By on September 9, 2016

 

TTAC Commentator Kurt_B writes:

Hi TTAC. I’m a long time reader and member. My four-year-old Mustang hood is peeling. Ford does not cover this issue outside of the three-year comprehensive warranty, and even when repaints are authorized they don’t last. This is a very common issue that has to do with poor paint adhesion to aluminum. I’m pretty sure we’re going to see peeling 2015+ F150s in a few years with their aluminum panels.

For Sajeev: A lot of owners buy aftermarket fiberglass hoods (Cervini, etc). Others have their factory hoods repainted, which may or may not last. One shop I went to suggested vinyl-wrapping the hood — something I really don’t want to do to a four-year-old car.

I had a thought to copy the invisible bra concept and wrap the front of the hood only with 8 mm black vinyl (if that exists…it’s the thickness of the clear wrap). I think the normal non protective vinyl is 4 mm.
What are your (and the community’s) thoughts on this?

Sajeev answers:

Kurt, fear not for the new F-150: painting aluminum hoods is nothing new to Ford.  My 1983 Continental has such a hood, the Wixom Plant did a fantastic job applying base/clear paint on this aluminum-steel-plastic flagship.  Its paint didn’t fail until the mid-90s, but that’s not the point: contaminated aluminum hoods have a simple — if costly — repair. Per Ford’s TSB 04-25-1:

“Some vehicles may exhibit a bubbling or blistering under the paint on aluminum body parts. This is due to iron contamination of the aluminum panel.”

I’ll totally overlook the legal ramifications, focusing on the here and now: per TSB, this problem has a logical diagnosis and a fair solution. I reckon that any body shop collision repair center certified to straighten the body of an aluminum-clad Euro import, F-150 or Corvette Z06 is up to the task. The stereotypical body shop won’t cut it, but a list of local I-Car Gold Glass centers is a good starting point. Ask about their aluminum repair credentials.

Choose the best facility for your budget and make this problem a distant memory. The sooner you repair the Mustang, the sooner you heal.

[Image: Ford]

Send your queries to [email protected]com. Spare no details and ask for a speedy resolution if you’re in a hurry…but be realistic, and use your make/model specific forums instead of TTAC for more timely advice. 

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104 Comments on “Piston Slap: Peeling Ponies and Contaminated Aluminum Hoods...”


  • avatar
    JimZ

    “Kurt, fear not for the new F-150: painting aluminum hoods is nothing new to Ford.”

    well, then someone should figure out why the Mustang team f***ed up so badly, because corrosion and paint bubbling on the 2005-2014 Mustang hood is widespread. And if you check some of the Mustang forums, the response varies wildly. Some people get new hoods, some people (like me) got to split the cost of the repair, and others are told to eat it.

    • 0 avatar
      raph

      Seems like this will eventually turn into a class action lawsuit.

      Lawyers will make big money and everybody else will get a check for three bucks and twenty nine cents to cover thier inconvience!

      I had some bubbling on the hood of the 09 GT500 but it wasn’t too bad. Mostly it was under the driver’s side had spread to a small spot on the edge of the hood. Paint never flaked off on the exterior though, just bubbled up.

    • 0 avatar
      tresmonos

      .

    • 0 avatar
      VolandoBajo

      OTOH my beloved 97 Grand Marquis has aluminum hood and trunk, and the paint looks as good as new, except for a very few minor dings from falling acorns, perhaps.

      I suspect the Mustang problem was more a QC issue than an inability to know how to keep paint on the aluminum. Laziness perhaps, or cost-cutting, not a technical barrier per se.

    • 0 avatar
      pragmatist

      My wife’s 88 Mercedes 560 SL has an aluminum hood with no problems. Obviously this is doable.

  • avatar
    ToddAtlasF1

    Chances are the materials and procedures permitted by the EPA and OSHA when your 1983 Continental was painted are history now. It’s interesting that Ford made your hood in the ’80s and then forgot about galvanic corrosion before putting aluminum hoods on Mustangs.

    • 0 avatar
      morbo

      Yup. Hexavalent chrome was a wonderfull corrosion inhibitor that had excellent paint adhesion. But in the 90s the gov decided poisoning people was less desirable than sweet, sweet, long lasting coatings.

