By on August 16, 2016

 

2008 toyota 4runner

Earl writes:

Hi Sajeev,

I want to get my wife a used SUV. We tried a Volvo wagon, but it’s just too unreliable. My first choice is a 4Runner, but the prices here are insane, even for 10-15 year old ‘Runners. I’ve noticed I can buy a Cayenne or an X5 for similar prices to the aforementioned 4Runner, and that’s with fewer miles and years newer.

So, what gives?

Are the X5 and Cayenne unreliable junk to be avoided at all costs, or is it just that the folks who ponied up originally weren’t expecting above average maintenance requirements? What do you and Best and Brightest think? Get the old, rusty, reliable 4Runner; risk an X5; or get a Pathfinder or Explorer as a default choice?

Sajeev answers:

Ready the pitchforks: someone thinks Volvo wagons aren’t reliable!

But seriously, the 5-plus-year-old used vehicle marketplace possesses harsh generalities that feel like realities.

On one end, 10-plus-year-old Toyota trucks and SUVs earned a reputation for value/durability/reliability without the blue collar, fleet vehicle feel of an S-10, Blazer, Ranger, Explorer, etc. They command a premium, which (far too many?) people gladly pay.**

The other end? Out-of-warranty highline rigs once perched atop the height of good taste: until their multiple owners adopted deferred maintenance on a scale resembling a nationwide outbreak. Expensive eurozone parts and a steep repair learning curve mean that the only way to move the metal is via steep price cuts. You better buy one with a strong service history and know a good wrench and be a good wrench and spend time on the forums to keep one running for a reasonable price.

Somewhere between these extremes lies the rest of the world’s SUVs: not desirable (Saleen Explorer and Trailblazer SS aside) but acceptable in performance and ownership costs. This is the sandbox I choose, and I discourage either extremity.

The comment about folks not “expecting above average maintenance requirements” is spot on: be it disappointing a la X5’s window problems or the sublime yet eventually leaky four-corner air suspension of older Navigators, the stereotypical third owner won’t pay for the proper repair. Nor appreciate a repair by OEM-trained techs (be it at a dealership or at a specialized independent repair shop) using OEM parts. It’s deferred maintenance above all else, baby!

So test drive Explorers, Trailblazers, Liberties, Pathfinders, Suburbans (usually cheaper than Tahoes!), Expeditions, etc. and avoid the extremes of the used SUV market. Either side may feel better, but if you listen to your wallet, it shall disagree.

**Whether or not newer Toyota trucks deserve to ride the coattails of earlier Toyotas is a discussion for the Best and Brightest.

[Image: Toyota]

Send your queries to [email protected]com. Spare no details and ask for a speedy resolution if you’re in a hurry…but be realistic, and use your make/model specific forums instead of TTAC for more timely advice. 

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136 Comments on “Piston Slap: Deferred Maintenance and the Toyota Halo Effect...”


  • avatar
    heavy handle

    If you are shopping 15-year-old trucks, everything is unreliable. Have you considered getting your wife a late-model CR-V? It’s more money, won’t impress the neighbors, but way less hassle.

    • 0 avatar
      spreadsheet monkey

      ^^ THIS

    • 0 avatar
      Frylock350

      In what world is a 15 year old truck not reliable?

      • 0 avatar
        duffman13

        An average vehicle is driven 10-12k per year. Extrapolate that over 15 years and you’re looking at 150-200k miles. At this point things are wearing out and even routine maintenance and replacing worn parts happens with enough frequency it will can approach the level of a payment on something newer that requires less downtime.

      • 0 avatar
        dal20402

        The real one. No 15-year-old vehicle will run for a long time without significant and unpredictable maintenance cost. You can make them “reliable” in the sense that they won’t ever strand you by keeping on top of maintenance, but you’ll never get the experience of a new vehicle where you just drive it and change oil/brakes/tires for the first five years/75,000 miles.

      • 0 avatar
        Sigivald

        In one where they’ve got several years of deferred maintenance and the engine might (this means you, Ford 5.4) be a time bomb?

        My Toyota pickup (a ’94) was Not Reliable when I got rid of it after 18 years (which is really close to 15, eh?), because *it was worn out*.

    • 0 avatar
      Ryoku75

      Ive heard otherwise about CR-Vs, its more money for less SUV imo.

    • 0 avatar
      rpn453

      I can’t see how someone wanting a 4-Runner would buy a CR-V. The drivetrains aren’t comparable.

      • 0 avatar
        stuki

        Same interior space. Both have tall ride height. Both are from “reliable” makes. Both are wagons on stilts. Both send power to all 4. Both are fashionably “not a sedan….”

        Unless wifey is auditioning for the Taliban, is looking for a Rubicon rig, or is, perhaps, a closet lesbian, I doubt she’d notice much of a difference.

        • 0 avatar
          gtemnykh

          4Runner has a noticeably larger cargo capacity seats up or down, for what it’s worth. Oh and if you have dogs the roll down rear window almost justifies buying the truck for that reason alone.

    • 0 avatar
      Deontologist

      I keep hearing this or some variation of this statement:

      “All cars require maintenance”

      “All cars will have stuff break at X years of age”

      “All cars will break down”

      Damn, yes, I also know that the sky is blue.

      The questions are:

      1) Do the repairs cost the same among all cars?

      2) What breaks – critical stuff or minor stuff?

      The answers are:

      1) No, some cars are more expensive to repair.

      2) Some cars will need major overhauls while others just need minor things like new door handles (speaking from experience).

      By the BMW/Audi/Mercedes/European car sympathizers’ logic, why don’t health insurance companies just insure anyone over 60 years of age?

      I mean, at that age, people will start requiring periodic maintenance, just like a car! And all people require maintenance, just like all 15 year old cars! And it doesn’t matter if it’s an obese, dumbass American or an educated, healthy Japanese person – they all require maintenance just the same – just like Lexuses and BMWs!

  • avatar
    autobahner44

    We must have gotten lucky with our 2010 Volvo V 70 R-Design, which we purchased new. 6 years and 110,000 miles later, it is tight. looks fresh, and runs great. Other than a droopy sun visor (me missus has to check her make-up every 40 seconds) the replacement of which costs $750-NFW, Volvo!) no complaints.

    • 0 avatar
      87 Morgan

      Droopy sun visor is a common Volvo problem apparently. My father in law has removed two of them as it is cheaper.

