By on April 6, 2015
In just a few years these nameplates will disappear from Cadillac showrooms

In just a few years these nameplates will disappear from Cadillac showrooms

It got a little buried in the rush of news out of the New York Auto Show, but GMInsideNews reports that at the private introduction of the Cadillac CT6 last week, the night before the NYIAS media preview, Cadillac head Johan de Nysschen confirmed that the existence of the CT6 flagship will make the current XTS large sedan superfluous. That seems to have been a foregone conclusion, but somewhat surprisingly de Nysschen also said that when the time comes to replace the CTS and ATS models, not only will those nameplates die as the brand moves to the CTx nomenclature, the new cars won’t be direct replacements. De Nysschen also announced that with the exit of the XTS, Cadillac will be leaving the livery business.

It’s rumored that both of the smaller sedans will be somewhat downsized, positioning what will presumably be called the CT2 against the compact Mercedes-Benz CLA while the CTS’ replacement, the CT4, will move slightly downmarket to give more room for the CT6, while leaving space above that car for something range topping should Cadillac truly dare greatly and build something like the Elmiraj or Ciel concepts.

Concerning Cadillac’s bread and butter sedans, GMInsideNews quotes de Nysschen as saying, “As we move into the future refining our sedan portfolio, there will be no direct successor to the CTS. There will be no direct successor to the ATS. There is no point to renaming those cars because in the future those cars will disappear.”

Also disappearing from Cadillac’s lineup will be the XTS. Based on a platform that compromised both proportions and interior space, many saw the XTS as  a stopgap product to give the brand something upmarket from the CTS.  Assuming a normal product lifecycle, the XTS would likely have been replaced for the 2019 model year, but de Nysschen said that’s not going to happen. “Ultimately, a car like XTS when it reaches the end of its lifecycle, will not be replaced.”

Since the XTS is the only car in Cadillac’s current lineup that has the size and construction suitable for coachbuilders to convert to hearse and limousine use, when it goes out of production, Cadillac will likely stop serving that market.

I’ve written about how automakers supply the livery business and it’s not just a matter of making a car that’s the right size and shape. Both GM and Ford have certification processes to make sure that the conversion companies that they supply are capable of maintaining the structural integrity of their finished products and I have to presume that making sure the car’s architecture is up to the task is part of the process as well. My guess is that the new CT6’s architecture, which combines aluminum and high strength steel, cannot be cut up and stretched the way the XTS’ steel unibody can be modified. “We will not have a car that will lend itself to these kind of modifications and we will probably withdrawal from those markets,” de Nysschen told GMInsideNews.

Ronnie Schreiber edits Cars In Depth, a realistic perspective on cars & car culture and the original 3D car site. If you found this post worthwhile, you can get a parallax view at Cars In Depth. If the 3D thing freaks you out, don’t worry, all the photo and video players in use at the site have mono options. Thanks for reading – RJS

 

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200 Comments on “De Nysschen: Cadillac ATS & CTS “Will Disappear”, XTS “Will Not Be Replaced”, Cadillac Will Exit Livery Market...”


  • avatar
    Tinn-Can

    What does the T in CTwhatever stand for?

    • 0 avatar
      Eyeflyistheeye

      The CTS name means “Catera Touring Sedan,” so I assume “Touring.”

    • 0 avatar
      psarhjinian

      It doesn’t stand for anything, any more than the “Q” in Infiniti’s Qn naming convention stands for anything.

      de Nysschen did the with Audi, then Infiniti and now Cadillac. It worked at Audi, though arguably having the best new cars in the segment (the B4 A4) debut with those names might have something to do with it.

      • 0 avatar
        Richard Chen

        IIRC the Q in Q45 was a homage to the Nissan Cue-X concept from the mid 1980’s

        http://hooniverse.com/2013/03/24/weekend-edition-transport-to-central-1985-nissan-cue-x/

      • 0 avatar
        whynot

        I don’t think de Nysschen had anything to do with Audi coming up with their nomenclature ,they developed that in the mid 90s when de Nysschen was just the GM of Audi South Africa according to his Linkedin profile. Rather he just saw how successful it was (due mostly to the product, not name though) that he emulated it when he moved to Infiniti and now Cadillac.

      • 0 avatar
        Mr. Orange

        CT stands for Cadillac Touring. At the introduction of the CT6, it was introduced as the Cadillac Touring 6.

    • 0 avatar
      dbar1

      The nomenclature is Cadillac Touring per Johan. Its not complicated.

      • 0 avatar

        I think, at least for the CT6 and future CT8, they can keep the alphanumeric badge on the trunk, but refer to the cars as the Cadillac Touring 6 and Cadillac Touring 8, maybe even spell out Six and Eight. It evokes the classic era of motorcar and has an elegant sound.

        • 0 avatar
          CoreyDL

          That is an excellent suggestion Ronnie, and I hope they do it. Reminds me of Packard.

          • 0 avatar
            DeadWeight

            “Reminds me of Packard.”

            In more ways than one.

            CTS sales for March 2015 was off around 50% with only 1500 deliveries.

            ATS has cliff dived.

            AND this is despite Cadillac trying to aggressively expand sales of both by 1,000 units as fleet courtesy vehicles:

            “In the United States, Cadillac is pleased to announce an initiative to expand its service loaner/courtesy car program to support the customer experience at Cadillac stores across the country. Cadillac dealers have expanded their courtesy transportation fleets by approximately 1,000 additional units, which are reflected in March sales. The revised program further aligns Cadillac to meet customer expectations for courtesy transportation, providing newer, fresher vehicles to Cadillac owners while their vehicles are being serviced, and reducing utilization of daily rental cars for this purpose.”

            http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums/2014-cadillac-cts-general-discussion/689465-hyundai-genesis-here-i-come.html

          • 0 avatar
            28-Cars-Later

            Do those loaner cars count as “sales” perhaps?

          • 0 avatar
            Johnster

            It IS an excellent suggestion! That’s probably why they won’t do it.

        • 0 avatar
          Sigivald

          Does that suggest potentially a “CL8”, for Cadillac Luxury Eight?

          Go big or go home, Cadillac.

        • 0 avatar
          Ihatejalops

          I dunno, this just reeks of being the follower. So what if it’s worked for the German’s, the names have to mean something to the consumers. What really does CT8 mean besides the obvious? I’m sorry, but if Cadillac wants to stick out it needs to create individual “brands” for cars rather than this silly copy-cat scheme.

          I mean Camry has more Cache then CTS, ATS…etc.. Ironic that Escalade is the top selling vehicle. Didn’t Ford learn their lesson with this?

          • 0 avatar
            redav

            Don’t expect sense to trump dogma.

            Cadillac will successfully out-German the Germans, even if it kills them.

    • 0 avatar
      duffman13

      trolling

      • 0 avatar
        Mandalorian

        You know if they spelled out “Six” some pranxter would go around changing the Is to Es.

        • 0 avatar
          CoreyDL

          Such a person has no taste or respect for personal property, and should be in jail then!

          Just think-

          “What are you driving these days, Jim?”
          “A Cadillac Eight.”

          Rolls right off the tongue.

          • 0 avatar
            Noble713

            “Cadillac Eight” is also how women should refer to your phallus.

            “What are you riding these days, Jill?”
            “[TTAC member]’s Cadillac Eight”.

  • avatar
    Eyeflyistheeye

    Exiting the livery market?! When people think of a limo, they think Cadillac.

