By on December 30, 2014

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They call it vampire capitalism: corporate loan sharks preying on the poor and having them thrown in jail when they can’t pay interest rates often in excess of one thousand percent. The newest and most distasteful face of vampire capitalism is the title pawn provider. Although TTAC has discussed the issue in the past, I’m embarrassed to note that we’ve failed to be as aggressive as we could be in discussing the evils of the title pawn business, in part because this site was previously affiliated with a contributor who had strong ties to that industry.

Not to worry, I suppose; what we were unwilling to do, the New York Times has ably accomplished.

“They are everywhere, like liquor stores” a customer-slash-victim of title pawns tells the Times, and if you, like me, live nearly six miles away from the nearest liquor store, you know what that means. Thousands of title pawn agencies have opened across the country. The shamelessness of the industry will amaze you; like payday loan providers, title pawns use the law to persecute the debtors drawn in by deceptive advertising and math that they are often simply unable to understand.

As with payday loans, the title pawns can afford to outspend consumer advocates in the Kumite of state-by-state lobbying expenditures, meaning that it may be years or even decades before their practices are curbed in any meaningful way. While we’re often accused of being excessively libertarian here at TTAC, there are some aspects of unfettered capitalism that are enough to make even us throw down our copy of Atlas Shrugged long enough to call for a bit of socialist oversight. Until that oversight arrives, the party will continue for the title pawn providers, one of which has managed to acquire a corporate jet. Is it really possible to recycle 1994 Oldsmobiles into Gulfstreams? Apparently it’s possible for the vampires.

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143 Comments on “NYT: Title Pawns Charge 500 Percent Interest, Buy $17.5M Private Jets...”


  • avatar
    JohnnyFirebird

    I saw a bunch of those when I was out in Vegas last summer. I don’t think their methods are legal here in Canada. Even those payday loan places left Quebec because of enforcement of maximum interest.

    That’s quite the admission as to why you haven’t covered it. The Randian Libertarians out there will have no problem with the overall process, although filing criminal charges to collect debt *is* against US law, right?

    • 0 avatar
      yesthatsteve

      Filing criminal charges to collect debt is prohibited. However, some states permit arrest warrants when debtors fail to appear at required court hearings or make a court-ordered payment, charging them with contempt of court. http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/the-new-bill-collector-tactic-jail-time.html

      • 0 avatar
        Lie2me

        This one little teensy-weensy legal loophole that makes debtor prisons a very real thing

      • 0 avatar
        05lgt

        And if they do show, file a continuance, repeat until they don’t show.

      • 0 avatar

        Actually, the linked article from HuffPo has a different method. The payday lenders were requiring a postdated check when taking the loan. If the loan wasn’t paid, they would then cash the check, which would of course bounce. They would then go after the borrower for passing a bad check, which is a criminal charge.

        It’s obviously an abuse of how check fraud charges were meant to be used, but I don’t know how widespread it really is – the article cited 1600 cases, which isn’t all that much in a nation of 300 million people.

    • 0 avatar
      Sigivald

      So… how do Canadians who need credit [short-term loans] and have crappy jobs and bad credit *get any credit*?

      Loan sharks?

      • 0 avatar
        darkwing

        Presumably, they turn to the government safety net. In fact, there’s an interesting way to view this, as protectionist legislation to protect the government’s place in private life.

      • 0 avatar
        ect

        There are both pawn shops and payday lenders in Canada. In Ontario, I understand that pawn shops can’t charge more than 60% p.a. in interest.

        Payday lenders can apparently charge up to $21 per $100 per 2-week period. I haven’t done the math, but I’m told that works out to more than 500% p.a.

        • 0 avatar
          JimC2

          “$21 per $100 per 2-week period. I haven’t done the math, but I’m told that works out to more than 500% p.a.”

          Yep, just a bit north of 500%. (Simple interest, not compound interest.)

  • avatar

    If I was an Auto Dealer lender, particularly of the three diamond sub-prime, type, I would open a chain of these loan-shark operations knowing I could fleece my customer twice, all the time smiling.

  • avatar
    Lie2me

    “Group Warns Of Debtors’ Prison Tactics Among Texas Payday Lenders

    During the holidays, consumer advocates worry that cash-strapped borrowers will turn to payday lenders and dig themselves into debt with high-interest loans. In Texas, it’s not the only finance charges that are raising alarms but threats of jail time.

    Payday lenders in the Lone Star State have filed at least 1,500 criminal complaints against borrowers for bad check writing and theft by check, according to a new investigation by Texas Appleseed, a nonprofit that promotes social and economic justice.

    The data “documents an ongoing trend of unlawful use of criminal charges by payday loan businesses to collect debts,” states the complaint that Texas Appleseed sent this week to federal and state regulators, including the U.S. Consumer Financial Protection Bureau and the Texas Attorney General’s office. In one court alone, researchers discovered “arrest warrants were issued in 42 percent of the bad check cases brought based on payday loan business complaints, and jail time or jail credit applied in 5.6 percent of the cases,” the complaint says.

    “What we want to see is further investigation,” Ann Baddour, director of Texas Appleseed’s fair financial services program, told International Business Times. “We feel very confident that the data we found is indicative of a real problem,” she said.

    In a traditional payday loan, a customer writes a post-dated check for the amount borrowed, plus the finance charge for the loan. “The law is fairly clear on the criminal s1de that if a post-dated check comes back unpaid, that doesn’t meet the standard for a bad check or theft-by-check,” Baddour says.

    In response to the complaint, the Consumer Service Alliance of Texas (CSAT), a trade association for short-term lenders, issued a statement, reiterating the organization’s “best practices” guidelines, which prohibit members from threatening customers with criminal action “in the absence of forgery, fraud, theft or other criminal conduct.” According to a copy of the statement emailed to IBTimes, “Every CSAT member company understands their membership in the trade association may be terminated if their organization chooses not to comply with the best practices, in addition to all applicable state and federal laws and regulations.”

    State legislators addressed the issue with a law that took effect in 2012. Unless payday lenders can clearly establish fraud, “they may not pursue criminal charges for nonpayment,” according to the Texas Appleseed complaint.

    Still, a July 2013 investigation by the Texas Observer turned up 1,700 cases of payday lenders lodging criminal complaints against borrowers in three cities, leading state regulators to undertake their own inquiry and to warn lenders against the practice.

