This will be the first winter since 2009 when I will not be driving an open top sports car. I can say with confidence that for a daily driver in the Snowbelt, the answer is not necessarily “Miata”.
As much as I adored my Miatas, I had come to the realization that the six months of blissful, open-air motoring in the summer was outweighed by the misery of driving one in the winter.
Traction in the snow was the least of my problems. With a good set of winters and a limited slip-differential, I was never once stuck, spun around or slipping excessively in the snow or on ice.
Things that did suck, in no particular order
- The utter lack of insulation, which made the car freezing cold. Not even the hardtop could remedy this.
- No ABS. Some of the more cantakerous types will probably be rolling their eyes at this assertion. I know how to threshold brake, but I also know the sheer panic of trying to come to a complete stop on a slick road after a child has just ran into the street to get their ball. Never. Again.
- The rather limited cabin space is not conducive to wearing a parka and size 11.5 EE Red Wing snow boots.
- Jack’s accident made me think twice about driving a car with a less than modern suite of safety features.
For now, I am enjoying the relative warmth of the all-steel bodyshell, the heated seats, the Bluetooth system, the rear seats and proper trunk. I am sure that, come spring, I’ll be missing my Miata.
The big change for this month was the addition of a set of snow tires. Our friends at TireSpot recommended a set of Hankook Winter i-Pike RS W419s in 205/60/16, and I immediately installed them in preparation for another Polar Vortex. Of course, it’s been a warm winter, with only a light dusting of snow, but this weekend’s winter storm should reveal how they perform in the white stuff. Fuel economy is sitting at 26 mpg, largely in town. On our next tank, we’ll see what kind of effect the snow tires have on fuel economy.
So far so good, or at least that’s the way it sounds. I’ll be interested to hear how the Hankooks perform
My roommate has these tires on his RAV-4, they work great. I have the light truck version, the RW11, on my Rover and they are most excellent as well. I’ve driven it through a field with 18″+ of snow on it, then dragged a (empty) boat trailer out. They are quiet on dry pavement too, quieter than the summer Yoko Geolanders. The 419s are noticeably louder, but that may just be the difference in sound insulation between a Range Rover and a RAV-4.
The difference between the Geolanders and the RW11s cannot be exaggerated in the snow. As with all AWD vehicles, the Rover would GO just fine in snow with the Geolanders on it. But the darned thing would not stop – just massive ABS pulsing and sail on to Sunday. With the Hankooks you can brake in the snow stupid hard before the ABS kicks in.
I always thought Audi had the right idea about ABS – put an off switch in the car for snow and gravel use. But I would imagine product liability makes that a non-starter today, and modern ABS is much better in the slipperies than the ’80s-90s vintage systems.
Those RW11s are surprisingly reasonably priced
I have the non-performance version (409) of these exact tires, I think even in the same size, on my Pontiac Vibe. They are great. Our garage is in an uncleared back alley so there can be 6+ inches of snow on top of 3+ inches of ice (or at least there was last year with the Ice Storm of the Century). No problems whatsoever.
Interesting! Very similar reason as to why I ditched the BMW e36 platform. Despite knowing the car inside and out and having a plethora of FREE parts available to me on command, the enjoyment of driving it in clear weather was outweighed by its abysmal performance in the snow.
Once the car “got going” it would perform alright in 4-5 inches if snow, the largest hurdle was trying to gain sufficient momentum to break free from the bumper to bumper parallel parking spot.
Often I was forced to trek to work, on foot, while my neighbors in their FWD’s were not even so much as challenged by the embankmemt.
Just a pair ? Why not all four on steelies..?
I didn’t notice that before, Derek you know you’re suppose to get snows all the way around
I don’t know why I typed “pair”. Ugh. I ALWAYS get four snows, and this time is no different.
On my car the mileage stayed about the same with snows but I did go down a size, from 17 to 16 snows , hope you got 4 tires on different rims, much to change out when spring comes, snows saved my but a few times driving from Nj to Mississauga over the last two years.
