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TTAC commentator SavageATL writes:
I have a 1991 Cadillac Brougham, the old rear-wheel-drive model. The car was sitting for a long time, and it has a Chevy 305 with bad valve seals. Lesson: beware of low-low-mileage cars.
It smokes badly on startup after sitting and burns a good bit of oil — about one quart every 250 miles. I’ve driven it as-is for a while, but the day is coming when I’ll need to do something about it.
I was told that the heads would need to be replaced to the tune of about $800. I am thinking for that kind of money I can go ahead and swap out the 305 for an LS. I was quoted about $2,750 for a 5.3-liter junkyard LS swap and $3,750 for a 6.0-liter junkyard LS swap, start to finish.
Other than the valve seals, the Cadillac is in excellent shape. I love driving it and plan on keeping it more-or-less indefinitely. I’m considering the swap because if I’m going to spend that kind of money, might as well go to the next step, get more power and better fuel economy.
Question: Is it worth the difference to do the LS swap versus replacing the heads? Which LS engine should I go with? I’ve read the 6.0 has an iron block, is more powerful, and is generally a better engine. What should I ask before having someone start the project?
Sajeev answers:
Did you know that our own Bozi is quite the accomplished LSX-FTW swap artist?
For your question, Bozi will advocate for the swap and my counterpoint will follow in our TTAC town hall debate.
Bozi answers:
The head swap is the easiest route to take since a set of rebuilt 305 heads along with gaskets and bolts should run you right around $450 and labor should be in the $300-400 range.
Swapping to an LS engine will cost more, but will bring with it increased performance and fuel economy. There are quite a few variants of the LS engine. Based on the price you were quoted, I’m assuming both engines you describe are iron block truck motors.
The iron block truck motors are fine for the most part, but I would avoid 1999-2000 6.0-liter LQ4 motors as they were the only ones in the series that had iron heads. Later LQ4 motors are just fine and will produce around 325 horsepower. There is also a higher compression version of this motor called the LQ9, which produced 345 horsepower.
The 5.3-liter LM7 was used from 1999 to 2007 in trucks and vans, and is likely the motors your installer quoted. These are decent motors that make anywhere from 270 horsepower in early trims up 295 horsepower in the later variants. The LM7 is a good motor that can usually be found for $500-600 just about anywhere in the country — but it’s still an iron block.
My preference for the 5.3-liter is the LM4 motor, which is an aluminum block engine. It produces 290 horsepower and can usually be found for about $100 more than its iron-blocked counterparts. The LM4 can be found in:
- 2003–2004 Chevrolet TrailBlazer EXT
- 2003–2004 Isuzu Ascender
- 2003-2004 GMC Envoy XL
- 2003–2004 Chevrolet SSR
- 2004 Buick Rainier
I am not sure what you’re planning to do about a transmission, but your TH200 can bolt up to these motors with a spacer and re-drilled flexplate. If the transmission is serviceable, I believe it should work for most of these 5.3-liter motors in stock trim, but you may end up grenading the gears if you put one of the 6.0-liter motors in front of it thanks to the additional torque.
If you do plan on swapping the transmission, I would use at least a 4L60E for the 5.3-liter variants or a 4L80E for the bigger 6.0-liter motors. These can also be found inexpensively and will give you better fuel economy over the TH200.
I recommend using an OEM-trimmed harness and OEM ECU that’s been reflashed as they will work the best. In your application, you should be able to save some money by using stock F-Body exhaust manifolds. A Hummer H3 oil pan should fit and go around your stock subframe. I also recommend using an alternator relocation bracket from someone like kwikperf.com, which will help you clear your hood and also save you some money since you will not have to buy a custom accessory drive setup.
Your fuel lines should be fine for the swap, but I do recommend swapping for a bigger pump, like the ACDelco EP241, which is inexpensive and should drop right in.
My recommended setup will run you around $1,500-2,000 in parts without a transmission included. Labor adds more cost. You should be right around $4,000 total for an LM4 swap. Adding a 4L60E transmission might run you another $500-700. I recommend asking the installer which engine code he is planning to use and telling him to use one you want. I also recommend checking to see what he plans to do about fueling and engine management.
The LS swap will likely cost you about four times more than swapping the heads. But, if you plan to keep the car, there might be some additional enjoyment and possibly fuel savings to be had.