    The Texas Appleseed findings stem from records requests to 21 county and district attorneys across the state, along with a review of information from four justice courts that handle lower-level criminal offenses. The report covers the period right after the new law took effect, from January 1, 2012 through the spring of 2014. Among the approximately 1,500 criminal cases brought by 13 payday lenders that the organization identified, “nothing that we saw documented evidence of fraud,” Baddour says.

    The state’s protections against debtors’ prisons date back to when Texas broke away from Mexico and won independence. The 1836 Republic of Texas Constitution states, “No person shall be imprisoned for debt in consequence of inability to pay.” In modern times, the mandate is spelled out in the state’s Bill of Rights as: “No person shall ever be imprisoned for debt.”

    Lawful debt collection tactics include taking civil court action against a debtor. “When someone in a desperate situation can’t pay, and then you threaten them with criminal action, it’s unjust,” Baddour says. Texas Appleseed requests that regulators remove “any wrongful criminal convictions” from borrowers’ criminal records, and “ensure restitution for individuals who paid money or served jail time” as a result of wrongful criminal complaints.

    The Consumer Financial Protection Bureau is expected to propose new federal regulations on both payday lending and debt collection. In July, the agency reached a $10 million settlement with Texas payday lender ACE Cash Express over the use of “illegal debt collection tactics,” including threats of criminal prosecution.

    Meanwhile, approximately 20 Texas cities have passed local ordinances to regulate payday lending practices in their communities.”

    .

    Debtor’s Prisons… Who wants to be the first to defend these creeps and the laws that allow this to happen?

    • 0 avatar
      masrapida

      Is this the NYT article? Where is this from?

    • 0 avatar
      MrGreenMan

      Usury should be illegal, and laws against it should be enforced. One wonders if putting a sticker on the window saying that they were paying a 2,000% APY would matter with the math illiterate. Of course, there are debtors prisons given the way America works: the courts are most mindful of being paid themselves, so, as started with family courts, so now every tort, the plaintiff needs only tie his financial gain to that of the compensation of the officers of the court.

      • 0 avatar
        -Nate

        ” Usury should be illegal,”

        It _is_ unless you’re a 1 %’er….

        Then as usual America’s Laws need not apply .

        -Nate

        • 0 avatar
          mmmach1

          Gosh I had no idea this kind of thing was going on!! So do gangs of lenders roam around the neighborhood with weapons and drag the people in? Then make these poor unsuspecting persons sign the papers and force the money on them!! Wow that is terrible. That should be illegal.

          Damn those evil 1 percenters.

          • 0 avatar
            Lie2me

            “That should be illegal.”

            So should flippant remarks about unscrupulous predatory lenders by 1%er wannabes, but hey, it’s a free country, amiright?

            So, run off to the country club and have a New Year’s drink and cigar with your cronies and laugh about all the people you’ve screwed-over and those less fortunate then yourselves

          • 0 avatar
            mmmach1

            Lie2me, I think you should open your own loan co.

            Lie2me Not for Profit Loan Co.

            That way you could stop all this injustice from going on. Charge 6% on your loans and hope for the best. I mean its not like most of your customers would have bad credit. Its not their fault the reason the don’t go to banks is because they don’t pay. I’m sure they will convince you it was all a mistake about their credit rating.
            Oh I forget about insurance on your business better make it 8% so when they slip on you floor and sue your covered. Oh but then there’s rent on the property so better make it 10% Darn I forgot about employees, you cant work all the time better make it 12% Duh I forgot about property taxes and unemployment insurance for those darn employees. I’m sure I’m forgetting about a few other things so you might have to raise that rate a little more. You probably wont make any money but just think of how good you will sleep at night knowing what a good thing that your doing. If I think of anything else Ill let you know. I have to go my drink is getting warm and its free shrimp night at the club. Don’t want to miss out.
            Let me know how it goes.

          • 0 avatar
            Lie2me

            Big difference between 6, 10 and even 20% and 600-1000%

            Nice troll, though

          • 0 avatar
            mmmach1

            “Big difference between 6, 10 and even 20% and 600-1000%

            Nice troll, though”

            Hey go for it then!

            Troll? LOL if you go through this site and add up all the snarkyass flippant remarks posted here you would be the champ by far. Not that some aren’t cleaver and I’ve laughed at several myself. I post the truth, that no ones holding a gun to their heads to make them take out these stupidass loans and you go all self-righteous on myass.
            “1% wannabe”? “Laugh about all the people you’ve screwed-over” You don’t know me and I haven’t screwed anyone over and don’t belong to a country club. If you so self-righteous put your money where your mouth is. Oh but I guess you wouldn’t want to risk your money on these type borrowers either.
            You probably don’t think they should be sold supersized soft drinks either.

          • 0 avatar
            Pch101

            Since lenders are capable of destroying the economy, lenders need to be regulated in order to prevent them from doing it.

            The linkage between lending and the monetary system should not be difficult to understand. Banks are not like hot dog vendors or taco stands; they can inflict real damage and cause deflationary spirals, just as they did a mere six years ago. (How quickly we forget.)

          • 0 avatar
            Lie2me

            Wow, what’s it like to never have been taken advantage of. How’s your internet bill, your cable and cell phone bill? All reasonable with no sneaky little charges you weren’t expecting, not even from a bank or credit card company? Nothing ever came up and bit you in the ass because you didn’t read the fine print on page 7? How about taxes, ever get hit with an unexpected tax because you didn’t read Publication 3942A page 23 paragraphs 8-16? If you ever got screwed over on something you signed up for, tough, no one held a gun to your head…

            … and if you tell me something like that never happened to you then I’ll know you are a liar

          • 0 avatar
            mmmach1

            “… and if you tell me something like that never happened to you then I’ll know you are a liar”

            Well I hate to break it to you but…anything that wasn’t a insignificant little thing? Honestly NO and I’m not lying. Except maybe when I was kid but I cant really remember anything that sticks in my mind but then that was along time ago.
            I’ve never bought anything I couldn’t afford and if I did borrow money I always did my homework before I did and always paid it back. I’ve loaned money to people but the ones that didn’t pay me back were the ones I figured wouldn’t when I loaned it to them. I did get cancer once and that sucked but I got over it. I’m sure I’m not the only one out there. If I am I guess I’ve been very lucky.
            Sorry to disappoint you.

          • 0 avatar
            Landcrusher

            Of course it was the banks that were the problem. No blame for the regulators or Freddie and Fannie? How many volumes of regulation and armies of regulators does it take to keep them from breaking what was clearly their fiduciary duty not to risk their banks on derivatives or make bad loans (even if the government is threatening them if they don’t make the loans)? Who is proposing that the board members and Chiefs be held liable for their negligence next time?

