By on January 14, 2008

v525690yulrchfl.jpgI read a disturbing comment over at Jalopnik today. It was underneath a post by former TTAC'er Jonny Lieberman on the stress of covering the North American International Auto Show. RLJ676 accused me of wishing for our domestic automakers' downfall, and then attacked TTAC's posting policy. "Further, he runs the place like a fascist and bans for disagreeing with him under the guise that it was a 'flame.' That's what leads to (nearly) everyone on that site agreeing, coincidentally, with all of his articles, etc. Like I said, there's very little 'truth' to be had." I am well aware of TTAC's rep for dwelling on Detroit's dark side. And I know plenty of people see our no-flaming policy as thinly-veiled editorial censorship. When I contemplate these issues, I sometimes wonder if TTAC is not just a lone voice in the wilderness, but an unimportant one. We are so far out of the mainstream we barely get our feet wet. Is it worth it? What's the point? All I can say is that my high school's motto was "For the honor of truth." Not the popularity of truth, or the rich financial rewards of truth. The honor. OK, it's also fun to be the asshole sometimes. But as long as there is ONE visitor who shares the site's crusade for honesty and integrity in an industry that we love– yes, love– then WTH, we'll keep at it. For now, it's time to rest. Perchance to dream. Aye, there's the rub. 

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49 Comments on “TTAC Did Detroit...”


  • avatar

    They want import car owners to come back to to the domestics but yet they don’t want to hear from those who chose to turn away from Detroit.

    If you want import customers to purchase domestic, it would be wise to listen to them but such is not the case.

    Cheerleading does Detroit no favors.

  • avatar
    Strippo

    I read that comment last week. I thought it was telling that the post was unambiguously abusive and highly charged, and yet his position was that he was censored by you merely for disagreeing with you. Knowing TTAC’s unique mandate of civility, I realized right away that the guy had totally discredited himself. Don’t sweat it. The prevalence of mediocrity does not justify the abandonment of higher aspirations. Quite the opposite.

  • avatar
    CSJohnston

    Its too bad Jonny (or the guy using his handle) feels that way about TTAC.

    Is TTAC the sole home of automotive truth and journalistic integrity? I don’t think so but it is one of them. My best university prof always said to get your facts from as many sources as possible (primary first, then secondary if you must), then one might glean some of the truth of the matter.

    This site bugs me as often as not but I keep coming back for more day in and day out as it always makes me think.

    Keep fighting your fight RF `cause no one else will do it for you!

    CJ

  • avatar

    I simply can’t deal with people who can’t accept that a brand they “root for” is actually crap.

    Sure, I like Chrysler. Do they build some awful cars? Oh, yes…

    At least we get some unvarnished info from this site.

  • avatar
    Jordan Tenenbaum

    A little bit of civility(what I consider to be the so-called censorship) goes a long way. Has anyone ever glanced at some of the comments left on LLN articles? Proof positive that unattended garbage will stick up the whole house. I’m stickin’ with TTAC.

  • avatar
    oboylepr

    RLJ676 accused me of wishing for our domestic automakers’ downfall

    He/She hasn’t spent much time on TTAC if he thinks that. Sounds like a sore-ass who got on the wrong side of the rules. I like Ford, I can take or leave Chrysler and I absolutely loath GM but having said that, I do not wish for the downfall of any of them. The truth is though that they deserve to die because of the complete ineptitude of their leadership. Now, Cerberus will eventually drag Chrysler kicking and screaming into profitability and I expect them to go to extremes to pull this off. I think Mr. Mullally will succeed in putting Ford back on the map although I wish he would hurry up. GM? well let’s just say it appears to me that they have not even started to do the massive surgery that corporation needs to save it’s life. It’s a terminal patient that will go out in a pine box and the responsibility lies solely with it’s leadership.
    It’s not the workers
    not the engineers
    not their suppliers
    not the UAW
    not shop floor management
    not healthcare
    it’s not even the bean counters for Pete’s sake.
    Just the Senior Leadership, their sidekicks and a Board who haven’t the gumption to fire the lot of them. Like you Robert I would love to see GM beat the rap! I really would. But they haven’t a snowball’s chance in hades of pulling it off with the current crop of ‘leaders’. TTAC doesn’t hold back, nor should it and the reason why so many agree with what’s posted here in editorial and comment is because TTAC is the only one who tells it like it is. So pay no attention to your detractors Robert, TTAC’s record speaks for itself. If TTAC writers think a Honda or Toyota or BMW or anything else is a POS, they say so. 30 seconds browsing TTAC’s archives proves this beyond all doubt.

