By on August 17, 2021

The Consumer Technology Association has announced that it will require all CES (formerly the Consumer Electronics Show) attendees to be vaccinated. Organizers have stated that everyone planning on going to the trade event will be required to “provide proof of COVID-19 vaccination” if they’ve any hope of being granted entry.

“Based on today’s science, we understand vaccines offer us the best hope for stopping the spread of COVID-19,” Gary Shapiro, president and CEO of CTA, explained. “We all play a part in ending the pandemic through encouraging vaccinations and implementing the right safety protocols. We are taking on our responsibility by requiring proof of vaccination to attend CES 2022 in Las Vegas.”

While the group said that it was also considering allowing people to provide proof of a positive antibody test as an alternative to vaccination, nothing has yet been decided on that front. For now, vaccination passports will be the only way to be granted entry.

“We know our decision to require vaccines — and potentially positive antibody tests — may not be popular for some, but for many others it will allow them to know they can experience CES once again — and get back to business as usual,” Shapiro stated.

“For those who cannot attend CES in person, we offer the CES experience through our digital platform and hope to welcome you back to Las Vegas in 2023. Regardless of how you choose to participate in CES 2022, I hope you find inspiration, make new connections, build your business and step into the rest of the year with a renewed sense of hope for how tech continues to improve all our lives.”

Organizers said they would be following state and local guidelines, as well as the recommendations issued by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. But the CDC issued indoor masking recommendations (including vaccinated individuals) the CES doesn’t appear to be requiring at all. The public health agency likewise confirmed that vaccinations (which it still supports) don’t actually prevent someone from spreading the virus (particularly Delta), instead stating that it lessened symptoms for those exposed.

These restrictions feel kind of useless considering how easily vaccination cards can be faked. You literally only need a printer capable of feeding 100 card stock. Though affixing any government insignias to that piece of paper would technically be a crime and not something I would recommend, even if the likelihood of your being caught is effectively zero.

As someone who supports informed consent and opposes a papers-please society, I would probably just recommend snubbing CES 2022 entirely. All of this has become so overbearing and inconsistent that it no longer appears to be helping to get things done. The United States already has one of the highest vaccination rates (51.4 percent) of any large nation and it’s unclear what more can realistically be accomplished.

Of course, if you’re keen to show medical documents each time you enter a public building, CES seems happy to accommodate. The event is scheduled to commence on January 5th, 2020, and play host to over 1,000 companies in Las Vegas. Primarily focused on tech, there is typically a large automotive presence at CES featuring the latest in automation, electrification, and vehicular connectivity. General Motors CEO Mary Barra will also be on hand to deliver a keynote speech pertaining to all of the above.

“Mary Barra disrupted an industry at an inflection point by showing the potential of an all-electric future. GM stock hit an all-time high following the [last] show,” said Shapiro. “We are thrilled for her return at CES 2022 and look forward to hearing the progress GM has made towards an all-electric future and its vision for how this technology will benefit our planet.”

Details and updates will be provided via  CES.tech and it’s strongly encouraged that you check back frequently if you’re planning to attend, as the organizers are likely to change COVID protocols several times and may just end up canceling the event. Plenty can change in five months.

[Image: RYO Alexandre/Shutterstock]

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118 Comments on “CES Organizers Say Attendees Must Be Vaccinated...”


  • avatar
    28-Cars-Later

    Lawsuit in 3, 2, 1…

    • 0 avatar
      Lou_BC

      It does appear that venues held on private property can make these sort of demands. Private businesses have done the same with employees so I doubt litigation will be of much use.

      • 0 avatar
        28-Cars-Later

        I’m going to put on a public event, but I will only let card carrying [Dems or Repubs pick one] in… how fast is an injunction put in place?

        • 0 avatar
          Lou_BC

          “I’m going to put on a public event, but I will only let card carrying [Dems or Repubs pick one] in”

          I believe those are called conventions.

          ;)

          • 0 avatar
            28-Cars-Later

            Actually, that’s an interesting point. In order to get tickets to a political convention do I have to “show my papers” as it were?

          • 0 avatar
            96red

            Discrimination based on race is illegal and possibly unconstitutional.

        • 0 avatar
          bunkie

          The CES is a trade-only show. They can set whatever restrictions they like.

          • 0 avatar
            zerofoo

            Trade-only shows can not violate anti-discrimination laws. They can not set “whatever restrictions they like”.

            Businesses in Florida are prohibited from denying access to unvaccinated people. I guess Nevada does not have similar protections for unvaccinated people.

            Not everyone is able to be vaccinated.

          • 0 avatar
            FreedMike

            “Not everyone is able to be vaccinated.”

            By this logic: not everyone can be vaccinated against smallpox, so let’s let someone who hasn’t been go socialize with a bunch of other folks who haven’t during a smallpox outbreak.

            (DERRRRRRPPPPP)

          • 0 avatar
            jkross22

            Can someone explain how a non-vaccinated, prior Covid infectioned person’s immunity differs from a vaccine immunity?

            Because this is a real issue considering millions have been exposed to this.

            I thought we were following the science, yet we’ve now stopped asking questions about it. Even worse, you’re a pariah for even asking questions.

            Just for a minute, can we stop lighting our hair on fire and actually explore these problems?

        • 0 avatar
          96red

          Yeah. That happens all the time in America. What country are you from?