Honest Injun (is that acceptable to say in the 21st century?), but I was all about getting into a CPO Crown Vic, then Jack had his accident.
Say what you will about the more modern Panthers getting retrofitted with more of the standard safety equipment, and I’m sure Sajeev and the rest of the B&B will strike me out of TTAC’s version of Paradise for turning my back on Panther Love, but I saw what happened to Jack and rethought that idea.
What you need is D-platform love. Want a bargain of a large sedan but also need safety? You sir need an MKS.
I think Jack’s accident is the perfect response to all the idiots who think size (alone) = safety. That was a relatively low speed accident too. A few safety features glommed onto a fundamentally late ’70s car do not a safe car make.
I also wonder if Jack has snow tires on his Accord. That seems like a pretty good take away lesson from that accident too… A pretty good racing driver still managed to lose it in the snow at moderate speed in a car that is not exactly twitchy. Though I do wonder if something with decent steering would have telegraphed to him that the grip wasn’t there better than that barge of a Lincoln did.
I wouldn’t call being hit by a car that was estimated to be going 40-50mph while Jack’s car was sliding s!deways at an estimated 40-50mph a relatively slow speed crash. Yes there are safer cars out there but there are also a lot worse cars out there.
I agree, I was in a terrible wreck with a semi going 70mph. The only thing that saved me was the seatbelt and the shear mass of the Town Car I was driving
Confirmation bias much Lie2me? If the plural of anecdote is not data the singular sure as heck isn’t.
Just goes to show all the B&B (well everyone really) likes to think they are rational but face it you are not.
Never said it was rational or scientific, but the next time you get run over by a semi and live to talk about it let’s see how rational you are about the reasons why
Hogwash, the only thing that saved you was dumb luck.
I doubt there is much of anything sold in the US in 2015 that is not worse in a crash than a Town Car. Certainly nothing of even remotely reasonably similar size.
Think so?
http://s188.photobucket.com/user/jimbob1955_2007/media/monday/1wreck_zps9a439410.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0
For the record, I’ve seen pictures of a Volvo 740 that had been squished by a semi, the owner was alive and still smiling.
I think that mass certainly helps with a modern car but proper steering and modern construction help too.
Just for purposes of clarification, I was stopped dead in the road and the other driver never touched the brake, so let’s say they were doing sixty.
Head-on or offset we’d have been much better off. I doubt any car on the market could catch a car in the door like that and do particularly well.
26 mpg is kinda low for this car, even around town, no?
Keep us posted on how the tires work out, though we won’t know much about how they wear after one season.
I think the snow tires are a must even for FWD cars. Before I became particular about tires I had a FWD compact car, and traction was a nightmare. At least twice a season I would find myself pricing Subarus in a fury before calming down.
Well, snow tires and E10 both have an effect. I’m curious to see what impact the snow tires have. EPA lists this car (6MT hatch 2.0) at 29/40/33 mpg.
Fuel economy goes down as the temperature does. A decrease in winter is expected.
Indeed, but that’s still low.
I have a 3 with the larger engine, and the worst I’ve seen is 26, and that’s from nothing but 1 mi drives in cold weather (not enough time to warm up everything), but “cold” here isn’t the save as cold there.
Without speaking to Derek’s specific driving habits, I had a ’14 3 with the 2.0/automatic last summer for several days (same city, primarily in town), and averaged something like 27mpg, so 26 isn’t entirely unreasonable. I’ve been averaging a touch over 30 out of my Mazda2 (5-spd) since putting winter tires on, with considerably less weight and engine.
I actually gain 3 mpg on my winters, but they are radically different sizes. I run 205 Michelin xice winters on a 16″ rim and in the summer 225 bfg comp2’s on 17×8’s.
The Michelin’s seem to be more efficient than blizzaks I’ve owned in the past, as they always seemed to do worse than my summer tires. That said, different cars so I don’t have a clean comparison.
