By on April 2, 2015

camry xse

In today’s installment, we’ll examine the lineups of the big Japanese three: Nissan, Honda, and Toyota, as well as their luxury variants. I should have said this in the first installment, but never let it be said that I am above admitting mistakes, so let me say it now: I never had plans to comment on every single model from every single manufacturer—just the ones that stand out to me in some way, or ones that I have about which I might have a contrary opinion. If I don’t mention a model, it’s likely because I haven’t driven it, or I don’t have an opinion about it that is in any way meaningful or insightful.

Since we’ve already established the format in the first and second installments of this series, let’s just jump right into it, shall we?

NISSAN

The Good:

Nissan continues to own the B segment in the States with the Versa and Versa Note. It’s spacious (as people reminded me when I reviewed the Rogue Select recently), it’s inexpensive, gets good gas mileage, and it has a decent reliability record. What else do you expect at this price point?

The Leaf is really much better to drive than you’d expect, and I totally dig the quirky looks of it. Since I spend a fair amount of time in Atlanta, I’ve gotten pretty used to the idea of the Leaf, and I’d definitely consider leasing one if I lived there due to the massive tax subsidies available. If you don’t live somewhere that the Focus EV  or Spark EV is available, and you’re not prepared to go Full Tesla, then the Leaf is for you.

The Not-As-Good:

I’ve always loved the Z. There was a time, when the 370Z was launched in 2009, that only an idiot would consider anything but the Z in this price range. But this iteration is getting a bit long in the tooth, and the pony cars have caught and surpassed it. The version you really want is the Sport trim, and with an MSRP of around $34K, can you really make a case for it over a Mustang GT? I don’t think so.

The Altima isn’t bad. It’s competent. It’s adequate. I could go to thesaurus.com and find some other words to describe just how ambivalent I am about it, but I think you’ve got the point by now. It’s not as good as the Mazda6, the Fusion, the Accord, or the Camry, and it’s probably better than the Malibu and the Sonata. I think that means it fits here. I certainly never pick one on purpose on rental row, but I don’t get upset if it’s all that’s available.

The GT-R has served its purpose for Nissan, despite what our former EIC had to say about it all those years ago. It’s been a good halo car. It’s had a few refreshes over the years so that it doesn’t seem as old as it actually is. I just don’t dig it. It seems like it’s the dream car of teenagers and twentysomethings, but by the time they grow up enough to buy one, they’ve also grown up enough to move on to either the 991 or the Viper/Corvette. Nevertheless, it is a technological marvel, and Nissan should be commended for being the only Japanese automaker to currently have a genuine supercar in the lineup.

The Ugly:

I’m just gonna go ahead and leave INFINITI here. The brand needs a complete reboot—or a complete execution. They have exactly one car in the top 100 in 2015 YTD sales—the Q50 sneaks in at #96—and their naming convention is so odd that I have no problem admitting that I have no idea what car people are talking about anymore when they mention an Infiniti. It would have been nice of Johan de Nysschen to turn the lights out when he left.

The Rogue Select goes here, too. I haven’t driven a newer Rogue yet, so I’ll reserve judgment.

Sometimes I forget that Nissan makes the Sentra. I find it to be the least attractive, least compelling vehicle of anything in the C segment. Where the Altima is knocking on the door of the Camry for top-seller in its segment, the Sentra languishes behind not only the Corolla, but also the Civic, the Cruze, and the Focus. I can’t imagine why anybody buys this car.

HONDA

The Good:

The Accord…what can you say? It’s the Accord. It’s the Ohio State of cars—it might have its haters, but it’s consistently good every single year. It’s the last of it’s kind to keep offering a two-door variant. It’s a good car. I got nothin’ else.

The MDX/Pilot. I might be one of the few people who’s towed a race car with a Pilot across the country. It always demonstrated great gas mileage, a comfortable ride, enough storage space for eight wheels and tires and tools, and it was reliable as the sun. No complaints here.

The Fit—it’s #fitforyou! I think it’s too expensive for what it is, and I wouldn’t even consider buying one over something like, oh, I don’t know, a FIESTA ST, but it suits the needs of lots of people perfectly. In all seriousness, it really is pretty good. Why no performance variant though?

In the most competitive segment in today’s marketplace, Honda has a clear winner—the CR-V. It’s pretty hard to believe that it outsells both the Civic and the Accord, but it does. Welcome to 2015! The CR-V has a long tradition of being a reliable, smart decision—nobody will mock you at the PTA meeting for buying one. With the small CUV becoming the new mid-size sedan, it makes sense that the CR-V is as popular as it is.

The Not-As-Good:

What the hell has happened to the Civic? It’s too big, it’s too bloated, it’s too boring. I respect Honda’s decision to react quickly in regards to the Civic after the relative disaster of the 2012 Civic, but for those of us who remember what the Civic (specifically the SI) used to be, the modern Civic is just okay. I can guarantee you that Toretto’s gang wouldn’t be using Civics to rob semis anymore.

The Ugly:

The Crosstour. No, I mean, it’s literally ugly. I know it’s just an Accord, but what can I say—I’m superficial.

If there was ever a car that needed to be completely re-imagined, it’s the CR-Z. Poorly conceived, poorly designed, and poorly executed. It’s neither economical nor sporty—so what would you say ya do here, CR-Z?  It’s a travesty.

But, to me, the ugliest part about Honda is that the company has completely abandoned its enthusiast base. The company that used to make the Integra Type-R and the S2000 feels like just another appliance maker now. You can feel it when you’re in a Honda store, as I often am. There’s no passion, there’s no excitement. The showrooms feel like mausoleums. You know what Honda needs? A Fit SI. Get the kids excited about the brand again. Create some future Honda enthusiasts.

TOYOTA

The Good:

Maybe there’s something in the water around here, because I used to hate the Camry and everything that it stood for. After a few dozen track laps in a four-cylinder SE, I kinda like it. Of all the mid-sizers, the Camry is definitely to most rewarding to drive. It wouldn’t be my first pick in the segment, but it would definitely be in my top three. That’s good enough to get it up here.

The IS350 is the one car that has a legitimate potential claim to the throne that the 3-Series has owned for decades. I was fortunate enough to drive the F-Sport variant from San Diego to Beverly Hills last October, and it’s hard to think of a car that I would have rather made the trip in. If you don’t like the new 3-Series, the IS might just be for you.