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            @jkross22 – “Can someone explain how a non-vaccinated, prior Covid infectioned person’s immunity differs from a vaccine immunity?”

            “Now, a new NIH-supported study shows that the answer to this question will vary based on how an individual’s antibodies against SARS-CoV-2 were generated: over the course of a naturally acquired infection or from a COVID-19 vaccine. The new evidence shows that protective antibodies generated in response to an mRNA vaccine will target a broader range of SARS-CoV-2 variants carrying “single letter” changes in a key portion of their spike protein compared to antibodies acquired from an infection.

            These results add to evidence that people with acquired immunity may have differing levels of protection to emerging SARS-CoV-2 variants. More importantly, the data provide further documentation that those who’ve had and recovered from a COVID-19 infection still stand to benefit from getting vaccinated.”

            https://directorsblog.nih.gov/2021/06/22/how-immunity-generated-from-covid-19-vaccines-differs-from-an-infection/

            One should get longer lasting immunity from a vaccine and broader coverage against variants. It appears that a vaccine after “natural” immunity from infection boosts one’s immunity further. People can contract COVID-19 more than once.

          • 0 avatar
            millmech

            Mr FreedMike – I remember when Smallpox vaccination scar necessary for school, other Government functions, some others.
            YES – This Has Already Happened Here.

        • 0 avatar
          96red

          @28 Cars You’re very confused. Who could get an an injunction and on what basis? And what do you mean by “public event”? Do you even know what that means when discussing the applicability of Consitutional laws and safeguards?

          If you want to stage a convention and want to invite only Republicans, or Masons, or left-handed people, or Beetles fans or Pepsi lovers – that is your right. This is America.

        • 0 avatar
          96red

          @28 Cars

          “I’m going to put on a public event, but I will only let card carrying [Dems or Repubs pick one] in…”

          Yeah. That happens all the time in America. What country are you from?

      • 0 avatar
        Daniel J

        Discrimination based on race is bad.
        Discrimination based on health status is good.

        Lol.

        • 0 avatar
          28-Cars-Later

          Well, yes in loony logic but that’s not what will be argued. What will be argued is the “vaccine” treatement is a choice not something like race, color, or sex which is not something a person can choose to be. Since political affilation is a choice, it will be interesting to see how another “choice” could be discriminated against.

          • 0 avatar
            ollicat

            Try discriminating against a man in a dress and tie will see how you can’t discriminate against what someone chooses to do.

          • 0 avatar
            28-Cars-Later

            @ollicat

            The other side would argue its not a choice, and that men are women too – and they will win.

          • 0 avatar
            zerofoo

            In some instances being unvaccinated is not a choice.

            There are religious and medical reasons for some to remain unvaccinated.

      • 0 avatar
        zerofoo

        The Las Vegas Convention center is a public facility administered by the Las Vegas Convention and Visitors Authority – a government agency.

        https://www.lvcva.com

        The LVCC is not private property. It was bought and paid for by the taxpayers of Nevada.

    • 0 avatar
      Luke42

      @28-cars-later:
      “Lawsuit in 3, 2, 1…”

      The legal precedents for this stuff were all settled more than a century ago here in United States.

      For instance, here’s a Supreme Court decision from 1905, which still stands: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts

      The CES organizers were likely smart enough to ask a lawyer before they made this decision. The law about this has been settled for more than a century.

      This isn’t our first pandemic, and it won’t be our last pandemic.

      • 0 avatar
        zerofoo

        The government does have the authority to mandate vaccines. That much is clear from case law.

        What is not clear is whether or not the government can absolve private companies of legal liability for making deadly or dangerous products.

        Our company has discussed this with our legal advisors. They all share the same opinion. Government has given legal immunity to vaccine manufacturers but has not given legal immunity to any one else. Our attorneys advised us against requiring ANY medical treatments as a requirement for work as we could be sued for any damages caused by those treatments.

        Government can not deprive you of due process by giving immunity to those that harm you. That would be a violation of your 5th amendment rights.

        • 0 avatar
          FreedMike

          The Fifth Amendment applies to criminal cases and government confiscating private property, not civil cases.

          I’m no attorney, but I’d say that the only way a company would be held liable for “vaccines gone wrong” would be if it knew the vaccines were dangerous and forced employees to have them anyway. How would a plaintiff prove that? Answer: you can’t.

          Sorry, this smells like a BS excuse.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            Obfuscation typically works on people because they won’t take the time or make the effort to validate.

            Looks like smart slavuto has a new name

          • 0 avatar
            zerofoo

            The 5th amendment does absolutely apply to civil cases:

            https://www.abellawfirm.com/attorney-articles/invoking-the-fifth-amendment-in-civil-cases/

            Civil law doesn’t exist outside the bounds of the constitution. Due process is guaranteed in both criminal and civil proceedings.

            I’m not a lawyer, but our lawyers are.

          • 0 avatar
            FreedMike

            OK, point taken.

            So…my company forces me to take a vaccine to show up to work, and the vaccine makes me sick. I sue the company. I’m going to have to prove the company knew full well the vaccine was harmful, and made me take it anyway.

            I’m going to lose.

