By on February 14, 2013

Dear Steve & Sajeev,

For 14 years I have owned a 1998 Ford Windstar Northwoods Edition with the indomitable 3.8 Liter engine. I love this van! It’s been so reliable. $38,000 and 4 transmissions later, and old rusty is still trucking. Only had to do 4 head gaskets.

AAA absolutely loves towing my vehicle. The tow truck operator and I are nearly best friends now. The autoparts store employees know my vehicle year/model immediately as soon as I walk in the door.

This Windstar is a known commodity in my town. When I turn right, everyone knows now to move out of my way before the vehicle stalls and I lose my power steering. My bottom is permanently embedded into the comfortable 1/4″ padded seat.

My question is, “Where can I find another car with such outstanding reliability?” Here are a few highlights of my Ol’ Reliable…

  • 4 transmissions.
  • 4 head gaskets.
  • 2 engine overhauls.
  • Umpteen O2 sensors.
  • Various engine sensors.
  • Cupholders are perfect!
  • Body panels are non-existent as of 5 years ago (rust).

So what should I get? As you can tell by the $38,000 I spent, I am more than happy to invest in the right vehicle. Thanks!

Steve Says:

Gosh, this answer is as easy as rebuilding a Northstar V8. A job that only takes about three days and a fervent level of prayer.

Come to think of it, I would focus specifically on the late 1990’s vehicles since you apparently have a soft spot for them.

The Cadillac Deville and Seville of that era would easily offer the same fuel economy and comparable mechanical longevity. Oh, before I forget. Ignore the Escalade and everything else with a 350. That engine is pure junk!

Then you have the game changing late-90’s Dodge Intrepid and Chrysler Concorde with the tough as nails 2.7 Liter engine. I once bought a 2002 model that was owned by the Salvation Army since day one and had the oil changed religiously every 3,000 miles. It lasted exactly 95,000 miles. Apparently they take to longevity the same way that Richard Simmons takes to pussy.

I think a 1998 model would be about as good as it gets. They rarely go for more than $600 at the auctions and you see them at every auction here in Georgia. A very popular vehicle and surprisingly affordable.

Perhaps you want a more sophisticated car. Maybe something a bit more rare and exotic. How about a Daewoo? I don’t see too many of them out and about anymore. I’m sure the lucky owners must be keeping them in the garage in the hopes that they become the next Barrett-Jackson collectible.

There was a beautiful white Daewoo Nubira wagon at an impound auction in my town a few years back with only 41k miles. The bidding was downright furious that day.  In the very last minute, the guy who started the bidding at $100 was outdone by yours truly. Thanks to an intimidating wink of an eye which raised the bidding to a stratospheric $110. I remember that I gave him a wry smile with a wink that showed no mercy. He never made eye contact with me again.

Anyhow, I went to try to find an engine for it and you know what? None of the junkyards will sell one to you! It’s that valuable! I think the guys hording those engines are the same ones that won’t let me find a transmission for my 5-cylinder 1993 VW Eurovan.

So if it were me, I would go for the 1999 Daewoo Nubira wagon. Make sure you get the automatic.

You’re welcome.

Sajeev answers:

Steve has this all wrong: how can someone that made me laugh hard enough to cry while typing in WordPress trade up from that sweet-ass Ford Windstar?

You need a BMW 7-series (E38), Mercedes S-class (W140 or W220) or Audi A8 (Type 4D) to really max out your “bang for the buck.” By “buck” I mean the money you give people in your community who thrive by fixing horrible vehicles, horribly.  And by “bang” I mean any of the popular component failures that make doing a motor swap on a 3.8L Ford look like child’s play.

The fully depreciated–yet top drawer–German Sedans have it all for you!

  • There’s the air of sophistication and class of a Northwoods Edition Ford product, but more of it!
  • The imminent failure of sensors and modules, at prices exponentially higher than O2 sensors!
  • A single engine/transmission wear item that leads to a rebuild or replacement: costing as much as a not-shitty, fully machined, replacement 3.8L long block from Jasper with enough money left over to replace the radiator and water pump.
  • I have no German counterpoint for FWD minivan transaxles. Any of them!  How sad for me!

But, ask yourself, what’s the icing on the cake I’m offering you?

The Windstar’s cupholders are fine, but it’s a safe bet these uber-lux sedans have non-functional beverage holders!

