By on January 12, 2015

Rust. Shutterstock user Sirinn3249

TTAC Commentator Calgarytek writes:

Hey Sajeev,

I enjoy reading your posts on TTAC. This one is a chassis related question and concerns rear quarter panel rust issues on old school Hondas.

I’ve got a 2000 Civic SiR and I’ve poked around the rear wheel wells to figure out why that may be. It seems that Honda didn’t seal the rear quarters well enough. There is no sealant present on the inner skin of the outer portion of wheel well. The outer skin just tends to ‘fold’ into the inner well and just ‘sit there’ as exposed metal.

The question is – would applying seam sealer to the above mentioned locations protect the quarters? If so, can you recommend a brand?

If you’re wondering, I’m helping my younger cousin buy a non-rust-belt-based 2000 Acura EL. We’re planning to winterize the vehicle during the summer time when he eventually gets it.

Sajeev answers:

Thank you for your note, and for reminding us Americans that cooler Hondas are available outside of our borders.

Before answering, one point of clarification: what you see isn’t “exposed metal” waiting to rust.  As part of the assembly line process (all?) manufacturers dunk their cars into a rustproofing bath to minimize corrosion.  Peep this vid:

Also note how BMW’s machine applies seam sealer after the rustproof dunk. But in the case of Honda rear wheel arches…well, I wonder if any manufacturer uses seam sealer there. It’s gotta be a messy proposition.

On to your question: if you are positive you’re applying seam sealer to a rust free, dirt free, dry and solid meeting of two panels, by all means go ahead! My big concern is trapping dirt, water or anything else that can cause the panel to rust under the seam sealer.  Hence why the rustproofing “dunk” at the factory is so cool.

A company called POR-15 makes a host of products for the pre-seal, I do not know of an alternative that works as well. OTOH, seam sealer is available from a host of manufacturers sold by even more vendors. Not being a body man by hobby or trade, I’m offering this as a guide instead of making a recommendation.

There you go, Best and Brightest.

[Image: Shutterstock user Sirinn3249]

Send your queries to [email protected]com. Spare no details and ask for a speedy resolution if you’re in a hurry…but be realistic, and use your make/model specific forums instead of TTAC for more timely advice.

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57 Comments on “Piston Slap: Feelin’ Rotten sans Seam Sealer?...”


  • avatar
    Omnifan

    Two sided galvanized steel coupled with e-coat primer are the reasons why later vintage cars are more rustproof. In fact, many cars made after 2000 only have e-coat primer on the underside of the body. The Japanese manufacturers were later to the party on this technology, thus the rust.

    Good luck with the seam sealer. Just be sure, as Sajeev mentioned, not to create sealed crevices where water will collect.

  • avatar
    bullnuke

    The major problem with older Honda vehicles corroding was the coating system they used for many years. I worked for a major OEM coatings manufacturer from the early ’90s until 2009. We all wondered back then why Honda hadn’t yet gotten onto the electrocoat-dip process (they were still using a phosphate wash of some sort IIRC) prior to priming/painting/clearcoating. Honda back then favored JDM paint manufacturers and coating systems. I believe that they waited until the late ’90s – early ’00s to start using electrocoat. We painted a couple of colors for them as a test but they booted us out because of “appearance” issues (read: price). Toyota and Nissan used us as well as did most of the Big Three, BMW and Mercedes. They didn’t readily corrode. Honda vehicles did.

    • 0 avatar
      CoreyDL

      So then Mazda didn’t get into the phosphate wash until dumping their saline wash process around 2009? Lol.

    • 0 avatar

      Bullnuke, thank you for sharing: this kind of insight is precisely why I created this series.

      • 0 avatar
        DeadWeight

        Sajeev – Here are keys to kingdom that has worked on my 9 year old (that has now seen 9 Michigan, salt-laden winters) RX-8, and is 100% rust free, from the you undercarriage to the frame rails, to the wheel wells. You’re welcome:

        1) Clean car thoroughly from top to bottom in September or early October.

        2) Wire brush behind fender wheel well lips to remove accumulated debris.

        3) Dry vehicle thoroughly.

        4) Apply Known, Fluid Film, or my favorite, CRC 06026 Heavy Duty Corrosion Inhibitor
        ( http://www.amazon.com/CRC-06026-Heavy-Corrosion-Inhibitor/dp/B0000AXYA0 ) liberally to frame rails, all undercarriage exposed surfaces – but cover catalytic converter, brake pads and rotors with plastic bags.

