Disabling ABS to Drive in The Snow Is An 'Extremely Bad Idea'

ABS can benefit almost everyone. Even F1 cars would have it if they could. It's just not ideal for every situation. We're going to need to escort you out this time. Gather your things.

@rpn453 "ABS can benefit almost everyone. Even F1 cars would have it if they could. It’s just not ideal for every situation." The same thing has been said about seat belts and airbags, but they're not considered optional devices - and for good reason.

@hybridkiller A driver can analyze the road conditions and determine when ABS is inappropriate. He would not be able to predict the outcome of a collision. Is that simple enough for you to understand? Of course, with ABS we're arguing about a technology that hasn't been statistically proven to have much, if any, safety benefit anyway. That's why this article only included a statistical reference to the safety benefits of ESC - labelled as "traction control" by the ignorant author - rather than ABS itself. For ABS, there is none. Both the European Commission and NHTSA have determined it to be of questionable benefit. While ABS has demonstrated a zero net effect to fatal collisions overall, NHTSA actually found that it has negative effects in adverse conditions. It increased fatal run-off-road crashes in wet, snowy, or icy conditions by 34%, while providing only a 12% decrease in fatal multi-vehicle collisions in those conditions. ABS decreased fatal collisions with pedestrians, cyclists, and animals in dry conditions, but actually increased those fatal collisions in adverse conditions. http://ec.europa.eu/transport/road_safety/specialist/knowledge/esave/esafety_measures_known_safety_effects/anti_lock_braking_systems_in_cars_abs_en.htm http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/811182.PDF Now, if you could disable the airbags before launching off a Texas gate in a rental car, that would be a good feature.

@rpn453 You conveniently cherry-picked a single data point out of a rather extensive report. Taken as a whole, the advantages significantly outweigh the disadvantages. From the NHTSA report: "This report concludes that four-wheel ABS has essentially zero net effect on fatal crashes, but significantly reduces nonfatal crash involvements." "The combined effect (ABS + ESC) is always a substantial fatality reduction." If you really believe it's a good idea to give average drivers the ability to defeat ABS (you know, the vast majority who aren't super-awesome experts like yourself), then no amount of consensus data is going to change your mind.

@rpn453 Yes, the NHTSA study shows a small reduction in overall crash rates with ABS, with no reduction in fatalities. Yet there was still an increase in fatalities in adverse conditions with ABS, despite the overall reduction in collisions in those situations. That "adverse conditions" data is probably even skewed in favor of ABS, since it includes wet conditions, where ABS actually is advantageous. And the European Commission hasn't seen any benefit: "However, while injury crashes decrease (-5%), fatal crashes increase (+6%). A recent study, however, indicates that anti-lock brakes may not contribute to crash prevention at all." So I stand by my statement that ABS "hasn't been statistically proven to have much, if any, safety benefit".

I question your reading comprehension if that's what you discerned from this thread. The statistics don't differentiate by skill level. ABS has not been proven to be beneficial in adverse conditions for anyone. It's okay to admit that basic car control is scary to you. Hopefully they'll continue to invent more electronic things so you don't have to be capable of controlling mechanical things that simply do what they're told.

@rpn453 "It’s okay to admit that basic car control is scary to you. Hopefully they’ll continue to invent more electronic things so you don’t have to be capable of controlling mechanical things that simply do what they’re told." The level of condescending arrogance in that remark is nothing short of breathtaking. Wow...

@hybridkiller Yes, I'm fully competitive with you and Power6 in that regard. The difference is that I'll say it directly because I haven't been feminized.

@rpn453 "I’ll say it directly because I haven’t been feminized." There you have it.......... testosterone trumps technology

@rpn: Are you here to have a conversation, or are you here just to insult people?

You know, there is a possibility that ABS is in some ways actually causing more crashes, especially fatal ones, through driver overconfidence that the brakes will prevent them from hitting another vehicle, person, etc. Because these early nannies helped create a sense of overconfidence, more nannies are needed to force the car to brake sooner just to remain at a relatively safe distance from the vehicle in front. Essentially, it is because of all these piecemeal nannies that we are being pushed closer and closer to self-driving cars that simply won't let you take control. Then where will we be?

@Vulpine - it has been discussed several times the fact that people are horrifically poor judges of risk. Anything that increases a person's false sense of safety has a similar effect on the increase in risk. Overconfidence applies to more than just the brakes. It also happens with road upgrades. I recall some local roads and highways that were narrow, had tons of sharp corners and lots of hills. You would of thought that they were built by a drunken cat operator. They got upgraded and straightened out and the big hills knocked down and the end result? More fatalities. Why? Everyone relaxed and stopped paying attention along with driving faster. Another contributor is the disconnect between driver and machine. In the "good ol' days" there was a reason why it was called "arm strong steering". Manual transmissions were the norm and brakes needed a heavy foot and a lot of advanced warning. As vehicles have become "modernized" we have seen a disconnect from the driver and the abilities of the vehicle. Driving is TOO EASY or at least that is what people think. MANY have no clue how their vehicle interacts with the road. It is easy to blame the safety devices but in the end a good driver knows what his/her machine will do in almost every situation. That applies equally to steering as it does to ABS and traction/stability control. I know for the most part when my truck's nannies are helpful and when they are going to get in the way. I drive with that in mind. I DID learn that via experience and in a many cases by "fooling around" in situations where I learn the limits of my machine safely. Statistically 1/3 of drivers should not have a licence and roughly 60% are just fair to average. My dad used to say that the secret to driving is to allow yourself enough room to compensate for other's mistakes and to allow room for your own. Most fatalities, injuries and property damage occur because of that. If you don't allow time for you or others to compensate, nothing is going to save one's sorry ass.

@Lou_BC I'll agree with every word, Lou. And as I said, the day will come when nobody is allowed to drive their own vehicle on the roads. If people want to drive like idiots, they can drive on the race track. If they want to drive their 4x4s, it will be out in the open desert or un-mapped roads and certified off-road parks. That's not the way I want it, but that's the way it will be not just in the US, but nearly every "civilized" nation. Each will likely have its own rules, but they'll choose to do it that way to reduce risk on the roads and very probably have other advantages as well.

@Vulpine "Then where will we be?" Doing more enjoyable and rewarding things with the time we currently spend commuting or sitting in traffic? Less likely to be injured or killed in due to driver error? Able to increase the autonomy and self-reliance of anybody who is elderly, disabled, or otherwise physically unable to safely operate a car today? Still able to have all the fun you want on closed-course racetracks and ORV areas, which are way more fun than the street anyway? You're right, it sounds terrible.

@bikegoesbaa I like you, Bikes; because that's almost exactly why we're going there. I fear for my 90-year-old mother every time she has to drive but she refuses to move from the house she's lived in for 50 years and her husband died back in July. She's got the advantage of some great neighbors but they have their own lives to live and can't spend their time taking care of a literal 'little old lady'.

@rpn453 I was just giving them what they asked for. It was a disrespectful article that began by mocking those with enough winter driving experience to know that ABS can function poorly in the snow. I'm actually glad to see that you guys dragged it out of the ditch since I was last here. I apologize for being intentionally abrasive in my original post, but nothing else. Oh well, it inspired me to put my thoughts down for my buddy's website and further our agenda to have everyone on good winter tires so that salt and gravel no longer need to exist on the roads! http://www.skstuds.ca/2016/01/28/how-abs-makes-bad-tires-worse/