      • 0 avatar
        Land Ark

        It’s a common problem on cars.
        Over the last 7 years I’ve replaced the driver’s visor on:
        Scion tC
        Subaru Legacy (x2)
        Pontiac GTO
        Acura TSX

        All suffered the same issue, the plastic hinge separates from the portion of the visor it attaches to and droops.

        I have nearly stopped using them at all to avoid the problem.

        • 0 avatar

          It’s probably the weight of all those airbag warning labels.

        • 0 avatar
          DrSandman

          That’s funny. I have never used a sun visor because I am so tall from the waist-up that the roofline blocks everything anyway. When my wife pulls her side down, I slap it back up, because it blocks my entire field of view to the right (I only see the hood, then).

          I would remove the driver side entirely to get that extra 1/2 inch of forward vision, except for how ugly the hole would look….

      • 0 avatar
        Kyree S. Williams

        We had that issue in both a 2005 Murano and a 2007 Sonata.

      • 0 avatar
        dal20402

        Universal on Acura Legends. It’s pretty much impossible to find a Legend visor with a non-cracked hinge connection for love or money. Mine is about as good as it gets and it hangs about 3/4 of an inch below flush.

        • 0 avatar
          Ryoku75

          Can’t you swap in visors from an Accord or an Acura RL?

          • 0 avatar
            dal20402

            Nope. They’re specially shaped to fit into an indentation in the headliner, like most Honda visors from that time period. No other visor is quite right.

          • 0 avatar
            CoreyDL

            What about a Sterling, if you found a junked one?

        • 0 avatar
          Ryoku75

          Well thats just silly, though I recall having that issue with my 94 Accord when I was looking at interior pieces, glovebox bits mostly.

          If I see a Legend or Sterling with decent sun visors I’ll be sure to grab the bits for yah.

          • 0 avatar
            davew833

            Good luck even finding a Sterling at this stage of the game, let alone one with good sunvisors. You would not have found one with good sunvisors 15 years ago either. As an owner of multiple Sterlings at that time, I can assure you the fabric inserts on Sterling sunvisors were as fragile as tissue paper. I used to carefully cut the remaining shreds out with a razor blade and glue in vinyl or leather– a moderately successful solution.

    • 0 avatar
      Ryoku75

      The only car I had sun visor issues with was a Volvo 240 wagon, used metal hinges but the plastic “hooks” at the other end would snap.

    • 0 avatar
      Sigivald

      The Rs tend to be finicky, so you’re a little lucky – but it’s also still pretty new.

      ($750? I got a new visor *with HomeLink* for my XC70 and it was only $400 or so – and most of that was for the fancy electronics.

      But I also did my own labor, because it’s two screws and a farkin’ wire you have to fish out and plug in.)

  • avatar
    87 Morgan

    Yes, used 4Runners bring all the dough, in most cases buying one new is the best way to go if you intend to keep it forever which is close to how long they will last if you do some basic upkeep.
    Moving along…
    A well used X5 would give me anxiety attacks. My neighbor has a well used Cayenne that, surprisingly, has given him no issues. Of course, after he bought it, he had to spend a couple of grand repairing it. The used car lot was upfront about what was wrong…most of it.

    OP; how about some fun facts? What dollars are you looking to spend etc?

    FWIW: I would take the Volvo over the Porsche or X5..my in laws ONLY buy used Volvos with more than 100k on them and usually take them to 200k rinse and repeat. Not without a few trips to the Volvo specialist though.

    • 0 avatar
      Sigivald

      Yeah, I’d take the Volvo over the Germans.

      Not that they’re Rock Solid Reliable When Used, but the sort of failings I hear about for 10-15 year old wagons are *sane*, like “replace that stupid center diff with one that isn’t stupid”.

      I’d feel a lot more sanguine about a used XC than I would a *Porsche* anything, even if it wasn’t an IMS-vulnerable model.

  • avatar
    energetik9

    Yeah, I always thought of Volvo’s as reliable too, that or it’s just the image of Volvo. I also have always understood Porsches to be very reliable, which I have experienced so far with mine. Last X5 I owed I had for 7+ years and it was very reliable.

    I would take the Cayenne or X5 over the Volvo, only because I lean to sport and performance. Either used wouldn’t bother me and I have driven both. CPO would likely be how I would do it, but I get that the OP is talking around the 15 yr range.

    I hear people talk about deferred maintenance, but maybe I’m the exception. I am always thorough in my maintenance and care, which is likely why I have owned BMWs and Porsches far past warranty without issue.

    On a side note, a used Pilot might be a good option in that range.

  • avatar
    ant

    A friend of mine faced this dilemma a while back. He ended up with a Jeep Cherokee (2001, or there-abouts).

    He liked the truck, the way it looked, the way it drove, and so on…..

    He was willing to fix the things on it that broke without complaint.

    But after a while, it got to be 12-13 years old, and well north of 100k miles…. it just kinda fell apart. All at once.

    It was if it had been designed to only last so long, then be thrown away. The blinkers stop working on the way to Toyota to get traded in.

    He drives a Sequoia now. That giant thirsty truck has got over 100k on it now. It’s holding up without any issues, despite all the stupid electric motors all over that thing (every seat, steering wheel tilt, trailer hitch, mirrors and so on).

  • avatar
    Kenmore

    Where does OP live, undercarriagely speaking?

    Unsalted, lightly salted, bare white roads?

  • avatar
    1audiofile

    I just graduated a 12 step program on the newer Volvos. I bought a 2001 Volvo S80 that had timing belt problems and the engine suffered bent intake valves. In fairness I am 63 and work much more slowly than I used to do. I replaced all the intake valves but had been warned many special tools were needed. In the past I was ably to circumvent the need to get special tools. Not so here. One volvo specialist was asked by a potential buyer about the S80. He responded they should dig a big hole and bury them. Essentially, the newer volvos are just big computers with full integration. The problem is when a part breaks like an ECU getting it replaced is expensive. You can buy a used one on ebay for $100 or less, but it has to be installed by the dealer. $1,200 PLUS $250 Software INSTALLATION OF the new part.. I will stop here but what looked like a good investment ended up losing over $ 1500 dollars. I made the car right but read the blogs regarding the newer Volvos. They are absolute nightmares by design.

