By on November 18, 2014

Toyota Texas

As Toyota prepares to consolidate the majority of its U.S. operations into its new headquarters in Plano, Texas, it may end up retaining as little as 30 percent of its engineering, sales, finance and corporate workforce after the move as uncertainty takes hold.

Automotive News reports the automaker is doing all it can to hold onto as many of its employees as possible with the move to Texas drawing closer with every passing day, going as far as to offer a generous package to help employees remain with the company:

  • Lump-sum payment based on job level to those who follow Toyota into Plano, then remain on-board for two years after
  • Rentention bonuses based on salary/tenure for those who stay until their departments move to Plano
  • Full reimbursement of relocation costs for those in supervisory or management roles and above
  • Real estate assistance for those selling their homes to buy one in Texas

Though it has budgeted its package for 50 percent of its U.S. workforce — the figure proposed to help make for a smooth transition while avoiding the continuity issues Nissan faced in a similar move in 2006 — a source inside Toyota stated the company would be lucky to retain 30 percent:

They would be happy to have 50 percent. It’s hard to tell [how many people will go] because nobody has been offered their jobs yet.

Toyota plans to offer new job classifications beginning in January, with the goal of realigning most of its employees under one set of guidelines. The classifications will also affect benefits and bonuses, along with how a given job is conducted and administered. Since the announcement of those changes this past summer, however, morale and productivity have fallen amid the long wait, per another inside source.

Around 4,050 employees from California, New York and Kentucky are expected to make the move to Plano by 2017.

Get the latest TTAC e-Newsletter!

Recommended

115 Comments on “Toyota’s Texas Move Could Reduce US White-Collar Workforce 70 Percent...”


  • avatar
    tomLU86

    This is potentially great news….for Toyota’s competitors!

    Of course Toyota knew this would happen. On paper, it’s a good way to cut costs. In reality, many people are not going to be willing to leave their homes to live in hot, suburban sprawl. Hence, a “civil mass layoff”.

    Kind of ironic that Toyota would treat it’s professional US workforce like that, since the US is the biggest source of Toyota’s profits.

    But not surprising. If corporate America is greedy (and it is), beneath the smiles and kumbayah, the Asians are probably even worse. The difference–the American execs load up (aka Mullaly), whereas the Asian execs compensation is much more reasonable, and they “give” the savings back to the company.

    Still, who is to say? After all, Toyota’s CEO made less than $2 million and he runs the most profitable car company. The Americans make more at less profitable ventures.

    But I still think this will prove to be dumb move for Toyota and a small break for it’s competitors. And since current Toyota’s, less the Toyo-baru BRZ, are boring, that’s a good thing

  • avatar
    turf3

    I really really wish you had editors. The headline is completely non-congruent with the text. What the text says is that Toyota expect that realistically 30% of their current California employees will agree to move to Plano. They will hire replacements. (Yes, there will probably be some reduction in total head count, but NOT a 70% reduction.) Please use some care in writing accurate, non-inflammatory headlines.

  • avatar
    petezeiss

    I hate Toyota and I hate Texas and I hate new athletic shoes where the holes are too effing small to push the laces through.

  • avatar
    Roberto Esponja

    Attrition Management

    Hope whoever came up with this work philosophy dies/d a slow, painful death.

  • avatar
    Landcrusher

    Plano? If your going to move to Texas, just do it. Don’t go to a Dallas suburb where they merely play at being Texans. Even Austin is more Texas than Plano. If they had moved closer to their plant more people would have been willing to go. Might as well have gone to Springfield.

    • 0 avatar
      sproc

      Doubtful. If you’ve lived and worked your entire life in places that are NOT Texas and haven’t spent any time there, your perception of pretty much anywhere in Texas is probably about the same. I don’t mean this in a negative way, just that most employees without ties to the region are probably no less or more likely to relocate regardless of which city Toyota chose.

      • 0 avatar
        highdesertcat

        sproc, I agree. The California mindset doesn’t work anywhere in Texas. We saw this with the NUMMI employees who chose to move to San Antonio. Talk about having to make an attitude adjustment!

  • avatar
    28-Cars-Later

    Quite a brain drain.

  • avatar
    Dr. Kenneth Noisewater

    Seems like a good deal to me, have Toyota pay your way out of hightaxland, and even help ditch your boatanchor of a home… You’d be a fool to pass up lower costs of living and no income tax…

    • 0 avatar
      87 Morgan

      No kidding. I would think for most mid-level sales, engineering, and management this is a god send. You can move to an area and cut your cost of living in half. Perhaps even have a parent stay home with the lifttle ones. I get that Texas is not utopia but neither is CA when you break out the calculator and figure how much you have to make to break even. No one said you have live in Texas for the rest of their life…but your quality of life may improve a bit with some reduced financial stress.

      Further most of those people may come to find they like living in a $300k 3k sq ft house with a swimming pool VS an 1800 sq ft town home that costs 700k with the payment to go with it..

      • 0 avatar
        ellomdian

        You’re neglecting whatever mental defect kept them living in CA this long already. I cringe any time I hear someone talk about Quality of Life in CA; It’s a terrible place to live if you don’t have money, and if you do, why wouldn’t you live somewhere nicer?

        Toyota will move, most of their white-collar’s won’t, a good number of them won’t be immediately re-absorbed into the workplace, CA’s unemployment goes up, and anyone ‘willing’ to live in Plano for 4-5 years will likely be in a lucrative position.

        • 0 avatar
          akatsuki

          Because size of house isn’t everything. And anyone who would choose to live in Plano over LA is crazy.

          And, of course, being in LA was a huge draw for hiring. Nobody graduates out of a top program and says, “where I’d really like to live is Plano Texas”.

      • 0 avatar
        April

        Better yet relocate to Mississippi and cut your cost of living 90%.

        Never mind it’s Mississippi.

    • 0 avatar
      SCE to AUX

      Consider how bad the California business climate is to make Toyota go through this pain.

      It’s also why Tesla’s Gigafactory didn’t even consider CA as an option.

    • 0 avatar
      redav

      There are plenty of positives for Texas, and there are plenty of positives for CA. Which you find to be persuasive depends on what you value. It’s about culture–if you mesh with the CA culture, Texas won’t be a good fit, and you won’t be happy in the long run, regardless of the money Toyota throws at you.

      For myself, I value what Texas offers, and I would take the offer in a heartbeat.

      • 0 avatar
        highdesertcat

        redav, exactly! I was born in Huntington Beach, CA, and grew up there but would not want to live in that Barrio today for all the money in the world.

