Chart Of The Day: Auto Brand Market Share In America In February 2015

Maybe their attitude was driven by their need to identify the "seriousness to purchase" of the potential buyer, you, and maybe you took too much of the dealership/salesperson's time. With auto sales brisk, no dealership wants to waste time on an indecisive individual who may, or may not, choose to bite on what the dealership is willing to offer. I'm NOT saying you were a looky-loo. I AM saying that the dealership did not want to waste any time on you when there were actual sales to be had, and money to be made. Chances are that dealership made one more sale yesterday by not spending more time with you. And that is really the only thing that mattered to the dealership.

@highdesertcat Definitely not the case. This was the case of, "he's professional, has money, and is in Microsoft territory. He's likely an idiot who doesn't understand the car buying process so we'll present him a $398 lease deal for 36 months on a Fiesta ST for $3K down as our starting point." Hey, guys, when I go to the Ford site, build my Fiesta, and even within the space of the disclamers we are almost 2X apart from the sites price and what our starting point is, the conversation is over. No, they hadn't pulled my credit file yet (hard without a DOB and SSN and they hadn't even asked) so that wasn't the issue - I have a 798 midscore and just paid off my house. My debt to income ratio is 2% but I show activity each month on my credit card (AX) which I pay off in full. They brought the manager over and with me on my smartphone showing him the steps nailed him on each lie: 1) That's based on the base price -- ummm, no it's not, it's based on the specific car I've built and the number changes as I build the car, see. 2) Well it doesn't include all taxes and fees - ummm, other than state tax and licensing which I would pay it does. The down payment is 10% of capitalization cost along with other lease fees for an out of pocket of $3200 to get to the $219 price on the Ford lease. 3) Well it doesn't include interest - ummm, yes it does, right here in the footnotes, based on interest rate of .25% for very well qualified customers. I would fall into that well qualified customer space At this point I said the conversation was over, and he was like, "well I don't want you to get mad." I'm not mad. I told your sales rep, this isn't a want, this isn't a need, this is an itch (think Bark M.) but if you're going to play games with me on what was pretty much a give me sale, this conversation is over. At $398 a month for 36 months I would be stupid to buy the Fiesta ST, when I run the math I could buy it on a 60 month USAA loan from a certified dealer at 2.25% and my payment would less. "Maybe it would." Oh buddy, I may have rolled up in the beater car and I'm not wearing my Bruno's but you just blew it. I walked out. I'd be really curious without Bark M. exposing his whole financial life what he ended up. But the song and dance that was going on that the Ford site basically lies on the payment figures (seriously, that is how they were positioning it) means: 1) Ford is lying and someone should report them for violations 2) The dealer is full of crap I find it impossible to believe that a high regulated major corporation, would cut their lease rates almost in half to just get people in the door. If that's how Ford as a corporation is selling vehicles, bait and switch on payment - then regulators should end the practice. What I think happened is the guy judged a book from its cover. was convinced I was a walking 580, and as someone in the tech industry a blithering idiot on the process of buying a car. My total time in the dealer is about one hour - most of that spent waiting on the sales drone to find me a car to test drive, and him up at the "desk" with the manager to get my "best deal."