    RF you are doing a great job, keep it up!

  • avatar

    Ecoblast – I’ve had that a few times on Canoe trip after too many canned beans.
    What was with the ZR1 intro? It looked like they raided the closest strip clubs possible for both the costumes and the dancers. One of them even did her act.

  • avatar
    AuricTech

    @CSJohnston: I went to Jalopnik to read the thread for myself. It was a Jalopnik Question of the Day: “Are You As Burned Out on Detroit As We Are?” Mr. Lieberman’s question, referring only to the Detroit Auto Show, was “what would you like to see us covering besides auto shows?”

    RLJ676 was the one who chose to claim that TTAC’s Robert Farago “runs the place like a fascist and bans for disagreeing with him under the guise that it was a ‘flame’.”

  • avatar
    carguy

    As any TTAC veteran knows – we’re not here as cheerleading fanbois on any brand’s behalf, domestic or otherwise. We are here because we have an interest (understatement of the month)in sleek, well designed and built cars and the industry that produces them. If we take issue with a piece of automotive junk then we usually have our reasons.

    As for the policy of civility – if someone thinks that they’re being censored then TTAC has always had an open door policy for guest editorials where any well thought out argument or counter argument can be made. While that stands, RF should make no apologies for culling flamers who do little to further any debate.

  • avatar

    I read Jalopnik, Autoblog & so on for the pretty pictures & breaking news. I read TTAC for the editorials, comments & opinions.

  • avatar
    i6

    Well, since you opened the door…

    I don’t come to TTAC expecting to read the truth, I come to get a cleverly worded contrary argument to whatever the rest of the media coughs up.

    Purely speculating here, but I believe you do in fact love the auto industry. Your bitterness more likely emanates from the ‘media industry’ and your vendetta is against them. It is the very same energy, cleverness and individuality that seem to have made you an outcast there that will make TTAC a growing success.

    Just don’t kid yourself into believing that you have any kind of lock on ‘truth’, for doth a rose not smell as sweet? Your strength is in presenting good in-depth publicly accessible criticism of the auto industry. Run with that.

  • avatar
    Nicholas Weaver

    THe willingness to pull a contributed article, which was factually correct, without responding to further information or questions from the author, shows how much you value the “truth”.

  • avatar
    50merc

    Illegitimi non carborundum.

  • avatar
    BlisterInTheSun

    From wikipedia:

    Godwin’s law (also known as Godwin’s Rule of Nazi Analogies)is an adage formulated by Mike Godwin in 1990. The law states:

    “As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.”

    I find this to be true in my personal experience.

    This site seems to manage good editorial control and should prove to be well to the left on the probability curve which represents Godwin’s Law.

  • avatar
    confused1096

    Meh, you can’t please everyone all the time. Just as this site has its fans it will also have folks that don’t care for it.

    I love Jalopnik and am a frequent commentor there.

    Autoblog I don’t bother with anymore because the comment section was so infantile. I’d hate to see TTAC go down the same path.

    Perhaps we’re due for a “let’s hash things out” editorial once the Detroit Auto Show is over?

  • avatar
    quasimondo

    What’s there to hash out?

  • avatar
    ppellico

    Robert…

    I simply love cars.
    So much so that as a 6 year old boy, I was damned proud to wash and wax my big brother’s 1979 DeSoto!
    He said I could be co-owner!!!!
    My kids and I think your sight has the finest writing anywhere…
    We were in their college dorm the other day discussing the writing at TTAC, it is as good as you get from their favorite writers, like Terry Pratchett.
    As I tell them, all we want is the truth.
    It ain’t always pretty or nice, but its is all you should seek!
    Please NEVER, EVER stop being so damned funny…even when you dissagree with me.

  • avatar
    jconli1

    Lump objective discourse on cars right in there with politics and religion. (for many, its both of those things and thensome). It can be done with a small group of people in the right frame of mind, but in a more general setting, sensitive subjects will always result in strong feelings.

    I love TTAC’s 90 or so percent objectivity, and it keeps me coming back again and again. Of course facts and feelings aren’t mutually-exclusive, and its great to have a souce that understands as much and doesn’t apologize for it, but still sticks to the task at hand.

