By on July 17, 2009

New GM starts . . . when, exactly? [Thanks to TTAC Fan for the link. Blog post courtesy camaro5.com]

Can we get a master list going of all the things people found wrong with the car that QA missed? Let’s keep the list down to just the facts. One of the more common issues found is loose bolts that hold back some type of fluid (ex: oil). I’ll try and go through the posts and edit this post adding everyone’s item making a master list people can print out to take with them and have checked out before they take the ride home. Should help everyone and I hope everyone can chime in here. Especially those that have their ride already and experience problems. Also, pls correct me if I have any mistakes in the list. Thanks.

Also note: This list is mainly a checklist for things wrong that a dealer can immediately fix. A broke transmission or bad driveshaft from dropping the hammer on this beast is something that they won’t know until it actually happens. Thank you for submitting all your issues.


(Print this Excel or Word document so they have a checklist and the mechanic signs off on it.)

The list:
__________________________________________________ _____________________________________________
001. Loose Bolts that hold fluid back causing leaks (ex: on oil pan, tranny fluid)
002. Trunk Locking mechanism (issues with opening w/o adding down pressure to top of trunk first and/or emergency release appears to be loose keeping the trunk from locking properly)
003. Loose plastic paneling around the 4-gauges cluster, launch control, cigarette power plug as well as Left and Right A-Pillars Trim Loose, sill trim loose, and dash pannel where doors and dash meet popping open.
004. Loose Spoiler/installed correctly (Re-torque Spoiler bolts)
005. Wiper transmission cable overheating from engine causing a short circuit.
006. Matching Headlight Halos strength. (one defective being dimmer then the other).
007. Mismatched paint on parts of the vehicle (including gas door). As well as paint runs or clear coat runs. Paint Chips.
008. Loose Rocker Panel “Chevrolet” causing it to peel off.
009. Minor Problem With Window Indexing.
010. Ambient Lighting on doors defective.
011. Bad radiator (leaks).
012. Hood release/latch issues (won’t unhook to open the hood).
013. Gap at base of ONStar Antenna.
014. Battery cable routing near the starter has been done.
015. Digital Speedometer is off. Also keeps going on and off.
016. Bottom pulley shakes and needs replacement per dealer.
017. Broken tranny.
018. Ignition Mechanism Issue with key getting stuck in car.
019. Non RS taillights installed on RS equipped cars (all 4 of them).
020. Rocker Panel aligned with body and clipped in correctly.
021. Bumper rubs with body
022. Trunk opens with switch and remote
023. Correct speedo/tach gauge ring color
023. Ambient lighting on drivers door as bright as passenger door
024. Doors gaps /alignment
025. Dirt/bubbles in rally stripes
026. Door panel not scratched from seat belt.
027. Shift knobs wearing out extremely fast could be faulty material
028. AC system stops blowing cold air in random durations, most likely blockage in AC drainage and/or AC draining into the car instead of beneath it
029. Clunking noise in changing gears
030. Trunk opens with remote and laser cut key
031. USB drive and aux port works
032. Squeaky Breaks
033. GFX installed correctly
034. Rims and tires in good condition (coming off carrier in bad condition/damaged)
035. Check for damage in the interior, basic procedure
036. Check the locking mechanism of both doors
037. Scraping sound for a second when backing up
038. SS emblem on trunk is loose
039. Loose interior windshield trim loose
040. The front GFX lip is not coming loose at the double sided tape
041. The front passenger brake rotors are not wearing with a dark colored groove
042. Hood latch handle on inside of cab doesn’t retract properly (just hangs)
043. Scratches in seats
044. Oil cooler leaking
045. Once in every 10-15 times I unlock the car, the drivers side door is still locked, while
the locking knob on the door is in the “up” position
046. Faulty as gauge (improper readings)
047. Missing paint around the headlights
048. Bleed screw on clutch slave cylinder loose
049. Stickers on rockers peeling
050. Scratches on window pillars
051. Misaligned body & door panels as well as hood not centered properly (more to one side then the other)
052. Alignment of doors to dash interior the door interior seems to sag below the dash interior
053. Drivers side roof light( the one with the toggle switch) only works when its toggled over to the passenger side
054. Door sill decals peeling up
055. Paint swirls in driver/passenger door
056. Drive-shaft connection to the differential cracking when dropping the clutch
057. Tach Needle Sticking
058. Wiper motor wiring comes through bottom of the cowling-well in front of the driver. (The fix (decided upon between the dealer and myself) was to re-insulate the wires, cover the harness with a hard, slick plastic covering, drill a small hole in the bottom of the cowling-well (fill the hole with silicone) and use a cable tie down like the rest of the wiper harness uses to secure the harness to the floor of the cowling (the grommet will collapse downward with little force), far away from harm from the wiper arms.)
059. engine makes continuous clicking noise, starting roughly 5 seconds after engine starts
060. Door Sill plates wrinkled on outside edges (both sides)
061. Trunk gasket at bottom of rear window coming off
062. Uneven Dash (driver’s side dash is lower then passenger’s side)
063. Passenger/Driver’s side Fender alignment off. (wheel cover well had to come off, then loosen fender bolt, and it pops right in place)
064. Key won’t stay in folded position
065. Faulty Tail lights.