Do you know how you  know you’ve made it as a mom at my son’s school? You have a Swagger Wagon. The Sienna is the top choice of non-working women everywhere. Unfortunately, it can slide into the high $30K range pretty quickly once you start optioning it up into AWD V6 trim.

I struggle with where I should place the RX. It’s been wildly successful (has any platform ever made into as many top sellers as the Camry?). It’s overpriced. It’s largely loved by people who hate cars. But…it’s virtually unkillable. I see RX 300s everywhere, still effortlessly plugging along, well into six figures of life. By that measurement, it belongs in the “Good” category.

The Not-As-Good

The Corolla…well, it’s just a Corolla. I personally can’t get excited about it, but is it a good car? It’s not a bad one. That means it goes here.

I got the chance to go to the launch of the Highlander last year, and it’s pretty Highlanderish. I said this at the time: “This new Highlander will do nothing to keep satisfied Highlander drivers from buying another one, and will do a lot to convince happy owners of competitors to take a look. That is, assuming, they can get past that ugly grille.” That’s still true. It’s not great. It’s not terrible. It goes here.

The Avalon is boring, yes, but in the segment of full-sized FWD sedans, you could do worse…well, you couldn’t do much worse. But you could buy a Taurus. That would be worse.

The Ugly:

The Yaris just needs to be discontinued—it’s not competitive in any way, shape, or form. It’s truly amazing to see how well the Camry and Corolla sell, and yet the Yaris just languishes. It goes to show that the Toyota name only goes so far.

Guess what? I don’t like the FR-S, either. But this gives me a great opportunity to reply to those who questioned my placement of the BRZ in the “Ugly” category.

  • The BRZ/FR-S has plenty of competitors, most obviously the EcoBoost Mustang, the MX-5, GTI, Focus ST, WRX…pretty much any performance-oriented vehicle under $30k is a real-world competitor of the Toyaburu twins. It doesn’t have to be a rear-wheel drive coupe to be cross-shopped with them.
  • Yes, I think the BRZ is underpowered, but that’s not my main complaint with it. Remember, I owned an RX-8. I am the proud lessee of a Fiesta ST. Cars can still be low-powered and fun—this just isn’t one of them.
  • Between the two models, they’ll be lucky to sell 20k of them this year. It’s not destined to be with us for much longer.

That being said, it’s a commendable effort. All they needed to do to make it good was offer an F Sport FR-S, or something. I’m hardly the first person on the internet to suggest a turbocharged version. Just a mild boost in power—maybe 260 HP—would be perfect.

N/A:

I’d really love to tell you what I think about the RC, but I haven’t driven one. Sad face.

 

All righty—one more installment to go. We’ll cover the Big Three next. Thanks for reading!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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108 Comments on “Bark’s Bites: The Good, The Not-As-Good, and The Ugly: Part Three...”


  • avatar
    Zackman

    I’m impressed with the Camry after all these years of being a Toyota-hater. We had a nice, red rental Camry SE in Florida last fall and I have to admit the thought of actually owning one crossed my mind briefly.

    The Corolla? We examined the new style at out auto show last year – we didn’t go this year due to weather – but I liked the roominess of the car and it felt pretty good sitting in it. Haven’t driven one, yet.

    Civic? A friend has one. He let me drive it and I was impressed. Trouble is, it’s ugly.

    What really aggravates me about the Corolla and Civic is that they don’t have bright window reveal, just ugly black glass frames, which if not bright-trimmed should at least be body color. Plain satin black? Nowadays? You have got to be kidding me!

    Believe it or not, I will be checking out the Corolla & Civic over the weekend, as I’m perusing a near-future replacement for my 2012 Impala before I retire, because if I keep the Impala which has 64K miles on it now, and our 2002 CR-V has 119K, both cars will be pretty long in the tooth in two years. Also, I won’t need a big highway cruiser anymore, and down-sizing fits into our future plans, plus a smaller (and shorter) car leaves more room in the garage because the Impala’s front bumper is pretty close to the workbench!

    I’m also going to consider a Malibu because it’s a Chevy AND has proper bright window reveal.

    Yes – for the record, bright window reveal REALLY matters to me! I’m like a moth – I gravitate toward bright objects! It’s all about my style.

    Anyway, those are my thoughts nobody asked for, FWIW…

  • avatar
    PeterKK

    Yeah HUGE amen on the CR-Z. It’s a shame.

    • 0 avatar
      energetik9

      Instead of a Civic Si update, the CR-Z was just a DelSol update.

      • 0 avatar
        CoreyDL

        I don’t think so, the Del Sol was popular too.

        • 0 avatar
          energetik9

          Popular or not, I have no idea.

          But like the CR-Z, the Del Sol was a car that did a great job at being average and didn’t quite live up to the charge of being the CRX successor (I didn’t mean to reference a Civic Si before….my bad). I still remember a quote from some car magazine discussing the Del Sol, “Despite what Honda wants you to believe, the Del Sol is no sports car”.

          • 0 avatar
            CoreyDL

            Did they honestly sell it as the CRX successor? Or as extra sporty or something? I’m not sure you’re recalling this correctly.

            I recall the ads – they were always about taking the roof off and being at the beach.

          • 0 avatar
            energetik9

            You may be right. I might be reading this more based on what auto magazines said versus what Handa was advertising.

          • 0 avatar
            energetik9

            Sorry, obviously Honda, not Handa. Typing too fast….

          • 0 avatar
            r129

            The Civic del Sol was known as the “CR-X del Sol” outside of the US market, shortened to just “CRX” in Europe for 1995, while ours was shortened to just “del Sol.”

          • 0 avatar
            threeer

            My first wife and I owned a new Del Sol back in 1992. We never thought of it as a “sports” car, especially true given she could not drive a manual and we bought one with an automatic. Was it as fun as my sister’s 1989 CRX Si? Not even close. But for what it was, we enjoyed the heck out of it. Top was easy to remove and I loved the rear sliding glass. Maybe more “mini cruiser” than sports car, sure…but I wouldn’t sneeze at finding an old Si Del Sol with manual just for giggles.

  • avatar
    turf3

    Does Honda still have the hair-trigger throttle that takes you from sitting still to snapping forward in about 0.01 mm of travel? That queered the deal for me twice over approx. 10 years. Until they recalibrate their throttles, I will not buy a car that makes a production out of every time you leave a stoplight.

  • avatar
    EMedPA

    For the life of me, I cannot understand why Honda saddles the Fit with such a short top gear. A pretty significant part of my commute is spent on the highway, and the thought of having the engine screaming at 3500 RPM does not fill me with joy. Darned shame: otherwise it would be a great commuter car/runabout.

