By on August 23, 2019

BMW Spartanburg Assembly Plant Factory

The trade war between the United States and China heated up again Friday, with the People’s Republic pulling a U-turn on its treatment of U.S.-built vehicles. Come mid-December, China will hit inbound U.S. vehicles with a 25-percent tariff. Auto parts will see a 5-percent tariff.

The new — well, resurrected — auto tariffs are a reactionary measure, coming after U.S. President Donald Trump proposed, then delayed, the levying of a 10-percent tariff on $300 billion of Chinese goods. While some import taxes will hit in September, the full range of tariffs is expected to come into effect on December 15th. China’s auto tariffs, first levied last year and lifted earlier this year as an olive branch gesture, are part of a larger raft of tariffs impacting $75 billion of U.S. goods. A 5- to 10-percent tariff hits non-auto U.S. goods on September 1st.

It’s no wonder every automaker wants to build Chinese-market vehicles within that country’s borders.

In announcing the looming tariffs, China’s Finance Ministry stated that Trump’s trade threats were  “seriously threatening the multilateral trading system.”

“China was forced to take countermeasures,” it added.

China’s tariff relaxation saw the country’s original 15-percent tariff remain in place as the two countries pursued trade negotiations. A July meeting between both sides didn’t bear much in the way of fruit. Still, talks are apparently still on track to resume in September, according to the White House.

While automakers like General Motors and Ford do big business in the now-rocky Chinese marketplace, many of those vehicles roll out of joint-venture assembly plants in China. (Ford plans to up its presence in that market with more locally built Lincolns.) Foreign automakers with a large manufacturing footprint in the U.S. stand to bear the brunt of the proposed tariffs, and this morning their stocks reflected it.

BMW’s stock sank more than 2 percent in Friday trading as the news hit, while Daimler AG took a similar hit before rebounding slightly. As Bloomberg notes, data from LMC Automotive shows that six of the U.S.’s top 10 auto exports hail from those two companies. Tesla, which is currently in the process of building an assembly plant in Shanghai while funnelling cars to Chinese customers via California, saw its stock fall more than 2 percent.

Trump seemed unfazed by China’s actions, taking to Twitter to rail against the country’s economic influence in a series of messages we’ll post in sequence here:

“Our Country has lost, stupidly, Trillions of Dollars with China over many years. They have stolen our Intellectual Property at a rate of Hundreds of Billions of Dollars a year, & they want to continue. I won’t let that happen! We don’t need China and, frankly, would be far..

“..better off without them. The vast amounts of money made and stolen by China from the United States, year after year, for decades, will and must STOP. Our great American companies are hereby ordered to immediately start looking for an alternative to China, including bringing..your companies HOME and making your products in the USA. I will be responding to China’s Tariffs this afternoon. This is a GREAT opportunity for the United States. Also, I am ordering all carriers, including Fed Ex, Amazon, UPS and the Post Office, to SEARCH FOR & REFUSE,….

“…all deliveries of Fentanyl from China (or anywhere else!). Fentanyl kills 100,000 Americans a year. President Xi said this would stop – it didn’t. Our Economy, because of our gains in the last 2 1/2 years, is MUCH larger than that of China. We will keep it that way!”

[Sources: MarketWatch, BBC]

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222 Comments on “Automakers Sweating After China Announces 25-percent Tariff on U.S. Autos...”


  • avatar
    ToddAtlasF1

    This should please AGW believers, as the ships we use to outsource jobs, fleece the working class and enrich billionaires are massive polluters and sources of CO2.

    • 0 avatar
      Lou_BC

      Nice to see you point out the “billionaires” as the root cause of the problem.

      “AGW believers”: that’s roughly 73% of Americans which is in line with most developed countries. That shifts to 97% in the scientific community.

      • 0 avatar
        thornmark

        >>That shifts to 97% in the scientific community.<<

        whatever that means

        never knew an informed person who believed that irrelevant statement

        • 0 avatar
          Hummer

          I remember the 9 out of 10 doctors recommending Marlboro advertisements, 87% of statistics are made up, and the rest are bought for. Doctors and scientists in this case are meaningless terms, the ideas is someone that’s school taught has studied the topic and has sufficient knowledge (which scientifically speaking AGW would technically be a hypothesis not a fact), the reality is that any high school drop out can be titled anything by any company willing to write it on their pay stub at the end of each month.

          An engineer from NC State university with a Bachelors is not the same as an Engineer in the US army, both have their own merits but neither is qualified to talk about the other’s job.

      • 0 avatar
        ToddAtlasF1

        You probably don’t know any actual scientists if you believe the 97% lie, which was as real a statistic as those released by Alfred Kinsey. Parroting the AGW lies doesn’t change what I wrote, which is that if you’re a dupe then you should be glad to save the planet by reducing trade. It will do far less harm to our standard of living than ‘renewable’ energy and far more to reduce the creation of greenhouse gases.

        • 0 avatar
          Lou_BC

          “You probably don’t know any actual scientists”

          I know quite a few actually. didn’t know you were much interested in my personal and/or professional life.

          How about the term consensus? 97% consensus.

          The best metaphor is this: if you have a curable cancer and 97% of the oncologists/researchers/pathologists/microbiologists/pharmacologists/surgeons recommend the same approach to treatment, what do you do?
          Follow the consensus or email some quack to send you mushroom tea and vitamin supplements?

          As far as the Marlboro comment – physicians, especially those in “for profit” systems are more likely to endorse approaches that will line their pockets.

          “Doctors and scientists in this case are meaningless terms”

          Doctor is basically anyone with a PHD. Scientist is a generic term and since I’m dealing with some self-proclaimed experts in multiple fields, I chose to go with a generic term.

          • 0 avatar
            ToddAtlasF1

            Perform a duckduckgo search on the terms 97% consensus myth. Then you can stop looking so ignorant. I doubt you’ll grasp the implications, but at least you can stop advertising your mental frailty so blatantly.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            @ToddAtlasF1 – I have looked at it in the past.

            Oh and please refrain the ad hominem attacks. You don’t know me or what I do for a living and I do not know you or your occupation.

            ” Consensus on Consensus – Cook et al. (2016)
            Authors of seven climate consensus studies — including Naomi Oreskes, Peter Doran, William Anderegg, Bart Verheggen, Ed Maibach, J. Stuart Carlton, and John Cook — co-authored a paper that should settle the expert climate consensus question once and for all. The two key conclusions from the paper are:
            1) Depending on exactly how you measure the expert consensus, it’s somewhere between 90% and 100% that agree humans are responsible for climate change, with most of our studies finding 97% consensus among publishing climate scientists.
            2) The greater the climate expertise among those surveyed, the higher the consensus on human-caused global warming.”

          • 0 avatar
            FreedMike

            Lou – you’re talking to someone who believes that disagreement makes you inferior to him. Don’t bother.

          • 0 avatar
            ToddAtlasF1

            What percentage of scientists who worked for Elizabeth Holmes came forward to proclaim that their paychecks depended on perpetuating a hoax? There’s your answer.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            @FreedMike – I unfortunately believe you are correct.

      • 0 avatar
        Art Vandelay

        “Nice to see you point out the “billionaires” as the root cause of the problem”

        “AGW believers”: that’s roughly 73% of Americans which is in line with most developed countries. That shifts to 97% in the scientific community”

        Fine, Enact a massive Carbon Tax on the transportation of goods from outside of North America. Make it especially punitive for countries that are “gross polluters” such as China. Quote some massive CO2 numbers that will be eliminated under such a tax and get our European allies on board. Give them sweetheart trade deals for playing ball.

        Win-Win

        • 0 avatar
          Luke42

          There’s a really simple way to fix this:
          1) Repeal the income tax.
          2) Replace it with a carbon tax.

          Taxes are often used to discourage things. We’d all be better off with more income and more expensive fuel (including the cost of carbon emissions in fuel, and letting the market do its thing with a corrected price signal).

          You’d think Conservatives would be all over repealing the income tax, too! Something for everyone!

          • 0 avatar
            Hummer

            How about repealing income tax and not making a tax that sounds like something a murderous ruling king from the dark ages would enact. We need Carbon, taxing it is literally taxing humans to live, beyond ridiculous.

          • 0 avatar
            TheDumbGuy-formerly JoeBrick

            Carbon tax my a$$ ! One of the biggest scams ever devised.
            BTW, what is AGW ? I don’t think we have that where I live. On the Eric Peters Auto website, they refer to Armed Government Workers as AGWs. Please explain.

          • 0 avatar
            ToddAtlasF1

            Aren’t we a good servant to our masters! There’s nothing better than a 100% regressive tax to eliminate the pesky working class. Slavery will look so nice next to death by homelessness, starvation and rat-born illness!

          • 0 avatar
            Luke42

            The carbon tax applies to fossil fuels extracted from the ground, not to the carbon you exhale.

            In order to win in this tax system, you figure out how to use less fuel. That might include hiring human laborers for work that was previously done by a machine (in some cases), thereby increasing the sum-total income earned by the working class.

            Anyway, even if you think AGW is a hoax, why wouldn’t you play ball on this to repeal the income tax?

          • 0 avatar
            SilverCoupe

            Former JoeBrick,

            “Anthropogenic global warming.”
            I had to look that up too.

          • 0 avatar
            ToddAtlasF1

            If 73% of Americans are on board with AGW, why do we even need to talk about it? Believers should show they’re sincere by reducing their own carbon footprints. Stop traveling on vacation. Stop driving. Grow your own gardens and eat the bugs that eat your organic crops. The planet will heal, and nobody will need to lose their personal freedoms and protections from an untrustworthy government. If you’re not willing to give up your lifestyle for your belief, then you don’t really believe. You must be after something else, and you deserve to be stopped.

          • 0 avatar
            dal20402

            Todd’s somehow figured out the solution to global warming, but he’s never heard of a collective action problem.

          • 0 avatar
            ToddAtlasF1

            The problem with collective action plans is that the ‘people’ who want them never want them to apply to themselves. Advocates are either dupes or monsters.

          • 0 avatar
            Roader

            James Charles, China is the world’s largest coal producer by far. They have 18% of the world’s population vs. the US’s 4%. The fact that the US vastly overproduces food relative to its population is to the world’s benefit. The fact that China produces seven times more coal than any other country, not so much.

          • 0 avatar
            TheDumbGuy-formerly JoeBrick

            Hey, any of you progressives who want to change the world and get rich at the same time,
            We Work.com is doing an IPO soon. Info at: https://www.wework.com/
            Website says that they will be making Trillions of dollars/ Invest now !

            More info at: https://wolfstreet.com/2019/08/14/in-hilarious-ipo-filing-wework-dreams-of-3-trillion-in-revenue-reports-billions-in-losses-red-ink-massacre-to-come-in-2nd-half/

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            “If 73% of Americans are on board with AGW, why do we even need to talk about it?”

            Ironically, roughly 27% of smokers believe that smoking does not increase the odds of lung cancer, heart attack and stroke. That is a great metaphor for AGW.

            We can be told that something is bad for us but changing habits involves much more than a diagnosis.

        • 0 avatar
          James Charles

          Art,
          Per capita, Australia, US and a host of other nations pollute far more than China.

          Yes they pollute, but the US is one of the worst, with us in Australia and the Canadians.

          You can’t on one hand state how cheap income is giving the Chinese a lead without realising higher the income generally the more polluting the country per capita.

          • 0 avatar
            Best_Ever

            (LEGIT) Source please.

          • 0 avatar
            Roader

            Per capita, Australia, US and a host of other nations produce far more than China.

            For instance, with only 4% of the world’s population, the US produces the most corn of any country, six times more corn than the PRC. You can’t on one hand state how little the Chinese pollute per capita without noting that the Chinese are very poor in comparison to Americans and Australians.

          • 0 avatar
            James Charles

            Roader,
            Corn?

            China leads the world in the production in many areas as well.

          • 0 avatar
            Art Vandelay

            @James, as has been pointed out the US worker is far more productive than the average Chinese worker. As I recall it isn’t even close. As such it stands to reason they would produce more carbon. Additionally a couple of our biggest industries (food and petroleum) are quite intensive. But if we quit growing all of that corn you speak of alot of non Americans would starve. The current population levels depend on that agriculture. I can live without my Chinese Widget, but not without food.

            Also China’s low per capital footprint depends on the rural population of China staying dirt poor.

            Contrary to your pontificating, we aren’t the bad guys here.

          • 0 avatar
            James Charles

            Art,
            Productivity based on dollar terms I agree.

            But, a table assistant in China earning enough to own a bicycle, not a car like in Australia or the US in some instances can’t be comparable.

            Both do a similar job, the Chinese worker might even work harder for less is more productive than the US equivalent.