      This is Ford though. They once tried to sue DuPont for ‘bad’ ccoatings due to Taurus hood failures (back on Gen 1.5). DuPont set up surveilence in Chicago and Atlanta at the factories. Chicago was fine. In Atlanta, Ford was too cheap for air conditioning. The workers were sweating like pigs. There was a manufacturing step that required workers to lean over the card right as thet exited the paint shop. They were dripping sweat into still curing paint, causing it to fail early.

      DuPont didnt pay Ford nothing

      • 0 avatar
        tresmonos

        .

      • 0 avatar
        CoreyDL

        What an interesting historical anecdote. Car plant workers need AC!

        • 0 avatar
          tresmonos

          More like historical bull sh1t, just like the majority of these comments. Morbo may be right that sweat caused the defects, but the rest of his comment is “The Starry Night” if my 4sshole’s name is van Gogh.

          Tell me: just how in the f*ck do you air condition a building with 5 industrial ovens the size of football fields in it? There are ducts for certain areas, yes. But in the middle of summer in ATL you’re losing the climate battle, especially if your facility wasn’t constructed in the past decade (insulation and efficiency improvements).

          Most paint vendors have pretty solid relationships with their perspective plants. ‘Surveillance’ and ‘gotcha’ games my 4ss.

          • 0 avatar
            morbo

            Now I remember why I stopped commenting on TTAC and became a Jalop, such keen insight from the proles.

            Niceaties aside, I never said to condition the factory, that is wasteful. It would have made more sense to either eliminate the manufacturing steps requiremnt that workers lean over the car or to condition the zone where it was done.

            And yes DuPont did do surveillence. In a former life I worked with indistrial coatings, DuPont, AkzoNobel, Rohm & Haas, etc. Ford was being antagonistic with DuPont and thats why DuPont set up surveillance

          • 0 avatar
            tresmonos

            “Too cheap for air conditioning” would infer that Atlanta never ran at all during summer months. UAW, safety, wet bulb tests, etc.

            So I guess I should bow before your misinformation and trust the rest of your comment as truth.

      • 0 avatar
        dal20402

        Maybe overheated and dehydrated workers were the cause of all of the numerous quality issues that plagued my Atlanta-assembled Taurus SHO. (Well, at least the ones that weren’t caused by parts suppliers.)

      • 0 avatar
        S1L1SC

        The easy fix would be to add an additional loop to the assembly line to give the paint enough time to cure before a worker has to lean over the car… Or properly design the curing time/cycle in the first place…

    • 0 avatar

      “Chances are the materials and procedures permitted by the EPA and OSHA when your 1983 Continental was painted are history now.”

      IIRC, they went away in the early 1990s. So that’s a very good point, but there’s been plenty of aluminum hoods after this, maybe not at Ford but the technology to do it right is there.

      • 0 avatar

        IIRC every Town Car, Grand Marquis, & Crown Victoria had Aluminum hoods since ’98, and maybe standard since’92.

        • 0 avatar
          Scoutdude

          Yeah my 92 CV has an aluminum hood and despite the fact that the clear coat has now totally gone AWAL there is no corrosion of the hood not even around the steel strike plate. My 2003 Mountaineer also has an aluminum hood that is still corrosion free.

        • 0 avatar
          VolandoBajo

          Definitely aluminum on the 97 Grand Marquis, front and rear, and as they used to say in the south, nay ary a blister on either one.

      • 0 avatar
        morbo

        In all seriousness, having been away from TTAC for a while, do all the comment threads devolve into Trumpian angst now? Piss and vinegar has always been part of TTAC, but this thread at least just seems angry for the sake of angry. Am I missing something?

        • 0 avatar
          tresmonos

          Depends on how long you’ve been away. My apologies for being a stressor. I take this sh1t too personally due to being an active participant in the situation.

          Recent editing direction seems to be of the triggering variant.

    • 0 avatar
      tresmonos

      .

    • 0 avatar
      05lgt

      My 2005 Legacy GT has a US painted Al hood and no such problems. None on the LGT forums either. Ford specified poorly or got burned by a supplier. With a problem lasting a decade, it’s Fords F up.

