.

      At that time there was just something about a CA smog-pump that was not only annoying but downright power-robbing and valve-seat fouling because of EGR.

      • 0 avatar
        SoCalMikester

        that was “way back when” though. but yes… you have a point.

        ive got a 2005 yamaha XT225 dualsport, bought new, with CA emissions and carb. it was always finicky to start cold- lots of choke, always stumbled off idle.

        unfortunately my riding partner sold his truck and the bike got parked for years. fuel system eroded. carb got trashed.

        bought a used carb off ebay last year, from VA. bolted that thing on and it ran better than ever. instant start, little choke. ran smooth. granted, thats an 80s era bike.

  • avatar
    zip94513

    Get rid of CARB, a waste of California tax dollars. Even worse was CA mandating retroactive NOX mandates on vehicles not designed to meet the requirements, making the vehicles intentionally failing smog tests.

  • avatar
    gaycorvette

    Sigh. These are the same automakers that claimed mandating seatbelts would put them all out of business in the 60s. Perhaps they should devote their attention to building cars that don’t kill their drivers, and leave emissions regulations to the adults at CARB.

    • 0 avatar
      jkross22

      Go check out the CARB website and look at the profiles of its board members. I counted 2 doctors and 1 scientist, so 3/14 have some level of technical, professional knowledge of the subject matter which they work. The rest were ex-CEO’s, lawyers and politicians.

      Any guesses why CARB does what it does can be found in the professional background of its board members.

      • 0 avatar
        Lou_BC

        How does that differ from any other board?

        • 0 avatar
          jkross22

          Not sure that’s a solid rationale for staffing CARB with non-scientists.

          • 0 avatar
            ect

            jkross22, there’s a big difference between staffing and the Board of Directors. For the latter, you want people who understand how to run a complex organization and can provide strategic advice and direction to the CEO.

            The CEO and his reports hire the staff, which is where you’ll find all manner of technical expertise.

  • avatar
    ect

    “critical of CARB for being impracticable”? I think you meant to say “impractical”, impracticable refers to something that is unfeasible or overly difficult to make or accomplish.

  • avatar
    srd275

    It might have made sense back in the 70’s to have carb, but really carb seems locked in elitist environmental lobby pushing “regs” that are really want to outlaw IC engines.

    EPA should be the ONLY one regulating emissions, NOT a state board that seems locked in west coast lunacy now.

    As it is the EPA itself seems more like dogma in the CO2 stuff (which is NOT a harmful emission, no matter how much the elitist keep trying to stop debate.)

    The real danger to the environment is loss of habitat, not how much co 2 a car, OR a HUMAN, or a cow breathes out.

    Time to reign the EPA. They need to start answering to congress, NOT the Environmental lobby who seems more interested in dogma.

    • 0 avatar
      highdesertcat

      Maybe things will change. The entire political landscape will change at 12p EST tomorrow.

      • 0 avatar
        Lou_BC

        And Putin saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning…………

        • 0 avatar
          FreedMike

          …and behold, two hackers, Leonid and Vitaly, were born. And Putin said, be fruitful and multiply.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            Watch out for the book of Revelation……. or Wikileaks.

          • 0 avatar
            Big Al From 'Murica

            So is WikiLeaks good or bad today. I am confused since the OG WikiLeaker is being let out of jail 28 years early. Additionally I recall that circa 2010 the leaks were seen as a positive by most in the press with everything taken as gospel.

          • 0 avatar
            JimZ

            Depends on whether you get your opinions from Breitbart or DailyKos.

          • 0 avatar
            GeneralMalaise

            You’ve at least embraced the first one there, Mike.

        • 0 avatar
          jkross22

          Maybe the Democrats can round up a better candidate than Hillary Clinton next time.

          • 0 avatar
            28-Cars-Later

            Maybe the party members who engaged in a criminal conspiracy to fix the primary for Hillary can be brought to justice?

          • 0 avatar
            JimZ

            Uh, how does the manner in which the DNC selects a candidate have any criminal implications?

          • 0 avatar
            28-Cars-Later

            Denial ain’t just a river in Egypt.

          • 0 avatar
            JimZ

            that’s not an answer.

          • 0 avatar
            28-Cars-Later

            Was your question rhetorical or did you just tune out of reality this past year?

          • 0 avatar
            GeneralMalaise

            It’s amusing that the Democrats never denied the content of the sordid emails, and used their “squirrel! … over there!!!” defense.

          • 0 avatar
            JimZ

            I asked you a simple, specific f**king question. if you’re just going to dodge, weave, and misdirect then don’t waste my time.