        And there are plenty in my family who still live in California today and wish they could leave but can’t because of commitments and roots.

    • 0 avatar
      mcs

      Go to Northern Texas for the tasty drinking water:

      http://www.cbsnews.com/news/toilet-to-tap-wastewater-recycling-begins-in-wichita-falls-texas/

    • 0 avatar
      Splorg McGillicuddy

      “Full reimbursement of relocation costs for those in supervisory or management roles and above”

      You’re overlooking that they’re only helping a % of the workforce move and the rest get a royal fuck you. Also, as a native Texan, I’m not moving back under the current political climate. For most, however, the move represents a pay cut, regardless of state taxes. What’s the incentive? It’s not like the majority of the workforce is getting any help in the move. This is a layoff and outsource effort.

  • avatar
    kosmo

    Very sad. Toyota may be the biggest (or not?) but it is certainly nowhere near the only major CA employer that eventually throws up its hands and says “I give up, we’re moving”.

    Or in the case of a small, super-cool, long time CA company like Clark Foam, just says “I’m closing”.

    • 0 avatar
      highdesertcat

      My former son-in-law’s employer threw up their hands several years ago, moved their headquarters to Texas and their production plants to Mexico.

      My former son-in-law, who was employed as a corporate attorney, is still on the California welfare rolls today, working pro-bono out of his mom’s house in Bel Air, helping illegal aliens prepare their case for their court appearance.

  • avatar
    DevilsRotary86

    Well, if they want to leave Toyota then this is good news for me as a young Electrical Engineer who would love to work in the automotive industry. I live within 10 miles of their new proposed location in Plano. I am not sure what engineering posts will move to Plano. At first I was lead to believe it would just be sales and marketing and that engineering would move to Michigan. Then I have heard that some engineering may move to Plano after all. I guess I just need to throw my resume into their system and see what happens.

    So 70% of their workforce doesn’t want to come to Texas? I am happy to take their seat.

    • 0 avatar
      highdesertcat

      In today’s economy there will always be more applicants than there will be jobs. I think this is great for employers who now get to pick and choose before hiring only the very best.

    • 0 avatar
      Splorg McGillicuddy

      They would have even worse luck moving them to Michigan than Texas. Not sure many would make that move regardless of housing assistance.

  • avatar
    Occam

    Could you imagine having $200K equity in your $600,000 house, moving to Texas, and suddenly realizing that you didn’t need a mortgage? And no longer pay state income tax?

    Californians and Texans have strange perceptions about each other. I’ve lived in both (and in Texas now)… they’re far more similar than they are different. Texas is California if it had enough water for a larger rural population. California is Texas in 20-30 years.

  • avatar
    Conslaw

    They will keep more people this year than they would have last year. Southern California property values have rebounded a great deal in the past year. Three years ago, over 40% would have likely been underwater on their homes. California is a non-judicial foreclosure state where in most cases the lender can’t chase you for a deficiency if you give up our home; however giving up your California home would impair your credit, keeping you from buying a home for at least two years. Texas isn’t known to be particularly renter-friendly.

    Overall, the bean counters may like this move, but it seems to be a real morale-killer as far as the California Toyota workers are concerned.

  • avatar
    J.Emerson

    This is amusing, since it’s pretty much a stake in the heart of the whole “California is dying” meme that’s so popular amongst the B&B. Who could have guessed that a bunch of highly trained white-collar workers wouldn’t leave their valuable homes, near the beach, in the middle of the most dynamic economy in the nation, for the hottest, flattest part of flyover country? Money talks and bullsh*t walks, indeed.

    I can already hear the muttering about “disloyal” Toyota employees from the feudalists who think career choice should be confined to people making seven figures a year.

  • avatar
    vikast

    A few comments:

    1. Plano is just a stopping point on the way to India, Philippines or Eastern Europe. When you can save 10% by moving to TX, why not save 70% and move to India. It is just a matter of time before several thousand Toyota USA / Toyota Financial jobs are moved overseas.

    2. I have lived in both TX and Southern California. TX can be a lower cost of living; however, most people that I know who have made the move between CA and TX tend to buy an equally expensive house to the one they had in CA. This might be due to capital gains taxes, getting into the right school district or just wanting neighbors with the same income level. As a result, they don’t wind up saving anywhere nearly as much as they thought. Granted, the house in TX will probably be much nicer and bigger than the house in CA.

    3. TX does not have a state income tax; however, they do have a high property tax rate. When I lived in TX, my property tax rate was nearly 4% (including Municipal Utility District assessments, etc.). There is no Proposition 13 in TX to limit property tax rate and value escalation, so assessed values tend to increase regardless of real appreciation. If someone moves from a $700k CA home to a $700k TX home, the property tax difference between the two states is nearly a wash for the income tax.

    4. People who transfer may want to kiss future pay raises goodbye, at least for a while. When I used to perform Merger integration work, the acquiring companies would offer employees the opportunity to move to lower cost locations (e.g., AZ, NC, TX) and not cut their pay. However, once an associate wound up in a lower cost location, they were better paid than their peers already living in low cost locations, so raises were hard to come by for people who moved.

    • 0 avatar
      Landcrusher

      First reply eaten.

      1.same reason you don’t drive a chevette

      2. Varies greatly on where in Texas, and low end housing is much more affordable here where you can still get a new, single family home for under 150.

      3. You fell for a scam. Never buy into a MUD. Normal is 2 to 2.5 effective rate.

      4. True. Something to be aware of for budgeting.

    • 0 avatar
      DevilsRotary86

      “most people that I know who have made the move between CA and TX tend to buy an equally expensive house to the one they had in CA.”

      “If someone moves from a $700k CA home to a $700k TX home, the property tax difference between the two states is nearly a wash for the income tax.”

      Or do what I did and buy a <1,600 sq ft. home for ~$100k in the North Dallas area. I do not, and will not understand why people want huge homes. I could buy 4,000 sq ft, but that's just 2400 extra sq feet that I have to keep clean.

      • 0 avatar
        vikast

        DevilsRotary86, you are absolutely correct. The key to having a lower cost of living in TX is self discipline. I was very happy in my 2k square foot house in a nice Houston suburb. However, others were very interested in getting into certain school districts or living with their social set. All I was saying, was that lower cost of living is not necessarily a “given”. Human nature may sometimes undo the opportunity to significantly reduce cos of living.

