By on October 28, 2020

Despite governments the world over practically forcing electric vehicles down our collective throat via stringent emission standards, the average person living in North America hasn’t changed their mind on them. According to a recent survey by J.D. Power, the “Mobility Confidence Index” for battery-electric vehicles remains largely neutral.

Even as global lockdowns have made them a more viable option, with more people working from home and driving fewer miles every week, North Americans aren’t budging. In fact, citizens of the United States may actually be turning on EVs while Canadians remain slightly more agreeable  something that probably extends beyond the automotive realm.

“Automakers took a step back once the COVID-19 pandemic hit, disrupting supply chains and slowing production,” Kristin Kolodge, executive director of driver interaction & human machine interface research at J.D. Power, said in a statement. “With so many more people working from home or making shorter commutes, this is an opportunity to further tout the benefits of battery-electric vehicles and self-driving technologies. However, consumers remain skeptical because of their lack of first-hand experience with these technologies and lack of education about how and why these technologies work. Until auto manufacturers can rectify this, adoption will continue to be an uphill battle.”

Attributing a “lack of education” as the core reason people aren’t embracing every concept you’d like them to has become so commonplace in 2020 that we’re not even going to bother taking the claim seriously. The automotive industry has been using it as the default excuse for why people aren’t buying EVs in droves for years  often ignoring the very real issues of range anxiety, extended charging times, and higher-than-average pricing. Frankly, it seems like teaching people about electric cars is the best way to convince some not to buy one. That might become a serious issue as North America is estimated to see roughly 100 brand new EVs by the year 2024.

To its credit, J.D. Power did not exclusively focus on the false premise that people are just too stupid to want to buy electric vehicles and ultimately addressed concerns of battery range:

More U.S. consumers are expressing a desire for battery-electric vehicles to have a greater range, while having less patience to wait for their vehicle to charge. More than three-fourths of respondents expect a range of 300 miles or more, up three percentage points from 2019 Q3. The percentage of U.S. respondents willing to wait only 15 minutes or less to charge the vehicle to travel 200 miles has increased to 45 [percent] from 41 [percent] in 2019 Q3. Nearly four in five Canadians express a driving range preference of 450 kilometers or more, while 47 [percent] are willing to wait only 15 minutes or less to charge the vehicle to travel about 300 kilometers.

Canadians’ lowered expectations also seemed to make them more inclined to consider buying electric in general. Having surveyed around 9,000 “consumers and industry experts” in September with help from SurveyMonkey, J.D. Power found its Mobility Confidence Index for battery-electric vehicles decreasing among American drivers to 54 from 55 (on a 100-point scale) while increasing among Canadian drivers to 58 from 57. The self-driving index was even lower, dropping to 34 (from 35) in the United States with Canada remaining at 36.

Despite our belief that educating people on EVs probably wouldn’t move the needle more than a hair, direct experience might make them seem a little less ominous. The survey showed that roughly two-thirds of motorists had no first-hand experience with electric cars. Familiarizing consumers with EVs will probably take the edge off some of the presumed nervousness but only if the vehicles being tested actually suits their needs. While better (and cheaper) products are incoming, there are plenty of EVs retailing over $50,000 today that are incapable of making 300-mile round trips without stopping for a recharge. A lot of people will hop into one of those and admire the experience before opting for something less expensive, more utilitarian, and driven by gasoline.

But there’s genuine hope for electric vehicles to turn the tide. Despite the lower-than-anticipated interest, EVs will continue providing consumers with opportunities to familiarize themselves as they get increasingly better and more common. Meanwhile, autonomous vehicles seem to have freaked everyone out. According to the study, only 14 percent of people who drive a personal vehicle in the U.S. feel comfortable riding in self-driving cars.

“At the outset of the pandemic, there was uncertainty on the implications of consumer preferences, but the data tell us that attitudes on self-driving and electric vehicles have not changed,” said Jon Cohen, chief research officer at SurveyMonkey. “We continue to see that younger American have the most positive views of both self-driving and electric vehicles. Canadians also continue to have more positive views than Americans.”

While autonomous vehicles remain in reverie, around 13 percent of respondents said they’d seriously be considering buying an EV before 2022. But 30 percent said they’d probably never buy one, making the light at the end of the electric tunnel look faint. We’re inclined to believe this isn’t so much an issue with consumers but the ridiculous goals being set by governments and the automotive industry.

The industry is supposed to cater to the customer, not some new economy planned by government decree  that’s how you get turds like the Yugo 45 and Moskvitch 412. Once EVs have proven themselves superior to internal combustion vehicles and get a truly comprehensive charging grid, they’ll begin selling like hotcakes used to whenever they were wildly popular. But remaining constantly annoyed that legacy automakers can’t supply the market with electric products people will bend over backward for is why Tesla is making everyone else look like they arrived late and bitter to a party held specifically in their honor. Elon Musk and Co are actually building cars people want to buy, so they’re selling and have continued to sell as subsidies are exhausted. We know governments are mandating efficiency quotas and the green movement is deafeningly loud but it takes time to sway public opinion on a global scale. That 30 percent claiming they’ll never buy an EV may even change their minds if the next batch going into production proves to be dramatically better than their predecessors.

[Image: Scharfsinn/Shutterstock]

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104 Comments on “J.D. Power: Totally Changing Society Hasn’t Made People Want Electric Vehicles...”


  • avatar
    whynotaztec

    I wouldn’t mind having a Tesla at all, it’s just that with me driving about 2000 miles per year now, I can’t justify the cost. Without a commute to work, the only car I really want is a toy of some kind. and currently that toy gets about 12 mpg, and it doesn’t really matter in the scheme of things. I’m sure things will change.

    • 0 avatar
      SPPPP

      This is approximately what I was going to say. Electric cars make great sense for long commutes, especially in urban areas. When many commutes just simply go away, some of the justification for buying expensive, yet efficient, electric cars goes away too.

      • 0 avatar
        Luke42

        @SPPPP:
        “When many commutes just simply go away, some of the justification for buying expensive, yet efficient, electric cars goes away too.”

        It certainly changes the requirements for the vehicle.

        Since my wife and I are both working from home, it no longer makes sense to swap her Civic for a Model 3, because it went from 25,000 mils per year to about 2,000 miles per year.

        On the other hand, replacing my GMC Sierra with a 500-mile Cybertruck makes as much sense as it ever did.

        Without the 50-mile-each-way commute, having a commuter car no longer solves a problem for us. Our need for a multi-role vehicle, though, is unchanged.

        The Cyhertruck, as odd and ugly as it is, looks like a pretty decent multi-role vehicle.

        • 0 avatar
          Imagefont

          You are so not buying a Cyber Truck.

        • 0 avatar

          Agree with Covid and WFH becoming commonplace the requirements for a vehicle have changed. So instead of a relatively expensive 300+ mile EV, a 120 mile EV fits the bill for a local run around. A second hand EV at less than $10k is ideal.

          In a post covid world, any multi car family has a need for a cheap to buy and cheap to operate EV as their local run around.

    • 0 avatar
      Mackey

      Agreed. The pandemic is exactly why people WONT shift. If I don’t have consistent, daily commuting needs, why would I invest premium dollars into a vehicle where the the ROI of that investment is dependent upon years of that daily travel? Not to mention the potential uncertainty of income.

    • 0 avatar
      Lorenzo

      That’s the conundrum, isn’t it? If you don’t drive many miles, the better EVs are cost-ineffective; if you drive many miles, especially out of dense urban areas where there are chargers, battery range comes into play.