  • avatar
    Nicholas Weaver

    One more in the “good” category, that is neglected in this list: The Prius.

    The Prius is slow and bland to drive, but its not for enthusiasts. I will NEVER willingly buy one. NEVER. I could have gotten one for FREE from my parents (trading them the Mazda I don’t use much for their older Prius) and I won’t do it. No. No Way. No Way In Hell.

    But the Prius is not for me.

    The Prius is rather the ultimate appliance car: Dead solid reliable, very efficient and space efficient (Hatchback FTW), quiet, efficient, and inexpensive. It is, indeed, the perfect car for people who don’t actually like cars, which is, to be honest, 80% of the market.

    And did I say inexpensive? Yes.

    If you are the kind of person who buys a car and drives it for 150k+ miles and then sells it 10 years later, the Prius ends up having one of the lowest cost of ownership ever, between the reliability, the great fuel economy, that you practically never need to replace brakes and use ultra-long-lived low rolling resistance tires, and they hold their value well.

    • 0 avatar
      ijbrekke

      As far as I’m concerned it’s the new Camry/Corolla in every respect.

    • 0 avatar
      gtemnykh

      Agree 100%, and now’s the time to pick one up with decent cash on the hood, what with low gas prices and American consumers’ memory span of a goldfish :)

      I rather enjoyed the one I had as a rental. For something to just plug 72mph into cruise control and to get to where I need to be an hour and change later on a straight and flat interstate, it’s very competent indeed. I got an average of 47 mpg this way in cool rainy weather, without hypermiling or anything.

      • 0 avatar
        EMedPA

        If they didn’t absolutely suck in the snow, I’d be tempted.

        • 0 avatar
          gtemnykh

          A set of snow tires is basically a requirement for a Prius (or any car driven in a northern climate, the snob in me would argue). The third gen cars have a revised traction control system that won’t leave you high and dry sitting there without any power being sent to the wheels as a way to prevent damage to the motors/transmission. The 2nd gens were pretty awful about this, a coworker back in Ithaca ran studded snows on his, he said it was the only way to get around with all of our hills. Then again we had plenty of neighbors with 2nd gen cars that didn’t bother with snow tires and I never saw them stuck climbing our hill… maybe they just stayed home when things looked bad outside.

          • 0 avatar
            EMedPA

            I agree about the snow tires: I have 4 Michelin X-Ice 3’s on my Escape and the difference they make is huge. Having driven a 2nd generation Prius with snow tires belonging to my mother, i can tell you they don’t help. How anyone in Ithaca ever managed those hills in the winter with one is a real mystery to me. The road from downtown to Ithaca College would be impassable.

          • 0 avatar
            gtemnykh

            Heck that’s not even a bad hill in Ithaca ;)

          • 0 avatar
            WheelMcCoy

            >> Heck that’s not even a bad hill in Ithaca ;)

            Heh, what about Buffalo Street? I believe it was that very street where they filmed an episode of The Little Rascals with the fire engine race.

          • 0 avatar
            gtemnykh

            Yes Buffalo street is what I think of when I think ‘steep hill’ in Ithaca. Parallel to it coming off Stewart Ave is Williams Street, I spent a memorable evening there digging my brother’s RWD MPV out of a snowbank on the sidewalk (I arrived in our newer 4wd MPV) , as well as helping a bunch of clueless frat bros and sorority girls that got stuck in their summer-tired ML320s and X5s. Good times!

    • 0 avatar
      dal20402

      Yep, Nicholas, everything in this comment is right. The Prius, Camry Hybrid, and Accord Hybrid are my three go-to recommendations for people who just don’t care about cars.

      Toyota could absolutely clean up by making a RAV4 Hybrid with the Camry Hybrid’s powertrain. It’s baffling to me that didn’t happen for the 2013 RAV4 refresh.

      • 0 avatar
        fvfvsix

        You’re in luck, then. The 2016 RAV4 hybrid goes on sale this year.

        • 0 avatar
          dal20402

          Huh. I guess Toyota saw the missed opportunity. Good for them. They will sell a @#*($%-ton of these.

          So far they haven’t disclosed the powertrain. But they have said it has more power than the regular RAV4, which must mean it’s the Camry Hybrid powertrain.

          I’d rather have a RAV4 hybrid than a regular one.

    • 0 avatar
      krhodes1

      Agree 100%. And now that it comes in three sizes, there is a Prius for almost everyone who doesn’t care with the exception of the desperately needed Prius Minivan.

      But it will be a cold day in Heck before I buy one. Though I would buy a Prius-V looong before I would buy a Camry.

  • avatar
    psarhjinian

    “The Fit—it’s #fitforyou! I think it’s too expensive for what it is, and I wouldn’t even consider buying one over something like, oh, I don’t know, a FIESTA ST, but it suits the needs of lots of people perfectly”

    Except people who need to carry more than two people. The Fit and Fiesta aren’t even competitors in this sense: the Fit has more useful people room that the Focus and (possibly) the Fusion.

    “The Yaris just needs to be discontinued—it’s not competitive in any way, shape, or form.”

    The Yaris has one compelling advantage: red dots in CR. More than the Corolla, more than the Prius, it’s the most reliable car you can, statistically speaking, get. Want to buy something you only ever need to do notional maintenance on? Get a Yaris.

    The car is a) reliable in a way that makes the Corolla sheepish and legends like the Volvo 240 look like a Yugo, b) cheap to own (in the “never breaks, hardly wears through wear items and specs very cheap parts” and c) is unflinchingly cheap on gas.

    But yes, it doesn’t sell all that well. That’s because, despite all this, it is pretty miserable. You can get a nice Yaris (the five-speed hatchbacks aren’t at all bad) but it’s expensive and doesn’t give a good first impression. Hairshirts don’t sell.

    • 0 avatar
      SoCalMikester

      the 1.5 with timing chain is the equivalent of a whirlpool top load washer motor. it just works.

    • 0 avatar
      threeer

      kinda like the modern equivalent of my son’s (current DD) 1997 Tercel. 217k now, and near-zero issues other than basic stuff. Still original engine and transmission…interior has held up better than many cars half its age. Dead-simple and reliable, even though he’s now a pinned aviator for the Air Force, he plans on continuing to drive the little Tercel until it literally falls apart…which could still be a long, long time. I guess that’s why in some strange world, a five-door manual Yaris makes sense to me…

  • avatar
    dbar1

    Honda is eating Toyota lunch when it comes styling and performance #’s. I’m a Big 3 Homer so I would never buy a “foreign” vehicle, but Honda would be #1 overall in the non-B3 category.