  • avatar
    gtemnykh

    Quite frankly, the market has spoken loud and clear as to how well the vehicles in question hold up as they age. The 4Runners (the year range you describe is late-3rd gen and early-mid 4th gen) really don’t have that much that goes wrong, and still have plenty of servicable life left well into 250-300k miles. Wear parts that do need to be replaced (way too many driving old 4Runners with saggy worn out springs and struts/shocks) are affordable and easy to get. A few things worth noting: 4th gen 4runners got a redesigned front suspension that makes the lower balljoints much less of a stressed element. That’s not to say that the 3rd gen isn’t durable or long lasting (most easily make it to 150k miles and 15+ years), but that the failure mode is both dramatic and unexpected (they don’t feel /sound loose before they pop out). Some 4th gen trucks got the “XREAS” suspension system that basically has lines carrying fluid that is shared among the 4 shocks/struts. When the shocks wear out, OEM replacements cost an arm and a leg. Most folks just switch out to regular shocks and leave the system inactive with the lines in place.

    The one thing to truly look out for is rust. 3rd gen bodies are mostly galvanized so they do better than average on that front, but the bumpers will start to rot and more importantly the frames need thorough checking over. Definitely not an endemic issues like the Tacomas, but they’re old enough and many have seen a lot of winter duty, rear trailing arm mounting points and the spot where the tail pipe passes by are places to investigate closely. I have never seen rust on a 4th gen body, but the frames get covered with surface rust (along with all the bolts and brake/fuel lines) which is something to look out for. never heard of one getting scrapped for a rotten frame mind you, although I’m sure it’s happened in the rust belt by now.

    I paid a princely $6300 for mine 3 years ago, but it was a cherry one owner Limited and rear diff-locked truck with 99k miles and amazingly rust free. My friend just picked up a ’97 Limited (no locker) with about 175k miles and a bit of rust around the edges but a clean frame (needs valve cover gaskets, a suspension refresh, we fixed an O2 related CEL) for $3200.

    For daily driver use, I’d strongly suggest a 4th gen. They’re not anywhere as trail worthy off the showroom floor (low hanging bumpers, worse angles and clearance), but they ride significantly better as well as make better power with the same MPG, interiors are noticeably wider. They also have depreciated quicker than the 3rd gens, a early 4th can easily be found with the same miles for the same price as a late 3rd.

    • 0 avatar
      Coopdeville

      They want more than your princely sum here in the Midwest, and it makes no sense to me. I looked at an 02 Limited with 119k, clean as a whistle and mainly rust free but no available service history, “firmly” on sale for $8900. I passed.

      You throw around the terms “3rd gen” and “4th gen” pretty loosely, what years do those correspond to? What gen is the current ’14s to ’16s?

      These are high on my list of want but I can’t get around the prices they’re commanding – I don’t want one badly enough to drop $35-38k on a new one, even with the used value proposition, but I also can’t justify spending $32k on a 2 year old used that Cargurus calls a “Good Deal”, when only a couple grand more get’s me new. I guess it boils down to being a cheap bastard who doesn’t want to spend money. https://cargur.us/bgGSn

      Going back a few years into 2010-2012 doesn’t actually save that much either, it just adds miles. Lots of listings for 2011/2012s with 60k miles for $29k!

      Tacoma’s are a little better and I’m leaning that way, but in general the entire Toyota used market is insane, like real estate in Seattle or SF. I understand the reputation is well deserved in most cases, but I’m in the camp that doesn’t quite believe New Toyota’s will last like Old Toyota’s, and that makes me hesitate to drop that kind of coin.

      • 0 avatar
        gtemnykh

        3rd gen: 96-02. Shares much of its frame design, suspension, running gear with the global Land Cruiser Prado 90. Available in the US with the 3RZ 2.7L (chain) 4cyl and more commonly the excellent 3.4L V6 5VZFE (belt). T-cases are manual, with some electronic actuation mixed in (button for 4Hi rather than J-shifter). Factory rear locking differentials available until 2000. A-TRAC after that.

        4th gen: 03-09, platform taken from Land Cruiser Prado 120 (ie Lexus GX470) with V6s gaining the 5spd auto in ’05 and a facelift in ’06. Chain driven 4.0L V6 1GRFE paired with a part/full time 4wd system (Torsen T3 lockable center diff), belt driven 2UZ V8 optional with fulltime AWD (locking center diff, low range). T-cases shifted all-electrical. Very rare “Trail Edition” V6 in 09 was the only model offered with a factory locking rear diff. A-TRAC offroad traction control on all 4wd models I think.

        2010+ 5th gen. Land Cruiser Prado 150 derivative. Improved stock ground clearance back to 3rd gen levels, but still has lower hanging bumpers initially (Trail is decent). Upgraded 4.0L 1GRFE is the only motor. Shift back to part time cases with loss of center diff for most trims (except Limited). 2010-2012 had manual j-shifters on part time cases (SR5, Trail). 2013+ have knobs on part time cases. Limiteds get the 4th gen V8 style fulltime 4wd with locking center diff and low range, selected by knob. Facelift and improved approach/departure angles on bumpers in 2014+ SR5 models. Trails get locking rear diffs.

        • 0 avatar
          Quentin

          gtemnykh – are you on T4R.org? I’ve over there with the same screenname.

          • 0 avatar
            gtemnykh

            Quentin, yeah on on the 3rd gen section but fairly rarely as thankfully mine has been running and driving flawlessly for the past several years now, I mostly use it as a resource for DIY writeups (I’ve rebuilt the starter in position, installed a transmission cooler, installed an extended rear diff breather, and a bunch of suspension work). Been meaning to reach out to some Central IN folks to see if they want to get a group together to go wheeling in Brown County. I need to get some A/T tires badly.

        • 0 avatar
          Coopdeville

          Wow, big thanks gtem! More info than I ever expected.

          I don’t need the off-road stuff like lockers. I did used to off-road a TJ Wrangler but never all that seriously. Not sure I could take anything over pocket change pricing onto a trail and beat it up. I’m clumsy.

          I want the ability to tow light duty and have enough room in the back for minor home remodel, but I know there are literally dozens of SUVs or small trucks that could do this. Mainly interested because I like the throwback tech and build and the reputation for quality and providing decades of service. But admittedly this is overkill for what I need. Need vs. want vs. price.

          • 0 avatar
            CoreyDL

            Are you the OP, you’re Earl? Aren’t you in Cincy as well?

          • 0 avatar
            SSJeep

            “Tow light duty” is the key, and it depends on how you define light duty. How many pounds are you towing, and what is the tongue weight?

            A well used German SUV is asking for a ton of problems, all with requisite expensive fixes. Id avoid one like the plague.