  • avatar
    seth1065

    Ford quality One- this is BS, say what you want about VW but my TDI wagon paint looks great after 5 years and 130,000 miles, really this is on Ford corp to do the right thing and fix these ASAP, these are Fords marquee car and to have this happen on pretty new cars is a disgrace.

    • 0 avatar
      operagost

      “Ford quality One- this is BS, say what you want about VW”

      OK. They are emissions cheats, and didn’t fix it until forced to by the law. How is that better than screwing up the paint on aluminum hoods?

      • 0 avatar
        SSJeep

        This. And VW cant technically “fix” the emissions systems and have any reliability long-term. The malignant code was tweaked in 2014 to run the SCR even less often due to warranty failures on the already underutilized SCR.

        I think Id rather have a relatively minor paint problem. And most Ford dealers will make good on repairs. They need more support from corporate.

    • 0 avatar
      Silence

      Did Ford have to eat billions recalling 500,000 vehicles in the US? Dodgy paint loses out to entire vehicle buybacks.

  • avatar
    Joss

    Haven’t revisited stang since the burgundy upholstery on my 89 oxidized orange within 18 months…

    • 0 avatar
      Lorenzo

      Ooh, I remember that. One wag said Ford used the same pigment GM used on its burgundy paint in the early 1960s.

    • 0 avatar
      SSJeep

      The Fox bodies had TERRIBLE upholstery, probably among the worst of any vehicle I have ever owned. If you were fortunate enough to have a black cloth interior, you ended up with some shade of gray long term- lighter if it was a convertible (ask me how I know).

      God forbid you had a leather interior, which would split into a jigsaw puzzle of super-thin leather chunks within 25k miles.

  • avatar
    Higheriq

    Ford has been using aluminum on F-150s since 1997 (hoods). My 97 F-150 had absolutely NO issue with peeling hood paint in the 150K I put on it. Regular washing /waxing and stone chip repairs are key, which is what I tell anyone who asks “why is my paint (or clearcoat) flaking off?”.

    • 0 avatar
      S197GT

      i had a garage queen ’03 Explorer Eddie Bauer that had the paint peel on the hood with under 22k miles.

      luck of the draw is the answer.

      • 0 avatar
        Scoutdude

        I think some of it is luck of the draw and some of it is the conditions in which you drive, ie where you live. Our 2003 Mountaineer’s hood is just fine as far as this goes and it has never been parked in the garage.

  • avatar
    Wade.Moeller

    Airplane manufacturers have been painting aluminum for a long long long time. It’s not a new science and they have been doing it the same way the whole time.

    I’d bet the issue at hand is that the Mustang hoods are painted at a facility that does steel hoods and the paint monkeys are grabbing steel wool instead of aluminum wool and contaminating the surface of the aluminum.

    • 0 avatar
      JimZ

      Huh? The entire body gets painted at the same time. They assemble the body, put it through the dip stage(s,) paint it, then pull the doors off to go down the door line while the body goes down the chassis line.

      • 0 avatar
        Wade.Moeller

        Then their paint prep monkey is working on the surrounding steel and either touching up the hood or not cleaning the debris from the steel off of the hood properly.

    • 0 avatar
      tresmonos

      .

    • 0 avatar
      Lorenzo

      Aircraft aluminum alloys may be a whole different animal. Most aircraft makers use several different alloys of aluminum for different parts of the plane. For the skin of a plane, the 2000 series of alloys are used, and there are multiple versions, with different properties. For a Ford hood, you would have to know the alloy used to make a comparison with aircraft uses. It’s complicated.

  • avatar
    duffman13

    This is a problem with ford’s paint process. Blaming it on the aluminum is passing the buck on crappy processes. My 12 year old S2000 has an aluminum hood that looks as good as the day it was purchased finish-wise, though outdoor parking the last 5 years has definitely faded it somewhat.

  • avatar
    philadlj

    Or own it and go Full Rat Rod.

  • avatar
    S197GT

    had this issue with my purchased-new 2003 ford explorer eddie bauer’s aluminum hood.

    the crazy thing was that it was a garage queen. traded in in 2006 with 22k miles.

    fixed under warranty but amazing ford still can’t get it right.