      The cost of electricity is small now, but with the possibility of fracking and the oil and gas industry being shut down, and rolling blackouts like those in California, electricity will eventually be too expensive. My provider chrges 27 cents per kWh, and says the price will have to rise to 35 cents in the near future to cover increasing costs of generation.

      Electric cars make a lot of sense in the dense Boston to Washington corridor and maga-cities like Chicago and Los Angeles, but in the West, it makes no sense at all to switch from gasoline and diesel. Unfortunately, the people making decisions are all from those dense urban areas and think the whole country is the same.

      • 0 avatar
        tomLU86

        The enlightened ones feel that they are uniquely qualified to make decisions for the betterment of humanity. ONe such decision is to reduce the use of oil.

        And they may be right. Perhaps laissez-faire does not work. Laissez-faire would not have given us emission controls in cars and pollution regulations.

        But they way they are going about it is innately dishonest, even more so than the political campaigns of both US parties, which deal in half-truths exclusively.

        No one even bothers to talk about budget deficits, or all the promised benefits for future retirees, for which there is no money.

        California wants to ban gasoline cars, yet the state’s power grid can’t generate enough electricity today.

        If Electric cars were, or are, ready for prime time, people will get them. People buy Teslas. The government did not have to force people to use smartphones–though I can see the government forcing holdouts to use smartphones, in order to more easily track (and control) people.

        Currently, electric cars do not make sense for many people. To ‘help’ electric cars, conventional vehicle prices must increase relative to electric cars, and fuel prices must increase.

        Or electric car prices must decrease relative to oil-powered cars, and range must increase.

        EVen then, guess what? If everyone wanted a Tesla, or a CHevy Bolt, or Nissan Leaf, well….prices would skyrocket, because the manufacturers can only make so many. This is not 1965, where manufacturers can belatedly add people, turn the knob to “more” and increase production (that would be the original Mustang story).

        And currently, with driving down dramatically, people’s cars will last longer and they won’t be buying as many.

      • 0 avatar

        Conventional wisdom says that EV’s are best suited to the cities while the rural areas are unsuitable for EV’s.

        The reality is somewhat different.

        In the city there are many living in apartments and condos without access to charging facilities of their own. However in rural areas land is more plentiful and access to an electrical outlet at your residence is a given. In rural areas one may have to drive 20 miles to the local gas station while your EV charges at home. Charging your EV on the public charging infrastructure is plan B, Plan A is to charge at home, therefore favoring rural areas.

        As for electricity becoming too expensive. It may well go up in price. However this impacts your home as well as your EV, so at some point it makes sense to get solar to defray the cost of buying grid electricity. Electricity need not exceed the break even point between grid electricity and locally generated electricity. Once again you do this to benefit your home, the EV comes along for the ride so to speak. Indeed if the sky really is falling and grid electricity can no longer be relied upon with frequent black outs, why not get solar and storage and convert to a grid fallback system? EV’s aren’t the driving factor, your home is.

        • 0 avatar
          ajla

          “As for electricity becoming too expensive. It may well go up in price. However this impacts your home as well as your EV, so at some point it makes sense to get solar to defray the cost of buying grid electricity.”
          “Indeed if the sky really is falling and grid electricity can no longer be relied upon with frequent black outs”

          I’m not sure you are aware how “let them eat cake” this sounds.

  • avatar
    jmo

    Matt, cut the crap with the snark. It’s very tiring. It’s like when or Tim feel the need to throw is some gold chain comment about Corvette owners or some political comment as if we give two [email protected]!’s about your policy preferences. Just talk about the cars we can do without the editorializing.

    • 0 avatar
      Matt Posky

      This is an editorial article and had already been categorized as such, hence the editorializing. I also do not expound on my policy preferences in any great detail on this website, attempt to hide it when I do touch upon them, or condemn others for sharing theirs.

      It should be painfully obvious to anybody paying attention that this electric adoption “crisis” is largely the fault of the industry itself. Tesla makes desirable EVs and they sell. Most other companies do not and we continue to hear about how the market has failed to live up to the standards set by various governments and industry heads hoping to come across as green in their latest press release.

      • 0 avatar
        Mackey

        I would contend that the reason people prefer to buy Tesla’s is the same reason people flocked to Prius’ (Priusi?) back in the mid to late 00′, and the same reason people will flock to Rivians and the like when launched. If you can say you own something that can ONLY be recognized as virtuous, you can make a statement with it, be it visually or in conversation.

        No one cares if your Ford Fusion is a hybrid because the non-hybrid versions are a commodity family car. No one cares if your Chevy Bolt is all electric, because most people won’t listen long enough past the name with no brand recognition to hear about it’s virtues.

        We remain a vapid society that puts more focus on image than impact. Teslas, et al, are the physical embodiment of a hashtag.

        AND LET ME BE CLEAR- I’m not saying they are bad (but they certainly do have some quality and ownership issues to sort out); I like many would love to own one for a daily driver. But for the average person, they are cost prohibitive unless you put a value on marketing your virtuosity and roll that into the monthly payments.

        • 0 avatar
          mcs

          @mackey: My reasons for an EV are that I’ve always been a fan of smooth, and vibration-free power with loads of torque. V-8s and V-12’s. While I still have my ICE toys, I absolutely love my daily driver EV. All the smoothness and torque of the 12, but without the headaches.

          I’m able to strip away and ignore politics. I don’t care what side of the political spectrum something is perceived to be on. I don’t care about image. I like what I like.

          “(but they certainly do have some quality and ownership issues to sort out);”

          Just because Tesla has some quality issues doesn’t mean it’s across the board for all EVs. Even then, the issues Teslas seem to have are fixable. In case you haven’t noticed, ICE vehicles have quality issues as well with numnerous recalls. Personally, I have less ownership issues than with my ICE cars. You might have issues if you live in an apartment etc., but there really aren’t issues for many of us. It’s nice having a vehicle that’s 100% fueled every morning and never having to deal with taking it someplace to fuel it. Having both ICE and EV, you really learn to hate gas station visits.

          • 0 avatar
            Mackey

            @MCS. I’m with ya. I wasn’t trying to trash Teslas or say that virtue (or even politics, which I didn’t mention) is the ONLY reason. For car guys and gals, that torque and the likely reliability of a BEV are a drug. Make mine a wagon!

            I was just saying that, while there are those among our silo who know why we love them, the numbers that are moving are helped significantly by the fact that if I say I own a Tesla, everyone knows I have something special. If I say I own a Chevy (Bolt) or any other domestic EV from a traditionally ICE brand, there is no know built in cache. It’s more like saying you have a Ferrari or a Land Rover. Both convey a certain, undiluted image, and come with specific compromises that one must accept.

            But congrats on your Tesla- I’d be happy to own one, but I’m too frugile and fear the insurance would kill me! But boy, that torque could almost be worth it. Almost. ;-)

        • 0 avatar
          Luke42

          @Mackey:
          “If you can say you own something that can ONLY be recognized as virtuous, you can make a statement with it, be it visually or in conversation.”

          That may have sold a bunch of Prii, but that’s not what keeps people driving them.

          IRL, the Prius is a boring good-life-decision commuter vehicle with cockroach-like reliability.

          If you bought a Prius, you value high-MPG low-maintenance daily reliability. There’s really nothing on the road that’s an upgrade.

          The first few months of Prius ownership may cause some smug emissions but once the novelty wears off, you’re left with the question of whether to keep the car or move on to something else.