            So, based on dollars I agree the US worker has greater overheads and earnings, which makes the Chinese worker more competitive and yet produce what the American produces using less energy, which energy overall translate into emissions.

            But at the end of the day its about emissions per capita.

            Just look at the pollution/landfill/recycling required by the US. The US (Australia and most any OECD nation) produces massive amounts of pollution, just because you earn more doesn’t give us the right to pollute more then limit other countries from producing more and earning more.

            How can we tell another country to have less per capita pollution because we want to styme your growth opportunities.

            That’s a form of trade protection.

            I don’t agree with the Chinese form of government, but it will not last like the USSR didn’t last, but China when it frees up will be a huge force to reckon with.

          • 0 avatar
            Roader

            “But at the end of the day its about emissions per capita.”

            No, at the end of the day it’s about emissions per capita divided by production per capita: efficiency. Producing cereal grains in huge quantities takes a lot of energy. That the US greatly over produces food in relation to its population means that it uses more energy per capita than a country that doesn’t over produce food.

            Australia’s in a similar position only with cement, not food. Cement production is the largest industrial CO2 emitter in the world. Australia produces a third again more cement per capita than the US. Cement is one reason why Australia’s CO2 emissions per capita are high.

            Countries that produce more emit more pollution.

          • 0 avatar
            James Charles

            Again Roader you display unfair bias.

            Just because you earn more dollars shouldn’t give you the right to pollute more. Its a form of protectionism.

            Why can’t another improve productivity and pollute more if you think you are allowed to?

            It is about pollution per capita. The US and other OECD economies are the world’s biggest polluters.

            Using your paradigms and fear that China produces all this stuff and exports it means China should be able to pollute similar levels as the US per capita.

            If not why do you complain about China, its not a threat. You just can’t swing and change to suit your real view that you are insecure and live in fear. So any opportunity you have you will screw anyone to placate your total lack of security.

            Judging by your comments and your inabilty to comprehend my suggestion is to expand and educate yourself, try finishing high school and go to college. You’ll find most of your fears are not as real as you perceive them.

          • 0 avatar
            Roader

            “…try finishing high school and go to college.”

            Maybe you’re insane, James.

      • 0 avatar
        2manycars

        The percentage of Americans that have been conned into believing in the AGW religion is irrelevant. (What percentage believe in astrology?)

        The 97% figure is a blatant lie if used to claim that percentage of the scientific community accepts AGW as a fact. (All they agree on is that CO2 is a greenhouse gas. Not whether human activity is adding enough to have an effect.) Many scientists dispute the claims of the AGW climate hysterics.

        • 0 avatar
          highdesertcat

          The planet’s climate has been changing since the day this planet was formed, cooling, warming, in cycles.

          So now we are in the warming cycle which started about 10,000 years ago when the glaciers started to melt.

          During my youth Global Cooling was the climate topic du jour.

          Ignore the hysteric ramblings of the eco-freakin’ greenweenies. Once they are proven wrong they always change the name of the topic, most recently from climate change to global warming.

          What a crock!

          What’s worse is that SOME intelligent people are actually buying into this ca-ca.

          Hopefully sanity will prevail again, like it has in all the former false alarms.

          • 0 avatar
            ToddAtlasF1

            “What’s worse is that SOME intelligent people are actually buying into this ca-ca.”

            I think you’re confusing selling out with buying in.

          • 0 avatar
            highdesertcat

            It depends on what their value-set of beliefs is.

            Those selling out are the non-believers easily overwhelmed by criticism, avoiding confrontation and resistance.

            Those buying in are predisposed to the “America is the world’s worst polluter” movement and ready to join any and all call to arms from the eco-weenies and tree-huggers. They’re just chompin’ at the bits to join this cause.

            In another 10,000 years or so, Global Cooling and a new Ice Age/Glaciers will be the eco-freak call to arms.

            It’s cyclical. Study Geology. There’s a record there, in the landmasses, the sea beds and the ice caps.

          • 0 avatar
            James Charles

            HDC,
            Try and understand RATE of change. Climate change has always occurred as you stated, but human activity has accelerated greatly the RATE of climate change.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            @highdesertcat – please explain your rationale.

            Where is the evidence that backs your assertions?

            I’d love to read them.

            On a per capita basis a Canadian and an American pollute more than a Chinese. Since China has close to 1.4 billion people, that shifts the scale against them.

          • 0 avatar
            highdesertcat

            Guys, you are both entitled to your alarmist opinions about global warming, climate change, and any other swill you’d like to make your mantra, but don’t expect everybody else to agree with you.

            If you’re wrong, life will go on for us on this planet.

            If you’re right about your alarmist notions, then this world will end in less than 12 years according to AOC and her advisors.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            @highdesertcat – since you don’t agree with me then please post your evidence that supports your position.
            It isn’t all that hard to cut and paste supporting information.

            I’m all for dissent and disagreement. That is part of a healthy scientific community as well as a healthy political and social community.

          • 0 avatar
            bd2

            Guess farmers, ranchers, fishermen/lobstermen/crabmen, real estate developers, the PENTAGON, etc. are all “eco-freakin’ greenweenies.”

            Maple tree farmers have had to tap their trees earlier and earlier and there is fear that the prime maple syrup producing climate is shifting north to Canada.

            In the midwest, farmers have been hit w/ constant flooding from massive downpours (warmer air holds more moisture) which has prevented them from planting.

            Alaskan crabmen have had to seek out crab closer to the arctic circle than they ever had.

            Developers are no longer willing to invest so much in coastal areas; in addition, insurers and the RE-insurers are less inclined to offer flood coverage in those areas (the insurance business is all about the data and risk assessment).

            Miami is now getting flooded on a pretty regular basis – not from a storm surge, but from high-tides (when the moon aligns).

            Florida legislatures have publicly dismissed the notion of climate change, but quietly have funded hundreds of millions into infrastructure projects to alleviate the flooding in Miami.

            And the US military/the Pentagon has taken climate change into account in predicting future hotspots – areas more prone for future conflicts due to declining resources from climate change.

            On the “plus” side – upstate New York has now become a climate suitable to produce grapes for wine production.

    • 0 avatar
      cognoscenti

      https://xkcd.com/1732/

  • avatar
    thelaine

    It’s long past time we fought back. There is no painless way to do it. Many people oppose the president’s policies simply because they have TDS.

    • 0 avatar
      Lou_BC

      TPP was meant to hem in China without the trade war. It was not without flaws but would have been less disruptive than a trade war.

      • 0 avatar
        Art Vandelay

        Do we really know what TPP was for? You may be right but frankly I would have been more apt to support it had they not locked it in a room and never let anyone actually read it while simply saying “Trust us, it’s good”. On what planet is that a recepie for success?

        • 0 avatar
          TheDumbGuy-formerly JoeBrick

          We have to pass it before you can see what’s in it.- paraphrased from Nasty Pelosi.

        • 0 avatar
          Lou_BC

          “Do we really know what TPP was for?”

          I already mentioned what it was for and it actually was going to update a large part of NAFTA. The USA had DJ Trump grand stand over TPP and NAFTA and demand concessions. Guess what? Everything that Canada agreed to concede in the USMCA was covered in TPP. WOW. Talk about being a master negotiator.

          • 0 avatar
            Art Vandelay

            @Lou, then why all the cloak and dagger if it was so great. Why didn’t they make the contents public and have a real debate? It was crazy to shroud it in the secrecy they did (Those voting on it had to go to a room and read it and couldn’t take notes or talk about it). Nobody at the time could know what was in it because Congress wouldn’t share what was in it. We are talking about a trade bill for crying out loud, not specific items in NDAA that get classified for national security interests…they just put a gag on the whole thing and said “Trust us”. Well if you trust any of the whole lot of them you are a fool.

            Again, have your beef with Trump, that is fine. But defending the process by which the TPP was being pushed on the American People as anything other than shady makes you out to be a hack. If it was a good bill, why not let people read it…any of it for that matter.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            @Art Vandelay – I do agree that there was much “cloak and dagger” around it. I don’t have an answer to that other than the fact that aspects of it would not sell well politically.

        • 0 avatar
          HotPotato

          That’s how almost every big trade agreement is done: fast track authority. Otherwise, the 300 industries that come out ahead get ratf*d by the 3 that don’t, and the deal comes crashing down.

    • 0 avatar
      Luke42

      Tell me again how reducing the amount of business which occurs is good for business?

      • 0 avatar
        Luke42

        A trade war is essentially a situation where we burn down our own economy until our “opponent” (AKA trade partner) cries uncle.

        This is what we’re seeing unfold before our very eyes.

        • 0 avatar
          Hummer

          Our economy seems to still be growing unlike China’s, so much for burning down our own economy.

          • 0 avatar
            ToddAtlasF1

            Let’s take economic advice from the people who said the market would crash the day Donald Trump took office. Oh wait. Let’s not. We’d have to be as stupid and ideology-addled as they are.

          • 0 avatar
            Luke42

            The automotive sector is already in recession, which is why we see decreasing sales numbers and low-margin models being cut.

            The bond yield curve is inverted, so bond investors think a recession is coming soon. They’ve been a pretty reliable indicator of a recession up to this point.

            Fox News is terrible at reporting on economic issues — their only economic metric is the party affiliation of the president, which isn’t all that useful as a metric. For instance Democrats do Tax & Spend, but Republican presidents tend to drive up the federal spending deficit, because they cut taxes without cutting spending. So, if you look at the actual federal spending deficit data (on the St Louis Fed website), you will see the federal deficit spike after Bush II and after Trump. Fox News will never admit that, LOL!

          • 0 avatar
            ToddAtlasF1

            The national debt grew at half the rate under Bush part duh than it grew under Osama. There’s no getting away from that. The inverted bond yield curve has been indicating the imminence of a recession for as long as the media puppets have known the phrase inverted yield curve.

          • 0 avatar
            highdesertcat

            The last guy in the White House more than Doubled the National Debt during his eight years in office. Where was the outcry then?

            Not a peep from the ‘crats.

            Now it’s all Trump’s fault. Go figure.

            No wonder the ‘crats are in total meltdown and disarray while Trump will be re-elected by a landslide in 2020.

          • 0 avatar
            Hummer

            Luke, Fox News is as left as all the others, having 2-3 conservatives that aren’t parroting the same leftist lines does not make the entire network politically right. Using Fox News as the basis for believing you are correct is just as useless as using CNN and NBC and all the other fake news outlets.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            “and all the other fake news outlets”

            What would we do without Twitter?

          • 0 avatar
            highdesertcat

            Hummer, I’ve gotten away from all the fake news channels and watch NewsyTV, CNBC, Bloomberg, and NBR on TV, and read the WSJ, APN, UPI, Newsy.com and Reuters on the Web. I’m pretty happy with each of those sources.

            I never cared for Fox News because their talking heads always interrupted the guest when the guest was talking. Irritating! But the best looking women are on Fox!

            CNN was at one time the greatest news source on TV, like when Wolf Blitzer and Bernie Shaw reported the First Gulf War Live from Baghdad. But no more.

            It’s all about influencing opinion these days on the Fake News Media.

            I like to draw my own conclusions.

    • 0 avatar
      dal20402

      Trade wars are just as dumb when Democrats propose them, which they do often.

      • 0 avatar
        highdesertcat

        President Trump took their trade wars proposals one step further. He acted on them and Chuck Schumer went on the public record stating he supports President Trump’s punitive trade wars.

        And so should ALL Americans because since the end of WWII many of our trading partners have played America for the fool when it came to trade, slapping tariffs on American-made goods they import while enjoying no or very low tariffs on the goods America imported from them.

        Love or hate Trump but this is the right thing to do for America to make trade fair and equitable again.

        • 0 avatar
          dal20402

          Don’t forget that tariffs, counterintuitively, cost the most for the nation that imposes them. If they are imposing tariffs on us, but we’re not on them, the result is that they are spending more for goods and services than we are, making us more competitive (and raising our living standards).

          • 0 avatar
            highdesertcat

            All true but America is in a much better position to apply pressure (and tariffs) since China only imports ~$75Billion from the US whereas the US imports from China exceed $500Billion.

            And if THEY are imposing tariffs on goods made by US, fewer people there will be able to buy them because they are more expensive.

    • 0 avatar
      James Charles

      Thelane,
      Its well and good to consider your perspective correct, which on the surface is appealing to many, “no painless way”. I beg to differ.

      So, here’s the problem confronting Donnie. Many multilateral arrangements exist for trade globally, which impacts geopolitics. Trump has been trying to fracture many multilateral agreements as that’s the only way the US can realise its strength economically.

      It isn’t working to plan. Most of the World are sticking to prior agreements. Why? Because the value and committment of most countries is far more secure than dealing with a US that under Trump keeps on moving trade goal post, he’s 2 faced.