            You just can’t have a government guaranteed bank system and not blame the government along with the banksters. It makes no sense.

    • 0 avatar
      NoGoYo

      How do said debtors pay off their debt while in prison? The entire concept baffles me.

  • avatar
    PrincipalDan

    “They are everywhere, like liquor stores”

    In my area that would be an improvement as tight fisted as the state of NM is regarding liquor licenses. They’re doing more to try to restrict the sale of alcohol than to try to regulate pawn and payday loan.

  • avatar
    dwford

    While title pawn brokers are fleecing customer is extremely high rates, the Feds are more focused on alleged racism in the finance departments at car dealerships.

    • 0 avatar
      Toad

      That’s because the feds goal is to extract billion dollar fines from big banks, then brag about it on the national news. Why would the federal government not crack down on the title pawn industry?

      -Title pawn companies are generally smaller businesses that don’t have big assets to nab/fine (compared to big banks).
      -Unlike the FDIC, regulators don’t want to work in the title pawn industry after leaving federal employment
      -Title pawn customers don’t vote in high numbers.
      -Title pawn customers drive cars, and taking cars away from poor people forces them to use public transportation (which many activists believe is really for their own good).
      -The upper/upper middle class types that agitate for activist government have very little awareness of the title pawn industry.

      You can eliminate title the title pawn industry tomorrow and nothing will change. For better or worse pawn shops and loan sharks will step back in to fill the void like they always have.

  • avatar
    mechimike

    Cash for Title, Payday Lending, and Pawn Shops are what I call “Third tier financial services”. They prey on the poor and financially unwise. And while I’d never defend any of these places, I will say that part of the reason for their exorbitant usury fees is a result of the sometimes seedier portion of the population they deal with. Case in point: I knew of a guy who drove cross country, taking out title loans every few states or so on the same car, and then abandoned the car out west. Who got screwed there? Of course, then there are the honest folks who are desperate for cash, yet honest, and they get the ass over.

    Really, the problem boils down to piss poor money management. While we hand-wring over common core and guns in classrooms and no Child’s Behind left alone, the real problem is that our education system flat fails to do anything to teach real world usable skills. And the #1 skill that ought to be taught in all schools is basic personal finance.

    Once we’ve conquered that, we can move on to the overly materialistic culture that thrusts consumers into debt every year right about this time, only to be miraculously “saved” by Uncle Sammy sometime in early spring (never mind the “instant refund” advance fees, of course…) Or possibly deal with health care related personal debt, or student loan debt, etc..

    In my mind, its all of a piece. And, sadly, as fiscally conservative and Libertarian as I am, what I see out there in reality makes me wonder sometimes if Socialism wouldn’t be better in ways.

    • 0 avatar
      MK

      Your newsletter, Id like to subscribe to it.

    • 0 avatar
      Sigivald

      http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/12/29/nyt-on-auto-title-pawns/

      They “prey” on people with no other credit by “providing that credit”.

      I will, in fact, defend them, as providing a *necessary service nobody else is, will, or can*.

      (See link above – note that most title loan users don’t default – and those that do often default on a now-worthless broken-down car, and just walk away at no further cost.

      The Times is … not exactly unbiased here.)

      • 0 avatar

        The interest rates they use in the article are deceptive, too, because they are taking the interest rate on what is supposed to be a short-term loan of a couple weeks and extending it out to an APR.

        The NYT article starts out with someone who used the title loan to pay her electric bill and rent. Sure, it sucks that she lost the car, but if she hadn’t taken out the loan she presumably would have been evicted, or at least sitting around without lights and heat. Is that any better?

        Taking out a title loan is a lousy idea. But by the time someone is taking one out, it’s probably the least lousy option of a whole bunch of lousy options, like eviction.

    • 0 avatar
      carguy67

      re: “… I knew of a guy who drove cross country, taking out title loans every few states or so on the same car, and then abandoned the car out west. …”

      I’m confused; wouldn’t the lender keep the title? Did the guy have several copies of the title?

  • avatar
    Gardiner Westbound

    Fraud is theft with a smile!

  • avatar
    Burly Scudd

    Here’s a good digest of the libertarian defense of subprime/payday lending: http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2014-09-25/what-s-worse-than-a-subprime-auto-loan. Most customers are there because they really need the loan, and they can do the arithmetic, and the high cost is better than the alternative. Sure it isn’t pretty but neither is getting evicted for being late on the rent.
    Of course, the whole system is supported by the threat of state violence, and we are paying our oppressors to abuse us. So there’s that

    • 0 avatar

      Does anyone ever make a deal that they think isn’t worth it?

      • 0 avatar
        bball40dtw

        Maybe not at the time of excecution.

        However, after Detroit’s Floodmagedon, I seriously thought homeownership wasn’t worth it and wished I hadn’t bought a nice house in a nice neighborhood to only get it filled with poo water. I’m over it, but it felt like a bad deal for awhile.

      • 0 avatar
        DeeDub

        Before minimum wage laws, people willingly worked for pittances. Before child labor laws, kids worked instead of going to school.

        They probably entered into those arrangements thinking it was worth it, but that doesn’t mean the government was wrong to regulate such deals.

      • 0 avatar
        bunkie

        That assumes that all decisions are made rationally. Extreme stress can trump rational behavior in people. “Just make the pain go away!” is the cry of the truly desperate. You and I, with positive bank balances, can argue that the risk outweighs the gain, but we are not experiencing the same stress, so our very realities are different.

        And that, in a nutshell, is what is fundamentally flawed about libertarian philosophy. It assumes rational behavior (acting in one’s ultimate self-interest) in all circumstances.

        It is very hard not to look at this industry and see it as anything else than a fleecing of the poor. Let me tell you, the returns are spectacular and the investor class knows it. That’s why it’s exploding.

        • 0 avatar
          Landcrusher

          What philosophy brings us the status quo? It’s not libertarian policy makers in Congress or the administration. You take this problem and somehow connect it to libertarian philosophy like that’s the issue.

          The issue is that there are regulations and laws on this sort of thing that could fill the offices these guys operate from. The libertarian response here is that the regulation is doing you no good while creating an atmosphere of perceived fairness for consumers.

          Yes, the extreme libertarian answer is to have a big deregulation party and announce to everyone you are on your own. Short of that, maybe you should find out what some serious libertarians think about the issue and what could actually be done rather than repeat tired old stereotypes.