Now do us all a solid and make sure you buy one from the creepiest person on Craigslist and insist on a complete lack of service records too!  BAM SON, you done won at the Out-Windstar-My-Windstar game!

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68 Comments on “New or Used? Help Me Find My Old Love Edition...”

  • avatar

    Don’t know about cars but there is a bridge in New York that I can get you a great deal on…….

    • 0 avatar

      Since you are a glutton for punishment, I’d suggest getting two vehicles — a Range Rover and a Jaguar XJ. I’m sure you can get one of each for $38,000 with money left for bus fare. The chances of one running while the other is in the shop waiting for parts would rival your Windstar.

  • avatar

    I love the re-purposing of the phrase “bang for your buck.” And the re-purposing of an old V12-powered 7-Series as an educational grant foundation.

    Think of all the mechanics whose children will be able to go to college and grad school thanks to that V12.

    With their degrees, they’ll secure well-paying jobs that will one day finance other old German V12-powered luxury sedans, and the cycle will continue.

  • avatar

    Now I am insanely jealous! I sold my 1995 Windstar in 2002 with the original transmission and original head gasket! Every other part in the van, including the cup holders, had been replaced….at least once. Tire longevity was especially fine. The Michelin or Pirellis would last upwards of 8,000 miles with only every other month rotation and alignment.
    I especially miss the lingering smell of coolant which filled the cabin, courtesy of a leak in the heater core.
    That repair allowed my mechanic to provide orthodontic braces to TWO of his children.

  • avatar

    I would keep it. You can enhance your ownership experience by loosening some random bolts, lugnuts, belts and hoses, just to see what happens. Post the videos on YouTube, and use the ad revenue to buy more parts.

  • avatar

    One suggestion: Mercedes R-class.

  • avatar

    My folks had a 1995 Windstar, first one in the State of Maine. An utter debacle of a car. So they bought a 2002. Which was just as bad. That one got cash for clunkered – my Grandfather offered to do the killing personally!

  • avatar

    Richard Simmons line: Inspired and factual choice of words.

  • avatar

    With that many blown transmission, I first thought you were talking about the early Mercedes 5 speed coupled to any of the V8s. Come to think of it, you could get a Mercedes R-class! The R63 AMG would make you the proud owner of something truly unusual, and the transmissions were (mostly) working better by the time the 63 hit the streets with 450+ horses.

  • avatar

    “The Cadillac Deville and Seville of that era would easily offer the same fuel economy and comparable mechanical longevity.”

    I just turned down a gorgeous ’99 Deville/48k/$5,000 and reading sarcasm from an accomplished dealer such as yourself makes me smile and think “phew”.

    • 0 avatar

      You chose well. The head gaskets issues got fixed in the 2002+ models.

      • 0 avatar

        Thanks, I enjoy pats on the back the one or two times a year I do something right. The same day I did pick up a creampuff ’93 Volvo 240 though :)

        I heard 2004 on the Northstar “fixes”. More than likely if I ever get another Cadillac beyond the 70s it will be a 4.9.

      • 0 avatar

        You guys and myself are in the same boat – I have seriously, seriously been tempted by a number of Northstar-powered Caddies (that glorious V8 exhaust sound when you kick it down on the highway is the siren song of cars), but so far have always been able to talk myself out of it before any money exchanges hands.

        My neighbor gave up on his ’99 Windstar last year when it was due for its third set of intake/head gaskets (and on its 2nd transmission, 2nd exhaust system, etc etc).

    • 0 avatar

      My Grandpa’s 97 Deville is still going strong after an initial head gasket blew up in 2003 was it? Its at 120k right now without another problem. And that thing isn’t living the easy life,he has a garden in everyone’s backyards, and uses the car like a truck. He loads the trunk full of buckets of dirt/plants/tools and drives around town all day taking care of his gardens. I feel sorry for the car sometimes.

  • avatar

    I’m really surprised nobody threw out a V12 Jag as a suggestion. Have I an XJS for you my friend!

  • avatar

    You’re in for a real treat when the front subframe rots and the engine and trans falls out and then even more fun times when the rear beam axle snaps in half.

    Don’t let those scumbags at Ford screw you by trying to buy it back at 150% market value, they’re just trying to hoard all the Windstar goodness for themselves.