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48 Comments on “Camaro5: Camaro Customer’s Pre-Delivery Checklist...”


  • avatar
    dwford

    I thought when I clicked through I’d be looking at the typical pre delivery checklist. But, no. Sadly, it is a list of actual factory defects GM dealers are expected to cover up. Nice.

  • avatar
    mculbert

    Wow, that’s quite a list.

    Nobody sweats the details like GM!

  • avatar
    folkdancer

    Now I know why the Camaro looks like the grinning cat in Alice in Wonderland.

  • avatar
    Samuel L. Bronkowitz

    Avoiding obvious opportunities for sarcasm here, the truth is “new GM” can’t really start until all the old, diseased ways of doing things are flushed out of the system. Assuming that can happen at all, it’ll certainly take years. Of course the Camaro is stricken with this kind of nonsense. It is a product of “old GM.”

    It would be interesting to see a defect list for a new car from Honda or Toyota, just for sake of comparison…

  • avatar
    ajla

    I’m glad to see that the new Camaro’s initial quality is IROC-a-rific.

  • avatar
    Johnny Canada

    What the hell did these customers think they were buying?

    It’s a car from a bankrupt automaker screwed together by bitter CAW employees, funded by tax payer dollars.

  • avatar
    menno

    Samuel said “It would be interesting to see a defect list for a new car from Honda or Toyota, just for sake of comparison…”

    OK, then, your wish is my pleasure.

    2002 Hyundai Sonata delivered new: No defects on delivery. Over 72,000 miles, two problems occurred, all taken care of by the dealer through the regular and extended warrantee with zero deductible. (Rear brakes smelled; pads replaced. Mystery no-start problem at 70,000 miles; master computer replaced).

    2005 Toyota Prius delivered new: No defects on delivery. Over 48,000 miles (at about 40,000 miles) the HID headlamp self-levelling went to default – a wire had rubbed and had to be replaced. That was the ONLY FAULT the car had in three years.

    2007 Hyundai Sonata delivered new: No defects on delivery. No problems or issues over 22,000 miles. None. Oh; I forgot something. When in my house, I would bump the remote control in my pockets, the damn car would lock (being in the attached garage) which annoyed me. Car companies need to put a flip over the buttons like a cell phone. (This is not just a Hyundai issue). Is that a “fault”?

    2008 Toyota Prius delivered new: No defects on delivery. Now has 29,000 miles on it. Zero problems. ZERO PROBLEMS.

    2009 Hyundai Sonata delivered new. No defects on delivery. No issues as of yet, the car just turned 4800 miles.

    The Camaro “check-list” reads like a horror story of a 1958 EDSEL. Not even the abysmal 1970’s cars built by drug addled UAW members, were that bad. I used to read all of the car magazines incuding Popular Science and Popular Mechanics, in which the magazine reported on thousands of buyer’s experiences with different brands of new cars. The 1950’s and 1970’s were awful; but not THAT awful (as the list above shows).

    EPIC FAIL for GM whether “new” or “old”.

  • avatar
    toddst

    I’ve worked for both a GM dealer and now at a Toyota dealer. The Camaro list seems extreme for even a GM car! As for any new Toyota “menno” is right- they are pretty much defect free from the start. I’m truly amazed how trouble free the Hybrids are.

  • avatar
    asphaise

    Irony at its best. A list detailing poor quality control that is riddled with typos, poor spelling, and punctuation errors.

  • avatar
    Prado

    Samuel L. Bronkowitz :
    It would be interesting to see a defect list for a new car from Honda or Toyota, just for sake of comparison…

    The forums on Edmunds.com are great resource for seeing how many and what type of issues people are having with their new cars, especially the high volume imports like Camry & Accord. There were a lot of transmission issues with the launch of the current generation Camry & ES350.