  • avatar
    sunridge place

    Didn’t realize Steve Lang was in the title loan business. Thought he was in the BHPH business…but I don’t know him. These are not the same businesses no matter how many auto blogger/armchair CEOs want to tell you they are through poorly researched posts with dramatic headlines.

    • 0 avatar
      DeeDub

      He did say “ties to” the title loan business, so maybe Jack knows more about Steve’s business relationships than we do, or maybe he doesn’t see much difference between two businesses that provide high interest loans to poor people using their cars as collateral.

      Something does seem wrong with his statement that as EIC he wasn’t free to talk about this topic while Steve was a contributor, but now that Steve is gone he’s free to tell us what he *really* thinks of “those people”.

      • 0 avatar
        sunridge place

        He wrote ‘strong ties’ I like Jack and read him across many of his channels. Title loans are not BHPH especially when BHPH is done correctly. Jack owes a bit more detail to those who understand business and go beyond headlines and aren’t morons who can’t distinguish between a title loan, a BHPH loan, a subprime used car loan, and a subprime new car loan.

  • avatar
    mechimike

    Reading the article raises another thought- poor automotive choices. The fellow who needed 4000 to fix his 2008 Audi was the worst offender. If he’d bought a small domestic pickup or sedan instead of a German deferred maintenance machine, it’s likely he never would have been in that position. But, then, isn’t that was this country is all about? Buying the most expensive things that you can’t really afford?

    • 0 avatar
      ihatetrees

      We now have stealerships pimping 8 year financing for new cars… While hardly the same level as these ‘Go Directly to Jail’ scams from payday lenders, it should be part of conversation regarding widespread personal finance illiteracy…

      • 0 avatar
        -Nate

        ” But, then, isn’t that was this country is all about? Buying the most expensive things that you can’t really afford?”

        Only if you’re ignorant .

        Then blaming someone else for your ignorance , makes you stupid .

        Many Americans , poor and rich alike , live within their means .

        -Nate

  • avatar
    Landcrusher

    Jack, lease don’t fall into the trap of blaming things on corporations and demonizing jets. If you have businesses in rural areas and make a lot of money, a plane is as important a tool as a van is to a band. You can get by without one, but it’s going to cost rather than save.

    If you want your stories to create change then name names. Not corporate names either. You need to say that Evil Pawn & Title Loan Corp CEO and Chairman Brokennose Bob is directing continued use of ultra high interest loans and talk about why that is bad. Use names and deeds rather than corporation and profit. Tie the man to his deeds.

    Corporations and profits and planes are not evil. They may be used for evil or the result of evil, but they also can be great things.

    Lastly, Libertarians often get criticized unfairly for being Utopians. Progressives would love for everyone to get the same pay, but that’s not utopian? Conservatives would love cultural freeze, as well. Don’t fall for that stuff either.

    • 0 avatar
      bball40dtw

      All I know is that I have a hard time explaining to my subordinate managers why they need to cut expenses (employees/hours) while my boss flew from Cleveland to Detroit on a private jet for a day to talk to them about cutting said expenses.

      • 0 avatar
        Landcrusher

        Give me more detail, and I can help. You can google around for articles on whether or not a private plane is a good investment for a company. The plane costs money if you use it or not, so perhaps it made sense before, less now, but it’s already there.

        Cutting the expenses of your group may be one of those budgeting and bookkeeping things as well. these things make little real world sense unless you speak financialese and have really poor judgement.

        OTOH, your boss may just be a jerk. He could just as well be redecorating his office, buying a new company car, paying an employee he likes to play with, etc. Business jets have become an emotional target like oil companies. Sure, we all believe that the price of oil is down due to economics, but if it goes up its a conspiracy led by Exxon.

        The jets often make great sense, but are also often an extravagance. Without detail on a companies needs and what level of plane they purchased, you really can’t make any judgements unless you are an idiot who equates jets with gold plated toilets.

        • 0 avatar
          bball40dtw

          My company uses NetJets. I’m not saying that it’s wrong for him to use a jet. However, the perception, in this instance, is just poor. Cleveland is less three hours away, he could have hired a black car. Based on airport locations and where he needed to be, the jet saved him all of 30 minutes.

          When I worked for a larger company, I had no issue with the CEO and other senior management traveling around on private jets. It was necessary to do business.

          We do need to cut expenses, but I can do that with attrition over the next two years in order to meet senior management’s long term goals. We are in a state of change currently, and until new technology is rolled out, expenses are going to have to be higher than anyone would like.

          • 0 avatar
            Landcrusher

            So your boss is making a bad decision. He could have also hired a king air instead of a jet. I think you understand all that, so your use of the phrase, “All I know”‘ likely wasn’t the best choice.

            I get your frustration, but my frustration is my industry getting used as a whipping boy by left wing press flacks and now Jack as well.

          • 0 avatar
            Lie2me

            The color suddenly isn’t so pretty when you get painted with the same broad brush you use on others?

            bbali40dtw’s boss is a dickhead if for no other reason then his insensitivity to the situation by flying a private jet to tell others to cut costs. Whether it made economic sense or not it was a douche bag move and made a lasting distasteful impression on the entire staff

            When you cry poor don’t do it from the window of your limo/mansion/private jet

          • 0 avatar
            Landcrusher

            Interesting accusation. Example?

            I’m not at all a fan of the broad brush. We are already arguing below where I pointed out the equivalent broad brushes to the one generally applied to libertarians and, IIRC, you objected to one of my examples that struck your nerve while ignoring the problems with the others. Now you want to throw this out?

          • 0 avatar
            bball40dtw

            Yeah, I’m not super fond of the guy. He is part of the reason the company has been profitable for such an extended period of time though. We have our disagreements, but that’s because I see people and he sees costs. I hope never find myself in a position where I view my employees as expenses first and people second. For now, the balance seems to work because I’ve lost more people than I’d like, but we’ve retained more than his numbers would like.

            My point was that CEOs and senior execs need to be more aware of taking a private/corporate jet looks. If he was flying to Northern Michigan or Wisconsin for the day, fine. Cleveland to Detroit is a waste.

          • 0 avatar
            Landcrusher

            Yes. It seems leadership is among the words that don’t mean what they are supposed to mean anymore. There are certainly perception issues with biz jets. My frustration is how that perception has become that they are not legitimate tools at all while the MSM don’t have similar reaction to what are more questionable expenses like the big charity pay to play clubs, corporate art collections, cronyism, etc.

            Enemy number one should be the board seat network. But nooooooo, the real problem is luxury jets which is code word for anything other than a coach seat being used by people we don’t approve of including a retired guy’s $25k antique Piper.