    “People think our cars are boring, have 0 performance, and have no soul” – Toyota market research

    “I know! Make them ugly and put and “S” badge & body kit that looks like a 15 year old Dead weight put on, we’ll sell millions!” – Toyota PR Team

    Dead Weight buys one, screws up his midlife crises purchase.

  • avatar
    gtemnykh

    I mostly agree, namely on the Versa, Camry, Altima assessments.

    We just recently hashed this out in the comments section of the last ‘Generation Why,’ the Sentra is to the compact class as the Versa is to the subcompacts. Real world transaction prices often undercut most of the class, and rear legroom is just stupid big, excellent for car seats. The Focus is particular is VERY lacking in rear legroom, and the Cruze is no prize either. Also, they get incredible fuel economy, very easily upper 30s in real world driving. No it’s not a sporty drive and no the interior isn’t the snazziest, but it hits all the marks (cheap, roomy, efficient) that matter for middle class people with families buying a second car for commuting and occasional kid hauling duty.

    The Civic, while you are right that it has grown quite a bit, has managed to maintain a very modest weight relative to the rest of the class, all while being one of the roomiest cars in the class. Not necessarily in rear leg room (where it trails the Sentra, redesigned Corolla, and even the Elantra by a bit), but in elbow room, knee room for the driver, and just a general feeling of space when you’re sitting in the driver’s seat. Nothing is prodding you or bumping into you, even as a larger person. No tall consoles, no protruding dash. It feels like a midsizer from the driver’s seat. Now, combine that 2650lb curb weight and that hollowed out space to maximize people room, and you end up with quite a bit of NVH. Road noise from the wheel arches in particular is prevalent, especially on concrete. And i think they’ve revised this, but my 2012 has a marshmallow soft suspension, quite a bit of body motions, and it gets unsettled pretty easily on bumps and expansion joints mid corner. The upside is that it’s a champ over rough roads, and frankly that’s what I need for my daily commute. I owned one of the hallowed “EF” Civics with the double wishbone front end, a 1990 Wagon. Yes it was super communicative and fun to drive, with almost no body lean and awesome response from the hydraulic steering, but it also really beat you up over anything less than perfectly smooth roads. I’ll take the softly sprung 2012 LX for my daily drive. One last issue I have with the Civic is the small 12.5 cu ft trunk, one of the smaller ones in the class, and a non-split folding seat (same as on most Accords). This takes away a lot of utility IMO. Overall, I like the engineering simplicity of using low weight, decent aerodynamics, and a well sorted, low friction engine to achieve excellent fuel economy (high 30s mpg in mixed driving in the summer for me) in a car that’s about the size and performance equivalent of a 94-97 generation Accord, that uses simple port injection and a manual transmission. If I were in the market right now though, I’d scoop up a 6spd Sentra S for $13,500 and call it good.

    • 0 avatar
      r129

      Maybe part of the reason why the Sentra has so much rear legroom is that it has no front legroom. Why do the front seats only travel back about half as far as the other cars in its class?

  • avatar
    ajla

    Their naming scheme is terrible but I can’t hate too much on Infiniti considering they are about the last higher end brand offering natural aspiration and no I4s across their entire line. Plus at under $43k reasonably equipped, the Q40 and Q50 aren’t priced in WTF territory.

    Although their sales seem to indicate I’m in the minority.

    • 0 avatar
      CoreyDL

      I don’t think he put too much thought in placing the whole brand in this category. They do RWD, you get a big engine as standard, they have a full lineup, and they are made well. The interiors (on at least some) even have real wood. Some of them are even still made in Japan, and just two have a US market Nissan clone (I think).

      But they don’t sell well, so that = totally awful, I guess.

    • 0 avatar
      duffman13

      Infiniti is a funny case; I’ve always been a fan of the G. A 6 speed G37 sedan always felt like a car that I could wrap my head around.

      I think they’re fitting into the ugly category in the branding sense. The M was basically a non-player in it’s market space and that trend continues on with the Q70, and the Q50 flushed any brand equity the G had down the toilet with the name change. Then they have a bunch of also-ran CUVs and SUVs with mostly atrocious styling.

      I guess what I’m saying is I can see putting them in there. One good model and solid fundamentals don’t change the fact that something Infiniti does is out of step with the market, which is what puts them in that category, especially sales-wise.

      • 0 avatar
        ajla

        I’ve always liked the M/Q70 (just too poor to buy one) so I’m surprised it never made a larger splash in that class. The FX/QX70 seems like a good enthusiast CUV that still doesn’t even get mentioned among sportier crossover entrants and the QX80 seems at least as good as an Escalade and Navigator, which are really all it competes with.

        Maybe it is just a marketing thing (or quality?) because the products themselves seem pretty good.

        • 0 avatar
          CoreyDL

          Used M’s are where it’s at! ;) I swear they’ve got better AWD than my prior Audi. And where else can you get a 5.6L V8 AWD large-ish sedan for such a low price?

          The FX is kind of expensive, and after the first generation I think the styling turned a lot of people off. The subtle differences between the 2010 model and the 2012 model helped the appearance IMO. The FX really holds value well if you check them used, unlike other Infiniti models.

          The QX80 should also compete with the Land Cruiser, especially now since it’s based on the Patrol. But that LC history and lore is hard to beat – and certainly the resale value of the LC trumps most everything.

          I think it’s largely a marketing issue. They don’t advertise enough, and people don’t think of them when it comes time to buy. The naming now doesn’t help.

          • 0 avatar
            krhodes1

            The trouble with Infiniti is that they desperately want to be BMW, but BMW is already BMW, and most people who want a cut price BMW can afford the real thing.

            Then throw in their terrible interiors, overwrought styling, and bag of nails V6 that is basically the same as in an Altima, and there you go. And for the cherry on top of the suck sundae, the nonsensical new names of Q-this, Q-that, and Q-the-other. I have no idea which one is which, and I don’t care enough to figure it out. And I am really, really into cars. The average buyer will care even less than I do.

        • 0 avatar
          28-Cars-Later

          Used is your friend.

