Hybrid Schmaloney

Landcrusher, you're all over the place with that last bit. Here are the basic facts: -SUV's tend to use a lot of fuel per mile driven. If that consumption is not offset with higher passenger loads, then fuel consumption per capita is also higher. We can decide whether that is a problem or not; many would argue that it is. -SUV's inflict more damage in accidents on other vehicles than do other vehicles upon them. The combination of mass and bumper height help to explain this; mass alone does not explain it. This is well documented through highway fatality and injury data that account for vehicle type and mass. -Yet SUV's have historically not been safer overall, due to the higher rollover risk. (Recent data suggest that this may be changing, though, due to greater use of stability control in the newer vehicles.) -Studies document that SUV drivers tend to be more self-oriented, less concerned about social welfare and ecology issues, and at least in certain respects, less law abiding, i.e. lower seat belt usage, greater tendency to violate anti-cell phone laws in countries where these have been imposed, etc. -Along those lines, the SUV buying demographic has evolved from being dominated by those seeking cargo carrying utility and towing capacity to include a large group seeking size, status, and a vehicle design that communicates dominance. -Automakers have evolved their SUV designs in order to appeal to these changing market tastes. That's a summary of the available data. There is some combination of vehicle and driver characteristics that create the results summarized in these bullet points above. All of us here can decide whether society should care about these factors or not. Obviously, some are predisposed to imposing legal mandates, while others are not. Not surprisingly, SUV owners tend to be more politically conservative, which coincides nicely with the social actions that they would like to see taken (actually, avoided) in respect to their choice of vehicle. So this sort of debate is fairly predictable, as the vehicle choice and politics have some correlation. It's not black and white, of course, but is weighted toward one direction.

I am all over the place according to you, but I had it narrowed down to two points and now you have a laundry list. The question is whether or not SUV-hate is justified. The answer is no. You can't make a good argument that it is, because you can't seem to settle on what the question means. First, almost EVERYONE agrees that smearing an entire class of owners is WRONG. Yet, you persist to push this whole thing about aggressive drivers self selecting SUV's and how the manufacturers actually change their products to appeal to them yet you refuse to point to one thing they did to change their product. Second, SUV's are not the only heavy vehicles. Yet no one wants to ban heavy vehicles or regulate weight. We are therefore left with bumper height as the problem - other than the drivers. I thought we were agreed on that, no? So is it appropriate to regulate bumper height, or simply be hateful about taller vehicles? What percentage of SUV-haters would be mollified if the SUV's had lower bumpers? 5%? Maybe? Laughable. I will be happy to argue about any single thing you think justifies SUV-hate. However, only one at a time, you keep moving the target and ignoring the real question.

I am not at all being disingenuous. The Navigator isn't aggressive looking in the least. The Hummer is supposed to look like a civilian version of the Hummer. So what. The Jeep has military roots and it's been the same for about, forever. If all you can do is point to the Hummer, just quit. Body on frame was used in cars for decades, especially the largest luxury vehicles, the ones everyone was taught to hate in the seventies. Now they were replaced with the SUV. Do you want to go back? Maybe you want to keep up the hate, and see if you like the results better next time? Besides that, not all SUV's ARE body on frame anymore. Does the hate not transfer to the BMW X5 and Cayenne? Hell no, they catch it double. Thanks for bringing up yet another item before admitting bumper height ain't getting you anywhere. We were having this discussion about SUV-hate vs. Prius hate and all being happy about it being wrong on both accounts until someone tried to slyly stick in an argument about how at least SUV-hate is justified. Sort of reminds me of some racism justifications, really. The hate I am talking about is a bit baser, but generally along the lines of your schtick about SUV drivers. It's the slights that folks like to stick on these threads as if they were a given. They range from whines about how SUV drivers don't care if they kill anyone, to no one needs one, to they waste fuel, to they are all driven by pricks. In the end, some dumb ass legislator will try to ride this hate to some easy votes and pass some lame legislation without ever there being a rational public dialogue. Kinda like CAFE got passed in the first place.