            Again…sounds like a BS excuse.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            @FreedMike – agreed. Lame excuse. Side effects are known with any medication. I required various up to date vaccinations prior to starting employment as a paramedic and even in my current career. You can’t litigate an employer mandated medication due to known side effects or even rare or potentially unknown side effects. You have a simple choice: take the medication or quit and seek employment elsewhere.

            if you are afraid of mRNA technology then get a vaccine using older technology. They exist.

        • 0 avatar
          Luke42

          @zerofoo:
          “What is not clear is whether or not the government can absolve private companies of legal liability for making deadly or dangerous products.”

          The issue of vaccine liability was sorted out decades ago. Congress decided how to resolve this in 1986:
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Vaccine_Injury_Compensation_Program

          I’m old enough that I remember when the anti-vaxxers were liberals. Now the anti-vaxxers are conservatives.

          Look at the numbers in the chart. The number of claims paid out is very small, because vaccines do vastly more good than harm. It’s nnozero, but your chances are millions of times better with the vaccine than they are with the actual disease. Only the flakiest among us can look at those numbers and decide against the vaccine.

          The times and which political party caters to the flakes have both changed. However, the major scientific and legal facts about vaccines were settled a century ago, and the minor points were settled decades ago.

          Get the vaccine. Don’t be a flake.

          • 0 avatar
            Art Vandelay

            So @Luke, here is the thing. I got the initial vaccine. I looked at the potential side efects and unknowns versus the potential outcome of catching the virus and made an informed decision even though the testing was incomplete and in my mind it is doubtful the initial tests on the emergency authorization included people that have been vaccinated out the wazoo for years (Anthrax and all of the other vaccinations and meds I was given for 20 years). The benefits outweighed the risks.

            Now enter the booster. The data says I am unlikely to get it and if I do a serious case is still not especially likely. As the risk is lower, I am not sure I want to roll the dice. There is a lot to think about and digesting data and making an informed decision isn’t being a flake.

        • 0 avatar
          Arthur Dailey

          @Zerofoo has obviously not completed research into this. An example being the province of Ontario. “On October 20, 2021 the Ontario government introduced Bill 218, the Supporting Ontario’s Recovery Act. Bill 218 provides liability protection to individuals, businesses and other organizations that make an honest effort to follow public health guidelines against COVID-19 exposure-related lawsuits.”

        • 0 avatar
          96red

          The Government absolutely can and does immunize private corporations from legal liability for making deadly or dangerous products. That’s why you generally can’t sue the manufacturers of many vaccines, including the flu vaccine. They have absolute immunity. There is a separate vaccine court system set up in which the injured can seek compensation, but the compensation, if any, is paid by the US, not by the pharmacuetical companies…

    • 0 avatar
      96red

      Lol! Lawsuits over what? On what basis?

    • 0 avatar
      96red

      @28 Cars

      Lawsuit?!? What the hell are you talking about? Lawsuit on what basis? Can you tell us what law(s) you think are being broken?

  • avatar
    slavuta

    Gary Shapiro is another “virology doctor”. Probably best after CNN “analyst” Van Jones

  • avatar
    ollicat

    All this for a virus you can still get and spread in spite of being vaccinated.

    • 0 avatar
      Number6

      Know anybody that died from polio lately? Oh, wait…..

      • 0 avatar
        28-Cars-Later

        Yeah but I think that one actually worked.

        • 0 avatar
          Lou_BC

          Polio wasn’t known to mutate much therefore easier to irradiate with a vaccine. They also used a “live attenuated” vaccine which in many patients gave them polio.

          • 0 avatar
            28-Cars-Later

            “They also used a “live attenuated” vaccine which in many patients gave them polio.”

            1950 MEDICINE: Oops, our bad.

            But to their credit, they eventually came up with one which worked very well and helped eradicate. That may still happen here given time, so why the politics and lunacy around all this today?

        • 0 avatar
          slavuta

          Not before it killed, injured many, many…

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            I covered that without the fearmongering.

          • 0 avatar
            Luke42

            “Not before it killed, injured many, many…”

            …And protected a thousand times more people from life in an iron lung.

            The Americans with Disabilities Act was pushed through by a bunch of activists, including this polio survivor:
            https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ed_Roberts_(activist)

            In storytelling form:
            https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/curb-cuts/

            He missed out on the polio vaccine by two years.

            If you get annoyed with laws like the ADA, then it’s in your interest to make sure people aren’t unnecessarily handicapped, because handicapped people sometimes grow up to be very effective activists. One of the ways of doing that is be ensuring people are vaccinated against the plague de jour.

      • 0 avatar
        zerofoo

        I don’t personally know anyone that died of polio – thank goodness. However some did die from a defective polio vaccine:

        https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1383764/

        Humans are fallible beings. Humans make mistakes – sometimes big ones. Bypassing regulatory safety procedures is a bad idea and one to be avoided.

        Will something really bad come of these new mRNA vaccines? I hope not. But right now we don’t know what the safety profile of these things are 5 and 10 years out.

        Phase 3 trials are in place for very good reasons.

        • 0 avatar
          Lou_BC

          mRNA vaccines aren’t all that new.

          • 0 avatar
            zerofoo

            They are for human use. The COVID-19 mRNA vaccines are the first ever used in humans.

            https://www.newbernsj.com/story/news/2020/12/11/covid-vaccine-first-nrna-based-what-does-mean/3856731001/

            Maybe your definition of “new” differs from mine.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            @zerofool – nice try. Of course they are new for COVID-19 since SARS-CoV-2 is new.

            mRNA technology is not new.

            https://www.nature.com/articles/nrd.2017.243

            Let’s play dueling links.