Sajeev concludes:
I can’t believe I’m saying this, but that’s how debates work: swap the 305 for a LT1 (and a 4L60E?) from a later model B-body General Motors product. And yes, that’s the small-block Chevy LT1, not the new one. They are dirt cheap, even compared to (and mostly because of) the 5.3 LS motors.
I think your bro-ham has the 4L60 and not the 200R4, but either way, the extra power of a motor swap means either might be inadequate over the long term. Buying the entire powertrain from an LT1 land barge means you get a 4L60E that’s a better “core” for a gearbox rebuild. The same person you’ll pepper with Bozi’s questions can do this swap.
As I’ve learned with my Fox Body Fords, restomodding means this crap never ends. Even though the 305 is a boat anchor turd of a motor, maybe the performance is okay considering the cost of LT1 or LSX-FTW.
[Image: Shutterstock user Jackfoto]
Send your queries to [email protected] Spare no details and ask for a speedy resolution if you’re in a hurry…but be realistic, and use your make/model specific forums instead of TTAC for more timely advice.
The car seems to be in good condition from the photo.
Repair the heads, keep the original engine, with time it will ensure the value of the car. There are some folks that have an affinity for those full size Cadillacs.
Swapping the engine will improve the performance and driveability, while depreciating the value of the car.
If it were me, I’d also just do the heads and be done with it. But, if you were going to go to all the trouble and expense of an engine swap, I’d look at doing a new crate engine, it’s not that much more money than is a used engine.
Some folks would suggest you do it yourself, I’m not one of them. Unless you’re fairly experienced at doing heavy mechanical work, an engine swap is a daunting task.
That’s a photo from GM Guy on Ebay, who prices things about 220% more than what they’re worth, and never actually sells anything.
He has nice stuff though.
There is no value here to protect. Time will not make this a collector car – they made too many of them. If it were mine I’d do whatever made me happy. An LM4 swap would do it for me if I liked the car enough to keep it.
Valve seals can be replaced with out removing the heads, if indeed that is really the problem. I had an 1986 305 that that started using oil at 70,000 miles, replacing the valve seals did not help. It turned out the cyls. were badly worn tapered and the rings also worn. I believe a lot of short drives was the culprit.
I was going to say, this could all be turned around much more inexpensively/easily than quoted. Unless the OP is looking for an excuse to hop up his Caddy, I’d say do a complete compression and leakdown test to confirm the valve seal hypothesis. The easy way to determine this in a DIY fashion is to pour a teaspoon of oil down the spark plug hole in each cylinder and then do a normal compression test with a gauge. if the results post-oiling have improved, there’s a good chance your rings (or worse) need attention. If nothing changed then it’s the valves.
Judging by the symptoms and historical data, I’d say the seal hypothesis is correct. if it’s just the seals themselves and not the valve seats or guides then this could be much less expensive that initially thought.
Another path with less rework than the LS swap is an SBC crate motor.
A Goodwrench 350 SBC long block is 1500 bucks at Summit or Jegs.
This.
That ZZ Crate 350 gives you 290hp and a factory warranty out the box.
Or you can ask around and score a good used Vortec 350 for well under $500. I just bought one for my ’99 Suburban for $200, complete including throttle body and coil pack and got an extra bare long block to boot.
I think in twenty years we’ll be thinking of SBCs like we think of flathead Fords now.
As the former owner of an ’84 Monte Carlo SS with the “H.O.” (an additional 5 HP…lolz) 305, I can attest to it’s boat anchor qualities.
Mexico got the good Monte Carlo SS. 350 motor and 4-speed manual.
Come to think of it, they also got the 2.4L Turbo motor in the Dodge Stratus.
Why does Mexico get all the good cars?
A 305 can’t be any more of a boat anchor than an Olds 307. SavageATL should thank his lucky stars he didn’t have one of those.
I was going to make that comment. After the G-body 442 died in 1987 they should have made EVERY Olds 307 a HO version. At least the HO had 180 hp over the low po version with a mighty 140.
But if he had a 307 it would be comparatively easy to swap in an Olds 350 or 403.
Or a 455, as the surprising number of G Cutlasses I’ve found online with 455s would attest to…
I don’t know why Mexico gets all the good cars. Cough! Cough!
Ever been to Mexico City?