          Turns out the Prius is a really good car to own, and well suited to an AtoB commuter/family car role. As a result, people keep them forever. Ours started every morning, and got us where I needed to go without any hassle. For over a decade.

          • 0 avatar
            Mackey

            @Luke, I don’t disagree with you at all. And if I were in the market for a commuter car/small family car, a Prius would be high on the list.

            I wasn’t suggesting that ALL Prius or Tesla buyers do it for virtue or politics at all, I was just saying that the ability to use it as a clear and easy to understand statement IS a driving force for many. ‘Car Guys/Gals’ are excluded from my assessment because we are in the minority. We definitely see a practical story there. But Tesla’s have, up until the Model 3 (and let’s face it, even with the Model 3) been fairly exclusive. It’s not that an average coworker can’t own one, but what compels them to break the bank a bit more to do so. Love of torque only goes so far for the non-car-lover.

  • avatar
    SCE to AUX

    Well, *somebody* has been buying Tesla’s EVs in record numbers during the pandemic, and without Federal incentives, while ICE mfrs slide.

    The claim that EVs appeal only to ‘rich’ people as a fashion accessory is untenable when unpretentious schoolteachers are buying them. To me, an expensive fashion accessory is the similarly-priced F-150 whose bed remains untouched for its whole life.

    As for EV surveys, I don’t believe any of the rosy ones. Any survey claiming a double-digit interest in EVs is bogus. Advertising won’t help mfrs, but word of mouth will. People are swayed by their neighbor’s testimony, not some mfr telling them what they ‘need’ or what compromises they can make to utilize an EV.

    Nissan’s 2010 studies of commuting patterns showed a very large percentage of Americans could live with a Leaf. That is still true, but most of us could also still live with a 2010 cell phone, too – but nobody wants to, because we’ve come to demand smart phone tech. This is why range expectations on EVs keeps rising well beyond what anyone ‘needs’.

    Tesla has single-handedly raised the bar by providing surprising utility and performance for its customers. But they are also hurting the EV cause with the antics of its unbalanced CEO, slavish commitment to the center screen for its future products, and other odd features like falcon doors and tricky door handles, not to mention poor quality control.

    Educating consumers is important, but the source of that education makes a difference. Government fiat isn’t the way toward more EV adoption.

    • 0 avatar
      jalop1991

      “But they are also hurting the EV cause with the antics of its unbalanced CEO, slavish commitment to the center screen for its future products, and other odd features like falcon doors and tricky door handles, not to mention poor quality control.”

      This right here. The morons that are Americans–and that includes product planners and automaker executives–have seen two things:

      1) people are buying Teslas, and
      2) Teslas have big center screens

      and have ignorantly and mistakenly inferred causation.

      A car is a car. Make it a car first–safe to drive, easy to drive, easy to keep between the lines and the shiny side up–instead of declaring that “pivoting to electric must mean we do away with the dashboard and all controls, give the user a giant iPad, and it’s OK to be built crappy. Oh, and we have to have self-driving!!!! Because Tesla!!!!!”

      That Tesla sells cars is an anomaly, not the result of doing their job particularly well. They succeed despite themselves.

      Not only don’t I want anything like that, I don’t want to be driven in anything like that. So if the world ends up being nothing but Teslas driven by Uber driver-passengers, I guess I’ll just stay home.

    • 0 avatar

      There are alot of different buyers for electric cars, just to name a few
      Green buyers
      Economical buyers
      Status buyers
      Engineering buyers
      Tesla really has managed to capture a number of these with superior range (except the econmics group who I think prefer GM or HK or maybe a little less leaf. Traveling for government contracts I have noticed alot of engineers have been buying low trim model 3s. I have a feeling that’s some showing off but some marveling at the tech.

      The Bolt was a good first shot by GM but Tesla still has a leap on them, I’m actually a bit surprised there aren’t other super range cars yet, I would have figured someone else would have gotten it down by now, but maybe it is a bit harder then the legacy makers thought.

  • avatar
    SCE to AUX

    You know, one way to inhibit EV adoption is to always show them plugged in, as though they are tethered to an anchor. The vast majority of TTAC’s EV photos are like this, except for the Hummer – yet.

    Or better yet, a fire image is helpful.

  • avatar
    aja8888

    Let’s see…conduct a survey in the middle of a pandemic about overpriced electric cars when everyone is stuck at home (not by choice) and worried about getting sick or dying.

    Looks like JD Power wanted some press and their employees needed something to look busy at or get furloughed.

    Worthless data.

  • avatar
    ajla

    The issues with BEVs are not insurmountable but they are real and I think manufacturers, governments, and BEV fans do a disservice to themselves when they handwave things away in a flurry of condescension.

    • 0 avatar
      SCE to AUX

      +1.

      I’ve just talked my coworker out of a used Leaf after telling him my experiences. His use case would be a poor fit, although he is considering a Bolt as a better option.

      The most egregious omission by mfrs is the true story about range:
      – It’s always expressed for a full 100% to 0%.
      – You don’t want to utilize either extreme.
      – Cold weather is very detrimental to range.
      – Speed is very detrimental to range.
      – Degradation is real but not equal among mfrs, and it directly affects resale value.
      – The consumer can control degradation via wise charging.
      – Roadside chargers aren’t plentiful or quick yet, so you have to plan every trip accordingly, which means giving yourself some range margin.

      Building all the above margins into the claimed range of an EV can really cut down its usable daily range, but no mfr ever wants to mention this.

      Consumers shouldn’t have to search the web to discover the truth about EVs that mfrs won’t discuss. It’s a bit like stating the potential side effects of a great medicine – you have to be honest about it.

      • 0 avatar
        Kenn

        A detailed discussion of these items listed above would have made for a much more useful article.

      • 0 avatar
        mcs

        Bolt is definitely a better option. CCS + 200+ mile range.

        “– It’s always expressed for a full 100% to 0%.”
        Yeah, but in my experience and given the robustness of the newer cathode coatings, going to 100% charge isn’t a problem. In many cases, you aren’t going to 100% anyway because of hidden reserve capacity. Having said that, on a trip, you only charge at the fastest rates to maybe 80 or so percent. My leaf, because of hidden reserve capacity (verified with diagnostic scans) will keep a max rate until 92%.

        ” Cold weather is very detrimental to range.”
        Cars with better thermal management will be better. I’m waiting for the Model 3 with the heatpump. Should be the best in cold weather.

        “Roadside chargers aren’t plentiful or quick yet,”
        Some areas of the country like here in the northeast, they are getting kind of common. What we need are gas stations to put in chargers and that seems to be happening now. I think the chargers are quick. Tesla is now talking 350 kW and Electrify America has 350kW already. Most of the time, I live off of at-home charging so I never have to take time to fuel. During the pandemic I’ve been exercising my gas cars and I’m stressed out after forgetting to check the fuel before I left and almost ran out of gas twice.

        ” The consumer can control degradation via wise charging”
        Some of the new tesla cells are testing to 2 million miles. With cells like that, you probably don’t need to worry about longevity. Those new electrode coatings really work. All of the manufacturers seem to have them, but I don’t know the production status. I guess what I’m trying to say is that degradation is a problem now, but it’s going away soon. At least for some manufacturers.

        https://tinyurl.com/y2snw7eu

        BTW, my leaf is semi-retired. I do so little driving now, the ICE cars in the collection need exercise, so they’ve been getting use on the little driving I do.

        • 0 avatar
          ajla

          Eliminating battery degradation and its relationship to an owner’s charging habits would be a big win for BEVs.