    I love the new Camaro but it shows that GM still has problems delivering high initial quality on the launch of new vehicles. Maybe the new GM should rename themselves Microsoft Motors!

  • avatar

    I’ve been buying GM vehicles new for years and come from a GM/Big Three family. All of my purchases and the ones in my family have been perfect, that is until I got my G8 GXP a month ago.

    The driver’s door was noticably misaligned, the sport shift function on the transmission didn’t work, and the map lights also didn’t work.

    I bought the car online from another state sight unseen otherwise I would have noted these things and gone elsewhere. But I will say that my local Pontiac dealer has been exemplary and they fixed all the issues no problem, no sweat and gave me a new Silverado Crew Cab loaner for the day. I’ve since put 3,000 miles on it since with no issues. The other vehicles I have purchased online without looking at them have been fine.

    My 2006 GTO I got had no issues either and only 1 warranty claim (faulty front Monroe struts) in the three years and 30k miles I owned it. My 2008 G8 GT I purchased a year ago (and traded in for the GXP) also had no issues whatsoever in the time I owned it and the 10k miles I put on it.

    You can read any enthusiast site for a specific car and they all have lists of common things to look for when buying them new or used, it doesn’t mean that absolutely every last one of them is full of defects or that they are unreliable cars.

    GTOs and G8s have a similar lists on their respective forums but my purchases were both perfect and the cars have given me excellent service. My issues with the GXP were not common but were addressed just fine by the dealer and without a hassle. The car is certainly worth more in the joy of owning and driving it than anything Hyundai makes and I’m not too concerned about it’s longevity. I’ve had numerous GM cars that have gone nearly 200k miles without issues.

    The worst car I know of in my immediate family was my father’s BMW 750iL he purchased new in 2001. The car had defects since new and always had to have something fixed on pretty much every maintence visit. But you know what? He still loved the car, despite it’s flaws (some of them not so minor) he enjoyed the comfort and dynamics of it.

    Sometimes people see cars as more than just an appliance to get them somewhere, some people want a car that engages them. A traditional BMW is that kind of a car, so is a muscle car like the Camaro.

    Yeah, it’d be nice if there wasn’t a “list” for the Camaro. But if I wanted one and found one at a dealer that had none of the defects others have noticed on theirs it sure wouldn’t stop me from buying a good example.

  • avatar
    NulloModo

    Regarding number 32 – which part of the car is the ‘squeaky’ and what happens when it breaks?

    Also, number 39 – one would think the proper state of the ‘loose interior windshield trim’ would be loose. Should it be tight like the ‘tight interior windshield trim’ ?

  • avatar
    jmo

    I’ve had numerous GM cars that have gone nearly 200k miles without issues.

    200k miles with all its original parts with the exception of brakes tires and shocks?

    Somehow I think you’re lying.

  • avatar
    FrankCanada

    2002 Hyundai Sonata – (#1) NHTSA Recall 09V124000 – Suspension – Consequence of Defect – “Seperation of forward mounting of lower control arm may increase the risk of a crash”

    (#2) NHTSA Recall 04V178000 – Fuel Tank Assembly Valve – Consequence of Defect – “Fuel Spillage in the presence of ignition source may result in a fire”

    Hyundai=Quality?

    1986 Hyundai Excel – (#1) NHTSA Recall 86V043000 -Brake Linkage Cotter Pin – Consequence of Defect – The clevis pin may slide out causing the master cylinder/brake pedal linkage to become disengaged. (!) iF THIS LINKAGE BECOMES DISENGAGED THE SERVICE BRAKES CANNOT BE APPLIED, CREATING THE RISK OF A CRASH without prior warning.

    (#2)-This includes Mitshitbishi Precis – NHTSA Recall 91V22500 Flamible air filter – Consequence of Defect – “The melting plastic air filter case may lead to a fire in the engine compartment.”

    The more things change the more they stay the same.

    On the next truthaboutaisiancarmythUSA Toyota Recalls – Go! unoriginal no effort no soul lets see what fat Americans will consider quality Go!

  • avatar

    And here I thought the C6 Corvette flying roof fiasco was pretty shameful…

  • avatar
    quiksilver180

    Four vehicles currently in our family:

    2002 Chevy Suburban – Now at 100k miles. No real problems until 38k miles – making a 70 mile trip from a rural town to the city… the transmission wouldn’t shift into 3rd gear and would not go past 50 MPH about 40 miles into the trip. Took it to the dealer and found out 3rd gear was missing. Gone. Took them well over two weeks to find out that it was a manufacturing problem and was built incorrectly.