  • avatar

    I second the suggestion of an E38 or even an E39–a remanufactured automatic transmission on those is upwards of $4,000, not including labor. Not to mention the numerous coolant leaks and suspension components which regularly go bad.

    • 0 avatar

      If you are on a budget, an E46 will do nicely. That budget will be destroyed in a glorious blaze of one heroic failure after another. Keeping it on the road will also prevent you from wasting time on other worthless things like playing golf, or wasting money on things like nice funiture.

      The window regulators are just made to fail. Replacing one will use up a great chunk of spare time that you though you had coming to you. Especially when the nut holding the window is seized and has to be drilled out without cracking the glass.

      Like other BMWs, the cooling system is full of plastic badness (or goodness depending on your point of view). It __will__ fail before the 100 000 mile mark. If you are lucky, the cloud of steam will even flake off the paint on the BMW badge. For even more wholesome fun it will do this in the middle of nowhere, requiring a tow to the shop.

      The steering pump is another ticking time bomb. The best surprise of this is that the stealership does not sell the same pump anymore. They only stock an improved version that requires a new set of hydraulic pipes to make it work in your car.

      But wait, there is more! Along the way you will have endless fun fixing countless little things that fail, such as suspension bushes, trunk lid wiring looms and bits of plastic in the sunroof. You will learn to use the internet to source these bits, as the prices you friendly stealership charges will break the spirit of even the most ardent lover of German engineering.

      I have saved the best one for last. The air conditioner’s evaporator will fail at some stage and let all the gas out leak out. To cool your brow with refrigerated air will require a complete replacement of said evaporator. Don’t ask me what it actually does. All that I know is that it is a big, expensive boxy thing made up of plastic and metal bits. Did I mention that it is expensive?

      Once again, those Germans engineers keep an ace up their sleeve for this repair. To replace the evaporator thingy, the entire dashboard has to be taken out. That’s right – the whole thing. Steering wheel, radio, air bags, instruments, the lot. Even a shop with lots of practice takes about a week to do this properly.

      All those years with a Ford Windstar Northwoods Edition will stand you in good stead if you choose to join the merry brotherhood of BMW fan boys. Your life is incomplete without an example of the ultimate driving machine in your garage. Or even two of them – don’t ask! At least they are nice to drive when all is well.

      • 0 avatar

        As an E46 owner, this had me cracking up. Of the common failures you listed, I’ve only had the sunroof and front control arm bushings go wrong. However, there are plenty more common E46 problems that have kept me entertained:
        -5 vacuum leaks
        -Oil separator clogging
        -Fuel pump died
        -Door lock relays AND actuators
        -Seat belt tensioner wiring harness
        -Oil filter housing gasket leak
        -Valve cover gasket oil leak
        -Engine software gone all kaput
        -Water pump bearing failure
        -Differential mount bushings cracked

        None of these problems are rare.

        To the OP, my family had a ’96 Windstar LX for 10 years. It was the fastest car in the family at the time. Replaced the 3.8 once due to HG failure. Also had a snapped sway bar, wheel bearing failures, and lost the brakes once or twice.

  • avatar

    Ha ha ha! This is too funny.

    Here’s a question nobody asked: Why did you keep such a stellar vehicle for FOURTEEN YEARS???

    THEN we can talk bridges for sale…

    I, too, have to strongly suggest a 1998 – 2002 Dodge Intrepid with the venerable 2.7L. Gives a boat anchor a bad name.

    • 0 avatar

      It’s funny to think about just HOW MANY they sold of the Intrepids/LHS/Concorde, and then think how often you see them today.

      I rarely see them, and when I do they’re on their last legs already. Though I did see a 300M today that looked decent. But I guess that’s a bit newer.

      • 0 avatar

        300Ms were somewhat of a different story, as Chrysler never installed the 2.7L in that vehicle. While the 2nd gen LH stigma definitely affected their market value, it’s not uncommon to see the 300M or other 3.5L LH cars soldier on for several hundred thousand miles.

      • 0 avatar

        Was the 3.5 a Mitsu unit as well?

      • 0 avatar

        Both the 2.7L and 3.5L were Chrysler engines. The 3.5L had roots in the reliable as dirt 3.3L 60* V6 which had roots in the reliable as stone 318 V8. The 2.7L had oil drainback, coking and resulting oil starvation issues that inevitably took most of them out.

