By on December 30, 2014

Traffic stop courtesy northescambia.com

There is more wacky traffic enforcement news coming out of Missouri this month than any other state. Last week, the Missouri attorney general began proceedings to shut down the ability of thirteen speed-trap-infested towns to generate excessive revenue from traffic tickets. Also last week, the cities of O’Fallon, Lake Saint Louis and St. Peters filed suit against St. Charles County saying its residents illegally voted for a ban on red light cameras. The suit actually admitted that the rationale was the potential loss of revenue rather than due to any safety concerns. Even better, the former mayor of St. Peters was convicted in 2006 of accepting cash kickbacks from a red light camera company. (For a truly astounding list of government officials who have been caught taking bribes from photo enforcement companies, go here.)

The big story is that the Missouri ACLU is going after the police department in the Kansas City suburb of Grain Valley for issuing tickets to motorists who tried to warn other drivers of speed-traps by flashing their headlights or high beams. My first thought was: wow, people really still do that?

The ACLU claims that such charges are unconstitutional based on the first amendment, saying that motorists are only expressing their right of free speech and their right to communicate with other drivers. They previously won an injunction against the City of Ellisville, Mo. banning the practice and will likely prevail here.

I say the practice is dying out. I drive a lot of miles, primarily on the West Coast, and cannot remember the last time I saw someone flash their lights to warn me of a speed-trap up ahead. During snowbird season here in Arizona, you do see tons of high beam flashing due to the elderly pulling their combination turn signal/high beam stalks when they signal a turn, so those do not count.

New technology may also be to blame for the demise.  My Mercedes-Benz came equipped with Adaptive Highbeam Assist which does not allow for the flashing of the bright lights unless you change the settings in the COMAND system or turn off the automatic headlights. The widespread adoption of daytime running lights and automated headlights may means some drivers never even bothered to learn how to use their lights or high beam controls.

I also think that Generation Why has no idea what headlight flashing means and besides, who can text and flash their lights at the same time?

So do you flash your lights to warn of speed-traps or see others do it in your travels?

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88 Comments on “ACLU Challenges Arrests For Headlight-Flashing To Warn Of Speed-Traps...”


  • avatar
    hotdog453

    I still see a lot of “flashing headlights” out on country roads, 2 lane roads. Driving to the in-laws for the holidays on 2 lanes, got flashed at like 4-5 times, each time warning of a cop up ahead. I return the favor whenever possible.

    Or, even better, Waze. That’s like headlights on crack.

  • avatar
    bikephil

    I do it every time I see a cop hiding out on the highway. Every day!

    • 0 avatar
      Pig_Iron

      If the idea is enforce the speed limits, and others are helping by flashing, then what’s the problem? It seems like criminal law is being used for the most minor offences now, and states and municipalities are turning nearly everything into an offence… often a deadly one.

      • 0 avatar

        Any encounter with armed law enforcement can end very badly. Now that so many government agencies have their own armed police forces, that’s a big problem.

        Every legislator should have to read “Are you willing to kill someone over this law?” before casting their votes. The state has a monopoly on force and on violence and criminalizing anything means that ultimately, you’re willing to kill someone to enforce that law, whether it be prohibiting selling automatic weapons or loose cigarettes.

        • 0 avatar
          hreardon

          Ronnie –

          Exceptionally well put. Agreed 100%

        • 0 avatar
          05lgt

          Reminds me of a trip to 7-11 with my little girl for a post swim treat. 6+ LEO’s milling around ins!de and out. I asked at the counter, because even a white 50YO with a military background doesn’t want to talk to police unless necessary, and was told that someone had been seen out by the Red Box with a gun. I said, “well, I see half a dozen now. Who do we call this time?”

      • 0 avatar
        npaladin2000

        The idea isn’t to enforce the speed limits of course. Everyone knows it, but few are willing to come right out and say that speeding tickets and speed traps are simply alternative revenue generation for localities. They’re incredibly popular in NY, which is the side effect they didn’t tell you about when they put in the property tax cap.

        • 0 avatar
          krhodes1

          Simple solution to this problem – in my state the town or city gets not a cent of the revenue from tickets. It all goes to the state. The state banned all automated traffic enforcement too, when a couple of towns started looking into it.

          And oddly enough, traffic enforcement is generally amazingly even handed here. We do pay up the wazzoo for excise tax on cars (the towns get that), but a small price to pay.