        5) Let dry to waxy finish and let creep for several days, preferably in above 55 degree weather.

        6) Critical step – Apply Amsoil Heavy Duty Metal Protector ON TOP of the initial creeping oil (Krown, Fluid Film or CRC) in HEAVY WASH AREAS such as wheel wells, frame rails, etc.

        7) Let cure/dry in preferably above 55 degree temperatures for at least 24 hours before exposing to moisture.

        8) Repeat this procedure (even though temps will be colder) in late December if heavy snows occur, or latest January, at latest.

        Boom, son!

        • 0 avatar
          rpn453

          Sounds like a good system, except that I’d be scared to use a wire brush on the fender. Is that nylon, steel, brass . . . ?

          I brush out the inner lips of my ’04 Mazda3 fenders with a straw wisk; basically a miniature hand-held version of a straw broom. After, I use the thick green Rust Check ins1de the fenders and the thin red Rust Check ins1de the doors. I do it every spring and fall, and it has worked for me so far. I like the dual layer idea though. Maybe I’ll try giving the fenders a shot of the thin stuff before using the heavy stuff next time.

          • 0 avatar
            DeadWeight

            Not a wire brush as in a grinder or wheel, but a literal brush, preferably in something rigid like copper or stainless steel – maybe a very robust nylon could do – that can be used BEHIND the wheel well lip, on the unpainted surface, to remove the accumulated detritus.

    • 0 avatar
      gtemnykh

      It’s strange to hear that Nissan supposedly had better corrosion protection because in that same span of about 95-05 Nissans seem to be even worse offenders than Honda in terms of rust. The 95-99 gen Sentras are awful, worse than Civics in this regard, likewise 95-99 Maximas really suffer worse than Accords it seems. Altimas, particularly the 98-01s get absolutely eaten up, as bad as any Mazda Protégé (my measuring stick for worst rusting car in recent history). pathfinders and QX4s had a recall for suspension mounting points rotting out. Even the 2002 gen Altimas had floorpans(!) that rust out in this day and age. Could it be a worse quality steel?

      • 0 avatar
        EAF

        GT,

        I find that each and every one of your posts mirror my own experiences almost exactly. Are/were you an independent repair shop owner/worker?

        I say it often; Nissans of the era described, in my opinion, were easily the worst rust offenders. They may even still be the worst till this day. I would have a clutch job on an Altima/Maxima, and I’d spend more time repairing corrosion spots that I had disturbed than anything else.

        Even when placing a Nissan on the lift I had to be careful, often body seams and jack points were no longer structurally reliable.

        • 0 avatar
          gtemnykh

          Haha I’m flattered EAF, but no I don’t have my own shop. I’m an automation engineer by trade. I just spend WAY too much time around my brother (who is an indie mechanic) and his indie mechanic friends, and spend way too much time researching potential used car options on forums. I also have just made a weird habit of observing how cars age, and what goes wrong on what models. I personally stick to doing my own maintenance and easier repairs that can be done with my own simple collection of hand tools. I currently live in an apartment and rent a garage in the building, so I’ve had the good sense to not antagonize any neighbors by buying an air compressor and air tools, nor bringing my mig welder from back home :) I do do my yearly application of undercoating oil in the garage, something that requires me to put my 4runner on jackstands, heat up an old pot full of Fluid Film on a camp stove, and apply it with a garden sprayer. pretty sure I’ve gotten some funny looks for that one! “What’s that crazy Russian kid up to now”

          • 0 avatar
            mikey

            @gte…Excellent idea.. I knew a few guys, that would cook up a cocktail of used motor oil {claimed the used stuff adhered better} transmission fluid, and thinned it with furnace oil. I little scary for my liking..but it worked.

          • 0 avatar
            gtemnykh

            I personally started off with used motor oil thinned with kerosene. Followed by driving up and down a dusty dirt road so it would all stick. The stink and mess wasn’t worth it to me. $40 buys me a gallon bucket of Fluid Film, with thins to a sprayable viscosity when heated. I think it is non-toxic lanolin based so the smell is interesting in its own way, but nowhere as pungent as all those petroleum products. it also forms a waxy layer when it cools so there is minimal drip after applying it. So there’s even an environmentally friendly/non-toxic angle to it.