Cough! Cough! Hack! Wheeze!
Bozi’s take on the swap was fascinating. It almost makes me want to try it. I say almost, because that is how projects get stalled in the garage and you have park outside all winter while your wife complains about it. I may have been projecting, so never mind.
Your name is so on point.
Wait, I’m confused. The only thing listed as being wrong are bad valve seals. Why do the heads need to be pulled?
Now, I’m all for using some small problem to justify an engine swap (especially if it means getting rid of another awful 305). But, if that’s what we’re doing, let’s be honest about it. If, however, all we’re trying to do is fix the problem economically, then spend $100 on valve seals, valve cover gaskets, a valve spring compressor, and some beer (most of that budget is spent on beer, btw). Invite a buddy over one Saturday and knock it out.
This. If it is valve seals, it’s a cheap and fairly easy job.
I cannot believe how stately and dignified that Cadillac looks. It has the d’Elegance band and the original Moonroof, which works well with wire wheels and Vogues. Visually it could be anywhere from ’81-’91. My sister always insisted on driving these and found many low mileage units once they stopped building them. I used to smugly leave smoke and rubber at her place with my comparatively Hot Rod Lincolns. Damn that spotless example and your proposed upgrade means I could have a burger cruiser with class and sleeper power for a measly $7500. Do those Fleetwoods have rear discs? Why do you always do this to my car budget? Anyone want a ’74 450SL? Or could I fit an LS in that car, too?
Sealed headlamps means it’s a 1990-1992 only. :)
I find the Vogues and wire wheels distracting and unsuitable for that particular car.
I don’t think those are Vogue tires, and the wheels actually appear to be stock…so its’ pimp hand was strong right from day one.
http://www.automobile-catalog.com/photo/1992/1497350/73954.html
Those are the RARE true wire wheels that were available from the factory. I have no shame in saying that I lusted after a Fleetwood built that way the entire time they were in production. Of course I wanted the 350 V8 and towing package.
Ugh, I just hate the spokes. Much prefer a nice wheel cover or full moon alloy or what have you. Can’t believe they’re OEM.
Believe it, the Brougham was the Last Gasp of Superfly.
Last gap of Cadillac.
You can’t choose to have just some of the Broughams. Especially not on one of these, which is the ultimate container of Broughams ever built.
Those wheels are a highly desirable option on that car. The only false, non-Broughamish note is the red pinstripe, easily removed.
BEHOLD THE POWER OF BROUGHAM!
The beacon of Brougham is so bright! I need some gold frame Porsche aviators.
C’mon, son. Are you really going to throw away a perfectly good SBC for bad valve seals? My ’60 Nomad smoked like a mosquito fogger when I bought it so I pretty much planned an LSX-FTW swap from the get-go. But it had darn near perfect compression across all 8 cylinders so before yanking it out I swapped the ancient valve stem seals with a set of positive lock seals from a later engine. I used the compressed air / heads in place approach which worked really well. Took maybe half a Saturday, working slow and setting all the valve clearances, etc.
Long story short that little 283 is still rocking and rolling and has gotten us to and from Bryce Canyon, Disneyland, the CA Redwoods, and plenty of places in between. If your shop won’t do valve seals without pulling the heads find a better shop.
I would pay money to see a 1960 Chevrolet wagon parked in Walt’s sacred parking lot. Even a four door Nomad. Huge applause to you for keeping it on the road.
The Nomad just hung out at the Residence Inn while we went to the park.
Is a 305 of this vintage ever a “perfectly good” SBC?
Well, the 305 TPIs used in the F-body of this era was okay and made 200-230hp and 275-300lb-ft depending on the application.
I also have a personal soft-spot for the 190hp HO 4bbl 305, but that engine is rare and totally unsuitable for Cadillac duty.
FWIW, I don’t think the TBI 305 is really any worse than the Olds 307, Mopar 318, or regular-output Ford 302 that it usually competed with.
The fact that the Panther 302 only made 150 horsepower even with sequential fuel injection stuns me. That’s 10 less horsepower than my 3.1 pushrod V6 Buick had.
The fact that the Panther 302 only made 150 horsepower…
Still kicks the standard issue Olds 307 Quadrajunk square in the testicles when it comes to hp and driveability.