          As to the question at hand – I always flash. But the practice is just about extinct everywhere.

        • 0 avatar
          stuki

          “….is the side effect they didn’t tell you about when they put in the property tax cap. …”

          Like armed robbery is the side effect they didn’t tell you about when they put in the ban on burglary?

    • 0 avatar
      snakebit

      I often flash my high beams as a reminder during dusk and later that a car going in the other direction hasn’t yet switched on their headlights. To be honest, I can’t think of the last time I saw a speed trap, but I don’t need any peace officer deciding for themselves why I flashed my lights. They’re not mind readers. As for folks who do flash their lights to warn of speed traps, my view is that longterm, they’re getting cars to slow down, and if peace officers can’t start the process of collecting fines for courts, tough. The goal is to get motorists to drive safe. If they get flashed enough by others, I want to think they’ll see a pattern and drive slower. If you’re driving unsafely, and a peace officer driving in the same traffic observes you, shame on you. Be vigilant. I’ve seen unmarked Jeep Cherokee’s and lots of new Fusions with full tint and rear enforcement lamp modules in the back windshields on the interstate. Last weekend, I got behind a brand new Accord sedan with full tint. As we stopped to enter the highway, I could see light modules on the cars back shelf. They can be driving almost anything.

      • 0 avatar
        sproc

        This drives me nuts and is one of the best examples of the hypocrisy of most speed enforcement. If the priority truly was safety through deterrence of speeding instead of revenue collection, the police would be as visible as possible. I remember having a lot of respect for the NY State Police in the 90s, parking unmanned old Diplomats in full war paint in the median to slow people down.

      • 0 avatar
        Scoutdude

        I saw a speed trap this morning which I regularly do on that stretch of hwy, particularly the last couple of days of the month. Today I was running late for a meeting so I was lucky that I didn’t get popped. Of course I should know better because that particular unmarked Tahoe hangs out there way too often, like 3 or so days a week. On the other side of the road was a marked unit in they other place they use for speed traps.

        It is definitely a case of quotas that need to be met.

  • avatar
    scott25

    I feel like the only people I see who still flash their headlights for a cop are bikers. On a related note, when are people going to start getting pulled over for driving with their high beams on during the day? Since that seems to be a bigger and bigger problem every day.

    • 0 avatar
      DeeDub

      How do bikers flash their lights? Motorcycle headlights don’t have an off switch, and flipping from high to low beams is not very noticable.

      • 0 avatar
        bk_moto

        Many motorcycles these days have flash-to-pass and the change from low to high can be quite noticeable especially for those bikes that use dual H4 headlamps or those that use two separate lamps for low and high beam.

    • 0 avatar
      kmoney

      Do it all the time on the bike or to bikers when in my car. It also seems that bikers are the only ones that respond to it. Most of the cars I flash seem to just maintain their speed with no notice.

      • 0 avatar
        -Nate

        Experianced Motocyclists pay their helmets to warn of Cops Ahead .

        Giving out tickets for warning other Drivers to SLOW DOWN is bullshit pettiness , no way ’round that .

        -Nate

  • avatar
    slance66

    This is absolutely protected “speech”. I don’t even see how the government can assert any important interest in banning it. When flashed…what happens? Drivers slow down. Isn’t that the purpose? It reveals the real purpose for speed enforcement, collection of revenue.

    • 0 avatar
      Pig_Iron

      “One if by land, and two if by sea.”

      • 0 avatar
        Japanese Buick

        Funny you should mention that. This story proves that what’s old is new again, as over 20 (maybe 30, I’m getting old) Massachusetts got sued over this very issue and lost. And “One if by land, two if by sea” was cited as the precedent. Of course it was wrapped in lawyerly language like “using lights to warn of the presence of armed authorities “.

  • avatar
    psarhjinian

    “I also think that Generation Why has no idea what headlight flashing means and besides, who can text and flash their lights at the same time?”

    Yeah, yeah, we’ll get off your lawn.

  • avatar
    jaydez

    Does this mean I’m going to get arrested for flagging a speed trap on Waze too?

    And the only time I flash my lights is if a driver is coming up on a hazard on their side of the road the might not see like a disabled vehicle barely on the shoulder around a blind curve.

