By on October 3, 2009

And she's not afraid to use it. (courtesy serenitythruhaiku.files.wordpress.com)

From The Detroit News:

Pelosi said Democrats want automakers to “thrive,” and she hasn’t ruled out additional support for automakers if they show that they are “viable.”

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58 Comments on “Bailout Watch 585: Uh-Oh...”


  • avatar
    FreedMike

    I doubt any of the hundreds of thousands of people who depend on these companies for a paycheck would consider this an “uh-oh” moment. More like a “thank God someone cares if we have jobs” moment.

  • avatar
    kaleun

    sure they show that they are viable, 45% sales drop despite $ 5,000 cash on the hood viable…

    It sickens me…. I used to like Democrats better (like the lesser evil of the two to chose from), and hate Republicans (and still do). One should put R and D into one bag and beat the bag with a stick — you never hit the wrong one.

  • avatar
    jpcavanaugh

    So, the next round of federal money is all for Ford?

  • avatar
    Autosavant

    IS this a real pic of this idiot, or did you Photoshop it?

    She looks ridiculous.

  • avatar
    tooling designer

    @ freedmike

    I agree but your wasting your time here. Many of those on here don’t understand now but trust me they will when it’s their turn.

  • avatar
    unleashed

    I used to like Democrats better (like the lesser evil of the two to chose from), and hate Republicans (and still do).

    It’s not about Democrats or Republicans anymore.
    Pleas stop thinking in those terms.
    We, the people, are losing our country, our freedoms.
    The enemy is the ever expanding, corrupting government regardless of the party affiliations.

  • avatar
    hreardon

    I certainly hope that nobody here in these forums is surprised. The first rule of political intervention is that you cannot allow a pet project to fail, regardless the depth of the hole you’ve dug.

    The federal government and its minions will continue to shovel however much money is necessary toward the big three until the people stand up and say NO in a very loud voice.

  • avatar
    hreardon

    unleashed is 100% correct in his statement. This has nothing at all to do with being a partisan on either side – it has to do with a political system that has become so painfully bought and sold by monied interests that the concept of ‘principle’ has no standing left in this country.

  • avatar
    Jerome10

    “It sickens me…. I used to like Democrats better (like the lesser evil of the two to chose from), and hate Republicans (and still do). One should put R and D into one bag and beat the bag with a stick — you never hit the wrong one.”

    AMEN. I was in the exact same boat. But the way the money is being spent….mostly getting less return than just flushing it down the toilet….is DISGUSTING. Very rapidly America is becoming the place where business is no longer done based on need, or ability, or hard work, but rather by who has friends and can get the government to give them money (by taking it from taxpayers). Nearly every one of these pieces of s**t should be tossed to the curb.

    I was not around in the Carter days….but I’m starting to get the smell of Reagan (who I was never the biggest fan of, but there’s little doubt he did a hell of a job making America work the way it was designed). It won’t take much more before Americans say enough, and somebody who actually cares about this country is elected to office, and with them puts an end to nonsense like this.

    If we don’t stop this soon, our country is going to be full of “investments” that do nothing other than require higher taxes on all citizens to keep running. Talk about nothing for something. Interest on the federal debt and tax money to prop up failures gets us a fat ZERO in return. How is that any way to run a country (or a company)?

    Ok, I’m boiling now. I can’t take these a-holes. My take is the fewer of them, with the less influence they have, the better off we’ll all be.

  • avatar
    toxicroach

    tooling designer— why do you get lifetime employment? I mean, nobody would bail out a small businessman who couldn’t run a company. What makes the employees of GM & Chrysler more important than anyone else?

  • avatar
    dgduris

    I am not a violent person. But I looked at that picture and heard Paul McCartney singing “Maxwell’s Silver Hammer.”

  • avatar
    kurkosdr

    hreardon said it perfectly.

    The long term viability of the big two is still doubtfull, at best. So, if they run out of cash and file for bk sometime between the next months, Obama will have to admit that the whole bailout thing was an ill-advised gambling of public money (of course, we all know what it really was, a big pet project to keep the employees of the two automakers employed, rather than having them complaining outside the white house holding plackarts).