    Nice work Johnny, keep making stupid decisions like that and the Democrats and Republicans will fight each other to nominate you for President next year.

    • 0 avatar
      psarhjinian

      “When people think of a limo, they think Cadillac”

      Most people think Lincoln. Usually “limo” means “Town Car”

      Although I’ve seen more than a few (grossly tacky) Excursions and Escalades.

      • 0 avatar
        CoreyDL

        Limo means Town Car, always. From 1980 to 2015, it has meant Town Car.

        • 0 avatar
          TMA1

          And hearse means Cadillac, as far as I can tell.

          • 0 avatar
            CoreyDL

            Yes, most hearse things I see are a DTS. I have seen one hears MKT and one hearse XTS, both of which were hideous.

            Nicest hearse I’ve seen recently was an emerald green DTS.

            Oh man I want a DTS truck.
            http://hooniverse.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/cadillac-dts-hearse-flower-car.jpg

          • 0 avatar
            bball40dtw

            The MkT hearse and limo are scary looking. Also, I fear for the longevity of the differentials on the AWD MkT limos.

          • 0 avatar
            28-Cars-Later

            @Corey

            Its called a flower car, when you are a VIP I believe it precedes the hearse.

            @bball

            I would think (and hope) the MkFlex hearse and the MkTaurus limos are FWD. Why on Earth a livery buyer would say yes I need my hearse or limo to be AWD is beyond me. Look for the livery Panthers to soldier on long after the D3s are Chinese refrigerators.

          • 0 avatar
            bball40dtw

            Eh, the livery panthers are disappearing already. They’ve been replaced by Navis and Escalades on the high end around here. On the low end it’s mostly Caravans now. I’ve been in Phoenix three times in the last six weeks and I’ve lost the taxi cab roulette each time. An HHR taxi for me from Sky Harbor to Scottsdale. Just. Awful.

            It has almost been four years since the last TC rolled off the assembly line. It’s been over four years since the last CV was built. Those cars are barely memories now.

          • 0 avatar
            28-Cars-Later

            We have executives who fly into our HQ here for training, so we get a fair amount of airport livery traffic. Seems to almost always be refrigerator white Econolines, black Panthers, and W-impalas the last of which are almost always marked Yellow Cabs.

            In the case of funeral livery (hearse and six door limos), those will be the last Panthers to go I suspect due to longer change intervals.

          • 0 avatar
            TMA1

            bball, I saw a Fiesta taxi cab tooling around DC yesterday. Things could be worse! Why would any cab company think people would ride in the back of a Fiesta?

          • 0 avatar
            bball40dtw

            TMA1-

            Worst. Taxicab. Ever.

            People that own Fiestas don’t even want anyone to sit in the back. That’s why they bought a Fiesta to begin with.

          • 0 avatar
            CoreyDL

            Hahah, I know what a flower car is!

      • 0 avatar
        APaGttH

        A lot of the limos I’ve seen around here (in what you would think are the classic stretch limo) has been based on the Chrysler 300.

        • 0 avatar
          CoreyDL

          IMO, the 300 limo is just instantly ghetto. It doesn’t work well for that use.

          • 0 avatar
            krhodes1

            ALL stretch limos are ghetto. I make a small exception for the factory slightly longer cars.

          • 0 avatar
            CoreyDL

            I think you can have a dignified limo, sort of. The most being a Town Car. The B-body Fleetwood limo was also dignified.

            I have also seen S-Class (mid 00s) limos which looked good. And there was one in Rush Hour 2.

          • 0 avatar
            Sigivald

            Better than a Hummer Limo.

            (And contra krhodes – all stretch limos are *tacky*.

            Not all of them are “ghetto”.)

    • 0 avatar
      mcs

      None of the XTS’ I see in airport taxi service are stretched. They’re standard length. I’ve always assumed the 4 cylinder CT-6 was aimed at that market. Probably meant the CT-6 won’t be a prom-mobile or hearse.

      • 0 avatar
        DeadWeight

        When I mentioned that the NA CT6 would have a 4 cylinder base motor, all the Cadillac loyalists accused me of “blasphemy” and ignorant trolling.

        Oh snap. 4 cylinder CT6 Flagship BMW 7 Series & MB S Class competitor.

        • 0 avatar
          sportyaccordy

          Dont know about the blasphemy but it was def trolling. You found a schtick and beat it into the ground.

          • 0 avatar
            DeadWeight

            Wait, so you’re saying a dozen or so people did NOT claim that I was wrong when I stated the NA CT6 would get the GM ubiquitous 2.0T motor as its base engine?

        • 0 avatar
          Sigivald

          S-Class competitor?

          From Mercedes-Benz.de:

          S 300 BlueTEC HYBRID Limousine 150 + 20 kW (204 + 27 PS) 4 Zylinder

          So, yeah, not a hybrid, but almost certainly lighter, and more powerful.

          (Will it compete with the S in *North America*? Not very well, I think.

          But a 2.0T sure as hell can compete with *that* S Class.)

          Actually, now that I think of it, isn’t the CT8 the “S-Class competitor”? The CT6 ought to notionally be competing with the E-Class and 5-Series…

        • 0 avatar
          bd2

          Again, the CT6 is NOT the Cadillac flagship, a CT8 flagship will becoming by the end of the decade.

          And CT6 seems to be a “tweener” btwn the 5 and SWB 7 Series, so it is appropriate to gave a 4-cyl, esp. for these days.

          • 0 avatar
            28-Cars-Later

            Respectfully disagree on the four banger, if it wants to play in the big leagues it should have a serious powertrain. The only way it gets a pass with an I4 in my book is as a hybrid or EV a la Volt.

  • avatar
    bomberpete

    I have a job interview with these people in SoHo next week. I’m thinking of canceling. Or maybe I should just go and see what kind of peyote they pass out there.

    • 0 avatar
      28-Cars-Later

      Go and then tell us about the experience.

    • 0 avatar
      DeadWeight

      If nothing else, it will be interesting working there during *the end of an era*, as Johan de Nysschen & Melissa CT-Lee do a Dull Packard/Tucker/Nash Cliff Dive with Cadillac.

      …Many stories to regale the grandkids with.

      • 0 avatar
        DeadWeight

        Mary Barra & Mark Ruess agreed to let Johan have 12 billion USD for development of Cadillac models (37% of all GM new model funding over specific time frame despite 1 out of 20 GM sales being a Cadillac) AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS CADILLAC GOING OUT OF BUSINESS 2020 T-SHIRT.

      • 0 avatar
        Ihatejalops

        Actually, I think it would be great working there if they let people in the door who knew what they were doing. Doubtful the MBA’s are doing a great job. Very few people there who understand luxury & cars.

        Hard combination to get right. Aside, it’ll last longer than 2020 as the gov’t will bail it out again.

  • avatar
    28-Cars-Later

    Interesting.

    “Since the XTS is the only car in Cadillac’s current lineup that has the size and construction suitable for coachbuilders to convert to hearse and limousine use, when it goes out of production, Cadillac will likely stop serving that market.”

    Unless the Escalade is going too, they won’t completely stop serving the livery market. What they will stop doing is offering a Cadillac commercial chassis, which they have been offering since I think the 1950s. I think this impacts limousine focused coachbuilders more than hearse and other livery needs. Escalade SWB can and will still move VIPs, airport travelers, and Uber/Lyft jitney passengers, while Escalade EXT can still be used as a hearse if desired. My guess is since the G-body Deville went out of production coachbuilder demand has slowed to a crawl so why bother catering to it? You want Escalade cool, otherwise GFY. Will be interesting to see if Lincoln or Chrysler picks up (or has been picking up) the slack. Honestly I haven’t seen a limo or hearse in the past seven years which wasn’t a G-body or Panther except the Chrysler LX limo I saw in Dublin, Ireland.