            You have a rheumatologist telling a newspaper that mRNA vaccines are bad.

            Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

            Seriously?

            ROTFLMFAO

          • 0 avatar
            zerofoo

            What prior vaccines have been developed for use in humans that use mRNA?

          • 0 avatar
            zerofoo

            Sure there have been research vaccines that led to this point – Influenza and Zika – but none were approved and deployed for human use.

            Surely The NY Times wouldn’t lie to us:

            https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/14/health/cornavirus-vaccine-moderna.html

            I stand by my premise. This is the first mRNA vaccine for use in humans.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            @Zerofool –

            I did not say it was the first time as a vaccine in humans. I said that the technology is not new. If you are afraid of mRNA technology there are several other vaccines available that do not use it.

            “Conclusions
            Within the past 2 decades, major achievements in the field of mRNA vaccines have created a safe and attractive treatment option for a broad range of diseases, including cancer.”

            https://www.cancernetwork.com/view/messenger-rna-vaccines-beckoning-of-a-new-era-in-cancer-immunotherapy

            A review of mRNA vaccine technology by ONCOLOGY® editorial board member Mehmet Sitki Copur, MD, FACP, explains the basis for progress in this field and reviews a number of new trials using this technology.

          • 0 avatar
            FreedMike

            “This is the first mRNA vaccine for use in humans.”

            …and what does that mean? It means it’s a new treatment. At some point, every treatable disease had a new treatment developed for it. My guess is that you’ve had a few of these “new” treatments yourself.

            What point are you trying to make?

        • 0 avatar
          Arthur Dailey

          I do know some who contracted polio. It was a much feared disease. And one whose side effects can return decades after first becoming ill.

    • 0 avatar
      SoCalMikester

      and you wont die! however, your delta-covered microbiome could potentially KILL people that are immunosuppressed, which is a large population that would probably like to live.

      you go do you tho. Merkin Freedumbs and all that.

  • avatar
    Art Vandelay

    As we move into 2020 version 2.0 (Just as soon as we get done with Saigon 1975 version 2.0), I just want to express my gratitude that we have such a master and trustworthy planner at the helm of our proud nation for all of this. From the Southern Border to Covid to Kabul…it is clear that our leaders have a firm grasp of whatever the worst case scenario is and are ready to act decisively and we can rest easy knowing that we are led by the best and the brightest…A guy that when he says “you need a booster shot” you can take the knowledge that it is safe and necessary to the bank because clearly, he has had his finger on the pulse of all of these events and calmly seen us through each crisis to the best outcome that could have happened.

    I’m sure that Covid plan that our President spoke of during the 2 debates where nothing but Covid was discussed because there was nothing else worthy of discussing (clearly a wise call) will at any time now begin to flatten the curve again and it is ridiculous to think that such an enlightened group of leaders would allow such a masterful plan to be derailed by idiots.

    And as I watched Kabul fall and my President said nothing for 72 hours to comfort those stuck at the airport I was reminded just how great it was that he wasn’t always tweeting.

    God
    Bless
    America

    • 0 avatar
      slavuta

      Some actually stuck in the landing gear of C17. At least, their corpses arrived to the destination.

      • 0 avatar
        Art Vandelay

        It is a disgrace Slavuta. Note the date…we agree on something.

        • 0 avatar
          Lie2me

          Meanwhile, back in Florida, Texas and even ALABAMA hundreds of Americans are dying every day of Covid with leaders doing absolutely nothing to help, but let’s spend another 20 years in Afghanistan, because optics

          Yeah, that makes sense

          • 0 avatar
            FreedMike

            One of the few things Trump did that sense was deciding to get out of there. Awful as it is to say, leaving was going to be a disaster no matter when we did it. I don’t think we ever had any business trying to nation-build there – Afgnanistan isn’t circa-1945 West Germany or Japan.

          • 0 avatar
            zerofoo

            We kill half a million Americans every year with tobacco.

            We kill 50,000 a year with opioids – many are prescriptions.

            Medical errors kill about 250,000 people a year in the US.

            These are PREVENTABLE causes of death – yet no one seems to make a stink about any of these.

            Bacteria and viruses have killed since the dawn of time and will continue to do so. You can’t run from them – they, as you, are a part of life on earth.

            The US death rate is about 250,000 people a month of “normal” causes. The COVID death count, while tragic, isn’t worthy of the panic caused by the media. It also seems that more than 90% of the COVID deaths would have happened anyway for other reasons.

          • 0 avatar
            FreedMike

            “Bacteria and viruses have killed since the dawn of time and will continue to do so. You can’t run from them – they, as you, are a part of life on earth.”

            This logic applied to syphilis:
            “Syphilis has killed since the dawn of time and will continue to do so. You can’t run from it – it, as you, is a part of life on earth. Therefore, f*ck wearing a condom. Too bad your partner might get it, though…but, hey, you can’t make an omelet without breaking a few eggs.”

            Makes absolute sense, right?

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            @zerofool

            “These are PREVENTABLE causes of death – yet no one seems to make a stink about any of these.”

            That’s quite the strawman argument.

            Healthcare systems go to great lengths to minimize errors.