          • 0 avatar
            bball40dtw

            Landcrusher-

            I agree. I worked out in Southern AZ for awhile, and a plane was essential for getting to and from small towns in AZ and Mexico. Tucson to Globe, AZ or Cananea, MX is short that Detroit to Cleveland distance wise, but it takes way longer to get there.

    • 0 avatar
      FormerFF

      “Progressives would love for everyone to get the same pay…”

      Are you sure that’s what progressives want, or is that the strawman version of progressives that conservatives create? I’ve heard many progressive calls for less unequal pay. I’ve never heard anyone suggest that a barista should be paid the same as a surgeon, or any other call for absolute equality.

      • 0 avatar
        Pch101

        Some folks have difficulty understanding that progressive politics, liberalism and Marxism aren’t the same thing. Explaining it won’t help.

        • 0 avatar
          Lie2me

          It’s real easy, what you call “liberals” and “progressives” your parents called “communists” and “socialists” How both terms were applied were generally wrong 99% of the time and only made the user look like a stupid moron

          .

          Proceed…

          • 0 avatar
            Landcrusher

            The CPC has been pretty clear on being pro “economic justice” so you decide what progressives stand for and get back to me with a definition or you can agree I’m not being unfair.

          • 0 avatar
            Pch101

            As I said, explaining it won’t help.

            It’s not particularly bright to confuse a desire for a minimum wage increase with a single wage for everyone. But nobody on the internet can fix that.

          • 0 avatar
            Landcrusher

            That’s only one aspect of “economic justice, but you have no interest in using discussions here to illuminate anything as you have proven time and again so I’m not surprised you would try that sort of tactic.

      • 0 avatar
        Landcrusher

        So you guys agree Conservatives want to freeze the culture? No defenders there?

        If you don’t let the market set the wages, then you get the same result, failed utopia. Most people can’t make that distinction, which is why we still have big government progressives who think they are smart enough to run an economy. Note that there is never any definitive answer from progressives on what level of goods and services people ought to be entitled, nor what ratio of earnings should enforced and on what grounds one gets the higher vs the lower.

        This leaves the rest of us to think what they really want is the power to play with everything until it seems right to them while most of us believe the result of that is much less of everything good for everyone in the long run.

        You guys can save the claims of pragmatism and the labeling game. It’s old, tired, and worthless. Pragmatism is despotism in a shiny wrapper. I don’t want to be emperor, but if I am, I promise everything will be decided pragmatically (aka my way).

        • 0 avatar
          DeeDub

          So you guys agree Conservatives want to freeze the culture? No defenders there?

          That’s pretty much the root meaning of the word, isn’t it?

          • 0 avatar
            Landcrusher

            That’s the extreme. Conservatives also believe in freedom. Libertarians also believe in government. Progressives also believe in markets.

            The point is, libertarians are the only ones who consistently get painted as silly utopians.

        • 0 avatar
          Lie2me

          This was pretty lame now define “liberal” for me, it’s a slow day and I could use some more Fox-type entertainment

          Look kids a dancing conservative

          • 0 avatar
            Landcrusher

            The point is that there really are no accepted definitions unless you accept one sides or the other. My use here has not been out of line at all. Many self described progressives are for economic and/or social justice. The utopian extreme of that is economic equality. It’s a fair equivalency to the regular treatment of libertarians.

            Try using your sense of humor to get that rather than be flippant about it.

          • 0 avatar
            Landcrusher

            That was pretty flippant.

            Look kids, a snarky Internet post.

          • 0 avatar
            Lie2me

            I’m glad my intent was not lost on you

  • avatar

    “in part because this site was previously affiliated with a contributor who had strong ties to that industry.”

    Genuinely confused…?

  • avatar
    Roader

    What is the opposite of “unfettered”? “Fully fettered”? “Full fettered jacket”? Inquiring minds want to know.

    Payday lenders/title pawns are lenders of last resort. Legal lenders of last resort, anyway. The alternative is a loan shark whose collection methods are a bit more creative than suing in civil court.

  • avatar
    mkirk

    I spent my first few years of adulthood caught in the payday loan loop and would have probably been in the title loan loop as well had my cars not been basically worthless in those days. I had a knack for making really poor decisions with regards to money/women/what sports team would win/when to stop drinking.

    IIRC Florida capped the APR at like 29 percent or something for payday loans. I remember one shady place though that skirted this by selling you vouchers to buy from a catalog and letting you post date the check and write over the amount. This amounted to like a 300 percent APR and I never saw anyone redeem the vouchers. I tried once and she couldn’t find the catalog.

    However, i, like most folks in there had no business borrowing money. With great risk comes great APR. Then again I was never threatened with jail time but for all my faults the checks never bounced either.

    Now the note tote car lots were another story. Yes, I paid too much but i needed a car and the lot was always full of repos. We aren’t talking subprime car loans here…we are talking a loan to a 19 year old who drank and gambled too much. Of course the interest was very high but I got the car which eventually allowed me to get out of the mess. Point being the type of business Mr. Lang was in and the payday loan and title pawn businesses are not one in the same at least in how Mr. Lang’s business was represented here.

  • avatar
    bunkie

    $17.5 Million wont buy even half of a new Gulfstream. Perhaps is was a repo?

  • avatar
    DeadWeight

    I’m the most free market oriented person I know yet even I recognize & call out – (a) excessive greed/money-as-a-god-culture, and (b) scumbags – when it’s so obvious as to hit one in the nose.

    This business model is the manifestation of a sick society, despite Ruggles’ enthusiastic seal of approval.

    • 0 avatar
      sunridge place

      Maybe I missed something here…Ruggles is in favor of title lending?

      • 0 avatar
        Lie2me

        /sarcasm, there fixed it

        Ruggles would sell his mother into slavery if it moved a car off his lot

        • 0 avatar
          sunridge place

          This article isn’t about moving cars off new or used car lots. That was my point all along. Read the piece again please. It is about title loans. Do you understand the difference or not?

          • 0 avatar
            Lie2me

            It’s like a country song no matter how it starts someone is going to lose a truck in the end

            Do you think “Rent-to-Own” is about selling TVs?

          • 0 avatar
            DeadWeight

            I’m taking the liberty of paraphrasing, but Ruggles has opined on the incredible value title shops provide to the community, given the risk of the loan defaulting, and he would probably allow for microchipping of and repossession of internal organs as legal collateral for loans (ala Repo Men).

          • 0 avatar
            sunridge place

            ‘Loose’ a truck?