        • 0 avatar
          bullnuke

          Well, we supplied coatings that worked well for some manufacturers but not as well for others. Quality of steel used was mentioned; another issue is cleanliness of the body/assembly of the raw body. Quality Assurance is major for coatings (flash corrosion on panels prior to coating, any contamination from silicones, etc.). We had a major issue with a Chevrolet plant building S-10s; the coatings were failing on tailgates in the lot outside the factory. Found that one of the assemblers would put lotion on her face at break-time and return to installing things without washing her hands/using gloves. The lotion caused the coating to fail on several hundred new trucks. We, of course, were blamed for our “lousy coatings” until the investigation revealed what was actually happening.

      • 0 avatar
        bullnuke

        Little late for this additional comment (spam filter killed me). gtemnykh and EAF are on to the problems we had with our coating systems – quality assurance at the assembly plants. Our coatings worked well at some plants/with some manufacturers and not well at others. Steel quality, cleanliness of the raw body after assembly, welding processes and no contamination from s*licones were crucial for successful application of coatings. One issue that comes to mind was at a Chevrolet S-10 plant. Our coatings were failing on the tailgates in the storage lot outs*de the factory. Of course it was our “lousy coatings” caus*ng the problems. Investigation showed that one of the assembly workers would put lotion on her face during break-time and return to the line without washing/wearing gloves. The traces of s*licones from the lotion on her hands caused adhes*on failure on more than a hundred vehicles.

        • 0 avatar
          calgarytek

          @bullnuke:

          Interesting insight regarding Honda’s late adoption of eletro-plating. It seems they it got better with each subsequent generation. The 8th generation Civic is holding up well from the looks of it.

          The S-10 tailgate coating failure story is mind blowing…

  • avatar
    danio3834

    He call this the “Honda Rust”. Basically anything you can do to keep the moisture and road debris out will help. A rust inhibitor treatment (oil spray) fromt he inside and out will be a good preventative measure.

  • avatar
    mfgreen40

    That is one cool video. I would love to see a complete assembly line video. Are there any out there?

    • 0 avatar
      CoreyDL

      British-Leyland had some. You can watch them use different screwdrivers and hit panels with a rubber mallet to make them fit.

    • 0 avatar
      mikey

      @mfgreen40…I’m sure there is many video’s available. I have one that runs through my head, that I cant shut off.

    • 0 avatar
      kovakp

      “That is one cool video.”

      Sure is. Fascinating to watch the optical testing as well as the agility of the ‘bots. And some are wearing sleeves and mittens!

      Meatspace workers are SO done.

      • 0 avatar
        mikey

        I was still working in assembly, when the first Robots came in. Late 80’s..? We had two of them torqueing cradle bolts. Bert, and Ernie we called them.. If they were inactive for more than a few hours. The trades guys had to come in early, to give the bots a little work out, or they couldn’t keep up with the line.

        Bert and Ernie were identical, however Ernie was the more tepremental. Go figure

      • 0 avatar
        mikey

        The sleeves and mittens, serve two purposes. They protect the body from scratches, and chips. They also keep the over spray from gumming up the mechanics.

    • 0 avatar
      bumpy ii

      One of those old Car & Track videos had some clips from a promotional film for the Chevy Vega, including the dip process for the body shell.

    • 0 avatar
      Felis Concolor

      I don’t have a full assembly line video, but here’s a quick link to some vintage Pinzgauer porn, including the hot tank dip at ~4:40. http://youtu.be/eZhXZ0G9Gc8

  • avatar
    mikey

    I’m going to assume your out west, where the cooler temps, cut back on the use of salt. Being from Southern Ontario I have years of experience with rust.

    I’ve have extensively researched the idea of bring a “rust free patina” truck up from the USA. {90-99} Chevy/GMC long box The plan is to use it as a daily, driver year round.

    First off make sure you start with a rust FREE vehicle. Just because it comes from the southern USA, does not mean it won,t have any rust issues.. The body can look great, and the sub frame, can be garbage. I personally know people that have been burned, and burned bad. They have let nostalgia get in the way of common sense.

    Do you plan is to drive a 25 year vehicle, of any make, on salted roads ? If the answer is yes. I have mentioned this before here. Exposed metal on ANY part of vehicle,will rust. I include brake/ fuel lines, struts, and strut towers, front end components. All very expensive parts.