  • avatar
    smartascii

    Steve, have you tried pulling the multifunction stalk on your Mercedes? My 2012 goes into auto mode if you push the stalk away from you, but you can still flash the lights if you pull. I can’t imagine that there’s a German car out there without flash-to-pass readily accessible.

  • avatar
    JT

    Light-flashing is very common around here, ‘cept folks do it more to mean “heads-up ahead” than specifically a speed trap. The flash by a passing driver could mean anything from deer in the road to a fallen tree branch to a speed trap.
    It is becoming rarer and rarer to see folks doing it on multi-lane expressways and turnpikes though. I attribute that mostly to the fact that today’s half-alert drivers don’t even see the lurking PD cars even when they’re sitting in the median.

    • 0 avatar
      Egroeg1000

      This.
      I’m more interested in helping to keep other drivers safe than making sure someone doesn’t get a ticket, but if they both happen, great.
      I wish I felt that everyone had those same interests at heart.

  • avatar
    PrincipalDan

    Never had the flash for speed trap. Had a few bikers pat their helmets to give a heads up on a cop.

    • 0 avatar
      carguy67

      Had a biker give me a ‘downward pat;’ i.e. the sign to slow down, driving my Healey on Skyline Blvd. in San Mateo county (a famous local ‘raceway’). Sure enough, there was a CHP around a blind corner. I appreciated that.

      Have had the ‘headlight flash’ warning a few times. Always try to pass along the favor.

  • avatar
    tedward

    I flash every time I can. I actually got pulled over for this once just after a roadblock while I was in college. I told the state trooper that I would continue doing so under any conditions and he laughed and let me go.

  • avatar
    Astigmatism

    I always flash my lights to warn of speed traps, and wasn’t aware that the practice was considered endangered. As of now, the constitutional law aspect of this is pretty murky, but I’d be more than willing to be a test case for this to get appealed to the Supreme Court if the state wanted to take it that far. For a slightly more in-depth analysis, the Volokh Conspiracy blog on the Washington Post published a story back in February with the heading “Flashing headlights to warn drivers of a speed trap = constitutionally protected speech” (that’s a question, not a conclusion), which I’d link to if we were allowed to link, but Google will have to do here.

  • avatar
    Astigmatism

    Side note: that ACLU looks pretty good now, doesn’t it?

  • avatar
    raresleeper

    A few words from a fellow which lives just outside the “great” (lol) City of St. Louis:

    Here in Missouri, folks flash each other to warn of speed traps, parked patrol cars, et cetera, all the time. Maybe its just a Midwestern courtesy thing, but at 29 years old, I have picked up the practice myself. In fact, I sometimes get waves after flashing oncoming drivers, letting me know they appreciate the gesture.

    I personally believe getting a ticket for flashing another driver is a bit of a shot in the dark.

  • avatar
    RayH

    I flash to warn occasionally… I do it mostly in an attempt to slow people down if I saw deer or a dog (Ohio). I do a lot more “hit the brakes 3 times fast” for warning people behind me of a speed trap or deer or bicyclist.

  • avatar
    TurboX

    There are much better ways of getting/giving speed trap warnings – Waze is great for that and the cops have no way of telling who is warning who.

  • avatar
    Nick_515

    I still do it every day, on I-90 included, but especially on the two-lane roads where most of my driving happens in upstate new york.

    In my own personal languge: two flashes = cop. A flash and brief hazards = deer. A single flash = you’re driving without lights.

  • avatar
    Detroit-Iron

    I try to do it whenever possible, but I am very leery of interacting with the cops in my state so if I think they will see me then I won’t flash. I will say that I rarely get warned by other motorists. I probably flash 10+ times for every flash I get (I made myself laugh).

  • avatar
    cartunez

    I always warn my fellow motorists of the mobile tax collectors known as police.

  • avatar
    S1L1SC

    I mostly flash lights at the nitwits driving without headlights after dark or in the rain/fog.

    Most of the speed traps around here are in places where you should be going slow anyways, so those idiots doing 20+ over the 45 limit on a city street deserve the ticket.

  • avatar
    Pch101

    Just last night, I tried to warn another driver that his headlights were off. (I didn’t flash my brights, but turned my own lights on and off several times.)

    As usual, the effort failed. It almost never seems to work, which suggests to me that few drivers understand what it means.