    “de Nysschen also said that when the time comes to replace the CTS and ATS models, not only will those nameplates die as the brand moves to the CTx nomenclature, the new cars won’t be direct replacements.”

    Oh snap. So… are we dumping the platform JdN?

    “It’s rumored that both of the smaller sedans will be somewhat downsized, positioning what will presumably be called the CT2 against the compact Mercedes-Benz CLA while the CTS’ replacement”

    Cimmaron, FTW.

    • 0 avatar
      DeadWeight

      CT1 – Cadillac version of Chevy Spark
      CT2 – Cadillac version of Chevy Cruze
      CT3 – Cadillac version of Chevy Encore
      CT4 – Cadillac version of Chevy Malibu
      CT5 – Cadillac version of Chevy Equinox (formerly known as SRX)
      CT6 – $68,000 MSRP sedan sold for $48,500 by December of 2016
      CT7 – Cadillac version of Corvette
      CT8 – Cadillac’s last vehicle produced. A $85,000 MSRP wannabe S Class competitor unveiled in 2017 that fares as well as the Allante.Will be a future collector’s car.

      • 0 avatar
        mike978

        DW, when are you going to meet Johan? Please write about it as it should be entertaining.

        • 0 avatar
          sportyaccordy

          I hope JdN is armed and cloaked by bodyguards. I could DEFINITELY see DW taking things to that level.

          • 0 avatar
            DeadWeight

            I’m a rational, calm & even diplomatic person.

            Rage & violence are counterproductive.

            Johan would have nothing to fear except my revealing his complete incompetence even more fully through skillful interrogatories/queries.

            Cadillac is being literally driven off a cliff by these clowns.

      • 0 avatar
        mcs

        They haven’t registered CT1, but they have the rest. None of the crossovers will get the CT naming convention. All crossovers will be XTx names. They’ve already registered the names with USPTO – that’s my source.

      • 0 avatar
        mtypex

        Just like Pontiac. Pontiac, Cadillac … GM is killing off French words.
        Oh, and they cannot sell a ‘sporty’ car for the life of them.

        It is OK, Chevrolet and Buick are here to stay.

      • 0 avatar
        28-Cars-Later

        “CT6 – $68,000 MSRP sedan sold for $48,500 by December of 2016”

        I’m not sure on the timeline but wouldn’t they offer this toward the end of 2015 as an MY16? In this case: $68,0 MSRP for $38,5 by December 2015.

        • 0 avatar
          DeadWeight

          Probably.

          I am using ATS, CTS & XTS as a discounting-off-of-MSRP yardstick.

          It’s now well established that non-GM employees with IQ’s above 85 can get 10k to 14k off an ATS’s sticker, 15k to 18 k off a CTS’s sticker, and 17k to 20k off an XTS’s sticker.

          That works out to about 25% to 33% off sticker.

          Now that Cadillac has confirmed that the ATS & CTS are in a sales death spiral & that they won’t be replaced with similarly sized/priced models, those discounts will probably actually rise.

          • 0 avatar
            28-Cars-Later

            I may just see ATS at 19,9 yet.

          • 0 avatar

            I was amazed. Cars.com, my fav car porn site
            shows lightly used ATS for $20k. This may be the best hit em where they ain’t enthusiast bargain ever.

            Not good for the Mother ship and the leasing companies, though.

            I agree with DW, there is NO reason whatsoever that a Caddy should have a 4 cylinder. Europe is different, the tax codes are different, and gas is still very expensive. 4 cyl Caddy ?….uh, no.

          • 0 avatar
            28-Cars-Later

            @speedlaw

            Please post your link for cars.com

            I’m still showing MY13 ATS RWD “Luxury” 2.5 and 2.0T doing right around 20K wholesale in avg condition 30-40K otc. Very clean examples did 23,0 and 24,5.

          • 0 avatar

            http://www.cars.com/for-sale/searchresults.action?feedSegId=28705&rpp=50&alMkId=20052&requestorTrackingInfo=RTB_SEARCH&stkTypId=28881&PMmt=1-1-0&zc=10520&rd=250&mdId=47563&mkId=20052&searchSource=SORT_USED&crSrtFlds=stkTypId-feedSegId-mkId-mdId&pgId=2102&sf1Nm=price&sf1Dir=ASC&sf2Nm=miles&sf2Dir=ASC

            Used, 19-22k. I didn’t mean new or cash on the hood. Huge depreciation.

          • 0 avatar
            28-Cars-Later

            Thanks. Those cheaper ones are all the 2.5 similar to what DW drove and what propelled him on a mission of truth/shaming of Cadillac.

            This one here is a V6, but 1) Hertz and 2) 43K otc make it less attractive to me.

            http://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/detail/627406294/overview/

            “No Haggle One Price on all our vehicles. The price you see is the price you pay! No gimmicks or hidden fees!”

            That no haggle is about wholesale on an MY13 V6. Personally I’d still want to lowball them at 18.

            04/02/15 Manheim Dallas-Fort Worth Lease $19,200 41,153 Avg GOLD 6G A Yes
            04/01/15 Manheim Denver Lease $19,400 41,456 Avg SILVER 6G A Yes
            03/25/15 Manheim Seattle Regular $21,000 43,280 Above GOLD 6G A Yes
            03/24/15 Manheim Baltimore-Washington Lease $17,000 44,657 Below SILVER 6G A No

            I’m waiting to see 19,9 on a new one (maybe an I4) and 23,9 for a V6.

      • 0 avatar
        bd2

        You’d be spouting more “truth” if you were talking about the Lexus lineup.

    • 0 avatar
      TMA1

      Escalade hearse? Just tie me to a horse, I want to go out with some class.

  • avatar

    Considering all of the $100,000+ cars there are, I’m surprised that nobody is building a purpose-built exclusive limousine, something in the $100K-$150k range might work.

    • 0 avatar
      CoreyDL

      Isn’t that what the new Maybach Pullman is? Though granted it’s over 100-150.

    • 0 avatar
      mcs

      Just import the Red Flag HQE.

    • 0 avatar
      whynot

      That is because they are using tricked out Mercedes Sprinters (or Ford Transits according to Ford, but can’t compete with the MB badge) for that. More space for more luxury.

      See http://www.beckerautodesign.com/index.html

    • 0 avatar
      VenomV12

      Most of the times when you see celebs being driven around it is in Suburbans or Tahoes, not even custom ones from what I gather. Even then you are out in Manhattan, you see a surprising amount of Suburbans and Tahoes ferrying the wealthy around or picking their kids up from school so there really doesn’t seem to be that much of a need for that kind of car like you would think there would be.

      • 0 avatar
        ellomdian

        I have to wonder if this is the real terminus of the SUV-addled 90’s: Full-size livery sedans replaced by Suburbans.

        Then again, it might just be that it’s way easier to get in and out of a SUV than a traditional hire car. Especially if you are wearing a short skirt and no underwear.

  • avatar
    APaGttH

    So does this mean that Alpha was a failure? I mean – if the next “ATS” or whatever they call it won’t be built on Alpha (which seems to be the implication), and it only lives on in the Camaro – it seems like a huge amount of investment that has yielded – nothing.