    I work in the motorcycle industry, and see the same dynamics when people of different brand-loyalties, or genre-loyalties interact. Some just have a simple love for the object (wheels and an engine), others get too wrapped up in its packaging to remember what they’re doing in the first place.

    Again, same could (or should) be said about politics and religion.

    That said, I’ve always found TTAC’s reviews to be even more full of really bad puns and analogies than the buff books I stopped reading in search of more objectivity.

    Ah well. As I’m sure your server logs well indicate (you know you didn’t need a “as long as there’s ONE” kind of post to know that), TTAC is well regarded and avidly read by all sorts of folks who just love the idea of wheels and an engine.

  • avatar
    Lumbergh21

    When I first started posting on this site, I made a flippant comment of encouragement to another poster that in reflection could have been considered flaming. I wasn’t censored only told where I could put that comment-so to speak. I’ve been on other sites that allow way to much latitude, sites that enforce even stricter rules, and sites where the editor had an obvious bias that allowed blatant bashing of any position right of Mao (how dare you question the wisdom of the Prius, don’t you just love hydrogen power, etc.) and let you know where people who didn’t toe the line would end up. I find that this site offers the most entertaining, even, and balanced coverage of automotive news without any obvious infusion/interference of political beliefs one way or the other.

    I have never seen any sign of uneven enforcement of your anti-flaming policies. The posts that I’ve read that were derogatory have been removed, and honest posts disagreeing with the article and/or other posters were left up. Keep up the good work.

  • avatar

    If I may make a supposition, I think you guys have misunderstood a subtlety in how “Truth” is manifested in TTAC. All the reviews and editorials are essentially opinions. Opinions are generally not “True” or “False”, no matter how extreme they may sound.

    The “Truth” is really about being honest about one’s thoughts on a certain topic or car. The Truth is that you are reading a TTAC writers’ opinion which is not swayed by any automaker. It is nigh impossible to remain independent of an automaker if he or she provides a vehicle to you. The mutual interest in preserving future exchanges (you give us free vehicles, we give you buttered up reviews) almost assures a biased review. This relationship why unpopular cars like the PT Cruiser win “X car of the year” awards.

    This relationship also explains why everyone gives GM a free pass on the Volt, like it’s a done deal. Meanwhile, TTAC is free to read between the lines because GM doesn’t give TTAC a red cent. This “honesty” is the “Truth” you are reading, though I will let RF and FW elaborate on this point.

    Regarding the perception (that is what it is) of a draconian editorial line that all commenters must fall into rank with or be banished to the nether regions of cyberspace (aka Edmunds.com), I think one need only point to the multitude of comments in the post entitled “In defense of American auto makers”.

    As for the comments section on Autoblog or Jalopnik, they tend to be a dog’s breakfast. To be ignored at all costs. In contrast, I think most of TTAC’s value is in its comments. Everything I write here, I write with the notion that any bullshit included will be called out immediately. When I see fanboy posts about Tesla Motors on other sites, it doesn’t encourage me to say the same thing about those sites.

  • avatar
    theflyersfan

    Coming from someone who has been to this site for years (I remember finding it during the LA Times vs General Motors lovefest and also finding great info about RF’s test of the Euro-spec Elise), I’ve seen the site change in many ways, but the way that stands out the most is that anyone with a love of cars and the industry, someone who likes to write and can back up facts has a voice to write an article and have the rest of us comment on it. That is in no way, shape and form any kind of censorship or flaming anyone.
    This site ranging from the top to the rest of us has no problems calling out what we like and dislike. As I recall, unless BMW became a new Detroit native, we have no problems calling out BMW about some of their huge mistakes with styling and quality over the past few years. The ad-driven auto mags might mention some of these BMW issues in maybe 10 or fewer words and then go back to gushing over their favorite prom date.
    I 100% believe that if those in the know that have any kind of pull at GM, Ford, and whatever Chrysler is named this week actually read some of the articles and comments on this site, they would see that our fact-based and viewing from the outside words might help their companies.
    I with they’d realize that car fanatics tell just as many people about the cars they loved in addition to being just like others with cars they disliked. Word of mouth among all of us is very powerful, especially to our friends, family, and co-workers who come to us for advice.
    Lastly, I greatly enjoy reading the comments on this site and will continue to do so. It’s painful trying to follow comments on other sites since it seems like many of them are filled with people who gave up their writing skills in the 2nd grade and whose idea of a reply is filled with four letter words and flaming. Personally, I don’t want to read their immature junk on this or any other site.