          • 0 avatar
            jalop1991

            “Eliminating battery degradation and its relationship to an owner’s charging habits would be a big win for BEVs.”

            aka, eliminating the “tsk tsk tsk, you’re not doing it right!” finger wagging from the electrogeeks who live and breathe to sniff the farts lingering in Musk’s underwear.

        • 0 avatar
          SCE to AUX

          Agreed on all of that.

          But some of those improvements are still in the future, and/or need to be communicated to the unwashed public to build confidence.

          Since I’ve been working from home, we’ve both started using the Ioniq EV for all daily driving, so the mileage has rebounded. We drive the ICE van just to keep it exercised a little.

          • 0 avatar
            mcs

            “or need to be communicated to the unwashed public to build confidence.”

            Exactly. That’s another reason they need a PR/communications dept. at Tesla. It would be nice to have info in one place. If you dig around the net, you can find speed to range charts for Tesla. They should have temp charts too.

      • 0 avatar
        28-Cars-Later

        Great points.

      • 0 avatar
        thegamper

        I am on board with EV’s as soon as their practicality and price closely match ICE vehicles. SCE to AUX’s points are exactly the issues that prevent me from pulling the trigger. The planning involved is just too much. I can’t even remember to put the icepacks from my lunchbox back in the freezer every night when I come home….I can’t remember to put the dryer on wrinkle guard….the toilet seat down…. I can’t remember more than one password for all the online accounts I have.

        Just about everyone is willing to pay MORE for convenience. So I can easily understand why a formula where you have to pay extra for less convenience is not winning over America.

        • 0 avatar

          We are experiencing a change in transportation. Change means things will be different. An expectation that EV’s will closely match ICE cars wishes for EV’s to not be different. WHat you are really wanting is for things to not change, which is understandable, but unrealistic.

          The convenience of home charging cannot be overemphasized. Instead of focusing on this many focus on the once a year road trip to the beach and how EV’s are less convenient. I prefer the daily convenience of having a full car.Gas car drivers simply accept the inconvenience of filling up and do not perceive it as a burden because they have always done it.

          • 0 avatar
            thegamper

            I don’t think it is unrealistic at all, we just aren’t there yet. There have been vast improvements in a short period of time already. Another decade or two with lots of new models and tech hitting the market, increasing R&D and I think the BEV has a very realistic chance of matching or even surpassing the conveniences we enjoy with ICE vehicles. I would say that it is inevitable, just a matter of how long it takes.

      • 0 avatar
        boowiebear

        Great summary of product downsides that are real and not desirable to large swathes of the population. I live in MN, it is butt ass cold here about 5-6 months of the year, you lose 30-40% range.

      • 0 avatar
        jalop1991

        “– Degradation is real but not equal among mfrs, and it directly affects resale value.”

        To be fair, though, how does that differ from the 50K miles I’ve put on my GTI? The car is wearing out as it ages and gets used. And that “directly affects resale value”. There’s no difference.

        • 0 avatar
          thegamper

          There is some truth to that, all cars wear out. But it has less to do with resale and more to do with function. What if your GTI at 50k miles could only go half the range it did when it was new, or if it took ever increasing amounts of time to fill up at the pump even to get the lesser range. I am oversimplifying, I know, but provided a ICE vehicle is in good working order, it works basically the same at 100k miles as it did at zero miles. I haven’t reviewed any of the battery warranties, but that is something that would definitely concern me on an EV with higher miles. I suspect the battery warranties have thresholds before replacement, something like below 60% range of new prior to 50k miles to be replace or something like that. I doubt it is easy or common to get them replaced under warranty.

        • 0 avatar
          28-Cars-Later

          I believe he means, if your marque/model has a reputation for more battery degradation vs another, it’s resale suffers more.

        • 0 avatar

          In the case of some earlier low mileage EV’s the degradation was enough that people with long commutes couldn’t make it anymore, that’s a bit different then the ICE model.

    • 0 avatar
      jalop1991

      “…when they handwave things away in a flurry of condescension.”

      This right here.

      “Oh, you’re not jumping off the cliff/sticking your head in the sand like I am only because you’re clearly an idiot.”

      Even back in Psych 101, we learned the concept of cognitive dissonance. There’s no way anyone who’s just spent $85K on up for a car will even acknowledge, let alone talk about, how bad the car is or what a mistake he made. Instead, if the world around him isn’t making the purchasing choice he made, clearly they’re all idiots.

  • avatar
    ollicat

    As someone who owns a Pacifica Hybrid (I know not full EV), I can speak to this. I love the quiet driving and saving gas on the first 33 miles. But let me tell you the issue. We took a 2000 mile family vacation to Indiana, Michigan, and Ohio. No chargers ANYWHERE. When you find one, it is being used or is damaged and not working. And then if there are working ones, they are 3 miles away. What am I supposed to do, drive over there and sit for 3 hours while it charges? I have better things to do with my time. Here is the BIGGEST issue. Even if chargers were everywhere and I had 300 mile range, I don’t want to sit for 6 hours for a full charge. I don’t want to sit for 1 hour for a 80% charge. I want to spend 5 minutes, take a pee, and go again. EV’s are not practical for many Americans because of the recharge TIME, not the range. I was very happy I could drive on gas alone because if only EV, my vacation would have been a disaster and taken twice as long to see all of what we wanted to see as we all sat around waiting for our van to charge.

    • 0 avatar
      Flipper35

      We do a lot of road trips also so a BEV would not be our primary vehicle for trips. While most would work as a commuter car, if I were buying a single use vehicle it would be a weekend toy, not a commuter car.

      When we looked at vans we didn’t want to give up the stow-n-go feature or we would have a hybrid also as my commute is 16 miles one way, though mostly highway. 6 months in with our van we have had to stow the seats dozens of times for hauling large stuff. Had we not needed to haul stuff, the nicer second row seats would be a big plus on the hybrid.

    • 0 avatar

      WHat you have discovered is that a Tesla is the only Road trip worthy BEV on the market. The 3rd party infrastructure in the US is woefully inadequate.

  • avatar
    R Henry

    The BEV future does indeed appear to be just ahead of our front bumper, but for the life of me, I just don’t understand how it is going to work.

    Over the past year, here in SoCal I have had my power cut several times due the fear of seasonal winds toppling power lines and causing wildfires. I am also enrolled in a program with SoCal Edison which provides me reduced rates if I permit Edison to shut down my AC compressor during A “DEMAND EMERGENCY.” Six times this has happened over the past year.

    Here in my SoCal Green Utopia, four coastal natural gas fired power plants were planned to shutdown in 2020 for environmental concerns. Thing is, the grid operator said “WHOA…! Without the power from those plants, we will have more politically-uncomfortable shutdowns.” The plants remain online.

    The only power generation projects which can pass muster with CARB and the Sierra Club involve unicorns and fairies. Windmills kill birds, or something, Hydroelectric is fantastic, but we can’t build any more dams due to smelt fish, native burial grounds, and/or something else. Large solar arrays (such as that Federally-funded Crescent Dunes monstrosity on I15 west of Las Vegas) never really work as promised either…you know, at night or on cloudy days. Nuclear is simply not acceptable… and… and… and. Well, nothing is really acceptable to the Greens! If only we could capture those methane Unicorn farts!

    So, we will have this shiny new fleet of high-tech BEVs and CA residents will need to choose between running their refrigerators/air conditioners, or charging their car. So, I ask…how will the Electric Future come into focus if the Greens in CA, and elsewhere, won’t permit building of the requiste expanded generating infrustructure?