          • 0 avatar
            28-Cars-Later

            @GeneralMalaise

            Precisely and speaking in a strictly neutral position it is dangerous to allow a major party to engage in criminal behavior to ensure a specific candidate is chosen. The heart of the matter is a national security issue. If I was a Bernie supported I would still be livid and as a citizen I ask rhetorically, where is the rule of law?

            @Jim

            Ouch, sand in your vagina today? Try to look past your PMS and see the bigger problem in allowing a criminal conspiracy to rig a national election primary. I’m not trolling, its a real problem with the end result being the exact opposite as the conspirators intended. The only other thing I find more shocking was Ted Kennedy’s 1983 clandestine attempt to reach out to Andropov/Soviet Intelligence in a quid pro quo arrangement to help Andropov defuse tensions in exchange for helping the Democratic party defeat Reagan in 1984. (kinda treasonous, see link).

            http://www.forbes.com/2009/08/27/ted-kennedy-soviet-union-ronald-reagan-opinions-columnists-peter-robinson.html#

            FTR I still say we are screwed, just slightly less screwed.

          • 0 avatar
            GeneralMalaise

            Watching the use of fascist tactics to allegedly fight against fascism play out on the streets of fever swampy America today is a schadenboner-y thing.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            jkross22 – Hitlery and Cheetoman won their party’s selection process. Both had the poorest ratings of any candidate.

            Inflation – a billion doesn’t get you much nowadays.

    • 0 avatar
      SoCalMikester

      no, time to reign in CARB.

      gas stations here have used vacuum boots to trap and recycle VOCs for years. but car makers have been using similar systems to trap and recycle vapors since 1996.

      so you have 2 systems fighting themselves.

      we could have nozzles as cheap and easy to use as arizona, knowing that 99.9% of cars in california already recover vapors and recycle.

  • avatar
    furiouschads

    CARB keeps the regs honest and strong. If CARB goes away, or if Trump’s EPA becomes the final authority, then the industry will stop making progress and will go into reverse in favor of more profit. They sell dirtier cars in other markets already.

    This reminds me of the Southern states saying they were done with that poll-taxy treatment of black voters. Roberts-Scalia court guts the Voting Rights Act and hey presto, the Southern states get very clever and active at putting fresh obstacles in the way of the black vote.

    • 0 avatar
      28-Cars-Later

      CARB has certainly enjoyed some success at the expense of everyone else, but like so much in government it is obsolete and should be retired. I seem to recall reading either from 1980 or 1990 emissions levels in LA were reduced something like 90%, which is incredibly commendable, but the next 3% per period is more expensive than it is worth. Pick a standard (i.e. that 90% reduced figure) and stick with it. Eventually the technology to go beyond 90% will get cheaper and be voluntarily installed, a pesky [semi-] free market tends to do that sort of thing.

    • 0 avatar
      highdesertcat

      “CARB keeps the regs honest and strong. If CARB goes away, or if Trump’s EPA becomes the final authority, then the industry will stop making progress and will go into reverse in favor of more profit.”

      I think it is all about reaching a balance. The EPA has over-reached its authority. CARB doesn’t have to go away but their mandates do not apply to many of the other 49 states. And never will. Different circumstances, one and all.

      Why raise the cost of doing business for the other 49 states? NM, AZ, NV, and many other states do not have the same pollution as CA.

      What applies to CA is not always good for everybody else.

      I suspect that the new administration will also get “very clever” and active at circumventing what CA wants to inflict on the rest of the nation.

      Maybe it is time for CA to secede. It would be no different than crossing the border into Canada or Mexico, or crossing borders in the European Union.

      • 0 avatar
        28-Cars-Later

        Fedgov has too many assets in Kali, they will have to find ways to maneuver and be open to compromise.

        Personally I’d go Robespierre on all their asses and I’d enjoy watching the corruption burn.

        • 0 avatar
          highdesertcat

          I agree – this is all posturing. But there is no doubt in my mind that the new administration will exact their pound of flesh from CA by being “very clever” and active at circumventing what CA and Obama’s EPA want to inflict on the rest of the nation.

          One thing would be to revert back to the double-standard of yore, one set of mandates for CA, another different set for the other 49.

          It was done before. Nothing that says it can’t be done again.

          After all, states rights……

        • 0 avatar
          Lou_BC

          “The secret of freedom lies in educating people, whereas the secret of tyranny is in keeping them ignorant.”

          or chopping their heads off.

          Once Cheetopotus gets the football, he can fix California and then blame it on tectonic activity.

          • 0 avatar
            28-Cars-Later

            Since Krugman likes the broken window fallacy, perhaps he’d agree a 9.2 courtesy of HAARP on the Bay Area could in fact be very bullish for the economy.

            http://www.aei.org/publication/paul-krugman-a-broken-window-equals-economic-strength/

          • 0 avatar
            FreedMike

            “Once Cheetopotus gets the football, he can fix California and then blame it on tectonic activity.”