      Take the TPP for example, Trump is trying to do a trade deal with Japan, even US beef is on the table. Trump wants the same taxes levied on US beef imports that, Australia, Canada, Chile are charged. How can Japan offer this? The same goes for all other goods and services. The TPP without the US is as large as the US economy and the TPP nations are forging much closer political ties as well. This makes the US less relevant and the Japanese are the 800lb gorilla now, not the US.

      Now look at the EU, the Trump National Socialists are actively trying to fracture the EU, meddling with Hungary, Poland, UK, etc, so the can set up unilateral deals. The EU is p!ssed at the US. Why is the US National Socialists doing this? Because the EU economically the US can’t defeat.

      Maybe the US rather than causing trouble and meddling should focus on making America Great Again. Disruption as we are seeing from America is not constructive and as we are witnessing the US is losing out and the rest of the World so far have maintained the multilateral arrangements.

      Most smaller economies realise their strength in numbers to challenge the Chinese ,……. and now the US interference. The US has not gained economically or politically and when the Trump National Socialists are gone the US will be for the worse and need to rebuild trust. Remember even if the US reduces China’s growth to even 5.5% China will outstrip most everyone else.

      • 0 avatar
        Lou_BC

        @James Charles

        I agree with your post other than the word “Socialist”. Fascist maybe, populist maybe………socialist? Definitely not.

        • 0 avatar
          ToddAtlasF1

          Are you guys competing to see how low you can set the bar? Fascists are socialists. National Socialists were Nazis, who were just like every other socialist except they were defeated militarily instead of starving themselves to death. Unlike Trump, the National Socialists and Fascists were environmentalists(misanthropy with marketing every time), enacted a command economy, used identity politics to divide and concur, rejected Christianity, had an unhealthy love for animals and rejected the rights of the individual for the collective. If you see a conservative or a moderate like Trump in any of that, you are past redemption. BAFO is ridiculous and shameless enough to call Trump a Nazi, and you’re so clueless you don’t know that Nazis were socialists. You might be the least informed person I’ve ever encountered on the internet.

          • 0 avatar
            James Charles

            Toddly,
            I again see this BAFO. I tried Googling BAFO as a US slang word, but nothing.

            Trump is a racist or what’s his new identity he wants? The Chosen One. Messiah?

            The guy is a buck 99 short of $2.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            @ToddAtlasF1 – “Fascists are socialists” Citations required!

          • 0 avatar
            ToddAtlasF1

            I spelled out everything that Fascists have in common with other socialists. They have precisely nothing in common with libertarians or conservatives. If you can’t put it together then it is because you don’t understand the evil that you espouse.

            Let’s make believe that Nazis aren’t socialists for a moment. That would mean that the ten million people killed by Nazis in their power struggle with other socialists shouldn’t be counted in socialists’ more than one hundred million victims. if Nazis and socialists are two different groups of villains, socialists are ten times worse than Nazis. They just splintered Nazis from their mass so they could keep perpetuating evil after WWII.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            @ToddAtlasF1

            Please spell it out with citations/sources etc.

            Snopes has a very well written explanation of socialism and fascism. They even take into consideration the current USA political climate.

            ht tps: // www. snopes. com/ news/2017/09/05/were-nazis-socialists/

          • 0 avatar
            ToddAtlasF1

            Like I said, pretend Nazis and Socialists aren’t the same thing. That makes Socialists ten times worse than Nazis. Snopes are socialists. Is it any wonder that they’ll lie to achieve their genocidal goals?

        • 0 avatar
          James Charles

          Thank you for your kind words.

          Believe it or not we have had many meaningful discussions for over a decade.

          Remember how I stated diesels in US pickups? Or how the US auto sector (Big3) were going to become ever so reliant on full size pickups and their station wagon off springs.

          Many have rejected my insight over the years because it doesn’t gell with their paradigms. But as we are witnessing now in the US the fear and insecurity of many leads to poor leadership being elected.

          If one looks at the figures the US has never had such large deficits both imports and government borrowing. And when imports reduce, business activity drops the US will not rise to where it was, a drop will occur, small, but never the less a loss in standard of living, similar to an atypical Western EU nation, without the social support.

          The US has had a dynamic history, violent at times, but this time many Americans didn’t realise how well off they were and want too much. Add this to the fear of a weaker America and you end up with the National Facists in power.

          Who will lead the world next? I’d bet the EU, not China. The world is adopting mostly EU standards, even social engineering. Remember the EU has been where the US is now, 100 years ago or so. They’ve learnt through war it just ain’t worth it.

          The US will still be a significant player, a poorer cousin with much less influence.

          • 0 avatar
            Roader

            “If one looks at the figures the US has never had such large deficits both imports and government borrowing.”

            The European Union in aggregate has a higher gross government debt as a percentage of GDP than the US.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            @James Charles – I may not always agree with your opinion but I do appreciate your input. One can disagree and still learn from it. Critical thinking can also be viewed as the scientific approach. Politics like religion often close the door upon critical thinking or at least being open to the idea that more than one viewpoint is correct or a blend of viewpoints may be the best solution. That is where ethics come into play. How does one make a decision when there are 2 conflicting but equally valid rights? there are those here that could not follow the ethical process to a logical conclusion since that means accepting a conflicting idea as being equally valid.

          • 0 avatar
            James Charles

            Roader,
            Your statement will have little to do with influence, which as we are witnessing the world is adopting EU standards.

            If you didn’t realise harmonising standards increases compatibility. The EU have been clever in formulating standards that are usable across many nations.

            This facilitates trade which flows onto political ties.

            This zero sum game the US is playing will eventually give the US less.

            The US is 20% of global economic activity, which is the largest slice by a single nation.

            But, the EU is nearly on par, China is catching up, the TPP is on par with the US economy and the EU is forging multilateral arrangements from Sth America to Asia.

            The US is on its own, 80% of the World is not America. After WWII America was over 50% of global economic activity, it was in a position of total dominance, that leverage just ain’t there now.

            That’s reality.

          • 0 avatar
            Roader

            James Charles, harmonizing regulatory standards, when the sovereignty of nations isn’t unduly affected, is a good thing.

            As far as the US being 50% of economic activity after WWII, you have to consider that the vast majority of the world’s industrial infrastructure at that point was destroyed with the exception of the US. As a result the US had a near 30-year monopoly on manufactured goods. Manufacturers were making money hand over fist. People w/o a high school education could get excellent, high-paying jobs with outstanding benefits in factories. Life was great!

            But then the Germans and Japanese rebuilt. The party was over. The US had to compete on equal footing with all of the other industrialized countries. It was a period of adjustment, sometimes painful. Remember back in the 80s when Japan was going to take over the world. How’d that work out? Japan’s public debt-to-GDP is currently 224%.

            The US existed for 230 years on its current constitution. France is on its fifth republic in about the same time. The Federal Republic of Germany has existed since only 1945. Europe is in a demographic death spiral, as is China. That’s reality.

            I wouldn’t count out the US quite yet.

          • 0 avatar
            James Charles

            Roader,
            How does the harmonisation of standards affect sovereignty?

            Really man, what BS.

            How does the metric system, vehicle harmonisation etc affect anything negatively?

            I can’t believe that comment.

            The reality is the US can gain more by working with other countries, like it used to.

            Isolating oneself is counterproductive to progress. Killing competition because you are not competitive is counterproductive.

            The US will lose out hear as the rest of the world will progress while the US becomes insular. You might be happy, but it comes at a cost to the US.

          • 0 avatar
            Roader

            @ James Charles: “How does the harmonisation of standards affect sovereignty?”

            Er, EU directive #12345: ‘Automobiles may not emit any carbon dioxide other that through out-gassing of seating materials.’

            …or some such greenie nonsense. Don’t be obtuse. The EU regulatory state is even more Stalinist than the US regulatory state. Where we have shared goals then, yes, harmonization makes sense.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            @ToddAtlasF1 – “pretend Nazis and Socialists aren’t the same thing”

            I’m still waiting for some evidence that supports your assertions.

            A simple cut and paste of a few links is a rather simple task.

            Hurling insults just means that you actually have zero evidence to back your position!

          • 0 avatar
            James Charles

            Lou,
            With my aviation engineering/systems knowledge, business acumen, both civil and government has landed me a plumb job in organisation design.

            This has opened my eyes to the variations and differences between EU, American and Asian business cultures. One can see what influences the different business models globally by region, even down to traditional US manufacturing vs Asian or EU retail to American retail.

            The US has huge challenges and cultural changes to make to remain competitive in traditional manufacturing, this is evident in the US auto (Big3) sector and US retail.

            Asians overall have the better manufacturing model, EU has the best retail model and the US leads many services and high tech models.

            The US needs to focus on its strengths and forget competing at what its not most competitive at.

          • 0 avatar
            James Charles

            Roader,
            You again display your lack of knowledge on how the UNECE vehicle harmonisation framework is constructed and used.

            1. Its not European, its global. The EU does have significant influence.
            2. The UNECE vehicle harmonisation frame is based on standards more so than regulation. You described a regulation, which is only enacted by whatever country.
            3. Take Australia we conform and comply to many UNECE standards, but we (or any nation) use the standards to our advantage, hence our vehicles are on average much larger than many EU and Asian countries.
            4. In Australia the use of EU standards allow us to manufacture, farm, or whatever meeting UNECE standards. This doesn’t mean fuel is taxed the same, vehicle size is taxed the same or whatever. It means we conform and comply, allowing our product access to a market.
            5. FTAs/Trade Deals is how you trade.

            You have shown a complete lack of understanding in most comments you have made. Basically untruths.

            Remember, standards facilitate trade. Trade deals make the trade transaction.

            Comprehend.

          • 0 avatar
            Roader

            “You have shown a complete lack of understanding in most comments you have made. Basically untruths.”

            Yet, whenever I counter your opinions with actual facts (IMF’s GDP figures for example, which you championed) you move on to another screed.

            I don’t comment on this site often. For instance, I didn’t realize that you are a banned commenter who came back using a new name. But it’s starting to make sense now that others have pointed it out. You’re a reactionary: anything to do with the US is bad. And when you lose an argument based on facts, you stoop to slander, as this old guy noted:

            ‘When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser.’
            — Socrates

            And I wonder why. Well, I think I may have figured that out. You say you were “born Long Island NY, did school in Sth Jersey” but now apparently you live in Australia. For some reason you moved. Maybe your parents took you. Maybe you were mugged on the Rutgers campus. In any case, you moved. And things are so much better in Australia than New Jersey! Everyone is just so darned white and nice! You remind me of an ex-smoker, the most reactionary anti-smokers on the planet. You’re justifying changing country of residence to yourself and everyone else who will listen.

            I’m sick of listening.

          • 0 avatar
            James Charles

            Roader,
            GDP is one of multiple metrics used.

            The reality is the US isn’t playing ball and trying to reset the world to suit itself, a world which it created.

            Now that the world can play the game as good as or better in some cases than the US means the US must get a better coach than Trump.

            You just can’t say we need to handicap ourselves because we are not as strong and competitive as we used to be.

            The US right now is having the equivalent of a tantrum, because its no longer the best at everything.

            Compete, I don’t believe the world was out to screw the US over.

            Roader, go back and discuss your views with fellow NRA fanatics and the Creationists.

            You live in fear, hence your inability to accept. Its written in every comment you have made.

      • 0 avatar
        87 Morgan

        ToddAtlas….some facts to include in your deficit statements.

        Under Obama, a significant portion of the deficit increase was accounting.

        Obama required the Iraq and Afghanistan wars be put on the books in lieu of supplemental appropriations which is how the Bush administration ‘paid’ for the wars, which were not paid for. Adding an unpaid bill to the legder is all that was done. Their were other accounting procedures as well, such as accounting for the full cost of medicare remibursements. The list goes on. Did Obama spend, yup. More than Bush? Nope. No one spent more than Bush.

        Trump, while perhaps not spending more has reduced the amount coming in with his tax cuts. So, no matter what the next democrat president, whenever that will be, will be lambasted for raising taxes. The system is so deceitful it is ridiculous.

        • 0 avatar
          bd2

          In addition to Obama putting the cost of the 2 wars “back on the books” – the deficit growth under Obama was also due to other GW Bush policies.

          2 of the major ones being the unpaid for Medicare Drug plan and the tax cuts (Obama agreed to extending the tax cuts in the hope that would facilitate more bi-partisanship, but never was going to reciprocated by the right-wingers).

          The rest was the govt. trying to stimulate the economy – which is what the govt. should be doing during a depression/recession.

          However, under Drumpf, the deficit has increased to about a Trillion (under Obama, once the economy started to recover, the deficit decreased 4 out of the 8 years – getting as low as $438 Billion).

