Sandoval, Musk Announce Tesla Gigafactory To Be Built In Nevada

@canddmeyer - Taxpayers may be tired but those writing the cheques aren't.

I have a really hard time understanding how this can be a bad deal for NV taxpayers. It's not as if the $1.3 billion would otherwise have been handed back to them. It is a bad deal for other smart entrepreneurs who would otherwise have an even shot at competing with Tesla. But aren't famous enough to have politicians give them the favored treatment. And hence, in the long run, it is a bad deal for science and engineering, and a good deal for vanity and grift. But what else is new in this Dystopian age?

@stuki Wow...The hyperbole actually got up off the page and smacked me. Good lord, dystopian age? You live in a western state with a standard of living so many factors greater than every other non-first world country and factors greater than our ancestors a century ago. The only decrease in our standard of living has been the transfer of wealth upwards due to a complete turn around of tax system that transferred the burden of payments from corporations and the rich en masse unto the middle-class and poor. If you want to jam fingers in faces aim those puppies back in the mirror because it is exactly people like you who cite some fairytale of 'free market' ideology that allows the people in power to sell these ideas.

@Xeranar "..... the people in power to sell these ideas." Xer, it's the people in power who provide the jobs. It certainly isn't "the middle-class and poor." All "the middle-class and poor" want to do is enjoy participating in the profits without risking or suffering the agony of the losses, if any. Job creators can always find labor to do the work. The US space program proved they could train a monkey to do the work in a space capsule. I understand your motivation and ideals, but "the middle-class and poor" derive their employment from "the people in power." It's always been that way. If "the middle-class and poor" could have done anything constructive on their own, they would have done so decades ago. Those who can, DO! Those who can't, teach. That's the reality -- this Elon Musk Nevada venture is no different. It will provide upwards of 6500 full-time jobs when fully implemented, to people highly qualified and motivated to work in this industry. And I think that is a good thing, even if it is not in my state of New Mexico.

@highdesertcat I'm not in the mood, HDC, your fantasy argument about how capitalists risk it all has no basis in reality. In fact the kind of capital class investments you're talking about largely come from that middle class and poor you equate with unimaginative and risk averse through their pension funds and fruits of their production. Elon Musk can have all the cool ideas he wants, if he lost Tesla it wouldn't have been his fortune, it would have been institutional investor fortunes, pension funds and such, paying the price. In fact the difference between small business owners and these types is dramatic. The history of corporate America is littered with people who kept blowing through huge investments and keep getting to try again (Trump is a prime example). They aren't 'better people' or more 'willing to risk it all' because they're never at risk of losing it all. If Joe Blow opens a bakery he can go bankrupt and lose his house. If Tesla fails Elon Musk simply moves on to his next project leaving his investors high and dry. So stop trying to sell me a lie, you know I'm not buying and while I appreciate you're so self-deluded I try to remain in the firm confines of reality.

@highdesertcat "I’m not in the mood, HDC" Ah.. meeting with your department chair, eh?

@Xeranar "The only decrease in our standard of living has been the transfer of wealth upwards due to a complete turn around of tax system that transferred the burden of payments from corporations and the rich en masse unto the middle-class and poor. " Like a billionaire getting highly publicized tax breaks not available to anyone else, you mean? The best way to make societies better, less dystopian, is to get rid of burdens. Not transfer them around to "other people." Just like tax breaks are good for Musk, they are good for everyone else too. Poor, rich, corporations, gayscouts what have you. Good, period.

@highdesertcat Petezeiss - What about my department chair? I technically have two, one I work for as a visiting professor and my home University's. I'm actually in line to be elected to the department chair when I return if I want it and as far as I know I'm rather well liked in both departments. But then again the people I work with choose to be educated on the core theories and have research to back their views compared to the general 'talking out of your ass' assumptions passed around in these circles. But if your best was merely making an ad hominem remark at the fact that I didn't particularly feel like hearing HDC's moral economics argument about how the capitalist class are some how the risk takers though basic research proves otherwise I pity you. You do realize this is the internet, right? You go back to your sales job and bitch about the president and I go back to my classroom and I teach objective facts using scientific methodology to indicate probability and likelihoods. When people actually want to make educated decisions on policy they call me, not you. So why would I give a damn about your petty ad hominem attack? I just felt like you needed to understand how much of a gnat you are in relative terms since you felt like you had the power to attack me as an individual.

@highdesertcat Xer, I respect your convictions and beliefs. I don't share them, but that is what makes the world go 'round. Before you label someone as being self-deluded, you may want to consider the decline in union memberships over time, since its peak. Having been born into and grown up in a two-union household, I can tell you my parents were happier after they were able to change jobs and get out of their respective unions. And..... they got to keep more of their hard-earned money for themselves. Let me stress here, I believe that it is up to the employees themselves to decide for whether or not they want union representation. Seems to me the smarter ones are choosing to opt out.