            Maybe he’ll take a page from Lex Luthor and call the new beach “Marina Del Trump.”

          • 0 avatar
            highdesertcat

            28-Cars-Later, I believe that the new administration will leave the blue-states blowin’ in the wind.

            Even though NM has a Republican governor, Susana Martinez has not been supportive of Trump.

            So now there is wide-spread fear that NM, along with other blue sanctuary states like CA, NY, et al will be left out in the cold.

            Four years is a long time in economics to be left out in the cold while IL, GA, PA, MI, et al will get all the attention.

          • 0 avatar
            28-Cars-Later

            @FreedMike

            Yes, I like that plan.

            @highdesertcat

            I suspect he will take either Chicago or IL through bankruptcy as the prototype model for other failed munis/states, but I doubt IL will be getting much in the way of praise or reward.

            Regarding general ignorance of those Marxist utopias, I say f**k ’em.

          • 0 avatar
            FreedMike

            28, the fiscal crisis in Illinois is on a statewide level, not in the city of Chicago.

            Primary blame? The usual factors (loss of blue collar jobs and industry, underfunded pensions, etc), plus an unusually bad relationship between the (R) governor and the (D) legislature. Actually, “relationship” kind of overstates matters…it’s more like the president of South Korea and Kim Jong Un looking over the DMZ at each other. It’s that bad.

            Apparently, though, both sides are starting to play nice. We’ll see.

            But without Chicago, Illinois would be well and truly fornicated.

          • 0 avatar
            highdesertcat

            28-Cars-Later,

            “Regarding general ignorance of those Marxist utopias, I say f**k ’em.”

            Succinct and to the point, as always.

            (BTW, the migration southward on US54 was something to behold today. All them illegals heading to Mexico to beat Trump’s eviction Executive Order tomorrow.)

          • 0 avatar
            FreedMike

            There ain’t no such thing as a Marxist utopia on planet earth, HDC…and certainly not in the U.S.

            And as far as Trump doing something substantive about illegals is concerned…I am not sold. He’s going to soon find out that you can’t flip a switch and get rid of these folks. It’ll take an immense amount of time…and God only knows how many hundreds of billions of dollars. We’ll see how he does. My money’s on lots of showy “operations” that don’t change a darn thing.

          • 0 avatar
            28-Cars-Later

            A while back I recall the whole “let debt ridden California secede” thing came up and I actually looked up their 2015? budget. Lo and behold the PRK was actually doing quite well, I think they were up several billion and were funding a rainy day fund to boot which did surprise me. Then I looked up IL and well, the numbers were not pretty. I recall stating at the time something to the effect of, Detroit was the first attempt but IL or Chicago will be the blueprint moving forward.

            Based on what I can remember about the situation, I think someone named Madigan was a big part of the problem and the current governor (Rautner?) was adding gasoline to the fire with some of his behavior. What I’d like to see happen is an actual adult act as empire, everyone responsible for the situation goes to jail (5-10 at Club Med, out in 2 with good behavior), and the state enter federal bankruptcy to nullify all obligations. I would also add as incentive anyone living in the state who wishes to leave can be sent at Fedgov expense to a country of their choosing along with the revocation of US citizenship.

            “But without Chicago, Illinois would be well and truly fornicated”

            I don’t have the background on the situation you have, but I ask how much of the incurred state debt was Cook County related?

            “migration southward on US54 was something to behold today. ”

            Pictures? As we say in the geek business, screen shot it or it didn’t happen.

          • 0 avatar
            highdesertcat

            FreedMike, I think it is the fear of the unknown that’s driving the illegals to vacate the premises.

            Trump won’t be in office until 12p EST tomorrow and already the ca-ca has hit the fan for a lot of people who didn’t see him coming.

            I didn’t see him coming. I didn’t vote for him. Didn’t think he had a snowball’s chance in hell to get elected without divine intervention.

            I was wrong. Divine intervention happened.

            And I would say that because so many people have been emboldened by his election, the next four years will be an era to keep a low profile if you’re a muslim, an illegal alien or a homosexual.

            This is not the time to draw attention.

            And most people are smart enough to know this. Our cook, our gardener, two of our Vaqueros, and their families have departed for South of the Border.

            And we miss them already.

          • 0 avatar
            GeneralMalaise

            A bunch of fraidycat, alarmist nonsense. One could even characterize it as deplorable. After 8 years of nonsense, the half-a-buffoon may prove to be a breath of fresh air.