    • 0 avatar
      bumpy ii

      I forget to turn my lights on sometimes. I grew up in places where dark was DARK, so more developed places with floodlight-grade street lamps spaced 50 feet apart don’t invoke my “use headlights to see at night” sense.

    • 0 avatar
      TMA1

      People in the DC area seem to have no idea what it means. In all the years I’ve been here, no one has ever turned on their lights after I’ve flashed them.

      I used to live in a walkable, downtown area of DC. If I was at an intersection or crossing the street on foot, I’d try to get the driver’s attention. Then I’d usually point at the headlights, trying to indicate they were off. About 1 in 10 people could figure out what I was getting at.

      • 0 avatar
        bill h.

        After almost 30 years in the DC area, I must agree. The number of truly clueless drivers around here is astounding. And 90+% of the time in my experience it’s people driving mainstream Japanese/Korean vehicles. Wouldn’t these cars all have Auto settings for their lights by now?

  • avatar
    Lie2me

    If you live where it’s legal buy a good radar detector and don’t just rely on flashers

  • avatar

    I still flash though not always. Always flash for animals or people on the road too. Two fingers pointed down = peolple. Four = animals, though in my part of the world animals are usually cows or horses. Truck drivers still get it and flash back in thanks. Most drivers don’t. Yes it seems this kind of communication is going the way of the dodo. Maybe when cars communicate on line it’ll make a comeback. Only way to get the young’uns to pay attention.

    • 0 avatar
      raresleeper

      I don’t flash for animals.

      In fact, I’ve had a lions share of bad experiences where the driver of the vehicle I am riding in would rather go careening out of their lane or out of the road altogether over a Goddamned cat (or the like).

      But no, I don’t go crossing lanes to hear the snap of turtle shells giving way, lol

      Sorry, but if your little tabby cat Missy decides to sprint across the street and its going to take a racing maneuver to avoid clipping the little domestic pussy, then all apologies… your animal won’t be coming home.

      But yes, I generally flash oncoming drivers to warn them of speed traps, a parked police cruiser, etc. It’s just a nice gesture. And really the chances of them pegging you with flashing someone are still pretty slim.

      • 0 avatar

        I really don’t move out of the way for smaller animals either, unless I can do it safely. Never hit a dog or cat though, though I have hit at least three birds.

        With larger animals, well if you can choose, it’s better to hit a cow than a horse (and I’m guessing a dear). The thinking is that the cow is heavier and if you hit it, it’s harder to topple over, so it’ll end up on your hood. A horse, well it seems to be easier to knoxk it over and being lighter the chance of it entering the cabin are higher. Or that is how the story tell it.

        Hope I never have to test it out!

        • 0 avatar
          raresleeper

          Oh yeah, even in “car versus deer” situations, the deer generally lose the fight but heavily damage the vehicle in the process.

          I knew a couple that hit a deer in their early 90’s Bonneville. The deer came up OVER the hood and made contact with them through the windshield.

          Yikes.

          I cannot ever imagine hitting a cow or a horse. Holy crap. I imagine you’d need more than a brush guard!

      • 0 avatar
        bk_moto

        The rule of thumb for motorcycles is “if you can eat it in one sitting then don’t swerve to avoid it.” Stand up on the pegs, hit the gas to unload the front and and just keep it upright (squirrels, dogs, cats).

        • 0 avatar
          raresleeper

          Just the other day I heard a pop. Looked in my rear view and I seen a little squirrel go sliding (as he was laying on his side) across my lane.

          Literally in the same exact spot, yet going the opposite direction, I ALMOST clipped another squirrel. He barely escaped.

          Suppose he just really wanted to join his cousin, but dam… it was easier than hunting squirrels with a shotgun!

  • avatar
    April

    Only a Police department whose main goal was to separate motorists from their money (and not public safety) would issue tickets to those warning others of a potential shake down.

    Which reminds me. There is a nearby community (with a population of 265) on a major highway with a Police force of at least two pursuit cars whose only purpose seems to be collecting fines from unsuspecting travelers. A local trucking company placed (on land they owned) an old 48 foot tractor trailer at each end of town with SPEED TRAP AHEAD painted in huge letters on the sides. Some how they were allowed to shame the local Police into better behavior.

  • avatar
    NoGoYo

    I only flash my lights at 4 way stops (at night, of course) when someone else in the intersection has the right of way but isn’t paying attention. Seems to work pretty well.