            Why not just buy a new 4Runner SR5? They can be found for a little over $30k, and depreciation is so low that you will never really lose buying one.

          • 0 avatar
            gtemnykh

            I’d say an early V8 4th gen could be a good option. Just make sure the T-belt was done, otehrwise they’re not afraid of high miles at all. However if 4wd is not a requirement then forget about a 4Runner altogether and just go domestic: RWD jellybean Explorer, RWD Trailblazer (GMT360), GMT400 or 800 Tahoe, 1st gen Durango, etc. Save some money up front and maybe you might have to deal with some minor but inexpensive to fix issues.

            For what it’ve worth I’ve towed a pretty sturdy 5×9 uhaul trailer with a single motorcycle with my 4Runner from NY to Indiana several times now, does just fine on hills and whatnot, mpg takes a hit to about 16ish mpg (13 mpg with a canoe on top of that and a weight bench+weights inside the truck). Likewise I’ve towed a twin axle 6×12 foot uhaul moving trailer with the truck for shorter distances and it likewise took it in stride. My Monroe adjustable air shocks (pump them up yourself with a bike pump) helped a lot. I think a domestic SUV (said V8 explorer or Tahoe) would actually do better due to their more settled suspension and lower center of gravity, and torquier motors.

          • 0 avatar
            Coopdeville

            @Corey: Lol, not Earl but in Cincy also. Would never consider used German anything unless the lottery was struck.

            @SSJeep: “light duty” as in well within the capacity of a V6 4Runner to handle. Utility trailer and/or m-cycle trailer. As for price, new 4×4 starts at about $35k. My cash is reserved for the house, my money is making money (this week), but even with 2.9% at 60 mos I literally can’t stomach a $600 payment. Much like how our realtor is constantly reminding me how far below budget our budget is, I have to keep reminding myself that I have committed the folly of taking on debt commiserate with my income in the past, and was miserably awakened when personal tragedy struck.

            @gtem: I wouldn’t wish a first gen Durango on my worst enemy. What did I ever do to you? :)

            I know the 4Runners appeal and understand you have to pay to play, it’s just that I’m stomping my feet and don’t want to have to pay.

    • 0 avatar
      Sigivald

      See, these kind of prices make me think “Christ, just buy a used GX”.

      A quick price check shows a comparable-price GX around here has a few more years but fewer miles.

      (I like the idea of the V8, and in practice it doesn’t seem like it’s much less economical than the V6 anyway, since the 4Runner isn’t exactly aerodynamic…)

      • 0 avatar
        SSJeep

        The GX drinks premium unleaded like a whale. 14MPG on premium will ding the wallet of even the wealthiest of us…

      • 0 avatar
        gtemnykh

        From what I’ve read, 4th gens running in 2wd mode hit 20-22 mpg highway pretty easily. Even a stock V8 fulltime 4wd model can sniff at 20 mpg if driven at 70mph ish on the highway, 17-18 mpg mixed. For reference my ’96 V6 with a lot less power gets 20 mpg on the nose almost every tank, be it straight highway or commuting (highway+ 35-45mph traffic with some lights). Snow tires take it down to 19 mpg. GX is heavier and a bigger shape to push through the air, they probably get at least 1-2 mpg worse than the equivalent 4Runner all around.

  • avatar
    mankyman

    Yeah, the advice on “having a good wrench and knowing a good wrench” for the European vehicles is spot-on. Even a properly maintained Euro car will always have something expensive about to go on it, and it’s not a bad idea to have a backup beater for when your own wrench jobs take too long.
    Case in point – my 2004 passat’s fuel pump quit and I put in a new one. Just the part alone was $600, and the labor at a shop would have been probably $400. I totally get why people steer clear of these cars.

    • 0 avatar
      Sigivald

      … how on Earth did the part cost you $600? Was it secretly a W8 with a different specialty pump or something?

      Every source I can find shows a 2004 Passat fuel pump at under $200.

  • avatar
    dividebytube

    My co-worker drives nothing but used and abused Toyota trucks.

    I bought a 210k Toyota T100 from him. Only issue I had was the wire harness to the back burning out, but that was the fault of the previous-previous owner messing up on the tow wiring.

    Other than that, it was timing belts, oil changes, tires, and brakes.

    He is currently rolling in a 300k+ miles 1st gen Toyota Tundra. He also had a 250k+ mile 4Runner that he ended up crashing into a tree with (ice on a steep, steep hill) and getting repaired.

    I’m looking at the Toyota truck family for my next vehicle.

    Note: Michigander but he buys his Toyotas in Tennessee. Rusty frames will eventually catch to you.

    • 0 avatar
      gtemnykh

      “Michigander but he buys his Toyotas in Tennessee. Rusty frames will eventually catch to you.”

      This is very smart. I lucked out with my ’96, it had been Ziebarted when new, and then only been used for 4 years (96-00) and then was stored during the winter from 2000-2012 so I got super clean rig. I keep the underside and bumpers slathered in Fluid Film, and avoid driving it in slushy mixed/warm weather.

  • avatar
    30-mile fetch

    Without a price range it’s difficult to give a recommendation, but I think Sajeev’s advice about the middle ground is reasonable. Sure, you can get a 100K mile 12-year old Cayenne for $15K, but if you cannot afford to swing the price of a lightly used 4Runner, can you really afford to keep an aging high-end German luxury SUV with a near 6-figure MSRP running?

    Pay up front for the 4Runner or pay down the road for the Porsche and Bimmer. Or look at the Pathfinder and Explorer.

    • 0 avatar
      CoreyDL

      The early Cayennes look sh!t now, with their awkward paint colors and dated wheels. They’re just a pass to me altogether.

      But if he complains about maintaining a Volvo, I really don’t think he’s gonna like maintaining a VAG Touareg-Porsche.

      • 0 avatar
        30-mile fetch

        Yeah, if I was on any kind of budget I wouldn’t touch that nonsense with a 10-foot pole. There’s got to be a German word for the indignity that accompanies buying into a luxury item without being able to afford the attendant costs. It probably sounds a lot like profanity and comes to mind as you count your remaining PTO and checking account balance while waiting for the flatbed to arrive.

        • 0 avatar
          CoreyDL

          GEHDAMSVALLETHASNTINSIDEN

        • 0 avatar
          SSJeep

          There is such a German word:
          Fahrvergnügen

        • 0 avatar
          krhodes1

          As I like to say, if you can’t afford one new, you probably can’t afford one used either when it comes to real luxury vehicles.