      • 0 avatar
        burgersandbeer

        Good luck finding a G37 sedan with a manual. I think the combo only existed for a year or two, before the stick became coupe only. And for a car commonly praised as an excellent driver’s car (albeit with a rough engine), the manual is hard to find even in the coupe.

        The marketing and name changes are a complete disaster. I spend too much time reading about cars, and sometimes even try to find the elusive 6-speed G37 on craigslist, and I don’t care to figure out the new names either. What problem was the name change trying to solve?

  • avatar
    Marone

    “The Accord…what can you say? It’s the Accord. It’s the Ohio State of cars”

    Best line here.

  • avatar
    ydnas7

    Sentra is better value than the Versa

    • 0 avatar
      gtemnykh

      I agree with this. Cheapest I’ve seen is about $11k for a 5spd Versa S, and like I mentioned before $13,500 will get you into a 6spd Sentra S, a significantly wider cabin, much better finished, cruise control, more power. An all around more substantial vehicle, while not losing much at all in terms of fuel economy.

  • avatar
    Pinzgauer

    I was in my driveway adjusting the shifter cables on a diesel geek short throw shift kit I had just installed on my ’12 Beetle Turbo, and some kid comes rumbling down the hill in a 2010 or so Corolla with a fart can muffler, lowered with a bunch of Tein stickers on it. Sounded like an Automatic transmission. All I could think is “why”, and went back to my work.

  • avatar
    energetik9

    I agree on the 370Z. A good car, but Nissan needs to do something with it. I always note that you just don’t see that many 370’s, but lots of 350’s.

    I also agree on the Nissan GT-R. I shopped a lightly used GT-R, and although it is an amazing car, I had a hard time really getting excited about it. The connection just wasn’t there. I always felt like every used GT-R I saw had been driven hard. I also had a gut feeling that a GT-R engine just didn’t have the longevity, but that’s purely my opinion. To me, the 911 was just an all around better choice and I ultimately went that way.

    • 0 avatar
      psarhjinian

      The 350Z was a performance bargain (well, unless you were Canadian) for the time. But now, with Mustangs and Camaros (and I suppose Genesis Coupes) undercutting it and G37 (I will not countenance the Q-nonsense) and 3/4-Series squeezing it from above, it’s got no real point.

      It needs to be a lot less expensive than it is.

    • 0 avatar
      duffman13

      370Z sport is the right amount of car and options for the money though at least in my book. Looking at truecar really quickly, I’m seeing offers on Sports in the $31-32k range, which is perfectly priced IMO.

      The difference between the Z and the pony cars on paper is alot less important to me than the driving feel and position that Japanese sports cars tend to have versus muscle cars. I can’t really explain it, but the position behind the wheel in a camaro or mustang always feels a bit ‘off’ to me, while the Z feels just right.

      It’s still on my list of cars to replace my S2k with at some point when it gets too old or beat up.

  • avatar

    I’m surprised you didn’t lump Acura into the same category as Infiniti. Except for the MDX and the TL/TSX/TLX, their whole lineup needs a reboot.

    • 0 avatar
      energetik9

      Good catch. Although I agree that Infinity is suffering more from an indentity crisis; Acura isn’t far behind. I would exclude all Acura SUVs though as the RDX is doing very well also.

    • 0 avatar
      S2k Chris

      “I’m surprised you didn’t lump Acura into the same category as Infiniti. Except for the MDX and the TL/TSX/TLX, their whole lineup needs a reboot.”

      Well…ILX and RDX are getting one as we speak. RLX sucks. So, uhh..

    • 0 avatar
      LeMansteve

      Except for [90% of their lineup], their whole lineup needs a reboot.

      ?

      • 0 avatar

        I can’t keep track of the nomenclature, but it seems as though Acura has two products that sell reasonably well and three that don’t. Like Infiniti, the Acura brand just doesn’t hold the appeal of BMW, Lexus or even Buick.

        Just my opinion as a former Infiniti fanboi, but I think Infiniti needs to get rid of the Q nomenclature, Acura needs to go back to naming cars Legend or Integra, and they both need to find a way to remain relevant before they go the way of Oldsmobile.

    • 0 avatar
      burgersandbeer

      The travesty with Infiniti is it had relatively recent momentum from the M45, G35/37, and FX35 and squandered it. Acura coughs up the occasional good model, but often awkwardly positioned in the market. This has been the case with Acura for some time. Does anyone reminiscing about the Integra and Legend realize just how old those models are? Acura probably doesn’t land in the Ugly category because expectations are so low at this point.

      • 0 avatar
        CoreyDL

        I don’t think we can add any recent momentum from M45. They really didn’t sell too many of those. The cost was far too high over the M35 models, without a ton of added benefit (and awful gas mileage – 16/21 or 14/20 RWD/X).

  • avatar
    Quentin

    Bark, out of the WRX, GTI, and MX-5, only one of those nameplates has moved over 20k units in a single year since 2010. The WRX/STI sold 24k in 2014 — new model, new engine. I remember in 2002 when the WRX sold just over 20k and Subaru was ecstatic that it was such a success in the US market — I am a long time Subaru fan. The GTI hasn’t broken 18k dating back to 2006. The MX-5 has topped 15k only 2 times since 2002. 8 of those years were under 10k. Ford doesn’t break out the ST numbers from the regular models, but I’ve read that only 4500 Fiesta STs were produced the first model year. So, a tiny RWD 2+2 that will be lucky to break 20k units in its 4th model year is an abject failure when it is selling as well as the other “competitors” sans the Mustang? Come on.

    The hype train was heavy on this car. Just because it was overhyped to a degree doesn’t mean that it doesn’t deserve some of the hype.

    • 0 avatar

      Yes, but how many of those were sold by TOYOTA?

      You can’t expect any VW, Subaru, or Mazda to sell as well as a Toyota. They simply don’t have the distribution network.

      Ford is pretty much building Fiesta STs on demand, and that was the plan from the get-go.

      • 0 avatar
        Quentin

        Being sold in Toyota stores doesn’t magically increase the buyer market for the car. The car simply doesn’t fit the needs of a vast majority of people due to the size and the driven wheels. That doesn’t make it a bad car when you consider the intended purpose, though.

        Re: comparison to Fiesta st sale – I could say the same thing because we don’t know what Toyota or Subaru’s sales goals were in the US. We don’t know what Subaru and Toyota require for a model to be viable. We do know it is a world car and that places constraints on how it was designed. It does need to have a small engine. It does need to be reasonably good on gas. We do know that it shares very crowded plant space with the Forester, WRX, and Crosstrek XV. It could simply be the case of Subaru prioritizing more profitable models that are in a much hotter segment. Heck, we are in the 4th calendar year of selling what is basically an unchanged niche car. If Toyota were selling this as primarily a US market Mustang competitor, I’d agree they missed the mark in a big way, but I don’t think that was ever the target.