    An annual liberal application of an oil based rust inihibitor, is a must.

    • 0 avatar
      gtemnykh

      Agreed mikey, I spray down my 4Runner with Fluid Film, and pay extra attention to get all of the fuel and brake lines liberally coated, as well as inside the frame rails as best I can Another thing is I avoid temperature swings when there is salt on the truck. if it’s salty, I keep it out of the garage unless it’s absolutely insanely cold to avoid hard starts(-15 F nights here in Indiana last week). When weather starts to warm up I go to the carwash and wash salt off, taking a solid 5 minutes just on the underbody. My Toyota was in excellent shape when I bought it, having missed every winter since 2002. There was only a few spots of superficial surface rust on a few of the skid plates and a few seams on the frame. I plan to keep it that way.

    • 0 avatar
      Felis Concolor

      I’ll emphasize the rust-free caveat; my Pacer project car had been purchased from a field in west Texas, and looked flawless – until we removed the dashboard and interior bits. The rusticles on the right side of the firewall were Titanic class, and were precipitated by the years of dust which had blown into every exterior crevice. In most areas, the particles fell right back out, but where they had compacted in the firewall area, they also wicked up all the moisture experienced during occasional cloudbursts. Returning to the normal heat and humidity experienced in the region, and you get serious rust deep within the body while the exterior and easily examined underbody areas look great.

    • 0 avatar
      Felis Concolor

      Alright, here’s a duplicate posting, this time entered slowly.

      I’ll emphasize the rust-free caveat; my project car had been purchased from a field in west Texas, and looked flawless – until we removed the dashboard and interior bits. The rusticles on the right side of the firewall were Titanic class, and were precipitated by the years of dust which had blown into every exterior crevice. In most areas, the particles fell right back out, but where they had compacted in the firewall area, they also wicked up all the moisture experienced during occasional cloudbursts. Return to the normal heat and humidity normal to the region and you get serious rust deep within the body while the exterior and easily examined underbody areas look great.

    • 0 avatar
      Felis Concolor

      I’ll emphasize the rust-free caveat; my project car had been purchased from a field in west Texas, and looked flawless – until we removed the dashboard and interior bits. The rusticles on the right of the firewall were Titanic class, and were precipitated by the years of dust which had blown into every exterior crevice. In most areas, the particles fell right back out, but where they had compacted in the firewall area, they also wicked up all the moisture experienced during occasional cloudbursts. Returning to the normal heat and humidity experienced in the region, and you get serious rust deep within the body while the exterior and easily examined underbody areas look great.

      Okay, this is screwed up. Per earlier comments from other users, I just removed “s!de” from the failed posts and it gets through; have you figured out why that particular character string enables the post-eater?

  • avatar
    heavy handle

    The answer, as always, is Krown Rustproofing. Seam sealer will just trap moisture and salt.

    Also, take the car to a body shop pre-purchase. Ask an experienced tech to tell you if the car has ever been re-painted and if it’s rusting. It’s amazing what a trained eye will spot that you won’t.

    • 0 avatar
      Halftruth

      I know this post is talking about older vehicles but I have to mention this.
      A body man I know used to work the docks in Boston fixing cars that were damaged in transit. They have whole body shops right on the dock to repair and paint. It is not reported to insurance and is standard operating procedure from what he told me.

    • 0 avatar
      calgarytek

      If seam sealer traps moisture and salt, why is it extensively used throughout various vehicles. Seam sealer can fail, yes, but it’s purpose is to seal joints and welds. If Krown Rustproofing were the answer, then most vehicles would be ‘Krowned’ at the factory. It doesn’t look this way.

      Sajeev’s link to the BMW video did give me some insight as to how I should tackle rust proofing those rear quarters. Since you’ve got an outer skin that wraps around the inner skin, I think Honda’s initially rust from the inside before the outside elements accelerate the process.

      Because there is no way to get to the inner panel as it joins the exterior panel, I think I should:

      [Inside]
      1. Displace existing moisture using compressed air to ‘effectively dry’ the area.
      2. Use a ‘rust encapsulator’ product to stop any existing corrosion from spreading.
      3. Spray in fluid film.

      [Outside]
      This is the part I’m not sure about. If there is corrosion, then the only solution would be to strip the part to bare metal, neutralize, and then apply POR-15 process before putting on a top coat.