        The 3.0L SOHC Mitsu motor had it’s own reliability issues, but the only Chrysler branded vehicles it was being installed in after the turn of the century were the Sebring and Stratus coupes which were essentially rebodied Eclipses.

  • avatar

    I guess this thread is supposed to be sarcasm, but $38k over 14 years is less than some people spend on ‘good’ transportation, namely pimped Siennas with all the bling.

    If the writer wanted another minivan, I’d vote for the Kia Sedona. Our 09 has been excellent and affordable.

    • 0 avatar

      “If the writer wanted another minivan, I’d vote for the Kia Sedona. Our 09 has been excellent and affordable.”

      Now there’s a great one. I was at an auction last night where a 2005 example of this fine vehicle couldn’t even fetch $400. This is undoubtedly because the dealer buyers at the auction figured if they sold one, it would last so long they’d never get to sell that customer another vehicle.

    • 0 avatar

      (Yes, this reply is also skipping the sarcasm:

      Yeah, but that Sienna isn’t going to fall apart as fast – I know, because my parents have one.

      Let’s not forget that “being stranded” and “waiting while it’s at the shop” and “never knowing when it’s going to puke again” are all costs, just not monetary ones…

      That said, for a sensible person, the Sedona is probably a fine choice and a great value.)

  • avatar

    1998 Pontiac Montana Trans Sport. Ideally one that has never had the tranny fluid flushed. You can enjoy destroyed head gaskets from the gasping 3.4L V6 under the hood, never mind manifold gaskets that fail on command. Three of the spark plugs, even with tipping the engine are next to impossible to access. The mouse fur cloth interior should be ripped to shreds by now. The power sliding doors will alternatively refuse to close, refuse to latch, or refuse to operate. Oh and bonus points for one with the rear air suspension where it leaks and the air pump just runs and runs and runs and runs until the thermal protection kicks in. You can enjoy water in the headlights, a stereo display in Klingon because half the LEDs don’t work, steering wheel controls with all the text rubbed off, and door trim panels falling off. The squeaks and squeals will drive you clinically insane.

    Happy motoring!

    • 0 avatar

      Damn, beat me to it.

      The 3.4L is KEY tho. Don’t let ANYONE scam you out of your hard earned money and get you into a FWD GM van with the 3.8L.

    • 0 avatar

      my mother had a 1997 Montana. never had a problem with the engine but door panels fell off, our only had one power assisted door which broke about 6 months after the warranty ended and we just ended up using the other whenever possible. I loved when the suspension started to leak and the pump would always snap me out of a sleepy state or cause my then infant sister to cry. i spent a good majority of my childhood in that van along with my father’s 2002 Bonneville SSEI you just brought back all to familiar memories best of all was that on a rainy day the over head console would start a steady drip that you could catch in a waterbottle in the well placed cupholder

  • avatar

    Why not get a late model Allante? All the power of Northstar, combined with fancy modern (and reliable) electrics, and build quality from several different locations! Oh, and an initial starting price higher than the Merc SL’s back in the day make for good value now. Make sure you get the soft top, no hard top available.

  • avatar

    I don’t understand. You’ve had the Windstar for only 14 years? You should keep it – it probably has lots of repairs left in it. I had a ’63 Chrysler Newport that was still on the road in 1998, though it tended to collect towing notices after a few weeks in one spot. The mechanical bits are always replaceable, and as you’ve discovered, mechanics are eager to help.

    Body rust you can handle yourself. I found that for small spots of rust out, just fill in the cavity with blow in foam insulation, shave it down and it’s a good base for a thin layer of bondo, topped off with a few squirts of krylon spray paint. For major body rust, coffee cans and tin snips are the solution, though I prefer Hi-C cans myself, just for the snazzy ridges, especially on rocker panels. I didn’t do any of that myself, I smartly hired some high school kids who did a bang-up job.

    For frame and suspension rust, you’ll find some creative welders who can jury rig a repair for you. Just make sure they don’t weld on the replaceable parts. That’s only if you can’t find donors of original parts to cut and weld to your vehicle. Your model may not have suitable donors, but there are recyclers nationwide who can ship to your favorite mechanic. See your local body shop for donor availability and prices.

    If you really want to go whole-hog, drive or tow your baby to a restoration specialist and tell them you want it “as-new”. Then you can re-live the last fourteen years all over again.