    I wouldn’t need to do that if more people around here followed 4 way procedure, though. First to the intersection goes first, it’s not hard.

  • avatar

    How is flashing your lights legally distinguishable from putting one of those green “slow down” statues on your lawn?

    • 0 avatar
      rudiger

      Depends. Is the statue out there only when a cop is nearby, or is it out 24/7? Someone constantly flashing their high-beams instead of only when a cop is around would be the analogy.

      With that said, in today’s US police state, there’s pretty much nothing that doesn’t qualify as ‘interfering with police’ and the only thing that determines whether you get cited or arrested is not the law but how tight a jurisdiction’s prosecutor and judge are with police and how likely it is for a majority of those cited to afford a lawyer to fight in court. You can damn well bet the cops aren’t pulling this sort of thing in areas with a high, per-capita income. Highways, OTOH, are great, particularly those with lots of out-of-state traffic.

      It’s a shame it now takes ACLU involvement to maintain even the most basic civil rights, but that’s how it is.

  • avatar
    EBimmer

    I still flash lights to warn of cops or road hazards. I also flash to signal a truck that he’s clear to change lanes after passing or to yield to another driver at a stop sign.

  • avatar
    Tim_Turbo

    I live in a somewhat rural area and still get the heads up flash once in awhile. I’ll give someone a heads up as well-but not all the time. Not to the dudes in bro trucks for example. Or to any guy wearing white framed sunglasses. Or crotch rockets.

  • avatar
    Hummer

    Still very common here to flash lights, I can’t remember going into a speed trap or license check unaware.

    Though I won’t flash someone for not having there lights on, I’ve always been told that will get you shot.

    BTW what is waze?
    Edit: NVM figured it out.
    Editx2: wish I’d known of this a long time ago.

  • avatar
    EAF

    Whenever prudent and/or necessary I communicate with other motorists. I would want other motorists to do the same for me.

    I also warn of upcoming speed traps unless you drive an Audi/VW. In this case, as far as I’m concerned, you deserve to be ticketed.

  • avatar
    Preludacris

    My take on speed traps around town is – you’re on your own. We’re all locals. If you drive fast and aren’t aware of your surroundings, you deserve a ticket. Thankfully I live in a town where it seems you do have to be driving dangerously or unusually fast to get a ticket. It is a safety service, not a revenue source. Here, nobody gets ticketed for 5 or 10 over unless it’s a school zone. Don’t be an idiot, and you’re going to be okay.

    A quick flash from me means I’m yielding to you at an intersection or letting you merge in ahead of me.

    Double flash or headlights off and back on repeatedly – I’m trying to communicate that you need to turn your lights on. I’ve learned that more than one try doesn’t make a difference. The alert get it right away, while those who don’t should be given a wide berth.

    An extended high beam to the face means your HIDs are aimed wrong.

    On visits to developing countries I’ve noticed that while their driving is less structured, drivers are often much better at communicating. It’s really dangerous how we (North Americans) only watch for brake lights and turn signals.

  • avatar
    Compaq Deskpro

    I’m surprised that you think this is an obsolete practice, I do this each and every time I go by a camping cop, and wave whenever anyone does it for me.

  • avatar
    APaGttH

    I thought the federal courts put this issue to bed earlier this year.

    Flashing your lights to warn of a speed trap is protected under the First Amendment.

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/02/05/federal-judge-rules-drivers-allowed-to-warn-other-motorists-speed-traps/

    I mean I guess Missouri could appeal to SCOTUS

    • 0 avatar
      rudiger

      I’m sure Missouri’s ignorance of the SCOTUS ruling doesn’t mean much to them. It falls into the category of ‘if you want to go the trouble of showing up for court with your SCOTUS ruling in hand, you’ll get it dismissed, but we’ve still made your life miserable for a bit’. And I’m sure they know, all too well, that there just isn’t a very high percentage of those cited that can spare the time and/or afford to go to court and will just pay the fine. So, in the long run, the police have won, either way.

      Until such time as the court system in this country decides to come down, hard, on highway police harassment and issuing citations for things they know they can’t, it will be business (i.e., revenue enhancement) as usual.