            Tobacco is legal but how do you stop smoking? Look at the “sh!tshow” over mask mandates. Prohibition failed miserably with alcohol.

            People die, that’s the long term outcome of birth.

            We’ve seen death on a large scale with COVID-19 WITH measures in place. The death rate would be horrific is no measures were put in place.

            Your arguments make no sense.

          • 0 avatar
            FreedMike

            @Lou:

            I think you’re missing the thrust of his argument – if you’ve been living in a sensory deprivation tank on Venus, you won’t have heard much about the “stink” over smoking, drug addiction or medical incompetence. I mean, you and I have heard all about this stuff over the last 30-40 years, but then again, we’re not living in a sensory deprivation tank on Venus. Clearly we have to cut him some slack.

            I have to give it up to him for being able to access the Internet while on Venus, though. I had no idea the tech existed.

          • 0 avatar
            Daniel J

            Deaths aren’t following hospitizations like they were back in December and January. Let’s not be overly dramatic.

          • 0 avatar
            SoCalMikester

            a lot of those dying people knew they didnt really have to

          • 0 avatar
            Art Vandelay

            If we spend 60 more there, we’ll equal our time in Europe. Being somewhere and being at war somewhere are 2 different things. We haven’t had a causality in Afghanistan in a year and a half. The cost seems like a bargain frankly for the PR alone given how China is now spinning it.

            When are we leaving Europe. It’s been 80 years. Time for them to step up and protect themselves. And Central and South American people coming to the border? Will we be applying the Biden Afghanistan doctrine of “time to step up and make your home a better place”?

            And yeah, I heard in the 2 debates where we talked about Covid and nothing else that we had a plan. I don’t need Maury Povich to determine that that was a lie.
            Apparently the plan was to hope it was going to go well. You don’t like the Covid response? Take it up with yaboi in the Whitehouse who is either too much of a coward or lacks the mental facilities to field a single question over 2 press conferences.

            WHAT A DISGRACE!

          • 0 avatar
            Art Vandelay

            @FreedMike, that’s a fncking cop out. The events and chaos over the weekend weren’t enevitable but we’re the result of willful negligence and a lack of any planning. That’s on Yaboi. Maybe we shouldn’t have abandoned that easily defendable 2 runway airbase at Bagram in the dead of night until we got everyone out.

            The term in the military is “relief for cause”. It needs to be rampant on Officer Evaluation Reports at the Pentagon and in Lloyd Austin’s resignation. Then we can move on to the Whitehouse. We spent 4 years discussing Trump’s “cognitive state” and the 25tj amendment. If Yaboi doesn’t get out there and take an effing question it is time to resume that discussion. He’s a coward, or he can’t do it. Either one is a real problem.

            Take your weak a$$ “But Trump” BS somewhere else. He’s been held accountable by the voters. It’s Yabois turn now

          • 0 avatar
            Art Vandelay

            By the way @Lie2Me, I see this is going to be the spin. It was this or stay another 20 years. As if a year to plan and execute an orderly evacuation was never an option.

            You speak of optics. The optics of “This will not be Saigon”. followed a week later by Saigon and people falling out of airplanes are challenging optics.

            People are dying by in large who made a willful choice to not get vaccinated. Frankly if you get to not care about people that fought with us for 20 years, why should I care about the fate of people that made a willful choice.

            And did the administration not plan for resistance to the vaccine? One might say what happened is in fact a worse case scenario. There was no plan for it. I’m seeing a pattern here.

            You go ahead and defend Yaboi though.

    • 0 avatar
      golden2husky

      Joe screwed this one up pretty badly…a collapse of the “government” was all but certain once we left. You would think the military would have been prepared for the worst case scenario…not the best case…

      • 0 avatar
        ttacgreg

        I think we’re starting to stray a little bit off topic here.

        • 0 avatar
          Lie2me

          When is politics ever off topic here?

          • 0 avatar
            zerofoo

            I remember when this used to be a car site…

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            “I think we’re starting to stray a little bit off topic here.”

            “When is politics ever off topic here?”

            Politics generate clicks. Vaccine mandates, mask mandates, vaccine passports are political in the USA for reasons beyond the comprehension of anyone applying critical thinking.

        • 0 avatar
          Art Vandelay

          I’m sorry, we will resume our normal debates aboutt masks and vaccines. Scroll past or ban me dude, I dont care which.

        • 0 avatar
          jkross22

          I enjoy verbally burning all politicians in effigee, but what does Afghanistan have to do with CES rules about who they allow to attend?

          • 0 avatar
            Art Vandelay

            Because we wouldn’t be debating masks at the CES if our new stable genius could plan he way out of a wet paper bag. The Covid surge, the border and now this illustrate that he is no better than the last guy and yet again, failed.to account for the worst possible scenario (in this case, people would not get the vaccine).

            At least under Trump, we shut it down. Now? Wear a mask. That’s it.

            WHAT A DISGRACE!

      • 0 avatar
        Lou_BC

        I believe that US leaders made the false assumption that the Afghani army would put up a fight. One has to remember that it’s been 20 odd years of fook-ups in Afghanistan to get to this point. The previous commander-in-chief had been negotiating with the Taliban.

        A pundit had made the astute observation that Afghanistan is where empires go to die. The USA, Russia, British, Persian, Greek, Roman, Mongols, Sikhs and several more.