          Though that said, my $80K back in 2001 Range Rover has been surprisingly inexpensive to own for three years. Helps that I only paid $5500 for it, and I have yet to pay for a cent of labor other than having the tires balanced. Most expensive part has been $275 for a main fuse relay panel (15 minutes to swap). Only breakdown so far due to a radiator hose I knew was bad and procrastinated replacing. 20K+ happy miles in 3 years.

          I’d LOVE to have a Land Cruiser or Lexus LX or GX, but I can’t justify the price difference. The $10-12K difference will buy one heck of a lot of Land Rover parts.

          I do agree with avoiding the older Germans. I know nothing about CayenneTouregs, but I would not touch a BMW X-anything. Just too many dilemmas for too much money. Their cars are far, far better, bought sanely (i.e. avoid V8/12s and M-anything). I would not buy one of the BMW-engined Range Rovers either.

          I actually bought another Land Rover recently. A ’95 Discovery I. One owner, San Diego truck from day 1 until 50 miles before I bought it. Pretty much mint condition. Not as nice to drive as the Range Rover, but a fraction of as many things to break, and a fraction of the carrying costs here in Maine. Zero options with a stickshift. Fun!

      • 0 avatar
        Sigivald

        I like awkward colors, and the wheels don’t bother me.

        But the maintenance is a great big “oh, hell no, I’ve owned an old German car before”.

    • 0 avatar
      JD23

      Buying a 15 year old German luxury car is like marrying a 40 year old former pornstar.

  • avatar

    I put 150000 miles on a2001 Pathfinder. IMHO the best part of the market are the Japanese cars, some of the American, with similar quality to Toyota without the full price halo. Honda, Subaru, Nissan, Mazda, Ford.

    • 0 avatar

      I bought a leftover 2012 Pathfinder – it was about $10,000 cheaper than what an equivalent 4Runner would have been, thanks to the giant pile of cash that Nissan and the dealer put on the hood.

      I’ve got about 65k on it. I had issues with the power windows and AC – both fixed under warranty, but it’s been solid mechanically.

    • 0 avatar
      CoreyDL

      The problems with the 04-12 Pathfinder are many.

      Interior quality poor
      Trim poor
      4.0 V6 thirsty like Vortec V8
      Loud
      Tippy ride, truck quality
      Interior room limited

      I like the ~96-03 model much better, and in particular the QX4.

      • 0 avatar
        GiddyHitch

        I just swore off on having a third car around last year, but if I was to go back on that, a refreshed QX4 with the 3.5L and monochromatic paint scheme would be on my shortlist. Very efficient packaging and mildly pleasant to drive. My 99.5 Pathfinder was slow and rode rough (apparently due to the valving on the aftermarket KYBs I installed) but was absolutely bulletproof and aged very well.

        • 0 avatar
          CoreyDL

          I think especially the 2000+ QX4 with xenon lamps and the raised center console has aged well. They’re hard to find where someone’s still maintained them though. There was a guy at work who had an 03 Pathfinder LE since new, and at higher mileage it developed quite a few electrical issues, though he had maintained it.

          • 0 avatar
            GiddyHitch

            I’m surprised to hear that. What kind of mileage was it at? I find it surprising given how long that model had been around at that point.

            Mine was at 140k and 13 years old and the only electrical issue I had was a flaky ATC system at delivery because the interior temp sensor wasn’t connected properly.

          • 0 avatar
            CoreyDL

            Yeah, it was at 165K if I recall correctly. This was a couple years ago though – something was always wrong with it.

            Looked great from the exterior, nice bronze color.

  • avatar
    PrincipalDan

    As the owner of a used Toyota (purchased used) I am now in the camp that it seldom makes sense to buy any vehicle with strong resale value used. I may buy a NEW Toyota at some point in the future but I will not be buying one used. The Toyota mystique ain’t what it used to be but Joe Public thinks it is.

    • 0 avatar
      MBella

      I agree. The used prices are absurd.

      • 0 avatar
        Carlson Fan

        +1 – My first new vehicle was a Toyota PU back in 1993 because that’s what I wanted and the prices for used was absolutely stupid. Going new was the smartest way to go for something I drove for 11 years. They are good trucks, but like everything else I’ve owned they have their issues and are not invincible like all the Toy fan boys would have you believe.

      • 0 avatar
        operagost

        Cash for Clunkers.

    • 0 avatar
      CoreyDL

      Every time I look at used Land Cruisers, this happens. I think to myself, “Oh they’re getting old now, the prior gen. Probably with some miles on them they’ll be reasonable.”

      Why do I lie to myself this way? I view three Ebay listings, then go cry myself to sleep.

    • 0 avatar
      dal20402

      This. There are some vehicles that I would buy new or not at all and the 4Runner has to be near the top of the list. Also on it are most Subarus and a number of other Honda and Toyota products.

      • 0 avatar
        MBella

        When I turned my last Impress in after 3.5 years, the dealer bought it out. The car had an MSRP of less than $18k bought they put it on the lot for $15k. That’s not rational.

  • avatar
    andyinatl

    Wait, did i hear that right? So Volvo wagon is “too unreliable” but yet he’s looking to buy a used X5 or Cayenne? Has all logic been cast aside nowadays?

    All and any used cars will require repairs, sometimes very expensive ones, regardless of the country of origin. I am a multiple time Volvo owner, and haven’t really had any major issues with any of them, even ones with well in excess of 100K miles.

    On the other hand my brief stint into Landcruiser land was very expensive. I had 03 Lexus LX 460 for about two years, but then brake booster, which is something i never had to replace on Volvos of any vintage, failed, causing about $2000 damage to my wallet. Those suckers are expensive and price is more or less same whether at the dealer or on Ebay. Surprisingly, they also fail on 4Runners and fix/replacement is about same price. Just google “4Runner brake booster fail” and you’ll see what i’m talking about. And when this thing fails, there is no override, no back up, etc – the brakes are just gone. A lot of people claim that new cars have caught up to Volvo when it comes to safety; that is until the next test, or recall, or part failure uncover the truth.

    For full disclosure, my other car is Honda Civic and it’s been flawless. Flimsy and noisy, but flawless.

    • 0 avatar
      ToddAtlasF1

      The difference is you can fix a Land Cruiser and get your money out of it. A $2,000 repair on a Volvo has the lasting value of anonymously picking up a round of drinks in a Tokyo airport bar.