        • 0 avatar
          DevilsRotary86

          There is something to be said for looking and finding a town with a good school district. I do NOT fault any parent for avoiding the DISD like the plague for example. But you don’t have to live in some ultra exclusive neighborhood to get a good school district either. For Dallas, any of the Northern suburbs will do just fine. Richardson is great, Plano is great if you can overlook their screwy high schools, and Carrolton-Farmer’s Branch is pretty good too. Garland isn’t bad, but they do have a great open district policy. And that just scratches the surface.

    • 0 avatar
      Fred

      2. What a lot of my co-workers did was buy a bigger fancier house and then realised that paying to run 3 AC compressors cost a lot of money. Guess I was smart and used the oppurtunity to buy some acreage, which doesn’t cost a lot to maintain. Of course my weekends were spent mowing and trimming trees.

  • avatar
    APaGttH

    Ahhh yes, the meme about how “cheap” it is to live in near tax free Texas.

    Texas only has the third highest property tax rate in the country, more than double of that of California. Only New Hampshire and New Jersey have higher rates. Texas average combined sales tax (when factoring state, county, local) is state wide about 8.5% (some areas are higher, some are lower) which is one of the highest average rates in the country. Baseline sales tax is 6.25%. Never mind it being one of the most polluted states, with an illegal alien problem on par with California, and everyone seems to be quick to forget Texas invented, “No Child Left Behind.”

    Even Texans were scratching their head when GWB was running for POTUS and was pointing to his work on the great Texas schools (the same local head scratching happened in Massachusetts when Dukakis was running and the locals were going, “What Massachusetts miracle? The only miracle is the state hasn’t fallen into the Atlantic Ocean.”)

    Never mind the fire ants, tree roaches, copperheads. People who think Texas is so amazing have generally – never actually lived in Texas. People that think the west coast states are Hell on earth have, generally, never lived in one of the west coast states.

    Lived in Texas for 8 years. Due to pollution and the various allergens that thrive there my wife at the time had to do five trips to the ER. In the summer of ’98 we were told our only option was to move, or watch her get sicker with each passing year, or have her medicate herself into a zombie and still watch her get sicker every year.

    Yay, no income tax and “cheap” housing. The housing is cheap in part because Texas law makes it very difficult to write home equity lines of credit, and have very strong ownership rules. So prices never artificially rose. These laws go back to the earliest days of Texas and the Mexican revolution. Any benefits of “cheap” housing are at the minimum eaten away by the vastly higher property taxes.

    Another example, if you think Texas is so wonderful and your a champion of the second amendment, open carry is illegal in Texas for most people in most cases, and if you want a conceal carry permit those monsters force you to take a state mandated $140 safety course, and prove you can actually shoot a gun. You know, barriers to ownership and being able to carry your weapon.

    MONSTERS!

    Finally, if you think that Toyota is going to pay the California wage in Texas you’re delusional. I’ve never seen a company do relocations out of multiple areas to a new central office and not adjust wages. Those in California are taking a pay cut – those in Kentucky might get a small pay bump. They’re forced to.

    If you have person X from California and person Y from Kentucky doing the same job in the same department after the relocation, and person X is making more than person Y, and person Y is a woman, over 40, or a minority. Lawsuit.

    So far worse climate, tax structure is just shuffled around, only middling good schools, still crawling with illegal aliens, and going from a near insect free environment (literally) to the land of everything that crawls and bites and infests…ya…utopia that Texas.

    • 0 avatar
      Roader

      Texas’ state & local tax burden about four percent lower than CA:

      http://taxfoundation.org/sites/taxfoundation.org/files/docs/BURDENS%20MAP_0.png

      $4K/year on a $100K salary is a chunk of change.

      • 0 avatar
        APaGttH

        Ahhh. I knew someone would post this map!

        This is a percentage of state income. That’s a VERY important distinction – and you need to read the numerous disclaimers on this data on the site.

        State income includes business income and corporate taxes. The burden is 4% lower but not because if you make $100K you pay about 4% less in taxes as a citizen. It is because Texas business taxes are some of the lowest in the country (where California is the highest IIRC) so the data you’re showing is skewed with the business. The burden of direct and indirect taxes are rolled into the equation – and the lower corporate taxes don’t translate into say more income for the average person because corporations are making “more,” in Texas. Salaries are lower on average in Texas no matter how you slice it (but overall standard of living for the middle class is better – but the argument that Texas has low low taxes for the average citizen is a total red herring)

        The evidence provided in multiple links shows that California’s property tax is 32nd in the country (surprise) and is less than 1/2 of Texas’ 1.81%. Using your exact same source, Texas sales tax is 11th in the United States, California is 8th.

        http://taxfoundation.org/article/state-and-local-sales-tax-rates-2014

        Property, income, and sales and use tax are the taxes that consumers feel the most. Never mind how you get stuck with other taxes in Texas. The last time I rented a car in Houston at the airport, the taxes and fees were another 75% of the rental rate. Yup, those taxes sure are low in Texas.

        http://www.nbcnews.com/id/3081218/ns/travel-business_travel/t/car-renters-beware/#.VGuXGMnfV8E

        • 0 avatar
          Roader

          There’s gotta be a reason a quarter of a million Californians moved to Texas in the last ten years, bringing four billion dollars in aggregate income with them.

          • 0 avatar
            highdesertcat

            Roader, Not just to Texas. We are seeing a large influx of expat Californians in New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada and even Grand Junction, Colorado.

            These are the people who are cashing out of California and bring their new-found wealth with them, paying cash for homes, cars, trucks, motorcycles, boats, snowmobiles, etc.

            It’s all good for business.

          • 0 avatar
            petezeiss

            HDC,
            So does this mean middle-class whites are pulling up stakes and fleeing CA eastward as illegals swarm & crash social systems and infrastructure?

            I certainly get that. But why do they only flee as far as some other desert states with their own generous encumbrance of illegals?

          • 0 avatar
            highdesertcat

            petezeiss, I don’t know the motivation of the people who left California and moved into my area, but they did buy houses and other property from my wife’s real estate company and others.

            I do not believe that any of them HAD to work after they got here. Pretty sure all of them were recent retirees who cashed out of California.

            As far as the illegal aliens are concerned, New Mexico provides them with drivers licenses, bank accounts, whatever, allows them to buy and register cars and then hustles them eastward to the Blue States to find employment. There’s a network that helps these people along.