            No…lose a truck maybe. Most likely the truck will be runned over by a train.

          • 0 avatar
            Lie2me

            Great counterpoint, I’m impressed

            .

            /sarcasm

          • 0 avatar
            sunridge place

            Lie..you edited your ‘loose/lose’ error but my link didn’t make it in there. If you google john prine you’ve never even called me by my name you’ll get the rest of my post and also discover a great songwriter…and get my pickup joke..

  • avatar
    rudiger

    This sort of thing used to be called loan sharking and was illegal.

    Now, not so much.

  • avatar
    Mikein08

    What’s this?? Bending over the poor and the stupid?? Sacre Bleu!
    This has never happened before! Legislation! We need more legislation!

    This reeks of the usual faux liberal outrage.

    Not that I approve of bending over the poor and ignorant, mind you.
    It’s just that it’s too tempting because it’s so easy, and always will
    be.

    • 0 avatar
      05lgt

      But you’re missing half the point. They are spending your tax dollars in court costs and prison costs instead of paying enforcers to collect. The motion to continue if the defendant shows, contempt filing if the defendant doesn’t show dance needs to be stopped. One low paid lawyer who passed the bar on the fourth try can go through an awful lot of iterations, sending debtors to prison, and dollars to Gulfstream.

      • 0 avatar
        nickoo

        In many instances, they are being sent to private prisons which generate a profit for the owners (often shareholders as some are public). Often times these private prisons have contracts with the state for X number of prisoners at all times, giving incentive to keep growing the police state and unfair imprisonment sentences. Another symptom of a sick society.

      • 0 avatar

        The linked HuffPo article had nothing to do with filing continuances or holding debtors in contempt. They were payday lenders who were requiring borrowers to write postdated checks, then cashing the rubber checks when the borrowers didn’t pay. The lenders don’t actually want the borrowers to go to jail, they want someone from the government to show up on the borrower’s door and scare them into paying.

        Which really has nothing to do with title loans. AFAIK, they don’t require postdated checks, because they can always repo the car if the debt isn’t paid.

  • avatar
    nickoo

    This is just another sad result of the so-called elite selling out the poor, the working class, and the lower middle class. The median income peaked in 1968 and the typical American has been losing ground ever since, either through a terrible service oriented economy, selling out working class through free trade, stealing pensions and forcing people into the wall-street casino, ridiculous rise in the cost of college, “saving” a typical family 2400 annually through ACA (an Obama campaign promise), or tax laws that greatly favor the wealthy such as the way payroll (ssi/medicare) taxes work (Hint: It’s a tax that disproportionately affects those who make under 116,000), cap gains flat taxes, low inheritance taxes and loopholes, and an income tax structure that doesn’t reflect the reality of income distributions. Just wait, the next time we get a so-called fiscal conservative in there, they are going to cut on the backs of the poor and working class and tell you it’s for your own good, even Obama tried to do it with Chained CPI, socialist my a**. “Please sir, may I have another?”

    I think in the majority of instances these people know they are getting screwed, but that they don’t have any other alternative. I once had to take a personal loan to cover expenses associated with selling my house after getting surprised to find out my job was going away and I would have to move to stay employed. I called Discover Financial Services whom had coincidentally offered me a loan at 15%, I turned them down and told them it was too much. Then before I could get another loan, my house went under contract, I called them back and surprise! it’s now 20% for the same loan. F*^&ing crooks, I’ll never do business with them again.

    We are a sick society about 35 years past our glory days, the end of Bretton Woods II and the Vietnam war started the decline, Reaganomics and his tax reform bills accelerated it, only to be masked by a brief pause and inflated bubble in 90’s to come back with a Vengeance the last 15 years. This malaise is worse than anything that happened in the 70s and it isn’t going to end this time as the structural aspects of debt-serfdom are permanently entrenched for the lower half of the population. We are possibly in the last and greatest bubble of this age with the fed keeping interest rates artificially low, however, all things end, and when this one ends, reality will bite.

  • avatar
    nickoo

    This is just another sad result of the so-called elite selling out the poor, the working class, and the lower middle class. The median income peaked in 1968 and the typical American has been losing ground ever since, either through a terrible service oriented economy, selling out working class through free trade, stealing pensions and forcing people into the wall-street casino, ridiculous rise in the cost of college, “saving” a typical family 2400 annually through ACA (an Obama campaign promise), or tax laws that greatly favor the wealthy such as the way payroll (ssi/medicare) taxes work (Hint: It’s a tax that disproportionately affects those who make under 116,000), cap gains flat taxes, low inheritance taxes and loopholes, and an income tax structure that doesn’t reflect the reality of income distributions. Just wait, the next time we get a so-called fiscal conservative in there, they are going to cut on the backs of the poor and working class and tell you it’s for your own good, even Obama tried to do it with Chained CPI, socialist my a**. “Please sir, may I have another?”

    I think in the majority of instances these people know they are getting screwed, but that they don’t have any other alternative. I once had to take a personal loan to cover expenses associated with selling my house after getting surprised to find out my job was going away and I would have to move to stay employed. I called Discover Financial Services whom had coincidentally offered me a loan at 15%, I turned them down and told them it was too much. Then before I could get another loan, my house went under contract, I called them back and surprise! it’s now 20% for the same loan. F*^&ing crooks, I’ll never do business with them again.

    We are a sick society about 35 years past our glory days, the end of Bretton Woods II and the Vietnam war started the decline, Reaganomics and his tax reform bills accelerated it, only to be masked by a brief pause and inflated bubble in 90’s to come back with a Vengeance the last 15 years. This malaise is worse than anything that happened in the 70s and it isn’t going to end this time as the structural aspects of debt-serfdom are permanently entrenched for the lower half of the population. We are possibly in the last and greatest bubble of this age with the fed keeping interest rates artificially low, however, all things end, and when this one ends, reality will bite.

  • avatar
    StaysCrunchy

    Back in 1998-1999ish, I worked as a salesman at a small buy here-pay here type lot. It was a fairly up-and-up operation, but we shared the lot with another dealer (we had 15 to 20 cars at any one time and he had about 5 or 6) who was your stereotypical slimy underhanded used car salesman. Anyway, one day he came in and pulled all his cars off the lot unexpectedly and shipped them off to the auction. He said he was giving up on “lot” sales because he had a deal with one of the local Indian tribes to set up a title loan operation out of a shack (the size of one of those drive-through espresso places… or 1-hour photo shacks if you’re as old as me) in the parking lot of their casino! I never saw nor heard from him again, and he never did set up his little loan-shark-shack, but my God can you imagine how much money an operation like that could rake in???