@stuki I'm with you in concept, Stuki, I'm just going to disagree with the policies used to reach them. :)

@stuki Xeranar, if it is so easy to make enourmous amount money as a capitalist why most people choose to make miserable amount of money hard way? It sounds kind of counter intuitive to what we know about human nature (greed). How your superior "science" explains that - that 99% of people are dumb? May be that is the explanation.

@stuki Who said making enormous amounts of money was easy for everybody? If you look at how the economy is divided only a very small number of people at the top are allowed to throw around money as the Capitalist Class. If anything it's actually very hard to make money in a capitalist system because the capitalist is always leeching off the productivity of others. My labor is not my own, if I work for say a private business as an HR contractor to help settle labor disputes, the difference in my productivity to benefit the company versus my pay is dramatic. The Capitalist class gets a small slice out of everybody's actions within their system. So regardless of intellect unless you can reach a position that allows you free access to investment markets or a sizable backer reaching the exponential profits of Elon Musk or Donald Trump is basically a pipe dream for most Americans. It doesn't mean that the people on top don't weight the balance to their favor in elections by positioning themselves on social issues and straining the privately held media to keep discussing their topics in a favorable light. America, Britain, and Canada are really the only countries where Capitalism is largely unfettered and they suffer for it and they create these completely unsustainable situations by choice. So 99% of the people aren't stupid but most are held in check by being given just enough to keep them willing to work in a system that is obviously broken. HDC - Unions peaked during WWII, since then they've been fought against by the capitalist class and as industrial unions have suffered losses service unions and white-collar jobs have been slow to develop unionization even though at this point the majority of white collar jobs would be considered for unionization for the uniformity of work expected. The argument over 'smart' or 'dumb' based on some conscious decision making process is already oversimplified simply because of the previous statement. Never mind the historical backlash and willful fighting and resistance presented by companies like Wal-Mart who would rather outsource and shut down whole segments of the store to stop unionization. Chattanooga is just another example in the string of battles being had because a political party has willfully decided to be anti-labor and has used this reasoning to make unfounded economic arguments about it.

@stuki "So regardless of intellect unless you can reach a position that allows you free access to investment markets or a sizable backer reaching the exponential profits of Elon Musk or Donald Trump is basically a pipe dream for most Americans. " DO you know that Musk was immigrant as anyone else? Or Jobs did not have access to anything to make money? Or Ford, Gates, HP and on and on. They did not have any privileges other than higher than usual intelligence, desire to work hard and take risk (with other people money but who need to be smart to do that). But wait until intelligence can be enhanced - it is interesting because those who will be able to afford intelligence enhancement will move ahead initially. But eventually price will go down.

@stuki Seriously? You're going to puff up and pull the completely threadbare and broken down 'American Dream' argument in the face of a huge historical argument against them? They're literally the exceptions that prove the rule. Elon Musk - Brilliant South African who came from money. Went to preparatory school, graduated from Wharton School of Business at University of Pennsylvania. By far his connections to the wealthy and elites in these locations opened many a door for him. I'm actually not diminishing his intellect since it was and is massive. But he got there by already having a step up far over most Americans. Steve Jobs - Parents didn't have money, his step into the world of elite power was by entering the industry before any major player was relevant in it and exploited greater intellects like Steve Wozniak. His relationship with Atari opened up doors to the fledging industry backers and if Apple hadn't been lucky in the initial bonanza he wouldn't have had access to the later capitalist backers that put him back into authority at Apple. Never mind that again his best 'skills' were improving on designs already established and developing social cache with electronics. Not undeservedly but he wasn't exactly building a world by himself. Ford - Similar to Jobs. Basically had a good idea when an industry didn't exist. He relied on heavy-investors to build FoMoCo 3 separate times. If I had a shed and a great car idea I doubt I could repeat Ford's success because the industry is stabilized. It doesn't mean there aren't new industries but not 320 MILLION new industries for us all to exploit in the same way. Gates - Family of wealth, worked with Jobs in a burgeoning industry, didn't really risk much except a small amount of capital and then landed a sweetheart contract with IBM on DOS. HP - Mind as well just repeat the same arguments for Ford & Jobs. They got into a new undeveloped field and basically got lucky before stable labs took over the innovation in the field. In the end all of your citations essentially prove that unless you're born into wealth or privilege (Musk, Gates) or land in a developing industry where you can be essentially a founder of it (Ford, HP, Jobs, Gates). They weren't really risking anything, all of them had either major investors into the next step OR were investing some of their limited capital but mostly their time into these fledgling industries. The internet land grab is pretty much at an end, there will be new developers but the goal now is to be bought by Google, Facebook, or Amazon...etc.. It doesn't mean that most people aren't willing to take risks but you can't tell me that these people who have had major investment put into their firms compare to an average small business owner who leverage their house and basically their entire life for a single-location business in a developed industry.

@stuki So you basically want a society where people who do not go to college or business school, do not have good communication skills, are not able to establish good business relationship and convince investors, have no faith in American dream, constantly bitch about capitalism and believe only in redistribution of wealth to become multimillionaires and success stories? This society may only exists in your dreams. It is not scientific.