  • avatar
    Eric the Red

    WOW, I had a ’98 Windstar bought new. Unfortunately it was just a GL and not your special edition. Too bad I had to turn it back in after the 2 year lease was up. I can see I would have had lots of great experiences if I had kept it! Missed opportunities.
    Seriously, I liked my same year Windstar, but obviously never got to high mileage.

    • 0 avatar

      I leased a brand new Windstar LX in January 2000. Electrical problems from Day 1. And it went downhill from there. Engine knocking (dealer said it was fine). A loud clunk and vibrations coming from the transmission going from Park to Drive (dealer said it was fine, everything was always fine). And the recalls, oh man, the recalls. Six or seven of them in three years. The “funniest” one was about the intermittent wipers: don’t use them, the timer will catch fire.

      But it wasn’t all that bad. Had a lot of fun with that van. Hit a patrol car when the officer didn’t obey a stop sign, no lights, no siren (he apologized and took the blame). Jammed the underground parking garage door opener where I lived at the time: I checked the garage door before entering the first time, didn’t ask myself why the opener was further from the door than usual AND lower.

      My best memory of that thing? The day I returned the lemon at the end of the lease.

    • 0 avatar

      I have fond memories of a 1999 Windstar GL rental, probably because we never spent more than a week in it. We did a non-stop cannonball run from Edmonton to Las Vegas in and back. I remember it as having a softly sprung ride, superb low beam headlights, good low end grunt, and good visibility.

      I also remember it having average noise insulation, squealing tires at the speed limit doing Montana’s mountainous curves, a lack of long distance seat comfort, and a cruise control that only turned off with the brakes (a notable Ford design flaw of that era).

  • avatar

    The 2.7L Chrysler reference got me all nostalgic. I slaved away on my now ex-girlfriend’s 2.7L prime-piece-of-engineering to prevent it from spewing oil all over her exhaust manifold and creating a cabin of therapudic fossil fuel vapors.

    Happy Valentine’s day, ex / Stratus. I hope your engine oilers have less blockages / disease than my own oiler.

    Treat yourself to one of those labors of love. Your knuckles and wallet will thank me.

  • avatar

    I say go for the W140.

    Biodegradable engine wiring harness, that needs to be replaced if you ever unplug it?


  • avatar

    Man, we got ripped off when someone actually paid 2k to take our 99 Windstar off our hands. It even had the “bad” motor (3.0). And only cost us a transmission, rack and pinion and a set of brakes.

  • avatar

    Land Rover…anything.

    Also, a 1999.5 VW GTI with the 1.8T. Or an ’06 with DSG and the FSI engine.

    An ’04 Phaeton sounds swell, too!

  • avatar

    Don’t know about the Windstar but I once drove an Aerostar whose transmission seizes when put into reverse…

  • avatar

    I understand that undying love! I was on my way driving my Aerostar to meet a buyer who already put down a deposit, when the engine decided to conk out on me. That poor Aerostar- she didn’t want to leave me. Now that’s true love and commitment!

  • avatar

    The foto of the busted fancy schmancy cup holder at the end made me chortle.

  • avatar

    I am enjoying the heck out of this article and the comments!

    As another pick, I can add the first year of the Bangle butt BMW 745i. It has the goodness of a first-year iDrive, new engine and transmission, and all new electricals.

    When I think to myself which cars would be the biggest sinkhole for money, it’s the 745i or a ’99 Benz S Class…

  • avatar

    A Mazda RX8. You could wring out the rotary till the apex seals go, keep swapping in more Renesises (Renesi?) or or just go for the full LSx conversion. You’d get the extra satisfaction of buying a Japanese car that is both unreliable and uneconomical in almost every way.

  • avatar

    May I suggest a late 1990’s Jaguar XJ8? Make sure that it has the original plastic timing chain tensioners and plastic impeller water pump so you get the full effect of British quality engineering. These plastic parts are much lower weight than the newer ones which are metal and we all know that low mass is its own reward, right? (Another Brit, Colin Chapman who built some of the most reliable cars at Lotus taught us that.)

    You should be able to buy an XJ8 for about the same as a Northstar Cadillac, or less than a 200,000 mile Camry and when the timing chain tensioner gives out and lets the timing chain jump more than few teeth you’ve got pistons crashing into valves and then its time to replace the engine which should only cost three to five times more than you paid for the car.