    The Suburban was transported to multiple repair locations in Oregon for various checks during this time. The cost was going to be above $3000. Instead, we politely talked to the regional manager who was in town for the day and explained the problem. They gratefully covered $2800 of the cost since it was just out of warranty and we agreed to pay for the 36k mile tune up. Even though it was a slight annoyance and technically wasn’t completely our fault, they weren’t obligated to cover the repair. Happy ending.

    2006 Subaru Impreza 2.5i – 25k and no problems.

    2007 Chevy Silverado 2500 HD – 15k miles and no problems. Considering this was the first year of the model refresh and no problems, this is quite encouraging!

    2007 Subaru Impreza WRX STI Limited – 52k and no problems. About 2k, the parking brake needed a light adjustment. Other than the car being brake and tire hungry (every 25k-30k miles), the car has been wonderful!

    We’ve had Hondas, a Chrysler minivan (awful), and various GM vehicles, and now Subarus. GM can make a quality product if they put their efforts towards it… though considering their speciality is trucks.

  • avatar
    ambulancechaser

    Oh come on! Give poor new GM a break. It’s not like they’ve had a lot of time to work on getting this car right since we first saw it as a concept or anything. Oh wait, they have.

  • avatar
    twotone

    I lived and work in Moscow from 1992 to 1998. Bought a new Lada Zhiguli 06 for about $6,000 USD. A one year-old Lada was worth more than a new one as the owner fixed everything that was wrong with the car when it left the factory.

    Twotone

  • avatar
    John P

    Amazing. I wonder if the Camero QC team was made up of SSR geniuses who of course no longer had any function after GM abruptly discontinued that wet dream. How many years ago did they first show prototypes of this car? Five? No excuse works for this crapl. And now the SS is on indefinite hold because they break parts when launched hard? This checklist looks like something a used car manager would use before trying to pedal a Camero from Chevy’s last failed ponycar effort. It’s reported they are selling 1,000 Cameros a month and beating the Mustang. Check that figure a year from now. Also check insurance costs once a track record is established. Rear visibility is almost non-extstent. Try looking over the steering wheel at what’s ahead. It’s difficult to know where the front stops because you can’t see the front of the car. I believe this car will have a high rate of collision accidents. Does anyone have a similar list for the Mustang?

  • avatar
    boosterseat

    I think many of these are fussy/conjecture, but even if half have been experienced by early owners, this list stands as the mother of all red flags for anyone thinking of a purchase. Good god, there are as many items to check as there are parts!
    I’d love to see a buyer doing a walk-around of a NEW car with this list. Kiss your pride good bye! The salesman would be gone by item 10.
    This should be printed out and posted at every stage in the factory, along with all of the other inevitable, similar memos.
    Also – Johnny Canada :
    What the hell did these customers think they were buying? It’s a car from a bankrupt automaker screwed together by bitter CAW employees, funded by tax payer dollars.
    Too true, expectations should be very low, as should the price.

  • avatar
    Campisi

    Can we get a master list going of all the things people found wrong with the car that QA missed?

    For those who seem to lack reading comprehension, this is an aggregate list of every defect any forum member that bought one of these has found on their car. Many seem to be understanding it as a list of what is wrong with each car, either mistakenly or (for whatever reason) willingly. Think of it as a grab bag: the average Camaro at a dealership is going to have between zero and two or three of these issues, and most of those issues are going to involve some sort of fluid drip. It’s the first year of a car from a company lacking a stellar history of quality and experiencing a highly turbulent period, so I’m not particularly surprised that there are issues. Besides, a considerable portion of this list includes basic things that you would check when buying any car, such as little scuffs, scratches, and damage suffered during transport.

  • avatar
    Matt51

    I have had GM cars go nearly 200,000 miles, no major problems, including a 1994 Pontiac Transport with the 3800 engine, and a 1989 Buick Lesabre with a 3800 engine. I sold both in good working condition, so who knows how many miles they actually went. I know people with GM trucks who have gone 200,000 miles no major problems. I think it is more the rule than the exception for most any GM V8 or 3800 engine/transmission combination.
    I don’t care if a new car has problems, as long as the dealer fixes them with no hassle. I also know a retiree from a NY Bank (Bob, retired to Florida) they gave him a new BMW as a retirement gift. Blew the head gasket just off warranty, dealer charged him $6,000 in repairs. He traded it for a new Mustang – a wise man.