  • avatar
    Wade.Moeller

    I’ve used payday loans in Mississippi and title loans in Nevada and Texas. The finance fees were cheap for the Mississippi and Nevada loans, far cheaper then the financial penalties that we faced for not having the money we borrowed. They were also paid off quickly and easily. The subscribe to the same train of thought as the other major financial institutions in those states, the casinos. You are already going to make money, ripping people off will just shutdown any future business.

    Texas was a different story. You don’t deal with the company loaning the money, you deal with their agent. When you go to make a reasonable payment, you also have to pay the agent to take the payment which was several times larger then the payment amount. Add in interest from the time of last payment and your large payment would only reduce the balance owed a tiny amount. They subscribe to the other major financial institutions in the state, the banks. Rip off the customers now and you won’t care if they come back later.

  • avatar
    olddavid

    This whole dilemma makes me wonder whether to laugh or cry. All the listed practices were once the expertise of semi-organized crime. The local bookie of 1960 would do what OTB does today. He also had a daily number lotto that paid better than the state does now. The multi-state powerball is a fleece job not even Meyer Lansky would have dreamed up at his peak. The local money lender had two guys with thick necks who applied force for collection – in my view a much more honest system than the cynical use of the courts to subjugate the poor. This whole mess stinks of corruption by the money that our “supreme court” has deemed free speech. Thirty years ago I came upon a young woman holding two children in a local mall crying. She had no home, her car had died and she was exhausted from a day of hearing bad news from all outlets of aid. That she would have signed an agreement to sell her right kidney to alleviate the suffering of her children should not come as a surprise to any parent. The real crime is that our society has decreed this woman’s problem is a moral failing not deserving of help. That day, $500 and the loan of an old car changed her life. To give legal cover to a vulture who would knowingly aggravate this desperate situation is beyond cruel. And a majority of this country identifies as Christian? That woman has operated her own business for 25 years. At one time or another, everyone needs a helping hand. Everyone.

    • 0 avatar
      Landcrusher

      The problem isn’t lobbying. The problem is voters who keep voting for the guys who are easily bought off. If the voters started throwing out each easily bought legislator and we still had a problem, then you might have a point.

      Furthermore, your mom in the mall is not necessarily deserving of anything. She doesn’t have to be deserving for the lack of charitable aid to be a societal failure, but telling her she deserves help and the government should provide it is a great way to buy votes directly from the voters.

      I remember when middle class people were more forthcoming in situations like this, and I can’t understand why the constant impulse is for more and more government when more and more keeps getting the same results or worse. Instead of restricting religion in schools it was replaced with secular humanism. Instead of promoting charity, it’s replaced with redistribution. Instead of moderate regulation and standards we have mandated cars that can’t easily be repaired. All these apply to your example, yet every similar problem results in a knee jerk for more government interference and regulation.

      People usually torture the adage about repeating things that fail, but it seems to apply here.

      • 0 avatar
        DeadWeight

        Legislative & regulatory agency capture by corporate multinationals has been accomplished in the U.S, just as it has in the UK.

        Many would argue judiciary branch capture has been accomplished, also, and looking at the many close ties such a huge % of high level state & federal judges (or their spouses or other immediate family members) have with corporations, I’m inclined to tend to agree.

  • avatar
    CJinSD

    Are we blaming capitalism because union teachers indoctrinate instead of educate? Are we blaming capitalism because government-controlled resources aren’t put to productive uses that support the working class? Are we blaming capitalism because people spend money on things they feel entitled to without earning them? Capitalism is just a word thrown on private property by someone that wanted to take it away without being held accountable. It may have been the first exercise of Grubering.

    • 0 avatar
      bunkie

      We’re not blaming capitalism. At least, I’m not. I would argue that usurious lending is exceptionally damaging to true capitalism because it diverts investment money to lazy, non-productive uses.

      All this crap about union teachers and the usual shallow blather really misses the point: you can’t have real capitalism without fair markets. That only happens when you have well-reasoned regulation. And regulating markets is a legitimate role of the government. Sixteen years of working on Wall Street have convinced me that the markets need to be protected from the runaway greed that seeks to create unfair advantage. I believe that capitalism, properly nurtured, it is the most efficient means of creating better living conditions for all. But allowing the wealthiest (who are some of the main investors in these usurers) to divert their capital to this practice perverts the very spirit of capitalism.

      The damage done by the practice is twofold: it provides a very large barrier to entry to the middle class, thereby limiting the size of consumer markets. Second, it siphons money away from the sorts of investments that create overall market growth.

      Finally, it saps the spirit. We love our shibboleths, that “hard work” alone is good enough, that this is the land of opportunity for all, etc. Allowing usurious lending is counter to those notions we claim to hold dear.

      • 0 avatar
        Landcrusher

        +1

      • 0 avatar
        Lie2me

        “All this crap about union teachers and the usual shallow blather really misses the point”

        CJinSD only knows “shallow blather” because that’s what he listens to and watches all day. If it wasn’t for shallow blather he’d have no blather at all

        • 0 avatar
          PrincipalDan

          “It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.” – Winston Churchill

          I personally feel that way about most of the “systems” we employ. Capitalism is the worst form of economics except all the others that have been tried.

          That doesn’t mean we can’t criticize it. It doesn’t mean that it can’t be improved. It doesn’t mean that all systems don’t have their abuses and corruptions.

          Thinking that capitalism and democracy are worthy systems doesn’t mean that we have to worship them as if they are unblemished messiahs that bathe the world in a perfect white light.

          Every right (even economic ones) come with limits. My right to swing my arm ends where your face begins. My right to make a profit shouldn’t include destroying my fellow citizens.

          • 0 avatar
            CJinSD

            I agree with most of what you’ve written, except the people that take 5000% loans were destroyed long before they walked through the door of a title loan shark’s shop.

    • 0 avatar
      Roader

      “Are we blaming capitalism because union teachers indoctrinate instead of educate?”

      Yes.

  • avatar
    -Nate

    Thanx Old David .

    These days it’s very tough to be a Conservative .

    I am but I know what the word means unlike most who hide behind it .

    -Nate

  • avatar
    an innocent man

    The guys who run these companies might be absolute scumbags, but no grief for some of the borrowers? In the NYT article, the guy from Austin borrowed money to repair his ’08 Audi that he uses, while in college. A) You bought an Audi without planning for repairs? B) You bought an Audi, In college? If you bought it new while in school, shoulda got a Toy and paid towards loans with the savings. If you bought it used while in school, well, is anyone that stupid able to get into a school?