When I got my studded Hankook W401 Zovacs, one of the things I noticed was the high rolling resistance. The car would not coast without decelerating. I measured about a 2 or 3 mpg hit switching from all-seasons to these.
12 years later the studs have all worn out or broken off, so coasting is better, but at the expense of ice traction. I still have 10/32’s tread depth, probably due to the studs minimizing rubber contact (win?). On glare ice, I would choose a freshly studded tire over my newer X-Ice XI2’s, but the latter in any other winter condition.
The studs don’t have much effect on rolling resistance. NAF tire testing has shown that studded and studless winter tires have similar rolling resistance.
https://translate.google.com/translate?depth=1&hl=en&rurl=translate.google.com&sandbox=0&sl=no&tl=en&u=https://www.naf.no/forbrukertester/dekktester/vinterdekktest-2013/
The big factor is tread mass. The rolling resistance of any tire will decrease as the tread wears down.
Derek, you must have much colder winters where you are – I drive my Miata in the winter with a hardtop, and have not had any problems staying warm. Lowest around here is about 5 degrees F, so YMMV. I’m also driving a 2000 model – not sure if the heater is better compared to the first generation.
Your other three points are valid, though. I don’t wear boots while driving, for example, though I will note that the Miata has a lot more foot room than my old Triumph Spitfire. I had to buy driving moccasins so my size 13s would fit in the Spit. As for ABS, well, you just need another Miata that has it – time for a new Miata!
As for modern safety features, I think this is the number one reason to buy a newer car. I don’t fit in an NC Miata, so I’ll be looking seriously at the new ND models this year. Of course, if you really want to be safe, you need a larger new car, but that would be no fun.
I can confirm just about everything DK says about wintering an older Miata(96). On cloudy cold days, that ragtop just won’t let the cabin warm up. However, the hardtop worked perfectly for me(plus the factory defroster rear window). I cannot confirm anything at all about Miatas in the snow. I was always too scared to take it out until the roads had been cleared and were dry again. Also, salt; be afraid, be very afraid.
There are pluses and minuses. Small cabin = easy to heat up quickly. But moot if you can’t fit inside wearing cold weather gear.
Spent 2 winters with a 90 in Watertown NY. My only issues were that the plastic rear window shattered when I went to wipe away the snow on a -30 morning and it would high center on the rear diff backing out of my driveway if I tried to leave before the snowplow hit my street. Wasn’t the best choice but it worked.
Imma gonna call BS on this whole “you need 4 snow tires” thing, at least on a fwd car. Back when I had no money, I ran our ’92 Protege every winter with just front snows, and it was like a tractor.
And yeah I know the tire guys also say to ‘put the snows on the back’, and I call BS on that too; for traction put ’em on the front.
It was certainly better than my ’91 Miata with 4 snows, which my 18-year old son still runs every winter.
And before everyone yells at me too much, yes I now have four rear-drive cars with 4 sets of 4 snows on each – my comments above are strictly for fwd, and no you can’t corner too aggressively.
And since 4 sets of 4 suck up all my garage space, well there’s that too.
Correction: one of my cars is a FJ Cruiser with full-time 4WD and mud&snow tires; so that leaves me with 3 rear-drive cars with snow tires. The Mustang GT and Miata are kinda horrible on ice; the RX-8 despite its other flaws, is fantastic in the snow.
Man, compared to most of you guys, I guess I must be some kind of daredevil, or something. I’ve been driving small FWD Fords in New England with just plain old all-season tires exclusively since around 1992.
Before that I drove my dad’s ’84 Mercury Grand Marquis with cheap all-seasons for a few years and an ’86 T-Bird Turbo Coupe wearing Dunlop GT Qualifiers. Never had any problems getting around in the winter. Then again, the majority of my travels has been restricted to paved streets and highways.