    Everything I’ve read (never drove an ATS) is that the suspension and dynamics are brilliant. The 328/335 that BMW should have built (strictly from chassis dynamics) so it isn’t all bad – also supports AWD.

    I’ll be curious on what GM does to extend the platform – if anything.

    • 0 avatar
      dal20402

      Reading the tea leaves here I think the CTS replacement will stay Alpha and the ATS replacement will go D2XX.

      • 0 avatar
        28-Cars-Later

        Exactly, a Cimmaron.

      • 0 avatar
        heavy handle

        Yeah, I think he is implying that the names will change, but not necessarily the platforms. Being a marketing man, he knows that branding is the most important thing.

        • 0 avatar
          28-Cars-Later

          Deck chairs on the Titanic.

        • 0 avatar
          smartascii

          Honestly, if you can’t get someone to buy something called an ATS, putting a spit-shine on it and calling it the CT4 is not really going to do anything for you. Just ask Infiniti how that G35-to-Q60 transition is going. Being a marketing man, he has completely neglected to remember that product matters.

          • 0 avatar
            28-Cars-Later

            Personally I’ve never met a marketeer who cared about his product or it’s quality.

          • 0 avatar
            NoGoYo

            At least Infiniti has apparently realized the Q60 has issues and is working on fixing them, especially the piss-poor steering.

          • 0 avatar
            redav

            The ‘marketing’ folks in my company will gladly sell a customer something they know is unsuitable for service thus assuring mutual destruction of ourselves and our customers if it means a sale.

            It sounds like an exaggeration, but it absolutely is not. It’s only a matter of time they literally kill someone through their negligence and find themselves in jail.

      • 0 avatar
        bd2

        I’m thinking that Cadillac will move the CTS and ATS replacement to new platforms using the new tech/build process used for the CT6.

        That way, Cadillac can offer greater passenger room and still keep weight down (also wouldn’t do for the CTS replacement to weigh as much as the CT6).

        And JDN was insistent that Cadillac’s sub-entry/CLA/A3/1 Series competitor would be RWD, so if he holds to that, wouldn’t be based on the D2XX.

    • 0 avatar
      jmiller417

      JdN has said the sub-ATS will be RWD, so I figure it’ll remain an Alpha.

  • avatar
    kingbernie06511

    I respect all the fancy moves de Nysschen makes, but at the end of the day Caddies design language isnt good enough (Kia’s K900 RWD sedan just looks better than the CT6) so all these moves wont translate into more sales or higher ATP.

    Its too bad cuz these cars have great powertrains and drive tight.

    It all starts with a good product… and lets not talk about Caddies image as a whole…

    • 0 avatar
      28-Cars-Later

      Agreed on the design language.

      • 0 avatar
        kingbernie06511

        you disagree on the powertrains & drive characteristics?

        • 0 avatar
          28-Cars-Later

          Not necessarily disagree. The 3.6 DOHC is an acceptable powertrain, it just isn’t standard on some models as it should be. The LSx should also be offered on most models not simply the “V” series. The 2.0T should be offered but in a limited capacity on ATS as it was always intended. AFA driving characteristics, they have six platforms (K2XX, Alpha, Epsilon II, Theta Prem, Delta II for ELR) and only one of which was benchmarked against an E46 BMW. There is only so much you can do with shared GM platforms not necessarily designed for drive-ability, and the one which was designed for German style drive-ability seems to have other deficiencies. In order to fix everything I would drop the notion you can effectively compete with the Germans and offer a smooth feeling and driving cars without any real sporting pretense, but that’s not reality. The cheap, easy, and realistic thing to do is restyle the cars they do have and tone down the dated/ugly A&S style and hope this gets a few more butts in the showroom.

          • 0 avatar
            kingbernie06511

            Dawg, they offer twin turbos now….

          • 0 avatar
            DeadWeight

            Another brick missing is Johan’s facade of fraud:

            He moves Cadillac HQ to SoHo with a 12 bln check, on the premise that Cadillac needs separation from and exclusivity of General Motors, while using generic, ubiquitous GM motors and other major components, with the promise that by adding twin turbos to future products having the same, core, generic GM motors found in other GM offerings in Cadillacs, that will somehow deem the product exclusive.

            It’s an Imminent Front.

            It’s going to be a black hole swallowing 12 billion dollars of cash that could’ve been used to improved GM’s CUVs/SUVs, volume sedans & other vehicles.

          • 0 avatar
            28-Cars-Later

            Twin turbos were cool twenty years ago, primarily because they were rare. If everyone is doing it these days it ceases to be cool. GM has a world class V8, it would be foolish not to utilize it more (not to mention cheaper to use vs what I imagine is a more expensive twin turbo motor).

          • 0 avatar
            KalapanaBlack

            Speaking of my all-time favorite The Who song, have you realized how hilariously telling it is in the newest GMC (Chevy w/ upmarket trim) commercials? It’s a put-on, indeed…

          • 0 avatar
            28-Cars-Later

            Which commercial is it?

        • 0 avatar
          redav

          I never liked the art & science styling, and I’m frankly tired of it. It may be unique in the market, but I value having something I like looking at more than exclusivity.

  • avatar
    bumpy ii

    And Cadillac will get a lineup of modern CUVs… sometime in the 2020s? Who knows.

  • avatar
    CoreyDL

    “We will not have a car that will lend itself to these kind of modifications and we will probably withdrawal from those markets.”

    Well I hope he didn’t say that verbatim, as it’s terrible English. But anyway, you can still use the Escalade for livery duty. And that’s probably good enough.

  • avatar
    dbar1

    The nomenclature is Cadillac Touring per Johan. Its not complicated. Also, in 2003 this company launched this product somewhere on the internet that allows you to quarry for information. Use it.

    • 0 avatar
      CoreyDL

      Way to be a dick, and at the same time wrong as to the inception of Google, while simultaneously not using the reply button correctly.

      • 0 avatar
        arun

        To add to what coreydl said: it is query not quarry… Nice going Mr. Asshat

        • 0 avatar
          Sigivald

          Quarry, Verb: “to dig or take from”

          Or, more directly:

          “To extract or slowly obtain by long, tedious searching.”

          It’s valid.

          In fact, it’s probably better because it mocks how easy it is to find out what “CT” stands for.

          • 0 avatar
            arun

            I know what quarry means.. Am yet to see anyone well versed with the English language use it in the manner mentioned above.

          • 0 avatar
            28-Cars-Later

            “somewhere on the internet that allows you to quarry for information. Use it.”

            This is a valid if not esoteric use of the word quarry, in fact it is clever. I would nearly always default to query in the same sentence but I think I will attempt to incorporate “quarry” into my vocabulary (although one could argue quarry is more appropriate to mining and excavating than the retrieval of data).

            Middle English: from a variant of medieval Latin quareria, from Old French quarriere, based on Latin quadrum ‘a square.’ The verb dates from the late 18th century.

            verb
            1.
            extract (stone or other materials) from a quarry.

  • avatar
    DeadWeight

    The Cadillac ATS & CTS were such great successes & vanguards of the Cadillac brand & heritage, right every single person who #DaredGreatly to tell me – nay, whine/moan/complain/doth protest loudly – that I was wrong to call both overpriced, non-luxurious, cheap feeling POSs, that Johan just decided to Summarily execute both with a bullet to the back of the head….

    ….right?

    RIGHT.

    Whew. Wait until ATS & CTS loyal buyers & owners get a load of newly incoming resale values of their cars, which were already in freefall before Johan did a Zohan drop-kick on their a$$e$ just now.