        • 0 avatar
          dal20402

          “Being sold in Toyota stores doesn’t magically increase the buyer market for the car.”

          Actually, it does, particularly compared with something like Mazda or Subaru. Toyota dealers are everywhere, they’re given room to price aggressively, and over time they’ve been managed such that they are effective at selling. More buyers are close to a Toyota dealership and more of the buyers that walk into a Toyota dealership will walk out with a car.

          If Mazda and Toyota cooperated to build one midsize sedan and both sold it with no changes other than the badge, the Toyota version would sell many times as many copies as the Mazda version. Some of that is because of Toyota’s reputation but much more is because of the Toyota dealer network.

          • 0 avatar
            Quentin

            The availability of dealerships doesn’t change the buyer demographic. The car doesn’t fit your average household and that constrains the sales more than dealership availability. It doesn’t hold enough stuff or enough people for most people. A dealership on every corner doesn’t change the fact that it doesn’t fit most people’s needs. A Focus ST, GTI, or WRX can be a primary family car.

      • 0 avatar
        30-mile fetch

        “Yes, but how many of those were sold by TOYOTA?”

        Well, it’s a Scion and I’d argue that the Scion badge has far less cachet (for lack of a better word) and reputation than a Toyota despite the conjoined dealerships.

        Compact RWD sports coupes are a niche market anyway, sales numbers were never going to be high regardless of the execution.

  • avatar
    gtemnykh

    Let me add, that this latest Camry refresh is really growing on me, the rounded front end, aside from the gaping grille, reminds me of the 97-99 cars, which I like. The rear looks somewhat like the LS460, and again, has that pleasant ‘generic Toyota’ look that predated the angry/exciting trend. The fly in the ointment is really that rear pillar fake-window applique, that just looks stupid. The redone interior with much higher quality HVAC knobs and non-creaky lower dash bits has gone a long ways in righting the wrongs I see with my girlfriend’s 2012 SE. I hope the interior upholstery has likewise been improved to something closer to a velour rather than scratchy fire retardant junk. I saw an XSE in the parking lot last night as I was picking up a pizza, a fully loaded variant with perforated leather seats and big ‘smoked’ looking wheels. A very sharp looking car overall, with some slight smoothing and softening of the edges that I much prefer to the 2012-2014 cars.

    • 0 avatar
      gtemnykh

      Just noticed… holy comma overload on that first sentence Batman! Good thing I don’t write for TTAC, the B&B would have eviscerated me by now!

    • 0 avatar
      Zackman

      The long, skinny shiny black triangle is there to give the sideglass view a sleeker look, because the greenhouse hasn’t been changed – very expensive to do.

      The applique does work, however, and is appealing.

      • 0 avatar
        dal20402

        I don’t think it works. At all. It looks like badly applied makeup — I just want to wipe it off.

      • 0 avatar
        r129

        Whenever I see one of the new Camrys, I immediately think of the 1989-96 Buick Century and Oldsmobile Cutlass Ciera. It’s almost exactly the same treatment.

        • 0 avatar
          gtemnykh

          The Camry is sort of similar to that GM A-body in that it uses some pretty darn old bones dating back to 2002, but it’s a known quantity sold at a fair price, that gives good service. I mean that in a complimentary way to both the A-body and the Camry.

      • 0 avatar
        gtemnykh

        Absolutely Zackman, but I personally would be willing to pony up for the redesigned sheetmetal to get that slick greenhouse. The people who want to buy an LE for $18k obviously aren’t, and I understand Toyota’s position. If they could give this Camry a pillarless look like some of the early 90s Japanese luxury cars, then they’re REALLY be onto something!

        • 0 avatar
          dal20402

          A pillarless sedan meeting modern crash standards and the modern market’s expectations for noise would be almost impossible for a maker to engineer.

          But if someone did it, I would make imprudent financial decisions to own it. That’s the one way you could get me to buy a car I can’t afford.

  • avatar
    John R

    Nissan/Infiniti:

    Yes, the Altima is a bore. The Sentra actually does well in the Northeast – well enough to justify its continued existence? Umm…. And I will bet real money the GT-R outsold the Viper last year. Stateside and worldwide.

    Infiniti. It does need to be rebooted. “Turn the lights off”?? No. Not when the G37 (Q40, Q50, Q60) outsells all sedans with an Acura badge on them singlehandedly.

    Honda:

    Yes, the Fit is overpriced. Yes, the CR-Z should have came with a K-series motor.

    The ugly.

    ACURA SEDANS ACURA SEDANS ACURA SEDANS ACURA SEDANS ACURA SEDANS ACURA SEDANS ACURA SEDANS ACURA SEDANS
    ACURA SEDANS ACURA SEDANS ACURA SEDANS ACURA SEDANS ACURA SEDANS ACURA SEDANS ACURA SEDANS ACURA SEDANS
    ACURA SEDANS ACURA SEDANS ACURA SEDANS ACURA SEDANS ACURA SEDANS ACURA SEDANS ACURA SEDANS ACURA SEDANS
    ACURA SEDANS ACURA SEDANS ACURA SEDANS ACURA SEDANS ACURA SEDANS ACURA SEDANS ACURA SEDANS ACURA SEDANS

  • avatar
    DevilsRotary86

    “The BRZ/FR-S has plenty of competitors, most obviously the EcoBoost Mustang, the MX-5, GTI, Focus ST, WRX…pretty much any performance-oriented vehicle under $30k is a real-world competitor of the Toyaburu twins. It doesn’t have to be a rear-wheel drive coupe to be cross-shopped with them.”

    I still stick with what I said about the FR-S. You are absolutely right but I guess I am delusional. If I were back in the market shopping for a new car, I would probably get an FR-S. I have the following requirements for a new car:

    -MUST be a 2-door (I am superficial too, I don’t drive 4 door cars)
    -MUST weigh under 3,000lbs (I have drawn a line in the sand against bloat, it’s 3,000lbs)
    -MUST be a manual transmission
    -MUST have a rear seat; even a token seat is adequate. If it has seat belts in the back then I am good to go.
    -MUST be at least 160hp
    -SHOULD be at least 200hp

    So the Mustang Ecoboost exceeds my weight requirements. The Miata of course has no rear seats. The Focus ST, Fiesta ST, and WRX are all 4-door cars. So my shopping list would be:

    probable buys:
    Toybaru twins

    possible buys:
    FIAT 500 Abarth
    MINI Cooper S

    maybe buys:
    Civic Si (3,002 lbs according to Honda, I am willing to give that a pass)
    GTI (according to VW, the 2 door manual squeaks in just under 3,000 lbs).