            It is rare for illegal aliens to find a job in New Mexico because New Mexico is the second poorest state, next to Mississippi, but along with Arizona, and West Texas, is pretty easy for illegals to sneak into. Jobs are pretty scarce in New Mexico.

            At my father-in-laws ranch, and other ranches in the area, there are illegals who actually live on them, help take care of the properties, but otherwise keep a very low profile. This is all part of that underground economy Democrats have honed to perfection. And New Mexico is a heavily Democrat state.

            I could write a book on the subject but it has nothing to do with cars or trucks.

          • 0 avatar
            petezeiss

            HDC,
            Oh, yeah, I remember you making that point before… that NM and others try to keep illegals flowing out of the region. We’ll likely end-up with more around the Great Lakes than your area has in 20 years.

            It sounds like quite the sophisticated and canny underground railroad has developed to rid your area of them to the detriment of at least formerly wealthier and definitely more deluded areas of the country that permit their long-term habitation.

            Given your geography, I can’t imagine a smarter solution for you.

          • 0 avatar
            highdesertcat

            petezeiss, it’s really not that sophisticated, nor is it hidden from view. It’s really all above board. The churches are all involved and so are hispanic-American groups with acronyms.

            The border patrol has check points set up on US54 and US70 to check for drugs and illegals. They do catch some but not many. But most illegals do not drive themselves.

            They are driven north by Coyotes to points in the desert from where they walk through the desert until they get well past the border patrol check point. And then get picked up again and transported further inland.

            The border patrol has sensors set up in the desert and trucks that patrol, as well as agents on horseback, but still many illegals manage to sneak through.

            Maybe the agents patrolling the desert look the other way — there’s always the humanitarian factor to consider. Many of the agents are hispanic or latino themselves. Many even put out gallon bottles of drinking water in the desert along known trails.

            Once the illegals get to a big city like Albuquerque or Santa Fe, they disappear into the populace. Hell, Las Cruces, NM, 45 miles from the border, is overrun with illegals at times.

            In San Ysidro, Ca, the illegals on occasions have run on foot against traffic on I-5 just to get inside the US and then disappear into the southern-most burbs of San Diego.

            Like I said, this, like a well, is a deep subject.

            All we in NM care about is to get the illegals out of the state and on to a Blue State where they can find their own nirvana at someone else’s expense.

            I have sold a ton of used cars to illegal aliens for top dollar and employ them whenever I need help as they pass through this area. They work cheap and are eager for work, even on a day-by-day basis.

            Thousands upon thousands of Mexicans cross the border at El Paso, TX and work in the US every day, and then go home at night in Mexico.

            So coming in to the US is not a problem. At night many wade across the Rio Grande and enter West Texas and New Mexico that way. At that point the Coyotes take over and smuggle them northward.

            Once they get to the latitude of I40, they’re home free. No more Border Patrol because it is no longer the border area.

          • 0 avatar
            highdesertcat

            petezeiss, it’s really not that sophisticated, nor is it hidden from view. It’s really all above board. The churches are all involved and so are hispanic-American groups with acronyms.

            The border patrol has check points set up on US54 and US70 to check for drugs and illegals. They do catch some but not many. But most illegals do not drive themselves.

          • 0 avatar
            highdesertcat

            They are driven north by Coyotes to points in the desert from where they walk through the desert until they get well past the border patrol check point. And then get picked up again and transported further inland.

            The border patrol has sensors set up in the desert and trucks that patrol, as well as agents on horseback, but still many illegals manage to sneak through.

          • 0 avatar
            highdesertcat

            Maybe the agents patrolling the desert look the other way — there’s always the humanitarian factor to cons1der. Many even put out gallon bottles of drinking water in the desert along known trails.

            Once the illegals get to a big city like Albuquerque or Santa Fe, they disappear into the populace. Hell, Las Cruces, 45 miles from the border, is overrun with illegals at times.

            In San Ys1dro, Ca, the illegals on occasions have run on foot against traffic on I-5 just to get ins1de the US and then disappear into the southern-most burbs of San Diego.

            Like I said, this, like a well, is a deep subject.

            All we in NM care about is to get the illegals out of the state and on to a Blue State where they can find their own nirvana.

            I have sold a ton of used cars to illegal aliens for top dollar and employ them whenever I need help as they pass through this area.

            Thousands upon thousands of Mexicans cross the border at El Paso, TX and work in the US every day, and then go home at night in Mexico.

            So coming in to the US is not a problem. At night many wade across the Rio Grande and enter West Texas and New Mexico that way. At that point the Coyotes take over and smuggle them northward.

            Once they get to the latitude of I40, they’re home free. No more Border Patrol because it is no longer the border area.

          • 0 avatar
            FreedMike

            “There’s gotta be a reason a quarter of a million Californians moved to Texas in the last ten years, bringing four billion dollars in aggregate income with them.”

            Yeah, it’s called “relocation”. People move in and out of states all the time here in the good old US of A.

            And the number one destination of Texans moving out of state? It’s California. Makes sense – those are the two most populous states.

            http://www.governing.com/gov-data/census/2010-census-state-migration-statistics.html

          • 0 avatar
            petezeiss

            HDC,

            Thanks for the run-down. I have to say, my little gingerbread northern brain is simply boggled at how routine exodus-scale breaches of our border have become.

            One of the properties an old employer managed was a private rich-kid dorm for parents back East who couldn’t place their kids in the better colleges.

            The higher the floor, the more costly the room and more spoiled the brat. The kids on the upper floors used to routinely bring up street hamsters for overnight flings that helped their rebel cred. Sometimes bad things happened and had to be hushed up. Saw a lot of fine clothes when the parents came to deal with it.

            The blue states remind me of those kids.

          • 0 avatar
            Roader

            FreedMike, the quarter million people/four billion dollar numbers are net. Add up all the people who moved from CA to TX over ten years and subtract all the people who moved from TX to CA over the same ten-year period and you end of with ~250,000 net positive for TX. Ditto for the four billion dollars that moved from CA to TX.

            And while TX was the biggest recipient people fleeing CA, it wasn’t the biggest recipient of aggregate income fleeing CA. Rather, it was Nevada, which netted $5.67 billion followed by Arizona netting $4.96 billion. Texas was in third place netting $4.07 billion with Oregon rounding up fourth place at $3.85 billion.

            http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/cr_71.htm#.VGy0354UdsE

            I have nothing against CA. I work there quite a bit. Wonderful weather along the coast. But expensive; way too expensive for this CO boy to consider moving to. My impression is that only very rich people can afford to live the normal dual income/2 kids/homeowner lifestyle along the coast, a lifestyle that is still achievable in much of the rest of the US.