        It is unfathomable that any country would send their troops to bleed and die over that pile of rocks. Hubris kills.

        • 0 avatar
          Art Vandelay

          So @Lou when did they come to this determination? Was Lloyd Austin warning Obama about this during his time as CENTCOM Commander while decisions to escalate were being made? Or was he being a good yes man so as not to rock the boat that was his precious career?

          Getting to this point will cloud the legacies of many Presidents. But the events of this weekend are on one and one alone. Or maybe the buck stops somewhere over there.

        • 0 avatar
          28-Cars-Later

          I agree with these points, although empires comparison is not recent and has been made since 2001/02. I think it boils down to this:

          DC Junta/Pentagon/NSC/Alphabet Agencies as a group are so incredibly inept to the point where the US right now is in genuine danger of a surprise attack.

          OR

          Elements of the DC Junta/Pentagon/NSC/Alphabet Agencies know exactly what they are doing and they are throwing the dementia patient under the bus on purpose.

          Not hard to have your troops on the ground phoney up an exchange of fire so you have an excuse to use your powerful air force to drop some pretty big bombs and then go on international TV and say, you will hold at X lat and Y long for 48 hours or else.

          Shades of the ISIS fiasco in 2014, only the Iraqis actually put up a fight.

          Cui bono?

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            I’m betting that the calculus used to make the decision was based upon the hope that most Americans wanted the USA out of “forever wars” and with short attention spans and short news cycles it will all be forgotten in a week.

            Then on to the next trillion dollar sh!tshow war.

          • 0 avatar
            28-Cars-Later

            “I’m betting that the calculus used to make the decision was based upon the hope that most Americans wanted the USA out of “forever wars” and with short attention spans and short news cycles it will all be forgotten in a week.”

            On this I have to disagree, those fed up with the endless war largely line up with Trump’s views and I highly doubt the DC Junta cares one iota about them or pretending to accomodate their views and then head back to warmongering. If anything, those Americans are viewed as enemies by the Junta and I expect the rheotic to be raised to 11 in the aftermath of this, if only as a distraction.

            “Then on to the next trillion dollar sh!tshow war.”

            Likely, Taiwan. I expect it to be traded away by the adminstration in a similar manner. Senator Biden’s reign seems to be to dismantle US assets in Asia for the PRC, or at least they are doing so in his name. Harris would be no different on foreign policy (or lack thereof) but in interal US policy I see her to be a real contender for a geniune dictatorship. I hope when Biden is forced to step down there is a counter coup behind the scenes because both candidates were incredubly unpopular and neither is fit to serve. I actually think a brief caretaker presidency from the Speaker of the House (herself out to pasture) could be sold to the public while a competent candidate is groomed.

          • 0 avatar
            Art Vandelay

            Being somewhere and being in a war somewhere are two different things. There hadn’t been anyone killed over there in 18 months. Following this logic, when will the troops be returning from the forever war that has seen us in Europe for 8 Decades. If after 80 years Europe is unable to step up and defend itself, are we willing to continue to spend trillions on the job?

          • 0 avatar
            28-Cars-Later

            I believe a now former President questioned the continued usefulness of NATO and was shouted down for it. I think you’re raising a similar question, and I agree when can they defend themselves? But while we’re at it, how about South Korea as well (I think with Japan its part of their postwar consititution that the US defend them so we can’t pull out of there)?

          • 0 avatar
            28-Cars-Later

            Additional: If somehow the Pentagon withdrew all US troops and tactical nuclear weapons from Europe, do you see the Red Army playing 1945 again and rolling across their former possessions at the least? That is supposed to be the point of NATO, to prevent such a scenario but if its really not in the cards at this point why have NATO?

          • 0 avatar
            la834

            “dementia patient” lol, you should really try getting your news from someplace other than the National Enquirer

          • 0 avatar
            Luke42

            @28-cars-later:

            You’ve presented us with a false dichotomy.

          • 0 avatar
            slavuta

            If we follow the footsteps of USSR, the junta will keep Biden, the figurehead up top there.

          • 0 avatar
            Art Vandelay

            @La834…he either lacks the cognitive capabilities (or his handlers think he does) to hold up to the questions the press wants to ask him, or he is a coward. Which is it?

      • 0 avatar
        Art Vandelay

        I actually remembered today that I have a coin (those of you that aren’t familiar with the military, this is something senior commanders do as a pat on the back or an “attaboy”) from then General Lloyd Austin. He was the CENTCOM commander at the time and I received it at Bagram Airfield during my last deployment.

        I gave John Kerry crap for tossing his medals, but today I threw that coin in the recycling bin. To quote Akear:. WHAT A DISGRACE!

        • 0 avatar
          slavuta

          When you say “Bagram Aitfield”… such memories..

          anyways…
          “when will the troops be returning from the forever war that has seen us in Europe for 8 Decades. If after 80 years Europe is unable to step up and defend itself”

          I hope this is sarcasm. US troops mission in Germany had not changed. They are there for Germany, not for Russia.

      • 0 avatar
        Arthur Dailey

        @ArtV. Eric Margolis is the acknowledged expert on Afghanistan. He volunteered for the US Army and served in Vietnam. He was ‘in country’ with the Mujahideen while they fought against the Soviets. From Day One he was against the western invasion/incursion into Afghanistan.