      • 0 avatar
        lon888

        I read on MSN last week that the SCOTUS ruled in February 2014 that flashing your lights was protected speech under the 1st Amendment. In my eyes, it has the same effect of issuing speeding tickets – reducing the speed of traffic. The cops are mad because it cuts out their profit – and they can’t make their quota.

  • avatar
    White Shadow

    Once I started driving cars with bi-xenon HIDs, I stopped flashing, simply because it’s not good for their longevity.

  • avatar
    Pikes

    In Ontario, the police have charged folks for flashing their headlights, as it is an offense for non-emergency vehicles to have “alternating” flashing high beam headlights.

    I don’t think the issue has ever gone to court. A few years ago, an automotive journalist was charged under the section at a really notorious local speed trap. He was prepared to defend himself, but the police officer didn’t show up, so the charge was dismissed.

    Using your headlights is one of the few ways to communicate with other drivers on the road, though sometimes it isn’t particularly clear what you are trying to say or being told(High beams on? OK to change lanes?). Still, I wouldn’t want this ability to be taken away.

  • avatar
    npaladin2000

    Again with the disappearing posts. PSA: disappearing posts lead to disappearing readers…

  • avatar

    If they can do all that, then they can start pulling people over who leave their brights on, or who install those cheap aftermarket HID headlamp assemblies that aren’t aimed properly and that blind other drivers onto their cars…

    • 0 avatar
      Scoutdude

      Umm they can do that already. The HID conversion kits are illegal in every state in the Union.

    • 0 avatar
      raresleeper

      There was once a time I would buy PIAA bulbs all the time (not HID obviously, but still…). I find the hyper white (or whatever you call them) to be very bright and I liked the nice color the bulbs produced, especially when paired up with them PIAA yellow foglight bulbs.

      But… I grew tired of changing them every 7 months. No more. No thank you.

  • avatar
    daiheadjai

    I flash my high beams to warn of speed traps, as well as let people know I’m yielding to let them in.

    And (if I’m really lucky) to tell the damned Civic/Corolla in the opposite lane know that their high beams are blinding everyone.

    Does anyone flash their fog lights? I wonder if that is safer (less likely to get caught by cops) but still visible to oncoming traffic?

  • avatar
    George B

    I sometimes flash lights for obvious speed traps like a motorcycle cop partly hidden. I rarely flash my lights for regular police cars not so obviously collecting revenue.

    Got pulled over by the Oklahoma Highway Patrol after Thanksgiving for driving 75 mph with a posted speed limit of 65 mph on US-69. Told me to slow down and gave me a warning ticket. If a local cop had caught me, I’m sure it would have cost me.

  • avatar
    CopperCountry

    I’d forgotten that people still do this (too much freeway driving, I guess.) But as I was taking an alternate route to work a few weeks ago, another driver flashed his brights as I was cresting a hill coming into town, and sure enough, sitting at the bottom of the hill was a city cop, waiting to nail ‘gravity speeders’ (you can’t help but pick up speed going down this hill.) I’m sure glad that that other driver risked a baton upside the head – or worse – to warn other drivers of the revenue collector.

  • avatar
    raresleeper

    I wonder if you can get a “Citation” (BA-dum-CHING) for honking at really sexy women?

    Pffft. I’m callin’ the ACLU.

  • avatar
    frank908

    I flash my lights a lot for opposite traffic motorists. Depends on the road I’m on. It’s highly satisfying at the very least.

  • avatar
    CopperCountry

    I had forgotten that people still did that (too much freeway driving, I guess) until I took an alternate route to work a few weeks ago. As I was cresting a hill, an oncoming driver flashed his brights and I instinctively hit the brakes to scrub off some speed. Sure enough, at the bottom of the hill was a revenuer waiting to collect my money from ‘gravity speeders’ (you can’t but pick up speed on this hill) and jack up my insurance rates.

    I’m glad that this driver risked a baton upside the head (or worse) to warn me. Over the last few days, the NYPD cops have got it right: if the politicians are going to make us [the police] risk imprisonment by forcing interactions with normally-law-abiding citizens to issue tickets for the stupid laws they enact (like selling loose cigarettes and meeting unspoken ticket quotas,) we’ll just ignore the infractions.

  • avatar
    Jeff S

    Some flash lights if their is an accident ahead or if a bridge or road are out. This law is ridiculous and should be challenged.

  • avatar
    gearhead77

    For an out of date practice, many here still practice it. I do it too.


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