    Even if battery tech matches the ease of filling a petrol tank, and the price of BEVs rivals the price of ICEs, it just doesn’t add up in the world where the environmental lobby sues to stop construction of needed infrustructure. Truth be told, the Environmental lobby won’t be happy until we regress to using bicycles.

    • 0 avatar
      Scoutdude

      Yeah a couple EVs here or there aren’t a big deal but when they make up a significant number of vehicles on the road the existing infrastructure and generation capacity just isn’t going to cut it.

    • 0 avatar
      aja8888

      R Henry: What you need is a gasoline fired home generator capable of running your home appliances and charging your EV. Simple, yet $12,000 out of pocket.

      • 0 avatar
        R Henry

        I have already purchased a small but smokey ring-ding two-stroke generator to run my refrigerator during the long outages…those are NOT survivable without cold beer.

        As for a larger unit to run the whole house and charger, I think I will go with a nice, older diesel unit.

      • 0 avatar
        volvo

        @aja

        I am assuming your post is sarcasm.

        I have it on good authority that fossil fueled electricity generation has to be at least 30 miles from the charging point for your car to be classified as a zero emission vehicle.

        Once we gain control of those pesky laws of gravity, physics and chemistry nothing will stand in the way of our shining path.

        • 0 avatar
          aja8888

          Volvo, no it’s not sarcasm, he really needs a whole house generator if power outages are common (forget about the EV for a moment). If natural gas is available where he lives, that’s a better alternative to gasoline or diesel fuel for the generator. We are in Houston, Texas and have bad storms and hurricanes so big generators are handy.

          • 0 avatar
            NigelShiftright

            I’ve got a 20KW generator running off the gas well on the other side of my property. (Hooray for fracking!)

            But that’s not the ultimate. The ultimate would be a mini thorium nuke in a 6×6 shed in my back yard. Off the grid peace and plenty forever.

        • 0 avatar
          Old_WRX

          @volvo,

          “Once we gain control of those pesky laws of gravity, physics and chemistry nothing will stand in the way of our shining path.”

          Don’t let Murphy hear you saying that.

    • 0 avatar
      SCE to AUX

      @R Henry:

      Your comment indicates that you know this, but SCal is a bubble that is not representative of the rest of the country. Here in western PA, my only outages are rare, and they are due to trees taking out power lines, and the occasional errant squirrel. Then the power is restored in a few hours. The only messages I get from First Energy are marketing for light bulbs and tree trimming.

      In this area, EVs are still rare. Environmentalism here means “coal is found in the environment”, and gun control means using two hands. I don’t receive a discounted electric rate for having an EV, or for any special time of day. My power is cheap, however.

      I’ve mentioned this before, but IMO infrastructure can easily keep up with EV growth. A BEV future won’t happen overnight. As it is, EVs comprise a miniscule fraction of the US fleet, and even a 10x increase in their presence would have a negligible effect on the grid. But, this may not be so true in SCal.

      I agree with you about the national/global environmental lobby, and their ultimate goal is to snuff out Enemies of the Earth, which of course excludes them.

      • 0 avatar
        R Henry

        @SCE to AUX

        CA has been, and continues to be in many ways, the forerunner of US cultural and political trends. It is pretty difficult to construct an argument against these assertions.

        I know that residents of Western PA have enjoyed resurgent economic growth related to the recent expansion of petroleum exploration and extraction. This, of course can change very quickly due to political developments.

        The Californication (Ha!) of the rest of the nation is not a fringe thought–already 13 other states have adopted CA’s auto emissions standards. Did you know environmental groups successfully sued the Navy and Marine Corps to stop live fire on the their training grounds? –because ENVIRONMENT!! Yes, that is correct…according to Greens, groundwater purity at training facilities is MORE important that teaching recruits how to defend their country–and how to survive.

        I frequently consider leaving my lifelong home here in CA, but whenever I look closely at possible new home states, I see all sorts of indicators that Californication is already in progress in those places. I don’t really have anyplace to go….except SD maybe, but I don’t think I could tolerate the winter there.

        • 0 avatar
          ajla

          “It is pretty difficult to construct an argument against these assertions.”

          You guys were having rolling blackouts 20 years ago and you’re dealing with it again, but over those 2 decades that situation didn’t spread to the rest of the country.

      • 0 avatar

        Alot of the northeast is at it’s limits with the grid too. Alot of it is poor regulation and outright deregulation , has lead to companies charging and arm and a leg while basically keeping the network patched together instead of actually upgrading it. After 30-40 years like this the politicians finally seem like they are getting enough heat to do something about it but what remains to be seen.

    • 0 avatar
      Old_WRX

      R Henry

      ” Truth be told, the Environmental lobby won’t be happy until we regress to using bicycles.”

      They won’t be happy until humans are eliminated. Misanthropy is their MO.

    • 0 avatar
      FreedMike

      The solution to R Henry’s quandry is simple: a market economy.

      If a) more electricity is needed, and b) the electricity needs to be generated cleanly, that’s exactly what will happen if c) there’s money to be made.

      It’s not about being “green” unless the green you’re talking about is the color of money. And don’t kid yourself…money’s to be made out of this deal.

  • avatar
    redgolf

    Me, I’m looking into a Harley Davidson Serial 1 E bike
    coming
    out in 2021, I need the exercise without dripping in sweat,
    maybe get a saddle bag and ride it to the grocery store!;-)

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2020/10/28/harley-davidson-moves-quickly-launch-new-e-bicycle-brand/3746133001/

  • avatar
    Menar Fromarz

    Looked at a Leaf, but where I live they are still thin on the ground, after 10 years, and the ones that I looked at have all come in from the US as 3 year lease returns and flooded the market in the us, so Canadian dealers were bringing them in by the boatloads. But then, the Leaf battery issues, coupled with range issues, and lack of reasonable ways to bring it into my area from the Vancouver area made a used Volt a reality. And with no range issues, we couldn’t be happier. A sharp car, in black over black leather, we only run the gas motor when it starts it occasionally.
    There is a world between the Mitsu golf cart, and high end Teslas etc, and GM coming out with the Hummer is on the high end of yawn. As useless to us as a skateboard. And until our Tesla truck is made, if we do carry through, we’re just fine with what we have.
    But if you try an EV, most everything else seems like a damn nice buggy whip.

  • avatar
    MKizzy

    If autonomous vehicle technology is perfected, it will be a boon for improving the mobility of elderly and physically challenged owners. The societal benefits to the rest of us outside of increased convenience is questionable.

    Widespread EV adoption must include the charging infrastructure to support it to account for periods of high charging demand patterns and the inevitable bad habits of future EV owners like blocking charging access to others by leaving fully charged vehicles parked at charging stations for hours at a time.

    Finally, why are EVs so fast? Vehicle crash mitigation systems will have to be advanced enough to prevent the carnage on the roads likely to result once once millions of below average drivers get behind the wheel of EVs capable of sub 4 second 0-60 times.

    • 0 avatar
      mcs

      “below average drivers get behind the wheel of EVs capable of sub 4 second 0-60 times”

      EVs have “efficiency” or “long range” modes that tame the acceleration and the throttle response. It gives you a lot of control in heavy traffic too.

    • 0 avatar
      NigelShiftright

      “Finally, why are EVs so fast?”

      May not be a problem with Teslas or any other EV that lets the manufacturer dink with your car via wifi.

      Get clocked doing 72 in a 70 with your Model S? The day may come when Smokey can brick your ride as soon as he takes his eye off the radar readout.