  • avatar
    tjh8402

    apologies for any grammar errors – my browser is acting up so some things may not be going where I intend them.

    I’ll happily carry the banner of Libertarianism then and say that as odious as some of these practices may seem, it isn’t the government’s job to protect people from their own poor decisions. How much $ have governments made off of low income people buying lottery tickets? Or legalized gambling in those jurisdictions that allow it? People have to be adults and take responsibility. and no, I’m not some grumpy old man…unless 30 is the new 60.

    The private jet reference is a cheap shot. As someone who has worked in General Aviation for 7 and a half years, I’ll admit I’ve seen lavish abuses of private aviation. On the other hand, I’ve seen it be an indispensible tool for business for everyone from top CEOs to mid level engineers, local managers, sales reps, or small business owners. Just like we shouldn’t blame guns for people that abuse them, let’s not clump the responsible and irresponsible users of private jets together such that we make ownership and operation of a private aircraft the vice. The trickle down effect of private aviation is also huge. it’s an industry that kept food on my (working class) kitchen table, and those of many other people. My paycheck took a hit when Obama made private jet owners public enemy number 1, although not nearly as badly as those who worked the assembly lines in the (largely American dominated and centered) private jet manufacturing sector.

    Also, you’ll be lucky to get a (new) Gulfstream for $17.5 million. That might get you in a G150, which is not really a true Gulfsrea, (its a midsize category Israel Aircraft Industries Astra that’s been updated by Gulfstream). $17.5 million puts you squarely in the midsize jet market whose premium luxury features vs cheaper planes are such over the top niceties as flush toilets, on board air conditioning that can work independent of ground power, and enough range to cross the country without stopping (assuming no headwinds and you don’t fill the seats and baggage compartment). You might get a microwave to reheat your food too. The $25 million G280 is another IAI legacy product, although it has been substantially reegineered by Gulfstream. The cheapest designed and built by Gulfstream model is the G450, which is over $40 million.

    • 0 avatar
      Lie2me

      The G450 that Justin Bieber supposedly bought was 60 million, must have a couple of options

      • 0 avatar
        tjh8402

        @Lie2me – either there was a misprint in the story or Bieber was taken to the cleaners by the Gulfstream sales rep. The top of the line best bizjet in the world flagship G650 carries a list price of $64.5 million (if you’re willing to wait a few years to get one. Used ones are trading hands for about $75 million for those that won’t wait). In between the G650 and the G450 is the G550 which is about $55 million, so $60 million for a G450 is way overspending (and used G450s aren’t appreciating like G650s; the most expensive G450 listed on Controller is a 2013 with only 74 hours for $31 million).

        • 0 avatar
          Lie2me

          Lol, I remember as a kid a friend’s father was shopping for a corporate jet and I remember looking at the brochures he brought home and the Gulfstream (I don’t remember the model) was 3 million. That I remember

  • avatar
    tjh8402

    @Lie2me – Sounds like a GII. I was able to find an article from the June 1972 issue of Business & Commercial Aviation that quotes a $3.2 million base price and $4 million typically equipped. Prices may have been a bit lower when the airplane debuted in the mid sixties. The GII was the first actual Gulfstream jet. The original Grumman Gulfstream I was a turboprop.

    http://compair.aviationresearch.com/database_files/TheImage_175.pdf

  • avatar
    -Nate

    Welcome to the NEW America :

    Land of ‘ I got mine SCREW you and everyone else .

    -Nate

    • 0 avatar
      mmmach1

      No but unfortunately you cant regulate stupid. You could make them put up a sign 10 feet tall telling customers “YOUR GETTING HOSED!!!”

      Guess what they would still do it. Shut them down and they would still find someone else to cheat them. Nothing new about it.

      • 0 avatar
        Lie2me

        Life must be real easy for you, imagine never once getting screwed over on anything. Must be great to be you

        • 0 avatar
          Landcrusher

          Or, imagine not thinking government was the solution for everything in spite being victimized.

          In this case, even I think regulation is helpful, but I’m on the side of something clever, like having the state not help collect, rather than making these scumbags another excuse to add a binders worth of regulations.

  • avatar
    mmmach1

    There is a difference between being screwed over and wallowing in something that happening that maybe you didn’t like. Your phone bill was high? Your cable bill had an extra charge? Had to pay a doc fee on a car? LOL that’s nothing. I think your the kind of person that goes looking for little problems to complain about.
    I didn’t say life was ever easy for me. I had to work hard but that’s part of living. Have a nice evening.

    • 0 avatar
      Lie2me

      Lots of people work hard then lose it all due to health issues or a sudden loss of a job and find themselves desperate for cash, but get no sympathy from the likes of you. Maybe it’s my bleeding heart that wants to help the less fortunate find a way back. At least I have a heart to bleed

      Enjoy the rest of your idyllic 1950s TV sitcom life

      • 0 avatar
        mmmach1

        Bleeding Heart? You? LOL well you sure had me fooled.

        Lie2me: “Wanting to save mankind,one smartass quip at a time.”

        Oh as for enjoying the rest of my idyllic 1950s TV sitcom life. I’m more like a 70s,80s type guy. Don’t worry about me enjoying myself though. I do,everyday. My biggest problem is deciding what to do today. Cant use my pool this time of year, probably go to the gym and work out for awhile. Then tinker with one of my classic cars. I’m glad to know your here wringing your hands and doing your part trying to save the world from the likes of evil Pawn Brokers.

        Let me guess I’m thinking your more of a Hardcore Pawn (more drama) than Pawn Stars type guy.

        • 0 avatar
          Lie2me

          I enjoy working on my two antique Cadillacs as well, gave up the pool and lakefront homes years ago for one overlooking the 9th fairway (public course). As far as that other stuff, if it’s TV related I’m afraid you’ve caught me at a disadvantage, I don’t own a TV.

          Enjoy your regularly scheduled programing day

          • 0 avatar
            mmmach1

            LOL Lie2me typical Liberal phony. House one 9th fairway, previous pool and lakefront property, several antique Cadillacs (must be old fart) but disses the rich. Runs down Fox News but owns no TV. How do you watch MSNBC?? Probably has stock from this title pawn operation or one like it in his portfolio.

            Lie2me,looking out for the little people. Ya right!

  • avatar
    JimC2

    Ladies, ladies! Why can’t we all just get along?

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