    YIKES!

    • 0 avatar
      Kevin Jaeger

      We don’t even think you’re wrong. We think you’re nuts. Unhinged.

      GM has gone bankrupt before and I expect them to eventually go bankrupt again.

      That doesn’t make the 1000th repetition of an unhinged rant about an ATS gauge cluster relevant to a Piston Slap article about a problem with a Mitubishi.

      • 0 avatar
        DeadWeight

        This isn’t a Cadillac specific thread announcing the death of the ATS & CTS, to have no direct replacements (and XTS, which we already knew was coming)?

      • 0 avatar
        28-Cars-Later

        Coming to you from HBO Films, DeadWeight: Unhinged. Based on a true story.

        • 0 avatar
          DeadWeight

          “The story of a man with a burning desire to help save Cadillac from its own gross incompetence, using a basic, common sense approach, that would cost a mere fraction of the 12 billion USD about to be flushed down an irrational black hole created by Johan ‘Hit & Run’ de Nysschen & Melody ‘Brand Trumps Product’ Millennial-Speak CTLee.”

          • 0 avatar
            28-Cars-Later

            Somehow I am now getting the Tucker trailer stuck in my head.

            youtube.com/watch?v=0Y_Bqn-6uko

          • 0 avatar
            DeadWeight

            I genuinely think Cadillac is doomed.

            The CGI of the CT6’s interior looked okay when leaked by Caddy, but check out the mess it appears to be when exposed to bright, direct lighting:

            http://arstechnica.com/cars/2015/04/cadillacs-ct6-wants-to-beat-its-german-rivals-with-lightness-and-clever-tech/

            Yuck. Seriously. That looks awful.

            I won’t even get into how confusing Cadillac’s product development is becoming or the now contradictory rumors daily about fwd sub-ATS and fwd compact CUVs (if ever and when).

          • 0 avatar
            DeadWeight

            Look at the textures on the dash, doors, and the faux carbon fiber surrounding the center stack:

            http://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/2015-03-31-20.37.40.jpg

            The dash already looks dated, and this car won’t be in production until late 2015/early 2016.

            Imagine how even much more refined Audi, Mercedes, Lexus will be by then.

    • 0 avatar
      Sigivald

      “that I was wrong to call both overpriced, non-luxurious, cheap feeling POSs”

      To be fair, their disagreement with those is *a matter of taste* all around.

      Axed products and tanking resale are not *directly* proof of those three claims, just that the cars are market failures (especially the ATS).

  • avatar
    LALoser

    So now the water is poisoned for any GM sedan I was considering. I really like the SS, but the future for that car is dodgy at best.
    Now the ATS. The ATS-V went to the top for a new car next year, but why drop that much coin on a car that comes with the Grim Reaper as a hood ornament?

    • 0 avatar
      kingbernie06511

      If they dont make a SS that is based on an ATS or CTS (the new Camaro will be), considering the SS is a four door Camaro, whoever approves product development at GM should get fired.

      I still cant believe that GM is leaving the big american RWD sedan market to Chrysler and its 300.

      • 0 avatar
        Mandalorian

        Agreed. The SS should have been softened with AWD optional and become the Impala. The current Impala should have been the Malibu.

      • 0 avatar
        derekson

        Supposedly Buick might build a car on the Omega platform used by the CT6. That was previewed by the Avenir concept, which seemed popular.

        Then again concepts getting acclaim hasn’t exactly spurred GM to make production plans lately.

    • 0 avatar
      dwford

      Exactly. Why in God’s name would he tell the world that his product is shit and won’t be replaced?! As a car salesman I would have NEVER told a customer “no one buys this” or “this car is getting discontinued.” That would be the immediate kiss of death. Now, if he had said, “the next generation of ATS and CTS will move to our new CTx naming system,: or “we will compete in the full size luxury car market with the follow up to the XTS.” Something that implies continuity, not damaged goods.

      I also never like those commercials both Cadillac and Lincoln put out that ran through the history of the brands, yet at the same time admitted they had been or still are selling subpar cars. Why apologize in the ads, when the market you are targeting isn’t currently considering your brand and probably has no memory of your mistakes?

    • 0 avatar
      whynot

      Why are you guys talking like the SS has a future? The SS was just brought over from Australia to fulfill production contracts. Zeta production ends in a few years and the next Commodore is expected to be FWD.

      Considering the slow sales of the already volume limited SS I doubt GM has a successor on the horizon.

  • avatar
    Zackman

    See that large picture of the 1959 Caddy on the wall in the background? How can the Caddy-dudes working there see that and not think “what are we doing?”.

    Granted, there are classic Cadillacs more worthy of featuring photos of, but good grief, at least that monstrosity WAS a Cadillac and is revered by many today. Personally, I prefer the 1961 & 1965 models.

    Talk about poisoning the brand; not that I would ever buy one, but what in the world will Cadillac stand for? They need to dump the whole line and start over, building a car or cars worthy of the brand and its heritage. It appears that strategy is beginning to work for Lincoln.

    Nevertheless, I wish Cadillac the best, and who knows? Maybe they’ll surprise us after all. For their sake, I hope so. Chevy is on the right track.

  • avatar
    7402

    Will someone please tell me who Cadillac is? I’d ask them but they don’t seem to know.

  • avatar
    philadlj

    *SIGH*

    Cadillac will not be going out of business in any of our lifetimes.

    Book it.

  • avatar
    sportyaccordy

    This actually seems like a smart move, and should have been what Cadillac did… AFTER unveiling a full range of all new CUVs.

    I’ve been saying this for some time now but Range Rover has it right. Escalade could and should be its own brand, with coverage from a little Equinox based cute ute up to a truly upmarket ESV. Gauche? Easy? Unthusiast? Sure, but Caddy will be laughing all the way to the bank.

    • 0 avatar
      Wodehouse

      Amen. Is there not someone within the corporation that has the power and guts to make this happen? The competition is dropping new crossovers on the market, right and left and Cadillac brings another doppelgänger of a German sedan to the market. I like that it can ride and drive like the Germans, but, why does it have to look like them? Did they not learn from the watered down design of the last STS?

      The SRX is now in its 6th model year with very little change.

  • avatar
    Pch101

    De Nysschen’s plan would be good for 1995.

    It might be OK for 2005.

    For 2015, it’s too little, too late. The Germans now set the benchmark and have established their dominance. Convincing the world that an American badge can compete as a luxury passenger car maker is going to be a tough sell.

    What’s funny is that GM already has a German badge yet it refuses to reinvent it. What’s even more funny is that America is perceived abroad as the land of the monster SUV, yet GM has surrendered this market to Land Rover. Instead of exploiting its opportunities, GM ignores them.

    • 0 avatar
      mike978

      Agreed. Basically GM lacks confidence to go their own way. So wen commentators criticise them for being SUV/Truck dependent they push Cadillac into cars. When they see how the 3 series and other cars are lauded (rightly or wrongly doesn`t matter) they follow suit. They should learn that people will never be happy – they lose money, they are too SUV dependent, they are too heavy etc etc.

      They should have invented Hummer to compete with Jeep.

    • 0 avatar
      sportyaccordy

      Sharp assessment. The whole “no V8s from the company that made the V8 mainstream” irony is not lost on me either.

    • 0 avatar
      28-Cars-Later

      “What’s funny is that GM already has a German badge yet it refuses to reinvent it.”

      You’ve been pointing that out for some time and you’re right on the money. When RenCen starts listening is anyone’s guess.