          • 0 avatar
            highdesertcat

            petezeiss, my youngest son is a supervisory agent with the border patrol in SW Texas and the stories he has told me of ingenuity in border-crossing tactics and evasion is truly mind boggling.

            I am not at liberty to repeat what I have learned so as not to educate potential border jumpers.

            But one good thing has happened for NM. O* has decided to close the refugee camp at the FLETC in Artesia, NM, and move the hundreds of illegals housed there to Dilley, TX, where a facility is being builld to house and feed ~2400 illegals.

            And then there is the executive amnesty thing later this week/month/year. Looks like the better part of 25million illegals could be granted amnesty and work permits.

            It will be interesting to see what the Republicans will do about that. But since neither political party has a record of being able to govern, I believe the next two years will be more of the same, only the Democrats will now be the obstructionists, instead of the Republicans.

      • 0 avatar
        djoelt1

        I’m paying only $4000 per year to live, every day, in a place so awesome that the world takes its vacations here? So, for about $11 per day I’m on a permanent vacation?

        Sign me up!!

    • 0 avatar
      Landcrusher

      Wow, hate much? Where did you live?

      I have lived in Pleasonton, Ca. Great place. Insanely expensive if you aren’t poor or rich. Traffic was terrible and air quality was no better than most of Houston in spite of it being way out in the burbs. I could go on and on. Much of present wealth is a result of Texas real estate so I pretty much have to say you got a lot wrong there.

      • 0 avatar
        DevilsRotary86

        I didn’t see much hate, just the weather and allergies were causing his wife to get sick and they moved because of it. I see nothing wrong there, and I wish him the best. But yes, for me I love living in Texas. I love the weather even if Dallas does get a little too chilly in winter, good jobs, and a reasonable cost of living. But I know that it’s not for everyone I myself may move some day just to be somewhere else but I am in no rush to do so right now.

        • 0 avatar
          Landcrusher

          I could list the hate remarks, but it’s most of the post. I’m using the post PC meaning of hate. Every lie and exaggeration is just more hate. He got very little correct except the base sales tax.

          • 0 avatar
            APaGttH

            Really? REALLY?

            So you’re actually going to argue that Texas doesn’t have the third highest property tax rate in the country?

            REALLY?

            Here is this source:

            http://www.tax-rates.org/taxtables/property-tax-by-state

            And this source:

            http://taxes.about.com/od/statetaxes/a/property-taxes-best-and-worst-states.htm

            And this source, an interactive county by county map that will show average tax by county is higher in Texas’ urban centers than in California, despite vastly lower property values:

            http://money.cnn.com/interactive/real-estate/property-tax/?iid=EL

            How about No Child Left Behind? Was I lying about that? Gee here is a story from the Dallas Morning News that states clearly that NCLB was modeled after the Texas Accountability System, and nationalized by the Bush Administration. A system so flawed that Texas Republicans rebeled, and the state was the first to get a waiver off the national standard that was created – in Texas.

            http://educationblog.dallasnews.com/2008/07/who-thinks-nclb-stinks-texas-r.html/

            Texas doesn’t have fire ants, tree roaches and copperheads?

            Texas doesn’t require conceal carry classes – requires them – to get a permit? Really? Wow. Funny they have that information on the DPS website.

            https://www.txdps.state.tx.us/RSD/CHL/LicenseRegistration/InstOptInListUpdtMsg.pdf

            So please – explain, what did I get wrong?

            Lived in Texas for eight years – Houston area – much I did like – much I didn’t.

            I think you didn’t want to “respond” because you know that you’re full of crap and my facts above can easily be backed up.

          • 0 avatar
            Landcrusher

            Really, yes.

            1. No, I am not going to argue the property tax rate. I will point out its gotta be hate that makes you go postal over the property tax when you have both a property tax and an income tax and a sales tax and business taxes and people pay all of them. The more hidden a tax the more onerous it is, not the the other way round. Furthermore, the property tax burden is only 12th in the nation because property values are held down by the tax (not so much by finance laws which your state helped create into a bubble making boondoggle).

            2. You overstated the sales tax drastically. Most counties have little add over the 6.25 and 8.5 can’t be the average. Still, no income tax. Why tax labor? Its the only thing the poor have to tax.

            3. So, let’s take a bad policy proposed by a politician and blame his whole state for it? Hate. Have you ever noticed that Texans respect states rights? It doesn’t seem that’s the Cali way until it suits them. Otherwise, they vote to give the fed more power every time (at least when it suits them).

            4. Cali doesn’t have bad, scary things? Why even list them? Hate much? I don’t, even after the terrible way Cali has treated me and my family even though I only lived there for about nine months in the nineties. I feel no need to bash them in long posts except for when they try to spread their nonsense outside their borders.

            5. What’s wrong with a little regulation on concealed carry? The classes are not at all onerous, and you can carry without the permit under a lot of circumstances. What are the rules in Cali?

            6. Facts? Get over the facts man. Hate isn’t about facts, its about which facts, which lies, and how stated. You don’t have to lie to hate and spread bile, but those who do always want to hide behind facts, statistics, and generally held falsehoods as a defense for their hate spewing.

            I’m sorry things didn’t work out for you in Texas. Things didn’t work out for me in Cali. How about you just try to keep it more civil.

          • 0 avatar
            Landcrusher

            First reply eaten again. Here is a short but sweet version and I am done. Tired of this site.

            The bottom line is not that you told lies, but that you used selected facts to mislead. That’s just hateful. Ranting about how its all facts is just being jerky. I am not going to beat down Cali and sink to your level.

            1. Dwelling on our property tax is deceiving. Its actually true that we have only the 12th highest property tax burden (low values after all), and no income tax. Much lower taxes overall, and more transparent. Hiding taxes in prices by taxing businesses in hidden ways is just evil. Its a hidden sales tax.

            2. You overstate the sales taxes as do most web sites. Most counties have much lower rates. You choose where you live. Still, can’t find anyone claiming 8.5 average. Either you made that up or went looking for a biased source. Dat Hate, Man.

            3. Lived in Houston all my life. Pollution in most of town is not bad. Its very concentrated in a few areas which produce things the whole country needs, but which NIMBY’s make hard to produce elsewhere. Gotta be Hate’n to pick on us for helping you live a better life.

            Also, much of the so called pollution is naturally occurring ozone. Much more is brought in from Mexico by the wind. Green things and moisture come with allergies. Its just nature. Lot’s of Texas has near zero allergens, of course you would ignore that if you were a hater.