      • 0 avatar
        andyinatl

        That is correct. I still love that LX470. It had that classic look, visibility was awesome, i really enjoyed driving it. There may be another one in my future when it comes time to pass my Civic to my teenager kid and provided gas isn’t at $6 per gallon. The only other knock i had on that Lexus was the jittery ride and fuel economy. But those two could be easily overlooked….

        My wife’s XC90 has been treating us very well however, and the seats/ride/handling is much, much better

      • 0 avatar
        indi500fan

        LMAO…great post!

  • avatar
    ToddAtlasF1

    I see those middle ground SUVs eat people alive once or twice a week. If you live somewhere with rigorous annual state safety inspections, don’t touch anything older than nine years that doesn’t have a Toyota, Honda, Lexus or Acura badge on it. The price premium at purchase time is nothing compared to three days with no car at $114.39 an hour plus parts every year. I probably shouldn’t say this since I have friends who live off of other people’s bad vehicle choices, but there’s really something wrong with advising financial suicide.

    • 0 avatar
      ajla

      Well, I live in Florida so that means *zero* safety or emission inspections. Plus, zero rust unless you live very close to the ocean. I’m also fairly confident that I can fix on my own nearly anything on a pre-2005 American-brand SUV.

      So I personally don’t think the premium for the Japanese stuff would be worth it in my situation.

      • 0 avatar
        ToddAtlasF1

        I’m in Virginia, where state inspections are an instrument for removing people from car ownership. If you just need to make your car work, drive whatever you want. If you need your car to pass this: http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Safety.shtm#FAQSafety then you need something where stuff doesn’t fail constantly.

        • 0 avatar
          krhodes1

          Looks to be pretty similar to Maine’s inspection rules, though Maine is stricter about rust. NO holes, and NO ragged edges are officially allowed, even in non-structural areas. Maine also requires tires of at least the speed rating and load range originally installed on the vehicle, snow tires excepted for speed rating. VERY effective at removing old ill-maintained heaps from the roads. No emissions inspection other than no CEL and a gas cap check in a couple counties though.

          It should be a national standard. If you can’t maintain a car to these very minimum standards you should not be driving it.

          • 0 avatar
            ToddAtlasF1

            I’ve lived in a state that doesn’t have any vehicle safety inspections at all, although you can be ticketed for defective equipment. I never saw any evidence of a correlation between road safety and vehicle inspections. Zero.

            https://www.thezebra.com/insurance-news/3175/vehicle-inspections-really-safety/

            https://www.cga.ct.gov/2015/rpt/2015-R-0227.htm

            It’s just about social engineering and cronyism, like most government intrusions in life.

          • 0 avatar
            krhodes1

            You are entitled to your opinion. I prefer to have a reasonable standard of vehicles surrounding me in traffic. I have spent plenty of time in other states where rust is an issue, and what I have seen on the road horrified me.

            Back in college I had a buddy who went to school in Northern Wisconsin. He bought a Toyota truck there that was so rusty that there was literally NO floors at all in the cab, just carpet, and the bed fell of going around a corner. And only the front brakes worked. While he wasn’t killed in the thing, how is that safe in any possible universe? Yeah, maybe a very observant cop could have written him up for driving that heap, but I like to think the police have better things to do. It’s less than $20 and an hour of your time a year to make sure your car is at a minimum roadworthy standard. Doesn’t seem like a lot to ask to me.

          • 0 avatar
            stuki

            Judging by how enthusiastically Americans gobbled up crank started 1 wheel drive cars when they first came out, I suspect even a less than ideally maintained car by a wide margin trumps not being able to afford one at all.

            Some semblance of a minimum standard, simply to protect bystanders from wheels falling off, gas tanks regularly exploding from mere sun exposure, brakes outright failing etc. is probably, on balance, a wise thing. But once you give the busybodies a fraction of an inch, they’re not satisfied until only “approved” people are able to have their own car. In their Utopia, they and their social circle drives new Teslas or imports, and the rest can take the bus. Don’t make it easier on them.

          • 0 avatar
            krhodes1

            Get a grip. or maybe loosen your tinfoil hat, it’s constricting your brain.

            My only complaint about the current inspection regime is that the same shops who make money on repairs are the ones who do the inspections. HUGE conflict of interest. But the standards the state has set are quite reasonable, and easily met. And if you think you are being jerked around by a shop, the State Police actually are VERY responsive – I have disputed and won an inspection failure that I thought was unjustified. Painless.

          • 0 avatar
            ToddAtlasF1

            I was able to link to a couple of compilations of studies that showed no correlation between state safety inspections and highway safety, even in states that had safety inspections but bent to reason and stopped. I guess we’re each entitled to our own opinions. I prefer to be surrounded by reasonable people who let facts inform their opinions.

          • 0 avatar
            krhodes1

            Having looked at your links, the one comparing insurance rates and death rates is looking at the wrong things. Dying in a car crash is actually a VERY rare event from any cause. Insurance rates are based on so incredibly many factors that trying to draw a correlation based on whether or not a state also has an annual inspection is just silly.

            For the CT study, I question how good the data actually is. I have been in a few accidents over the course of my half million or so miles on the road. One my fault, most not. In no case was any sort of inspection of the vehicles involved done to determine whether an equipment failure contributed to the accident – that only every really happens in fatal accidents, which are very rare events. But I know for certain that in at least one case bad brakes was very much the cause of the woman rear-ending me – she told me as much! Cop didn’t care, she rear-ended me for whatever reason, no injuries, thus she was at fault, he was off to his next donut stop. How many times does that sort of thing happen and nothing is ever recorded? Given some of the horrors I have seen with my own eyes on cars here in a state WITH an inspection, the condition of cars that never have a professional look at them until something actually breaks scares the living heck out of me.

            We are spending ludicrous amounts of money turning cars into self-driving tanks. A few bucks a year to make sure all the bits are in decent shape is a pittance in comparison. Can’t afford it? Too darned bad.

          • 0 avatar
            Pch101

            Crashes are rarely linked to equipment failure. Even thorough safety inspections are probably not going to be able to prevent many of those few crashes that are related to equipment failure.

            The cost-benefit isn’t there to justify the inspection programs. They’re good for mechanics, but that’s about it.

  • avatar
    duffman13

    This is missing a lot of key information, most notably location, price range, age of vehicles in question, and intended usage.

    I’m inclined to agree with Sanjeev on going for the middle ground – generally a moderately used domestic so you’re not staring down the massive maintenance of a German car, while not paying the Toyota tax on the front end either.