    And of those, I would probably pick an FR-S/BRZ. But again, RSX-S running like a Swiss watch, so this is all academic. Mostly this is on my mind because I just came back from the Dallas Auto Show last weekend.

    • 0 avatar
      krhodes1

      I soo wanted to like the Toyobaru. Really. It is a form factor that I really like. It is an idea I really like. I even like how they look. I like the price. The specs on paper seem spot on. But then I drove them. One of each. And it was just no fun at all. A wonderful chassis saddled with an engine that really just wants to be in your mother-in-laws Legacy. Droning away. The power is fine, it makes the right numbers, but it just isn’t fun. At all. It never wants to play. It needs a smaller turbo with the same power but tuned for a (just a little) lag and wham-bam turbo kick. Then it would be fun! Second most disappointing car I have driven in the past two years. First place going to the Ecoboost Mustang. Still a boat, that one.

      I bought an Abarth instead, and had two years of non-stop giggles in the stupid little Italian thing. Because it was a laugh riot of a car. I just sold it Tuesday, and I miss it like crazy. Not as fast, not as refined, not as pretty, but waaay more fun, and surprisingly practical for a very small car, as you can actually fit four full-size humans in it. Maybe not across the country, but certainly across the county. And MUCH cheaper to boot. I even did OK on depreciation, for only keeping it two years and selling it wholesale to CarMax rather than private selling it. I wouldn’t want one as my ONLY car, but as a fourth car just for fun and ripping around town it was fantastic. Good fun on the occasional autocross course too.

  • avatar
    dal20402

    “Of all the mid-sizers, the Camry is definitely to most rewarding to drive.”

    Having driven all the mid-sizers except the Legacy, I’m baffled how anyone can come to this conclusion. I’ve never driven a Camry *SE* but it’s hard to imagine that some slight suspension tweaks are magic sauce that will fix the unenthusiastic engine and general mushiness.

    I’d rather drive any of an Accord, a 6, a Fusion, or even a Malibu (provided I don’t have rear passengers) rather than the Camry, in that order.

    • 0 avatar
      30-mile fetch

      Jack did a pretty thorough review of how he came to that conclusion, including specifics on steering feel, body control, at-the-limit handling, lap time performance, and driver comfort. Not sure what else you want. Unless this is a repeating April fool’s joke…

      I would suggest driving one if you want to form an informed opinion. Tastes vary, but the SE really drives nothing like the soft LE/XLE. I haven’t driven much of the current crop of midsizers for comparison, but I do know the SE lacks “a general mushiness” and feels more alert and eager than the circa-2012 Fusion, Passat, Optima, Sonata, and even Altima.

      • 0 avatar
        dal20402

        I’ve read Jack’s review, and it’s just so far out of my experience of the current Camry that I don’t know how to parse it. I suppose it’s possible that the SE trim utterly transforms the car. It just seems unlikely based on how mildly sporty trim levels usually work.

        • 0 avatar
          30-mile fetch

          Jack’s reviews are unexpected and don’t mesh well at all with other outlets. So either he’s nuts, he’s pulling a prank, or he’s being more honest/knowledgeable than other reviewers.

          I’d parse it this way: withhold judgement and skepticism until you’ve driven one. Previous SE trims were pretty mild. This one seems more thorough.

          And it’s not a bad strategy; you can get a classic mushy Camry if that’s what you want or one that feels much more like an Accord or Mazda if the marshmallow handling was turning you off.

          • 0 avatar
            krhodes1

            I have driven several SE’s. Hertz has no shortage of them. I think Jack was on pain meds that day. Or he got some kind of ringer.

            It’s better than the regular mushmobile Camry, but it’s no Accord, never mind something that is actually sporting. Nothing about it makes you want to go faster down a windy backroad, though unlike a regular Camry it doesn’t actively discourage that sort of thing either. Dully competent in the best Toyota fashion.

          • 0 avatar
            30-mile fetch

            A rental ringer? As someone who does not have experience running mainstream midsizers to their handling limits I have to abstain from judgment here. But Jack was pretty clear on his assessment. And he repeated it several times in subsequent articles, with a different rental Camry, having owned an Accord and driven the Mazda6 on track.

            Maybe it was pain meds. Maybe he’s exaggerating to be a gadfly. But either way he’s provided a more thorough and detailed argument than the few counter opinions I’ve seen around here. Those like me who are weary of everything Toyota being crucified in enthusiast circles will cling to this like Gospel, others will try to explain it away because a Camry driving as well or better than an Accord or Mazda causes severe cognitive dissonance.

          • 0 avatar
            krhodes1

            Go rent one and make up your own mind. Hertz has PLENTY of them. I take every review I read with a grain of salt until I have tried it for myself.

            Having spent a few *weeks* driving Camry SEs of the past few generations, even the ugly new one, I think Jack is out to lunch on this one. But that is just my opinion, you should really go form your own.

    • 0 avatar
      gtemnykh

      You’d be surprised, the “SE” tweaks are actually very legit. Unlike the Corolla “S” of yore with the awful tacked on body kits and alloy wheels, these Camry SEs have significantly stiffer spring rates, shock valving, maybe fatter roll bars? Between that and the wider alloys that even the 4 cylinder SEs get, and I run out of nerves and determination way before I run out of grip whipping this thing around roundabouts and off ramps.

      • 0 avatar
        dal20402

        Huh. I don’t ever seem to run into them at the rental aisle but will grab one if I see it. If it’s that different from the mushmobile LE/XLE rentals I’ve driven, that’s great news.

  • avatar
    30-mile fetch

    I agree with quite a lot of this installment. Honda has some amazing marketplace performers in their lineup, vehicles that just hit the segment dead on the bullseye while also receiving good reviews in media outlets. And it surprises me a bit to see that the Civic has completely lost its identity despite being a strong seller.