Just because you can drive in the winter without snows doesn’t mean you should. You’ve been lucky so far, but did you ever think how much better your winter driving experience might be if you had snows? Just like having 4WD, yes you can manage without it, but having it is so much better
Been there, done that, Snows soley on the front of a vehicle is a recipe for oversteer around every corner. Not saying that’s a bad thing though…
With winter tires on the heavy front and all seasons on the lightweight back, you’ll have fine enough traction to get you going, but you may lose a lot of margin in case you need to lift/brake in a turn, or over a crest. Like having somebody stand on the front of a shopping cart while you push it around.
Hmm, interesting analogy except it seems more suited to RWD since you’re the power and you’re pushing the cart from behind
I live about 180 km west of Derek and Mikey in SW Ontario. Winter tire uptake in my neck of the woods is, by my observation, about 50%. I just spent a week in New England, mostly in Maine. I was surprised that winter tire usage there was probably no better than 5-10% of the vehicles I observed. There were four cars in our hotel parking lot with winter tires: one was mine, one was from New Brunswick, and the other two had Nova Scotia plates. Given Maine’s climate, I would have thought winter tire usage would have been higher.
I don’t know if this is different in Canada, but winter tires are not advertised much, if at all around New England. California probably has better awareness of them due to chain control checkpoints in higher elevations. For non car people that do not have car people among their friends and family, tires are round black things that their mechanic periodically advises them to replace.
With my friends and family (all living in places where roads are cleared at some point), I’ve found winter tires a tough sell. Talked my sister into it, and she thought her all seasons had more traction. She either sold them or left them on year round just to get rid of them; I forget. My dad is now retired, and sees no reason for them anymore; he’s happy to stay put until the plows arrive. Most people look at me like I suggested they light $500 on fire, then respond with something like “if all-seasons can’t get you there, you should stay home.”
Could be a cultural thing too. New Englanders have a tendency to suffer and make do, rather than spend money on something that will make life easier.
Winter tires are advertised heavily here, especially the Michelin X-Ice and Bridgestone Blizzak. The fact that winter tires are mandatory in neighbouring Quebec probably doesn’t hurt, either. I have run winter tires on all of my vehicles since 1996 and consider them necessary evils of vehicle ownership in a cold climate, and are factored in at purchase time (and negotiated along with other fees and options).
The cost makes it not very palatable to most people, agreed. With rims, you’re looking at Damn near or over 1000 bucks pretty quick, not counting tpms sensors and such, if the car requires them. Even cheap, tire rack rims and tires for a mini, 16″, cost over 1300 with tpms sensors. And those are small tires.
A vast majority of people aren’t going to want to spend that, let alone the hassle of juggling tires and rims around each season.
I bought a perfect condition set of used OEM alloys for my BMW for $300. A second set of TPMS sensors was $200, but that is optional in my state as it is not required for inspection. Tires are “free”, assuming you will keep the car long enough to have to buy a second set anyway. The hassle (what little there is) of juggling wheels is far less than the hassle of paying an insurance deductible. Wheels for my Rover were even cheaper, $150 for four shipped.
Tonight is a perfect example of why I run winter tires. It is currently that o-so-fun condition of freezing fog on the coast of Maine – on top of 6″ of snow overnight, and freezing rain off and on all day. Roads are slicker than gopher snot. Lots of cars off the road that would probably still be on it if they had the right tires for the job at hand. Sure you could creep along at 20mph with no-season tires on, but I prefer to make progress.
No one I have ever talked into snow tires has ever gone back to not using them.
Heck I remember my parents buying snow tires while growing up in Connecticut in the 70-80s. Those where the days of long cold winters. We just do not get the winters we use to back in the day. Now we might get heavy snow a few times a year but usually if it is real bad the state shuts down. All season tires are great for this area, since they work fine in most snow conditions, and even better on dry tarmac in between the few major storms. Snow tires are really only good in adverse conditions but not great on dry roads. Personally I do not know one person that uses snow tires where I live in the Boston area. In Northern New England I could understand shelling out the money but it makes less sense around here since the cities and state are good about plowing the roads.
This is the first time I am putting on winter tires — Michelin X-ICE Xi3 on my TSX Wagon. My wife sometimes need to be at work in NYC by 7:30am, before the streets are plowed well.