  • avatar

    After only driving GM F-bodies, GM H-bodies, and GM Truck based platforms for the last 15 years, I feel like I’m seriously missing out on something here…Good thing it is time to do some shopping for my next vehicle! I’m thinking of joining in on the fun with a CVT FWD Real Jeep ™ product!

  • avatar

    I suggest you go to your local “tuner” forum on them thar interwebs and find a guy selling a 92 Civic (but he’s selling it for his buddy) the one with the biggest wing, most rear camber, the most decals on the back window, and make darn sure the timing belt cover is cut down or removed to show the turquoise anodized gears. That’s a keeper.

  • avatar

    You’ve paid your dues behind the wheel of a minivan for long enough. It’s time you treat yourself to a Fiero.

  • avatar

    How about a 2001.5 VW ‘new’ Passat?

    1.8t, 5-automatic.

    I couldn’t imagine what 14 years with one of these would be like.

    I gave up in less that one year.

    One transmission per year. I wonder!

  • avatar
    Compaq Deskpro

    Buy an old beat to shit police car. Make sure it’s an 03 (the problem year), so it has bad timing chain guides, chipping paint everywhere, exhaust manifolds so rusted that the mechanic hates you for making him replace them regardless of how much you pay him, sagging front springs from jumping all those curbs, squeaking ball joints. The interior should be fully ripped apart, and haphazardly put back together. Loose cut wires flopping around everywhere. Service records? LOL just change all the fluids.

    And finally, drive it every day and love it.

  • avatar

    Here’s what you do:

    Get yourself a 1.8T early 2000s VW with an 01M Automatic transmission. Make sure the current owner has no documentation of a ATF/filter change and also make sure the transmission hunts and slips on the test drive. That’s how you know it’s in it for the long haul. If the 01M does die, make sure you have about $5000 to $6000 set aside for a VW refurb and labour.

    Then you’ll get to deal with coil packs and window regulars made out of the cheapest plastic available. It might not cost you $38000 to keep running, but you’ll kick yourself pretty hard for buying it.

    BTW, this thread is hilarious. Keep the replies coming!

  • avatar

    This thread is awesome. I almost feel guilty for owning 2.5 reliable vehicles (My ’94 F150 has recently required several moderately costly repairs, but I’m also running out of things to replace – she’s very simple).

    • 0 avatar

      If you haven’t already, get prothane radius arm bushings for it.

      • 0 avatar

        I had to look those up to see what they were, Denver Mike. I’ve been under the truck extensively with my mechanic who checked it over for me when I first bought it. As I recall they look ok, and so far the only suspension item he’s recommended be replaced was one of the ball joints, which I subsequently had him do. I’m not getting any clunking like I’ve read is a symptom of worn radius arm bushings, in fact I think she rides real smooth for a 19 year old machine with 168,000 on the clock. He just completely rebuilt the rear brakes for me (who knew that when you pulled the drums off, parts are NOT supposed to fall off into the floor) and I’m hoping to not spend much on her for awhile to amortize that out. How critical for these bushings?

      • 0 avatar

        In my experience, it’s not that they’re critical, they’re just inevitable. If you hear that crunk/clunk, you’ve got to fix ’em . It’s not pull over right now and tow it to the garage, but it’s not a put it off until next scheduled service kinda thing either.

  • avatar

    If you truly want to enjoy draining you’re savings account, and are a man that likes to get stuff done that isn’t a pussy, I suggest you get a abused first year 1992 Buick roadmaster limited, with 225k miles on it, equipped with every single available power option cause they all brake, ALL of them. You can expect to change every single window motor, 3 or 4 transmissions, 5 alternators, 3 starters, the auto power trunk motor lock, o2 sensors galore, fuel injectors, fuel pump (which is a joy to replace cause you have to drop the tank, and it will always fail with a filled tank) the body panels will rust along with everything under the car, you can also look forward to small electrical fires around the car, like the lumbar and reclining seat motors that will start to burn out of know ware almost catching the seats on fire, electronic climate control display that goes out (wile it’s working that is) and oh, that stupid worthless accessory that conditions the air inside the car? Well that’s for pussies anyway, we all know that real men don’t need something as stupid as air conditioning, and the roadmaster knows this so don’t worry about it, cause it never works, also one final thing, make sure you get the uber rare cloth top with sunroof, cause it will always leak, that is if it doesn’t get stuck half way open.

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