    So, there isn’t really any choice for the government. They will keep shoveling more and more money to GM (but probably not CryCo), possibly though another “structured bankrupty”, and keep pretending all the “loans” will be paid back when GM recovers.
    Don’t try to find any economic sense to this because there isn’t. But there is a political one. GM is still too big to fail (literally) and needs another round of cash to make a soft landing.

    Where it’s going to end? When the big 1.5 are not “too big to fail” anymore. CryCo is about the size of Circuit City right now, so it can be assumed that a C7 bankrupty of CryCo won’t hurt the economy much. GMs need some more “work” to be done to reach to that point, so a third bailout is needed.

    When we reach to that point, the public won’t mind anymore (too little employees to care), and, for average Joe, all this will be just another big spending of the tax dollars, but a too old one to care. Presto! Problem solved!

  • avatar
    Airhen

    As Pelosi and her fellow Democrats see it, the UAW is what is “viable” about the US automakers… in further buying their votes and the support of their thugs with money collected from the rest of us taxpayers.

  • avatar
    ptr2void

    @hreardon: “unleashed is 100% correct in his statement. This has nothing at all to do with being a partisan on either side – it has to do with a political system that has become so painfully bought and sold by monied interests that the concept of ‘principle’ has no standing left in this country.”

    I suspect this is the way it’s always been, and it’s only the 24-hour media society that has brought it toward center stage, for better or for worse.

    However, you must remember that the vast majority of people in this country remain blissfully — or willfully — ignorant of the real goings on. And these people vote, too.

  • avatar
    ZoomZoom

    I am not ignorant of it.

    I am taking names. In November 2010, I will be kicking some political ass.

    It’s high time time to implement some term limits. Who’s with me?

  • avatar
    threeer

    Nothing short of a real revolution will change the direction of this country. While I earn a living supporting our military, I’d much rather see each and every one of our men and women back home instead of serving in countries that really don’t want us there (if we were going to commit our Armed Forces, then it should have been for all the marbles…none of this passive “nation-building’ crap. How about taking all of that money and, oh…I don’t know…paying off our debt to China (which I find to be much more dangerous to our national security). How about paying off the national debt so that your grandchildren’s grandchildren aren’t burdened with paying it off. How about truly INVESTING in our country, which is crumbling from the inside out. GM and Chrysler, once proud captains of our rise to greatness have fallen on their own accord. We’ve tried to save them. It isn’t working. Let them fail and maybe from the ashes of what was something robust, viable (and not to mention desirable) will follow. Washington, Jefferson and the like are seriously rolling in their graves. And this has nothing to do with Blue States or Red States…they are all complicit in this failure…

    Rant off…sorry…

  • avatar
    topstevings

    @FreedMike I doubt any of the hundreds of thousands of people who depend on these companies for a paycheck would consider this an “uh-oh” moment. More like a “thank God someone cares if we have jobs” moment.

    @tooling designer I agree but your wasting your time here. Many of those on here don’t understand now but trust me they will when it’s their turn.

    Actually, it was my turn from April to September and not once did I come to the conclusion that the government should bail out the company I had worked for previously. I doubt I’m the only one reading the articles on this site that was jobless during some portion of 2009.

    And I think I do understand the situation. Government will sink money endlessly into GM regardless of its future prospects.

  • avatar
    mpresley

    For crying our loud, are there THAT many UAW votes on the line for these opportunistic whores to shill over? What economic theory states that taxpayers subsidize a consumer product no one wants (or very few want) in order just to “save jobs?” Oh well, it doesn’t matter, there is no subsidy money anyway. It’s all funny money and these programs will just hasten our economic demise as we plunge into the Third World. I’ve come to the conclusion that the sooner the US implodes, the sooner we can build something brand new and better. So, Nancy: you go girl! And props to your pal the Obama-god, too.

  • avatar
    Jimal

    @ZoomZoom,
    I have mixed feelings on term limits. The only thing more dangerous that a politician is a lame duck politician. Sometimes the threat of not being reelected is the only thing that makes politicians respond.