  • avatar

    Campisi
    this is an aggregate list of every defect any forum member that bought one of these has found on their car.

    Yep. I wish they’d told how many different readers had listed each complaint and given an average complaint per car. That would be a lot more telling than just a laundry list of what they complained about. But still, considering how few Camaros have been sold so far, that’s still a pretty dismal list of problems for a car they’re pushing as the face of the “new” Chevrolet.

    No one complained about the Camaro’s biggest defect – the squinty-faced, bloated, quasi-69 Camaro styling that makes it looks like some kind of oversized Hot Wheels/Transformer toy you’d find in a box of cereal. Of course, anyone who recognized that defect wouldn’t buy one in the first place.

  • avatar
    Detroit-X

    If you document singular items of thousands of new owners, yes, you’ll have quite a list. This applies to cars, houses, toasters, computers. Stuff happens, then it’s fixed; why are cars supposed be perfect? Where is the list of other brands for comparison? Maybe this list is the best launch performance of all of them. Let’s see the comparisons, and then judge.

    Post year 2000, GM vehicle have been very good and getting better, even with cash dwindling, while God’s brands, Toyota/Honda, have been declining while they are flush with cash. Eveyone seems to agree that the Germans and others are such a false quality image, that they’re rarely mentioned in a positive manner anymore.

    Sheesh.

  • avatar
    shaker

    Remember, the Camaro5 forums are full of fanboys, but the pickiest fanboys ever, as many of them pre-ordered their cars and became impatient during the wait. This gave them the attitude that “They have had plenty of time to get this right”, so even minor defects found on almost any car are all the more glaring.

    GM complicity in this debacle was excessive hype, raising buyer’s expectations to a high level.

  • avatar
    DweezilSFV

    “Ignition mechanism issue with key getting stuck in car” : sounds like a first year ION. And second and third and….

    Since [according to my research] the Cobalt uses the same switch as well as the Colorado/Canyon pickup how many years has GM had to get this one item right ?

    There is even a “Pass Lock By-Pass” kit available for this miserable mechanism.

    That switch should never have been used once GM found that they were faulty in the ION back in 2003! At that point whatever had been ordered should have been destroyed, much less used in other cars and other model years. The one in my 2005 ION was replaced five times. Looks like they’re still using the POS in the Camaro. Have fun with that.

    Bumper rubbing body? How about trunk lid scuffing back bumper, also a common ION problem.

    Funny thing though; I like the car in spite of the NA GM-ness baked into it. There is actually a pretty good car underneath.

    Shaker: great observation.

    PS: If your ignition switch gets stuck [at least in the ION] you can stick your finger up behind the steering wheel [there’s a vanity panel you have to remove] and diddle the switch and the key will come out. On the automatic. Or turn the key “on” and wait 10 or 15 minutes and the car will start. Or not.

    Even my old 84 Citation and 86 Calais never failed to start.

  • avatar
    golden2husky

    It would be interesting to see a defect list for a new car from Honda or Toyota, just for sake of comparison……

    That’s a pretty sad list, but lets also take into account of who made it. That Camaro site is no doubt filled with people who are very critical, more so that your average car owner. Not that this excuses defects, but many of those “defects” listed would not be noticed by your average car buyer, certainly not the appliance class vehicle purchaser who buys Camrys. I’d be willing to bet that if I went to a Toyota dealer and went over the Camry stock with the fine tooth comb that the Camaro5 group did, I would come up with a pretty big list too. Of course it would not be as big as this, but helps to keep things in perspective. It is unfortunate for GM that they are not paying better attention because the country’s eyes are on the company now…what a great marketing tool it would been to have stories in the media about how great this new car is, rather than lists of defects caused by running the line flat out to meet demand…GM is not doubt just happy that they have to run the line flat out…

  • avatar
    Tommy231

    Yes the new Camaro having such a list is unfortunate. However, we’re talking about a car that is made by a company that went bankrupt. The people buying Camaros are looking for defects, as they should be. I bet they still like the car, even with all its defects.

    The various comments about good cars from other companies reminds me of a fundamental problem with most so-called quality surveys… I’ll call it “the owner’s propensity to complain”. That effect never seems to get quantified. No offense intended here, but if you’re the kind of person that buys a Toyota Prius or a Hyundai whatever, you probably don’t even know what to look for to complain about, and if you did find something, unless it prevented the vehicle from being the appliance it was meant to be, you’d probably just shrug it off. If you buy a BMW 7 series, you are inherently meticulous and you’ll keep going back to the dealer until the car is perfect. If you think your new Kia is perfect, let me inspect it for you. I guarantee you that I’ll find a few things wrong with it.