          And during times of economic growth, the govt. is supposed to reduce the deficit – so that it would be in better shape to deal w/ the next economic downturn (which is coming), but under Drumpf, that’s been the exact opposite.

          In addition, Drumpf has been hammering the Fed to keep lowering the interest rate, which takes away one of the major tools the govt. has to battle a recession/depression (not coincidentally, the Drumpf companies w/ their amount of debt would benefit financially in the millions w/ lower interest rates).

    • 0 avatar
      bd2

      No, many opposed the the orange dotard’s policies b/c they are stupid (and the dotard changes his mind so often that businesses have little idea what to plan for).

      Most of the world has trade (among other) issues w/ the PRC, so the smart thing to do would have been to build a COALITION (w/ the EU, Canada, Mexico, ASEAN nations, South America, African nations, etc.) = which would have been much better able to exert pressure onto China.

      But the buffoon decides to fight a trade war w/ the PRC one-on-one, while at the same time, insulting our allies and picking trade wars w/ them (so basically driving them to have closer trade ties w/ China).

  • avatar
    Art Vandelay

    “It’s no wonder every automaker wants to build Chinese-market vehicles within that country’s borders”

    So it’s an effective tactic for the Chinese but we are idiots trying to burn our economy to the ground when we do the same?

    Honestly I have plenty of beef with the President and his delivery, but he isn’t wrong here. The USA has become like an Opiod addict with respect to China, addicted to that cheap labor and low priced goods that come as a result of playing fast and loose with the environment, treating laborers in a manner that would make those companies running coal mines from “company towns” back in the day envious and cutting out expensive R&D by simply stealing IP.

    It has to stop and much like that addict coming off of their drug of choice, the immediate aftermath is going to be rough. But also much like that addict, if they can shake the addiction then they are much better in the long run. Those Detox Tremors can really suck though.

    • 0 avatar
      slavuta

      ” The USA has become…” – no, not the USA. The corporations-politicians conglomerate. The stock market. Shareholder-first policy. This is house of cards from the beginning. And it could only last so long.

      • 0 avatar
        TheDumbGuy-formerly JoeBrick

        My views about the government- I admit not the same as most peoples’ views- are that the (Federal ) government does everything besides doing the job it was invented to do. When the Federal government was created, it did not take and re-distribute wealth. It was supported only by tariffs, no income or other taxes. I won’t list the tasks that it did, but some of them were to protect the borders, keep the trade routes open for foreign trade, and operate the Postal service. They DID NOT INCLUDE RE-DISTRIBUTION OF WEALTH. Now, that is what that the Federal government does. And run the Postal service the military, and conduct endless wars to showcase military hardware for foreign sale. Period. 90% of the government is wealth re-distribution in one form or another. With the exception of border protection and the Navy, most of what the Federal government does should be eliminated. Sure, keep the Supreme court to rule on disputes between the states. But not to rule on state laws. Sure, maintain the Federal highway system. But eliminate the rest on a case-by-case basis. And cut taxes by 95%. Let the states do the rest. And eliminate the Federal Reserve.
        “You may call me a dreamer, but I’m not the only one.”

        • 0 avatar
          MoparRocker74

          Probably the most common sense that’s been on the internet since it’s existed.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            “Probably the most common sense that’s been on the internet since it’s existed.”

            O_o

          • 0 avatar
            MoparRocker74

            Ill assume the BC stands for British Columbia…where I’ll assume they don’t teach much American history. What Dumb Guy outlined is a stripped down synopsis of the ideals championed by the Founding Fathers. Which in an unprecedented brief time took a pipsqeak backwater fledging country made up of rejects and misfits and built a world power with the highest standard of living for its citizens worldwide. We’ve been going bass-ackwards into socialism and bigger government for over a hundred years now. Communism, elitist dictatorial government, diminished individual liberty etc are old, worn out played out and proven to fail q100% of the time.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            @MoparRocker74 – We do get USA history in Canadian schools but not a deep dive. With that being said, one does need to understand the history of the USA especially its geopolitical aspirations if one wants to understand what goes on around us. The USA is still financially and militarily the most powerful country around.

        • 0 avatar
          SPPPP

          “TheDumbGuy” (your words, not mine), I see your point. However, when you say “90% of the government is wealth re-distribution in one form or another”, I think you are forgetting that the super-rich in this country are doing a really good job of wealth re-distribution on their own. That is, re-distributing the wealth of the nation *from* the middle class *to* the super-rich. National defense can mean more than one thing. It’s not just about guns and missiles pointing out from our national border. I think the government should have some role in defending people within the border from the other people within the border that are trying to exploit them. Otherwise, society would look a lot like anarchy, and a “might makes right” world.

          • 0 avatar
            TheDumbGuy-formerly JoeBrick

            @SPPPP- I agree completely. But IMO, the FBI has devolved into the most corrupt police force in the world with the possible exceptions of Putin’s and third-world secret police units. But cutting the Federal taxes and budget by 95% would force a lot of changes. Yes, keep the Navy and Air Force, but stop all of the endless wars. They serve only one purpose- to show off military hardware we want to sell to anyone/dictators/tyrants all around the world. That is one reason the founders wanted a full-time Navy, but NO standing Army.

        • 0 avatar
          Roader

          “When the Federal government was created, it did not take and re-distribute wealth. It was supported only by tariffs, no income or other taxes.”

          Let’s repeal the Sixteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution. No more federal income tax.

    • 0 avatar
      Art Vandelay

      Additionally, if the Chinese want to play hardball and start dumping treasury bonds (another scenario akin to the addict that needs to get cleaned up as well), then I say we make some of that up by increasing Arms sales to Taiwan. A few years ago I know we wouldn’t sell them Aegis Class Destroyers at China’s urging.

      The Government of China is not our friends and frankly they are a step above North Korea with respect to human rights. Yet we tolerate it over money. That needs to cease and the world needs to treat them like every other despotic regime.

      • 0 avatar
        Lorenzo

        There’s so much demand for US treasuries, the Chinese “dumping” them would have no effect. That’s why the rate on 20 year treasuries dipped below the 10 year rates. The US is still the safest place to stash cash.

        Human rights is a small part of the conflict with China. The Chinese ignore international laws they don’t like – claiming the entire South China Sea, claiming the international waterway between China and Taiwan to be an inland Chinese waterway – ignoring provisions of treaties they’ve signed, among many others.

        It’s not just a trade war, it’s getting what is in effect a regional bully to respect the rules of international law. The Chinese have agreed to abide by the law of the sea they signed, but ignored tribunal rulings against them when it suited them. Only the US has the economic and political heft to make China pay a price, and that’s exactly what the US is doing.

    • 0 avatar
      gtem

      “The USA has become like an Opiod addict with respect to China”

      Not only that but the fentanyl that is killing literal tens of thousands of Americans a year can all be traced back to China. If nothing else, I’d point to this as a very direct and serious attack on the US citizenry.

    • 0 avatar
      bd2

      Wrong in going about it; should have built a trade coalition instead of fighting one-on-one trade battles, including w/ allies.

      In addition, many businesses have already shifted production to lower cost nations like Vietnam, Cambodia, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Egypt, etc.

      Despite all the bluster, hasn’t stopped Drumpf from making his Drumpf-branded merchandise made in China and elsewhere – and his last 2 major development projects (Chicago and Vegas) used imported Chinese steel and aluminum.

      All bluster (to appeal to his base), but not willing to walk the walk himself.

  • avatar
    slavuta

    My prophesies come to life!! If American company wants to sell product in America – make it in America. If you want to sell it somewhere else – make it anywhere you want. Problem solved. No, suckers want to make it cheap in China, bring here, and sell for as much as if American-made. ‘

    But I am a bit disagree on stealing tech. Yes, they do. Every Chinese here in America is potentially providing info to Chinese government. Even, how company where they work operates. The roles of the people, the structure. But we brought technology to them, into their land. I have a friend, who is PHD in physics and he was working for Thompson electronics. Well, they closed the office here and took all the blueprints to China, trained local dudes and then engineering was done in China. So, did they steal? No! they were given!

    • 0 avatar
      Art Vandelay

      “So, did they steal? No! they were given!”

      Maybe in some cases, but they have very sophisticated industrial espionage programs that are sanctioned by or carried out directly by the Chinese government. All of that hacking isn’t directed at the defense infrastructure.

    • 0 avatar
      highdesertcat

      slavuta, there was a lot more involved in helping China develop into a first-world nation. Entry into the WTO was the gateway that threw business from all members in China’s direction to help it develop and modernize.

      Some economists suspected that Communist Totalitarian China would fock the world away in its quest for modernization and planned world dominance. But their observations and predictions were minimized by American administrations past who had committed themselves to turning China toward the West and away from post-1989 Russia.

    • 0 avatar
      conundrum

      @slavuta

      “Every Chinese here in America is potentially providing info to Chinese government.”

      And every Russian in America potentially is doing the same for the Russian government.

      Etc. The argument has no end. It’s risible. Personally, I think we should all worry about Christmas Islanders.

      The people I trust the least are the globalist businessmen who’d sell their soul for a lousy buck extra on the quarterly bottom line, as you point out about Thompson. With corporate citizens like that who needs to worry about old-fashioned industrial espionage? Those starry-eyed bottomfeeders couldn’t give two hoots about their fellow citizens in any Western country. All they think of is money, the more and sooner the better, and to hell with anything else.

      Americans seem unable to grasp this basic concept, but that’s what undereducation, following slogans and slurping up political xenophobic nonsense does for a formerly great country. Screwed by business. Who’d have thunk it in the land of capitalist screed!

  • avatar
    Art Vandelay

    Also, I have no sympathy for companies like Apple that put all of their eggs in the China basket not to make a profit, but to make a larger profit. Companies like Samsung, LG, and other electronics makers have a diversified portfolio with respect to manufacturing. Yes the price of Apple Phones will likely go up. The others may too, but likely less so. So sorry Timmy, you should have thought of that before.

    If you cant afford American Labor (you can as evidenced by the pile of cash you are sitting on) then at least build it in South Korea or any other country that profitably produces electronics without operating in a manner contrary to our nation’s interest.

    And I also hope it brings pain to us as consumers. Why? Because we made this bed. We sold out our own middle class because we like cheap, disposable garbage from Wal Mart and now Amazon. Our choices have consequences and it is time we realize that simply outsourcing a pillaging of the environment and virtual slavery for employees to somewhere out of sight and out of mind doesn’t make it right. That goes for our “compassion” to illegals too. “Sure, you can stay, so long as you forego protections our workers get and only do the jobs we want you to do”.

    Shame on us for that and it is time to right these wrongs.

    • 0 avatar
      Hummer

      Honestly Americans spend a lot of money on useless novelties and nicknaks that are disposed of within a year. Id rather buy a quality product that lasts a long time than something cheaper of dubious quality. I do my best to put my money where my mouth is and try to buy American made (or at least 1st world made) clothes, furniture, and equipment at nearly every purchase.

      Buying something like a couch every 8-10 years is wasteful when you could buy a quality built piece of furniture and have it recovered and restuffed as needed.

      • 0 avatar
        Luke42

        I’d rather have a smartphone than a couch.

        Seriously.

        A couch is good for sitting on when I’m tired.

        I can use the phone to get a job, and then a couch.

        • 0 avatar
          Art Vandelay

          I just purchased an LG Q7+ for like 200 bucks. I mainly selected it over the likes of the Pixel 3A which performed better because of the true dedicated Hi-Fi DAC…I am on the road alot and like something that will push my high impedance headphones. Even if either of those options increased in price, they would still be quite affordable for your average smartphone buyer. I am not sure where they are made, but my last LG (a V20) was not Chinese made and as such would not get klobered by a tariff. So maybe you can’t swing a top tier flagship phone. Is that going to keep you from looking for a job? And that mid tier phone will outperform an older flagship. Heck you can get a smartphone for 100 bucks now that will get you a job. even if the price goes up, thats still affordable. Or just get an LG, Samsung, Sony, or any of the plethora of non Chinese assembled Smartphones which incidentally tend to be manufactured in their makers home country. Imagine that Apple.

    • 0 avatar
      Lou_BC

      “If you cant afford American Labor (you can as evidenced by the pile of cash you are sitting on)”

      Are you willing to pay more for “American” made products?

      Earlier it was mentioned that no one who agrees with climate change is willing to make sacrifices to fix it…… that ALSO applies to BUY American.

      Why does Wallmart exist?

      and why did virtually every “mom and pop” operation in the country fail?

      • 0 avatar
        ToddAtlasF1

        Wal-Mart sold American made goods until Hillary Clinton sat on their board and then China paid for Bill Clinton’s election. You probably didn’t really want to know why though.