    Nissan sells nothing that interests me now that the Altima is reportedly a numb appliance rather than a sharper-handling alternative to the Camry & Accord.
    There isn’t anything in the water. You’re just not drinking the stale Kool-Aid that most other media outlets swig when writing their Camry reviews. Car and Driver used one of the B-list writers to disparage the Camry SE you Baruth Brothers liked on the track with the same lazy regurgitated memes: “In other words, performance is adequate . . . for your parents.” Yuck. If you’re going to be cute & clever at least be cute and clever.

    The Corolla as not-as-good?: “…but is it a good car? It’s not a bad one. That means it goes here.” That seems about right, especially from an enthusiast perspective.

    I want an IS350 but have to fund a retirement account.

  • avatar
    philadlj

    What the hell has happened to the Civic?

    There’s a new Type-R on the way to the states to attempt to address this. It’s very green!

    The Lexus RC may have had some potential, but it’s very heavy and very hideous.

  • avatar
    dwford

    Interesting that all 3 major Japanese makes make only a meh compact car. I can’t believe the Versa didn’t make it to the Ugly category based on styling alone, same with the Camry. Hideous. To my eye there are almost NO vehicles produced by the big 3 Japanese makes that is attractively styled – I like the new Murano, the Altima is probably the best of their mid sizers, but are there any Hondas or Toyotas that get anyone even a little wet in the pants? No.

    The new Civic that everyone is drooling about? It’s the paint color, people. On first, second and third, look, the first thing that popped into my mind was how did they make a 2 door look like a 4 door. Something about that chrome trim above the door and rear window makes it look like it has rear doors. I’ll figure it out at the auto show this weekend.

  • avatar
    JohnTaurus_3.0_AX4N

    I went to a Honda dealer yesterday. I drove around the lot, looking for a used Element. There were none.

    I decided Id check out the CR-Z instead. They had one, it had the CVT. I asked how often do they get manual trans versions.

    The salesman goes into this long bit, explaining how hybrid cars work. I wouldve told him he was wasting his time as Im familiar with Honda’s IMA system, but there was no oopertunity to politely interupt. He just kept on and on until I finally began to walk away.

    He asked if I had more questions. I turned back and repeated my question on the manual-trans CR-Z. He said that no hybid has a manual trans because the CVT is a part of the system. I told him I specifically wanted to look at the CR-Z because *IT IS* avalible with a manual trans, I had reseached the car, read the reviews of the M/T car, etc.

    I said I didnt care about the Hybrid system, I was just thinking about a small, 3-door Honda with a manual trans, so the Hybrid part was not my primary reasoning for considering the car. In fact, you could word it as “in spite of” not “because of” it being a Hybrid.

    He said they had one (manual CR-Z) awhile back but doesnt know when theyll get more. I almost said: “so, were you lying about them all being CVT-only then, or are you lying now since you admitted you had one here, and possibly more coming in?!”

    No wonder I prefer to buy private party.

    About the article: I saw no mention of the Juke in the ugly pile, maybe I missed it. If it was a GM or Ford product, everyone would dispise it (not neccessarily including the writer of this article, just others in general).

    Having been in several B segment cars (Fit, Fiesta, Sonic), I find the Versa horribly uncomfortable. A 1989 Escort has less room, sure, but at least Im not bedidden after a four hour drive in one. What do they make the seats out of? Plywood with foam lefteover from 1980s office chairs glued on?

  • avatar
    CJinSD

    You bashed the Civic for being big and bloated, but it has among the smallest external dimensions of any car in its class. It’s about like criticizing the Z51 for being expensive when there aren’t any comparable performers that cost as little. This Civic is even smaller than the last Civic, something few other current offerings can claim. It is true that Civics were much smaller 25 years ago, but they aren’t competing with Tercels and Colts anymore.

  • avatar

    This was a good installment. I thought about doing the good-not-bad triplex format, but nothing here fails the smell test badly enough. The question of BR-Z was answered. Sure, things were omitted… Maybe put more hate on the Scion in general, you know. Alex Dykes once drove 2012 tC and found a lot ot like about it, so demolish that review perhaps?

    That said, I still cannot understand how people even manage to drive the Mustang, considering how oppressively huge it is. I’m sure the ferrocity of Boss 302 has to be powered by something, like a blown V-8 and a gigantic fuel tank, but eh… Every time I go on the market, I just sit in one of those, and think — nope, I’m not ready for this.

    P.S. The point about Fit Si is well taken. Okay, so it’s a beam rear. But Mustang has live axle and blows the doors off dozens of IRS cars. So that can’t be deal-breaker for Fit. Perhaps now that Honda finally delivered a factory turbo outside of a kei car, we may expect it happen.

    • 0 avatar

      I owned a 2005 tC.

    • 0 avatar
      gtemnykh

      A Fit with the upcoming 1.5L turbo would really be interesting. Perhaps the fatter torque curve could finally allow them to make the gearing on the stick shift more highway friendly, ala Sonic 1.4T.

    • 0 avatar
      krhodes1

      I find zero shame in a twist beam rear axle in a nose-heavy FWD compact car. All it has to do is hold up a light rear end. It is light enough to not cause unsprung weight issues. GTIs had them for generations.

      But a HEAVY live axle on a RWD sports car? No. You can make a car with a lot of unsprung weight handle really well, or you can make it ride pretty well but you can’t make it do both at the same time. A live-axle Mustang is great on a nice smooth race track, and a gigantic pile of suck on a corrugated frost-heaved back road in Maine that a BMW will glide over. The new Mustang is a quantum leap thanks to the IRS. Just still too much of a giant boat of a thing for me. I like a car that shrinks around me as I go faster, the Mustang still feels like it gets 2X bigger. I was so disappointed. I still find them to be really cool cars, but not the car for me. Maybe when I have room and money for 6-7 cars I will get one just because.

  • avatar
    jdmcomp

    I recently drove the 370Z with high expectations. It failed in all respects. It is noisy, harsh, loud and not all that good in the performance arena. After all these years that v6 ought to smooth as butter like the first SHO 6s. But no, it sounds like a coffee bean grinder amplified. And no sound deadening at all. Why bother with a radio at all, you simply could not hear it. No, this is a car for young men who fell on the top rail of their bicycles too ofter and are having to make up for that injury.

    But ok, it did handle nicely and looks good.

    • 0 avatar
      dal20402

      VQ noise makes my hair stand up, and puts my teeth on edge, and not in a good way. For some reason it’s especially obnoxious in the longitudinal cars. I might have bought a G37 instead of my G8 if not for the noise (and the interior that wasn’t much better than the G8’s).

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