  • avatar
    paris-dakar

    “Ignition mechanism issue with key getting stuck in car” : sounds like a first year ION. And second and third and….

    That’s a Shifter issue. Specifically, out-of-spec components/poorly done tolerance stack-up.

    Ion and Camaro Shifters are probably made by the same shitty Asian Supplier. The Chinese (and Koreans) are notorious for not doing detailed stack-ups.

  • avatar

    @DweezilSFV:

    The trunklid scuffing the back bumper is also a common G6 issue. The “solution” involves adjusting the trunklid so that, when closed, it’s misaligned with the rest of the car (but no longer hits the bumper when closing).

  • avatar
    menno

    Well, FrankCanada, by your definition, then, the YUGO cars are the absolute best ever sold in North America.

    You see, Malcolm Bricklin (the man behind Yugo imports) once bragged that during all the years he imported Yugos, they NEVER had one single recall.

    To my mind, a recall isn’t the issue. It’s how the company AND the dealer handle the recall.

    twotone, I lived in the UK and bought two new UK specification Lada (old style 2105 type) sedans, new. The British import centre (as they spell it) essentially was akin to a CKD plant, except that the cars arrived CBU (completely built up) and were essentially “rebuilt” right – individually. The new 1987 1200cc had 4 speeds, 4.30 axle and a vinyl interior including floor mats, cost the equivalent of $5000 US. The new 1990 1300cc had cam belt (quieter), 5 speeds (quieter), 4.10 axle and a cloth interior with carpet, cost the equivalent of $5000 US.

    All four tyres on both cars essentially automatically let down within 50 miles of one another at about 20,000 miles. The Russian inner tubes would just “go”. The other very typical problem was the Russian bearing under the distributor – both went in the first 6-9 months and were replaced on warrantee with German made specialty replacement parts commissioned by Lada UK. Why they didn’t simply put the parts in at the UK import centre, I can’t say. Perhaps only 1/3 of them “let go” in the warrantee period (?) Oh yes, one of the Bulgarian batteries (I think it was the 1990 car) just quit; it was replaced on warrantee. And the exhaust pipe rubbed on delivery on that car; the dealer adjusted it.

    Other than that, the cars were trouble free. Considering what they were, and what they cost, it wasn’t all that bad. In fact, my neighbours (who mostly had cars paid for by their employers and thus had Belgian, German and British cars with British name tags such as Vauxhall, Ford, and Rover) generally had more problems with their cars than we did! In fact, I read the other day that in countries in which both are sold, the Jaguar is known to be more problematical than the Lada! (They are no longer imported into the UK).

  • avatar
    97escort

    I’m not surprised. Never buy a new model just out. And never buy sight unseen. I made those mistakes with my GMC Canyon. The list of defects on my Canyon is almost as long as for the Camaro.

    I fixed most of them myself after going to a GM dealer and being told “GM knows about it.”
    But some of electronic defects I still haven’t fixed. I put black electrical tape over the erroneous messages flashing in front of me. I just put up with a driver’s power window and power door locks that work only occasionally.

    The safest thing is don’t buy GM. My Vibe has been just fine but it is really a Toyota.

  • avatar
    mikey

    A non GM neighbor of my buddy got his new Camaro a
    month ago. Three of us retirees with nearly a 100 total years experience went over it. One guy has spent his entire carrer in paint. He found swirls and some orange peel. I woudn’t have picked up on it. I spent 17 years in final assembly and 20 in stamping. I didn’t like the left hand fender to door fit. The right hand door had a minor low and the left 1/4 had a down ding. The other guy had done 20 years in trim and hardware,he couldn’t find a flaw.

    Most of the stuff we picked up on, the average joe would never spot.

    Just to shatter some myths. The CAW guys are not bitter. Most of them are overjoyed to have been awarded a vehicle such as the Camaro. A lot of posters here have no idea,how much the people on the floor want the customer to be pleased with thier purchase.

    Hourly and salary folks are painfully aware of previos mistakes. We know only too well of the buyers that shun GM, and we know why.

    The Camaro’s and Impala’s coming out of Oshawa are as good or better than any other manufacture
    out there.

    OK.. Far be it from me to question spelling. But to set the record straight Camaro has one O and and zero E’s

  • avatar

    mikey,

    I worked in a DuPont paint lab for 21 years. You’re going to find some orange peel on at least one vertical surface on just about any mass produced car made.