    I’m more of a fan of a leveling of the playing field between incumbents and challengers, such as by limiting the length of campaigns or lowering contribution limits. Something. If someone is doing their job, I’m all for them staying in office as long as they’d like. I would also like it to be easier to vote out the deadwood.

    The system is broken for sure, but somewhere in there I have to believe there is at least one person who doesn’t suck.

  • avatar
    sfdennis1

    In response to the posters claiming there are no differences between the Democrats and the Republicans…please note the following:

    At least when Democrats throw around billions of dollars of taxpayer money, the intent is that the ‘common man’ shares in a portion of this payout, via continued employment, and/or being paid a living wage and decent benefits…while at least attempting to reign in RIDICULOUS levels of executive pay via salary caps, etc.

    The Republicans only love “freedom”, self-reliance and free markets, when the spoils are channeled to the upper brackets only, and the rest of us are ‘left to eat cake’ (or starve).

    Agreed that corporate interests and power, lobbying influence, and hypocrisy in DC are OUT OF CONTROL.

  • avatar
    LeBaron

    @FreedMike

    @tooling designer

    I too had my turn in 2008-2009. Eleven months worth of my turn. Just recently I got an offer, which I accepted, that pay 26% less than my last job. And that was about 15% less than I was earning 4 years ago.
    What makes you two any different?
    As of yesterday 9.8% of this country was unemployed. That doesn’t include those that have exhausted their unemployment comp. For some reason.
    All these months I’ve watched my meager savings dwindle and yet I and other taxpayers owe you a certain standard of living?
    Why is that? What is it that makes you special?
    I was in commercial printing. People no longer want what we make in the quantities that we used to make them. It’s time for you two to face the music and move on. I have.

  • avatar
    mpresley

    “There is no means of avoiding the final collapse of a boom brought about by credit expansion. The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner as the result of voluntary abandonment of further credit expansion, or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved.”

    Ludwig v. Mises: Human Action p.572

  • avatar
    Daniel J. Stern

    Y’know, when I was in grade school, our Social Studies teachers taught us to laugh at the idiots behind the iron curtain. Haw haw haw, lookit those dumb Communist boobs, propping up inefficient companies making poor-quality, outmoded products nobody wants to buy…just to preserve jobs!

    Haw haw haw, indeed.

  • avatar
    mpresley

    Daniel J. Stern : Y’know, when I was in grade school…

    “We have met the enemy, and he is us.”

    Pogo Possum, 1953

  • avatar
    tooling designer

    @toxicroach

    Thats what you don’t get! It’s not about saving just a few factory jobs. It’s about preventing an entire region of this country from heading straight for the crapper (se MI). These companies are not little mom and pop shops where something else will pop up and just replace them. Also, they don’t operate in a vacuum, if they suffered an uncontrolled BK it would have been a huge mess here in SE MI. Also, I have never expected promised lifetime employment either. You obviously have no idea the challenges in the design/engineering industries to make a statement like that.

    @ topstevings

    Nice to see I wasn’t the only one who got to enjoy a summer vaca. I also was unemployed from April to Aug. I never thought the company I worked for should have been bailed out either! But guess what i didn’t work for GM. They aren’t/weren’t nearly as important to the overall well being of the economy.

    @ LeBaron

    Ha ha. You had to take a paycut? So did I. I took a 20% paycut. But, you don’t hear me whining about it. I understand that in my profession 1 person controls my fate, ME! As such I will get my 20% back one way or another but not all have the options I do.

    @ all

    You know the saying. Water finds it’s level. Even if The gov sinks more money into GM they will continue to properly shrink if they can’t improve things and eventually will go away when they have too little influence. What your seeing now IMO is simply the gov trying to control/prevent the demise of a region of OUR country. GM is just the figurehead.

  • avatar
    Smeeder

    For crying our loud, are there THAT many UAW votes on the line for these opportunistic whores to shill over?

    It isn’t just the UAW that she’s worried about. It’s the greater AFL-CIO and AFSCME that she needs to be worried about. If the Dems let large numbers of Union Jobs fail, the incentive for one of their last loyal constituencies to remain in the fold drops off to nothing…..