      • 0 avatar
        28-Cars-Later

        “The day may come when Smokey can brick your ride as soon as he takes his eye off the radar readout.”

        Stop the planet, I want to get off.

        • 0 avatar
          FreedMike

          They could just as easily do that with any modern vehicle. This assumes, of course that the courts would give this practice their blessing. I think it’d be a pretty tough sell unless the cops could prove the driver is actively resisting arrest.

          Personally, I’d have no problem with “flipping the off switch” on some idiot who decided it was time for him to star on “Eyewitness News Car Chase Of THe Day” doing 130 on a crowded freeway in broad daylight. Might actually be safer for all involved, if you think about it. Ditto for the “ghost rider” crotch rocket jockeys.

        • 0 avatar
          Old_WRX

          28-Cars-Later,

          “Stop the planet, I want to get off.”

          Really, these snoopaholics are going way too far. People will argue, “Why would you care if you’re not doing anything wrong?” Anyone with a brain knows that privacy is a necessary part of decent life, period.

          • 0 avatar
            28-Cars-Later

            If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear

            XO,

            Big Brother

            “Arguing that you don’t care about the right to privacy because you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don’t care about free speech because you have nothing to say.”[17] “When you say, ‘I have nothing to hide,’ you’re saying, ‘I don’t care about this right.’ You’re saying, ‘I don’t have this right, because I’ve got to the point where I have to justify it.’ The way rights work is, the government has to justify its intrusion into your rights.”

            -Snowden

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nothing_to_hide_argument

      • 0 avatar
        jack4x

        “The day may come when Smokey can brick your ride as soon as he takes his eye off the radar readout.”

        That day arrived more than a decade ago, when OnStar introduced the stolen vehicle shutdown capability. I’m not typically a tinfoil hat kind of guy but the day I heard this was possible I physically removed the Onstar module from my car.

    • 0 avatar
      NigelShiftright

      “If autonomous vehicle technology is perfected”

      Not to beat a dead horse, but there will be no true autonomous vehicle until you can legally fill all its seats with people none of whom have driver’s licenses or liability insurance, and travel from any given Point A to any given Point B.

    • 0 avatar
      SCE to AUX

      “Finally, why are EVs so fast?”

      1. Because they can be.

      2. Because Tesla decided that EVs needed to break out from the stereotype of the CitiCar and EV1, and be cool and appealing instead.

      3. Fast EVs don’t cost much more to build than slow ones.

      4. Additional traction is achieved via AWD – which everyone *must* have so they don’t die – and the extra motors add available power and quickness.

      5. Quick EVs make little to no sacrifice in efficiency.

      Not all EVs are lightning quick, though. My Ioniq EV goes 0-60 in 10 seconds, which is plenty for me.

    • 0 avatar
      Old_WRX

      28-Cars-Later,

      “If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear”

      Nothing to fear but the loss of quality of life. As I recall, when I was young (somewhere along about the stone age), adults would tell children that snooping on people was rude.

      Snooping is still rude (don’t know whether it comes under macro- , mini- or microaggression statutes) and degrading.

  • avatar
    ltcmgm78

    I believe there will be improved technology to come for battery-powered electric vehicles. If your situation allows it, by all means buy an electric vehicle, but don’t expect me to subsidize your purchase. We bought an off-lease Chevy Volt last May for about $18K and it has been a great car — we sure would not have bought it for list price minus a tax subsidy. We’ve purchased gas twice. It’s great not to have that range anxiety holding over our heads, and I never understood why Chevy walked on the Volt. It was a great intermediate step. But GM tends to bag cars when they finally refine them. I’m sure one reason the demand for electric cars isn’t higher is because people are waiting for the tech to settle. Gas isn’t outrageously high and drivers have longer commutes/drives in the U.S. When the tech stabilizes, so should prices.

  • avatar
    dividebytube

    Before COVID hit – and my resulting pay cut – I was going to buy a Tesla 3 Dual Motor for my birthday. That turned into a Bronco since it will be about $15k cheaper.

    Now that I’m a uh contractor worker – and don’t have a steady paycheck – I’m down to driving my wife’s 2008 Infiniti for as long as it will go.

    She has the Mustang now.

    When some co-workers asked, pre-COVID, what I was going to buy next she told them it was a Tesla. And they made disparaging remarks about the brand, wondering why I would want to drive such a vehicle. And these were attorneys who make some good $$.

    Go figure. I want the performance of the Tesla, not necessarily the big middle screen and so-so build quality.

    • 0 avatar
      NigelShiftright

      “I want the performance of the Tesla, not necessarily the big middle screen”

      In fairness, just about every manufacturer thinks drivers have been demanding the requirement to take their eyes off the road and poke around on a screen. Tesla just takes this to its logical extreme.

    • 0 avatar
      jalop1991

      “I want the performance of the Tesla, not necessarily the big middle screen and so-so build quality.”

      But that’s not what the industry hears. They see “he bought Tesla” and “Tesla have big screen and can be built crappy” and have declare that the latter caused the former–

      –and that means they, too must do exactly the same thing in order to compete. #MeToo!

      So what we get are unusable wheeled iPads built by trainees.

  • avatar
    FreedMike

    The problem in the U.S. with EV tech isn’t that people don’t like it – it’s that it hasn’t been introduced widely in trucks and SUVs, which are the types of vehicles Americans buy in the largest numbers. That’s going to change in the next few years. And once people get a taste of it, they’ll like it. I mean, what’s wrong with a pickup that goes 0-60 in four and a half seconds, still hauls the family, and can be “filled up” in the garage every night? Not much that I can think of, as long as the price is reasonable.

    • 0 avatar
      NigelShiftright

      Once I see some EVs that will climb my 1100 foot long driveway, with some spots with 1:5 grades, in seven inches of snow (which my Outback with Nokians on the rims takes in stride), for a competitive price, I’ll certainly consider them.

    • 0 avatar
      jkross22

      Until the infrastructure is built for it and charging times reduced, demand for EV SUVs won’t be a silver bullet. Do you want your wife and kids tethered to chargers that may or may not be working or available when you need them?

      Hybrids are fine, but unless your use case for eSUVs includes short commutes only, the idea of waiting for your eExplorer to charge before the trip can continue is silly.

      • 0 avatar
        FreedMike

        @jkross:

        For now, the folks buying EV SUVS and trucks will likely have the same infrastructure that the overwhelming majority of Tesla buyers do: a charging place in their garage. You just charge up overnight. That means 200+ miles of range for the next day. Given that, what are the chances my theoretical wife and kiddies are going to run out of juice on the way back from karate class? I don’t see the issue, and I bet most people who would buy an EV SUV or truck won’t either. I think plenty of Mr. and Mrs. America types are going to LOVE a big, powerful, fast ‘Murican (i.e., truck or SUV) vehicle that they just plug in every night…same as their Iphones.

        As more of these folks buy EVs, the charging infrastructure for people who don’t have a dedicated place to charge up will likely follow. It won’t happen immediately, but it will happen. There’s money in this, after all.