  • avatar
    L47_V8

    muchdrama :
    January 14th, 2008 at 9:22 pm

    I simply can’t deal with people who can’t accept that a brand they “root for” is actually crap.

    Sure, I like Chrysler. Do they build some awful cars? Oh, yes…

    At least we get some unvarnished info from this site.

    Hey!!

    Anyway, this site is extremely interesting because of several things. Yes, it does have a bit of a pessimistic bent, but it’s distributed equally amongst all of the products, services, and companies reviewed, and it attempts to nicely balance the ridiculously positive, advertising-driven spin vomited forth by almost every other automotive news source extant (rags, AutoBlog, etc.). Further, as has been stated, the main idea behind this site is to give reviews that aren’t biased by seven figure annual ad budgets or uber-swanky receptions left and right at the introduction of every new trim level on the Aveo. Third, the product reviews aren’t of completely loaded models that account for single-digit percentages of total sales in a given car line, and the vehicles are neither pre-production cars with “We’ll work that out later…” foibles or special press fleet vehicles with “just the right color” or a fine-toothed-comb inspection done before delivery for free use (can anyone say free rental car?) of a news source’s writers. Finally, and most importantly in my opinion, the information and news brought to us by this site (with a few exceptions – see the Detroit interviews) isn’t doled out pussy-foot style to a fawning editor by his or her “totally fave, forever” auto exec – it’s taken from multiple news wires using more cold, hard facts than rosy, bright-future opinions. It just works. If some people can’t stand the truth, and wish to continue lying to themselves in order to hold together crumbling egos, that’s their prerogative. There are masses of people out there who must do it, as muchdrama and I know all too well. I love this site – check it daily – and I hope it doesn’t change a bit. Let the naysayers neigh, and keep giving true fans exactly what we want – the truth.

  • avatar
    Redbarchetta

    It’s sad to see someone attacking Robert for the failings of the company they work for. He should be taking this up the exec that caused this and are still causing his pain rather than coming after the critics trying to help the situation more than anything. Unfortunately some people just don’t like being told the truth if it requires they make a real change. Like finding out your wife is cheating on you but denying it because you know you will have to confront the situation. Why do you think they execs have no interest in what we or for that matter the customers have to say, because “they know best, they can do no wrong, and we need to fall in line and do as they wish.”

    There have been a lot of great debates on this site and the only people I have seen censored are commenter’s attacking others on the site that couldn’t discuss their point in a civilized manor, and I don’t think we need people like that on here. It speaks wonders about this site when you can see dealers, line workers, suppliers, customers, service people, fleet managers and the editorial writes all discussing/debating on a single topic from both sides of the situation and have an intelligent and worthwhile conversation without ending up as a slug fest. The presidential candidates can’t even do that, and one of them will be running this country.

    I will admit to having a pretty vocal hatred towards GM(I’m still being burned by them). But it’s not against the people who work for the company(except for the inept management), it’s because of the pain they have cause to so many including their own workers. And they continue to inflict. It pains me to see something that could be so great destroyed because of several egos that don’t hold themselves accountable for anything. But I’m not going to lie about what I see plan as day to keep the peace. Don’t ask me if you look fat in a dress, I’ll tell you the truth. And that is what I love about this site, get to the truth above all else. The editorials and reviews are a single persons views, the truth happens in the discussion that follows, or it gets us as close to the truth as one can ever get.

    Don’t change a thing Robert, the site is a true testament to honest journalism that seems to be more and more rare these days.

  • avatar
    Qwerty

    I think the very strange definition of “flame” that is used on this site will always cause problems. The things that are termed flames on this site are so innocuous compared to everywhere else that any casual reader will either assume that the site owner is very thin skinned or that he has an ulterior motive.

    A site that claims to be about truth should not distort language for its own purposes. You should be honest enough to state that you don’t want any criticism of the site. Use the word “flame” for those situations where it is truly warranted.