        Below is a link to his most recent blog post/column regarding the current events unfolding there.

        https://ericmargolis.com/

        • 0 avatar
          Art Vandelay

          Decisions made with respect to the botched war in no way excuse the botched evacuation. Price write stuff like that and then we nod our heads but fail to demand accountability from those that made those poor decisions. How about we start with the SECDEF and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff…2 leaders that are still around and built their careers of those bad decisions and we’re the ones making them. Biden like all the political types will get his or not at the ballot box. But frankly to simply shrug his shoulders but not clean his cabinet and inner circle of those that got us in speaks volumes to me.

          As an aside, there are right now more troops in country than there were my last deployment. We lost one person that deployment and it encompassed a so called fighting season.

          So more troops than it took to keep the entire country out of chaos can’t get Americans to the airport. That is a planning failure.

          WHAT A DISGRACE

        • 0 avatar
          slavuta

          I read this Eric Margolis. It is about 50% inaccuracy in his statements.

    • 0 avatar
      28-Cars-Later

      Fantastic satire.

      • 0 avatar
        Lou_BC

        The much more cynical bit of calculus is based upon the idea there are those who do not want terrorism to go away. A Taliban controlled Afghanistan will become a training ground and staging area for global raids.

        The USA has the doctrine of “the global battlefield”. That means they can deploy overt, covert, and clandestine forces anywhere they feel it is necessary. The “Bin Laden” raid comes to mind.

        • 0 avatar
          28-Cars-Later

          Gadaffi claimed in one of his interviews that it was Al Qaeda in the eastern half of Libya and it was they who wanted to overthow him. History has since showed it was the Obama Admin, British, and French who wanted him gone and they eventually got it. So since we now know that, what business did AQ have in wanting to oust a former state sponsor of terrorism? Wouldn’t the enemy of my enemy be my friend in this case?

          While I’m sure the Taliban could be or is classified as a terrorist organization, it is also a political one who did run Afghanistan from 1996-2001 and now will be in power again. AQ isn’t a political organization in the same way, if it was it could have declared itself a party and attempted to reshape Libya – but it didn’t. AQ to some degree seems to show up when it benefits the Western powers whereas the Taliban never went away and is seemingly a thorn in the side of the West. You may be right but I would not be surprised if the Taliban gives up overt terrorism and attempts to become the international political/religious force ISIS failed to become.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            ISIS was too bloodthirsty and that alone meant it was destined to fail. The risk of terrorist cells setting up in Afghanistan might be played to the Taliban’s benefit. The Taliban might be smart enough to limit the bloodlust and try to play ball with the USA. We’ve seen time and time again where the US turns a blind eye if a government does some of their bidding.

          • 0 avatar
            slavuta

            28,

            Taliban today is very different from the original one. In the original they had a lot of inclusions from Arabs and Mujahedin. This Taliban is mostly local Pushtun tribesmen.
            Don’t worry. They have several wings and Northern Alliance. Something will happen

    • 0 avatar
      FreedMike

      @Art:

      You were there – did you think the country would be able to stand on its’ own two feet when we left? My take was “no,” but I wasn’t there.

      I think everyone knew this endgame was always going to be a s**tshow. It’d have been a s**tshow if it’d happened under Trump, Obama, or Bush. That’s why they all kicked the can down the road to some extent. Trump’s contribution was to define when the can-kicking would end (one of the few good ideas he had). The can landed at Biden’s feet.

      Mainly I feel awful for the people who fought and lost loved ones there. I feel awful for the people who tried to make the country a better place. But I think we all knew this was going to happen. It was just a matter of when.

      • 0 avatar
        Art Vandelay

        So that’s not really a relevant question to the events of the past few days. Honestly I thought they’d do better than the Iraqis…at least certain parts. Remember the Northern Alliance with SF and CIA people training and providing Intel in conjunction with US airpower had taken most of the country back in the early days of the war before we had a large force on the ground so yeah, I had a fair degree of hope. If there was never any hope then a lot of people have been telling a lot of lies and it’s time for some resignations and prison sentences.

        But that’s not the issue. We knew we were leaving. We knew when we were leaving. The administration and senior military leadership planned the evacuation failing to account for a worst case scenario. As a career military guy I will say that that is the mother of all fnck ups.

        The war will be debated by history and people will be judged. But what happened over the weekend was not enevitable. It was negligence and a lack of planning and it falls to the President and his senior staff. Period.

        • 0 avatar
          FreedMike

          @Art: agreed 100%, this is on Biden. And, yeah, they didn’t plan for the “worst case scenario.” But what was the best case? I’d say that would have been “highly embarrassing affair.” Leaving was a no-win no matter how you sliced it.

          But that’s kind of like putting a little league team up against the Dodgers, watching them lose 102-0, and saying the little league team’s manager wasn’t “planning for the worst case scenario” because he expected to lose 70-0.

          This was going to be a disaster no matter how you cut it, I think. That’s why everyone just kicked the can down the road for 20 years. Incredibly stupid…and sad.

          • 0 avatar
            Art Vandelay

            It’s called backwards planning and it is taught at the earliest stages of a Military Officer’s professional development. “On day X, the end state will be Y”

            You then plan backwards from there all of the things that need to happen. As a small example, of you have thousands of people to get out, in your planning would you want to utilize:

            A: A modern 2 runway facility that is in a central and easily defendable position or

            B: A smaller facility way up North in a city of 6 million that relies on the Taliban to maintain a perimeter.