  • avatar
    wytshus

    Even better than term limits:

    Eliminate payroll taxes, and move Tax Day to the Monday before Election Day. Write a big whopping check to the government on Monday, then vote for whomever you wish on Tuesday……

  • avatar

    As a fellow Chrysler 300 owner, let me just say:

    ITS TIME TO BURY CHRYSLER.

    I’ll have to make do with my S550 until I can get rid of it.

  • avatar
    FreedMike

    LeBaron :
    October 3rd, 2009 at 4:03 pm
    I was in commercial printing. People no longer want what we make in the quantities that we used to make them. It’s time for you two to face the music and move on. I have.

    Uh, I’m not in the auto business, so it’s not my job that’s being saved. Why would you assume that?

    The fact is that the automotive industry in our country employs hundreds of thousands of people. Toss ’em out of work, and you’ve got a national economic catstrophe, and in the individual states that rely on automaking, you’ve got Armageddon.

    THAT is what’s at stake.

    I AM in an industry that’s been devastated by the economic downturn, and no, I didn’t get a bailout to save my job. But I’m bright enough to realize that a bunch of out-of-work guys in my line of work won’t sink the economy. GM and/or Chrysler failure will.

  • avatar
    psarhjinian

    For crying our loud, are there THAT many UAW votes on the line for these opportunistic whores to shill over?

    No, there isn’t. It’s a common belief shared between second-rate right-wingers and self-important union executives that this is about the UAW. It isn’t, not by a long shot.

    The truth is that this has little to do with the UAW and everything to do with a half-assed bailout being the middle-of-the-road, offend-few/please-few solution. Actually exercising control (a la Renault, circa 1981) isn’t something Americans have the stomach for, while allowing them to fail would decimate the blue-collar middle-class voters who make or break certain swing states.

    The bail-out, as implemented, was a way to play “toss the hot potato”.

  • avatar
    PeteMoran

    Fiat might get tired of Chrysler all by themselves.

    And then there were two, and the industry can normalise a bit capacity wise.

    BTW, it’s a real pity Pelosi can’t hit some “we say no” Republicans on the head with that gavel.

  • avatar
    unleashed

    psarhjinian,

    the vast right-wing conspirators are out to get ya.
    How can you sleep at night?

  • avatar
    gslippy

    @tooling designer: I was unemployed for 8 months in 2003, because the startup company I joined two years earlier couldn’t sell its products. So I found other work, and eventually that company got bought out by another competitor.

    GM directly employs only 1/10 of 1% of the US workforce (#6 and falling), and Chrysler is less than half that size. Their collective demise would be unfortunate, but not deadly for the US.

    Viability? I’d say the Dems never saw a UAW job that didn’t look viable to them. At what point would you stop putting your tax dollars into these companies?

  • avatar
    ZoomZoom

    Hey folks. In my comments above, I wasn’t referring to “enacting” term limits, I was referring to implementing term limits by way of my vote.

    Although I do think that we should have REASONABLE term limits for all politicians. Everybody should have a maximum public service limit, after which they MUST GO HOME. Find a real job, start a business, deliver pizzas or newspapers, beg on the street corner. Whatever blows their hair back. But they shouldn’t be allowed to serve for endless DECADES in federal office. The Founders recognized that people who serve should eventually GO HOME and live under the laws that they passed when they were in office.

    We don’t have that now, and it has created two classes. The first is the elite political class with their friends and the people to whom they owe favors. The other class is the rest of us.

    If we had term limits, and we forced the elites to live under the laws that everybody else has to abide by, then I believe this class thing would fade away.

    And more than that, it comes down to this simple common sense concept: Nobody has any goddamn business being in political office for fifty effing years! Please, I hope nobody’s trying to defend that.

    tooling designer to (hopefully not “at”) toxicroach:

    Thats what you don’t get! It’s not about saving just a few factory jobs. It’s about preventing an entire region of this country from heading straight for the crapper (se MI).