    The worst paint I ever saw was on an Olds Toronado on a dealer showroom floor in the early 1990s. Terrible orange peel, numerous fisheyes and even visible dirt in the paint.

    For the most part, though, modern automotive finishes are very durable and look great. Usually problems show up when the assembly plant is trying to save money, either not flushing the lines frequently enough, or trying to get by with less paint. Remember, painting is one of the most expensive parts of building a car. The paint itself can cost hundreds, even thousands of dollars a gallon and the paint shops are very expensive to build and maintain. So it’s natural to try to save money on that step. I remember the Kentucky Ford truck plant building the Super Duty F series trucks once experimented with using less primer and more topcoat – to the point where the paint was dripping and sagging down the door panels.

    As far as GM, Ford & Chrysler are concerned, all quality problems are the vendors’ faults.

  • avatar
    John P

    Ronnie Schreiber :

    You obviously know more than most about painting cars but I see quite a few fairly new cars with splotches of missing clearcoat. I think this speaks to lack of durability of today’s paint processes. The clearcoat problem ranges from a lot of Asian makes to American, particularly GM cars, and European brands including BMWs. The basecoat/clearcoat process has done wonders for miminum maintence owners and I guess the environment. It becomes a expensive nightmare when the clear starts flaking off.

  • avatar
    dkulmacz

    Holy moley . . . if this list is accurate, this is very, very sad.

    ‘Now’ GM could certainly take a minor lump and ‘undo’ the OK to ship milestone until these kinds of problems are all found, fixed, and eeeliminated by the launch team. Better to delay — or even recant — your launch then ship this many defects, on this car, at this oh-so-critical point in their future (if they have one).

    The world is an imperfect place, and the first new vehicle off a line will never be great, no matter who is the manufacturer. But a smart company will plan for this, and work around the clock to find these things and fix them — until the product and process are as near to perfect as they can make them — before shipping crap to customers.

    I’m really disappointed to hear this. I bet a bunch of poor engineers busting their nuts 24/7 at the plant are as well. They’re probably running ragged trying to fix the issues, but the company doesn’t seem to have their back. All their work will be diminished because it won’t prevent a ruined vehicle reputation, which it could have if the launch was handled right.

    Lay this blame at the feet of whomever is running the place *now*.

    I’ve read a lot of armchair engineering here, and a lot of it is way off base. Same with a lot of the armchair CEO’ing. And it’s true that product decisions, engineering decisions, strategic decisions may have been made months or years ago and be water under the bridge. But regardless of what else happens, someone near the top can simply say “We will *not* ship crap” and then not ship it until it’s not crap. But apparently the need to hold to a scheduled date (or the need to get the revenue dollars into the till immediately) were pushed above “we will *not* ship crap” as an objective. No one seems to have had the balls to do the right thing.

    Sad.

  • avatar
    John R

    Checklist for the Genesis Coupe 2.0t/3.8:

    That is all.

  • avatar
    Dukeboy01

    It’s the first model year of a brand new platform. There’s gonna be a lot of issues with the first year of any brand new model, I don’t care what the manufacturer is.

    Case in point: When the Honda Accord was redesigned for the 2003 model year, my department bought several of them to be assigned to detectives as replacements for Crown Vics. Four of them were assigned to detectives in my section. Three out of the four had the lights in the center console radio and HVAC cluster go out. Honda eventually had to issue a recall on them.

    Some of these complaints are silly gripes, IMO, that don’t have anything to do with GM QC at the factory. If the knuckledragger driving the transport truck scratches the car when he’s dropping it off, that’s hardly the factory’s fault. Camaro5 is a pretty good group for fans (I’m a member myself) but you do get to hear about every horror story and gripe about this car. I figure a lot of it will be sorted out as more cars get delivered.

  • avatar
    OldWingGuy

    I agree with Dukeboy above. I have a 2003 Accord with the same center console lights that are dead. Radio still works, you just have no idea what station you are on, etc. And its no longer covered by the recall.
    My Accord could easily top the new Camaro in defects: center console lights mentioned above, peeling fake chrome on interior door handles, too many rattles to mention, cruise control intermitent failure, etc.
    But it still starts and runs (>200k km) and by now is fully depreciated so I will drive it till it stops and then push it into a ditch.
    I’ve noticed that my older well running Hondas were all made in Japan. My two newer ones (an Accord and a Civic) were all junk and built in North America.
    So next time I will consider a GM. If the quality is going to be crappy anyway, I might as well save a few thousand $.
    Or I will check the VIN and make sure it was built in Japan…

  • avatar
    Dukeboy01

    I forgot about the peeling chrome on the door handles. My buddy’s wife sliced the bejeezus out of her finger on it. That was a huge design and manufacturing flaw on that model year.