    • 0 avatar
      bball40dtw

      Ain’t nobody care about Opel, even the Germans. And GM, of all companies, isn’t going to get anyone to care about Opel. They’ve been bungling that brand since 1931.

      Opel was even low on the totem pole for the German war efforts.

      • 0 avatar
        28-Cars-Later

        Perhaps, but in North America Opel is not well known. Pch’s point is the brand is not tarnished in the eyes of North American buyers and could be used to successfully compete with the other German brands.

        The other side of this is can Lincoln (or anyone else) take advantage of the chaos in the Cadillac brand?

        • 0 avatar
          bball40dtw

          I understand the point. He’s right to a certain extent. But I’m sure he’s also aware that GM would just burn another brand to the ground if given the chance.

          Lincoln has to make that transition from improved products to, “the Lincoln (blank) is the car to beat in the (blank) category.” I don’t think they need to fight the Germans head on, but they need something that wins some sales. I think the MKX needs to be that next step. It needs to conquest SRX, MDX, RX, Q5, etc owners.

          • 0 avatar
            Pch101

            If GM is to have a global luxury passenger car brand, Cadillac ain’t it. At this point, it won’t be taken seriously outside of the Midwestern US.

            Cadillac could be a convincing global SUV/CUV brand, since it plays into American stereotypes. Nobody will have trouble believing that the Yanks know how to build a big, brash sport utility.

            GM would have an easier time with Opel. Not easy, just easier. It’s German, which is a good thing in today’s car market. Its greatest battle for credibility would be in Europe, but with proper management, it could be built up as was Audi.

          • 0 avatar
            bball40dtw

            I agree, but I still think it’s an exercise in futility. The execution would be the same with a different badge. They’d still be late to the party with the wrong product.

          • 0 avatar
            Pch101

            The other aspect of this is that Opel needs to rebuilt, anyway. It’s a weak brand that will eventually fail if it isn’t moved up the ladder, anyway, so my approach would kill two birds with one stone.

    • 0 avatar
      DeadWeight

      The ultimate irony is that the Buick Regal (aka Opel Insignia) , even as a fwd car, feels more Teutonic, comfortable (that damped, firm yet supple ride quality from thick bushings, etc.) and “premium” than either the ATS or CTS, which feel more like what Korean efforts to reverse engineer and construct a BMW would.

      Stick a V6 in a Regal with AWD, refresh the interior a tad, and it’s a better modern Cadillac than either the ATS or CTS by a wide measure. Add a LWB version to seal the deal, with the extra length going to 2″ to 3″ more rear seat legroom.

  • avatar
    Crosley

    Does anybody really like the alphanumeric naming scheme? Just because something makes sense for the European market that doesn’t have a common language doesn’t mean it makes sense here.

  • avatar

    Also: The ELR is dead: http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2015/04/cadillac-elr-to-be-axed.html

  • avatar
    MrGreenMan

    So, if Cadillac will kindly get out of the way, could they stretch the LaCrosse and bring back the “Super” designation and small block V8 with magic anti-torque-steer things?

  • avatar
    Davekaybsc

    JdN thinking “what worked at Audi must work at Infiniti” shows a fundamental lack of understanding about the differences between the two brands at the time those changes were made, as well as a complete lack of understanding of brand equity in general.

    From the time of its US introduction to the 60 Minutes hit piece, Audi’s model names really didn’t mean anything, and didn’t have much in the way of built up brand value. There was the Audi 80, the 5000, and the car simply called “V8” which I’m not even sure was offered here. After the UA hit piece, Audi’s US sales flat lined, and they renamed the 5000 to the 100 in a desperate attempt to get away from the tarnish associated with the 5000.

    So let’s think about this for a second. Leading up to the time of the A4 replacing the Audi 80 in 1995, Audi has almost zero sales, and zero value associated with its brands, which already switched only a few years earlier. Then comes A4 which puts them back on the map, followed by A6 replacing the 100, and then A8 replacing the V8. Makes total sense across the board.

    In the early 2000s, Nissan was just coming back from near bankruptcy. The Infiniti lineup was either old, lame, or both. Then comes the G35, which was a massive shot in the arm for the company much in the same was the A4 was for Audi a decade earlier. Infiniti spends the next 10 years building brand equity for the G with two very successful model runs, introduces their first competitive midsize with the M, and their first competitive SUV with the FX. So what’s Infiniti to do with all this new found brand equity? Throw it straight in the trash, that’s what!

    Yes, all you valued G customers who’ve been with us for the last decade, please now buy our Q50. Yes I know we had a Q45 which was a big loser, but this isn’t a new replacement for that, it’s the new G! And FX customers, you get.. uhm.. the QX60? Or is it QX70? I don’t know, I can’t remember which one is which. By the way, did we mention that we totally ruined the Q50, and everybody hates it? But first with e-steering! First! Also, please excuse our unfinished, horrible new touch screen system. There’s supposed to be a “wet paint, do not touch” sign on it. Somebody get on that.

    • 0 avatar
      sproc

      FWIW, the Audi 100 was always the 100. They were just called the 5000 in the US until the 4th gen. Rabbit/Golf silliness. Also, the “V8” was definitely sold in the US until the A8 replaced it.

  • avatar
    Hummer

    So the ELR, ATS, CTS, and XTS(given), are dead models, leaving them the Escalade and outdated Equinox thing.

    They simply don’t want to succeed if they’re just going to drop the ATS/CTS without fixing it’s number 1 problem, price. The ATS could also be fixed with the engines going into its platform mate at Chevrolet.

    GM is flopping like a fish in every country it sells vehicles in.

    • 0 avatar
      bomberpete

      Gee uh, way to go Johan.
      – Destroy a dozen years of brand equity in the CTS, however minimal.
      – Kill interest in new V models on the way because Cadillac considers them tainted goods.
      – Telegraph your moves to the media that you’ll orphan the ATS/CTS before you’ve even formulated a successor product plan.
      – Or maybe the telegraphing is DW’s giant 2020 Going Out of Business sale?

      Nice. If this continues, Cadillac dealers (many of whom sell all GM brands) could get together a lynch mob. But should they come for Johan or his bosses?

      • 0 avatar
        DeadWeight

        Shhhhh!

        (ATS & CTS sales will plummet even more like a leaden anvil now that the few prospective buyers of these know resale values will be even more ruthlessly crushed, and it’s not polite to speak of the reality of Cadillac’s current crisis/death spiral.)

      • 0 avatar
        28-Cars-Later

        Bosses.

      • 0 avatar
        Sigivald

        http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2011/01/cadillac-cts-sales-figures.html

        They haven’t sold over 1,700 CTSes a month this year.

        In its glory days they were selling 5 thousand a month, sometimes more.

        What brand equity?

        (At the rate for the first three months of 2015, they won’t sell 20,000 of them this year, even before this news.

        That’s *half* the rate of the first year, before the sales really ramped up.)

  • avatar
    cimarron typeR

    I personally like the ATS , a little bit more rear leg room, Gen 2 CUE-(although they should just rename their infotainment altogether for a fresh start), and a more refined 2.0T w/ 6mt/8sp auto trans. and with a lil bit bigger compressor for a better top end, and domestic appropriate pricing they’d have a winner.
    Then again if they axe it altogether I can enjoy plummeting resale values to buy and modify. 12 sec. 1/4 miles are easily obtained with turbo rebuild and reflash.