    Well it shouldn’t be done at the expense of other regions. When you take something from somebody without their permission for a purpose not stated in the Constitution or the Bill of Rights, that’s theft. It’s demeaning; robbing EVERYBODY of their human dignity (involuntary donors and donees alike). And it’s immoral. It’s also unconstitutional on another level because it gives one region an unfair advantage over others.

    Every region needs to learn to adapt to a changing world, and not at the expense of the other regions.

  • avatar
    taxman100

    Every dollar the Dems spend only hastens our demise into bankruptcy – only then can be rebuild this country back to what it used to be, before a bloated, wastefull, enslaving government bureaucracy sucked the lifeblood out of this country.

    Since too many voters benefit from living off of the work of others, it is a foregone conclusion that bankruptcy will come, sooner or later.

  • avatar
    sfdennis1

    @taxman100

    …and every dollar that we have spent on a Republican-initiated useless war in Iraq also serves to push us closer to the edge

    …as did the Republican-initiated tax cuts for the wealthiest amongst us, while the middle class continually shrinks, jobs are shipped overseas to please short-term corporate agendas at the expense of our future viability, and income disparity is reaching ‘robber baron’ levels…

    If we’re now falling off a cliff, the Democrats didn’t do this alone…the Republicans started pushing us in that direction years ago.

  • avatar
    Matt51

    Somebody please tell Nancy we need a bottom up solution, top down solutions don’t work. If she is going to be handing out our cash, give it back to us to spend.

  • avatar
    mattstairs

    sfdennis1

    I don’t hear people complaining anymore about the $ 10 billion a month we’re spending in Iraq, now that Obama is in charge. He’s adding more to the deficit in one year than the combined cumulative costs of both wars.

    Yes, the relative size (not absolute numbers) of the middle class was shrinking, first, because the upper class was growing. Second, the lower classes were also growing, due to the millions of unskilled, uneducated immigrants the country is having a terrible time absorbing.

    I’m so tired of the “tax cuts for the rich” mantra. Who do you think pays most of the federal income taxes? Not the bottom 47% of wage earners who pay no federal income tax. When you cut marginal tax rates, it is simple math that the people who pay the most get the biggest break.

    Pete Moran,

    Who has the Presidency and an overwhelming majority in both houses of Congress and could pass any bill without a single Republican vote?

  • avatar
    PeteMoran

    @ mattstairs

    Good point. Hit some “blue-dog” Dems too then.

  • avatar
    lw

    Politicians are not THE problem!
    Bailouts are not THE problem!
    GM, Chrysler and the UAW are not THE problem!

    THE SINGULAR ONE AND ONLY ROOT PROBLEM is..

    Drumroll please…. FREE MONEY!!

    Think about this before you blame politicians… What if Citibank gave you a credit card with no limit, zero percent interest locked in for 30 years and Bank of America gave you another card that would always make the minimum payment on your Citi card….

    You gonna tell me that you wouldn’t take a vacation that you couldn’t afford? Comon.. you earned IT!

    Call me when Obama decides to cut our troops down to one meal a day so that he pay for a CEO’s golden parachute… The Federal Government hasn’t made a hard decision for decades..

  • avatar
    tooling designer

    @ gslippy

    The jobs that are save from attempting to prevent GM’s demise are more than than those GM directly employs. If you have any idea how many jobs are tied to the auto industry here then you’d realize that GM’s importance cannot be minimized.

    Also, by viewing things along Rep/Dem lines you are doing little more than allowing yourself to be pushed to the margins and out of equation. It’s as simple as “divide and conquer”. Thats a big part of why this country is in the mess it’s in.

    Think for yourself, question authority (repeat that to yourself 10 times)

    @ZoomZoom

    Oh please! You wanna get pissed?

    Try getting all worked up about the banking industries who do little more than move numbers around on paper. Try getting all worked up about the incredible amounts of money spent on bullshit wars. Try getting pissed about all the money wasted on a busted health care industry. Try getting pissed about all of these newest “infrastructure” projects which are mostly unneeded and a horrible missuses of public monies.
    But to get pissed about spending a relatively small amount of money on an industry that employs
    so many (directly AND indirectly) is laughable.