            4. Don’t know what your beef is about open carry, but I think you are just trying too hard on that one. Haters gotta hate. Concealed permits are a good thing, and reasonably regulated. You can carry if you have a need here, and its pretty transparent on what constitutes need. We use the actual definition of need here, btw.

            5. Our property laws are a double edged sword. You can now get home equity lines of credit rather easily though. It just took a longer time to get it passed, which is, IMO, a good thing. At the same time, we get a LOT of protections from our property laws. One of them is that EPA agents are now afraid of getting thrown in jail for trying to play hoodlum here.

            I could go on, but I typed all this and more already. I suggest you just stop trying to mess with Texas.

          • 0 avatar
            APaGttH

            @LandCruser

            Here you go for a source. How does the Center for Federal and State Tax Policy. A pretty conservative organization.

            Aggregate tax rate across all zip codes for the state of Texas – 8.13%. Base rate is 6.25% but there is a rat maze of special taxes added on top of that, county, municipal, special use, levy…

            Here is the tax table

            http://taxfoundation.org/article/state-and-local-sales-tax-rates-2013

            It is clickable and sortable, and the data and methodology is clearly explained. Maximum rate is 8.25% – Texas ranks 11th in the nation according in aggregate sales and use tax.

            Here is a great explanation about the silly sales tax structure in Texas

            http://www.taxrates.com/state-rates/Texas/?utm_content=1371806362&_bk=sales%20tax%20in%20texas&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=taxrates%20ZIP&utm_term=sales%20tax%20in%20texas

            But oh please – again – tell me how I lied?

          • 0 avatar
            Landcrusher

            I did not accuse you of lying outright, but if you check both your posts, you will see you first said 8.5 average and now found much lower “facts”. You have proven yourself wrong.

            Averaging by zip code is also odd. The rates are not set by zip code.

            You picked one thing to argue and proved my point on that one as well. Perhaps now you will realize you are posting from a bad place and let it go? I know lots of people unfairly pick on California, but I am not one of them. I try to stick to defending the things I can and arguing against ideas rather than places and people.

          • 0 avatar
            APaGttH

            @LandCrusher

            Averaging by Zip Code is not odd. It is an agreement made with online retailers for tax collection in those jurisdictions. There are a number of companies that create tax tables for the likes of Amazon et al for taxation and they base it on zip code – because the customer has to input their zip code at POS.

            It’s the easiest way to legally tax and make sure accurate revenue is collected, paid, and reported.

          • 0 avatar
            APaGttH

            @LandCrusher

            Also nice way to get pedantic on me. Texas remains whether at a peak of 8.5% or 8.14% the 11th highest sales tax state in the country. California remains 8th.

            Now if you’re going to toss out the, “property values are lower so on a percentage of total income property tax isn’t THAT bad in third place,” argument let me toss out, “because average salaries in Texas are much lower than in California, the sales tax burden per citizen is much higher taking a higher percentage of total income.”

            We can play pedantic games all day long but I didn’t misrepresent anything and you have yet to prove any core fact above as a “lie.”

            Texas still has the third highest property tax.

            Texas still has the 11th highest sales tax.

            Texas gave the United States NCLB, based upon the “accountability act” created by then the Governor Bush Administration as one of his first actions. A program that state Republicans fought to be the first in the country to get out of because NCLB doesn’t work. Funny how you haven’t touched that one.

            Compared to California, Texas is a sea of insects, snakes, and other pests that make living there – interesting. From the love bugs that will eat through the paint, the fire ants that will chew up your flesh, armadillos digging up around the foundations, copperheads, etc. etc. Hey, So Cal does have killer bees and cougars. Not the Hollywood cougars, the ones with fangs and claws.

            I base my statement of Texas crawling with illegal aliens because Texas government officials complain over and over and over again how the state is crawling with illegal aliens! Or are the government officials lying to the nation about the “problem” for political gain? You can’t have it both ways.

      • 0 avatar
        carlisimo

        I live 20 minutes from Pleasanton, and even we consider Pleasanton to be expensive and to suffer from terrible traffic!

        • 0 avatar
          Landcrusher

          I could have chosen to live in Fresno, and I should have. I had family in Oakland though. Pleasonton has a great town center with excellent restaurants. I looked at Tracy and Livermore, but at that time, you saved less than it was worth in lifestyle.

    • 0 avatar
      challenger2012

      All I live in Sugar Land, TX. My home is 2943 sqare feet, with a detached 2 car garage. My taxes for this year, on my home, were close to $7,300. School system is great, but to justify the cost, I doubt it. Housing is cheap, but cheap due to poor quality.

      • 0 avatar
        APaGttH

        Thank you. I lived in the same area. My property taxes on 1,600 sq ft, two car garage 1/2 acre in a very nice neighborhood was just under $4,000 a year.

        When we moved and we were house hunting in South Dakota I literally sat on the floor of the fifth house we looked at and wanted to cry I was so overwhelmed. For what we would sell our house for in Richmond we would barely have a down payment on something equivalent outside of Sioux City, Iowa – on the South Dakota side. That’s the downside to “cheap” real estate.

        Compared to my home in Texas, the properties in South Dakota built in the same period were built extremely well. They have to be. In Texas you need to worry mostly about heat and if you’re coastal winds to 110 MPH (standard was just being introduced when I moved, it may have changed). So in Houston, the building standards are pretty low. In South Dakota they have to build for -40 to +120, and sustained winds of 70 MPH, and a ton of snow on the roof, and a deep basement due to the frost line.

        Admittedly building standards in Texas are all over the place – Amarillo is going to have likely better built homes than Houston because the weather is more extreme.

      • 0 avatar
        Landcrusher

        Much of Sugar Land was rather cheaply built and sold cheaply as well. You can get what you pay for here. I have mostly bought homes built before 1960 and haven’t had many issues. Cali homes have similar issues, and I have never had such high bills while being so uncomfortable as I did in mid nineties Nor Cal. It was two record seasons, but they didn’t invest much in insulation.

        Denver had the best built homes of any place I ever lived. Newer builds are a mixed bag, but they seem to be better overall.

    • 0 avatar
      FreedMike

      Hear, hear, APaGttH.