  • avatar
    ra_pro

    Rather negative review of the RS in Canadian Driver.

    Strangely, he doesn’t even mention performance in his 3-day test review; I take it it’s nothing to write about. Main issues all design related and all inside the car.

  • avatar
    John P

    Even though they didn’t exactly rush the new Camero to market, maybe they should have taken another five years to sort this piece of shit out. While Ford had concept cars called Mustang traveling the auto show circuit in the early sixties, those cars were two seaters and didn’t have much in common with the final Mustang in 1964. Seems like I read where it only took Ford six months to actually design, tool test, and build the first Mustangs they sold. I know … different times, and Big Brother wasn’t sticking his nose into everything like today. Nonetheless, I’ll bet the defect list wasn’t even close to something like this. GM should go into the Yugo business.

  • avatar
    FloorIt

    OT.
    9000 Camaro sales in June times 12 months = 108,000 annual sales. If that happens I’ll eat my shorts.
    I wonder what the annual sales have to be before they deep six it. The last generation Camaro was dropped because sales from years 2000+ were only 40,000 or so compared the the highs of 200,000+ annual sales in the early and mid eighties.

  • avatar
    quovadis

    @ Prado… Looks like a Windows ME version of a car – can’t be fixed with an update.

  • avatar
    mikey

    @ John P You refer to the Camaro as a “piece of shit” Did you base your views on extensive and carefull scrutiny? Did you take it for a ride? Did you talk to an owner? A real close look,at perhaps, the name plate may give you some insight into the correct spelling of Camaro.

  • avatar
    John P

    mikey,

    I base my views on driving a new Camaro for two days around Southern California. The car was an SS with automatic transmission so I didn’t need to speak with an owner, which happened to be General Motors. In the POS category, the biggest offender is visibility. Backing out of a parking space is an adventure and one must hope approaching traffic stops, because it’s difficult to see rearward. Looking out the front of the car, it’s difficult to judge where the front of the car is though with practice people will get used to this. At around 4000 lbs. the car is waaaay (I know it’s misspelled) too heavy and slower than I expected even in SS trim. The interior reflected some of the misalignments and quality issues reflected in the checklist but at least the dash seemed level. And it had rattles.

    I have owned new Corvettes dating back to BB 427s, had two C4 ZR-1s and currently own a new Z06 so I’m certainly not biased against GM. There are likely many out there who think Corvettes are pieces of shit but I don’t really care. I don’t make payments, and I love the car.

    Back to the Camaro (that means “friend” in French – right??), to me it is a modified Pontiac G8 with a retro body. How could this car take so long to come to market? Given a choice between the three ponycar offerings, I would buy the Mustang because I believe it’s a better car, and I’ve long since stopped worrying about who gets to the next red light first.

  • avatar
    joeaverage

    Johnny Canada: What the hell did these customers think they were buying?

    It’s a car from a bankrupt automaker screwed together by bitter CAW employees, funded by tax payer dollars.

    Sounds like a Soviet-era car factory doesn’t it?

  • avatar
    joeaverage

    menno : Samuel said “It would be interesting to see a defect list for a new car from Honda or Toyota, just for sake of comparison…”

    2002 Hyundai Sonata delivered new: No defects on delivery…

    Okay – I can play too.

    1999 Honda CR-V EX 5 speed. Delivered to us new with two defects. The left rear wheel needed the camber adjusted, Visually out of whack. Rear hatch strut leaking oil.

    Currently has 180,000 miles on it. I have replaced the front brake pads replaced twice, rotors once, radiator leaked so I replaced that, .5 lb of Freon along the way, tires about every 60K miles. Never had the manufacturer’s recall on the ignition switch performed. In fact after the initial purchase fixes listed above it has never been touched by anyone but me. Not even for an alignment which remains perfect. Yes the tire store has rotated the tires and installed new tires for me.

    Paint is still good, interior is still perfect. Original muffler, struts, axles, bearings, etc. Some scratches and dings from carelessness.

    Finishing a timing belt replacement this morn. Have replaced the timing belt, cam seals, crank seals and drive belts just in case. Ought to replace the water pump b/c it would be a real hassle if it gave up but so far so good. This is the third timing belt.

    This is about the fifth Honda product we’ve owned – cars, motorcycles and a generator. I would buy their products again without reservations.

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