I also see winter tires as insurance. And while using them, I am not putting any mileage on my all seasons. And when the all seasons do eventually wear out, I can consider something just a little bit more sticky.
Wait…do you live on Chiltern Hill or Avenal?
@ Mark-_Miata. ……. I I live in the same general area as Derek . We can go down to -10 F . Rarely we can get to -40 .F & C meet at -40. Miata,s and convertibles in generall, should not be out of the garage Nov to April
Oh yeah, that’s cold. With the tiny battery in the trunk, not sure the Miata would even start at -5 F, let alone -40 F. I keep mine on a battery tender in the winter now sine it sits outside – previously I took my wife’s car if it dipped below freezing.
I agree – not sure if a Miata would start if it was that cold, given the small battery mounted in the trunk.
Wildly differing ideas about snow tires in this discussion.
It comes down to whether you ever face hills. Do you live where it’s flatter than a billiard table? Then you can probably get around on drag slicks in the snow if you leave enough room to turn and stop. Do you have to get up and down hills, like, ever? Then you want four snows, no matter what type of drivetrain you have. The amusing videos of people “driving” in snow in hilly Portland and Seattle make my point. There’s a good one out there from Pittsburgh too.
Could not agree more. Without four snow tires, my wife could not make it the last fifty feet up to the garage on all-seasons, despite AWD.
Well, you might be able to “get around” on summer tires by leaving enough room to turn and stop. But with winter driving it’s just a matter of time before you encounter a situation in which you WON’T have enough space to turn or stop on summers or no-seasons. With winter rubber you would.
So no, it doesn’t come down to whether or not you face hilly terrain.
I agree and would add that there is no such place completely void of “hilly terrain” Even here in the “flatter than a billiard table” midwest one encounters unexpected hilly terrain all the time around creeks and rivers, as well as overpasses etc.
Hilly terrain gets really tricky when you have a switchback to climb. The “sideways” sections are where you need snows on all fours.
This is all so foreign to me. Having been raised in Florida and now living in Hawaii, I can’t relate to this at all.
One day I’m sure the advise found herein will prove valuable.
So, what tires do you recommend for navigating lava flows?
@Lie2me – “So, what tires do you recommend for navigating lava flows?”
I highly recommend Google Maps. :)
Ok, although I was making a joke to someone who was ribbing us about not needing snow tires, there’s this…
December 18, 2014
“A public lava viewing area opened yesterday in the Big Island town of Pāhoa, just before stores at the area’s largest shopping center began to close in expectation of lava advancing across Highway 130—the sole access road into the town and the lower Puna District.”
http://blog.sfgate.com/hawaii/2014/12/18/big-island-lava-viewing-area-opens-as-flow-forces-stores-to-close/
At least I’m not trapped by my snow-covered roads here in the upper-midwest
@multicam
I’ve visited Hawaii twice. I would definitely want to stay. On the island of Kauai, I saw tons of Mustang convertible rentals for some reason.
Lack of insulation, no ABS, limited cabin space, lack of safety features… sounds like the Miata JD Power survey numbers will take a big hit on this.
No lane keeping assist or 14 airbags? Shrug. But no ABS on a 2015 mass-market vehicle? This floored me. I can’t believe Mazda would even sell one without ABS.
DK is talking about an older Miata without ABS.
Every single car sold in the US requires Stability Control which uses the ABS to control the car. I’m pretty sure the regulations regarding that are the same for Canada. (I won’t get into lighting requirements or anything like that).
A Miata for winter:
1. Winter tires – check
2. Limited slip – check
3. Heated seats – check
4. Convertible hard top – check
5. Driving mocs, driving gloves, and scarf (but not in plaid) – check
Finally bought my first set of snows a month back. Today is the first time I’ll be able to check them out in actual snow and ice. I would have bought Hankooks as I’ve been sticking to their tires, after issues with Michelin, Goodyear, and Cooper, but I’m trying out a set of Firestone Winterforce’s after a recommendation from a friend (and a discount).