  • avatar
    mtunofun

    Toyota had a similar issue when they primed their bumpers at the factory. I agree with Sanjeev; take the car to a certified aluminum shop that offers a lifetime guarantee. It’ll be expensive (since they do it right). Also, you don’t need to blend the fenders if they are not on the same plane as the hood!

  • avatar
    dukeisduke

    A friend’s Expedition is doing this now, on the leading edge of the hood. If this problem becomes an issue on the F-150, it will be a fiasco for Ford.

  • avatar
    VW16v

    The picture of the hood looks almost like it was damaged, as in dented. This may have been an issue in helping the paint fall off. But, that does look awful.

  • avatar
    05lgt

    This is why Bark likes Ford. He thinks no one should own a (non-race) car over 3 years old, so Ford is perfect. I so wish TMC would make something in the Golf R / STi / FoRS space. They continue to ignore my wishes. It’s almost like they don’t want to lose money or something.

  • avatar
    tresmonos

    FYI – I edited out any value added contributions to this article because the B&B are an aggregate of miserable f*cks full of disinformation. Risk vs reward was overshadowed.

    Kurt_B:
    Proper repair for rock chips – clean immediately, lightly sand (optional), apply phosphate wipe, apply touch up paint

    If corrosion did not come from a rock chip (that caused adhesion failure), take it to a dealer that will properly categorize this under your corrosion warranty.

    If it originated from a rock chip – this is the same as a rusting leading edge of a hood in the eyes of the OEM. They will bin it as wear from use and not having it repaired, therefore not covered under the warranty.

  • avatar
    Rochester

    Infiniti has been using aluminum hoods on their G for years, without issue. The problem isn’t the material, it’s the manufacturer.

  • avatar
    dividebytube

    My ’98 Toyota T100 hood was aluminum – I believe – and looked great when I sold it two years ago. I can’t say the same for the rest of the vehicle though – Michigan!

    • 0 avatar
      Lorenzo

      Ever thought of joining or starting a movement to get Michigan to outlaw salt or other chemical tratments for snow and ice? Fifty years ago, all that was used was sand, but it ended up in drainage inlets and had to be dredged out annually with a claw scoop and hauled away in dump trucks. Once one state does it, the other snow belt states will follow.

      There’s an environmental angle to banning car-melting road salts that will eventually succeed, but you have to start somewhere. Massachusetts should have started already, since they were inundated during snowmageddon, and the old method of disposal, dumping in rivers/ocean, was banned due to the chemicals/debris in the snow polluting the water. They ran out of places to put the snow!

      Work on ending that road salting practice, and we can all invest in companies that make snow tires and tire chains and retire comfortably.

  • avatar
    PushrodPat

    My ’12 Challenger with a black aluminum hood that lives outside is still fine….

  • avatar
    Fred

    My 1971 MGB had a aluminum hood. Nothing like good old British craftsmanship!

    • 0 avatar
      Zackman

      Thanks for that. Would you mind cleaning my keyboard and monitor and monitor?

    • 0 avatar
      VolandoBajo

      Must be nice to have a good hood to work under whilst dealing with various Lucas (the Prince of Darkness) electrics.

      I learned how to use a VOMeter when I owned both a MkII 3.8 Jag and a 600cc Norton Dominator SS bike.

      Never did like the idea of the headlight going out at seventy five miles an hour on a dark night on a country road.

      • 0 avatar
        Fred

        Actually for all the jokes, that was a great car. I got it when it was only a few years old and it ran great without problems. I had a reliable Audi too, so maybe it’s just me.

  • avatar
    JimZ

    well, if TTAC gets rid of the ability to edit comments, we’ll know why..

  • avatar
    s_a_p

    This is a common ford problem. My brothers Ford Explorer hood looks exactly like that, 3 and a half years old and paint is flaking off. He has experienced a lot of long term quality issues with his explorer that make it seem like they dont have their stuff together with structural integrity. It leaks, creaks and the paint is peeling. That is what cars did back in the 70s and these sort of problems should have been fixed by now.