@APaGttH Regrettably, your experience is the norm these days, (not the exception), if they don't want to talk to you (for whatever reason). Too many sales out there for the grabbing. Why waste time on someone? I can see that things have not changed since my brothers retired from the business the end of Sept 2012. Their sales staff often judged potential customers by their appearance. We, my brother and I, pulled a prank once on a young, university-educated, sales lady that worked for his dealership. She was sharp! I showed up at the dealership, walking off the street, wearing worn blue jeans, ratty old K-Mart $10 sneakers and a Dungeons&Dragons T-Shirt (my daily wear), with my pony tail tied back with a rubber band, hanging down to the crack of my @ss, and a gnarly unshaven face, donning Ray-Ban Aviator sunglasses. She was the sales person up next and cautiously approached me as I was (pretending) to eyeball the new cars on the lot. "Hi, can I help you find something?" We got to talking, I answered all her questions truthfully, but she never warmed up to me, never asked me for ID or copied my drivers license. I think she judged me by my homeless appearance if her snarl was an indication of her distaste for this situation and encounter. Clearly I was not her customer of choice. And she impaled me with that impression, as if dealing with an impertinent and willful child. Long story short, I spent about an hour with her, flitting from car to car, until she handed me her business card and told me with a faux smile, "Please keep me in mind when you decide to buy a car." At that time my brother, who had been monitoring from ins!de, behind the huge glass window, came out of the dealership and after a brief back and forth with the saleslady and I, he turned to the saleslady and said, "Alicia, I like you to meet my brother, Cat." True story, that! I didn't know a girl could turn so beet-red. She knew she'd been had. But I am certain she learned something that day she had never even addressed in her graduate studies. Don't let appearances, or the color of a person's skin, fool you. In real life, of course, the dealership's back office does a soft-pull on a potential customer, right at the beginning of the encounter. That's why they always want to make a copy of your drivers license. A wealth of info at DMV/MVD on a person.

Ford has been slowly losing market share in NA and Globally .As I have stated before. Mullaly 's "One Ford" has been a disaster . Hopefully new CEO will have a less myopic view of the world and try to address the challenges rather than avoid them

@APaGttH I've had similar experiences but the poorest sales experiences (please note plural) I've ever had occurred at the local FCA dealer. They always push all sorts of crap that catch a lot of people who don't do their homework. They got nailed for dishonest/misleading advertising and sales practices just recently and it has happened in the past. The Principal just got canned (press release stated "parted ways under mutual agreement"). The guy ran the business on ego as he qualified for the job because he dribbled out of the dick of a wealthy multi-dealer daddy owner.

@RobertRyan - "One Ford" unfortunately does not tend to account for local market variables. The only vehicles that they build more specific to local markets are pickups. The Mustang has gone "global" but so far it looks like it hasn't hurt them too much. Ford needs to get back on track with quality and durability. They had made huge improvements but now are slipping badly. They have pared down platforms and that may be an issue as well. F Series and Mustang are the only two products I'd consider in their portfolio and since I tend not to be an early adopter I'd most likely look elsewhere for a new truck if I needed a replacement right now.

@Lou_BC Correct, one Ford does not take in local variables. Good to see the slip in Quality is not restricted to Oceania. Mustang as yet has not been released, but Fanboys might be disappointed by the small size and the tiny 2 litre Ecoboost engine. Yes it will have a V8, but it is not a Falcon V8 or the Barra Turbo 6, pretty well going backwards

@Robert Ryan, With Ford leaving Australia and with the importation of the Mustang, Ford must look closely at quality. If it doesn't, Ford in Australia with US vehicles might find itself like FCA's Chryler arm here. It will be competing head to head with the Koreans. With the removal of the 5% import tax on vehicles in January EU and Japanese vehicles have gone down in price. I read the Corolla has dropped around $1k from $20k to $19k before any wheeling and dealing. This tax removal will drop a significant number of EU vehicles under the luxury tax threshold as well. What I'm stating is when the Mustang arrives and it has the lower US quality Australians will soon shy away from it and buy EU and Japanese performance vehicles. The Mustang has to perform as well as a HSV or FPV to make a positive impact in the longer term. If it can't succeed it will become a flop. Look at the Suburban. It flopped because of build quality was worse than what we currently get from China and India. The Explorer, what a lemon. It was a very easy vehicle to break and like the Suburban lacked any off road prowess. The Taurus, another flop due to poor quality and reliability. Even the current Grand Cherokee is getting the traditional Jeep/Chrysler reputation for spending a lot of time for warranty work. So far the US made vehicles have had a rough run in Australia. They could of been very good vehicles, except we expect better quality for the prices they want. That's why Jeep/Chrysler can only compete with the Koreans. And the Koreans offer better vehicles, almost on par with the Japanese. My prediction is Ford is in a slump. The 2015 F-150 will only amplify this situation Ford finds itself in. Many Frod fan boi's are hoping Ford can get it's act together. I don't think the F-150 will hit the spot. People will be wary of this radical approach. I think a diesel F-150 would have been the best way to make the required FE improvements. A cultural change is occurring in the US pickup market and we have a many different approaches in what the future US pickup will be as there are manufacturers. This is the time to knock down the protectionism offered to these styles of vehicles and have real progress in the US pickup market. The aluminium F-150 is going to put Ford in an awkward position for maybe years.