Winterforce are good snow tires, just terrible handling tires. Loud and no dry grip, but go through snow like a mother trucker. Ran them for awhile on my wrx and are running some on the wife’s Cooper S. Just don’t expect them to handle, or go much over 80 with.
They’re on my DD—Kia Soul so handling isn’t a priority.
The EVO is put away for the winter.
When I got my first FWD car living in the snow belt, I had front snows and chains ready to go for the real heavy stuff, and never got stuck once, stopping with crappy non-abs brakes was a different story.
Mazda3 review in a nutshell: 1. Got snow tires. 2. Haven’t driven in snow. 3. Getting 26mpg driving in town during mild winter weather.
I interpreted it as more of a Miata review.
Derek has to make somewhat regular posts about this car whether he’s got something to say or not in order to legitimize its purchase as a tax deductible business expense.
Negative.
The only mention of the Mazda 3 you made was of the tires, which aren’t even the stock tires. Why even call this a long term update??
“The only mention of the Mazda 3 you made was of the tires, which aren’t even the stock tires. Why even call this a long term update??”
This is pretty typical of other websites and buff books. I think the idea is to write down impressions while they are still fresh in the author’s head. Long term updates need to be frequent, short, and coherent — which this post is.
A complete and detailed conclusion is usually supplied at an arbitrarily defined end — such as when the lease is up or when 20,000 miles are reached.
Short and coherent; yes. Not frequent though. I had completely forgotten about this car.
Derek needs to take it on a road trip or help someone move or something. Look for excuses to challenge the car, rather than tooling around on the normal schedule.
For comparison, I looked at a couple samples from the Edmunds long-term fleet, and updates are often twice per week, and never more than two weeks apart.
Edmunds has a staff of 20 or so to rotate among the car. I am only one person, and I also have to rotate in and out of press cars.
I would swap out the locking wheel nuts. They are almost guaranteed to be a hassle at some point, and no one will steal the rims.
“… I also know the sheer panic of trying to come to a complete stop on a slick road after a child has just ran into the street to get their ball. Never. Again.”
Derek,
You may have heard this before, but … beware of ABS + snow. If it’s really slippery, ABS often EXTENDS your braking distance by forcing the tires to keep rolling. If they could slide, they would build up a little snow in front and stop sooner. You may have more steering control with ABS, but your braking ability is often diminished in exchange.
There are few driving situations more frustrating than feeling the ABS rapidly pulse and release pressure every time the tires start to lock up and dig in. Another is when you only have one or two wheels on a single s*de locking up on variable icy surfaces and the pulsing prevents you from modulating the rest of the brakes properly. That pulsing that is tolerable when you’re braking firmly becomes a real detriment when a light, precise touch is necessary. The locked wheels are irrelevant, and often beneficial.
All you really need to know to benefit from disabling ABS in winter – as*de from the basic principle of not trying to steer while braking – is how to correct the vehicle if it begins to rotate under lock-up. That’s not difficult and, with practice, it can be done in a small fraction of a second. Once you’ve got the muscle memory it happens automatically before you have a chance to even think about it. Release, correct, squeeze.
Winter driving without electronic interference really is a lot of fun.
Modern ABS systems really decrease this issue. Winter tires decrease it even more. As I mentioned, with the Geolanders on, which are a far more aggressive tire than you would typically have on a car, my truck will do exactly this on slippery surfaces. Touch the brakes, and the ABS cycles because the tires have no traction. With the Hankook snows on, you can brake HARD before the ABS cycles – like cause significant nose dive hard. But even with that said, I would still love to see an on/off switch for those VERY rare occasions when no ABS is better.
Glad to see this review. We are thinking of a 15 i touring and really interested to see if there are any other issues out of the plant and to see how it drives and the gas mileage.
The mileage really interest us with the capacity of a hatch.
BTW living in Pittsburgh no snow tires FWD cars and get around fine but I’ve had snow tires in the past and they definitely helped.