“Stately and dignified…” two things that just about every current Cadillac is not. This Brougham (even when/if repaired) may be dead-dog slow but just LOOK at that thing. From across a parking lot anybody can tell you what it is.
I remember coming to the US when I was 15 and being carted around in a friend’s grandmother’s Cadillac Seville (second gen, with the bustle-back trunk) and thought I was “somebody” for being driven around in that. The seats alone did a remarkable impression of a nice, comfy couch. Not sure Caddy deciding to attempt to “out BMW” BMW was the right approach to take…
Best of luck in whichever approach is taken to keep this on the road.
Yeah how much cheaper would a 300 hp old school Corvette LT1 from say 1996 or so?
But I do dig the idea of giving this old sled some get-up-and-go to match its good looks.
Couple days ago, I watched the David Letterman episode of Jerry Seinfeld’s Comedians and Coffee show – and they were in a ’95 960 Estate, with a supercharger and Mustang 5-speed! And it was built by Paul Newman!
OMGZ
Probably had the “5.0” Mustang engine too. Those swaps were popular a while back. Before my divorce, I owned a ’92 740 wagon in refrigerator white, and lusted for just that setup. The supercharger would have been icing on the cake.
Alas, the insane (and now convicted felon!) ex ended up having it towed away and donated to Goodwill before I could lay claim to it in court. Damn shame.
http://thethrottle.com/2011/01/09/5-0-v8-in-volvo-conversion-goes-better-than-expected-27-photos/
I understood that Letterman sold off a V8 Volvo that he felt was too fast to be driven by him.
When I was a teen I would look at the advertisements for “JTR” (Jaguars that Run) and fantasize about the V8 conversion manuals they sold for a host of vehicles.
I think that was the Newman Volvo on Chasing Classic Cars a couple seasons ago. David Letterman bought it?
What a sleeper.
Letterman was the original owner of that Volvo, as he says in the episode that Newman called him personally to ask if he would like one.
Letterman was intimidated on the phone, and said yes!
So that’d be the one he probably sold, as the episode was from late 2012 or early 2013, the first episode of season 2 of Comedians Cars Coffee.
He did mention it broke down a lot.
The “Gen 2” LT1 is crap for engine swaps, and is bad advice from Sanjeev. Bad Sanjeev! It has a reverse plumbed cooling system and the notoriously failure prone Optispark distributor, both of which complicate things over an older Gen 1.
If you’re going to go through the time / effort / expense of a swap go all the way to LSX/FTW. Otherwise stick with a roller cam Gen 1 350 and upgrade to your hearts content – performance cam, bore and stroke it, Vortec heads. Might be a bit much for something so brougham-y though.
The optispark. My old enemy. Evil distributor hiding beneath a water pump.
The 350 swap mentioned isn’t really a conversion, and bolts right up to everything. It seems the best way to go. Then swap out the rear end gears, plus limited-slip for more performance.
The engine has throttle body injection on it – are you suggesting that he can just increase the displacement without any modifications to the engine controls?
At the very least (keeping things stock), I would want to swap in a 350 CID ECM and possibly fuel injector (if it is larger than the one used on the 305).
Actually the real difference between a 305 and 350 TBI system is the size of the injectors and swapping them is the only thing you have to do. While you are at though replacing the chip in the ECU with a performance tuned version wouldn’t be a bad idea.
You would need 350 injectors, 350 ECU and 350 knock sensor. Fairly common swap, with info, tips (and parts) everywhere I’m sure.
The 350 ECU is no different than the one used on the 305 or 4.3, for that matter, the only difference is the chip. The programing in the 350 chip isn’t enough different than the 305 chip, assuming they are from similar years. The big thing they did to make it fuel the larger engine are the larger injectors.
If you are changing the knock sensor then you need to make sure you swap the ESC too as they are paired.
You are correct on the chip, but I did run mine with just the big injectors on the 305 chip and it didn’t run well.
I have done this swap on a TBI 305 equipped 91 Caprice. The replacement was a Roadmaster 350. Yes, other than the motor I swapped to the 350 injectors (there are only 2 and like everything else on the TBI motor are cheap) and a junkyard 91 Roadmaster ECU. That was it. I did swap the fan shroud but that was because I wanted the emission sticker to show 5.7 instead of 5.0 because I am a little OCD sometimes.