I know you get better treatment at a donut shop for few $$$. Not that I'm singling out Ford. Most of them are like that.

@highdesertcat, It's a similar situation here in Australia. From my experiences when dealing with car dealers I have found they seem to stick to a routine or a set of processes they were mentored in. Another issue I have found or I'm probably paranoid about is I think sales are bugged and there is actually another person listening and judging the responses from the potential customer. Back in 2004 when I bought my Kia I went into a car dealership that sold Mazda, Honda and Kia's. I had a trade in, I gave my keys to the salesman so my trade in could be assessed. I told him I was only interested in what we call here the "change over price". That is how much the customer has to come up with to make the deal. This salesman started to tell me all about the Sorento, or what he thought he knew. I explained to him I had a far amount of knowledge regarding the vehicle and I just want to get on with the wheeling and dealing. My research indicated I could driveway with a new Sorento with around a $24k change over. Well, we didn't agree, he wanted $31k. I told I was leaving and asked for my keys to my vehicle. He had the hide to tell me that I wasn't going to get my keys until we hammered a deal out. Well, when he stated that to me, my whole body went into a tense form shock and disbelief. When I tensed I inadvertently push a couple hundred pound table right under his rib cage quite hard. I thought the guy was going to collapse. Withn a couple of seconds a couple of guys came out running to quiet things down. My language was very abrupt and inappropriate as I was extremely angry now after the shock. I had my keys in my hands within a flash and I left. A few weeks later that dealership was closed down for forcing the elderly to buy a vehicle as they had tried on me. What sleaze bags. I ended up buying a Sorento for the $24k change over and it was the leather seated version, with all the bling,including a sun roof with a full tank of fuel. Here in Australia when you buy a new vehicle your first stop is generally a service station to refuel. One of the best vehicles I've ever owned. Never broke, I only put fuel in it and maybe an oil change when I remembered and comfortable as you'd want. The Korean made Sorento actually received the Best Global SUV 4x4 award in the end.

@highdesertcat I can't speak for all dealerships on the planet but at the dealerships owned by my brothers, the telephone console COULD be used to listen in on any conversation in any room on the system. They used the Rohm 9000 digital telephone systems and each unit could be monitored from any other phone on the system. You'd be surprised how few potential buyers will actually discuss what they are thinking while the salesman is talking to the sales manager. Only the truly uninformed will carry on a conversation within the confines of the salesman's office. When we stopped in Avondale (near Phoenix, AZ) to look at the 2012 Grand Cherokee that had attracted my wife's attention, my wife and I left the salesman's office every time he did, to carry on our conversation outside. The idea is to never let the salesmanager know what you are thinking. Dealership sales staff have honed the art of seperating us from our money to perfection, and they will use every trick in the book to gain the advantage. That's why I say, walk away, if you don't like the deal. But so few people actually have the balls to do that, letting their emotions override their better judgement. When my grand son bought his Accord V6 last year, I had loaded him up with all sorts of advice about trading his Wrangler, like carry a spare set of keys so you can leave when you want to. And also, go along for the ride when they evaluate your trade. Furnish the dealer a copy you made of your drivers license, never surrendering your original. But that was all for naught. My grandson told me after he made the deal, "Grandpa, I didn't have to do any of the things you cautioned me about. I had a really great buying experience in Kearney Mesa (San Diego), CA. They didn't jack me around and I got the car for under $30K including my trade." So, not all dealers are all bad all of the time. In the case of my grandson, they wanted his Wrangler trade in the worst way. And even my purchase of our 2012 Grand Cherokee was rather pleasant although I had to disappoint the dealership when I decided at the last moment not to trade the 2008 Highlander. Were they disappointed!!!