      I underwrite mortgage loans every day from Texas, and the property taxes are ludicrous. But you’ll touch a nerve with conservatives because to them, Texas is the low-tax “success story.” Except that it’s not low tax – not to individuals, anyway. And the key to their success story is one industry: energy, which is booming right now. I’d say a 25-30% of people in Texas I underwrite loans for are employed by energy companies (especially in the Houston area). That’s great now, but as the late ’70s showed, energy can bust in a massive way. Folks who live in Texas know that. They’ve diversified a lot since then, but as energy goes, Texas will go.

      • 0 avatar
        Landcrusher

        The “not to individuals” line makes the whole statement false. Someone writes a check and pays for every tax. When a business pays a tax, that money is almost completely passed onto consumers and can actually cause even higher prices, monetary and other, than just the tax.

        • 0 avatar
          APaGttH

          Ahhh, but in Texas a small business can say, “I’m not paying workers compensation to my employees,” avoiding that pesky little expense also.

          The issue of corporate or B&O or business tax (or what every name it may go under) in each state is typically a non-issue for mom and pop operations. Most states have significant exemptions or rebates to those smaller business.

          It doesn’t change the fact no matter how you may stomp your foot and insist no no no no no no that compared to other states, on a percentage of tax burden, the good citizens of Texas pay far more on an individual basis than you realize.

          If tax breaks to big business are so good, why is it that will all of the jobs created in the southeast by manufacturing, the needle on poverty, health, infant mortality, education standards, and income equality hasn’t moved an inch.

          There isn’t “success” beyond jobs that may a middling wage that don’t really enable those citizens to be functioning members of the middle class. They pay just enough to keep them scared enough to behave.

          Of course with more pressure for lower costs we’re already seeing the foreign auto makers moving to Mexico – hard to compete with $3.65 an hour but hey, get rid of the minimum wage, repeal Obamacare, kill the unions and end corporate taxes and we too can become a developing nation Hellhole crawling with illegal activity that people turn to because crime pays the bills better.

          • 0 avatar
            Landcrusher

            Except that more than you realize isn’t true, or the issue. The issue is how much the state takes from the people to provide the things the people demand when they vote. Californians do not get a vote in Texas.

            You can keep making up stuff and wiggling around, but no the lack of income taxes and low business taxes is hard to overcome. You prefer the deal in California, which is great. Why do you need us to be more like you? Isn’t the choice best for both groups?

  • avatar
    DC Bruce

    Lived in Texas (Houston) a couple of years in the early 1970s. Californians can huff and puff all they want: cost of living is lower in Texas, partly because of tax structure, partly because of limited land use regulation which does not promote scarcity of residential real estate.

    That said, the weather in Texas is truly oppressive . . . this from a guy who grew up in Washington DC, which has nothing like southern California coastal weather. Basically, from May through September, you don’t want to be outside in Texas unless you’re up to your neck in water. It’s a little drier in DFW and Austin than in Houston, but it’s also a little hotter there.

    There are, of course, a million reasons why a California Toyota employee would not move to Texas having nothing to do with Texas. If the employee is married, his/her spouse may have a decent job in California that he/she doesn’t want to leave. There may be family ties, friends and so on. I gather the way Prop 13 works is that the taxable value of your residence is locked in as of the date of purchase, so if you’ve owned your home for a long time, your property taxes may be pretty reasonable.

    • 0 avatar
      APaGttH

      When I lived in Houston I would tell people we had four seasons.

      Spring, Summer, August, and Fall.

      August to me was “reverse winter.” Instead of running from heat source to heat source you ran from air conditioning source to air conditioning source.

      May was “Chamber of Commerce” weather in Houston – warm 80’s, lows in the 60’s and manageable humidity. Then the fist wave of love bugs shows up, the temps soar, and the party is over.

  • avatar
    April

    I’m sure there are more than a few legally married same-gendered couples who live in California are looking at a relocation to Texas with much trepidation. Same goes for any trans* folks.

    Second class citizenship is to be avoided (especially in a state like Texas).

    • 0 avatar
      darkwing

      By “second class” you must mean lacking the coercive power of the state according to the fashions of the moment. Yes, that must be a terrifying prospect, having to go back to being treated like the rest of us.

      Guess California will be retaining an extra dozen or so workers.

      • 0 avatar
        Splorg McGillicuddy

        All things in time – and not much time. Texas hasn’t been respectable since Ann Richards was accused of being a lesbian by Karl Rove in order to grease dipshit into office. As far as it being “fashionable” to respect the Constitution, you don’t get to get gung ho on the 2nd Amendment (which makes no mention of handguns or AR-15s) and then discount the 14th with its explicit support for equal protection. We either have a Constitution that binds and protects us – or we don’t. If that sounds off topic, it’s not — it’s exactly why it’s just as crazy to move to Texas right now as it is to move to a theocratic country. In the meantime, at least we transplanted Texans (living in California) can register Polaris Slingshots!

        • 0 avatar
          Landcrusher

          I know there was a time, decades ago, that gays in Texas (and some parts of California) had reasonable fear of persecution. It’s no longer so. You are just as likely to be persecuted for just about anything else nowadays. People get persecuted and bullied and it’s wrong.

          Implying that Texas is somehow like Iran does not move the ball forward.

          The current disagreements amount to sorting out who sits at the kid’s table. Everyone except a few kids who never got to sit at the adult table actually prefer the kid’s table so how about a little perspective?

          Our current local issue is the lesbian mayor fighting with a few powerful black ministers over benefits for unmarried partners and tax exempt churches getting involved in politics. How oppressed can these groups of people be? Most of my black and gay friends are about tired of their own so called leaders.

          • 0 avatar
            April

            Darn it with those uppity blacks and gays…

          • 0 avatar
            Lie2me

            “Implying that Texas is somehow like Iran does not move the ball forward. ”

            I disagree, having your dirty laundry front and center and subject to public ridicule does help to move the ball forward. How else would you know that you’re wrong? Apparently your conscious isn’t working

      • 0 avatar
        J.Emerson

        “having to go back to being treated like the rest of us”

        I’m not sure how having you marriage legally annulled, a right extended to pretty much everybody else, is “being treated like the rest of us.” Nor am I sure what it has to do with the “coercive power of the state,” because the last time I checked nobody has ever been compelled by government into a same-sex marriage.

        • 0 avatar
          FreedMike

          Shhhhh…he was doing so well with his rant…

        • 0 avatar
          darkwing

          Might I suggest first understanding the difference between “annulled” and “not recognized”? And then looking up Toyota USA’s domestic partnership policy to see what the practical impact, if any, would actually be. Otherwise you’re just repeating rhetorically unsound talking points.