  • avatar
    geeber

    psharjinian: The truth is that this has little to do with the UAW and everything to do with a half-assed bailout being the middle-of-the-road, offend-few/please-few solution.

    You are talking about the structure of the bailout, which is entirely different from which party the bailout is supposed to ultimately benefit. What you have posted does not prove incorrect the contention that saving the UAW was a motivating factor in these bailouts.

    If GM and Chrysler had collapsed, the UAW would have only had a foothold at Ford, and that would have rendered the union completely powerless when Ford demanded any additional concessions to match the transplants.

    psharjinian: Actually exercising control (a la Renault, circa 1981) isn’t something Americans have the stomach for, while allowing them to fail would decimate the blue-collar middle-class voters who make or break certain swing states.

    I wouldn’t hold Renault up as an example of success. The French government also seriously restricted the availability of Japanese cars during the 1980s, which gave Renault breathing room while forcing French customers to pay higher prices and denied them superior products. Hardly a “win-win” scenario in my view. And, if I recall correctly, Renault is in trouble again.

    FreedMike: The fact is that the automotive industry in our country employs hundreds of thousands of people. Toss ‘em out of work, and you’ve got a national economic catstrophe, and in the individual states that rely on automaking, you’ve got Armageddon.

    The domestic auto industry in this country now includes the transplant operations of Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Hyundai, BMW and Mercedes. If GM and/or Chrysler go under, we will still have a strong domestic auto industry.

    The idea that “Big Three=domestic auto industry” is about 15 years out of date.

    If anything, allowing one of them to disappear will help Ford survive, because a fair number of their current customers would switch to Ford.

    PeteMoran: BTW, it’s a real pity Pelosi can’t hit some “we say no” Republicans on the head with that gavel.

    Those Republicans, along with the Blue Dog Democrats, are saving Pelosi & Company from themselves.

  • avatar
    Jimal

    @mattstairs

    Exactly. The Truth is the Democrats have the Presidency and control both houses of Congress. They should be able to do just about anything they want (as long as it passes the Supreme Court smell test). Why can’t they get their house in order? Why haven’t they accomplished much of anything? I know it is still (relatively) early in a new administration, but that explanation is beginning to lose its legs.

  • avatar
    lw

    tooling designer:

    Money wasted? I’m confused.. Money is free… That’s like saying that I’m wasting air by letting my engine idle.

    We can just print as much as we need.. literally. I wish I was being sarcastic but that is the current system.

  • avatar
    johnthacker

    I agree but your wasting your time here. Many of those on here don’t understand now but trust me they will when it’s their turn.

    There’s not an infinite pile of money. Not every job can be bailed out. It doesn’t make sense to spend billions keeping people in jobs for another year, when the companies are going to still fail anyway. It would make a lot more sense to spend money on retraining, on companies in sectors that are actually down cyclically instead of having a 30-year market share decline, or letting the private sector invest in new industries. Anything besides throwing money down a giant pit at zombie companies.

    GM and Chrysler are NOT viable and will NOT come back to life. Especially since all the GM and Chrysler defenders still exhibit the same attitudes that caused the companies’ troubles in the first place.

  • avatar
    johnthacker

    You GM and Chrysler bailout defenders, do you realize how many other peoples’ jobs are being sacrificed to keep your zombie companies alive? If you’re going to do a stimulus, it makes sense to stimulate something that might actually live past when the money runs out, instead of keeping a corpse shuffling.

  • avatar
    SamtMutt

    At least when Democrats throw around billions of dollars of taxpayer money, the intent is that the ‘common man’ shares in a portion of this payout, via continued employment, and/or being paid a living wage and decent benefits…while at least attempting to reign in RIDICULOUS levels of executive pay via salary caps, etc.

    You’re kidding right?!?

    It’s not payouts to the their Blue State supporters?!?

    Where do you get your crazy pills man?

  • avatar
    mkirk

    “At least when Democrats throw around billions of dollars of taxpayer money, the intent is that the ‘common man’ shares in a portion of this payout, via continued employment, and/or being paid a living wage and decent benefits…while at least attempting to reign in RIDICULOUS levels of executive pay via salary caps, etc.”