  • avatar
    Felix Hoenikker

    It’s all about the batteries
    They are simply too expensive to compete in performance with ICE engines now. Case in point, I am in the market for a new chainsaw to replace the 30+ year old Echo 24″ model that won’t start due to a carbureator problem. Today, I looked at a video comparing four BEV chainsaws to a Stihl two stroke gas powered model. The prices for the electric chain saws ranged from $200 -400 USD. The Stihl was $190. While the cutting performance of the electric models could compare favorably to the two stroke ICE, the battery run times were problematic with only the battery powered chain saws costing twice as much as the ICE lasting more than 20 minutes with no load. None of the electric saws could operate continuously while the spare battery was being recharged. This is a big problem for me as I sporadically use the chain saw for hours on end. Then it sits unused for weeks or more. I need a saw that can run more or less continuously by charging one battery and using the other.
    So what has this to do with BEV cars? Simply that the charging time of inexpensive Li Ion batteries are too long for hand held tools. In my case, I would love to have a BEV vehicle but the cost of a battery pack that can recharge in a reasonable time it too high. Hence the high cost of Tesla or Chevy Volt battery pack. I don’t see how BEV vehicles will become competitive with ICE vehicles at current prices unless the battery cost and recharging issues are fixed.
    So

    • 0 avatar

      Power equipment is funny, My weed wacker does my whole yard on one battery so that’s great. Leaf blower is good for blowing down the patio and driveway but I still haul out the gas for end of fall leaf clean up. Chainsaws are similar, if your going to cut the occasional branch cordless is great. If your cutting wood for the winter not so much. I keep my 20 year old Husqvarana running for that reason. But given the limited use I have switched too buying the premixed and stabalized gas at Lowes, which so far has eliminated all the gas issues I had before.

  • avatar
    boxcarclassic

    In America you have roughly just under 300 million vehicles.Not counting millions of semi trucks. Even if you wanted to get 20% of all vehicles on electric. Thats roughly 60 million! You will need to build many power plants and use coal or natural gas. Because our electrical grid infrastructure is 100 yrs old with no real upgrades. So unless the system is put in place for this,then we cant do it.Because that much energy would not handle our current lines and we would be in perpetual blackouts and eventually fry the system. Instead of jumping on liberal/commie bandwagons.Maybe we should think a bit more instead of feel good ideologies that cant work right now.

  • avatar
    boxcarclassic

    In America you have roughly just under 300 million vehicles.Not counting millions of semi trucks. Even if you wanted to get 20% of all vehicles on electric. Thats roughly 60 million! You will need to build many power plants and use coal or natural gas. Because our electrical grid infrastructure is 100 yrs old with no real upgrades. So unless the system is put in place for this,then we cant do it.Because that much energy would not handle our current lines and we would be in perpetual blackouts and eventually fry the system. Instead of jumping on liberal/commie bandwagons.Maybe we should think a bit more instead of feel good ideologies that cant work right now.

    • 0 avatar
      volvo

      Let’s see
      Current infrastructure limits the number of vehicles that can be BEV.

      So: Bevs are mandated you are are a central planner and faced with two choices.

      1. Increase infrastructure to support number of BEVs desired by the population.

      2. Keep infrastructure like it is and let the number of privately owned vehicles decline to fit the infrastructure.

      Which do you think is the most likely outcome?

      • 0 avatar
        boxcarclassic

        I dont think you truly understand the scam! This country has not had a new gasoline refinery built since 1979. These crazy politicians wanna end oil drilling and gas drilling. Obama shut the coal industry down, then trump opens it up.You cant have revolving door policy every election. The greenies goal is to shut America down. If this doesnt resonate with you,then do yourself a favor and research the true agendas happening.

  • avatar
    stuki

    “Even as global lockdowns have made them a more viable option, with more people working from home and driving fewer miles every week, ”

    The poster child use case for BEVs is specifically that of the regular, predictable commute: Charge at home (and possibly at work).

    Uncertainty of any kind, works against BEVs. “Average” miles driven has precious little bearing on their suitability. The predictability, or lack thereof, of how those miles are racked up, is what counts.

  • avatar
    Dan

    One, the world has gone to hell and this isn’t the time to ask people to give up their illusions of control on a ride that isn’t anymore. Looking down and seeing double digit miles to E with an hours long recharge sucks. Knowing that I can’t even hop a curb if I have to sucks. Knowing that neither of these will put the world back on its tracks doesn’t make them suck any less.

    Two, the world has gone to hell and this isn’t the time to go sign up for a four figure car note. The press noise is all Cybertruck this and Hummer that but the affordable electrics are depressing little blobs for dweebs – and still cost as much as a normal car you’d actually want.

  • avatar

    Electric vehicles appeal to the socially conscious wealthy. A working-class person is highly unlikely to purchase an EV. This is what makes the EV hummer so ludicrous. The original Hummer was the antithesis of an EV. The last thing conservative pick-up and SUVs customers want is an electric vehicle.

  • avatar
    Jeff S

    @Felix Hoenikker–Thank you and I completely agree. I have tried cordless battery charged yard equipment in the past and I have had the same experience–I still use some but for short time jobs. I also don’t want to pay 50k and up for an EV when I put 2k miles a year and mostly work at home and when I commute I take the Park and Ride which my employer pays for. I might be interested in a small less expensive EV that is used or costing 20k or less but those are not available but if I decide to eventually move to a retirement community I might just buy an electric golf cart for short trips. The cost of replacement batteries, the high cost of EVs, and the limited charging along with long charging times just don’t work for me at the present time. This is not to say that I would never buy an EV but now it is not a practical alternative.

  • avatar
    28-Cars-Later

    “That might become a serious issue as North America is estimated to see roughly 100 brand new EVs by the year 2024.”

    Its nearly 2021, and a hundred *more* models are incoming? After a year long pandemic delaying R&D?

    “To its credit, J.D. Power did not exclusively focus on the false premise that people are just too stupid to want to buy electric vehicles and ultimately addressed concerns of battery range:”

    On the bet people as a whole people are stupid, there is simply no way my wager is against it but people just don’t want EVs and short of Peak Oil that isn’t going to change.

  • avatar
    DC Bruce

    In the absence of truly quick recharge ability, the class of potential EV owners is limited to those who have their own garage with an overnight 220V charger installed. People with no garage, or no off-street parking are excluded, along with residents of multi-family unit dwellings, whether they have garages or not.

    Even government subsidies to promote the construction of charging stations isn’t going to materially change that situation. Besides, if one assumes the development and deployment of rapid charge capability, scaling it up will require major facilities upgrades. A bank of such chargers will have a massive current demand likely requiring a major upgrade of the distribution network feeding that charger bank.

    • 0 avatar
      mcs

      “those who have their own garage”
      You absolutely do not need a garage. An outdoor NEMA 14-50 outlet or even a 20a outdoor outlet will work as well.

      In my area, we’re seeing multifamily developments getting chargers.

    • 0 avatar

      Those living condos and apartments not only find their homes without charging facilities, the building managers and/or HOA actively prevent an EV owner from installing an EV charging station even when the owner offers to cover the entire cost.

      Right-to-charge laws are only adopted by a handful of states and need to be adopted nationwide.

  • avatar

    I find it interesting that increased emission regulations are interpreted as the govt ramming EV’s down our throats.

    Emission regulations were not introduced to promote EV’s. They were introduced to clean up the air. In much the same way that regulations banned smoking in public places cleaning up the air inside a building, emissions regulations clean up the air outside. I see no problem with wanting to do this.

    Covid shutdowns demonstrated clearly that when we stop driving gasoline vehicles the air cleans up very nicely. Emissions are good for our health, they are not some sort of political foil intended to remove our freedoms.

    EV’s are better for us and a much better to drive. What isn’t there to like?

  • avatar
    Old_WRX

    Judging by all the the todo in the “news” lately the next CV shutdown will be coming to a state near you soon. Of course the timing has nothing to do with the election — even notice the proximity would be indulging in conspiracy theory. These p(l)an(dem)ics are the worst. El Paso has already imposed a shutdown…

  • avatar
    Boxerman

    What about electro magnetic radiation exposure inside your ev.
    Lots of ways the ev revolution can go wrong.