@Big Al From Oz, You listed the "stars" from the past that were imported from the U.S. Jeep started off OK, but mainly electronic glitches have really hurt that reputation. Another potential "star" is Winnebago, who have imported their Minnie Winnie's to Australia.The Caravans are " Travel Trailer" quality with somewhat gaudy exteriors The Product they got their name for is not imported into Australia, Motorhomes , but "Winnebagos" are being made by Talvor, who are rebranding their Rental quality MotorHomes into "Winnebagos " Genius stuff indeed.

@RobertRyan, The early US vehicles of 50s, 60s and into the 70s did have a pretty good reputation. I remember the F-100s and Chev pickups. The little International Scouts, they were a nice vehicle. Dodge pickups and trucks. But, back then they only really had shoddy UK and Australian vehicles to judge by. Then by the 70s the Japanese took over with reliable and affordable vehicles. This is when the US stumbled and the EU and Japanese excelled. That was the turning point. The US lagged in producing quality and only concentrated on quantity.

@BAFO - Quality is an ambiguous term, but EU vehicles have always lagged behind US vehicles in reliability. Now quality could mean the feel of the interior plastics and leather to ultimate reliability. A VW or Jaguar can leave you stranded, but if the owner didn't have to sit an touch hard American plastics for 3 hours waiting for AAA, all's good, no? Grand Cherokees are, but I don't know that Suburbans, Taurus' and others came factory with RHD. Hacked up conversions will affect "quality" dramatically. But if you'd rather own Chinese and Indian autos for their "quality", then do it. I doubt you will. But what are F-150 "style of vehicles" really protected from? Is there a Volvo pickup we don't know about? And aren't the Titan, Tundra, Ridgeline and Frontier protected just as much? Protection means automatic astronomical sales, no? Or does the Chicken tax *only* protect the trucks that sell very well?

@Big Al From Oz, They were the bad old days all round. Australian vehicles were better put together than the rubbish emanating from the U.S. at the time. ASIAN electronics also helped. Still the quality lag is still there for US vehicles way behind the Japanese and Koreans, born out in sales here and in NA

@RobertRyan, I tend to disagree....to a degree. Since the GFC in particular the US has improved markedly. Interior finish and panel fit is the most noticeable improvement. I should of pointed out by American made vehicles I mean Fiat Chrysler, Ford and GMs. But, as the US is constantly striving to improve, other nations are just that one step ahead. I have heard that the Klugers we are getting as of last year from Toyota are actually made in the US and they are very good. The same goes for a lot of BMW SUVs/CUVs. The quality of the BMWs is high. The British stuff has improved markedly. It's the Euro influence/buyout that has improved cars coming out of the UK. The vehicles that surprise me for quality is the quality of the Thai vehicles. They are on par with Korean vehicles and can even be better at times. It's the Japanese influence and benchmarks they set. Chryslers tend to have electronic issue as you stated. I'm hearing a lot of the Grand Cherokee owners have had some kind of electronic issue.

@Big Al from Oz Rebirthed vehicles from BMW, Mercedes, Toyota should be very little different to the other plants that make them elsewhere. US Vehicles from Ford, GM and FCA, have improved but still a way to go. New shiny paint does hide a few sins

@APaGttH This experience seems par for the course at dealers. The initial offer the Dodge dealer gave me was like 72mo@17% and purchase price slightly over sticker. Ford was about the same and all had $800+ dealer fees to contend with. Hyundai wasnt as bad but it was still 3x what I could get.