TomHend, doesn't matter. This deal provides jobs for Americans, in America. Nevada and the US government will collect far greater than the $6B in tax breaks provided Tesla, in the long run (i.e 5, 10, or 15 years). I wonder if someone, somewhere at some liberal University, has done an analyses of the break-even point for the $6B. I suspect that companies, like Tesla, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Mercedes, BMW, Subaru, Hyundai/KIA and VW, do such an analysis, in-house, and that the numbers figure hugely in their decision of where to open up a plant (and for how long).

Any time you have a society where the ability to talk to a politician, increases as your wealth increases; you have crony capitalism. Tesla needs $6B in tax breaks, just the same as I do. And everyone else does. We're all equal in that respect. The only difference being, in dystopian hellholes, some are more equal than others.

@highdesertcat The deal also reduces the ability for entrepreneurs who could build batteries cheaper and more efficiently that Tesla to get funding. That which is not seen, as Bastiat figured out so long ago. Of course, in dystopias brimpacked with economic illiterates....., huh??? Government directing economic, or for that matter any, activity is never good. Five year plans telling whom what to do didn't work in the long run either. And neither will deciding who should and should not make batteries. Of course, a century of near universal publicly funded indoctrination, has left a population so devoid of even the most basic concepts of anything whatsoever, that it pays off for some schmuck of a pol to prance around on stage with his billionaire pal proclaiming he can do just that. Without nary a droneling batting an eyelid over the idiocy of it all.

@stuki I agree, but has this not been the result of every major society?

stuki, you're right, it does short-circuit those who could build batteries cheaper and more efficiently. However, Elon is ready to commit now. The others are not. It was tried with A123, and that failed miserably, although the Chinese got a real good deal on that venture. Coupled with Fisker, the Chinese could be producing their own EVs before Elon ships his first Nevada-built battery.

@highdesertcat If The government gave KMart a few hundred billion in breaks and incentives, Walmart wouldn't for long bother being ready for anything, either. Just like, when the government hands the banks infinite amounts of money at no cost at all, banks won't bother ever getting ready to pay savers a dime for their deposits. Ensuring savers won't save, but rather burn every penny on childish home remodels and expansions that are at best breaking even as value creation goes. All deals like this accomplish, is shifting wealth away from people who actually invent and create things, and towards people who lobby and get lobbied. Musk may well have been somewhat of an inventor at some point, but in this case, he showed his shareholders he can make them more billions by playing the crony game, than by building the best and cheapest product he can. That will not, since it can not, fail to hurt the country/world as a whole in the long run.

I suspect there's a bit of lithium in Nevada as well. No doubt logistics played a big part in this decision as Reno is located within easy rail-road access from the Tesla assembly plant, Oakland Harbor and the Nevada lithium deposits.

@HDC Just recently the largest lithium deposit was found in Wyoming. I do think this has more to do with dollars and cents and subsidies/handouts. As I've stated Musk is a leech on the American economy. Without his Space, EVs, etc, he'd be a nothing. He couldn't survive without handouts, he's one of America's largest recipients of welfare. I detest this. I wonder if any Musk venture can function without the huge direct and indirect handouts involved. The problem with these types of handouts it will end up like the chicken tax and create inefficiencies to protect a segment of industry rather than the industry standing on it's own two feet.

@Big Al from Oz BAFO, there's a rich history of these types of handouts in America, among them GM, Chrysler and the UAW in 2009. Before that it was all sorts of entrepreneurial ventures, going all the way back to the building of the rail roads. Long history! With the exception of A123, Solyndra and other failed government handjobs to buddies of the administration in power, most of them created jobs, wealth and a feeling of prosperity. Shrub did the same for Big Oil, et al. Elon's Space-X is a thinly disguised cover for Israel's Ballistic Missile program, underwritten by the US. If Space-X can deliver a Dragon capsule to an orbiting space station, they can deliver a nuclear warhead to a stationary Tehran. Why do you think Iran is trying so hard to develop their own offensive capabilities?

@HDC, The US military doesn't require Musk at all. You guys have sh!t that you could only dream of. Tehran?? Geez, I don't think the Iranians are as capable as made out to be. Like Putin at the moment, he's playing poker in the old Soviet fashion. Perception driven by politics. The West only has to stand and knock on these guys doors and you will see the house of cards fall. Why do we not attack Iran? They are causing much grief with the Russians, for different reasons. The Russians are stirring up problem to inflate the cost of energy, their economy is dependent on this. The Iranians/Shites and the Sunnies. This is a political problem created by us in the West. We made Western boundaries for them to live within, except, the boundaries were laid out for political and economic gain for the West. Now we have a problem to resolve......partly of our own making.

@highdesertcat What is Tesla then - thinly disguised cover for Israel's electrified wheeled missile program to bring destruction and misery to Palestinian people and Gigafactory coverup for making nuclear warheads for Israel?