TASTY
There are children dying from hunger. Donate. Feel good about it with your current engine. Nobody will give a damn if the Caddy outaccelerates a Camry.
There are children dying from hunger.
Don’t buy a new car.
Don’t buy a new house.
Don’t buy new clothes.
Don’t eat.
Don’t sleep.
Don’t breathe.
I hope you feel plenty guilty for your privilege of breathing and sleeping. You should feel that guilt until every single person across the globe has the same raw potato and dirt floor life.
Um, I will.
I’ve always wanted to build a fast Caprice with GN all black everything, so I support your LSX-FTW plans!
Keeping with the idea that the stock 305 is a low-miler (we’ll guess under 50,000 miles for this thought experiment) then perhaps a valve job is in order. Since changing the seals is sort of like rebuilding the top half of the engine, if the writer can find Vortec 305 heads the engine would breathe better than with that throttle-body (I think Vortec engines also had an advanced cam).
I’m guessing that car had a 2.56 rear end, so without touching that, all the extra power from an engine swap isn’t going to transfer effectively to the pavement.
There’s really no reason to spend a lot on a 305.
Changing the seals is not at all like rebuilding the top half of the engine!
You remove the valve cover, put the piston at TDC, use a valve spring compressor to remove the spring and keepers, remove and replace the seal, and reinstall the spring and keepers. Rinse and repeat for the other fifteen valves, always making sure that the piston is at TDC in the cylinder that you are working on so the valve doesn’t fall into the cylinder.
You can do it in a couple of hours in the driveway.
Putting the engine at TDC won’t keep the valves closed by itself. They will drop down enough that the spring compressor won’t compress the springs enough to get the keepers back in place. You need to stuff the cylinder with something, usually a soft rope. Otherwise you want the cylinder at BDC and an adapter connected to a compressor to keep the valves closed.
Yes, I should’ve kept consistent my usage of “valve job”.
Sajeev, I’m so glad you posted this question. I have ’91 Brougham which is, for the moment, in excellent condition. It’s my daily driver (on sunny days… which is most days where I live), so I’m constantly reminded that my car is powered by a drowsy turtle. I’m bookmarking this page, and the moment the engine gives a whiff of trouble, the 305 will be swapped for something that makes on-ramps less terrifying.
(Btw, you’re right about the transmission: 1991 & 1992 used the 4L60; it came along with the 305 in those years. The 200R4 was paired with the carbureted 307 that preceded the fuel injected 305.)
As others have mentioned there is no need to remove the head to replace the valve seals in a SBC and the job can be done for way less than replacing the heads.
The first step would be to do a compression check and as long as that doesn’t reveal low compression across all of the cylinder or a bad one or two then just replace the seals on the car.
An alternative to the fitting and compressor to keep the valves open while you do the job is a piece of nylon rope. Position the cylinder on the compression stroke feed a length of rope into the cyl through the spark plug hole, making sure to leave a good chunk hanging out. Then turn the engine to compress the rope against the valves.
Alternatively find a mechanic that is ~50 years old and they will have done this job or replacing a broken valve spring on the car a number of times.
Finish the job with a proper valve adjustment, ie one with the engine hot and running, that again that ~50 year old mechanic will have done more times than he can count (or remember).
Under $100 if you do it your self and buy the spring compressor, rope ect, or under $300 if you find someone that has done it a couple of dozen times.
How about an OG 350? Since that one was actually an OEM choice in these cars…
there is this:
https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/668117341/overview/?aff=criteo&BAC=criteolf91814
I love these cars. Someday I want one, or a Ninety-Eight Regency. Anyhow, I would swap heads and be done with it. It is slow yes, but the thing about these cars is the quiet and smooth, leisurely driving experience. If you are in a hurry its the wrong car for the job.
Not that I don’t fancy the styling on the Ninety Eight Regency, but assuming you’re talking the FWD one – this Caddy is a much more sturdy and robust car.
CT-wut?…I almost fainted when I saw the pic of that Brougham. I think that refresh at the end of that generation looked damned good, especially the clear tail lamps. And that particular color combo looks rather stately. I know they were just as plasticky as a Town Car of that era but they always seemed more “special.”
I think we have Piston Slap of the year here.
I had a similar situation with a 91 Caprice…Low mileage and had sat for a while. The valve stem seals are easy so long as you have an air compressor. You just hook the end of a compression checker to the air hose, screw it into the plug hole and pressurize the cylinder. That keeps the valves closed. I did it in my driveway and it was an easy fix.