    Whether a site that does want any criticism of itself can ever be really truthful is another question…

  • avatar
    Terry

    Hello!
    I really dont want to see “The Downfall of Detroit”, except for which maybe a Phoenix can rise from the ashes. Let them die already, and start over as a leaner, more responsive, and profitable set of companies this country can be proud of.
    I note that on other sites that when it comes to the traditional domestic car companies, if you arent a cheerleader, then you must surely be a basher. There is simply no middle ground to those that feel you are a traitor to this country if you buy other than GM, Ford, of ChryCo.
    I enjoy this site, it’s rules, the discussions, comments, news–all of it.
    Just my $.02

  • avatar
    KatiePuckrik

    I actually see what Mr RLJ676 is talking about. TTAC can be a little thin skinned sometimes and when one defends oneself (or advocate for the other side) a torrent of abuse comes flying your way!

    Case in point, Jeremy Clarkson and James May’s comments on Detroit. Now they said NOTHING more than what we TTAC’ers have said about Detroit (That occasionally Detroit can engineer a good car (CTS and CTS-V) but on the whole, they’ve lost the plot). However, because it’s an “outsider” who’s said this we put a “xenophobic” or “who are you to comment?” bent on it. Seem like Detroit can be criticised as long as it’s only TTAC’ers!

    But on the whole, TTAC is fair and I agree with the opinions on here.

  • avatar
    NickR

    TTAC is about as anti-Detroit as a respirologist is anti-patient for telling someone with emphysema to stop smoking.

  • avatar
    indi500fan

    @Qwerty:
    that’s why I quit trying to post here
    and that’s OK – one nice thing about the net is that it’s totally a la carte

  • avatar
    Jeff Waingrow

    Robert, we talked about just this subject a few days ago. In my mind, if there’s a problem in regard to flaming, it’s in a policy that is applied differently to some parties than to others. To wit, your editorials are sometimes flames by any reasonable definition, yet they pass through the editorial filter. Commentators seem frequently to be held to a more exacting standard. A strong editorial hand and point of view is clearly essential, but obvious inconsistences that are explained away with questionable logic (or worse) will inevitably haunt your dreams.

  • avatar

    The Chinese auto company is BYD (“Build your dreams”). The Corolla clone is the F3, described on their web site as having “360-degree absolute attraction, gathering international wisdom, displaying extraordinary charm, classic body design, handsome, vivid, automatic switching-on head lamps, showing outstanding vigor.”

    Then, there’s their F6, a Lexus wannabe that “follows world fashional design flend and form a style of its own.”

    The best one, though, is their F8 which looks like a Mercedes CLK that backed into a Sebring tin top. Their web site describes it thusly:

    The model has been forged by BYD Automobile Engineering Institute with great care. Its front grille, front combined lamps and engine cover have integrated different design elements. Rear lines of the car are concise and powerful. The entire design has taken the features of dual-door coupe and convertible car into full consideration by integrating motion, harmony and elegance.

    And on the inside,

    Front six-direction adjustable seat, waist support, adjustable safety headrests, cozy headspace reserved by lowering the gravity center of the front seat. In respect of the color of the interior decoration, F8 offers light color series and red-black series.

  • avatar
    AKM

    Robert, I like this place for its irreverence and the Truth. I also like it for its extremely interesting comments, be they sarcastic, witty, argumentative, or long discussions. Never found that anywhere else.
    I’ve also always had the feeling that disagreeing with article authors was completely OK as long as it was done in a respectable fashion.

    has the internet brought us so low that attacks (as opposed to criticisms) is considered “normal” on the web and should attract no retribution? I certainly hope not, and this site stands for its respect of its readership’s intelligence.

  • avatar
    Strippo

    I actually see what Mr RLJ676 is talking about. TTAC can be a little thin skinned sometimes and when one defends oneself (or advocate for the other side) a torrent of abuse comes flying your way!

    You’re failing to distinguish between insiders and outsiders. Here, a torrent of civil disagreement is all that’s permitted. Any “abuse” of anyone here will be deleted. And if Jezza and Captain Slow decide to join this club then I guess we’ll have to be civil to them, too. In the meantime, they’re public figures and strangers to the site who can have their ancestries questioned at will (within reason). That’s the way I understand the policy, anyway.

  • avatar
    Qwerty

    “360-degree absolute attraction, gathering international wisdom, displaying extraordinary charm, classic body design, handsome, vivid, automatic switching-on head lamps, showing outstanding vigor.”

    This sounds like someone I’d like to marry. A nice adornement at a party and great in the sack.