      However, if there is none, I suppose I can apply primer/truck bed coating over the area and skip the seam sealer all together, or prime/paint/seam seal/paint.

      I’m at a loss. I suppose I should contact that dude from DIY How To Paint A Car School on YOUtube to get his opinion on it.

  • avatar
    mfgreen40

    Mikey— I am sorry about that video you can not turn off, in the meantime we enjoy seeing it through you. After 23 years of rust belt life, I finally sold ( yes sold, not junked) my big body on frame GM wagon. Even with a 6 inch hole in the bottom of the frame the doors still shut nicely but not much metal left under the bottom door molding.

    • 0 avatar
      mikey

      I was on, and off the “Gas tank install” job for more years than I can count. Every 5th job at the Oshawa B assembly was the Chev, Pontiac, or and American Pontiac, wagon. The wagon used a different tank and was installed before body drop. So in line lingo, we called the wagon a “free job”….I loved wagons !

  • avatar
    e30gator

    It amazes me just how eaten-up a car can get up north after just 10-15 years. My parent’s ’77 Volare was driven down to Florida in ’82 after just 5 years in Ohio and it was rusted junk by that time. Granted it was a Volare, but still.

    I have often wondered if it would be worth it to round up 3 or 4 rust belt cars that were ready for the scraper (but had good drivetrains, bring them to Florida, and swap the engines into solid bodies which can also be found for peanuts here. 2000 Civic, rusted and ready for the junkyard for $500? 2000 Civic, solid body with blown engine for $500? Would it be worth it for the amount of work? Dunno.

    • 0 avatar
      Halftruth

      I met a guy who would buy cars from certain New England states that had some rocker rust and other non-frame related rust problems and sell them in New York for big profits. Apparently, rocker rust thru in New York is not a fail item (or at least it wasn’t a few years back). He was buying good running cars of all sorts and shipping them over there and making a killing.. So yes, you can make some money on them without having to fix them!

    • 0 avatar
      indi500fan

      Depends on what you value your labor (or management skills) at.
      I see Hispanic guys at the PickAPart that are pretty darn fast and probably working pretty cheap. You could certainly try out the concept without a significant capital investment, assuming you have a basic facility of some sort. But my gut feel is this would be more of a subsistence business, not serious profits.

      • 0 avatar
        gtemnykh

        That would be an interesting business model, I wonder about the logistics: Do you pull the engines up north, stick them on pallets and swap them into the cars, then sell the cars locally down south? Do you drive the cars up north after the repair to sell them as super clean rust free daily drivers? Do you ship the immobile rust free bodies north, where you then swap the engines in?

        It doesn’t take THAT qualified of a person to just swap a motor over if all of the wiring/accessories match up (ie having the exact same year/model/drivetrain). But that’s a big IF. Also, you’d have to be sure the junkyard motor was a solid unit.

        • 0 avatar
          danio3834

          I’ve thought about it, but only done with onesie-twosies with older classics where it’s hard to find a clean example in the north.

          The costs of cosmetic repairs to the northern vehicles has to significantly outweigh the cost of logistics of shipping the southern vehicles, and with most modern vehicles, there’s usually a good looking example not far away even in the rust belt. The cost of swapping powertrains more or less equals body work time in many cases as well.

          For run of the mill type cars, there’s always a cheap n shady body shop willing to do a quickie cosmetic job at a low price that 90% of people will accept as good enough.

          • 0 avatar
            mikey

            @danio3834…I found several vehicles in the U.S that meet my criteria. I’ve done the math. Just getting away, presents some problems for me. Then I calculate flight costs, US- Cdn exchange rates,tranportation costs, and import/cutoms issues ???

            I agree with you. I’ll find what I’m looking for, up here.

        • 0 avatar
          e30gator

          I’m thinking the cheapest, easiest way to do it would be to drive a flat bed up north, yank the engines and scrap the bodies up there. Then bring crated engines back south and seek out the bodies to put them in. Then you also have a junk engine to scrap out once you’re done.

          If you could have about $1000 plus labor and travel expenses into each car, minus the value of the scrap body and engine (and assuming you’re getting $3k-ish from each sale), you might be okay.

    • 0 avatar
      FormerFF

      It’s been my observation that the cars down here get sent to the junkyard because the soft parts start failing, not because the engine or transmission has gone out.