  • avatar
    SD 328I

    I’ve owned 4 Fords with aluminum hoods, a 2000 F150, 2004 Expedition, 2005 Mustang GT, and now a 2015 F150.

    None of them exhibited any paint issues.

    Except for my newest vehicle, I owned my previous Fords for at least 5 years or more.

    Considering Ford’s number 1 selling F150 has had aluminum hoods since 1997, you would think that if the problem was that common, it would be a bigger deal by now, because that is a lot of trucks built in the last 20 years.

  • avatar
    Stumpaster

    Aluminum mast manufacturers have no issues in salt water enviro.

  • avatar
    APaGttH

    The answer is clear.

    Get rid of that Mustang and go HELLCAT! HELLCAT! Hodor! Hodor! Hodor! Hodor!

  • avatar
    Whittaker

    Because of the location of the peeling paint, Ford will most likely claim outside damage and deny a warranty repair.
    Kurt could get a couple fender billboards that say “4 YEARS OLD, LOOK AT MY HOOD, FORD WON’T REPAIR”.
    Park in highly visible locations and drive slowly through Ford dealerships on the weekends. Extra points for attending a few Mustang Cruise-Ins and Car Shows.

    Hell, just getting exposure on TTAC might do the trick.
    Kurt ain’t no dummy.

  • avatar

    Thanks for posting this Sajeev.
    Some additional info. The peeling is not a result of rock chips, it started under the hood and spread up under the front lip. This is faulty workmanship and is very common.
    I did take it to the dealer. I was told that Ford would not pay for the fix but might be convinced to provide some after warranty assistance for part of the cost (car is under 5 yrs old).
    They quoted me four thousand dollars (CAD) to replace the hood and the performance pack factory stripe.

    There was a lawsuit (http://www.stangtv.com/news/ford-beats-lawsuit-alleging-mustang-hood-corrosion-conspiracy/) “but the judge dismissed both complaints, as neither man could demonstrate financial loss due to the hood corrosion, despite internal Ford data demonstrating that the Mustang’s aluminum hood was five times more likely to experience corrosion.”

    The judge also suggested that if the “plaintiffs taken Ford to court over breach of warranty contract, they may have had a better case”.

    From what I’ve read, the only true fix is to replace the hood.

    • 0 avatar
      tresmonos

      You are right on the replacement procedure. There is a paint that inhibits corrosion, but it costs something like $500/qt.

      I was wrong on warranty. Up through 15MY, it’s for perforation, which would never happen with Al. 16MY onward covers bubbling and surface corrosion.

      The root cause is substrate. It isn’t the suppliers, it isn’t the manufacturing process. It’s design.

      I’m sorry man. I’d buy you a beer or lunch and explain the minutia in person if I could.

      • 0 avatar
        05lgt

        Thank you for summing up here. I’d missed some of your removed comments and this pretty much covered it for me. Yeah, it wasn’t meant for me, but thanks anyway.

      • 0 avatar
        05lgt

        @ tresmonos,
        earlier reports of me understanding were exaggerations. When I say substrate I’m talking about thin films in laser diodes. Most people are talking about layers in a semiconductor chip. Paint/primer companies talk about “protecting the underlying substrate”. Is the Al sheet coated with a different chemical property Al layer? I’m getting about frustrated with all the other experts who clearly know 5% of what you do, but they still know more than I do. Want to fix it for those of us who will read it?

        • 0 avatar
          tresmonos

          The alloy is what I was referring to.

          There are of course processing theories to go along with my supposed root cause. Seeing that Flat Rock is and was known for their adherence to process control plans due to the joint venture, and that this issue is wide spread across multiple platforms roughly at the same time coming from different plants, I would probably point the finger at a procurement decision based in design.