  • avatar
    timoted

    A reputation is built largely on observations and perceptions by others. It certainly doesn’t help the perception when every other article is titled “(Insert American Mfg Here) Death Watch”. In addition there never seems to be a shortage of commentors to bash American cars at the whim. Whether it is because they have been traumatized with an American car in the past or are just jumping on the bandwagon all of these comments are viewed by many in the industry (Including those who choose not to comment).

    Having owned,driven, wrenched on and repaired nearly every major mfg. of car out there foreign and domestic, I can speak from those experiences that there are good American cars and bad just as there are good and bad foreign cars. Yes, we’ve all had our tramatic experiences with American cars but, the truth is that no one reading or commenting on this site wants to see an American car mfg. go under. It is in no one’s best interest as the result would transpire be a huge financial impact on the American economy. (Remember why the Govt. bailed out Chrysler in the 80’s).

    It would seem that if there are those who are worried about this site’s reputation then they should take steps to change it. On the other hand if there is no concern, continue down the path that you’ve always known.

  • avatar
    Orian

    I really don’t think the commenter has posted much here – I’ve disagreed and never been banned or had my posts deleted – that’s the beauty of this site.

    I’d say close to 95% of the people that come here will debate intelligently and without flaming others.

    Correct me if I’m wrong guys! =)

  • avatar

    Did this get mentioned on TTAC?

    THE world’s biggest car maker, General Motors, believes the global oil supply has peaked and a switch to electric cars is inevitable.

    In a stunning announcement at the opening of the Detroit Motor Show yesterday, GM’s chairman and chief executive officer, Rick Wagoner, said ethanol was an important interim solution to the demand for oil, until battery technology gave electric cars the range of petrol-powered cars.

    http://tinyurl.com/2lhkbs
    from
    http://www.theage.com.au
    via Energy Bulletin

  • avatar
    lewissalem

    I disagree with you.
    I disagree with you.
    I disagree with you.
    I disagree with you.
    I disagree with you.

    Well… still here… not banned.

  • avatar
    ppellico

    I must say again that this discussion about flaming is running on.
    The very greatness of TTAC is its writing.
    I don’t care if they totally dissagree with me, they are such great writers I need not carry books anymore.
    They alone prove to the world that automobile writers can be entertaining.
    TTAC makes me feel like I am special because I get them.TTAC has raised auto writing to a new and exciting level.
    The others must read and envy.
    Just keep up the writing!
    Paul

  • avatar

    Thanks Frank! I was definitely referring to the F3 and F8 from BYD. You see so many frickin cars at these shows, but those were the worst by a country mile.

    Both Geely and Changfeng do a better job with the unique sheetmetal.

  • avatar
    Queensmet

    Here we go again, wasting time trying to defend an editorial policy. STOP ALREADY

  • avatar

    Companies whining about the “anti-domestic” slant of the media or the public have only themselves to blame. Which of the following story titles will get your click?

    “BMW Reveals the 2009 ________”
    “Honda Reveals the 2009 ________”
    “Dodge Reveals the 2009 ________”
    “Buick Reveals the 2009 ________”

    The average car nut is more interested in the foreign offerings. If you’d asked about those brands in the 50’s through the early 80’s then people would answer differently. I’m excited about the resurgence of Cadillac and Saturn. I actually bought a Jeep a few years ago. I own a Mazda (Ford product). But do I feel good about the “American” car companies and give them any preference… no way. I’ll buy the right vehicle for my needs and to hell with blind patriotism. I’ll turn to TTAC and many other sources for good information about my purchases. I’m VERY glad that TTAC doesn’t seem to be swayed by the media or by who gives them the sweetest test car. There are precious few people willing to endure the sacrifices of telling the truth (as they see it). Keep the faith!

  • avatar
    bill h.

    Well, first of all ATAC (since no one has a lock on THE truth, I’ll use the indefinite article) has, like any other site that’s moderated, a policy that you can sign on to or not when you register. Deal with it, or don’t bother.

    And like other review sites, whether it’s tangible products like cars, or of artistic endeavors such as musical events (or cars), it takes awhile to figure out which reviewers who write for it have personal credibility with us readers. Frankly, there are reviewers (and commenters!) here that would push me to the absolute opposite of their opinions because I think they are not credible. But that’s my bias against theirs, and as an input it’s just as valuable as such.

    Just wish that sometimes the writers would lay off the “cute” similes–reminds me too much of Car and Driver in the 1980s (when I last read that mag).