    Psst…The IT industry is being outsorced faster than one can log onto there computer. But the Government did give me a job when my job was outsourced to Pakistan…in the Army. Software engineer…Combat Engineer…it’s all the same right?

    I am inclined to wonder as well what makes jobs in the domestic auto industry so much more important than all those jobs once held by US developers.

    At least I can have some satisfaction that this year the UAW will get none of my tax dollars since income in combat zones is tax free.

    I do find it ironic that I will be so close to my old job in Pakistan in the near future.

    Most people have lost a job at some point and most did not have their industry supported by the taxpayer. Move on people. Man up and do what you have to to take care of your families…That is what the rest of us do in this situation.

  • avatar
    FreedMike

    gslippy :
    October 4th, 2009 at 12:17 am

    GM directly employs only 1/10 of 1% of the US workforce (#6 and falling), and Chrysler is less than half that size. Their collective demise would be unfortunate, but not deadly for the US.

    But that’s only the beginning. Then comes the people who work for their suppliers. Then come the people work for their dealers. And on and on…

    And you’re not taking into account the uneven regional impact of these failures. Kiss the state economy Michigan goodbye for starters. Next, you’ll see massive economic difficulties in car-manufacturing states, particularly Ohio and Indiana. Brace for hundreds of thousands more foreclosures, which will devastate an already devastated real estate market.

    Since no other car company is in a position to replace the missing production from GM and Chrysler overnight, look for car prices to rise, imports to rise, and competition to drop. None of this is good for consumers.

    And here’s a particularly interesting aftereffect: how many Mexicsns work for Chrysler and GM across the border, and how many of them will be swimming the Rio Grande looking for cash work shortly thereafter?

    It would be a DISASTER on many fronts.

  • avatar
    FreedMike

    mkirk :
    October 4th, 2009 at 1:21 pm

    Most people have lost a job at some point and most did not have their industry supported by the taxpayer. Move on people. Man up and do what you have to to take care of your families…That is what the rest of us do in this situation.

    Sorry, but “man up” ain’t gonna cut it. If GM and Chrysler disappear, so will those manufacturing jobs – permanently. We’re talking about hundreds of thousands of people hunting for jobs that no longer exist, period. Think it’s tough in IT? Try looking for a manufacturing job in Michigan.

  • avatar
    FreedMike

    johnthacker :
    October 4th, 2009 at 11:23 am

    You GM and Chrysler bailout defenders, do you realize how many other peoples’ jobs are being sacrificed to keep your zombie companies alive?

    How many? Please detail.

  • avatar
    mkirk

    “Think it’s tough in IT? Try looking for a manufacturing job in Michigan.”

    That’s my point…If the industry is no longer there then go to another one. If there are no jobs in Michigan then move.

    I know it sounds cold but you have to do what you have to do. I get to spend the next year in one of the genuine shitholes of the world. But my family will have a roof over there heads. Why should your situation be any different. Not saying you have to go off to war, but why should those that are doing that pay to support your comfortable way of life through our taxes.

    I am far from an isolated case. The infantry that my Engineer company supports has 4 outsourced IT guys among many from other industries and a lawyer (can’t figure that one). These are white collar guys now serving in a combat MOS. Sometimes you have to make tough decisions and take pay cuts. But who the hell are you to think that I should prop up your lifestyle.

    “Since no other car company is in a position to replace the missing production from GM and Chrysler overnight, look for car prices to rise, imports to rise, and competition to drop. None of this is good for consumers.”

    Really??? I wasn’t aware that the auto industry was running so near it’s production capacity. Does anyone really think Ford and the Import Makers wouldn’t be able to pick up and in fact be healthier as a result?

    “And here’s a particularly interesting aftereffect: how many Mexicsns work for Chrysler and GM across the border, and how many of them will be swimming the Rio Grande looking for cash work shortly thereafter?”

    While your company may be inept at doing what it is they do, I work for a company that could quite effectively secure the borders if properly equipped and supported. Would be better to do a year on the border than any of the places we currently deploy to. To hear you tell it if GM and Chrysler go under we’ll have to bring the army home anyhow as we’ll be too broke and probably have to secure the nationwide looting that will result.