          • 0 avatar

            Tres,

            Thanks for being clear on a possible root cause. I’m not in automotive (well sort of a few customers of mine are). But I deal with painted aluminum all day its one of the main components of some the products where I work. And the final product is often installed in corrosive environments. The most common cause for paint bubbling in my experience has been thru application errors or thru ferrous metal fastners breaking the coating of the aluminum, but a material problem could cause it as well. We use a sherwin williams product on 5052 currently I believe but have used others in the past

          • 0 avatar
            tresmonos

            mopar4wd:
            From what I’ve seen the corrosion can come from other sources:

            1) washout during pretreat in a fundamentally broken system. If your pretreat stages do not have sufficient process control (filters, re circulation, working rinse nozzle stage, magnets hung, solids separators functioning), you can get debris and washout adhering to the surface prior to your first layer of rust application via phosphate or zirconium precipitate.
            2) poor process of steel body components right next to Al panels – if you’re doing metal finish work and do not use separate tools and sand paper, you’re essentially impregnating the Al with steel that will cause galvanic corrosion.
            3) improper material.
            4) bimetal contact without proper isolation (a plating or coating more base than Al). Usually you’d want a metal coating along with a ductile sealer.
            5) improper metal coating in a bimetal design. Using something like Galfan type II rather than type 1 (hot dip galvanization with Mg)

          • 0 avatar

            Thanks Tres. I’m not directly involved in the fabrication and coating. I just have to deal with the customers when it goes wrong (which is luckily very rare.) so I’ve had to learn a bit about it. 90% of our metal work is with aluminum so it eliminates a lot of the issues I think. We have had issue with poorly prepped products having adhesion issues but normally the bubbling and corrosion has been to poor coating coverage at fasteners, then salt water hits the joint and you see bubbling a year or two later. All in all given the size of our shop we have had good experiences, with many of our products being fine in the field after 20-30 years.

          • 0 avatar
            05lgt

            Thank you.

  • avatar
    Click REPLY to reload page

    The make-a-sign suggestion is great. Park the car next to the Ford dealership at every opportunity. It won’t be long until they beg you to allow them to make it right… or send a tow truck to haul away your Mustang.

  • avatar
    Vulpine

    That, friend Kurt, is what aluminum looks like as it corrodes. It’s the same thing as rust, but comes out as a white, granular powder rather than coarse scales until much, much later. This demonstrates that the hood was not properly cleaned, anodized or primered prior to painting. It is repairable, just as rust is repairable if caught before the metal is perforated. However, repairing a perforated panel is not as easy in aluminum as it is with steel.

  • avatar
    whynotaztec

    Tailgates on expeditions et al suffer the same issue, though later in life in my experience. This stuff on the stands is happening much too soon.

    If you go back to 2000 ish explorers in dark colors, then you are in Honda paint defect territory.

    • 0 avatar
      tresmonos

      The lift gates happen just as soon. I’ve seen it happen where stressors in the metal (around hems) cause it within 3 years.

      • 0 avatar
        whynotaztec

        Correction: STANGS not stands…..

        That is right now that I think about the tailgates it was usually blooming around the handle. Yet the hoods were usually the leading edge. At my body shop we tended to shy away from corrosion issues of any kind because they are nightmares. However in the case of the Stangs a replacement hood is a cost effective option. And many mustang colors were safe to panel paint.

  • avatar
    indi500fan

    Get a sponsor and wrap the hood.

    Pizza, beer, whatever.

    Go all Nascar on it.

  • avatar
    Russycle

    “…a stereotypical body shop won’t cut it”

    Not to be That Guy (oh, who the hell am I kidding?), but “stereotypical” is not a synonym for “typical”.

  • avatar
    Spike_in_Brisbane

    Land Rovers have always been all aluminium, all over. (Since the 1940s!!) There don’t seem to be any more paint issues with them than with other cars. I had one – no paint issues. (Plenty of other issues) I currently have an 11 year old Citroen C5 with an aluminium bonnet (hood) and perfect paint.

  • avatar
    jthorner

    Will Ford never learn to stop sticking it to customers when the company creates problems like this? I had a first generation Taurus on which the original clear coat started failing when it was only three years old, and out of warranty. Ford gave me the middle finger about it.

    My friend’s ’89 F150 paint started fading and chalking six months into ownership. Ford paid to repaint it with the cheapest paint available, and it was never right.

    If there are contamination issues with some Mustang hoods, those are Ford’s problem and the company should make it right.

  • avatar
    EBFlex

    This is what you get when you buy a low quality vehicle from a company run by a guy who’s business model is “profits now, recalls later”.


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