    At this point even as a lux vehicle you’re paying 30% more for an equivalent ev.
    From a performance perspective (not including track where ev’s suck) an ev is an infinitely superior powertrain.

    In the span of an hour I drove a base model 3 and then went back to my remapped e46 M3. The M3 felt like it was slow slow slow noisy vibratey and inconsistent. The immediate and accurate power response of the tesla, the sheer smoothness and strength of accleration are hard to beat.

    Its like comparing lighting wood fire to cook and turnign on an electric oven.

    Im a car guy and have fast road cars and track cars, I like my stick shifts too. But fact is for road use, and electric is a way superior drive in every sense. Its the future, but there are numerous obstacles to cross. 1. cost 2. Range/recharge 3, grid power generation.

    1 and 2 are either going to be swept aside by legislation/mandates or new battery tech. BEVs are coming, just not so fast.

    In the meantime I use my Tundra to tow track car to the track, that can be a 250-300 mile round trip in a day. theres no way a battery truck will hack that range with towing. My Ice track car will run 40 mins flat out with a refuel taking 5 mins, it also weights 2200lbs saving tires and brakes.

    For a BEV track car to work(ie all day, not just a few laps) its estimated battery power density needs to rise 8 fold.

    On the other hand once Tesla or ferrari releases a BEV sportscar(for the road) its objective metrics will mean ICE sportscars will simply be totaly outclassed in a road use context.

    Realisticaly no road car is using more than 20% capacity other than for short bursts and weight is irrelevant if it does not impact efficiency, thats why BEVs can work on road and not on track where weight is crucial and 100% of power is used 90% of time.

    For the road and fun weekend use Ill take the promised telsa roadster over a cayman Gt4.

    • 0 avatar
      volvo

      Agree with the sports car BEV superiority.

      Living near the Silicon ghetto there was a time in the late aughts I was cruising up I280 northbound going with the flow (about 75 MPH) when a small red sports car merged from Sand Hill Road onto 280. It is uphill from there and the car just accelerated and disappeared. I knew it wasn’t an F! and that it looked like a lotus. Later learned it was a first gen Tesla roadster. Fastest accelerating car I had ever seen outside the track.

      The base price of the 2010 Tesla roadster was $120K with a $50K deposit

      The new generation Tesla roadster is now available for order with $50K deposit on MSRP $200K the balance due on delivery. Deliveries expected sometime 2022-2023.

      First 1000 produced will be called “Founder’s Edition” and priced at $250K. Deposit for these first 1000 cars is the full price when placing order reservation. Sales tax and registration on that vehicle in California would be about $25K. Truly a car for the 0.1 percent.

      The prototype performance numbers however are astounding. 0-60 1.9s, 1/4 mile under 9s, tops speed 250mph and range 620 miles.

      IMO with current US driving laws and highway conditions the only time you could wring this bad boy out would be merging onto a freeway with the flow of traffic in maybe 3 seconds. Even in Europe there are only a few KMs of autobahn left with unlimited speed allowed. Maybe the market will be in the Gulf States.

    • 0 avatar
      ajla

      But some people still enjoy cooking on wood.

      BEVs can achieve extremely impressive acceleration, but I’m not sure I agree that means a GT4 is fully outclassed in a “road use context”. Shifting for yourself at 8000RPM is a thrilling experience for most people and it’s something that you just aren’t going to get from a BEV. Yes, every shift in your Porsche won’t be one at redline, but every stoplight in your Tesla won’t be a 2.0s 0-60 time either.

      I actually think sub $100K sports cars are where BEVs will have the slowest adoption. Partly because the volume for that segment is miniscule and partly because buyers aren’t necessarily going for “objective metrics”. I mean a Miata is worse than many vehicles based on spreadsheet data. But it is still very good at being a Miata.

      • 0 avatar
        Boxerman

        Sadly very very few enjoy shifting themselvs at any RPM.
        The “upscale” car brands Ferrari Lambo Maclaren and others don’t even offer self shift as an option. Their buyers are obsessed with and motivated by the objective stats of what their cars “can do” even though the owners never actualy do it.

        Ill add to that EPS and a whole host of modern touches have taken cars from being a viceral experince to just another car. What seperates the modern supercar from something ,more pedestrian is its doors, its styling, maybe noise and sheer accleration. Sure an electric supercar will loose noise, but it will more than make up for that in objective stats(off track). Given thats what motivates 99% of poseur buyers, Ferrari et al will be compeled to offer the electric supercar.

        For a weekend blast and track use the cayman GT4 is probably the single best car out there today. And while a GT4 clubsport is paddle only, track only its laptimes are not far off a senna GTR which is track only also, but for 15% of the senna price. Ill also note that very few drivers cane extract max performance on track froma Gt4 clubsport let alone a senna GTR, and you have to be young enough to be physicaly fit enough to handle those forces.

        For most owners then its an ego thing of what their car can do. In that context the electric sportscar will be so superior that they’ll sells becaise objectively its just too much of a leap.

        Even subjectively the sheer thrust and acuracy with which you can mete out power gives an electric something special no ice can match.

        Im no electric fanboi, 4 of my 3 fu road cars are stick and even my track car is stick. Electrics though have undeniable objective and even some subjective advantges.

        In a modern ICE car I think turbos eps, brake by wire and paddles already ruin it, at that point why not just go electric which has more performance and frankly far more throttle pedal acuracy, you loose a little noise but with rare excepetions moderns sound flatulent anyway.

        All is not lost however. The component car industry will continue to offer ver more acurate copies of your favorite ICE car. Course it means gettign over brand snobbery some suffer from, but for real drivers its all about how it goes.

  • avatar
    Midnightdistortions

    You won’t be able to change American minds or rather the idea that “electric is better”. They already made up their minds on liking Chevy vs Fords, gas, diesel, hybrids and other fuel sources.

    You still have the same people say electric vehicles are slow. I have my own reasons why I won’t ever buy an EV like others. Batteries is the biggest reason, with the longevity being shorter than 7 years. Some people have stated dealers have said it’ll cost over $15,000 to replace because they say replacements are on short supply then offer the latest model for $30,000. Its among the different reasons I won’t buy one, next to I don’t want to be forced into electric and I don’t make enough money and it’s cheaper to fix my own gasoline vehicles than worrying over how much money I’ll need to replace the battery or the car.

    Many others have similar mindsets. Forcing electric vehicles will just make people more upset and you won’t get anywhere but more unrest. Seeing there is so many against electric vehicles the “electric revolution” may never happen.

  • avatar
    Midnightdistortions

    You won’t be able to change American minds or rather the idea that “electric is better”. They already made up their minds on liking Chevy vs Fords, gas, diesel, hybrids and other fuel sources.

    You still have the same people say electric vehicles are slow. I have my own reasons why I won’t ever buy an EV like others. Batteries is the biggest reason, with the longevity being shorter than 7 years. Some people have stated dealers have said it’ll cost over $15,000 to replace because they say replacements are on short supply then offer the latest model for $30,000. Its among the different reasons I won’t buy one, next to I don’t want to be forced into electric and I don’t make enough money and it’s cheaper to fix my own gasoline vehicles than worrying over how much money I’ll need to replace the battery or the car.

    Many others have similar mindsets. Forcing electric vehicles will just make people more upset and you won’t get anywhere but more unrest. Seeing there is so many against electric vehicles the “electric revolution” may never happen.

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