  • avatar
    confused1096

    What’s there to hash out?

    I’m reading some discontent in this comments section, most reviews someone pipes up about the star rating system, etc… If it makes people feel better to debate something that bugs ’em, why not.

    really dont want to see “The Downfall of Detroit”, except for which maybe a Phoenix can rise from the ashes.
    No, no, no not another Pontiac Pheonix, not that!

  • avatar
    dolo54

    I noticed a few people on Jalopnik don’t like this site. Not sure why, as their reasons don’t seem to apply. Same for this guy, as I’m fairly sure most of the posters here have disagreed with you guys at least a few times… I know I have, but the couple times I had a post deleted they weren’t in disagreement to the article and I thought the choice to delete was appropriate.

    As for “The Truth”, well everyone should know that truth is subjective… here as much as anywhere. I, for one, do not think El Camino was the greatest vehicle ever invented, but far be it from me to argue that truth with the Jalopnikers.

  • avatar

    As a frequent reader (but very infrequent poster) I did want to weigh in on this issue. The TTAC comment posting policy is the reason why I read the comments on this site. As noted here, the discussions on many online sites devolve quickly into personal attacks and 4th-grade-boy-level nastiness.

    I consider the comments here to be an integral part of the process. The articles are often opionion pieces, so the comments provide different views on issue at hand. TTAC remains the only blog where I take the time to read through the comments. Intelligent folks here, working towards presenting the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

  • avatar

    I like this crowd. I’ve read waaaaaaaaay too many comments here, and I’ve seen plenty of dissenting opinions. It keeps this site spicy, and keeps me on its pages beyond the articles.

    When base elements of intelligent discourse aren’t fostered in youth, you can’t expect them to reason that someone who thinks differently from themselves can be their greatest asset. I sure as shit abhor the lack of patience, logic, and follow through of the internet generation, and without guidance, well, read the comments at ESPN, Autoblog, or any of the major news websites. It’s sad.

  • avatar
    philbailey

    One editorailiser called Jeremy Clarkson some very nasty names in an article and I objected. I accused TTAC of being very uncivil indeed and jealous of success to boot. I got a “last warning”. Obviously, what’s sauce for the goose is not sauce for the gander. So some of the fascism accusation actually has some credence. And don’t bother sending me an e-mail RF, this is my last comment anyway. Although, maybe not my last visit.

  • avatar

    philbailey : One editorailiser called Jeremy Clarkson some very nasty names in an article and I objected. I accused TTAC of being very uncivil indeed and jealous of success to boot. I got a “last warning”. No question: TTAC’s anti-flaming policy is logically inconsistent. Editorialists, bloggers and commentators can flame people and corporate entities who do NOT post on the site, but not the site itself, its authors or fellow commentators. Further, I allow commentators to compliment writers but not to diss them. (As a prior poster remarked, if Mr. Clarkson posted on this site, we would have to treat him as “one of us.”) Although the site’s anti-flaming policy is illogical, it IS effective. Time-tested, in fact. The quality of commentary hereabouts speaks for itself. And I urge you to note that I am ready, willing and able to engage anyone in a debate about TTAC’s editorial stance or style off-line, at [email protected] (the addy is off-line until tomorrow for technical reasons). Whenever I delete a comment, I ALWAYS email the poster and invite a discussion. Or an editorial submission. It’s weird: a website that proudly trumpets itself as “no holds barred” that bars holds. But there it is. And that’s the way it’s going to stay.

  • avatar
    Dinu

    Like many have said, the reason TTAC is so great is b/c of the civil discussion we can engage in on this site. Nothing turns me off more from a topic I dearly love (cars, the industry, and the people who drive them) than commentary and behaviour fit for a grade 4 lunchroom. And I know too well what gets said in a grade 4 lunchroom – I’m a teacher after all.

    I’m one of the many visitors to this site that rarely posts, but reads most news articles, ALL reviews and editorials, including the comments. The quality of debate is what keeps me coming back daily, and what will ultimately be the demise of the F5 key on my computer :)

    Thank you all for a fantastic automotive site and resource!

    Dinu

    PS: It seems that only today’s episode can be found on iTunes. Would it be possible to keep Podcasts from the past few days (last 5 Podcasts perhaps?) uploaded? Makes it easier to sync the iPod so I can listen to it :)

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