        • 0 avatar
          Lou_BC

          @ToddAtlasF1 – that is an interesting and most likely irrelevant factoid. What next “Uranium One”?

          By the way, I don’t care much for her or her husband. She is the poster girl of corrupt politics. She is a huge reason why DJ Trump is now the orange clown in chief. It is telling when people felt a corrupt huckster was a superior choice for the office of President of the USA.

          • 0 avatar
            TheDumbGuy-formerly JoeBrick

            @BlueLou- Be careful just who you call an orange clown in chief. You have a much smaller audience, but you are providing beaucoups of laughs and much entertainment for those of us here. I can almost see your blue hair and your red bulbous nose.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            “Be careful just who you call an orange clown in chief.”

            Why?

          • 0 avatar
            dal20402

            He is certainly an orange clown, but given that members of his own national security team feel that it is necessary to reassure the public by telling them that none of the professionals listen to him, it’s not clear to me that he is “in chief” of anything.

        • 0 avatar
          bd2

          Talk about being delusional (the Walton family has long backed conservatives and so-called “conservative” economic policies).

          Otoh, Wendy Gramm was the head of the CFTC when Enron lobbied to be exempt from regulations and later served on Enron’s Board.

          And her husband, Phil, was the one responsible for something called the “Enron Loophole” (in addition for much of the legislation which laid the groundwork for the Great Recession).

        • 0 avatar
          Luke42

          @ToddAtlasF1:
          You should read up on the actual corporate history of Wal-Mart.

          Their “everyday low prices” comes from squeezing their suppliers.

          They’ll coach their suppliers on how to cut costs, including how to outsource to low-cost international factories.

          Many brands have been cheapened and destroyed by this practice, but the allure of volume and market share is there. Remember that making the stock price go up is the primary task for a lot of companies, because of the way CEO pay is structured (and deliberately so).

          Sam Walton’s legacy of constantly leveraging Wal-Mart’s size to cut costs and squeeze suppliers is enough to explain Wal-Mart’s propensity for carrying foreign-made goods. Wal-Mart does this because they’re very skilled at using their size to bend markets in their favor.

          No Clinton conspiracy theory is necessary, or sufficient, to explain how Wal-Mart does business.

          • 0 avatar
            schmitt trigger

            Luke42, you are correct.

            I have an acquaintance, which used to have a plastic-injection facility, which used to make seasonal plastic trinkets for Walmart for many years.

            They pushed price down relentlessly, he compared Walmart to the pimp who continuously smacks his wh***s for more money, until he finally said enough.

            Now, those trinkets are made in China, and his shops shut down.
            25 jobs lost in an economically depressed area of Texas.

  • avatar
    jkross22

    Tariffs are a bad idea as it’s a tax on goods. China is paying for the tariffs in the way that Mexico is paying for the wall.

    Is the ‘badness’ of tariffs enough to get the Chinese to stop currency manipulation, IP theft and the myriad of other problems we have with them? I dunno.

    At least let’s not pretend or lie to ourselves about who’s getting chewed up with this – the avg American and the avg Chinese.

    • 0 avatar
      Lou_BC

      @jkross22 – I agree but since China is a Totalitarian regime, they don’t give a sh!t about harm to their public. They will weather out the storm and send out the military if need be i.e. Tiananmen Square.
      China knows that politicians in the USA are elected. If life gets too hard for the common man, they will eventually blame those in elected office. We’ve already seen DJ Trump delay tariffs on China due to the potential of a recession. China will ride out the orange clown’s 3 ring circus in hope of a more consistent opponent.

      • 0 avatar
        ToddAtlasF1

        Don’t you wish we had totalitarian regimes in the US and Canada so we could enact the changes you want and get rid of the pesky freedoms you’re so fearful of? Trump is the first North American politician to look after his people in decades. You’re your own worst enemy because you can’t see the illogical knots you tie yourself into trying to keep believing that he’s bad.

        • 0 avatar
          Lou_BC

          @ToddAtlasF1 –

          Please explain what you feel are “illogical knots” and please cite your sources and references. I curious as to what you base your ideas and thoughts upon.

          I fully favour thorough observation, measurement,and the formulation, testing, and modification of one’s ideas.

          • 0 avatar
            ToddAtlasF1

            You’re so dull-witted that you don’t know that Nazi was short for National Socialist and you’re discrediting your side of the argument every time you tap your keyboard. I wish I had so much faith in my championship debating record that I thought I could elevate you above the sentience of a houseplant, but I don’t. Search for my posts over the past 72 hours if you want to see me spell out the logical incongruities of the anti-Trump death cult. You probably can’t figure out how to do that, so why should I bother trying to teach a Labrador how to reason?

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            @ToddAtlasF1 – LOL

            Name calling is always much easier than the burden of proof.

        • 0 avatar
          bd2

          Says something about you when it’s Drumpf who is a wannabe tin-pot dictator who has weakened/attacked every major democratic institution in this country.

      • 0 avatar
        TheDumbGuy-formerly JoeBrick

        China just announced a 25% tariff on American cars. China will have a very long wait- until 2025.

    • 0 avatar
      highdesertcat

      “Tariffs are a bad idea as it’s a tax on goods.”

      Sure it is a bad idea. But what are you going to do when your trading partner imposes tariffs first on goods you make that they import into their country?

      Turn the other cheek and be someone’s buttboy?

      The fair and equitable thing to do is free trade, no tariffs.

      The flip side is equal tariffs on the goods we import into America from our trading partners who impose tariffs on American-made goods imported into their country.

      Thank you, President Trump, for doing something about all the screwing the US has had to endure for decades from its trading partners who levied tariffs on American-made goods.

      Trump really is the chosen one. Finally, a President who’s not afraid to tackle the thorny, painful issues. I hope he rips them a new one.

      The rest of the world really can’t continue to treat America the way they did during the last administration.

      • 0 avatar
        Lou_BC

        “Trump really is the chosen one.”

        By 46.1 percent.

        • 0 avatar
          highdesertcat

          Don’t matter. He’s in charge. He’s the boss. He calls the shots. He is the President.

          That must drive the ‘crats plum out of their mind. Hence all the TDS.

          I didn’t vote for him but I sure am glad he got elected. Worked out real good for me, and millions of others.

          Divine intervention.

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            “Divine intervention.”

            LOL.

            You’d think that the numbers would have been higher if divinity was involved!

          • 0 avatar
            highdesertcat

            Praise Allah! Trump is our President.

            Who cares about numbers? The guy is President. He da man!

          • 0 avatar
            Lou_BC

            @highdesertcat – “Praise Allah! Trump is our President.”

            Rather ironic that you say that since the God of the Jews is also the God of Christians and the God of Muslims.
            All three share the same Abrahamic roots in that order.

        • 0 avatar
          TheDumbGuy-formerly JoeBrick

          Boo hoo. Thanks to the Founding Fathers. They really saved our bacon this time from a hag worse than Death.

  • avatar
    Art Vandelay

    yes @Lou, I am absolutely willing to pay more for American goods as well as goods made in other Countries that respect their citizen’s liberties and don’t work to undermine us (Japan, Most of Europe, South Korea, Taiwan, Australia, etc). I put my money where my mouth is and grossly overpaid for a Texas Built Mac Pro some time ago because of that (not that most of that was cost associated with US manufacture…most was associated with Apple because they can costs). I no longer have that option. I don’t buy flagship smartphones, but if someone made one here I would. I spent a ton of cash on a couple stereo systems that actually sound good (hint…it isn’t chinese crap that will be landfill fodder in 2 years).

    This post is being typed on a US made, IBM Model F keyboard that I overpaid for BUT has been happily clicking away since 1982 while tens of craptastic Chinese Rubber dome keyboards owned before will be rotting in landfills long after my bones have rotted away. Sometimes I swap it out for a “newer” model M from 1992 when I need a modern keyboard layout. Still clacking away after 27 years like day 1. I own a Chinese projector in my theater. It is developing “personality”. I would love to replace it with a US one, but I don’t know if such an animal exists so I will pay more for likely one from South Korea.

    There has been alot of talk on these forums the past few days of people’s “freedom” to buy big thirsty v8’s being limited. Well my freedom to buy a freaking television made in my own country has been eliminated.

    Why does WalMart Exist? Well a poster yesterday referred to drivers of turbo 4’s being unwashed masses. Truth be told, I don’t know what those masses drive, but they are parked at WalMart. People who don’t care one iota about quality or how many people got screwed along the supply chain need somewhere to shop. That’s why they exist. And now if you don’t care about the quality of your food or what’s in it you can grab groceries there. But soon enough Amazon will bring it all to your door only maybe the food will be a little better since they got Whole Foods…at least I can get Mozzarella di’ Buffala there, which again, I will pay for.

    Incidentally I get most of my Vegetables from a local farmers market on the weekends now. I may pay more, but barely and I can drive out to where it is grown should I desire.

    And you are smoking crack if you think every “mom and pop” has failed. When you need an electrician, carpenter, mechanic, welder, plumber, or any number of tradesmen do you call a local one or does some international conglomerate show up to fix your leaky toilet. But we can and should do better.

    And with respect to the Apple example, I don’t even have to pay more for competitive products made somewhere else…they are less in many cases. And like I said, the day they make one here is the day I buy one.

    Well I am off to crank up some good old American Hair Metal (Probably Van Halen) on my not American but not Chinese Pioneer from 1979. The speakers are American made ‘Vegas though (my loud set up lol). Yes, were I to buy new, which eventually I will I would shell out for McIntosh, USA made and among the best… and most expensive. It won’t be landfill fodder in a couple of years either though.

    • 0 avatar
      ToddAtlasF1

      Do you honestly think Amazon is better for your local economy than Wal-Mart? I think we have plenty of common ground on important issues, but Amazon is only acceptable because Jeff Bezos is a friend of the media and Wal-Mart is only the enemy because Warren Buffet owns Dollar stores that shaft poor people who can’t figure out unit prices. Of course Wal-Mart also ate the lunches of retailers who hired Ivy League MBAs while promoting everyone from within based on whether or not they would show up for work and not steal.

      • 0 avatar
        highdesertcat

        I can tell you that I live MY life in Walmart fashion and I do a lot of buying from Amazon, Newegg, Rakuten, Fry’s, etc.

        Why do I do this?

        Convenience, availability, no sales tax, free shipping in many cases, and they always have what I want or am looking for.

        Many of my local retailers shop at Walmart as well. A couple of days ago I caught my friend who owns a Chinese Buffet restaurant buying up all of Walmart’s Van’s Pork Egg Rolls, for resale.

        Oh, and how about the Bakery maven who buys tons of donuts and pastries, burritos and sandwiches there every work day for her Roach Coach (food truck) to take around to work sites.

        Yeah, I’d say the Walmart Supercenter has been good for my local community and economy. Buy low. Sell high.

      • 0 avatar
        TheDumbGuy-formerly JoeBrick

        Which dollar stores does Warren Buffett/Berkshire Hathaway own ? I checked Dollar Tree/Family Dollar and Dollar General, and he does not own either of them. America wants to know. Please.
        P.S.- I buy used, at thrift stores/yard sales before buying Chinese made goods. My job went to China over 10 years ago, but I was not invited to go along with it. LOL I would not have gone there anyway.

        • 0 avatar
          ToddAtlasF1

          https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2011-08-15/berkshire-adds-dollar-general-stake-as-buffett-builds-retailer-investments

          It’s probably a coincidence that previously-invisible pipelines became threats to dead Indians to protect Buffet’s railroads in the same time frame that Amazon-shoppers started trying to prevent the working poor from getting a good deal on cereal and toilet paper. Dance monkeys, dance!

          • 0 avatar
            TheDumbGuy-formerly JoeBrick

            That was in 2011. But no longer. And you are correct as to WHY the pipeline is so evil-it has more to do with Buffet’s ownership of BNSF railroad (100%) than the ghosts…er…Poltergeists of any dead Indians.

          • 0 avatar
            ToddAtlasF1

            When did the WalMart is evil narrative start? It wasn’t when Hillary was on their Board of Directors.

          • 0 avatar
            Luke42

            The Wal-Mart is evil narrative started when the public realized that Wal-Mart squeezes ita emolloyees th same way it squeezes any other supplier.

            An astonishing number of people employed at Wal-Mart are on welfare of various kinds, because Wal-Mart just doesn’t pay well enough.

            A Clinton conspiracy theory isn’t necessary, or sufficient, to explain Wal-Mart’s behavior here. Wal-Mart just very skilled at using their market power to win a low-margin / high-volume business by traditional business standards (not Stakeholder Management standards).

            If you want a conspiracy theory, the Wal-Mart Is Evil narrative probably got started as an attempt to embarrass Wal-Mart into allowing their employees to unionize.