  • avatar
    TW5

    I understand the importance of Cadillac’s brand overhaul, particularly since many consumers still think of Cadillac as velour cars for old folks. However, Cadillac’s problems are 95% product. Americans expect Cadillac to be the best and a unique expression of American luxury. If Cadillac isn’t the best, Americans won’t make a purchase.

    Escalade is the best full-size luxury truck. It is an American institution (for better or worse), and it sells. The rest of Cadillac’s lineup lives in the land of misfit toys. Decent cars that are cursed with dysfunctional CUE systems, lack of backseat passenger room, odd powertrains (2.0L turbo CTS?!), or other problems.

  • avatar
    TMA1

    Johan’s gotta be kicking himself for blowing his Q-wad over at Infiniti.

  • avatar
    JEFFSHADOW

    It seems that JdN is really trying to kill Cadillac. Remember how DipSh*t (fake MBA) Ron Zarrella presided over the destruction of Oldsmobile because, as he told John Rock, “I don’t see anything here I like”. This from a jerk who once produced contact lenses!
    GM, get the automotive engineering “generals” in there again.
    Out with Toilet Tissue Brand Managers!
    At least I can enjoy my 2000 Eldorado ETC and 1998 Aurora.
    I spied a forlorn idiot sitting in his disabled ATS coupe (is that the new Eldorado?) a few nights ago. The car simply stopped running and would not start again. Of course it was five months old. . . I just cruised by in my cashmere ETC and reflected how Cadillac is really in the dumps right now.
    My 1956, 1967, 1968 and 1985 Cadillacs had style and presence, both sorely lacking today.

    • 0 avatar
      Sigivald

      Oldsmobile *needed to die*.

      It stood for nothing, and had no place in the GM family.

      (Quick – what does Oldsmobile “mean” as a brand?

      Old people drive it.

      That’s all it means – or “what’s an Oldsmobile?” – to anyone who isn’t at least 60 or A Heavy Duty American Car Guy.)

  • avatar
    smartascii

    If anybody working at Cadillac had any sense, they’d be hard at work on a CUV, styled like a mini-Escalade, to capitalize on the only thing about their brand that creates positive feelings in (some) consumers. Bling-seekers whose cars have to get better than 12MPG or fit in smaller parking places would buy them in droves. And because the people who buy these are image buyers (or else they’d have a Tahoe or Denali), you don’t even have to make it very good! Just make it shiny and pretty, and charge $3000 for optional, huge wheels, or maybe a “TV on every surface” package. Exactly no one wants a Cadillac sedan, so putting energy into those is wasted effort.

  • avatar
    28-Cars-Later

    Since this site also doubles as ATSHate.com, I’ll leave these here:

    30 TSBs for MY14 ATS

    http://www.carcomplaints.com/Cadillac/ATS/2014/tsbs/

    50 TSBs for MY13 ATS

    http://www.carcomplaints.com/Cadillac/ATS/2013/tsbs/

    25 TSBs MY13 CTS (Sigma)

    http://www.carcomplaints.com/Cadillac/CTS/2013/tsbs/

    90 TSBs MY09 CTS (Sigma)

    http://www.carcomplaints.com/Cadillac/CTS/2009/

    Wtf has been going on over there?

    • 0 avatar
      bomberpete

      “NOBODY sweats the recalls like GM”

      I don’t get it either.

      • 0 avatar
        28-Cars-Later

        If you go through them some of them are stupid, but still having 30 already in two model years isn’t great. Having 90 in seven isn’t a point on which to be proud.

        When they Acura TL beak edition launched for 2009, they had 9.

        http://www.carcomplaints.com/Acura/TL/2009/

  • avatar
    Spike_in_Brisbane

    Holden hearse.
    https://lc.com.au/images/tjandrews_hearse.jpg

  • avatar
    Krivka

    Now that can solve a few problems with GM. They can use the Alpha platform and make a serious RWD Chevy and Buick without spending big R&D bucks. Sounds like a win for GM.

  • avatar
    Joss

    Says it all quite beautifully, from the Pete Estes days.. creme puff Chev with extra spot welds.

    Honestly, I really did like the 75 Seville’s looks. Properly proportioned and not some electrolysis-plated barge. Introduced me to terms like twilight sentinel & trumpet horns.

    Still a creme puff Chev with more spot welds…

  • avatar
    wmba

    Cadillac’s recent car sizing has been schizophrenic.

    The CTS was always a bit bigger than a 3 series BMW, more like a 5.

    The ATS was a bit smaller than the new 3 series – inside it’s more like a Golf really.

    The new CT6 is bigger than a 5 series, but not as big as a Siebener.

    I have always assumed they wanted the CTS to look like “more” car in the old Detroit way, and the CT6 seems to be along the same line of reasoning.

    We can assume that the CT8 will be the size of a Maybach rather than an S-Class.

    In any case, excusing the bloat as GM exaggeration, the 528i has a 2.0t, and the E-Class can be equipped with a 2.1l four cylinder diesel. So there is some precedent for a CT6 2.0t.

    However, as everyone has pointed out, CUVs and SUVs are what the general market is turning to, so Cadillac should bring out an XT4 and XT6 forthwith. They’ll sell regardless.

    If anyone really cares.

    • 0 avatar
      28-Cars-Later

      “We can assume that the CT8 will be the size of a Maybach rather than an S-Class”

      So essentially you’ll pay $90K for something about the size of a Deville of which you could have for a song as recently as CY 2011.

      Progress!

      • 0 avatar
        wmba

        It was a tongue-in-cheek comment, but Detroit executives always seem to want to add six inches just to be sure. I quite often see an ATS from our semi rural area. It is driven with even less verve than the average Corolla, allowing me to marvel at the wasted space at both extremities while I wait for a short straight to pass. It may be a lightweight car, but maximizing passenger room seems to have been Job 10. Lazy design compared to the Euros.

        • 0 avatar
          28-Cars-Later

          I agree.

          • 0 avatar
            DeadWeight

            gminside news posted the transcript of their interview of JdN.

            He essentially stated:

            1) XTS goes away in 2019.

            2) ATS & CTS will be phased out and replaced, albeit in different forms, under CT prefix.

            3) There will be an A3 & CLA competitor from Cadillac.

            4) New CUVs from Cadillac are 4 years away.

            What is confounding is that he at least implied that the CT6 is going to essentially be replacing the current CTS, due to some overlap, and that the ATS’s replacement will be made longer to allow for a roomier rear seat.

            I interpret this as the ATS’s replacement becoming the current CTS, in terms of approximate size, just under the CT prefix, so wait…what’s the purpose again?

            Cadillac is an absolute confused mess.

  • avatar
    bd2

    Cadillac execs really bungled the size and packaging of the ATS and CTS in the misguided zeal to overtake 3 and 5 Series in driving dynamics.

    While luxury sedans should no longer be “boat on wheels”, things like interior passenger room and luxury appointment takes more precedence with the typical American buyer.

    The CTS has less room in the rear than the Germans, further exacerbated by the fact that the FWD/AWD XTS at the same price-range offers a good bit more rear passenger room (XTS sales have increased for the year).

    But the situation is even worse for the ATS, which has the skimpiest rear passenger room in the segment and on that basis, is more apt to be compared to the CLA and A3 (which are cheaper).

    In addition, the fool-hardy decision to refer to the midsize Cadillac as the CTS instead of giving it a different moniker just confused 1G/2G CTS owners who, for the most part, were now priced out (due to the CTS moving from the entry-level price-point to the mid-level) and if they wanted to stick with Cadillac, were now given the option of getting the substantially smaller ATS.