  • avatar
    tooling designer

    mkirk :
    October 4th, 2009 at 10:05 pm

    That’s my point…If the industry is no longer there then go to another one. If there are no jobs in Michigan then move.

    Wow, that might be one of the most assinine things I’ve ever read. You cant let entire sections of this country die off.

  • avatar
    sutski

    “Nothing short of a real revolution will change the direction of this country.”

    You got that right.

    “I’m more of a fan of a leveling of the playing field between incumbents and challengers, such as by limiting the length of campaigns or lowering contribution limits.”

    Hmmmmm

    A single election website where each party can post their manifesto and aims with links to their own information portal.

    NO posters, placards, signs or visual pollution of the country or airwaves should be allowed.

    Contributions allowed, but must be made anonymously to the receiver, so no favors can be curried from ones “investing” in a candidate.

    All news channels coverage of election time must be limited to 1 hour per day per channel. (OK so now I’m getting some support!!)

    No term limits, if you are wanted back/again by the population, you should be allowed to stand.

    Anyway, back to work!!

    P.S Who appointed/voted for this silly woman ??!!

  • avatar
    mkirk

    “Wow, that might be one of the most assinine things I’ve ever read. You cant let entire sections of this country die”

    When industries die then it is up to the leadership of those states to step up to the challenge and bring in new ones. There was no bailout of the textile industry in South Carolina when those jobs went overseas. But South Carolina is just a little, unimportant state huh. And what about that huge bailout for the New York Computer Industry when the focus shifted to Silicon Valley. Ohh yeah…didn’t happen.

    Why don’t the transplants build in Michigan? I’ll tell you why, because the Political Leaders YOU elect make it better to do business elsewhere. There is still a thriving auto industry in the US. The companies in Michigan, with the exception of Ford, which is only doing less bad, just happen to be not part of it. If the leadership in Michigan had been responsible they would have sought to diversify by attracting transplants in addition to other industry.

    I won’t stir the pot on your Union issues, but I think it is safe to assume you know where I stand on that…There is a reason the people who build cars in the US at a profit are non-union.

    So I stand by my statements. What is assinine is that you expect me to support and bail you out. My job is to find IED’s. That is quite enough without my taxes supporting a deadbeat industry full of people too lazy to change with the times.

  • avatar
    love2drive

    This thread is the exact reason I was dismayed by the bailouts – it politicized the car industry, and brought it to the same polarized place as other political things…

  • avatar
    njdave

    tooling designer:
    You are so oversold on GM & Chrysler’s importance. By now, the level of layoffs and cutbacks to their suppliers has already risen to the point where a C7 would have a negligible impact, except in SE Michigan. As was stated above, if you can’t find a job in your area, move. That’s what my father did when his industry dried up. And you can indeed let an entire region fail. That’s better than keeping them on life support gasping for each breath and depending on others for their well being. If they go down they have no choice but to rebuild and find and develop new industries. They will never do it willingly on their own. The only way that region will improve is for it to really hit rock bottom. Look at Pittsburgh after big steel collapsed. Look at it now after it reinvented itself as a financial and computing area.

  • avatar
    tooling designer

    @ njdave

    Obviously someone else agrees with me about the importance of GM and Chrysler.

    Considering YOUR (LOL) tax dollars are going to em.

    If they were unimportant to the overall well-being of this country they would have/will be allowed to go under. BUT, since they are so important to so many they are getting YOUR (LOL) money!

    My original point holds true. As of now they are too important to the USA to go under, but since they will continue to shrink if they cannot get things right the clout of these companies will be lessend. Hence, IF THEY DON’T GET THIER SHIT TOGETHER THEY WILL GO UNDER! (ish)!

    Also, I am proud to live in an area with people who won’t cut and run when things get rough. Spare me the bullshit about how much help you think GM and Chrysler have gotten, you have no idea how much the people here have lost.

    @ mkirk

    What are my union issues again? Please inform me of them.

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