    Finally, if it is a car for the wife, I have a hunch that primary duties are not going to be hauling or off-roading, which leads me to believe a late model crossover might be more up his alley, possibly a late 00s Ford Edge or escape based on price range and size needs.

  • avatar
    Kyree S. Williams

    Did the GMT3XX trucks have any issues? Maybe a Chevy TrailBlazer is up your alley, or if you want to get fancy, a Buick Rainier or Saab 9-7X. Those cars were available with a straight-six, just like the X5 :P

    • 0 avatar
      gtemnykh

      I was a about to say, if you’re willing to deal with a horribly cheap interior and a suspension that sounds like a bag of bolts unless you stay on top of things, and potential transfer case and transmission issues (easily replaced/rebuilt, just keep an emergency fund for the occasion), and some niggling interior, exterior trim and electrical issues, the GMT360s are cheap as chips and pretty sturdy rigs.

      • 0 avatar
        CoreyDL

        The interior of TrailBlazer-etc models was just not acceptable. Plus nowadays, they’re owned by the worst sort of people.

        The usual ownership profile of a Tahoe/Yukon compared directly to same age TrailBlazer items is very different indeed.

        • 0 avatar
          PrincipalDan

          “Plus nowadays, they’re owned by the worst sort of people.”

          That’s Hyacinth B-U-C-K-E-T, pronounced Bouquet…

        • 0 avatar
          gtemnykh

          I dunno Corey, there’s easily as many tinted, beaten to death GMT400/800 trucks (and now 900s) rolling round the hood as there are janky and battered GMT360s. At least around my way.

          • 0 avatar
            CoreyDL

            Stop going to bad parts of town jeez! Lol, overall I just think the TB models were/are much less robust than the GMT800.

          • 0 avatar
            gtemnykh

            Can’t help it, our church is down there. At least I only see it once a week now. Even in that small window we’ll inevitably see a bunch of police cruisers responding to something. There were back to back homicides at the gas station at the north side of the neighborhood this past weekend. Between that and some crazy who just got paroled shooting up the officer’s house (the guy who put him behind bars for 8 years) that was right down the street from our old rental, I’m glad to be out of there.

          • 0 avatar
            CoreyDL

            Holy crap, it’s like a war zone. I didn’t think south side Indy was that bad.

          • 0 avatar
            gtemnykh

            East side (just east of brookside). Near Northside (Martindale brightwood and Hillside neighborhoods) are arguably worse, but yeah it’s been crazy since spring. I think we get a lot of Chicago’s heroin supply and the dealers and turf wars that go with it. Nothing like Chiraq itself though, something like 52 people shot this weekend.

          • 0 avatar
            CoreyDL

            You know it’s bad when Google completes the following “Brookside Indianapolis” with “crime” as you’re typing it. Streetview tells me it looks kind of like Detroit over there.

        • 0 avatar
          krhodes1

          The Saab version was noticeably nicer, if still not up to the original asking price.

          Friends have had a 9-7x Aero with the V8 for a long time with minimal issues. Just too much money compared to old Land Rovers for me to be interested.

  • avatar

    If you are looking at BOF SUV’s, it might be worth taking a look at GSA auctions. I noticed recently that they have quite a few low-mileage Trailblazers and Explorers. Fleet maintained, but rather plainly equipped.

    • 0 avatar
      fincar1

      Along that line, old Forest Service rigs from dry, desolate areas like eastern Oregon or Nevada have to be well-maintained in order not to strand their users in BFE, and tend not to have rust issues.

    • 0 avatar
      Scoutdude

      A good place to find ex gov’t fleet vehicles is publicsurplus.com.

      Regarding Forest Service trucks many I’ve seen are quite beat up. Yes they may have had regular maintenance but they usually have a inch of mud inside and scratches, scrapes and dents that go well beyond the typical “consistent with field vehicles” you find in most of the gov’t fleet vehicle listings.

  • avatar
    CoreyDL

    “Suburbans (usually cheaper than Tahoes!)”

    Yeah, I have noticed. Who wants to try and park that crap? The 00-02 Yuk/Tahoes have aged worse than the 03-06 models, because they have a much mushier interior, and front seats where the seat belt strap went -through- the seat bottom, creating an intense wear point. 03+ fixed this issue with firmer seats and a more modern leather panel pattern, and they look much better today.

    Finding one without 180k miles on it for less than about $6500 isn’t happening though.

    And I wonder if it’s -really- a good idea to spend $5800ish on something from 2003 with 187k miles on it, even if it’s been well maintained.

  • avatar
    Zackman

    Our daughter has a 2007 Trailblazer bought new. Sure it had a few issues – fuel gauge float (grandfathered warranty), and a couple others like corroded inside bead alloy rims (fixed cheap), but the money she spent was a lot cheaper than getting rid of it and starting over again.

    Besides she loves it. It’s been a good vehicle for her.

    She didn’t buy a Toyota or Honda for one good reason: She WANTED a Trailblazer!

    • 0 avatar
      PrincipalDan

      How do the stereo buttons look? I’ve never seen a model more than a couple of years old that didn’t have the black buttons rubbed white.

      • 0 avatar
        Zackman

        Well, I haven’t noticed anything unusual about the stereo the last time I was in the car, because in spite of having two young daughters and a very tall husband, she keeps her space pretty clean. I’ll make a note to check and see next time I see them. Now I’m curious…

        The gold bowtie emblem on the tailgate cracked a long time ago, something they were somewhat famous for. Everything else works fine – so far!

        On my old 2004 Impala, some of the white print on the steering wheel controls was wearing off, especially on the cruise controls.

  • avatar
    Flipper35

    Go price a few used Wrangler Unlimited and then revisit the price on regular SUVs and you will feel better about what you get for the price.

    The Wrangler is special but for what he wants the others have much better prices for what he is after. Don’t look at any Gen2 Durango/Aspens. The newest Durangos look and feel well made but those middle children are not.

    Of the German choices the pepper wagon seems to have less issues than the others.

  • avatar
    bultaco

    How about a nice, low mileage, late production (’97-’01) Cherokee XJ? They go for $4-$6 grand, have sort of a “cool factor”, and will always be easy to sell when it comes time for something newer. They are arguably as reliable as the 4Runner, and most parts are in-stock at virtually any auto parts store, and are dirt cheap. They are easy to work on and any dribble-chinned, small town gas station mechanic can fix one. Durability is equal to the ‘Runner and they are about comparably rust-prone. They kinda have everything you need (a/c, power windows and locks, durable interiors, good cargo capacity, etc.) and nothing you don’t (sunroof, nav system, leather seats, complicated electronics, auto climate control, touch screens, etc.) I bought my ’01 as a disposable winter beater and loved it so much I ended up restoring it.