            I mostly shop at Meijer, which amounts to a unionized Midwestern Wal-Mart. The unionized employees there treat me pretty well, and their prices are pretty good. My metro area has three Wal-Marts, and two Meijers — but gaging which one is more successful depends on what you value, I guess.

      • 0 avatar
        dal20402

        I live in Seattle, so, yes, Amazon is better for *my* local economy than Wal-Mart. XD

    • 0 avatar
      Lou_BC

      @Art Vandelay – mad props for your “buy American” stance.

      I was referring to “mom and pop” retail stores not small business run by local skilled tradesmen.

    • 0 avatar
      James Charles

      Art,
      You might be willing go pay more for US made goods, but over 50% of Americans can’t afford US made goods.

      For Americans to afford US made goods you need to reduce the US standard of living similar to China or Mexico.

      Why can’t intelligent people see this?

      • 0 avatar
        Art Vandelay

        I am pretty far from the 1 percent @BAFO. Why don’t you just throw up a source to back up your 50 percent claim. I’ll wait. You can’t because the mods won’t let you post a picture of your A$$ which is where you are getting this.

        Besides, I get so much hate for my politics that frankly I no longer care. I write a giant check every 15th of April and spend another year not worrying about those people who cry out that I need to do more all the while taking and taking and doing nothing but complaining.

  • avatar
    PandaBear

    My local skilled tradesmen want to make $10k off 5 man days of work remodeling my kitchen in labor cost. The mom and pop are doing the same when Walmart is not.

    Let’s be honest here, things can be made in the US and sell in Walmart (i.e. your shampoo and soap are likely made in USA), but the mom and pop are just not efficient selling the same thing with too much overhead. Their lost have nothing to do with Chinese manufacturing.

    Why making them in China instead of US? The same reason why they make them in Vietnam now instead of China (because of labor cost and standard of living). Stop lying to yourself, we are too expensive (tax, standard of living, labor population density, regulation, lawsuit, environmental etc). These jobs will either go to Vietnam / Cambodia / Burma / Pakistan or they will be automated and nobody gets hired if they are made in US again.

    About Fentanyl: before blaming China, Who was prescribing it to the patient? Who was marketing them to the doctors? They are not Chinese for sure. Our corrupted capitalistic medical system does it, it kills our patients, not the Chinese.

    • 0 avatar
      Lou_BC

      @PandaBear – a breath of fresh air. Agreed.

    • 0 avatar
      James Charles

      Panda,
      Good comment.

      Many must realise the Hillbilly Heroin epidemic the US had was created by large US multinationals, not China or Mexico. My step brother in NJ is an addict ….. at 65 years of age all caused by US drug companies and doctors getting a kickback on being dealers.

      • 0 avatar
        TheDumbGuy-formerly JoeBrick

        @JamieCharles- Your step-brother is not responsible for his own addiction ? BS. Double BS. Everyone is responsible for their own actions, and the consequences of their own actions. To believe otherwise is just liberal FOOLishness- which is responsible for many of the ills affecting our society at this time, and the death of Western Civilization.
        Yeah, I know- that is probably too heavy for you, you being a snowflake…er…sensitive, sympathetic human being I mean, but it is true.

        • 0 avatar
          James Charles

          TheDumbGuy,
          Then you are in agreeance that China is not the issue in the US with the opioid epidemic.

          Have you not read how it was a couple of major US pharma companies that created the epidemic for their own profit.

          Many will do as the doctor prescribes. If a drug company says its safe to have a certain dosage to hook people on their product, then little blame can be directed at the users.

          The users do have a degree of responibilities, but the drug companies and doctors should cover all costs, not the taxpayer, or blame another country.

          • 0 avatar
            TheDumbGuy-formerly JoeBrick

            @JamesCHarles- “Then you are in agreeance that China is not the issue in the US with the opioid epidemic.”
            You are putting words in my mouth. I said nothing of the sort.
            If you want my opinion, we should de-criminalize drug possession but execute ANYONE who sells ANY AMOUNT of drugs. Let the bleeding hearts cry about it. And we should burn the poppy fields worldwide. See what THAT does to the opiiod crisis. Let the potheads grow their own in their back yards but DON’T EVER SELL IT. My other views on crime- execute murderers and rapists within 6 months of conviction. EVERY TIME.
            Any other questions ?

        • 0 avatar
          bd2

          Don’t speak on something on which you know little about.

          Big Pharma MISLED doctors on the potency/addictiveness of the opioids, so physicians didn’t have the correct info. from which to proscribe doses (such as how much to give and for how long to wean patients off the drug w/o increased risk of addiction).

          They also incentivized doctors to use the (much more highly addicted opioids) in lieu of other cheaper and effective (and less addictive) pain-killers.

          And that’s on top of flooding the market w/ pills at the “pill mills” (Florida, being a prime source due to lax regulations).

        • 0 avatar
          HotPotato

          Ask yourself why the opioid crisis only exists in one country: the one where salesmen—although in this case actually it was mostly sexy young saleswomen—are allowed to “incentivize” doctors to prescribe certain drugs.

    • 0 avatar
      Lorenzo

      Mom and pop retail stores didn’t all go out of business, but their biggest expense is paying for all the regulatory requirements. In many states, hiring an extra worker to cut mom and pop’s hours from 80 a week to 60 a week costs them half their income instead of 1/4.

      Tax withholding, unemployment, liability, and other insurance, matching SS and medicare, providing holidays and vacation – none of which mom and pop get themselves as self-employed – makes it difficult to stay in business.

  • avatar
    conundrum

    Sure, I come to TTAC to read dunderheads opining on politics with about as much depth as 10 year-olds can bring to bear. What a treat. If I want to read what the raving loonies think, I go to political websites, but this place seems to be a secondary safe harbor for complete nonsense uttered with conviction.

    Those who think the US has the highest standard of living in the world can’t even perform a basic Google search. Not even in the top 10.

    The world doesn’t owe the US a living, nor fealty and obeisance. Nor does it need to bow to the Chinese acting like rude a**holes the way they treat my country. You two were meant for each other.

    https://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2019/08/21/what-globalism-did-was-to-transfer-the-us-economy-to-china/

    • 0 avatar
      James Charles

      conundrum,
      You are correct. Australia has the wealthiest both average and median.

      The US is a flawed democracy, with many true democracies other than the US.

      The US is not a free economy, for economic freedom it sits around 20th. There are only 6 free economies globally. Ireland, NZ, Singapore, the Swiss, Australia and Hong Kong.

      Many in the US drink a lot of KoolAid.

      • 0 avatar
        ToddAtlasF1

        Do you have news there? Hong Kong has a few minutes left on any list. Do you mean the Ireland that wants one world government in spite of not being able to achieve one Ireland? You might be a propaganda-swallowing puppet.

        I used to have a few Australian friends. I lost track of them when they scattered to the far corners of the earth escaping Australian provincialism. At best Australian wealth is like Norwegian wealth or San Franciscan wealth. It feels good to read a table, but generation X in the US had a higher standard of living when we were in college than you can achieve with a hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year in your left wing dystopias.

      • 0 avatar
        TheDumbGuy-formerly JoeBrick

        Yes, We invented Kool-aid.
        The United States of America is not and has never been a democracy. It is a representative republic. You can look up the differences.
        And actually, although we have never demanded it, many countries in the world DO owe us a debt of gratitude for saving their bacon during World War II. The same could be said for Great Britain and Russia. They also saved us from German world domination, at great expense in blood and treasure. The U.S. never kept the lands that it captured in the war, unlike most other countries. The world DOES owe us- but we would never ask for it to be repaid, unless some other enemy tries to take over the world like Germany did, and they can help stop it. Who comes to their aid whenever a natural disaster happens anywhere in the world ? The U.S. does, with our military and our food and money. Also, we defend Europe, Japan, and South Korea. You are welcome.

        • 0 avatar
          James Charles

          TheDumbGuy,
          The World owes the US NOTHING.

          Its not as if the US through gallantry saved the world, because it didn’t.

          The US PROFITED immensely from WWII, as did Australia, Canada and NZ.

          The US made billions in supplying weapons, Lend Lease and the financing of rebuilding nations. These countries HAD to pay off their debts to the US.

          Its odd that once most of the debts were paid off these countries advanced economically and now are equal to or in front of the US in many metrics.

          Look at how many men and women fought and lost their lives compared to US losses and you will see where much gratitude should be placed.

          The US, Australia, Canada and NZ made lots from WWII, because we were least affected and provided much of the materiel for war.

          • 0 avatar
            TheDumbGuy-formerly JoeBrick

            I am glad that your opinion is not the majority opinion. I understand that you are an Australian. It seems to me that Australia is in a vulnerable position in the event of a world war. Japan would have invaded Australia if not for the U.S. and Great Britain. Did you even know that ? And no doubt China has her eyes on Australia also, for its strategic location between the Middle East oil fields and the China mainland. Will Great Britain come to your aid in time if it is needed ? Good luck with that. Or will you suddenly change your opinion about America ? We shall see, Mate.

          • 0 avatar
            James Charles

            TheDumbGuy,
            Actually born Long Island NY, did school in Sth Jersey.

            As for your comment regarding Australia yes, Australia is grateful for US assistance as the Australian military was tied up in Europe and the Middle East helping the so called leading military world power, UK.

            But Australia paid for it, it wasn’t free. Also it was in the US interest to slow down the expansion of the Japanese, especially after the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor. So, the US and Australia had a common adversary. It wasn’t as if the US weren’t already fighting the Japanese and ran to assist Australia.

            Oh, by the way, Australia with its 7 million people had the 4th largest Air Force in the World.

          • 0 avatar
            ajla

            “Actually born Long Island NY, did school in Sth Jersey.”
            _________

            “Jamal Charles” is ***definitely*** not the banned commenter “Big-Al-from-Oz” you guys. He is just some other guy born in Long Island, raised in South Jersey that now lives in Australia and likes to talk about the chicken tax and free trade.

            thetruthaboutcars.com/2018/03/whats-standing-citroen-peugeot-possibly-tariff/#comment-9482784

            thetruthaboutcars.com/2017/07/production-2018-mercedes-benz-x-class-pickup-truck-revealed-priced-e37294/#comment-9325086

            thetruthaboutcars.com/2018/11/volkswagen-and-ford-move-closer-to-an-agreement-on-autonomy-electrification-assembly/#comment-9643062

            Being a liar is unbecoming. At least have the courage to admit who you are. The TTAC mods aren’t going to care unless you return to making personal attacks against other users.

          • 0 avatar
            James Charles

            ajla,
            So why do you want to discredit someone?

            Power? Principle?

            ajla, How many US citizens have immigrated to Australia?

            How many are named Jim?

            How many people move between countries now?

            How many are politically at the centre or center?

            How many Canadians, NZ’ers, Irish, British, Americans, Europeans, etc read English sites.

            Big call. Are you American? If you are are you someone else?

            My comments are mine and I will stand by my paradigms as they are researched, verified, tested, etc as well as I can produce.

            It might erk you that there are people, centerists will similar views.

            How uncommon.

          • 0 avatar
            ajla

            “So why do you want to discredit someone?

            Power? Principle?”

            Yes, it is principle. You are Big-Al-From-Oz.

            If you are too afraid to admit who you are, even though everyone knows, then go on and continue with your deception and feigned ignorance, you’ll be easy enough to ignore in the future. However, I don’t see how you can present yourself as some sort of international policy moralist when you can’t even be honest on a car website.

        • 0 avatar
          Roader

          The same can be said for Australia, which would undoubtedly be speaking Japanese as a second language had the US not involved itself in the Pacific theater. The fall of nearby Singapore was Britain’s greatest defeat ever. Singapore ain’t that much further.

          • 0 avatar
            James Charles

            Roader,
            Japanese was a very popular language to learn in Australia in the 80s and 90s. Now its Chinese, Mandarin, not Cantonese.

            As for Japan ruling Australia, maybe for a short while, but as history shows autocratic and authoritarian governments don’t last.

            Even if the Nazis won WWII they would not be in government now now, like the USSR ceases to exist, Mussolini, the Greek and Spanish dictators.

            Freedom is not a US centric proposition, its been around since man became political.

            The US doesn’t own freedom, many used to aspire to a US lifestyle, but now I think more see the EU sense of freedom as a fairer system. The US is still highly regarded, but like all things American at the moment its lost favour.

            I wonder why?

          • 0 avatar
            Roader

            “As for Japan ruling Australia, maybe for a short while, but as history shows autocratic and authoritarian governments don’t last.”

            So…Emperor Xi is going down soon? The autocratic and authoritarian People’s Republic of China has been with us for 70 years. The autocratic and authoritarian Union of Soviet Socialist Republics lasted for a bit more than 70 years; the autocratic and authoritarian Warsaw Pact countries much less.