          • 0 avatar
            FreedMike

            @28:

            My understanding of Illinois politics is based on being from St. Louis, and keeping up with what’s going on “back home,” so it’s limited. But what’s happening in Illinois, far as I can tell, is standard Rust-Belt-In-Decline stuff, complicated by a poisonous political situation.

            And the state has a LOOOOONNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNG history of corruption to boot. Remember the governor with the hairdo who tried to sell Obama’s senate seat? Last in a long, glorious list of incredibly crooked Illinois politicians.

            I’m sure some of the state’s problems are due to Chicago-related spending, but Chicago’s also the state’s key tax generator as well. Without that, what do you have – a bunch of farms and what else – Rockford? Peoria? East St. Louis?

            Lot of the same issues in Missouri as well, but that state’s gone red as hell and appears to be going down the Kansas path. They just elected a governor whose campaign ads showed him literally blowing s**t up with a big-a** rifle. Yee-hah. We’ll see how that works for them.

            All I can say is I’m glad I moved to Colorado…it’s expensive but the politics here are FAR more sane.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            GeneralMalaise – for once, I hope you are right ;)

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            Highdesertcat – “divine intervention” ???

            Is that the new code name for Putin and the KGB?

          • 0 avatar
            28-Cars-Later

            @Freed

            Thanks for the local insight.

            @Lou

            I suspect he is, Lord Trump has already backed off all of the batsh*t crazy stuff much to my dismay. The more I think about it, he wants to, no needs to, have the respect and admiration of the people. This is someone who wants to go down as beloved and thought well of, not someone who wants to absolutely do what is necessary (think Godfather II ending). I will make a prediction, he wants to go out on top and to that end assuming he doesn’t have a major f**kup between now and 2020 he gets reelected but resigns 2 to 3 years in citing health. Thus setting up his VP successor (to succeed or fail is another story) but more importantly setting up for Ivanka after 2028 as the daughter of our beloved president.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            @28 – he definitely is going to have to reel things in. His approval ratings are bad. Newly elected Heads of State traditionally have a Honey Moon period. That hasn’t happened here.
            As you have pointed out, his ego needs the respect of the people. He has picked some bright people and most have stated in their respective hearings that they will chart their own course.

            I don’t think that the swamp will get drained. Rotating the reptiles could be a positive thing.
            I hope that his tenure does more than provide comedians with ample material. He’s made my satirical life much easier.

          • 0 avatar
            28-Cars-Later

            I agree with everything but the polls, we’ve already learned how inaccurate they are and today I read something alleging every Obama approval poll was 8 points off due to some kind of oversampling or something to this effect. I’d say Orange Jesus has 55-60% of the nation behind him at this point and the percentage he does not have is only concentrated in a half dozen regions who hate him with a passion. Short of miracles, he will have a difficult time gaining much approval in those regions IMO and thus won’t concern himself much. Media will only lie to the locals about him in any event, and as we have already seen many citizens are simply brainwashed.

          • 0 avatar
            April

            @Lou_BC
            Don’t give Lex Luther/Donald Trump any ideas. He will buy up land in Nevada and make it ocean front property via selected nuke strikes.

          • 0 avatar
            GeneralMalaise

            Gingerist!!!

          • 0 avatar
            dal20402

            I am a real ginger and I really want Cheeto’s hair color to be fake, to avoid embarrassment on behalf of my fellow firecrotches.

  • avatar
    furiouschads

    Re inaccurate polls: National polls had Hillary winning by 4%, she ended up with 3%.

    I thought it was interesting that polls that had people fill out a form rather than answer a human were more accurate about Trump. People were uncomfortable/ashamed of their true position.

  • avatar
    Fred

    Funny how Texas and California don’t like being told what to do by the Federal government. Of course for different reasons, but shows we are more alike.

  • avatar
    Drzhivago138

    I sure am glad I missed this dumpster fire. What happened to the promise that TTAC would have less politics and would not tolerate personal attacks in the comments?

  • avatar
    Jeff S

    It would be less complicated and more cost effective to agree on Global Standards for emissions, fuel efficiency, and safety standards. Realistically that is not going to happen but in the long run it would save the manufacturers money complying with one set of standards and save buyers money. These standards should have input from automotive engineers as well.

  • avatar
    Jeff S

    Maybe it is impossible but it is worth trying. It costs the manufacturers more to comply with all the different standards but if there were at least Global Standards among the developed countries it would stabilize costs for the manufacturers and ultimately would save the consumer money. Less developed and less prosperous counties would not be subject to these agreed upon Global Standards. Buying more standardized parts that can be shared among different brands and product lines along with sharing Global platforms cuts costs. The auto industry has become more competitive.

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