    • 0 avatar
      CoreyDL

      But think about that, $4-6k for something which is 20 years old and has rust on it. It’s hard to find them here in the Midwest which have not been turned into mudding/etc rigs, and the ones available stock with 150k on them – the owner wants $5995 because he’s doing you the favor of selling it to you! Oh, and also it’s pristine except for the blower motor doesn’t work and it leaks oil. You’re welcome!

    • 0 avatar
      gtemnykh

      “They are arguably as reliable as the 4Runner”

      “Durability is equal to the ‘Runner and they are about comparably rust-prone.”

      False and false. The 4Runner (let’s look at the 3rd gen 4runner) is definitely a significantly more overbuilt truck overall. Just look at the reputation of the axles in heavy use (Cherokee needs upgrades, Toyotas are left alone), and the lack of a frame on the Cherokee. And while the Cherokee’s 4.0L is a sturdy engine (and the Toyota developed Aisin AW4 automatic is great), there is a litany of mechanical weak spots that leave the I6’s unkillability somewhat academic in nature. Exhaust manifolds crack, cooling systems are junk, trucks made from 99-01 had a casting issues that leads to cracked heads. Bodies are much more rust prone than a 3rd gen 4Runner, maybe you’re thinking of the un-galvanized 90-95 4Runner as a comparison point.

      I make it seem like I hate XJs but I really don’t, it’s just a different class of vehicle. Believe me, I’d love to have both my 4Runner and an XJ in my vehicle fleet. 4Runner for longer trips or when I’m hauling a lot of people/stuff and overall dependability, Cherokee for just bombing around dirt roads heading down to a local trailhead to hike.

      • 0 avatar
        Sigivald

        Engine issues are for real.

        I wouldn’t think axle upgrades for offroading are relevant to “reliability” in general, since he’s not talking about a trail vehicle, just a general user.

      • 0 avatar
        Ryoku75

        Too true about the XJs crap cooling, Chrysler decided to make them use single-core radiators while the “grand” models got the duals the XJs needed.

        Years ago we had a Wagoneer in the family, basically a fat soft Cherokee. Wasnt really all that good at anything, high insurance, stupid cheap wood trim, and eventually its own doughnut spare killed the drivetrain (thanks Chrysler).

        Later we had an Izusu Rodeo which was actually a neat decent SUV, even though it was the 2WD model. Oh, and it had a full-size spare!

      • 0 avatar
        hgrunt

        Had a friend who tried to take this route and ended up having to spend way more money than he intended, just to keep it running. I think they appear to be more reliable than they might actually be, because it’s often enthusiasts who own an XJ and often have the time, space and knowledge to work on them, keep them maintained, etc.

        For someone who doesn’t have those resources, spending more for something newer, may be more pragmatic.

  • avatar
    Nick_515

    I am so grateful for the generalized fear of German cars. It allows me to drive far more expensive machines than I should given the money I spend.

    I am the proverbial third owner that actually maintains his German cars.

    I am currently looking for a late model E90. 2010s or 2011s with 50k’ish miles have dropped to $12-$15 range now. Say $14k. That is what, 40 percent of what it cost new? How much “deferred maintenance” can a 50k miles bimmer have provided there is evidence of oil changes every 10k or so and that it has not been an urban vehicle that kills suspension and stresses transmission?

    First and even second owners ate depreciation – of course they will not want to spend another dime past warranty. I definitively can, however. My colleagues buy Honda Fits for that kind of money. I drive a dream car. $1 to $2k a year maintenance is worth that to me. If it turns out to be a lemon, get rid of it at 80k miles. Good car? Keep it till 130k miles.

    And of course I have a trusted independent mechanic. I’d never do all this without it.

  • avatar
    jacob_coulter

    I notice anytime somebody runs down a brand, the charge of “they didn’t spend any money on maintenance” charge is played, but where is the evidence that say BMW owners don’t properly maintain their cars but Toyota owners do?

    Maybe many European makes have reliability issues not because of “deferred maintenance”, but they just simply aren’t as reliable?

    Just about every quality survey I’ve seen this shows up when compared to the Japanese equivalent, and even when the car is still completely covered by a factory warranty and a “negligent owner” can’t be blamed.

  • avatar
    George B

    I’d look at the 2009 and 2010 Ford Explorer with 4.6L V6 and 6R80 automatic. Crown Vic engine paired with F-150 automatic should be a tough combination.

  • avatar
    yamahog

    Pretty late to the party so I won’t filter out the acerbicness –

    Toyota trucks are expensive because they hold their value well but that does help their TCO. Why not get a 12k-15k 4Runner and sell it once it’s worth 8k? You could easily get 70k-100k miles out of the truck in the time it takes for the value to drop. Meanwhile, going from 80k to 180k on an X5 is going to cost you a mint in maintenance and depreciation. I’d be floored if an X5 with 180k sold for more than 4.5k outside of a buy here pay here lot.

    And BOF SUVs aren’t the only SUVs. CUVs are popular because they get the ride height and AWD while weighing significantly less. If you don’t want to put up the money for a used 4Runner, why do you want a vehicle that gets 16-22 mpg? You’d easily pick up 5 mpg in a Rav4 / CRV over a Tahoe / 4Runner and that’s going to save you a ton of money in the long run. And if you’re looking at unibody SUVs like the X5 and Cayanne, why not look at the Equinox, Pilot, and Highlander?

    BOF SUVs are expensive. Either you put the cash up front with a Toyota or a Nissan with a good history or you should get something that you can more easily afford like a unibody SUV.

  • avatar
    danio3834

    Sajeev dishes solid advice. WK1 Hemi Grand Cherokees are a good value too if you want more performance.

    • 0 avatar
      gtemnykh

      WK1s are hot garbage all around IMO (admittedly no direct experience with them, except for a Lyft ride in a very rattly one). Give me a well kept ZJ or WJ any day.

  • avatar
    gtemnykh

    Gentlemen, I give to you a ‘third way’

    A gen 1 Toureg that some crazy Russians stuffed a Supra 2JZ motor into:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZ5ktdPHS3A

    (this crew of guys is more well known for stuffing said Supra motor into GAZ Gazelle box trucks)


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