            Are you predicting that the PRC will collapse soon?

          • 0 avatar
            James Charles

            Roader,
            Do you know how far Singapore is from Sydney or Brisbane? Its not nearby, no closer than Moscow is to NYC. A 9 hour hour flight.

            Singapore was not a great loss to the British as it was a Colonial outpost and apart of Malaysia. Singapore gained independence from Malaysia in the 60s.

            We used to deploy to Penang every year in the early 90s and we were warned back then of insurgents near the Thai border. Insurgents used to take pot shots at the base.

            Anyway, the British durng WWII concentrated most all war assets on the Germans, not SE Asia. The British ordered most of the Australian military in the European Theatre, this left little defence in the Pacific and SE Asia. When the Japanese moved down through Siam (Thailand) and into the Malaysia towards Singapore, Australia requested its forces be moved back home. The British disallowed this as the British were prepared to see Australia be lost over the British Isles.

            Luckily the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor as the US had no interest in the War other than selling weapons.

            The Japanese made it as far as New Guinea and Australia repelled the Japanese to the north of the island. The US assisted and McAarthur started from the north of New Guinea moving westward through Indonesia, which at that time the Dutch were over run by the Germans in Europe and couldn’t defend Indonesia. McArthur moved on to the Phillipines.

            My step father, who died 6 years ago was a US Army CO of a Medical Unit and went with McArthur from New Guinea to the Phillipines.

            Because the British didn’t allow Australia to defend itself the strong US-Australia alliance was created. That’s how it happened.

            Oh, I’ve been in the military myself for nearly 30 years now and still serve.

          • 0 avatar
            Roader

            “Do you know how far Singapore is from Sydney or Brisbane?”

            Singapore is about 2000 miles from Darwin, or about 2/3s the distance of Tokyo-to-Singapore.

            As you’ll recall, Japan bombed Darwin; it was largest single attack ever mounted by a foreign power on Australia. Bombing Darwin was only one of the 100 Japanese attacks on Australia.

        • 0 avatar
          bd2

          “The U.S. never kept the lands that it captured in the war, unlike most other countries.”

          Uhh, Puerto Rico, the Philippines, Guam, Marshall Islands, etc. would like to differ w/ that statement, as well as the American Southwest, Texas, California and Nevada.

          And even the independence of Cuba was only approved w/ numerous onerous conditions which served to benefit US interests (gave the US the right to intervene militarily in Cuba, prohibited the Cuban govt. from signing treaties w/ other nations, established a permanent American naval base at Guantanamo, etc.).

          And then there are all the wars w/ the indigenous American tribes (the US govt. pretty reneged on every treaty made w/ the native peoples).

          As for South Korea, they pay for a big chunk of the cost of housing US forces (cost that the US govt. would have to pay anyways to house elsewhere – actually would cost more $$) and US troops live in much better quarters in SK than here in the US, including luxury villas adjoining a golf course for top brass (paid for by SK).

          Teddy Roosvelt, via the “Gentlemen’s Agreement” w/ Japan basically signed off on the Japanese takeover of the Korean peninsula in exchange for Japan recognizing America’s interest in the Philippines.

          Think you need to brush up on your history and not just from textbooks approved by the Texas legislature.

          Putin Russia is a defacto totalitarian state – so really not much has changed in Russia.

      • 0 avatar
        Roader

        “You are correct. Australia has the wealthiest both average and median.”

        By what measure? The US has a per-capita GDP (purchasing power parity) of US$62,606, vs. Australia’s US$52,373.

        • 0 avatar
          ToddAtlasF1

          Feelings defeat facts for SJWs like BAFO.

        • 0 avatar
          James Charles

          Roader,
          How difficult is it for your types to use Google?

          Use Google, then present a link from a “right wing” source, ie, IMF, reputable finance/banking organisation etc to present your arguments.

          It seems many of you right wingers have much opinion with little proof other than a pile of subjective/emotional personal trash.

          Prove me wrong.

          • 0 avatar
            Roader

            James Charles,
            How difficult is it for your types to use Google?

            Use Google, then present a link from any source i.e., IMF, reputable finance/banking organization, etc. to present your arguments.

            It seems many of you left wingers have much opinion with little proof other than a pile of subjective/emotional personal trash.

            The fact is that the US has a per-capita GDP (purchasing power parity) of US$62,606, vs. Australia’s US$52,373.

            These are the IMF’s numbers.

            Prove me wrong.

          • 0 avatar
            James Charles

            Roader,
            Did you know GDP was created by the EEC in 1972 as a measure of TRADABLE goods.

            It doesn’t measure inequality, taxation or efficiency of money usage.

            Scandanavian countries have a higher GDP than the US, but up to 60% is taxation. Out of that taxation goods and services are provided.

            Health and insurances are apart of GDP. In 2017 the health costs per person in the US was over $12k, second was Australia at $6k. Deduct this from your GDP. Then deduct the insurance costs (all US insurance costs), your taxes like $2k per year School taxes etc and I think you’ll find that the US real costs of living vs GDP drops.

            This doesn’t take into account all the money moving through major banks and finance, ie Wall St, that never sees the light of day.

            Now remember the US dollar is the global reserve currency, which adds, believe it or not 10-15% to the value of the USD.

            Starting to see the picture? I don’t dispute the US might have a higher GDP. But in many cases its like comparing two workers earning the or similar pay. Why is it one sometimes appears to have more than the other?

            GDP is only good for a rough comparison and was designed for use in the EEC where countries had similar governments with similar regulations, levels of taxation across the board on the same items.

            No, look at HDI. Austrlaia is 3rd. This measures wealth, health, education, etc, in other words standard of living.

          • 0 avatar
            TheDumbGuy-formerly JoeBrick

            @JimCharles- “Japanese was a very popular language to learn in Australia in the 80s and 90s. Now its Chinese,…
            I wonder why?”
            Maybe because the Australians foolishly gave up their guns a few years ago and you know who your new masters will be one day. That is something that we will never do here. Or learn Chinese. LOL

          • 0 avatar
            James Charles

            DumbGuy,
            Australians gave up their guns? WTF? There is a gun shop around the corner from me.

            Also your level of discussion has dropped (I can’t believe it was possible).

            What has gun ownership got to do with learning Chinese or Japanese. I now can see your logic supporting extreme right wing views. Lack of education and comprehension.

            Have a nice day and keep on taking drugs or whatever to generate the comments you have today.

            Disconnected or what mate!

          • 0 avatar
            Roader

            James, GDP was created in the 1930s as a way of measuring a county’s economic performance. GDP (PPP) accounts for the cost of living. It’s been the standard for all countries since before the end of WWII. Well, except for Bhutan, who’s king in 1972 declared his aim is not to increase GDP, but GNH — “gross national happiness.”

            Which is similar to your HDI metric. It’s subjective and highly dependent on demographics. You say you live in Australia, which is small, really, really white country. In contrast the United States is a large, very ethnically and racially diverse country. Two very different places. Your HDI index favors small, very homogeneous white or asian countries, and even then the US is just edged out of being in the top ten.

            It’s easy to get along–it’s easy to agree to share things and take care of each other–when everyone looks, talks, and pretty much thinks exactly the same. In comparison to the United States, that’s Australia and all of Northern Europe. And, I might add, boring. Give me the racially and ethnically diverse US any day.

      • 0 avatar
        Lorenzo

        The United States is a republic, not a democracy. There are no true democracies in the world, just various forms of representative government, monarchies with representative self-governing dominions, and various forms of tyranny masquerading as representative government.

    • 0 avatar
      TheDumbGuy-formerly JoeBrick

      @Commundrum- ” I come to TTAC to read dunderheads opining on politics with about as much depth as 10 year-olds can bring to bear.”
      You make the gross mistake of assuming that someone who disagrees with you must be stupid. This is a common flaw on both sides of the communist/non-communist divide, but you leftists all have one thing in common. You are smug to the point of extreme arrogance. Assuming that everyone should quietly accept your point of view without any right to rebut your arguments. This is true in entertainment such as the movies, newspapers- one reason that newspapers are dying- the TV networks, where only one view is ever shown, colleges, where non-leftists are not even allowed to speak, and even so-called Public television, which is as left-wing as it can be. Only AM radio has any conservative or non-communist content. AM radio was “allowed” to harbor non-communists only because it was a dead medium before Rush Limbaugh brought it back to life. The corporations let Limbaugh onto AM radio because no one listened to it. Its’ audience was so small that they couldn’t care less who got on it, or what they said. So keep your smug attitude. It is now kind of amusing.

  • avatar
    PandaBear

    Let’s all be honest here. Trump doesn’t want a deal, he just want it to drag on until everyone freaks out and move the factories out of China. Chinese see it of course, so they are now retaliating just the same.

    We’ll have a cold war on trade, and we’ll have a recession (inverted yield curve), China will wait Trump out, and both sides will pay more for everything. The only winners are Vietnam, Cambodia, Taiwan, Burma, and Pakistan.

    • 0 avatar
      Lou_BC

      @PandaBear – another valid point. Thanks. i was getting lonely.

    • 0 avatar
      James Charles

      Panda,
      The US didn’t levy the 25% tariff on our aluminium, our aluminium exports to the US increased nearly 400% over the past 12 months.

      Agri is another area Australia has picked up on with China, as with iron ore (Brazil and failing tailing dams) with China investing more in infrastructure in lieu of the US induced trade war.

      Apparently Australia is the top beneficiary of the US – China trade war. But the slow down globally by the trade war is impacting all.

  • avatar
    Roader

    “We’ll have a cold war on trade, and we’ll have a recession (inverted yield curve), China will wait Trump out…”

    Maybe, maybe not. Recessions typically trail inverted yield curves by 18 months (when they do occur) which gives Trump a second term. Emperor Xi of course doesn’t have to worry about elections but Trump may well have another five years to grind Xi down. And while Xi doesn’t have to worry about elections, he does have to worry about domestic unrest. Chinese dynasties don’t last forever. In fact, many where very short-lived, <50 years. The CCP is on its 70th year.

  • avatar
    Lou_BC

    @Roader – if the math is correct and a recession hits in DJ Trump’s second term one could view that as much more damaging for those pushing “his” political agenda. If DJ Trump loses in 2020 a Democrat would take the blame for the recession.
    That is how politics get played out. Don’t accept blame but make damned sure you blame the other side!

    • 0 avatar
      Roader

      @Lou_BC, I don’t care. Having Trump in charge of the federal executive branch–even during a recession–is far preferable to having Elizabeth Warren in charge.

      • 0 avatar
        Lou_BC

        “I don’t care”

        My comment was an observation of how politics operate.

        Tuesday, November 3, 2020 may come interminably slow or blindingly fast depending upon political affiliation or what goes well or badly in the interim.

      • 0 avatar
        bd2

        Warren would actually do something for the middle and working classes.

        Actually, make that TRY to do something…

        As the big corporations and top 0.5% would do everything in their power to stop her.

  • avatar
    hamtrelvis

    The TPP was designed to hem in China, but stable genius killed TPP. So sad that the U.S. has so many stupid voters.

    • 0 avatar

      Amen to that. Too many old, straight, white men who are sad to see their reign coming to an end and want to burn everything down.

      • 0 avatar
        Best_Ever

        I love it. People like you say the same stupid crap all the time. Remember smart guy, those people have children who have had children who will have children who ALL have the same beliefs and political outlook. So no, you may want it to end but constant baby crying wont make it go away. Sorry the new generations cant innovate, but its hard when you dont have the intelligence. Try harder.

        • 0 avatar
          dal20402

          Right, every child grows up to have the same political beliefs as their parents.

          In other news, several women got thrown in jail today for showing ankle flesh.

        • 0 avatar
          Lou_BC

          @ Best_Ever – education is one of the biggest threats to extremes of political ideology. As one’s intellect and level of education climbs, that shifts them to a more moderate centrist view point that is open to various opinions.

          Elections are won or lost based upon how many people show up to vote and whether those in the moderate center shift slightly left or slightly right.

      • 0 avatar
        TheDumbGuy

        @Carguy666- “Amen to that. Too many old, straight, white men who are sad to see their reign coming to an end and want to burn everything down.”
        What are you implying ? The ‘reign’ of the straight white men came about because they built everything that is worth anything. Look at Africa. Nothing good has ever come out of Africa and everything in Africa that is any good was built by white men. And every black person whose ancestors were removed from Africa to the Western hemisphere should thank God that they do not live in Africa. And what was that comment about straight men. Straight men simply are men who do not suffer from one particular form of mental illness. P.S.- If you are fortunate, you will be old someday too. Cheers !

        • 0 avatar
          Best_Ever

          Your FACTS are racist sir! They must be purged at once! Now, if you’ll excuse me, I must seek a safe space so I can cry like a newborn for an hour(or in the case of the resident orange man bad babies, around 5 more years).