      Also consider if the car’s exterior is rusty, chances are that some of the accessories have a similar affliction, plus you’ll have a hard time disassembling the old rusty car. Add to this the low value of old high mileage cars, and I don’t think you have a viable business, at least not with mainstream cars.

    • 0 avatar
      George B

      e30gator, my plan would be to buy running cars from the South that were scrapped in the summer because air conditioning repairs exceeded the value of the car and sell them in the Salt Belt as winter beaters. Use mechanics who work on air conditioning to identify suitable cars. Labor costs would be low because the cars are sold as-is. The tough part is sorting cars to find ones worth transporting.

      • 0 avatar
        28-Cars-Later

        Nice plan but I think you’re going to possibly run into transportation overhead and artificially high valuation which will eat into your margin. How much can your average person spend on a beater? 2K-4K I say tops, and I know many folks where a few hundred dollars can be a make or break deal due to, um, poverty. Transportation might be 500/car or more on a carrier. How much are running cars in the South going for A/C notwithstanding? I see the logic but I’ve seen plenty of people suck it up and drive in hot weather so I wonder how much people are willing to let their rides go for.

        • 0 avatar
          FormerFF

          I live in Atlanta, and anything running decently that is not 20 years old or has more than 250,000 miles will fetch $2000.

          • 0 avatar
            28-Cars-Later

            Precisely. Plus transport up North. Plus reconditioning. Plus any emissions troubleshooting the statists may enforce in the Northeast vs the South. This could maybe work when the cars were $900 as-is and you had a 2K or more margin to work with. Now realistically one is cutting it close with this strategy.

          • 0 avatar

            28 Cars is correct. The Check Engine light will kill you. I understand that cars in strict states go in the opposite direction, to easy states.

            I’ve a CE on one of my cars for a “catalyst inefficient”, even though the car runs great. I’d tape the light over but for the inspection looming.

            Acura thinks that a cat lasting 110k is sufficient, and that I could pay $1300 for a new one…meanwhile, the BMW has gone 300k. I’d have zero compunction about a piece of black tape.

  • avatar
    Felis Concolor

    I can no longer read “POR-15” without recalling my unnecessary order to Eastwood for the full rusty fuel tank repair and resealing kit – only to discover Steyr had constructed my 40 year old Haflinger’s fuel tank using an epoxy coating tinted a lovely shade of rust red.

    The upside to that unnecessary disassembly step did lead to an easier reinstallation of the 12′ long mixture control cable.

  • avatar
    Felis Concolor

    Alright, parsing for the post-killing string:

    I can’t read “POR-15” without remembering an unnecessary purchase several years ago from the Eastwood catalog. After receiving my full fuel tank repair and resealing kit, I discovered Steyr had constructed my Haflinger’s fuel tank with a high quality epoxy sealant tinted a lovely shade of rust red.

    On a positive note, removing the fuel tank made life easier when it came time to install a new, 12′ long carburetor mixture control cable.

  • avatar
    scwmcan

    I have noticed that my 09 Matrix has some sort of sealer on this seam ( from the factory ). It is the first car I have seen with this. Hopefully it will help keep rust away from this area at least for a few more years yet.

  • avatar
    onthehunt

    I know I am late to this post but… I see comments about Krown and Fluid Film. Anyone heard of Corrosion Free? Their website advertises it as “the best rustproofing”. Does anyone have experience with it?

  • avatar
    Jgwag1985

    POR15 waste of time. Used it per directions (all steps correctly followed) and it peeled off after a year. I had the Krown process performed on a car and was impressed. It is a yearly process though……………but I could not stand the car and after a year I got rid of it. But I will use Krown (Carwell same thing) on my Jeep when out of storage……Hagerty insurance did an article on undercoating, and recommended Krown/Carwell products. Again it must be done annually, but it’s worth it.

    • 0 avatar
      DeadWeight

      POR-15 was the be-all, end-all, miracle solution to rust prevention 3-4 years ago.

      Fast forward to today, or even a year or two ago, and horror stories abound regarding the crap just coming off in sheets – even when metal/surface prep directions were adhered to religiously, on everything from truck beds, to frame rails, and on everything from trucks, to passenger cars, to tractors and combines.

  • avatar
    gzuckier

    Just wondering; might the rust through not be worse if the steel is thinner, because of using high strength steel?

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