I had the typical symptoms of bad valve stem seals…a little smoke on start up and then a little use of oil. Then my oil consumption jumped to the level you are describing. I figured I should do the seals at that time. They were bad but I felt quart every 250 miles seems excessive for just the umbrella seals. I was right.
These engines have another issue that crops up…broken ring lands on the piston. That is what was causing the excessive consumption on mine. I ended up swapping in a TBI350 from a roadmaster. As mentioned earlier you need the chip from the ECU and the injectors. Ran great, but if I had it to do over again I’d have probably done it a little differently because the TBI350 was really no quicker than the 305.
Writing a custom tune to the chip is easy. Several places online would datalog and do it and a local shop could likely help. In light of that I’d have gone with the stock TBI set up but run vortec heads and the required aftermarket intake. A friend ran this in an F-Body and it really woke it up and was pretty easy. You will have to tune it but everything was bolt in so no screwing with the wiring and stuff. This set up should let you up the power without having to rewire. These heads will bolt on but you need a specifiv intake. They run 3-400 bucks IIRC.
I don’t know how to add a picture, or I would, but mine is blue with no moonroof, which I would have liked, and wire wheel covers and not the actual wire wheels. Otherwise it looks like that but not as showroom fresh. Perhaps 75% of it.
I really am not 100% sure it’s valve seals; I was told that a few months ago, so that could be true, or it might not be true. I don’t want to spend $800 on getting that done and either be unhappy with it and think, I coulda had an LS or find out something else craps out fairly quickly and I’m back to the beginning. To me it seems better to spend more money all at once and get something better. The 305 has TBI not injectors and isn’t – – – it’s not TERRIBLY slow but it’s not zippy either, and why not get something zippy?
I am not going to 350 because:
Those engines are just as old as the engine that is in there so how do I know it will be any better.
If I’m going to spend all this money I want to get the absolute best, not spend half of what I could and get a quarter of what I want and then in 6 months or a year something else goes wrong and I have to throw more money at it.
An LS will run further, give much more power, and better mileage than a 350 and I drive 750-1000 miles in a week. This better get – well, as good as I can get mileage. I intend for this to be my primary car.
Yes, I am going to throw away a SBC of unknown quality for suspected bad valve seals rather than deal with whatever else might be wrong with it. SBCs are not exactly rare.
I always thought these had a 700R4 Transmission rather than a 200R4 but y’all know better than I do. I know for a fact it is not a 4L60E cos it sure is not electronically controlled and still has all the cable and however those shift points work.
I had heard the iron block 6.0s were better and less fragile engines than the 5.3s but thanks for all the help! I will let y’all know how it goes. I will ask for an LQ4 and 4L80 transmission.
But why the $800 quote? Multiple folks have mentioned it being a simple non-head-off job that a DIYer could tackle in an afternoon, or at any old shop could do it for just a few hundred bucks. And if you just do a compression test beforehand, you can more or less mitigate the risk of throwing that bit of money at the motor that potentially has plenty of life left in it. Again, if you’re looking for an excuse to upgrade then by all means, go nuts! But the “fix-it/frugal” guy inside me is screaming.
Isn’t anyone going to suggest a proper Cadillac engine; maybe a 472, 500 or 425? Just use a properly baffled air cleaner assembly, a TH400, and you’ll experience real GM luxury unsullied by CAFE.
Northstar?
I am kidding BTW…I realize you can’t see the sarcasm in the post.
Try “/s” next time.
Or a 368? I have no idea if they are any good. Doubt it, compared to an LS.
LM4! Sure not as sexy as the larger displacement LS motors but they are plenty stout and cheap to replace!
They use these things in stock motor classes and use copious amounts of power adder to run 10 and 9 second times.
I took my driver’s test in mom’s ’81. The brakes were a fiction and the steering was like my first girlfriend– (One finger only). Butterscotch leather and Copper with the lamentable 4-6-8, which promptly shit the bed shortly thereafter. I didn’t care much then, but I want one now.
I don’t do carbs; that’s why I have ’91s (this is my second one) with the TBI 305 rather than the really really slow and finicky 307 with the stupid electronic carb. So that’s why I would not 468 or 425 or 368.