    So, positioning the CT6 as a “tweener” (between the 5 and 7 Series) and making the ATS and CTS replacements smaller and moving them down half a segment looks like a good move.

    This way, the Cadillac “compact”/entry-level (the CTS replacement/presumably the CT4) will be among the larger/roomier offerings, as would the ATS replacement/presumably the CT2).

    As for the XTS (wouldn’t count on a good portion of XTS buyers moving to the CT6 since the CT6 starts at a significantly higher price-point), it wasn’t ever a real big seller among commercial/livery fleets.

    For 2013, sales to commercial fleet only made up 4% of XTS sales (about 1,300 out of 32k) and more Audi A6’s went to commercial fleet that year.

  • avatar
    mkirk

    Take this current crop of caddy’s and brand them as LaSalle’s. Then build some real Cadillacs…really high end cars that are truly the standard of the world and built to that standard. The dealers would have the volume stuff to sell and maybe after 20 years Cadillac would mean something again. Do it for many years

  • avatar
    bullnuke

    Cadillac seems to be following the path of Packard. The mark seemed to be doing fairly well as a member of dysfunctional GM until the ’70s when a downturn in volume led to a search for a lesser model to build/maintain volume (re: Clipper, 110/120 Series). Thus began lot of sharing with lesser marks under the GM tent. Lower quality bits and parts from one big bin shared amongst all the GM divisions that made the notorious GM bean-counters happy. Then the badge-engineered models of the ’80s through today (Cimarron, re-badged Saturn Vue, etc.) really secured the loss of status in the marketplace. The current design philosophy is pretty old – somewhere I have my old handout from GMI (the old General Motors Institute) from the early 1960’s when they visited my school, a handout that shows examples of styling that are very close/identical to the Cadillacs currently on sale. It is especially sad that a Chevy Tahoe with a lot of plastic panels attached is a top-selling Cadillac (and using many of those aforementioned styling cues). I agree that Packard had a lot of other things working against it (the history of this brand at the end was pretty sad) but it all pretty much started when a luxury brand began pinching pennies and diluted themselves. If Cadillac wants to regain the old “Standard of the World” moniker, the company needs to be more “Rolls” and less “Chevy”. Gauge a component on its quality, not price, when building the vehicle. People bought these cars for stupid high prices 60 years ago. People will still pay stupid high prices for them today if what is offered isn’t an overpriced Oldsmobile/Buick.

    • 0 avatar
      highdesertcat

      “Cadillac seems to be following the path of Packard.” I disagree. Cadillac will be around forever. They can’t lose. GM has the full faith and credit of the United States behind it. In for a penny – in for a pound!

      • 0 avatar
        bullnuke

        I should’ve been more clear on that – of course they won’t disappear like Packard, highdesertcat; I agree totally with you. GM requires a faux high-end product for the indiscriminate purchaser who lives in the far past. The “Standard of the (GM) World”. Cadillac seems to be the brand of choice for wealthy farmers out here in West-Central Ohio (“I got me one jus like Granpappy!”. Cadillac is just reaping what they’ve sown by cheapening up the brand with left-over Pontiac parts and a plethora of SUV/CUV models on borrowed platforms.

        • 0 avatar
          highdesertcat

          bullnuke, there was a time when Cadillac meant something, the Mark of Excellence, the Standard of the World.

          A lot of people wanted to “someday” own a new Cadillac.

          My dad worked all his life to “someday” own that new Cadillac (Sedan de Ville).

          I believe that there always will be Cadillac buyers, just like you wrote, “Cadillac seems to be the brand of choice for wealthy farmers out here in West-Central Ohio”.

          Just not enough of them to make the Cadillac brand viable and self-sufficient (as in profitable).

          But for my money, I think the luster has come off Cadillac at the same time that the GM was so badly tarnished.

          JdN could very well succeed in outdoing the Germans but that does not necessarily translate into more sales for Cadillac.

          If I ever had that much money, I’d buy a boring Lexus LS460 or an even more staid ES350. Then again, we’re not sedan people….

  • avatar
    VenomV12

    So basically they admitted what people have been saying all along, the ATS and CTS are failures and too small and the CT6 is basically the replacement for the CTS. I think getting rid of the XTS is a mistake though, other than the Escalade, that’s the only Cadillac I actually see in measurable numbers on the road.

  • avatar
    mjz

    Well, it’s 4am, and I can’t sleep, have to attend the funeral this morning of our 38 year old receptionist who died in her sleep after having a stroke. WTF? Anyhow, some great comments about Cadillac and their direction, or perhaps mis-direction. Some micellaneous thoughts:
    -Cadillac’s attemps to out “out-German” the Germans have met with woeful acceptance in the marketplace Yet, they are are hellbent on continuing this ill conceived strategy.
    -The only models in their current line that are selling decently are the Escalade, XTS, and ancient SRX, none of which embody the “out-German” the German strategy. The ATS and repositioned CTS are sales disasters.
    -The new naming strategy is awful, especially when you have some great heritage names you could use instead. Imagine the use of DeVille or Seville instead of CT6.
    -Cadillac needs a new design direction. The new CT6 looks like a bloated ATS. The flagship is supposed to set the design direction, not the entry level model.
    -Their market focus should be on C/SUV’s, where the market is headed, and where they stand a better chance of making inroads.
    -JdN is foolish to announce the demise of the ATS and CTS names prematurely, they are a hard enough sell as it is.

    • 0 avatar
      DeadWeight

      I’m starting something called the Audi A4 & A6 Challenge.

      Here’s how it works.

      Have the average person look at an ATS & Audi A4 side by side, sit in them, drive them, operate the switchgear, take in the gauges, etc.

      Have the average person look at an CTS & Audi A6 side by side, sit in them, drive them, operate the switchgear, take in the gauges, etc.

      Okay.

      Ask them which look more attractive, inside and out, from every angle.

      Tell them to look at the prices – they’ll be shocked to see how Cadillac is as much or more given what I’m about to state.

      90% or more will state that the Audi looks, drives & feels like a much more sophisticated, mature, cohesive, quality vehicle, in every way.

      From the side profile and rear profile, the Audis look 1000% better.

      From the driver’s seat or rear seat, the Audis look 1000% better.

      But it gets worse for Cadillac.

      The A4 & A6 will be refreshed or redesigned soon. This is why there’s cash on the hood for both Audis (they usually don’t discount them much but are doing so given the age).

      A person with good negotiating skills can get into an A4 for around 36k and an A6 for around 42k.

      Since the Cadillacs ride worse, have awful instrument panels/gauges, very cramped rear seats, have ratty dealership experiences, and are hideous & ungainly in terms of exterior aesthetics by comparison, and since Cadillac can’t bother to put a standard V6 (or better yet, V8) in their car lot poison, the Audis positively SHINE by comparison.

      There’s NO reason a logical person would pick the ATS or CTS. There’s also the badge factor.

      And again, Audi will be coming out with a new A4 and A6 long before Cadillac refreshes either the ATS or CTS, yet the A4, especially, now looks absolutely stunning for a entry-level premium sedan.

  • avatar
    Dr.Nick

    Damn, American car companies have trouble committing to the same brand strategy for 4 minutes. How is this supposed to help them carve their own niche from the German? Silly.

    • 0 avatar

      It’s important to remember that American car companies are usually looking for quarterly profits, often at the expense of brand longevity. The Germans, Japanese and Koreans got where they are today through long-term planning, consistency and persistence. GM, et al.? Not so much.


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