            And maybe 7 months ago they could have said “hey, can someone over at the State Department start to get an idea on the number of Americans still in country?

            And perhaps we could have paid some attention to how bad the Special Immigrant Visa program was prior to a Congressional vote last week.

            Again, there is plenty of room between a “not pretty” end to the war and the debacle that actually transpired.

            The worst case when 7 months ago they began discussing this was always Kabul falls quickly. Biden dismissed that and planned on other assumptions. He planned on us having plenty of time. We know this because of his own words. For him to say it couldn’t have gone any better is a lie and frankly his inability to admit even the smallest mistake in this is very Trump. He is an disgrace, incompetent, or both.

          • 0 avatar
            FreedMike

            @Art:

            If Biden “planned on having plenty of time” then he didn’t just pull that out of his a**. I’d like to know is what his advisors were telling him. It wouldn’t be the first time the president’s inner circle was giving him s**t info. Remember Kennedy’s advisors telling him the South Vietnamese government was viable and stable, or Bush’s intel agencies telling Saddam Hussein was busy building WMDs?

            It’s on Biden, for sure, but no politician just signs up to look as bad as he does right now.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            @FreedMike – ‘Bush’s intel agencies telling Saddam Hussein was busy building WMDs?’

            I’ve read several books on conflict in the Middle East and when it comes to WMD’s, the experts said that they could not find sufficient “actionable intelligence” to support that claim. Rumsfeld and Cheney then requested the raw intel data and came to their own conclusions.

            I tend to concur with Art’s comments. I’m suspecting that “the experts” advised against a pullout and wanted a much slower “draw down” but that went against politics therefore the current fiasco.

          • 0 avatar
            Art Vandelay

            Those experts are beginning to leak that they did in fact warn about this. I’m sure some of that is spin to attempt to keep their jobs and salvage their reputations, but it is happening none the less.

            I will say though, with respect to Biden…the vacation that he couldn’t emerge from to say a few words from for 72 hours…the about face after 2 press conferences without taking a question…the inability to admit the slightest mistake and a lack of empathy and reportedly not taking calls from the leader of our Staunchest ally (Norris Johnson) is not a good look for him and is frankly pretty disgraceful. Remember when we called out the last guy on his vacation habits? As they say in baseball…call it both ways , blue.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            @Art Vandelay – I fully agree. The problem is that the USA is in a position of hyper-partisanship. Any logical person questions both sides but in doing so, the “other” side will jump all over it as a form of validation to their rhetoric. It’s a catch22 situation.

  • avatar
    SCE to AUX

    Mary Barra, an EV industry disruptor?

    Sure, OK.

  • avatar
    Lie2me

    ANYWAY, back to CES…

    Their party, their rules. Don’t like it, don’t go

    It’s not like they’re making a cake for a Gay couple

  • avatar

    Never Mask, Never Vax!

    • 0 avatar
      FreedMike

      …great strategy for living in this pandemic pretty much forever.

      • 0 avatar
        zerofoo

        Influenza kills half a million people a year globally and has done so….well pretty much forever.

        Some diseases never go away. Any virus with animal reservoirs stays in circulation forever – unless you think you can vaccinate every cat, dog, bank vole, ferret, fruit bat, hamster, mink, pig, rabbit, racoon dog, tree shrew, and white-tailed deer in existence.

        Calling something a “pandemic” doesn’t necessarily mean that it can be eliminated.

        • 0 avatar
          Lou_BC

          @zerofool – the influenza argument once again. That’s getting really fooking old.

          Guess what?

          COVID-19 containment protocols have meant zero known cases of influenza in Canada and in the USA “Public health and clinical laboratories reported 2,038 flu cases during the season from Sept. 27, 2020, to April 24, 2021, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. The agency estimated about 38 million people were sick with the flu during the 2019-2020 season.”

          There are experts stating that governments should be legislating improved ventilation/filtration standards in all buildings where large numbers of people congregate.

          You need to work on learning the definitions of pandemic, epidemic, and endemic.

  • avatar
    SoCalMikester

    were people this whiny and stupid during the spanish flu? no, i imagine they werent. because they had important stuff to do, like improve cars,planes, all that awesome technology and science that was being done.

    these days they could die and absolutely NOTHING of value would be lost

    • 0 avatar
      slavuta

      Exactly. Lets stop the Earth from spinning – the COVID is here

    • 0 avatar
      Lou_BC

      @SoCalMikester –

      “In the United States, the Committee of the American Public Health Association ( APHA) issued measures in a report to limit large gatherings. The committee held that any type of gathering of people, with the mixing of bodies and sharing of breath in crowded rooms, was dangerous. Nonessential meetings were to be prohibited.”

      “The more restrictive methods of infection control issued by public health departments were quarantines and the isolation of the ill.”

      “They sought to prevent infection by breaking the channels of communication such as droplet infection by sputum control.”

      “The gauze mask was another prevention method using similar ideas of contagion and germ theory.”

      These were measures taken in 1918.

      https://virus.stanford.edu/uda/fluresponse.html

      Not much has changed in 100 years other than social media and alternative reality news sites spreading bullsh!t faster than Covid-19.

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