          Honestly, I don’t understand how some people can’t help but see every issue in terms of how it will affect the privilege of some entitled upper middle class white people.

          • 0 avatar
            Splorg McGillicuddy

            http://gaywheels.com/2014/05/toyota-moves-to-texas-are-its-lgbt-employees-doomed-to-lose-benefits/

            Toyota fully supports same sex marriages and other benefits of their employees. It’s pretty mandatory for California. All I can say about it is that I’d love to see how straight people would react to being stripped of their marriage because they had the gall to cross a state line.

          • 0 avatar
            April

            Yeah right darkwing only rich white gay men are getting married.

            *roll eyes*

          • 0 avatar
            Pch101

            Reasonable people would define “coercion” as using the threat of force in order to take away freedom.

            In contrast, the hard right believes that coercion occurs when the federal government or the courts prevent states from oppressing minority groups.

            So the state’s inability to take away your freedom is bad because it’s not very nice for the state that likes to pass laws against you. That sounds awfully, er, statist, but don’t expect them to see the irony.

          • 0 avatar
            Lie2me

            “Yeah right darkwing only rich white gay men are getting married.”

            Rich white gay men get married all the time to retain their family fortunes, their jobs and their acting careers. Unfortunately they don’t get married to the people they want choosing instead to keep their wealth, status and/or fame

            To bad so many feel forced to make that choice

          • 0 avatar
            Landcrusher

            You guys should be hanging at Reddit.

        • 0 avatar
          April

          Shhh! Forcing straights to marry the same gender is listed as mandatory law #481 in The Gay Agenda Book.

          ;)

    • 0 avatar
      28-Cars-Later

      I saw this last night, rolled my eyes at the completely unrelated obvious trolling, and moved on. Let’s be grown ups, folks.

      • 0 avatar
        Lie2me

        Me too, but then my tongue started bleeding from biting it

      • 0 avatar
        April

        No trolling here. It is a very serious issue. Just because it does not affect you personally does not make it unimportant.

        • 0 avatar
          Lie2me

          Hold on, I’m on your side

        • 0 avatar
          Lie2me

          Hold on, I’m on your s*de

        • 0 avatar
          28-Cars-Later

          Such a comment is barely relevant to the article at hand, although in general yes a move to Texas could be disconcerting for such persons no matter what the circumstance, just as a devout Christian would have similar concerns relocating to California. The article itself in concise in explaining the incentive package for workers and noting Toyota could lose up to 70% of it’s workforce due to the move. If the article were more explicit referencing the type of Toyota’s workers or the concerns of those workers etc as you stipulate, I would agree with you.

          • 0 avatar
            Lie2me

            Maybe the issues you’re talking about aren’t laid out as such in this particular piece. Other articles I have read about the move address them as real concerns for some of Toyota’s employees affected by the move

          • 0 avatar
            April

            Not sure what you are getting at. A straight couple’s devout Christian’s marriage would not be invalidated if they moved to California.

          • 0 avatar
            Lie2me

            I think he means all that Kalifornication temptation. Devout Christians are real susceptible to that

          • 0 avatar
            28-Cars-Later

            Ok now I see your point, you’re saying something which is recognized in one state will not be recognized in another and thus those people are especially affected. Still not directly related to the article but I misunderstood your original statement hence my argument, so my bad.

          • 0 avatar
            Lie2me

            28, it’s a real concern for those affected

  • avatar
    petezeiss

    BLINDING LED BILLBOARD COMING SOON!

  • avatar
    turf3

    Well, if 70% of Toyota’s California workforce decide to quit rather than move to Texas, that just makes it more economical for Texans:

    When replenishing your supply of Californian-Be-Gone(R) you can opt for the convenient pocket-size 5 ounce aerosol rather than having to get the 5 gallon drum with pump sprayer.

  • avatar
    Landcrusher

    AGaPttH.
    This is getting out of hand.

    Zip Code – Okay, I see they used the available data, but that’s still strange because the rates are still not set by zip code. And yes, over 8.5 is a lot different than the skewed average of 8.14 which is by zip code rather than county where most of the counties are likely less than 8 or I suspect 7.5. What’s the rate in Cali? Where they ALSO HAVE A FRIGGING INCOME TAX?

    Pedantic – Yeah, I went that way instead of replying in kind with all sorts of hate. Forgive me, please.

    Sea of insects, et al. – Look. I have lived in Texas, near where you lived, for nearly 50 years and never have I witnessed any of the above. I have seen two venomous snakes outside the zoo in my life. One in Texas. I understand you had a bad time. Sorry. I prefer to worry about the problems created by people rather than nature because whining about the latter gets you no where. You moved, which was the proper response. Great. I moved from Cali. I can write a book on the bad experiences and guess what, THEY WERE MOSTLY FROM THE FRIGGING GOVERNMENT THERE. And, the reactions to that government which creates, among other things, a sea of old, polluting, unsafe cars driven by people trying to avoid the state imposed extra costs of a new one.

    Illegal Aliens – no one here is arguing about illegal aliens. Certainly not me, and I am certainly not trying to have anything both ways. The problems we have with illegal aliens are mostly the feds and some other government officials not following the laws and getting things done to reduce the illegal population. Especially the undesirable ones. Most of them are no trouble at all. My Dad once married one. I suspect you would have less an issue with them if less of your tax dollars was going to service them?

    Yes, Houston, where you have admitted you never lived, does not really have four seasons. Personally, I enjoyed the four seasons much more in CO and NY than in Cali where you really don’t have four real seasons in most of it either. Get off that horse right now. It ain’t taken you nowhere. It’s just a bunch of hate.

Read all comments

Back to TopLeave a Reply

You must be logged in to post a comment.

Recent Comments

  • slavuta: @FreedMike If you drive on the highway, there is little wear. Think about cycles. Especially in the winter....
  • golden2husky: Lie2Me – why feed this troll? If he really believes what he says, well…
  • Lie2me: Lou, I said that back when he was elected, he doesn’t take a salary because he doesn’t see...
  • Lie2me: Yep, those rich blue states that keep the country afloat
  • Lou_BC: “Oh wow, a multi billionaire has been in court” For multiple sexual offences… Other than...

New Car Research

Get a Free Dealer Quote

Who We Are

  • Matthew Guy
  • Timothy Cain
  • Adam Tonge
  • Bozi Tatarevic
  • Chris Tonn
  • Corey Lewis
  • Mark Baruth
  • Ronnie Schreiber