@OldWingGuy - In British Columbia towing is restricted to a percentage of GVW ONLY if you don't have trailer brakes. If the trailer is under 1400 kg you don't need brakes as long as you don't exceed 50% of the weight of the tow vehicle. In other words you need a 2800 kg vehicle to tow that 1400kg trailer. There is also a restriction on licencing. One needs a heavy RV tow driver's licence endorsement or a heavy tow endorsement if towing over 4,600 kg. Each province does appear to have slightly differing laws in that regard. I did find this link covering Canadian requirements. http://www.rvda.ca/ProvBrakeReqts.asp In my region of Northern BC I do not see any changes in pickup buying patterns but my region is more dependant upon logging than oil and gas. Most 1/2 ton crew cab 4x4's are personal use vehicles. Reg cab trucks whether HD or 1/2 ton tend to be work trucks. HD's regardless of trim level are mostly work trucks. I tend to see more 1 ton duallies as personal use. When ever I am in more urban dense cities like Calgary or Vancouver or even the GVRD, I am always surprised by the number of full sized pickups. Problems in the oil patch will more likely hurt high end pickup sales. 70-90k pickups appear to be pretty common place in Calgary.

@Lou Thanks. I don't get to Vancouver often. I can't imagine a daily commute there in a crew cab. Just too much congestion. Have a nice (warm) day. Spring is coming !

@OldWingGuy - thanks. Winter is on its way out.

@OldWingGuy, I haven't seen your name on TTAC prior to this. I do hope you enjoy this site. Thanks for your interest in my commentary. As you can see I attempt to be bi-partisan in my comments. Many here construed this as anti-American. First. I do believe the US system for towing is a farce, completely. US towing regulations were designed not for safety but to promote the sale of pickups and SUVs. Which are generally manufactured in the US due to protective measures including an extreme tariff. Go to any country outside of the US and observe what can and can't be towed behind vehicles. I do know in the EU and even Australia our cars tend to be rated to tow more than an equivalent US vehicle. They are in no way unsafe. This can be proven by the high fatality rate on US roads compared to EU and many other OECD economies. In Australia it appears we do have quite strict towing regulations compared to the US. Most States here reflect each other in towing and other road transport regulations. There is little deviation between them. They are uniform, standard. 1. Any trailer that has a GVM or over 750kg (1 650lbs) must be braked. Further on as trailer weights increase hitching and braking regulations change. 2. No trailer above 4.5 tonnes (9800lbs) can be towed, if the vehicle is rated to tow that much. So essentially any US HD can't tow more than 9 800lbs behind them. It is deemed unsafe due to the towing vehicles mass vs the trailer mass with a 10% hitch load. 3. 5th wheel setups can't exceed the manufacturers GCM. This is were a US HD could tow a significantly larger trailer as a 5th wheel. 4. Maximum tow speed in any state with a trailer in is 100kph. Business makes up around 50% of all pickup sales in the US and around 50% of these business pickups are used as daily drivers. They are a tax write off. We have the same here with businesses stretching the law. So, irrespective of the downturn in the oil industry in the US by far the largest segment of pickup customers are the ones after a daily driver. These customers are after a large car/SUV alternative. Yes some may tow, but how much weight? Most would be lucky to tow a 16'-18' boat or at most a 4-5 000lb camper trailer or a utility trailer than can only carry a couple of tons. Now I'm not stating no one tows larger weights, but I do question the frequency. I travel 2-3 times a year to the US and I don't see many 1/2 ton pickups towing, let alone a 10 000lb trailer. So, I see the US pickup market (1/2 ton) moving more towards the SUV and lifestyle vehicle. They are becoming expensive and yes they are selling quite well, but pickups aren't selling like they were 20 years ago or so. Business do buy pickups and use them, but remember because you see half the pickups on the road for business use creates a false impression of the actual use of the US pickup. How many are sitting in parking lots at work. The daily drivers.