      • 0 avatar
        bd2

        The hilarious thing is they want to harken back to “Pax Americana” – the 1950s and 1960s which was the high-point of the American (white) middle class.

        But that was the period of American history when the US was most like a Northern European “socialist” nation (Sweden, Denmark, etc.).

        90+% top margin tax rate, heavily subsidized higher education and home ownership (via GI Bill), massive infrastructure projects (interstate highway system, etc.) and using the tax proceeds to pay down the massive WWII debt (speaking of which, the US debt has now risen to the level it was during WII).

  • avatar

    Trump is a moron and a POS. He’s hellbent on destroying the environment, economy, diversity, and middle class all so his golfing buddies can have a few million more bucks in their accounts.

    So many dimwits on this site.

    • 0 avatar
      Best_Ever

      Look in the mirror, take a video of yourself and play it back. You’d look right at home in romper room.

    • 0 avatar
      TheDumbGuy

      @Carguy666- “Trump is a moron and a POS. He’s hellbent on destroying the environment, economy, diversity, and middle class all so his golfing buddies can have a few million more bucks in their accounts.
      So many dimwits on this site.”

      Too many people on this site who cannot simply disagree without resorting to insulting behavior like calling their opponents names. When you do so, you only show that your arguments lack enough merit and logic to win someone over. And you display your immaturity and the inadequacy of your thought processes. You also show a foolish lack of respect for your betters, and President Trump is definitely your better. Note that I have not called you any names such as libtard, or f#cktard. Far be it from me to do that.

      • 0 avatar
        Lou_BC

        @TheDumbGuy – “Too many people on this site who cannot simply disagree without resorting to insulting behavior like calling their opponents names.”

        I don’t recall you firing off that sort of post to Wee ToddAtlas…

  • avatar
    James Charles

    The Chinese have nutted Trump out and can play him like a violin.

    They got the reaction they wanted from Trump with the latest episode of Trump’s reality Trade War.

    Trump is going to up tariffs. Now I’d bet by Monday Trump flip flops on this as his reality economists and real economists explain its not doable, unless you want to completely set the US into a deeper recession than Trump has already positioned the US and global economy.

    The Chinese will now play this card playing on Trump’s narcissism and belief he’s the best and most popular, most intelligent President and business person alive.

    Not only that the EU leaders know Trump’s weakness other than his lower than average IQ. So far they have placated Trump, but they to are nearing the end of their patience with the Mron in Chief. The G7 will be interesting with Boris and Trump and the EU.

    • 0 avatar
      Lou_BC

      @James Charles – an arrogant false sense of superiority has put DJ Trump in the position he’s in. He did tweet, “Trade wars are easy to win”. As you have pointed out many times before, the USA is no longer the power it once was. China is almost on par. TPP minus USA is comparable and so is the EU. The same arrogance that will be the orange clown’s downfall is at play in the EU. They arrogantly assumed that they are still “the big boy on the block” when it comes to Europe. The British Empire died decades ago. It appears they forgot that fact. The orange clown and Brexit Boris will find out that life on one’s own sucks.

  • avatar
    jimmyy

    So refreshing to have a real president. Obama was running around doing US apology tours while China was working to bankrupt the US.

    • 0 avatar
      bd2

      A “real” president who has spent about 3rd of his Presidency at his properties (costing taxpayers hundreds of millions)?

      A “real” president who spends so much of his time watching TV from where he gets a lot of policies ideas (Faux News), as well as (unqualified) appointees.

      A “real” president who can’t be bothered to read the daily intelligence briefing (already cut down in length), but has it read to him (w/ a lot of mentions of his name thrown in)?

      A “real” president who flip-flops on his position within days, if not 24 hours, based on how his base reacts (not that he has any real policy positions)?

      How can businesses plan for anything when Drumpf proclaims that tariffs will go into effect on a certain date, but then keeps changing it on a whim?

      A “real” president (speaking of apologies) who continually apologizes for his masters (Putin and the Crown Prince), not to mention his “bestie” (Kim Jong-un).

      Speaking of apologies – Drumpf especially seems to go out of his way to defend Putin, including throwing the United States under the bus.

      “There are a lot of killers. WE have a lot of KILLERS. Well, you think OUR country is so INNOCENT?”

      “Well, I think that our country does plenty of killing, too, Joe.”

      – Drumpf’s responses to references of Putin as a killer.

      If Obama or any other Democratic President had stated that (esp. in defense of Putin), the pitchforks would have been out to an even greater degree.

      And let’s not forget – a “real” president who thinks it’s a good idea to explode a nuclear warhead within a hurricane, cuz, you know, he’s a “very stable genius,” believe me.

  • avatar
    DenverMike

    @James Charles-former BAFO.

    Are you the new BAFO (James Charles) or the old (banned) one?

    You said “…we have had many meaningful discussions for over a decade.”

    As “James Charles”, you’ve been here less than a year. Did you momentarily forget which BAFO you are?

    Except the US pioneered automotive safely/emissions regulations.

    The EU didn’t even require catalytic converters before 1993. Airbag, passive restraints still aren’t required in the EU.

    Of course when the EU did get around to adapting their very own safety/emissions regulations, they had to differ as much as possible from US regs.

    It’s called “protectionism”. New word for you there. Yes anything to slow or impede imports, especially from the US.

    It’s to the point of comedy, zigging everywhere US regs “zag”.

    It’s to the point of stupid too. They couldn’t do “kilometers per liter” (KPL), that’s too easy, and too similar to US MPG.

    They instead went with “liters to 100 kilometers”, to avoid use of decimals.

    But let’s not mention sky high 10 to 22% tariffs the EU imposes on import vehicles.

    Yes more of the world’s automakers (many of dubious quality/safety/emissions) have avoided US regulations, obviously when avoiding the US.

    The only reason they avoid the US, which happens to be the car market most open to import cars, of any and all meaningful, large markets, simply because of something called “US Lemon Laws”.

    “Lemon Laws” are obviously a foreign concept, especially for markets in your part of the world including Africa, Australia and SE Asia.

  • avatar
    Jeff S

    @TheDumbGuy-formerly JoeBrick–I respect that you put your money where your mouth is. Most goods are made in China and buying used is an alternative if you do in fact verify where the goods are made in addition to saving money.

    @Art Vandelay–I respect you as well in that you seek out goods made in the USA.

    @Lou_BC–China is use to waiting for generations so tariffs and Trump are not going to stop China over the long run. China will wait it out. The tariffs have hurt the farmers the most and the longer they go on the more likely the farmers lose the Chinese market which is their largest market. South American countries are increasing their farmland to replace the US. Even with the increase in ethanol production and the amount of increase in ethanol in gasoline will not replace the agricultural market in China.

    It is a no win for the US in that if we do reach a trade agreement with China it will most likely not change the intellectual property theft and China will still have the upperhand in trade.

    • 0 avatar
      James Charles

      Jeff,
      I do believe your point on IP is significant, but you forgot the most important aspect of business in China, government involvement.

      As for buying “American” to me is not really an issue as I believe trying to prop up uncompetitive industry a waste of resources that could be better used to improve the bottom line. The reality is if a product is fit for purpose, use it.

      So, to me whether you buy a pot or pan made in China, US, Australia has little bearing on making a country a better place. What does have a bearing is types of industry and the value they offer a nation. Really, cordless drills, motor vehicles, fridges, TVs and on and on doesn’t necessarily make a country great. What makes a country great are its people and how the people think, innovation and pushing boundaries.

      Back to Chinese government influence on business and industry. First as I pointed above who cares if China can produce basic consumer goods cheaper than the US, EU even Australia. Because we must find what we are good at. In Australia’s case due to our small population we can only be good in a limited number of areas, mining, logistics and material handling, agri, but we also have highly developed bio-medical, advanced engineering, tech, finance and service industries.

      The US is the same, but with a larger population. The difference now and say 50 years ago is the size of the market. Global markets have expanded hugely, which affects the scale of industry. To produce and sell vehicles in the US now can’t support a global market, the US is no longer the single biggest vehicle market and you can look at this from 2 differing perspectives.

      The first is the US is the second biggest market which can support a degree of independence by the use of targeted tariffs (25%) on certain types of vehicles, align this to an energy policy with regulated design controls you can have certain vehicle product lines remain successful. The problem here is you now have introduced a significant difference between a US market and your competition, which aids US sales, but greatly reduces export opportunities.

      The second is the US is actually the smallest market due to non conformance of external standards. The US is on its own with standards that don’t match where the rest of the competition (world) is heading.

      So, the US can’t say no one is buying enough of our vehicles when the US has actively sought to not produce and support sufficiently what the US competition favours. So the US sells little for export.

      The same can be said for many US industries.

      In the end the US should of targeted China’s inability to change government/state business and IP using its Allies, the EU, Japan, Australia, etc. But Trump has gone out penalising them, who are not a competitive threat due to the similar costs of operating in those countries.

      The US has focused on the wrong areas to challenge the Chinese, because if some one can do a job cheaper, why not. That’s the way the US works overall, value and Chinese made offered value.

      By tackling Beijing on IP and government/state business would of allowed the use of multinationals to gradually wear down the Chinese authority and freed up China.

      But, Trump is using government/state interference and influence with the Chinese allowing the Chinese to tell the US “how can you dictate to us about government interference when you are doing it yourselves”.

      Trump has totally mismanaged dealing with China. I really believe Trump’s beligerance against the very people who could help him, his lack of business and diplomatic acumen and experience has jepordised the US position and endangered the West. The West ain’t happy with Trump with his destruction of agreements, pacts, accords and on and on and now he’s fncking the global economy.

  • avatar
    Jeff S

    @James Charles–I did not state a view on whether it is a good thing or not a good thing for the US to import goods, I stated that I respect those who practice what they preach which is if they believe it is bad to buy Chinese goods then don’t buy them. I myself don’t belief the President’s tariffs will work in the long run because the Chinese can wait it out. I believe it would be more effective to continue the talks with the Chinese particularly on theft of intellectual property. If you know the Chinese culture you know that is important for the Chinese to save face. Chinese are not going to admit to currency manipulation or to intellectual property theft and this is regardless of their Government–this is ingrained in their culture. Getting in a war of words and using retaliatory tariffs is not going to move the Chinese.

    To your point I agree let the negotiators do their work and use your alliances instead of alienating your allies. I am not as concerned about where my frying pan or toaster is made but I am concerned about intellectual property theft. If one really wants to point a finger one only needs to go back to President Nixon’s trip to China in 1972 and the trade negotiations that resulted from the opening of trade. I am not saying that it was bad to open talks with China but US businesses were all to willing to use cheap Chinese labor even if it meant sharing their technology. If anything corporate greed is as much to blame as anything.
    What many don’t understand is the Chinese Government is willing to wait any negotiations with Trump out even if it means waiting another 4 to 8 years.

  • avatar

    China is fxxked up and is terminally ill. We know about it and they know about it. Chinese economy is the house of cards. It’s just matter of time when all that shaky construction comes downs. Capitalist economy is not compatible with communist political system. What’s happening in Hong Kong is just beginning. It will spread out to the rest of country. It is similar to what happened with Warsaw pact after Solidarnost movement started in Poland. Chinese rulers think that they can wait out Trump and after Dems take power (as if) they will manipulate them like puppets. But time is not on their side, contrary to that – it is against them. Russians communists also thought they can wait out Reagan but system crumbled down much sooner.

  • avatar
    Jeff S

    China will wait it out regardless if they are Communist or not. China is not like Russia or even the West. The Chinese do not have the same concept of time as we have they were in isolation from the rest of the World for centuries by choice. As for Hong Kong it is likely that the Chinese will bring in the military to squash the rebellion. Our only chance with China is to not alienate our allies and together as a united force we negotiate with the Chinese on theft of intellectual property and on Hong Kong but do it in such a way that it gives China a way to save face. China will walk away from any negotiations if they feel they are shamed. Verbal and tweet attacks will not bring China to negotiations.

    • 0 avatar
      HotPotato

      100% correct.

      A journalist asked an exiled democracy protester shortly after the Tienanmen Square massacre if he was discouraged. “No,” he said, “I think democracy will come to China.” When? asked the interviewer. “Very soon,” he replied brightly, “maybe 100 years.”

      Their time horizon isn’t ours. They’re playing the long game. If they must, they can wait out this president, and the next, and the next.

      And yes: with an economy that large and growing larger, it will take a united multilateral front standing against their unfair practices, not just a single country with a mercurial leader who destroys his own international alliances.

      And yes: they must be able to save face, not bow down to some narcissist who must be told he’s won or it’s no deal. Too many painful colonial memories to do it any other way.

      100% correct.


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